Agreed. I use WP9 (I hate what they did to WP12; it's too MS Word-like) and it does things I still haven't seen Word 2003 do (and that I doubt Word 2007 has added, either). That, and their file format, their professional tools (such as Table of Contents), and their editing tools (the best being Reveal Codes) are far superior to anything I've ever seen out of Office.
Re:The best tools stay out of the way...
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Goodbye Cruel Word
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Well stated. That's one problem with WP9; it's not ODF compatible, and after what Corel's done with WP12, I'm not about to see if the latest version is. That's why a word processor with the stability of WP5.1 and the features of WP9 is a pipe dream of mine. A friend of mine and I are thinking of developing a new word processor, but the idea's still in the very initial developmental stages (and I do mean very initial).
Re:The best tools stay out of the way...
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Goodbye Cruel Word
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· Score: 1
It was administrative cock-ups like that which kept me out of school during most of my 20s. That's probably the biggest reason I didn't lost sight of WP until WP9; after that, I got a tad bit complacent.
Re:The best tools stay out of the way...
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Goodbye Cruel Word
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· Score: 1
I won't argue about the stability (WP5.1 definitely has WP9 beat in that department), but WP9 does have several major advantages over WP5.1, the biggest being that it's true WYSIWYG; I almost never use print preview. What I'd really like to see is a word processor with the stability of WP5.1, the feature set of WP9, and the quality interface of both.
From what I've seen, Corel started ruining it after version 9, which I still use. It's mildly buggy (it crashes occasionally on startup (I'm not sure why, but restarting it never fails) or when trying to move/copy graphic objects that contain text fields, but rarely any other time), but it does the job well. My brother has WP12, and I installed it once, but went back to WP9 as soon as I could because it's too much like Word. I still can't see why anyone would want to write a novel in anything less capable.
Except for several later versions of WordPerfect (I use WordPerfect 9, and it does everything WordPerfect 5.1 did, in many cases better, and several additional useful things I haven't seen on anything else; I helped publish a book written in WP (possibly 5.1, but I'm not sure) using WP9) I completely agree with you. WordPerfect 9, in my opinion, was the apex, and I still use it on Windows XP (which I run on a VM on my Ubuntu box).
I totally agree. WordPerfect 9 (the version I still use, after almost eight year) still blows Word away. And another thing I really like is that WordPerfect file structure hasn't changed ever, and the basic file format hasn't changed since WordPerfect 6.
The reason WordPerfects file structure is better is because it's stream formated; codes that change the way the text is supposed to appear are inserted within the text, like on an HTML page.
Word (up until 2003; I have no desire to try and work out 2007) is "Object Oriented", meaning each character, word, sentence, paragraph, page, etc. can be treated as an individual object, but the way it's actually done is there's a text string up front, then all of the formatting codes after it.
WordPerfect's method is better because all you have to do when you edit the document is insert the new text/codes where it needs to go, whereas in Word, when you edit, you have to update pretty much everything for each letter/word/sentence/paragraph/page/etc. that you insert.
As for content, WordPerfect makes creating content easy and straightforward, something I've never seen in Word.
Re:The best tools stay out of the way...
on
Goodbye Cruel Word
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· Score: 1
Actually, WordPerfect is much better than Word. The interface has easy to use and highly customizable keyboard shortcuts, the Properties bar changes to match the context you're working in (ie, the table bar when you're working on tables, the graphic bar when you're working on graphics), Reveal Codes blows every other editing feature I've ever seen completely away, and there are other features in addition to these that no other word processor I've seen has ever had, like Center on Margin, Right Flush, and Indent. I've yet to see any evidence that Microsoft has caught up with WordPerfect in any of these respects (and I still use WordPerfect 9 (the 2000 version) because I don't like the direction Corel has been taking the product since).
Re:The best tools stay out of the way...
on
Goodbye Cruel Word
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· Score: 1
WordPerfect opens that blank slate right up front, then steps out of the way and lets you do what you want, and you can produce readable documents much easier with WordPerfect than with Word (I should know; I've used both, and Open Office, and I can't stand either Word or Open Office). In my use of Word, I've seen the program try to micromanage me to the point of complete frustration, as if it thinks it can determine what my objectives are simply by monitoring how I'm typing. WordPerfect almost never does any micromanaging; with very few exceptions, such as a few great features in the Spell Checker, WordPerfect never assumes it knows what I want it to do, and waits for me to decide. I've not used Office 2007, but from what I've read and heard, I would still find the interface horrible compared to WordPerfect's.
I agree. I've used Word a little, and Open Office, but I keep coming back to WordPerfect (version 9) because it's just plain better. The overall file format hasn't changed since WordPerfect 6 (they've added features, of course, but at least until WordPerfect 12, the program uses the exact same file structure, and the older versions simply translate codes they don't understand as "Unknown" or something, then ignore them. Better yet, it's true WYSIWYG (that's where the term originated, if I'm not mistaken), it's extremely customizable (I can add/remove keyboard/toolbar access to just about any feature (major or minor) easily), and there are editing features that I've never seen in any other word processor, such as Reveal Codes, Center on Margin, Right Flush, and Indent. I can't imagine writing a book, or anything else important for that matter, in Word.
Re:The best tools stay out of the way...
on
Goodbye Cruel Word
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· Score: 1
Is it anything like WordPerfect? I've stayed with WordPerfect 9 for nearly eight years now because the interface is simple, clean, and very customizable (I can change almost anything if I want/need to, and believe me, I have changed a great number of things). In my opinion, if it doesn't have something equivalent to Reveal Codes, then it isn't even a part of a match for WordPerfect.
Re:The best tools stay out of the way...
on
Goodbye Cruel Word
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· Score: 1
Very well stated. One of the reasons I still use WordPerfect (version 9, the 2000 version) is because it gives me total keyboard control for everything that is text based, and is almost 100% customizable, so I can assign any feature to any key combination. I'm both a visual and a verbal learner, so I learn to adapt to things in both ways, but I can't, for the life of me, figure out why anyone would design a dominantly text based application (like a word processor or a spreadsheet) to be primarily mouse driven. Graphic designers have no business designing either word processors or spreadsheets programs in my opinion (graphic features within those applications, definitely, but not the main interfaces).
Re:The best tools stay out of the way...
on
Goodbye Cruel Word
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· Score: 1
That's why I still use WordPerfect 9. The keyboard shortcuts are useful, and pretty much 100% customizable (any feature can be assigned to any key combination, standard features can be removed, two different keys can use the same feature, etc.). There's no need to go hunting all over hell for a commonly used feature; it's very literally at my fingertips, and if it isn't by default, I can put it there in an instant. That and the property bar stays in complete context with whatever it is I'm doing, so I don't have to open/close half a million tool bars to work on my document (yes, I am exaggerating, but I almost never open any tool bars).
Re:The best tools stay out of the way...
on
Goodbye Cruel Word
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· Score: 3, Insightful
When it comes to a good WYSIWYG word processor, I'd say WordPerfect is the top. I can't say whether or not it uses TeX, but it does give you access to all of the document codes (in reveal codes; true, it's a proprietary format, but at least they got it right).
I wasn't trying to argue whether or not it was factual; I could tell from the start that it wasn't. My argument was in agreement with you that the AC was trolling, and adding my opinion that it was something dredged up from the past. And while I may not have previously seen anything using those exact words, I have seen a number of similar posts, so I'm pretty sure it was dredged up; it may have even been modified somewhat.
I totally agree with you. And, in my opinion, the comment doesn't deserve a Troll, either. I think all too often, flamebait and troll mods are based on the moderators taking offense at what is being said, which isn't moderation, but censorship. The way I see it, flamebait is when the comments are deliberately inviting a counter argument with inflammatory argument, which this doesn't even come close to making, and a troll is when it's obvious the post was made to harass the majority of viewers.
He actually did fairly well in Iowa (at least with 1661 of 1781 precincts reporting), considering. Though in fifth place overall, he did get about 10% (11,232) of the overall Republican vote; of course, 10% isn't a lot, but it's not a particularly insignificant figure either.
When the trend is UPWARDS, I.E. when Linux is being used MORE than before, then why does it make sense to use the word 'killing'? Surely if the trend was downwards this would be sensible, but not the other way around?
What I don't get is why they're focusing on Apple vs. Linux. What would seem more telling, in my opinion, is the overall downward trend the Windows market appears to be starting to see.
If you noticed his specs, his "new" system isn't all that new. A G5 dual 2GHz? Does Apple even still sell those? A look at their website indicates otherwise. I'd say that if that really is his idea of a new machine, he's either exceedingly ignorant or stuck in the past. More than likely, this is flamebait dredged up from the past. I'd definitely agree with your trolling, and that the moderators have determined it is funny, I think the joke is on him.
No kidding. The GP was one of the few times I read a comment on/. and thought, 'WTF? Is this guy even in the industry?' I've heard the term crippleware so many times just in 2007, let alone the many, many times I heard it before then, I can't even imagine it not being in the technician's standard lexicon.
I've used WordPerfect since version 4.2. Once you understand the keyboard shortcuts, WordPerfect become much faster and easier to use than Word could ever be; some commonly used examples in the WordPerfect for Windows versions are F7 for indent, Shift+F7 for Center on Margin, and Alt+F7 for Right Flush (all of which are features Word has no direct equivalent to).
There are shortcuts for anything that is text related, and WordPerfect makes good use of all of the function keys. Furthermore, you can change the entire document's primary font, font size, and many other things, simply by putting the cursor at the head of the document and changing the font, font size, etc. Reveal Codes also gives you the ability to see exactly what is in the document, so if the text starts looking weird (i.e. not the way you want it to), you can see exactly what's causing the problem, and resolve it easily (you can even delete codes from Reveal Codes). Furthermore, WordPerfect hasn't changed document formats since WordPerfect 6 (unless they've changed them after WordPerfect 12, I haven't tried using anything after that). Earlier versions simply ignore any codes they don't understand, and mark them as unidentified (I think the code is actually "unknown") in Reveal Codes.
All of those features simplify the writing process extremely. I've used Word, and I find it horrendously "klunky"; one of the biggest examples I can give is Word's tables, which can be extremely frustrating, and I've found to be very finicky and useless in expanding, whereas in WordPerfect, I've never had any problems getting them to do exactly what I want (I can also use simply keyboard strokes to add and delete rows, and they work more like a true spreadsheet than Word's).
Another thing, which is why I refuse to use Word for anything major, is that Word tends to make decisions (assumptions) on what you're looking to do based on how you type, whereas WordPerfect almost never assumes to know what you're trying to do, and on the rare occasion that it does, you can easily tell it to stop (while that can be an aide to someone who doesn't know much about typing, it severely hinders authors).
I could go on, as there are hundreds of things that WordPerfect makes easier (I think the site http://www.wpvsword.com/ explains many of these very well), but I believe I've made my point.
They have used their monopoly status in the OS market to take over the Office market. No version of Word has ever been able to hold a candle to WordPerfect in terms of sheer word processing power. WordPerfect has always had excellent indexing, superb editing tools, and simple, but powerful document construction tools. When Microsoft first came out with Word, WordPerfect had all the market share, but lost it with a combination of few minor mistakes, and Microsoft's monopoly power.
I totally agree. The best word processor for writing and publishing a book is actually WordPerfect; I helped publish a book that was entirely written in WordPerfect, in WordPerfect 9 (the WordPerfect Office 2000 version). There are things Word does a little better, I'll admit, but when it comes to actual word processing power, WordPerfect blows Word completely away.
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Agreed. I use WP9 (I hate what they did to WP12; it's too MS Word-like) and it does things I still haven't seen Word 2003 do (and that I doubt Word 2007 has added, either). That, and their file format, their professional tools (such as Table of Contents), and their editing tools (the best being Reveal Codes) are far superior to anything I've ever seen out of Office.
Well stated. That's one problem with WP9; it's not ODF compatible, and after what Corel's done with WP12, I'm not about to see if the latest version is. That's why a word processor with the stability of WP5.1 and the features of WP9 is a pipe dream of mine. A friend of mine and I are thinking of developing a new word processor, but the idea's still in the very initial developmental stages (and I do mean very initial).
It was administrative cock-ups like that which kept me out of school during most of my 20s. That's probably the biggest reason I didn't lost sight of WP until WP9; after that, I got a tad bit complacent.
I won't argue about the stability (WP5.1 definitely has WP9 beat in that department), but WP9 does have several major advantages over WP5.1, the biggest being that it's true WYSIWYG; I almost never use print preview. What I'd really like to see is a word processor with the stability of WP5.1, the feature set of WP9, and the quality interface of both.
From what I've seen, Corel started ruining it after version 9, which I still use. It's mildly buggy (it crashes occasionally on startup (I'm not sure why, but restarting it never fails) or when trying to move/copy graphic objects that contain text fields, but rarely any other time), but it does the job well. My brother has WP12, and I installed it once, but went back to WP9 as soon as I could because it's too much like Word. I still can't see why anyone would want to write a novel in anything less capable.
Except for several later versions of WordPerfect (I use WordPerfect 9, and it does everything WordPerfect 5.1 did, in many cases better, and several additional useful things I haven't seen on anything else; I helped publish a book written in WP (possibly 5.1, but I'm not sure) using WP9) I completely agree with you. WordPerfect 9, in my opinion, was the apex, and I still use it on Windows XP (which I run on a VM on my Ubuntu box).
The reason WordPerfects file structure is better is because it's stream formated; codes that change the way the text is supposed to appear are inserted within the text, like on an HTML page.
Word (up until 2003; I have no desire to try and work out 2007) is "Object Oriented", meaning each character, word, sentence, paragraph, page, etc. can be treated as an individual object, but the way it's actually done is there's a text string up front, then all of the formatting codes after it.
WordPerfect's method is better because all you have to do when you edit the document is insert the new text/codes where it needs to go, whereas in Word, when you edit, you have to update pretty much everything for each letter/word/sentence/paragraph/page/etc. that you insert.
As for content, WordPerfect makes creating content easy and straightforward, something I've never seen in Word.
Actually, WordPerfect is much better than Word. The interface has easy to use and highly customizable keyboard shortcuts, the Properties bar changes to match the context you're working in (ie, the table bar when you're working on tables, the graphic bar when you're working on graphics), Reveal Codes blows every other editing feature I've ever seen completely away, and there are other features in addition to these that no other word processor I've seen has ever had, like Center on Margin, Right Flush, and Indent. I've yet to see any evidence that Microsoft has caught up with WordPerfect in any of these respects (and I still use WordPerfect 9 (the 2000 version) because I don't like the direction Corel has been taking the product since).
WordPerfect opens that blank slate right up front, then steps out of the way and lets you do what you want, and you can produce readable documents much easier with WordPerfect than with Word (I should know; I've used both, and Open Office, and I can't stand either Word or Open Office). In my use of Word, I've seen the program try to micromanage me to the point of complete frustration, as if it thinks it can determine what my objectives are simply by monitoring how I'm typing. WordPerfect almost never does any micromanaging; with very few exceptions, such as a few great features in the Spell Checker, WordPerfect never assumes it knows what I want it to do, and waits for me to decide. I've not used Office 2007, but from what I've read and heard, I would still find the interface horrible compared to WordPerfect's.
I agree. I've used Word a little, and Open Office, but I keep coming back to WordPerfect (version 9) because it's just plain better. The overall file format hasn't changed since WordPerfect 6 (they've added features, of course, but at least until WordPerfect 12, the program uses the exact same file structure, and the older versions simply translate codes they don't understand as "Unknown" or something, then ignore them. Better yet, it's true WYSIWYG (that's where the term originated, if I'm not mistaken), it's extremely customizable (I can add/remove keyboard/toolbar access to just about any feature (major or minor) easily), and there are editing features that I've never seen in any other word processor, such as Reveal Codes, Center on Margin, Right Flush, and Indent. I can't imagine writing a book, or anything else important for that matter, in Word.
Is it anything like WordPerfect? I've stayed with WordPerfect 9 for nearly eight years now because the interface is simple, clean, and very customizable (I can change almost anything if I want/need to, and believe me, I have changed a great number of things). In my opinion, if it doesn't have something equivalent to Reveal Codes, then it isn't even a part of a match for WordPerfect.
Very well stated. One of the reasons I still use WordPerfect (version 9, the 2000 version) is because it gives me total keyboard control for everything that is text based, and is almost 100% customizable, so I can assign any feature to any key combination. I'm both a visual and a verbal learner, so I learn to adapt to things in both ways, but I can't, for the life of me, figure out why anyone would design a dominantly text based application (like a word processor or a spreadsheet) to be primarily mouse driven. Graphic designers have no business designing either word processors or spreadsheets programs in my opinion (graphic features within those applications, definitely, but not the main interfaces).
That's why I still use WordPerfect 9. The keyboard shortcuts are useful, and pretty much 100% customizable (any feature can be assigned to any key combination, standard features can be removed, two different keys can use the same feature, etc.). There's no need to go hunting all over hell for a commonly used feature; it's very literally at my fingertips, and if it isn't by default, I can put it there in an instant. That and the property bar stays in complete context with whatever it is I'm doing, so I don't have to open/close half a million tool bars to work on my document (yes, I am exaggerating, but I almost never open any tool bars).
When it comes to a good WYSIWYG word processor, I'd say WordPerfect is the top. I can't say whether or not it uses TeX, but it does give you access to all of the document codes (in reveal codes; true, it's a proprietary format, but at least they got it right).
What I can't figure out is why you're getting so much nastiness from something that was such a clever joke.
I wasn't trying to argue whether or not it was factual; I could tell from the start that it wasn't. My argument was in agreement with you that the AC was trolling, and adding my opinion that it was something dredged up from the past. And while I may not have previously seen anything using those exact words, I have seen a number of similar posts, so I'm pretty sure it was dredged up; it may have even been modified somewhat.
I totally agree with you. And, in my opinion, the comment doesn't deserve a Troll, either. I think all too often, flamebait and troll mods are based on the moderators taking offense at what is being said, which isn't moderation, but censorship. The way I see it, flamebait is when the comments are deliberately inviting a counter argument with inflammatory argument, which this doesn't even come close to making, and a troll is when it's obvious the post was made to harass the majority of viewers.
He actually did fairly well in Iowa (at least with 1661 of 1781 precincts reporting), considering. Though in fifth place overall, he did get about 10% (11,232) of the overall Republican vote; of course, 10% isn't a lot, but it's not a particularly insignificant figure either.
If you noticed his specs, his "new" system isn't all that new. A G5 dual 2GHz? Does Apple even still sell those? A look at their website indicates otherwise. I'd say that if that really is his idea of a new machine, he's either exceedingly ignorant or stuck in the past. More than likely, this is flamebait dredged up from the past. I'd definitely agree with your trolling, and that the moderators have determined it is funny, I think the joke is on him.
1. Anyone they sued would be able to point to prior art.
And 2. Anyone they sued would be able to point to prior art.
Now I know that technically that is only one drawback, but I felt it was such an important one it was worth mentioning twice.
No kidding. The GP was one of the few times I read a comment on /. and thought, 'WTF? Is this guy even in the industry?' I've heard the term crippleware so many times just in 2007, let alone the many, many times I heard it before then, I can't even imagine it not being in the technician's standard lexicon.
There are shortcuts for anything that is text related, and WordPerfect makes good use of all of the function keys. Furthermore, you can change the entire document's primary font, font size, and many other things, simply by putting the cursor at the head of the document and changing the font, font size, etc. Reveal Codes also gives you the ability to see exactly what is in the document, so if the text starts looking weird (i.e. not the way you want it to), you can see exactly what's causing the problem, and resolve it easily (you can even delete codes from Reveal Codes). Furthermore, WordPerfect hasn't changed document formats since WordPerfect 6 (unless they've changed them after WordPerfect 12, I haven't tried using anything after that). Earlier versions simply ignore any codes they don't understand, and mark them as unidentified (I think the code is actually "unknown") in Reveal Codes.
All of those features simplify the writing process extremely. I've used Word, and I find it horrendously "klunky"; one of the biggest examples I can give is Word's tables, which can be extremely frustrating, and I've found to be very finicky and useless in expanding, whereas in WordPerfect, I've never had any problems getting them to do exactly what I want (I can also use simply keyboard strokes to add and delete rows, and they work more like a true spreadsheet than Word's).
Another thing, which is why I refuse to use Word for anything major, is that Word tends to make decisions (assumptions) on what you're looking to do based on how you type, whereas WordPerfect almost never assumes to know what you're trying to do, and on the rare occasion that it does, you can easily tell it to stop (while that can be an aide to someone who doesn't know much about typing, it severely hinders authors).
I could go on, as there are hundreds of things that WordPerfect makes easier (I think the site http://www.wpvsword.com/ explains many of these very well), but I believe I've made my point.
They have used their monopoly status in the OS market to take over the Office market. No version of Word has ever been able to hold a candle to WordPerfect in terms of sheer word processing power. WordPerfect has always had excellent indexing, superb editing tools, and simple, but powerful document construction tools. When Microsoft first came out with Word, WordPerfect had all the market share, but lost it with a combination of few minor mistakes, and Microsoft's monopoly power.
I totally agree. The best word processor for writing and publishing a book is actually WordPerfect; I helped publish a book that was entirely written in WordPerfect, in WordPerfect 9 (the WordPerfect Office 2000 version). There are things Word does a little better, I'll admit, but when it comes to actual word processing power, WordPerfect blows Word completely away.