I randomize my MAC daily but I didn't know the SSID could leak. It sucks because the SSID 'secret' is how my notebooks assosciate. Any links you can dig up? I use the standard stumbler stuff..
I'm not sure if you're joking or not... Have you ever used an IOS Aironet device? Cron, expect, ssh, and the IOS command "mac-address" have served me well. Hint: don't believe the documentation.
A MAC address is not now, and never will be, a unique device identifier. ESPECIALLY on my network.
The article says that they have the "unique ID" of my home network. This really disturbs me because, as I'm sure most of the rest of you have done, I have configured my network to prevent this. I run a Cisco aironet 1200 AP with 802.11i, AES encryption, as the only supported method, and my SSID is nondiscoverable until you've progressed through the encryption handshake. What is this "unique id" they managed to snarf? How did they break AES 256?
Then I contend you are not an average consumer, you're one of the 1% who actually use all the features of the MBP
I'm interested in the market research that came from.
Nah, I found the last one.
You haven't pointed at anything comparable to the MBP yet. )-:
I have a fun activity for you now, but it's a really simple one: try to find a Mac laptop with a 15" screen and a C2D for anywhere near the dv6000t's price. Those are the hardware specs I'm interested in.
As I've pointed out before, you can't compare desktop replacements to notebooks. But you make a good point - Mac models suffer from a startling lack of diversity. There's a real hole in their lineup for a 15" macbook model - and also in the subportable arena. I believe, actually, that their inability to support multiple configurations is what allows them to deliver so much hardware for so cheap: they bulk buy tons of the same part, and they don't have to spend the money to support lots of configurations.
I think we've reached agreement on this - you can't buy anything that competes part-for-part with a Mac for anywhere near as cheap as a Mac is, and you can also beat the Mac in price if you remove some of its features, i.e., buy a lesser computer. What I should say is that it's the cheapest hardware all part specs being equal, consistently and across the board. That's an easily provable statement.
Oh and FWIW, the thinkpads have a lighted keyboard too. They put an LED in the lid, which does the same job as the MBP's light for way less money. (-;
I think we've grossly miscommunicated here from the beginning. The items that got me into this coversation were people claiming that the MBP was basically a dongle for OSX, and overpriced, or (later on) a "luxury" notebook. Speaking as a pro photographer who bought the MBP as the cheapest available hardware, then wiped OSX off it, I felt like I had something to say here.
I am a pro photographer. When I show up at gigs, I'm carrying a tripod, a monopod, three camera bodies, and 18 pounds of lenses. Weight matters in everything I do. I spend over twice as much on carbon fiber tripods & monopods for their reduced weight. When I show up, my notebook's job is to run a series of RAW processing filters on the pictures I have taken. This is a mix of noise ninja, RAW converter, and a bunch of other photoshop CS2 stuff that I use, on the images, which are 10 megapixels, so in a typical shoot probably 12 gigabytes of data. I also use it to preview proofs for the client. Right now CS2 for OSX isn't optimized for intel or dual core, so I dual boot into XPSP2 (photoshop appliance) and Linux (for me).
So let's look at what I do with this thing, professionally. I carry it around, sometimes long distances. Then I use it to process 12 gigs of photo data (on my current 2.16 Ghz, this takes around 25 minutes right now). Then it burns a DVD for the client - so DVD burning speed is important. Is the 2.16Ghz important? Well, I'd have bought the 2.33 if it was in my budged, and yes the speed difference impacts me quite a bit. Both cores are completely maxed in the course of business.
So, if I'm using the MBP to the full extent of its capabilities to do my job, is it still a luxury notebook? No. And is 4.5 lbs a requirement? Well 2 lbs would be much better, but yes, that's very near the top end for me.
So let's look now at the dv6000t.
First, weight and size. The web site claims 6.6lbs for a comparably equipped version, but if you look at the spec sheet, that's still missing some of the options you need to get it near the MBP spec. Calling hp, 'cindy' was quite helpful telling me that my dv6000t with the Nvidia, dvd burner etc. would be 'closer to 7 pounds'. Ok. That's not a notebook, it's a desktop replacement. It's a completely different class of computer, a full %36 heavier, putting it into competition with other desktop replacments. It's surprising, considering it only gives up 15% to the MBP in cubic volume, that it's that dense.
Having ruled it out of competition by weight class alone, let's look at the rest of the gap:
Resolution: MBP: 1.3 megapixels (bad) HP:1 megapixel (heinous). As a pro I'd rather have the 1.6MP screen on the Lenovos, but out of my price range. )-: That said 1MP on a 15.4" screen is a setup for moire. Eek.
CPU: I need performance desperately, so the 2.0 would hurt a lot. I've noticed that most makes charge around $300 for the upgrade from 2.0 to 2.16. This probably makes little sense to you unless you have to deal with foot-tapping clients. Either way, it's not a comparable system.
On the student discount, while I don't know anyone who hasn't gotten a friend to edu-discount them their MBP, I guess it's possible it could happen. For me, a $1350 desktop replacement outclassed in nearly every feature category by my $1800 MBP. The MBP is more expensive - but not in the same class.
So, I will claim again that the MBP is the cheapest hardware available in its class. It is not a luxury item. I use it professionally, and I can't find any cheaper hardware to RUN WINDOWS ON to meet what my job demands of it. The only brands that came close were dell precision and the Thinkpad
Macs are only cheaper if you want exactly the features that they offer. If you don't need FireWire, or DVI, or a lighted keyboard, or a 2.16 GHz processor, then you can save hundreds of dollars by buying a competing model.
If you don't buy a notebook with those features, you're not buying a competing model - you're buying a lesser model. I took your advice and went to Dell, spec'd out the cheapest dell precision notebook I could with a 2.16Ghz processor and a gig of ram in it. I also went to shop.lenovo.com and put a gig of ram and a 2.16 Ghz chip in a thinkpad. The dell started at 2200, the thinkpad at 2500. You're right - they were both heavier than the macbook pro, lacked its graphics, lacked its built in camera, lacked the firewire and dvi, and all the nice stuff like magnetic tear-away power cords. BUT - they were both still more expensive than the MBP. And, they run windows, not OSX.
Did I mention the 2.16Ghz 1Gig of ram MBP is $1800 with the edu discount?
I am sorry that you feel the need to insult me. If you can spec out a comparable notebook at anywhere near the $1800 pricepoint, you'll be much closer to the beginnings of a valid argument. Remember: 4.5lbs, 2.16Ghz Core 2 Duo, 1440x850 widescreen, a gig of ram, 120 gig 5400rpm drive, dvd/cd burner at 8x, and the ATI X1600 or comparable, for $1800. Trust me, I just spent the last three weeks comparison shopping before buying the first Mac I've ever bought. I reformatted it with Linux yesterday, so I'm still messing with driver issues. But if you can show me a cheaper, hardware-comparable notebook, I'll return this sucker tomorrow.
You analogy is flawed. It's more like saying "the bmw m3 is the cheapest car in its class". However even then it's flawed, because you're accusing the MBP of being a luxury brand. Alienware sells a $5000 notebook - go take a look at it if you want to see what a luxury brand computer is. The MBP at $2000 is right at the midpoint of the 'technology professioal' notebook spec right now. And, MBP is the cheapest way to buy all the hardware that's in a MBP. There are plenty of brands that compete at that level of hardware: Lenovo Thinkpad, Dell XPS to name a few. And they're all WAY more expensive for the same hardware spec - not to mention, the MBP has them all beat in design.
Mac hardware is consistently cheaper than any hardware out there. Go to shop.lenovo.com and spec out a T60 with the same hardware as a macbook pro. It costs $2300! The macbook pro is 2000 - and the lenovo is heavier and doesn't have a good dvd drive OR the webcam.
Same with dell and compaq - putting the same hardware in a notebook computer as the macbook pro makes it more expensive than the mac. Same with the Mac pro - you can't spec a Dell with those specs without going 33% over the mac price.
Everyone says macs are expensive hardware, but it's not true. It's the cheapest hardware available, it's just high-end only.
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I randomize my MAC daily but I didn't know the SSID could leak. It sucks because the SSID 'secret' is how my notebooks assosciate. Any links you can dig up? I use the standard stumbler stuff..
I'm not sure if you're joking or not... Have you ever used an IOS Aironet device? Cron, expect, ssh, and the IOS command "mac-address" have served me well. Hint: don't believe the documentation.
A MAC address is not now, and never will be, a unique device identifier. ESPECIALLY on my network.
I just want to know how they cracked AES.
The article says that they have the "unique ID" of my home network. This really disturbs me because, as I'm sure most of the rest of you have done, I have configured my network to prevent this. I run a Cisco aironet 1200 AP with 802.11i, AES encryption, as the only supported method, and my SSID is nondiscoverable until you've progressed through the encryption handshake. What is this "unique id" they managed to snarf? How did they break AES 256?
I've gotta say that's a remarkable attack!
I'm interested in the market research that came from.
You haven't pointed at anything comparable to the MBP yet. )-:
As I've pointed out before, you can't compare desktop replacements to notebooks. But you make a good point - Mac models suffer from a startling lack of diversity. There's a real hole in their lineup for a 15" macbook model - and also in the subportable arena. I believe, actually, that their inability to support multiple configurations is what allows them to deliver so much hardware for so cheap: they bulk buy tons of the same part, and they don't have to spend the money to support lots of configurations.
I think we've reached agreement on this - you can't buy anything that competes part-for-part with a Mac for anywhere near as cheap as a Mac is, and you can also beat the Mac in price if you remove some of its features, i.e., buy a lesser computer. What I should say is that it's the cheapest hardware all part specs being equal, consistently and across the board. That's an easily provable statement.
Oh and FWIW, the thinkpads have a lighted keyboard too. They put an LED in the lid, which does the same job as the MBP's light for way less money. (-;
I think we've grossly miscommunicated here from the beginning. The items that got me into this coversation were people claiming that the MBP was basically a dongle for OSX, and overpriced, or (later on) a "luxury" notebook. Speaking as a pro photographer who bought the MBP as the cheapest available hardware, then wiped OSX off it, I felt like I had something to say here.
I am a pro photographer. When I show up at gigs, I'm carrying a tripod, a monopod, three camera bodies, and 18 pounds of lenses. Weight matters in everything I do. I spend over twice as much on carbon fiber tripods & monopods for their reduced weight. When I show up, my notebook's job is to run a series of RAW processing filters on the pictures I have taken. This is a mix of noise ninja, RAW converter, and a bunch of other photoshop CS2 stuff that I use, on the images, which are 10 megapixels, so in a typical shoot probably 12 gigabytes of data. I also use it to preview proofs for the client. Right now CS2 for OSX isn't optimized for intel or dual core, so I dual boot into XPSP2 (photoshop appliance) and Linux (for me).
So let's look at what I do with this thing, professionally. I carry it around, sometimes long distances. Then I use it to process 12 gigs of photo data (on my current 2.16 Ghz, this takes around 25 minutes right now). Then it burns a DVD for the client - so DVD burning speed is important. Is the 2.16Ghz important? Well, I'd have bought the 2.33 if it was in my budged, and yes the speed difference impacts me quite a bit. Both cores are completely maxed in the course of business.
So, if I'm using the MBP to the full extent of its capabilities to do my job, is it still a luxury notebook? No. And is 4.5 lbs a requirement? Well 2 lbs would be much better, but yes, that's very near the top end for me.
So let's look now at the dv6000t.
First, weight and size. The web site claims 6.6lbs for a comparably equipped version, but if you look at the spec sheet, that's still missing some of the options you need to get it near the MBP spec. Calling hp, 'cindy' was quite helpful telling me that my dv6000t with the Nvidia, dvd burner etc. would be 'closer to 7 pounds'. Ok. That's not a notebook, it's a desktop replacement. It's a completely different class of computer, a full %36 heavier, putting it into competition with other desktop replacments. It's surprising, considering it only gives up 15% to the MBP in cubic volume, that it's that dense.
Having ruled it out of competition by weight class alone, let's look at the rest of the gap:
Resolution: MBP: 1.3 megapixels (bad) HP:1 megapixel (heinous). As a pro I'd rather have the 1.6MP screen on the Lenovos, but out of my price range. )-: That said 1MP on a 15.4" screen is a setup for moire. Eek.
Video card: MBP smokes the Nvidia by nearly 50%
CPU: I need performance desperately, so the 2.0 would hurt a lot. I've noticed that most makes charge around $300 for the upgrade from 2.0 to 2.16. This probably makes little sense to you unless you have to deal with foot-tapping clients. Either way, it's not a comparable system.
Build quality: compare like to like: a b
On the student discount, while I don't know anyone who hasn't gotten a friend to edu-discount them their MBP, I guess it's possible it could happen. For me, a $1350 desktop replacement outclassed in nearly every feature category by my $1800 MBP. The MBP is more expensive - but not in the same class.
So, I will claim again that the MBP is the cheapest hardware available in its class. It is not a luxury item. I use it professionally, and I can't find any cheaper hardware to RUN WINDOWS ON to meet what my job demands of it. The only brands that came close were dell precision and the Thinkpad
If you don't buy a notebook with those features, you're not buying a competing model - you're buying a lesser model. I took your advice and went to Dell, spec'd out the cheapest dell precision notebook I could with a 2.16Ghz processor and a gig of ram in it. I also went to shop.lenovo.com and put a gig of ram and a 2.16 Ghz chip in a thinkpad. The dell started at 2200, the thinkpad at 2500. You're right - they were both heavier than the macbook pro, lacked its graphics, lacked its built in camera, lacked the firewire and dvi, and all the nice stuff like magnetic tear-away power cords. BUT - they were both still more expensive than the MBP. And, they run windows, not OSX.
Did I mention the 2.16Ghz 1Gig of ram MBP is $1800 with the edu discount?
I am sorry that you feel the need to insult me. If you can spec out a comparable notebook at anywhere near the $1800 pricepoint, you'll be much closer to the beginnings of a valid argument. Remember: 4.5lbs, 2.16Ghz Core 2 Duo, 1440x850 widescreen, a gig of ram, 120 gig 5400rpm drive, dvd/cd burner at 8x, and the ATI X1600 or comparable, for $1800. Trust me, I just spent the last three weeks comparison shopping before buying the first Mac I've ever bought. I reformatted it with Linux yesterday, so I'm still messing with driver issues. But if you can show me a cheaper, hardware-comparable notebook, I'll return this sucker tomorrow.
Links please!
You analogy is flawed. It's more like saying "the bmw m3 is the cheapest car in its class". However even then it's flawed, because you're accusing the MBP of being a luxury brand. Alienware sells a $5000 notebook - go take a look at it if you want to see what a luxury brand computer is. The MBP at $2000 is right at the midpoint of the 'technology professioal' notebook spec right now.
And, MBP is the cheapest way to buy all the hardware that's in a MBP. There are plenty of brands that compete at that level of hardware: Lenovo Thinkpad, Dell XPS to name a few. And they're all WAY more expensive for the same hardware spec - not to mention, the MBP has them all beat in design.
Macs are the cheapest hardware available.
Mac hardware is consistently cheaper than any hardware out there. Go to shop.lenovo.com and spec out a T60 with the same hardware as a macbook pro. It costs $2300! The macbook pro is 2000 - and the lenovo is heavier and doesn't have a good dvd drive OR the webcam.
Same with dell and compaq - putting the same hardware in a notebook computer as the macbook pro makes it more expensive than the mac. Same with the Mac pro - you can't spec a Dell with those specs without going 33% over the mac price.
Everyone says macs are expensive hardware, but it's not true. It's the cheapest hardware available, it's just high-end only.
Prove me wrong I dare you.
Novell is going into it with their eyes open. If it ends up that way, they have only themselves to blame.
Was I the only one who couldn't figure out how to start eating things?