I would like to turn on the time machine and take you back to 1970s American public elementary schools, just to show you that nothing is different about how many bullies are in schools and why they are bullies in the first place. The only difference is now they have cell phones and the Internet.
They would have to have support folks for the iPhone regardless of the carrier; those are fixed costs you have to bear.
Except as soon as someone calls in and says they have a hacked iPhone, Apple doesn't have to support them. That's kind of what this whole deal is about. It kind of proves my point, that to keep the iPhone support, r&d, and all related costs going, they need to get revenue from sales and AT&T contracts to do so.
Ok, that's more civil. Thank you. So basically we agree more than you think, because my initial point is that people are "hacking" iPhones to get a different carrier and you say they are hacking it to get ANY type of benefit from third party apps. My contention is that Apple isn't taking a stance against third party software, only attempts to unlock the phone to third party carriers. Even then, it isn't really a stance or a threat more than it is the reality that their upgrades simply can't/won't work if the iPhone isn't set up the way the upgrades are designed to work.
I see other terms used on slashdot for what you are talking about (jailbreaking) but "unlocking" seems to be used solely for the purpose of switching carriers.
So our disagreement boils down to the fact that you don't consider swapping a SIM as hardware manipulation, and I (perhaps mistakenly) do. Replace all instances of my use of "hardware" with "SIM" and I think we basically agree, dumbass aside.
Sorry for the double post, but I still can't find anything about unlocking an iPhone with software only. I'm not saying it isn't possible, in the light of your claim to the contrary, but I am saying that EVERY mention of unlocking the iPhone in this thread and a quick look on the Internet talks about physically swapping a SIM card, then using software to convert it over. You provided a link to the endgadget software, but I went there and there were no details. For all I can tell, it is the software interface needed to associate the new physical SIM card with the iPhone.
So yeah, I may be a dumbass, but at least I'm TRYING to follow up on your claims before I revert to your childish mannerisms. Call me a skeptic, but I generally don't take people's word for gospel when they oversimplify issues and call people a dumbass in the middle of a civil, logical conversation.
Wow. Nice people skills. Or, instead of your rampage/diatribe, you could, I don't know, actually have submitted the fact that people are indeed unlocking iPhones with software solutions as contrary evidence to my uninformed claim. You know that way, you could have informed me (and hundreds of others) AND be a helpful, supportive contributor to slashdot. I'm not the one that was being argumentative and went right for the dumbass moniker.
Really? You wanna ask us again what a brick is?
Nope. The others adequately clarified that for me, without feeling insecure enough to call me a dumbass for asking. Maybe you should give that a try some time instead of basking in your intellectual superiority.
No, R&D is an ongoing cost. It also has external costs too, just like every other aspect of every other business. I am willing to bet there are at least 20 external consulting contracts associated with all things iPhone. Apple has to pay these people to come in and do the work that Apple doesn't have the manpower to do on their own. Sometimes it just costs less to pay some other agency to do it for you.
Just because the collective gains of Apple as a business puts them in the black, doesn't mean they don't have to create a business model that at least partially recovers the costs of designing, developing, implementing and maintaining the iPhone. If they just left all the other division up to making enough money for the iPhone, then they would not have any money for the iPhone division. Cannibalizing from one department to cover another is never good business.
Nobody wants to tweak the electronics of the iPhone, you dumbass, they want to intall their own software on it.
Oh really now? So all these calls to free the iPhone from AT&T are pure fantasy? You can't unlock the iPhone with a software only solution. You have to physically hack your iPhone by opening it up and add/remove/alter electronic components to do so. You shouldn't be so quick with the "dumbass" moniker, because it is quite clear that the issue at hand is modifying the firmware and electronic components to free the iPhone from AT&T cellular service plans. One of the videos posted on YouTube actually require a soldering iron for cyrin' out loud. How is that NOT tweaking the electronics?
-1 for moderation? This is the ONLY post I've made in this thread that I actually DID moderate. Can someone make me a better slashdotter and point out why my post lacks moderation?
I don't know if you've written any software yourself, but the first rule about deploying patches to consumer software is that you are NOT allowed to make any assumptions about the state of the hardware or software.
This is why any and all software ever written works on every platform available? Of course you make assumptions about the state of the hardware and operating systems in play when you start ANY project. These assumptions are what make Apple products work so well. These assumptions are also what make Apple 5% of the computing market share.
Except that you are just GUESSING that Apple would say the warranty is void. I've had Apple honor warranties before EVEN after I voided the warranty in another area. Hell, I got a new motherboard on beige G3, even after I overclocked it and I removed the sticker covering the jumpers that said: "removing this voids your warranty". There was a flaw with the ethernet on my board, and Apple gave me a new motherboard (and bumped the CPU from 233 to 300 for me in the process. My 20+ years of Apple experience makes me feel safe that Apple general tries to do the right thing, as oppossed to what all the slashdot cynics suggest.
if you install a cold air intake, and then you suffer from a failure in the suspension or electrical system, there would be no grounds for refusal of warranty service because your modification could not reasonably shown to be at fault.
Ok this is the third incorrect analysis of a car analogy in this thread so far. If you install a cold air intake filter and improve horsepower by as little as 5hp, you have altered the state of the vehicle as compared to when the chasis and suspension where engineered and tested. An increase in horsepower equals a faster car, which changes the dynamics of the chasis. If you break a suspension part in spirited driving, the car company could easily, and rightfully claim you changed the characteristics of the car, and the suspension is NOT guaranteed to work with your modifications. I can't find a way to tie cold air intake into electrical systems, but I'm sure some crafty corporate lawyers have.
I would have posted the same thing as daveshroeder and I'm not an Apple employee, insider or fanboi. I am an intelligent person who can cut through the overt biases of the article summary.
Certain segments are frothing for several reasons: They are locked in to their own existing sucky phones and are really jealous of the iPhone. They can't stand the fact that Apple has another runaway hit consumer device because if this Apple thing gets rolling, all the hackers and tweaker dweebs of the world will eventually be locked out of their favorite past times. They love the 851 features of their Blackberries and couldn't imagine life with a CONSUMER (not business) phone that doesn't include a UPC bar code scanner. They don't like the fact that AT&T got their logo back on the #31 Chevy Cingular/AT&T car in NASCAR. They don't like the fact that Apple uses a glass surface that really doesn't scratch. They really love Outlook and can't survive with any other email service. They hate functionality. They can't stand the fact they can't walk around with that dweeby bluetooth ear thingy, trying to look cool while talking to their imaginary friends in public. They have general life issues in that they actually take time to make fun of somebody in a coffee shop using a MacBook or an iPhone to surf the web and feel the need to project their own insecurities about how smug or status-conscious that person is, when in reality, the person is just surfing the web.
Ok mod me down, but that sure was my best troll/rant this week!
Except Apple IS going about it the way you explain. They've even gone so far as to say they will never take proactive measures to make a hacked iPhone not work. All they are stating is that they can't promise your hacked iPhone will work with future updates.
And furthermore, if he believes his own logic, doesn't he mean to say the warranty would HAVE to cover the damage, since the parts are, *cough*, somehow NOT related? Stuff like this (and iPhone tweaking) is best left up to the engineers who designed and tested it. For those who want to play weekend engineer with a $400 iPhone and they screw it up...sucks to be them.
No, if the ABS has issues and he added a turbo he WOULDN'T be covered, because the ABS is tested and calibrated based on the horsepower output of the engine in it's stock configuration. If you add more horsepower to a car, it goes faster, and the brakes have to work harder to stop. This is why companies have the right to void warranties, because consumers fail to see the cause-and-effect consequences of their actions.
The problem with your car analogy is that car companies test brakes, tires, engine power, etc. and then choose legal and safe combinations based on those tests. If the consumer wants to mess up those equations and make their car unsafe, impractical, whatever, then the car company doesn't need to be liable for what happens. Any reasonable person would know that adding an aftermarket seat cover or stereo doesn't harm the engine, so laws like the one this article talks about are in place. But I fail to see how anyone could release liability from the consumer when they muck up the guts of the iPhone. If you add a gel-cover or a different set of headphones, yeah, Apple couldn't do anything to you, but you people want to tweak the electronics of the phone.
Note that this is pure profit for Apple; they have zero costs in receiving this revenue!
Not true. Apple will be dipping into the coffers to cover the initial and ongoing R&D expenses for the iPhone for years to come. Not to mention, they just opened a huge new section of the Austin campus to handle iPhone customer service and training. That staff of hundreds of people aren't making minimum wage either. One trainer job I applied for paid $75,000 per year, and there were three or four of them open still. Then there are all the administrative/accounting jobs required to manage the iPhone business department revenue, such as that coming from AT&T kickbacks. And probably 100 other costs that I can't think of at the moment. Consumers like to think everything is free, and companies are evil for requiring money to provide goods and services.
I'm sure there's a business term for the amount of money Apple is losing due to lost customers because of being locked into AT&T as well, so getting every penny out of using AT&T is probably a good tradeoff and business practice.
Apple isn't demanding that you not modify YOUR property. They are telling you IF you do modify YOUR property, it MIGHT not work correctly in the next upgrade cycles.
Well, I'm not the smartest person on the planet, but everything you say seems exactly 180 degrees off. It isn't a company's responsibility to ensure their product works outside of the realm of how that company created the product to work. It IS the consumer's responsibility to take responsibility for any problems they cause to their product with unapproved hacks.
Now if you'd like to bolster your claims to the contrary, why don't you actually post some relevant legal precedent for reference?
The bias is always found right in the slashdot contributor's "summary" of the article, and this article is no exception:
And, also, is Apple designing future software updates to do damage to iPhone when said SIM Unlock code is present?'"
Yeah, slightly cynical. And of course Apple PR has already spun (if you must maintain your bias) the fact that will not proactively make iPhones not work. HOWEVER, given the tight integration of the phone with iTunes, any reasonable customer would expect ANY deviation from that successful model to cause problems with the phone's functionality.
Consumers who want to jack up their iPhones by HACKING it, don't deserve consumer rights. As far as unlocking the sim card...caveat emptor. You should have known before you bought the phone that you get AT&T and that's it.
Slashdot Mirror
I would like to turn on the time machine and take you back to 1970s American public elementary schools, just to show you that nothing is different about how many bullies are in schools and why they are bullies in the first place. The only difference is now they have cell phones and the Internet.
Now THAT is the type of post that I would expect to get a -1. Thanks for the clarification.
I see other terms used on slashdot for what you are talking about (jailbreaking) but "unlocking" seems to be used solely for the purpose of switching carriers.
So our disagreement boils down to the fact that you don't consider swapping a SIM as hardware manipulation, and I (perhaps mistakenly) do. Replace all instances of my use of "hardware" with "SIM" and I think we basically agree, dumbass aside.
So yeah, I may be a dumbass, but at least I'm TRYING to follow up on your claims before I revert to your childish mannerisms. Call me a skeptic, but I generally don't take people's word for gospel when they oversimplify issues and call people a dumbass in the middle of a civil, logical conversation.
Just because the collective gains of Apple as a business puts them in the black, doesn't mean they don't have to create a business model that at least partially recovers the costs of designing, developing, implementing and maintaining the iPhone. If they just left all the other division up to making enough money for the iPhone, then they would not have any money for the iPhone division. Cannibalizing from one department to cover another is never good business.
-1 for moderation? This is the ONLY post I've made in this thread that I actually DID moderate. Can someone make me a better slashdotter and point out why my post lacks moderation?
Actually, I think it is more like a real estate agent telling you not to buy a house in THAT neighborhood, because something WILL happen to it.
Except that you are just GUESSING that Apple would say the warranty is void. I've had Apple honor warranties before EVEN after I voided the warranty in another area. Hell, I got a new motherboard on beige G3, even after I overclocked it and I removed the sticker covering the jumpers that said: "removing this voids your warranty". There was a flaw with the ethernet on my board, and Apple gave me a new motherboard (and bumped the CPU from 233 to 300 for me in the process. My 20+ years of Apple experience makes me feel safe that Apple general tries to do the right thing, as oppossed to what all the slashdot cynics suggest.
I would have posted the same thing as daveshroeder and I'm not an Apple employee, insider or fanboi. I am an intelligent person who can cut through the overt biases of the article summary.
Ok mod me down, but that sure was my best troll/rant this week!
Except Apple IS going about it the way you explain. They've even gone so far as to say they will never take proactive measures to make a hacked iPhone not work. All they are stating is that they can't promise your hacked iPhone will work with future updates.
And furthermore, if he believes his own logic, doesn't he mean to say the warranty would HAVE to cover the damage, since the parts are, *cough*, somehow NOT related? Stuff like this (and iPhone tweaking) is best left up to the engineers who designed and tested it. For those who want to play weekend engineer with a $400 iPhone and they screw it up...sucks to be them.
No, if the ABS has issues and he added a turbo he WOULDN'T be covered, because the ABS is tested and calibrated based on the horsepower output of the engine in it's stock configuration. If you add more horsepower to a car, it goes faster, and the brakes have to work harder to stop. This is why companies have the right to void warranties, because consumers fail to see the cause-and-effect consequences of their actions.
The problem with your car analogy is that car companies test brakes, tires, engine power, etc. and then choose legal and safe combinations based on those tests. If the consumer wants to mess up those equations and make their car unsafe, impractical, whatever, then the car company doesn't need to be liable for what happens. Any reasonable person would know that adding an aftermarket seat cover or stereo doesn't harm the engine, so laws like the one this article talks about are in place. But I fail to see how anyone could release liability from the consumer when they muck up the guts of the iPhone. If you add a gel-cover or a different set of headphones, yeah, Apple couldn't do anything to you, but you people want to tweak the electronics of the phone.
I'm sure there's a business term for the amount of money Apple is losing due to lost customers because of being locked into AT&T as well, so getting every penny out of using AT&T is probably a good tradeoff and business practice.
Apple isn't demanding that you not modify YOUR property. They are telling you IF you do modify YOUR property, it MIGHT not work correctly in the next upgrade cycles.
Now if you'd like to bolster your claims to the contrary, why don't you actually post some relevant legal precedent for reference?
What does getting "bricked" mean? I've seen it mentioned several times on this thread. Thanks.
Consumers who want to jack up their iPhones by HACKING it, don't deserve consumer rights. As far as unlocking the sim card...caveat emptor. You should have known before you bought the phone that you get AT&T and that's it.