I highly doubt the min FPS is 240, because that's what you need, or close to
In most applications (meaning non-gaming), you won't see any noticeable different between 60fps and 240fps. There is some benefit in competitive FPS beyond 60fps where your subconscious mind is able to see smaller movement on high resolution that helps you be able to react via muscle memory slightly more quickly. I suspect the benefit doesn't go much beyond 90fps. That's all marketing gimmicks.
In terms of benefit of very high refresh rates, it's only really in the case where the game itself renders very high FPS because the GPU/resolution is way over-powered for the game. You could turn up the resolution to try to get the game to better match the monitor's refresh rate to avoid screen tearing or you could turn on v-sync. V-sync can cause some stuttering depending on the game engine. Triple Buffering was supposed to help with that back in the day and now we have all these adaptive v-sync modes. This has been a problem FOREVER in PC gaming. To my knowledge, there isn't a silver bullet but for me v-sync works fine. I get high K/D ratio in FPS without needing these fancy, expensive high refresh rate monitors.
It's crazy to think we are talking about "Man my GPU renders too high a frame rate" and now we need a solution to that problem. Back in ye olden days we didn't even have 3D cards and everything was done in software rendering. Then we had cards like the 3DFX Voodoo2 and the Riva TNT2 and it didn't take much to throw graphics at them that would slow them to a crawl. You kids don't know how lucky you are that us older people solved problems that you now experience the benefits of and you still complain incessantly. smh
My question was, and remains, under what case a game really CAN'T DO WITHOUT a SINGLE high end CPU
You were already provided with a nearly immediate answer by someone else: Dwarf Fortress
Look dude, I've been building PC's for over 20 years and I've been reading hardware sites and bench-marking for as long. There are bottlenecks in just about every aspect of hardware depending on the situation: CPU, GPU, hard disk, memory, front side bus, north bridge controller, south bridge controller, L1/L2/L3 cache and the list goes on and on. There's multi-core vs. single core vs. dual core vs. quad core and each of these can by hyper threaded now. Memory is not as much of a concern as it used to be because memory controllers were moved out of the north bridge and onto the CPU die to have less distance for the information to travel over the PCB. The only way to have a serious conversation about any of these topics means that you need a basic understanding of the components of a computer and how each of them relates to performance in a wide variety of different scenarios. If you don't understand that and you don't have the experience and/or knowledge, we can't have a conversation about the topic. You need to go learn and come back.:) You're essentially taking an ignorant position on a topic you are not qualified to discuss. In some circles, many would call that a troll.
Try feeding the data required for a GTX 1080 with a Pentium 3. Ain't fucking happening.
Well obviously it "ain't fucking happening" because Pentium 3 motherboards didn't have PCI Express slots, they only had AGP and PCI slots. What I'm referring to are Intel/AMD motherboards that have PCI-e slots and more specifically, they need to be x16 slots for a graphics card like a GTX 1080. Otherwise, the bottleneck would be the PCI-e slot itself not being able to handle the throughput of the actual graphics card. In all of these scenarios, even your fictitious troll one, let's assume there was an AGP 8X to PCI-E adapter. The bottleneck there would be the adapter not the CPU. Seriously, if you're going to engage in a discussion where you obviously don't know the subject matter, remain silent and don't make yourself look like a complete fool to rest of us that do have the expertise even historic expertise in this subject matter domain. We will call you out on it.
That may be and you will get some benefit from switching to an asynchronous threading model with worker pools but if a game like that is bringing the computer to its knees on a single thread at high speed, the game is VERY CPU intensive in terms of the amount of calculations it's doing. Apparently, Dwarf Fortress also crashes from using several gigabytes of memory which is evidence of massive game state. It may be paging out to virtual memory at a certain point meaning that more system RAM may be beneficial because accessing virtual paged memory on disk (even SSD) is slower than accessing RAM. There are many factors to consider. Once upon a time, hardware sites like Toms, Anandtech, HardOCP, etc. used to review all hardware components and explain their impact on performance but I haven't seen that in a number of years but it's still applicable. RAM speed doesn't seem to be significant anymore now that memory controllers are on die. cas2 vs. cas3 used to make a huge difference.
240hz monitor and trying to get a steady 240fps. And boy do I mean steady. Even a blip between 240fps and 230fps can be perceived as microstutter, and that was with a gsync monitor. Gonna need a fast CPU to generate a frame in 1/240th of a second.
Wrong. Your frame rate is determined primarily by your GPU. The CPU component (for graphics rendering) is the API where the data goes from the CPU to the GPU. That is why we have DX12 and Vulkan, to get much closer to the metal. With games that are less demanding visually when you turn v-sync off with for example an i4790k Devils Canyon the frame rates goes way over 240fps even without Vulkan and DX12. So you see, there is no CPU bottleneck for graphics rendering. It's all GPU bound.
Which games require that much processing power purely for game logic? Can you give an actual example? Also, most game AIs are not trying to play at the best possible level, but to simulate a weak human to play against.
Oh gee can't be bothered to do a Google search because you would rather stick with confirmation bias. Here, I did it for you:
The only reason why many people need that 4Ghz to begin with is because of how bloated software has become.
You are completely WRONG. Games, multimedia encoding, 4K streaming, etc. People are asking for more CPU intensive applications. Office applications, email and so forth barely make a 4ghz machine break a sweat. And before you "All games happen on GPU" there have been huge advancements in AI, open world games and the like that have to keep track of massive amounts of game state to give you the impression that you're in an immersive world. Maybe you're okay with a Pentium 2 because you can barely get on slashdot and check your email every once in awhile but some of us use our computers for far more than that.
9 years old means, at least in the USA, 4th grade. By then a student has (supposedly) learned multiplication and long division. If you cannot explain the basic mechanics of an internal combustion engine, banking, or gravity to someone who "knows" how to multiply and divide, then congratulations, you're a shitty teacher and should just stop talking to people.
Judging by your immaturity in trolling slashdot like a moron, you must be in 4th grade or lower. Go fuck yourself.
In my opinion this is not even about being liberal as it is about the herd pressure among nerds to stand against absolutely anything Trump because he is seen as anti-intellectual.
That's just another form of elitist douchery. It's the pot calling the kettle black.
So what? You don't have to understand scientific notation to know that you can vaporize Klingons with anti-matter.
Nonsense! Whenever I post to slashdot with each HTTP GET and POST I envision in my mind the precise HTTP/1.1 messages going across the wire including the User Agent for my specific browser. I also envision slashdot's server side code (probably written in 1990's CGI script) processing all this information and reading and writing from flat files on some crusty old Solaris box because they optimized some of the code in assembler to be scalable. You really do need to know all that to use a site like slashdot otherwise you're just not doing it right.
Relativity, spacetime curvature, and mass-energy equivalence are not beyond a nine year old's ability to understand
I'd like to see you explain to a 9 year old what a tesseract is such that they actually understand it and can attempt to visualize it. How many slashdotters do you suppose struggle with that? I bet some don't even know what a tesseract is other than some mystical Nordic Mythology thing in Marvel's Avengers.
Correct. In order for someone to grasp the subject matter they need the knowledge foundation that his ideas were built upon. How would you explain the inner workings of the internal combustion engine to a 9 year old? You can't. How would you explain fractional reserve banking or the differences between Capitalism and Socialism to a 9 year old? You can't. What you can do however is gradually educate your kids on the foundation concepts that those higher level ideas are built upon which is supposed to be the job of the educational system. Eventually if you provide them with enough information they will make all the right neural connections in their brain and hopefully see the big picture.
That's because smart people (rational thinkers) realize office politics, drama and delusional thinking are wasted time and wasted time is wasted opportunity. They also know that trying to make an appeal to reason with people who do this as their default behavior is a waste of time and energy as well.
IQs in the general population are skewed above 100 because people with the low IQs either died earlier or are more likely to be institutionalized (either in long term care facilities or prisons).
Smart leaders tell you what's really going on not what you want to hear to make yourself feel good. In order to be competitive, you need good intelligence to formulate effective strategies. If all you want is people who tell you what you want to hear regardless of reality then you will ultimately fail because you won't be making decisions based on what is actually going on in your company and in your market.
It feels good for awhile with all the "yes people" and positive vibes then the money runs out, the doors close and it's time to find a new pasture to do it all over again
Trump won on a vision of an America advancing by removing the fetters of government.
Contrast that with Obama, who won on the premise that he would effect vengeance on those who were prejudiced.
And of course because you're not evangelizing liberal ideology which seems to be the majority on slashdot here, you get modded Flamebait even though there is nothing remotely flamebait about your comment. Fuck liberal censorship is what I have to say to that.
You're suggesting people ought to vote on things not because of the merits of what they're voting on but out of vindictive spite.
That's how Trump ended up president.
It's also how Obama ended being president as well. I swear you liberals think you're all high and mighty on the moral high ground. What a joke. That's why no one takes you seriously because you're a bunch of pompous, arrogant, narcissists living in a delusional world that has infinite money.
This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. You're suggesting people ought to vote on things not because of the merits of what they're voting on but out of vindictive spite. And you wonder why there is so much vitriol in politics. Your mindset is part of the problem.
...only surpassed by the naiveté of acting like the entire Republican caucus hasn't been doing exactly this already since 2008. If they're gonna be like this, perhaps they can use it for GOOD for once.
Really? This is exclusively the behavior of the Republican party and the Democrats are somehow saints? Both parties are crap for different reasons. The whole system is broke because of that. Both of them want to bankrupt the country, they just want to do it in different ways.
China knows the problem they have and politically is heading in the correct direction whereas trump is not.
The data doesn't support your argument if you ACTUALLY look at it. Our energy consumption trends are levelling off and going down over the past 20 years. China's has consistently gone up. And this is not about Trump you idiot. We're are talking the past TWENTY YEARS. That would be Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama and now Trump. Take your Trump hating shit elsewhere moron.
That's fine but it doesn't change the fact that China consumes the most energy in the world and they are increasing their consumption. I don't care about propaganda. I care about actual data and statistics, you know facts? When the energy consumption trend levels off or starts going lower, China will be doing something productive. Until then, they are consuming more than the United States and have a consistent trend of energy consumption. In terms of all issues related to energy consumption, China is absolutely the worst offender and they need to do better.
No 'ought' at all. That's the way it works right now in the GOP; vote Trump, unless you have nothing to lose and are pissed that he's destroying the party.
What's your solution? More complaining and whining? As I said, you're part of the problem. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution. You offered nothing constructive therefore, you are part of the problem.
They don't need a moderate Republican. Given the current state of the involved politics, what they need is a pissed off Republican who isn't interested in continuing in public service and who will vote to hurt Trump
This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. You're suggesting people ought to vote on things not because of the merits of what they're voting on but out of vindictive spite. And you wonder why there is so much vitriol in politics. Your mindset is part of the problem.
Slashdot Mirror
I highly doubt the min FPS is 240, because that's what you need, or close to
In most applications (meaning non-gaming), you won't see any noticeable different between 60fps and 240fps. There is some benefit in competitive FPS beyond 60fps where your subconscious mind is able to see smaller movement on high resolution that helps you be able to react via muscle memory slightly more quickly. I suspect the benefit doesn't go much beyond 90fps. That's all marketing gimmicks.
In terms of benefit of very high refresh rates, it's only really in the case where the game itself renders very high FPS because the GPU/resolution is way over-powered for the game. You could turn up the resolution to try to get the game to better match the monitor's refresh rate to avoid screen tearing or you could turn on v-sync. V-sync can cause some stuttering depending on the game engine. Triple Buffering was supposed to help with that back in the day and now we have all these adaptive v-sync modes. This has been a problem FOREVER in PC gaming. To my knowledge, there isn't a silver bullet but for me v-sync works fine. I get high K/D ratio in FPS without needing these fancy, expensive high refresh rate monitors.
It's crazy to think we are talking about "Man my GPU renders too high a frame rate" and now we need a solution to that problem. Back in ye olden days we didn't even have 3D cards and everything was done in software rendering. Then we had cards like the 3DFX Voodoo2 and the Riva TNT2 and it didn't take much to throw graphics at them that would slow them to a crawl. You kids don't know how lucky you are that us older people solved problems that you now experience the benefits of and you still complain incessantly. smh
My question was, and remains, under what case a game really CAN'T DO WITHOUT a SINGLE high end CPU
You were already provided with a nearly immediate answer by someone else: Dwarf Fortress
:) You're essentially taking an ignorant position on a topic you are not qualified to discuss. In some circles, many would call that a troll.
Look dude, I've been building PC's for over 20 years and I've been reading hardware sites and bench-marking for as long. There are bottlenecks in just about every aspect of hardware depending on the situation: CPU, GPU, hard disk, memory, front side bus, north bridge controller, south bridge controller, L1/L2/L3 cache and the list goes on and on. There's multi-core vs. single core vs. dual core vs. quad core and each of these can by hyper threaded now. Memory is not as much of a concern as it used to be because memory controllers were moved out of the north bridge and onto the CPU die to have less distance for the information to travel over the PCB. The only way to have a serious conversation about any of these topics means that you need a basic understanding of the components of a computer and how each of them relates to performance in a wide variety of different scenarios. If you don't understand that and you don't have the experience and/or knowledge, we can't have a conversation about the topic. You need to go learn and come back.
Try feeding the data required for a GTX 1080 with a Pentium 3. Ain't fucking happening.
Well obviously it "ain't fucking happening" because Pentium 3 motherboards didn't have PCI Express slots, they only had AGP and PCI slots. What I'm referring to are Intel/AMD motherboards that have PCI-e slots and more specifically, they need to be x16 slots for a graphics card like a GTX 1080. Otherwise, the bottleneck would be the PCI-e slot itself not being able to handle the throughput of the actual graphics card. In all of these scenarios, even your fictitious troll one, let's assume there was an AGP 8X to PCI-E adapter. The bottleneck there would be the adapter not the CPU. Seriously, if you're going to engage in a discussion where you obviously don't know the subject matter, remain silent and don't make yourself look like a complete fool to rest of us that do have the expertise even historic expertise in this subject matter domain. We will call you out on it.
That may be and you will get some benefit from switching to an asynchronous threading model with worker pools but if a game like that is bringing the computer to its knees on a single thread at high speed, the game is VERY CPU intensive in terms of the amount of calculations it's doing. Apparently, Dwarf Fortress also crashes from using several gigabytes of memory which is evidence of massive game state. It may be paging out to virtual memory at a certain point meaning that more system RAM may be beneficial because accessing virtual paged memory on disk (even SSD) is slower than accessing RAM. There are many factors to consider. Once upon a time, hardware sites like Toms, Anandtech, HardOCP, etc. used to review all hardware components and explain their impact on performance but I haven't seen that in a number of years but it's still applicable. RAM speed doesn't seem to be significant anymore now that memory controllers are on die. cas2 vs. cas3 used to make a huge difference.
240hz monitor and trying to get a steady 240fps. And boy do I mean steady. Even a blip between 240fps and 230fps can be perceived as microstutter, and that was with a gsync monitor. Gonna need a fast CPU to generate a frame in 1/240th of a second.
Wrong. Your frame rate is determined primarily by your GPU. The CPU component (for graphics rendering) is the API where the data goes from the CPU to the GPU. That is why we have DX12 and Vulkan, to get much closer to the metal. With games that are less demanding visually when you turn v-sync off with for example an i4790k Devils Canyon the frame rates goes way over 240fps even without Vulkan and DX12. So you see, there is no CPU bottleneck for graphics rendering. It's all GPU bound.
Which games require that much processing power purely for game logic? Can you give an actual example? Also, most game AIs are not trying to play at the best possible level, but to simulate a weak human to play against.
Oh gee can't be bothered to do a Google search because you would rather stick with confirmation bias. Here, I did it for you:
https://www.drgeeky.com/most-c...
http://www.tomshardware.com/an...
Now, I challenge you to refute those claims and present evidence for your own claim if you can actually be bothered to do it.
This is news?
The only reason why many people need that 4Ghz to begin with is because of how bloated software has become.
You are completely WRONG. Games, multimedia encoding, 4K streaming, etc. People are asking for more CPU intensive applications. Office applications, email and so forth barely make a 4ghz machine break a sweat. And before you "All games happen on GPU" there have been huge advancements in AI, open world games and the like that have to keep track of massive amounts of game state to give you the impression that you're in an immersive world. Maybe you're okay with a Pentium 2 because you can barely get on slashdot and check your email every once in awhile but some of us use our computers for far more than that.
9 years old means, at least in the USA, 4th grade. By then a student has (supposedly) learned multiplication and long division. If you cannot explain the basic mechanics of an internal combustion engine, banking, or gravity to someone who "knows" how to multiply and divide, then congratulations, you're a shitty teacher and should just stop talking to people.
Judging by your immaturity in trolling slashdot like a moron, you must be in 4th grade or lower. Go fuck yourself.
In my opinion this is not even about being liberal as it is about the herd pressure among nerds to stand against absolutely anything Trump because he is seen as anti-intellectual.
That's just another form of elitist douchery. It's the pot calling the kettle black.
So what? You don't have to understand scientific notation to know that you can vaporize Klingons with anti-matter.
Nonsense! Whenever I post to slashdot with each HTTP GET and POST I envision in my mind the precise HTTP/1.1 messages going across the wire including the User Agent for my specific browser. I also envision slashdot's server side code (probably written in 1990's CGI script) processing all this information and reading and writing from flat files on some crusty old Solaris box because they optimized some of the code in assembler to be scalable. You really do need to know all that to use a site like slashdot otherwise you're just not doing it right.
Relativity, spacetime curvature, and mass-energy equivalence are not beyond a nine year old's ability to understand
I'd like to see you explain to a 9 year old what a tesseract is such that they actually understand it and can attempt to visualize it. How many slashdotters do you suppose struggle with that? I bet some don't even know what a tesseract is other than some mystical Nordic Mythology thing in Marvel's Avengers.
next.
Correct. In order for someone to grasp the subject matter they need the knowledge foundation that his ideas were built upon. How would you explain the inner workings of the internal combustion engine to a 9 year old? You can't. How would you explain fractional reserve banking or the differences between Capitalism and Socialism to a 9 year old? You can't. What you can do however is gradually educate your kids on the foundation concepts that those higher level ideas are built upon which is supposed to be the job of the educational system. Eventually if you provide them with enough information they will make all the right neural connections in their brain and hopefully see the big picture.
Really smart people don't want to be leaders
That's because smart people (rational thinkers) realize office politics, drama and delusional thinking are wasted time and wasted time is wasted opportunity. They also know that trying to make an appeal to reason with people who do this as their default behavior is a waste of time and energy as well.
IQs in the general population are skewed above 100 because people with the low IQs either died earlier or are more likely to be institutionalized (either in long term care facilities or prisons).
100 would refer to the United States most likely. It depends on where you live: https://iq-research.info/en/pa...
Smart leaders tell you what's really going on not what you want to hear to make yourself feel good. In order to be competitive, you need good intelligence to formulate effective strategies. If all you want is people who tell you what you want to hear regardless of reality then you will ultimately fail because you won't be making decisions based on what is actually going on in your company and in your market.
It feels good for awhile with all the "yes people" and positive vibes then the money runs out, the doors close and it's time to find a new pasture to do it all over again
Trump won on a vision of an America advancing by removing the fetters of government.
Contrast that with Obama, who won on the premise that he would effect vengeance on those who were prejudiced.
And of course because you're not evangelizing liberal ideology which seems to be the majority on slashdot here, you get modded Flamebait even though there is nothing remotely flamebait about your comment. Fuck liberal censorship is what I have to say to that.
That's how Trump ended up president.
It's also how Obama ended being president as well. I swear you liberals think you're all high and mighty on the moral high ground. What a joke. That's why no one takes you seriously because you're a bunch of pompous, arrogant, narcissists living in a delusional world that has infinite money.
This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. You're suggesting people ought to vote on things not because of the merits of what they're voting on but out of vindictive spite. And you wonder why there is so much vitriol in politics. Your mindset is part of the problem.
...only surpassed by the naiveté of acting like the entire Republican caucus hasn't been doing exactly this already since 2008. If they're gonna be like this, perhaps they can use it for GOOD for once.
Really? This is exclusively the behavior of the Republican party and the Democrats are somehow saints? Both parties are crap for different reasons. The whole system is broke because of that. Both of them want to bankrupt the country, they just want to do it in different ways.
per capita, US energy consumption is more than that of China. demanding that they level off now borders on racism.
Trolly trolly troll... pathetic. How is it in your parents' basement moron?
China knows the problem they have and politically is heading in the correct direction whereas trump is not.
The data doesn't support your argument if you ACTUALLY look at it. Our energy consumption trends are levelling off and going down over the past 20 years. China's has consistently gone up. And this is not about Trump you idiot. We're are talking the past TWENTY YEARS. That would be Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama and now Trump. Take your Trump hating shit elsewhere moron.
That's fine but it doesn't change the fact that China consumes the most energy in the world and they are increasing their consumption. I don't care about propaganda. I care about actual data and statistics, you know facts? When the energy consumption trend levels off or starts going lower, China will be doing something productive. Until then, they are consuming more than the United States and have a consistent trend of energy consumption. In terms of all issues related to energy consumption, China is absolutely the worst offender and they need to do better.
No 'ought' at all. That's the way it works right now in the GOP; vote Trump, unless you have nothing to lose and are pissed that he's destroying the party.
What's your solution? More complaining and whining? As I said, you're part of the problem. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution. You offered nothing constructive therefore, you are part of the problem.
They don't need a moderate Republican. Given the current state of the involved politics, what they need is a pissed off Republican who isn't interested in continuing in public service and who will vote to hurt Trump
This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. You're suggesting people ought to vote on things not because of the merits of what they're voting on but out of vindictive spite. And you wonder why there is so much vitriol in politics. Your mindset is part of the problem.
china is however pushing hard on EV's and removing coal.
It's obviously not effective:
China: https://www.google.com/search?...
United States: https://www.google.com/search?...
Talk is cheap, results are all that matters.