Too many people these days have little or no exposure to C++
Uhm... nowadays too many people have little or even no exposure to math and actually nobody cares...
Having developing for Years in C++, and having learned OO in C++, obvoiusly being trapped by most ugly C++ traps I actually am against teaching C++ as something other than highly specialized course in University. Sure one can teach C++, but definitely C++ should be put to the Ancient Languages Cathedral together with COBOL, ALGOL, PL/I, FORTRAN, MODULA etc ideally within the Faculty of Historic Sciences...
For me it's typical "too little too less" syndrome. C++ played its important role years ago. Since then world has hanged dramatically. Current buzzowords dynamic languages, lambda expressions, clsoures and all this stuff and nobody cares if it makes sense or not. Sure - having known C or C++ it gives a lot advantages - You understand difference between heap, stack and pointers memory management - and gives You *real* understanding what, for example, closure is. But, on the other hand - who cares nowadays, except some really specialized areas like system development (actulally done in C), game development (partially) or HPC development (also partially). Actually nobody. That's said. Noody cares about C++0x or whatever it's named... Having 10+ years of core C++ development I actually even don't wanna read this spec. Word's going forward, languages going forward and nobody cares nowadays about unicodes support build in language or huge and convenient standard library (oh, maybe Ruby still do, last time I checked Ruby lacked unicode support also...). So far well C++ but don't expect people be excited now.
Yup. Just tried to buy something. currently it's possible ONLY when You have billing addres from within US. Hope that amazon will open faster than iTunes.
lima
The single most stupid feature of ITMS is that's limited to some predefined countries only, which makes iPods half-backed product in countries like out-of-the official list. I, for one live in Poland and if only new amazon store is available from within the Poland I vote for amazon with my money.
thelima
It simply means that virtually nothing, except VS, has built-in support for TFS. I mean useful tools like: SQL tools (say TOAD, TORA etc), Enterprise software like UML modelers, Project management software (including MS Project right know), documentation systems, BPMS modelers and lots of other tools, which usually have excellent CVS and SVN support built-in.
Ha ha, TDD. What a dumb fad. You've been sucked into the Cult of the Fat Dork. TDD guys are usually the worst fuckers to have to code with. It's a big crutch to allow companies to use lesser-skilled developers while making sure they don't make a mess of things.
Next you'll be telling me how Agile programming can change your life.
It's all a stupid cult for bad programmers. The one article I always avoid in my DDJ is the Scott Ambler blabbering of this months new cultist pep talk. Complete drivel. You know, if You don't understand something, it doesn't automatically mean it's "dumb". Stating such a bold statements about something You definitely didn't use nor seen in real life is - well - definitely "dumb". That's my comment to above.
Why would the Team Server merge tool work with Subversion? TFS is also a source management system, far superior to CVS, about equal with Subversion. Why? See, world is sometimes more complicated than Microsoft describes to You, my Friend. Whatever VSTS is nice or not - it has few eliminating drawbacks:
it's exclusively tied to Microsoft technology,
supported almost exclusively by microsoft technology
virtually not supported by anything else
it's extremely expensive comparing to to value it brings (it's probably why You didn't answered how much doest it cos from my prev. post)
And world nowadays is little bit more complicated. Unless You are all-Microsoft house, and most entities nowadays are not, VSTS in not usually a choice. And I don't tell You only about Java.
Oh, and yes, it actually does. You can even tweak TFS to use Subversion as it's source management system. (In a pure.NET environment that would be stupid, but in the case of integrating projects with Unix/Linux teams, it's a really nice thing.) And, could You answer please - how does it cost per seat to have such a rudimentary functionality like diff/merge and unit testing built-in, in the Microsoft case? Just to have fair comparison of free (in the Eclipse case) and non-free products.
The quick fix thing you speak of looks like somewhat of a crutch for sloppy developers who don't know how to write quality code in the first place. Nope, it doesn't definitely. It's one of the best tools out here raising developer productivity. Consider TDD. You write test first. Without single line of real code. Of course at the beginning You've lots of errors - like cannot resolve existing types, cannot find given function etc. Just press CTRL-1 and You have this fixed in one second. Just try it.
Any GUI development (ASP, Winforms) is orders of magnitude easier in VS.net than its java/eclipse counterparts. HTML development is NOT a DEVELOPER task - it's HTML designer task. I don't care about it. If i have to write webapp, I write really simple HTML, develop MVC to make it working and give the rest to HTML designer. I don't need fancy HTML tags editors - those are just slower.
Unit testing is included in team system, as well as a very powerfull merge/diff tool. How much does it cost in Microsoft case to get this *basic* functionality? Does it powerful "merge" tool works with CVS or SVN?
OK, You definitelly don't understand unittesting. Sorry. But answering Your question - sure, it's not a problem add few lines to Makefle, but, You know, most up-to-date IDE have something more than just "run my test suite". Like - find if given code (cless, function) is covered by some test (if yes - find those tests). Run only one test from with the whole suite (ex. just this function, I'm currently editing). Auto-generate test fixture for given class. Rerun only recently failed test. etc. Just try how does it works in eclipse. Feel the difference.
De gustibus not dispu^H^H^H^Hblah, blah, blah. But You know - I could hardly consider development environment something without support of unit-testing built-in (don't tell me about VSTS). I could sacrifice all graphical wizards for single one feature of Eclipse IDE which is not available in VS.NET (without third party plugins) - live compilation together with quick fixes. To give You feeling, when I have a bug it is immediately highlighted (no save no magic keystrokes). Not only this but also I can see *ALL* dependent resources as "invalid". I sut, the, simply press CTRL+1 I usually get useful quick fixes offered by IDE. Such as: surround with try catch, initialize plus dozen other. See Quick Fixes in Eclipse. Of course there is much more juicy details unavailable in VS. Light years ahead refactorisation, far, far better auto-complete (in VS.NET is just a toy, nothing comparable to eclipse), excellent support for team-programming - just two words - Mylar and Team support - show me something comparable to structural diffs in VS.NET. Should I write more? VS.NET is just below average IDE, with lot's of useless Wizards You will never use in real life, but lacking some *crucial* thing others have for Years. I could bet, I can write comparable java webapp without fancy wizards faster than You wit those wizards...
C'mon! Haven't You heard about VS.NET (aka Orcas) and shiny new C# (formerly known as NGWS) with LINQ and DLINQ support, together with ASP.NET, VB.NET and WCF (aka Indigo), WPF (aka Avalon), WCS (aka Infocard), WCS (aka Workflow), running on top of CLR and MSIL (which is MS implementation of ACME CIL) which together is known as CLI, of course running on top of Vista (aka Longhorn). Just to scrape the surface. Ya 'now, it's the digital era...
Could You name one that "Company"? I worked for World biggest Healthcare company, few Financial Institutions (including Banking) whose standardized on Eclipse with great success. You know, real programmers, don't necessarily need fancy GUI wizards for composing HTML pages, drag-and-drop class/build-file wizards, programming etc. - simply because developers doesn't project HTML, unless You work for one-person, swiss-knife DYI "company". You know, usually companies have HTML developers who use their own tools (and those are not Eclipse nor VS, from what I can see). So without generalization please.
Artur
...many examples before. Have You remember Internet Explorer for Unix? Cross-Platform Active X?
Anything Microsoft did cross-platform before and it survived for more than few months? If not, why
someone should believe this is THE case, THIS time?
Artur
I beg to disagree. I won't discuss You analysis, you know i have learned history of my country for almost 10 years - so I believe know it little bit more. Learning history by googling few sites is not the best way. I don't want suggest You are biased, but why didn't You cite wikipedia.org at least, instead You have chosen random source, selecting information in-line with Your suggestions. OK, start from beginning (for in-depth history please read excellent Norman Davies "God's Playground" - and You will understand why You did substantial mistakes in Your analysis below):
The Polish state was born in 966 with the baptism of Mieszko I, duke of the Slavic tribe of Polans and founder of the Piast dynasty. His conversion from paganism to Christianity was Poland's first recorded historical event. By 990, when Mieszko officially submitted to the authority of the Holy See, he had transformed his country into one of the strongest powers in Eastern Europe. Mieszko's son Bolesaw the Brave built on his father's achievements, for the first time uniting all the provinces that subsequently came to comprise the traditional territory of Poland. In 1025 he became the first king of Poland. After his death the country entered a period of instability, but was unified under the reign of Bolesaw the Wrymouth. After he died in 1138, however, the kingdom was divided among four of his sons, ushering in a period of fragmentation. For two centuries, the Piasts sparred with each other, the clergy, and the nobility for control over the divided kingdom. The civil strife and foreign invasions, such as that of the Mongols in 1241, weakened and depopulated the small Polish principalities.
Emphasize is mine.
* The Coronation of Boleslaw Chrobry (the Brave) As the first king of Poland, in 1024, established Poland's right as an independent kingdom. Plain wrong. This date is the date of formal Coronation. It doesn't mean that Poland didn't exist before...
* In 1138 the Testament of Boleslaw III shattered the precarious unity of Poland by dividing the realm among Boleslaw's sons.
* The [Teutonic] Order turned on the Poles and began to grab large chunks of Polish territory, finally invading Gdansk in 1308 and massacring its Polish inhabitants. At the same time, a steady influx of German colonists helped to consolidate the Order's wealth and power. Indeed. Do You suggest that by this "dividing" Poland disappeared or what?
* A brief period of Czech rule from 1300-1305, under Vaclav II, reunited a main part of Poland [So there was even an external rule over the country]. And?
* From 1609 Poland became involved in a series of wars and was invaded by Swedes, Turks and Muscovites in such numbers that the country was almost submerged by enemy forces; this period became known as the "Deluge". And Your point is? Most countries these times were involved into one or other war...
Oh, please... If one nation suffered from communism more than others it's Russia itself. You make it sound that all commies were Russian. Wrong. Percentage-wise there were no less communist members in Poland and Eastern Germany, for example, than in Russia. "Russian" revolution were sponsored by Germans and all kind of nations participated in it (on commie side). "Latvian shooters" were famous red-army guard forces for example. Poor latvian and east germans then... occupied by evil Russia. Well - next time think better of who you support. Next - Russian occupation? Was you city boss or police chief Russians? Would you like them more to be Germans? And do you think that you were worse off than people in Russia under "Russian occupation"? Look, I know that Russian suffered badly from communism, so Poland and the rest of this part of the Europe. You know the difference between Russia and other countries was simple - we were occupied they don't. Simple. Remember those dramatical facts, few month ago in Talling with Russian Soldier monument? You, from the other side of the wall, will never understand Our position. For Us soviet army was just anyother Army. Not so different from Germans, really. It wasn't freedom for Us, it just was other form of occupation, lasting 50 years.
And, BTW - just for the record - during last 500 years Poland invaded Russia much more often than Russia did Poland. That's just plain false statement. Show proofs. You know, for last 300 years Poland hadbeenoccupied for most the time...
lima
Agian, we are not placing bases in Our country yet. We start to talk about this. What we do want is to decide about this Ouerselves. We just are sick of advices from Russia in the style of last Putin statement (and this is not first such a statement, just first gainig global interest). That's all.
I would love to see one of you New-Europe east-block countries say 'No' to the US.
It's not gonna happen. Oh really?
You're so busy whoring yourselves out to the superpower du jour that you lose all semblance of national sovereignty the minute someone flashes a wad of dollars or euros. Really? First, comparing this 10 square kilometers camp with dozens of rockets to Russian occupation annihilated few hundred thousands of people in Poland, devastating country for 40 years is plain stupidity. Sorry cannot said different way. Please have some distance.
Coming to bold statements, new EU countries are whores etc... Well, where have You been when there were built US army camps in Spain, Italy, Iceland, Turkey, Hungary, Bosnia to name few countries in Europe only? Do You mean Italy and Spain sold their soil for few bugs? Or maybe they are whoring all the time? Uh, maybe they introduced regime? Erm, not they are probably slaves? Yeah, sure, they are slaves. BTW. Where You come from?
Why do You think that doing anything with US automatically means "kissing the ass"? Poland is doing a lot of things with for example EU more frequently, more important and much more expensive - and this is "kissing EU ass"? Ain't You little bit biased agains US? I started to thing whatever we do together with US it will be "ass kissing" to You...
Why don't Poland start to think of their own interest instead of kissing the ass of either Bush or Putin? What possible benefit does the polish people get from putting these weapons on their soil? Again, please read my posts carefully. I'm not saying this base on Our soil is good/bad thing. What I try to emphasize is quite different thing. When US had chosen Poland as a best place among few other in the Europe, from this very moment it's up to Poland and US to agree on this or not. Mr. Putin has nothing to say here. Dot.
Also lots of countries have US military bases on it's soil. Germany is only one example. 3 sec gooogling
gave me little bit more, just few examples in Europe:
U.S. Naval Station, Rota, Spain
Naval Support Activity, Naples, Italy
Naval Air Station Keflavik, Iceland
Naval Air Station Sigonella, Italy
Aviano Air Base, Italy
Incirlik Air Base, Turkey
Taszar Air Base, Hungary
Please go and advice those "bitch" countries not to "lick US ass". Oh or maybe those countries aren't independent?
Uhm, maybe Hungary or Spain had some special historical considerations contrary to Poland? Ideas? Oh BTW: Where You come from?
1772... 1776 was the year of the Declaration of Independence in America. Before that it was just a bunch of european colonies. And before europeans this part of the world belong to american natives for 11000 (eleven thousand) years... So, Poland was part of Russia for almost as long as the USA are being independent (well, minus few decades in the XX century).
You see, history does not matter much in questions like this. It is the power to declare sovereignty and to maintain it that matters. Let's take a look at it other way. Poland stayed independent country for 800 Years, two times longer than US now. And everything it started 400+ before Columbus had arrived to America, or, 800 years before US had declared independence. Not so bad score. And yes it had happened that Russia occupied Poland for quite a long - but same applies to Austria and Prussia - which disappeared BTW. And according to You Russia has some special influence on Poland? Interesting. It's just like saying that France had special influence on US because quite a few states had belong to France before US declared Independence AFAIK.
Don't be surprised that Russia suddenly bans Polish products. Funny. Russia had banned Polish products roughly Year before anybody here heard
about American shield...
lima
True. You can continue to let a foreign country build military on your soil, you can continue to let that same country violate Genova convention on your soil, business is business. And you can buy more F16 too... You are starting mix topics. If we allow this shield to be build on Our soil it won't automatically mean that
we accept everything America is doing. You know it's even not connected to Bush or something, Bush will leave
WH in a Year - shield will be finished something like 2010...
Welcome in EU. I'm getting sick of statements like this one. What EU? Driven by Jacques Chirack saying that Poland should shout up? Or
Gerhard Schroedder accepting deal (with Russia btw) and then being a manager of it?
Great, first you were occupied by the USSR, now you are brown-nosing the USA. Maybe your country is a country of slaves. Seems like you just have to have a master. C'mone I wish You were here in Poland 25-30 Years ago. You would finally understand what communism and Russian occupation was all about, maybe also You would understand why Your comparison is stupid. Please have a distance. Right now in Germany there are dozens of US Army camps, including biggest one in Rammstain. Do You think Germans are slaves? And BTW: there are no US troops in Poland for the time being.
The decision will be forced on you whether you choose to recognize it as your own or not. In the end your country has _nothing_ to offer except for its geographical position (unlike, say, Switzerland). Probably.
The smartest thing to do would be to stay away from geo-political games altogether, because there are no places left in it except for pawns. Thanks for Your advice:).
I don't think Poland and Czech knows the meaning of meaning of being independed nations yet. Don't blame you, you are well trained to do what you are told to do by the biggest bully around.
Yeah, right, according to You, we should kindly beg Mr. Putin to forgive Our gaffe, and back to sit quietly to be "really independent"?
Back to the "biggest bully" - do You believe that, for example Germany, is not really dependent since they have dozens of US Army camps, including the biggest one in Rammsau?
Slashdot Mirror
Too many people these days have little or no exposure to C++
Uhm... nowadays too many people have little or even no exposure to math and
actually nobody cares...
Having developing for Years in C++, and having learned
OO in C++, obvoiusly being trapped by most ugly C++ traps I actually am against
teaching C++ as something other than highly specialized course in University. Sure one
can teach C++, but definitely C++ should be put to the Ancient Languages Cathedral
together with COBOL, ALGOL, PL/I, FORTRAN, MODULA etc ideally within the Faculty of Historic Sciences...
lima
For me it's typical "too little too less" syndrome. C++ played its important role years ago. Since then world has hanged dramatically. Current buzzowords dynamic languages, lambda expressions, clsoures and all this stuff and nobody cares if it makes sense or not. Sure - having known C or C++ it gives a lot advantages - You understand difference between heap, stack and pointers memory management - and gives You *real* understanding what, for example, closure is. But, on the other hand - who cares nowadays, except some really specialized areas like system development (actulally done in C), game development (partially) or HPC development (also partially). Actually nobody. That's said. Noody cares about C++0x or whatever it's named... Having 10+ years of core C++ development I actually even don't wanna read this spec. Word's going forward, languages going forward and nobody cares nowadays about unicodes support build in language or huge and convenient standard library (oh, maybe Ruby still do, last time I checked Ruby lacked unicode support also...). So far well C++ but don't expect people be excited now.
lima
...any windows there... ;)
Yup. Just tried to buy something. currently it's possible ONLY when You have billing addres from within US. Hope that amazon will open faster than iTunes. lima
The single most stupid feature of ITMS is that's limited to some predefined countries only, which makes iPods half-backed product in countries like out-of-the official list. I, for one live in Poland and if only new amazon store is available from within the Poland I vote for amazon with my money. thelima
It simply means that virtually nothing, except VS, has built-in support for TFS. I mean useful tools like: SQL tools (say TOAD, TORA etc), Enterprise software like UML modelers, Project management software (including MS Project right know), documentation systems, BPMS modelers and lots of other tools, which usually have excellent CVS and SVN support built-in.
- it's exclusively tied to Microsoft technology,
- supported almost exclusively by microsoft technology
- virtually not supported by anything else
- it's extremely expensive comparing to to value it brings (it's probably why You didn't answered how much doest it cos from my prev. post)
And world nowadays is little bit more complicated. Unless You are all-Microsoft house, and most entities nowadays are not, VSTS in not usually a choice. And I don't tell You only about Java. Oh, and yes, it actually does. You can even tweak TFS to use Subversion as it's source management system. (In a pureOK, You definitelly don't understand unittesting. Sorry. But answering Your question - sure, it's not a problem add few lines to Makefle, but, You know, most up-to-date IDE have something more than just "run my test suite". Like - find if given code (cless, function) is covered by some test (if yes - find those tests). Run only one test from with the whole suite (ex. just this function, I'm currently editing). Auto-generate test fixture for given class. Rerun only recently failed test. etc. Just try how does it works in eclipse. Feel the difference.
De gustibus not dispu^H^H^H^Hblah, blah, blah. But You know - I could hardly consider development environment something without support of unit-testing built-in (don't tell me about VSTS). I could sacrifice all graphical wizards for single one feature of Eclipse IDE which is not available in VS.NET (without third party plugins) - live compilation together with quick fixes. To give You feeling, when I have a bug it is immediately highlighted (no save no magic keystrokes). Not only this but also I can see *ALL* dependent resources as "invalid". I sut, the, simply press CTRL+1 I usually get useful quick fixes offered by IDE. Such as: surround with try catch, initialize plus dozen other. See Quick Fixes in Eclipse. Of course there is much more juicy details unavailable in VS. Light years ahead refactorisation, far, far better auto-complete (in VS.NET is just a toy, nothing comparable to eclipse), excellent support for team-programming - just two words - Mylar and Team support - show me something comparable to structural diffs in VS.NET. Should I write more? VS.NET is just below average IDE, with lot's of useless Wizards You will never use in real life, but lacking some *crucial* thing others have for Years. I could bet, I can write comparable java webapp without fancy wizards faster than You wit those wizards...
C'mon! Haven't You heard about VS.NET (aka Orcas) and shiny new C# (formerly known as NGWS) with LINQ and DLINQ support, together with ASP.NET, VB.NET and WCF (aka Indigo), WPF (aka Avalon), WCS (aka Infocard), WCS (aka Workflow), running on top of CLR and MSIL (which is MS implementation of ACME CIL) which together is known as CLI, of course running on top of Vista (aka Longhorn). Just to scrape the surface. Ya 'now, it's the digital era...
Could You name one that "Company"? I worked for World biggest Healthcare company, few Financial Institutions (including Banking) whose standardized on Eclipse with great success. You know, real programmers, don't necessarily need fancy GUI wizards for composing HTML pages, drag-and-drop class/build-file wizards, programming etc. - simply because developers doesn't project HTML, unless You work for one-person, swiss-knife DYI "company". You know, usually companies have HTML developers who use their own tools (and those are not Eclipse nor VS, from what I can see). So without generalization please. Artur
...many examples before. Have You remember Internet Explorer for Unix? Cross-Platform Active X? Anything Microsoft did cross-platform before and it survived for more than few months? If not, why someone should believe this is THE case, THIS time? Artur
Became finally true?
Artur
wikipedia
The Polish state was born in 966 with the baptism of Mieszko I, duke of the Slavic tribe of Polans and founder of the Piast dynasty. His conversion from paganism to Christianity was Poland's first recorded historical event. By 990, when Mieszko officially submitted to the authority of the Holy See, he had transformed his country into one of the strongest powers in Eastern Europe. Mieszko's son Bolesaw the Brave built on his father's achievements, for the first time uniting all the provinces that subsequently came to comprise the traditional territory of Poland. In 1025 he became the first king of Poland. After his death the country entered a period of instability, but was unified under the reign of Bolesaw the Wrymouth. After he died in 1138, however, the kingdom was divided among four of his sons, ushering in a period of fragmentation. For two centuries, the Piasts sparred with each other, the clergy, and the nobility for control over the divided kingdom. The civil strife and foreign invasions, such as that of the Mongols in 1241, weakened and depopulated the small Polish principalities. Emphasize is mine. * The Coronation of Boleslaw Chrobry (the Brave) As the first king of Poland, in 1024, established Poland's right as an independent kingdom. Plain wrong. This date is the date of formal Coronation. It doesn't mean that Poland didn't exist before... * In 1138 the Testament of Boleslaw III shattered the precarious unity of Poland by dividing the realm among Boleslaw's sons. * The [Teutonic] Order turned on the Poles and began to grab large chunks of Polish territory, finally invading Gdansk in 1308 and massacring its Polish inhabitants. At the same time, a steady influx of German colonists helped to consolidate the Order's wealth and power. Indeed. Do You suggest that by this "dividing" Poland disappeared or what? * A brief period of Czech rule from 1300-1305, under Vaclav II, reunited a main part of Poland [So there was even an external rule over the country]. And? * From 1609 Poland became involved in a series of wars and was invaded by Swedes, Turks and Muscovites in such numbers that the country was almost submerged by enemy forces; this period became known as the "Deluge". And Your point is? Most countries these times were involved into one or other war...
Agian, we are not placing bases in Our country yet. We start to talk about this. What we do want is to decide about this Ouerselves. We just are sick of advices from Russia in the style of last Putin statement (and this is not first such a statement, just first gainig global interest). That's all.
lima
Coming to bold statements, new EU countries are whores etc... Well, where have You been when there were built US army camps in Spain, Italy, Iceland, Turkey, Hungary, Bosnia to name few countries in Europe only? Do You mean Italy and Spain sold their soil for few bugs? Or maybe they are whoring all the time? Uh, maybe they introduced regime? Erm, not they are probably slaves? Yeah, sure, they are slaves. BTW. Where You come from?
lima
Also lots of countries have US military bases on it's soil. Germany is only one example. 3 sec gooogling gave me little bit more, just few examples in Europe:
U.S. Naval Station, Rota, Spain
Naval Support Activity, Naples, Italy
Naval Air Station Keflavik, Iceland
Naval Air Station Sigonella, Italy
Aviano Air Base, Italy
Incirlik Air Base, Turkey
Taszar Air Base, Hungary
Please go and advice those "bitch" countries not to "lick US ass". Oh or maybe those countries aren't independent? Uhm, maybe Hungary or Spain had some special historical considerations contrary to Poland? Ideas? Oh BTW: Where You come from?
lima
And this is different topic, actually ;)
lima
lima
lima
Yeah, right, according to You, we should kindly beg Mr. Putin to forgive Our gaffe, and back to sit quietly to be "really independent"?
Back to the "biggest bully" - do You believe that, for example Germany, is not really dependent since they have dozens of US Army camps, including the biggest one in Rammsau?
lima