To say that the Enlightenment freed people from "holy circles" is somewhat misleading.
For instance, the great protestant reformation followed the Enlightenment in Europe. Some of the main stars in this movement were breaking holy circles, are Martin Luther and William Tinsdale. Yet what did they do that was all so bad?
They provided information, per-se the Bible translated into there own languages so the lay-man can have the same access as the minister.
Hmmm, the Bible information? Maybe even information that created a whole protestant reformation?
Gallileo, Capernicus, Newton and others are guilty of this crime. Providing information.
Hmmm, looking at this I think I can sum up what has taken you so many words to mystify,
Information brings Enlightenment. Enlightenment empowers the common person who then breaks free from tyranny, whether that tyrrany be religious, economic, or political in nature.
I say information but I can also say 'truth', which sums your article up even better as, "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free".
I take occation to much of what you say on the internet being a movement. It isn't a movement, it is a vehicle. Nothing more or less grand about it than other vehicles (books, oral tradition, etc...) only it is more powerful and capable. But still essentialy the same vehicle. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~ ~^~
Any statement made has the possibility to be wrong.
Unless of course it is right.
Then it can't possibly be wrong. So does that mean we give up, sitting around on our thumbs becuase people think it is impossible to find real truth?
Just becuase society hasn't agreed on truth does that mean its impossible to find/have?
No faith isn't imagionation, but it isn't educated guessing either. It is the evidence of things not seen, and the assurance of things hoped for. Evidence and assurance being key words here.
But faith is built on one undeniable foundation, that being the existance of absolute truth. That is where I say, "Any statement has the possibility of being wrong, unless of course it is right." ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~ ^~
Speaking of saying things "on faith" - you seem pretty certain of how and what I think - I assume you've got a direct line to my subconscious...
This sounds a lot like that Dialogue in Gross Anatomy between the professor and the punk-arrogant student... ______________________________
"Were you guessing?"
"Am I right?"
"Yes."
"Then I wasn't guessing." ______________________________ In any case, "I could be wrong, or I could be right" means you don't know for sure. And if you don't know for sure but believe you are right anyway (becuase you have in your possestion reasonable evidence), isn't that faith? It is to me.
I'm not flaming, I just think that faith is a misunderstood word. Thats all. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
"religion is a vast consensual(ish) delusion manufactured out of bits of carbon and electrochemical signals"
Unless of course it isn't. Do you really know or do you just say that on faith? Yes of course you do. I wouldn't worry about it except that faith seems synonomous with delusion with you. (I'm not arguing one way or the other, just pointing out the flaw in that logic.)
But aside from this nonesence, there is two different articles here, the book (which I haven't and I don't think any of the posters have read) and Katz's review. Any differences in oppinion with Kats probably means you need to read the book too.
I for one find the article interesting but will hold my opinion until I know more. But one thing I can say for sure is that however spiritual/not spiritual the internet is, it isn't the New Jerusalem. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~ ^~~^~
When I heard that NT spanked Linux in there testsi was perplexed. When I read on LWN how they could have had the Linux box run faster I felt better, but not good.
When Mindcraft reported that the reason they didn't tune the Linux box was due to lack of tuning information on our part, I was willing to help. (I don't care how they asked RedHat, any inquery into the newsgroups would have been welcome and dumped them with tons of useful information but maybe they knew that already;) ).
But now after hearing that I'm mad. There will only be satisfaction after reproducing the NT box *exactly*, installing Linux (I don't think newly coded drivers are unfair, its after all GPL's strength and selling point. Just call it "Tuning" like any company willing to spend that much money on a machine would like to do.) Anyway, install and tune linux on that box and show a marked improvement.
It will show...
1) Linux is more tunable/customizable 2) Linux is faster and most importanlty... 3) Linux *LIVES*
I really take offence when they attack the community, let alone Linux. The community has always been the most important aspect of Linux. When I started out I was a punk-arrogant college kid who believed there was a better way than MS. When my college buddy showed me that his program code (nearly identical to mine) ran three times as fast on Linux I gave it a look.
But what kept me in was the community. The Linux community has always believed in bettering the individual user/programmer and invests knowledge and time in them. The knowledge and training I recieved from news groups (which looking back I'm embarrased at how idiotic my origional questions were, but they treated me politely and helped me out in any case) would have cost me $2,500+ in MSCE and CNE training.
Much of which Microsoft keeps out of the knowledge base to "encourage" one to get that training. Or rather they assume you've taken that training to understand what is in the knowledge base. (Yes I've used it, and its no better than deja-news in useability.)
Linux has always been interested in individual needs, from my mother (who just uses e-mail and word processing) to my brother ready to port EDA tools to Linux.
I really think its time to show that once again to the world. If anyone knows of a place working on reproducing these tests I'd love to send help, info, and if they are reputable enough even money.
The discussion on Slashdot and LWN was great now I'm ready for the slam-dunk proof.
In the movie 'Tora-Tora-Tora', after bombing Perl-Harbor the Japanese Admiral was asked why he wasn't happy after such a success. He repied someting like "I'm only afriad we have woken up a sleeping giant." I hope the community is awake now. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
Thats what everyone on slashdot says. And usually it means "I didn't understand what you said." This seems one of those instances. (Did you even read the mention of Package manager?)
You do make a good point of what user friendlyness is, my point was not that it is user friendly, but that it wasn't the kludge of command line cryptics that Salon makes it out to be. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
This article is very informative and gives a good kick in the pants towards a direction. And it is also reminscent of the same old trash (I'm even unafraid to say FUD) I saw before the DOJ case against Microsoft.
Linux is a morass of arcane text commands, bewildering options and incomprehensible Unix concepts
Linux is not Command Line dependant. In *very* easy instructions that comes with Redhat I removed any command line boot up on my computer at home. Once KDE was installed (is 'rpm -ivh kde*' that hard? If it is the package manager in the control panel is easier!) I only had trouble setting up the menus to handle everything I wanted to do. But that wasn't harder than learning Win95.
the Achilles heel of their open-source software development model -- the need to get cool people to take on uncool tasks. [i.e. make it simple for non geeks]
There is Stampede lite, Simple End User Linux, Corel, and other potentialy good distributions working on just those problems. There is a lot of work being done in this area already.
Installing Linux as many have pointed out can be easier than Windows, and when something goes wrong, it is even easier to fix.
I didn't accept this trash before, and I don't see a reason to accept it now. This is where I draw the FUD line, when they project an image of Linux that is not true. It isn't a cryptic mess of command lines (unless you like it that way.) Non-Geeks won't be abandoned by the community, just by Ivan.
Remember when the community won an award for its support? As far as I know the Linux-Help IRC channel is still an invaluable help line. Maybe we've gotten lax with IBM and other companies promising support? No, it may sound like it until we remeber back that its just a rehashing of fud with the same old answers we've maybe forgotten because we haven't been challenged by them in a long time. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
Somewhat off topic, but at the end of the article it mentions Voltron as the leading syndicated cartoon.
Congradualtions to Voltron the Third dimention...
I had no idea they were doing another Voltron. Does anyone know anything about it? My favorite is was always Vehicle Voltron. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~ ~^~
becuase no one puts a price on anything that is free.
I'm being cynical, but it seems to me that tapes died only after CD's weren't made copyable. They were much worse in quality, but the freedom of sharing with them (copying etc...) was worth the price of poorer quality.
MP3 is out there, and growing. They can't take it back or supplant it with something better that isn't so free. Maybe this is like the articles more than a year back that said Linux was a fad just reaching its peak? ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
Axis and Allies (Hasbro) gets only to an animation sequence and hangs.
And my Windows95 installation is *very* vanilla. All that is loaded on it is the g200 driver that came with the card, Trophy Bass, GospeLink, and CivilizationII gold edition. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~ ~^~
BTW, on the scholarly level you might want to check out
www.farmsresearch.com
Most of infidels.org is third grade whinning. But some things have merit, and FARMS is pretty good about being straight forward and not apologistic to such critisisms.
If you really think you have the understandable logical opinion go check them out. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
Ahh yes the Vampires. You missed the point, my AC friend. The amazing thing is that God Cannot disprove himself, therefore it is impossible to disprove God. And you would have to be a God to know everything in the universe simultaneously to create the exhaustive proof of God's inexistence. Since a Vampire isn't ascribed omniscience, he falls out of the loop of the disprovables (at least by that logic.)
You suppose that is an argument to say there must be a God, but that is not so. If you can't prove something you are accepting it on faith. That means that believing there is no God is the approach of never ending faith (it can't ever be proven), whereas God can be proven. That to me makes it, at least, the logical approach. But doens't prove existance.
I thought you missed my argument. When you say "your argument [is] that life is made to learn pain and success," you miss one difference. My argument is actually that you chose a life so that you could learn pain and success. God created a place where that can happen and you chose to go there (here). Becuase it doesn't happen for everyone is irrelavant to your case, and the argument.
As far as your point, your reasoning still hangs on perfection meaning everything works out great for you no matter what you do. But yes, lions eat wildebeasts. Touching a hot stove burns your finger. Standing in the way of a fast bus smashes you body beyond its designed capacity to function. This doesn't disprove or even dispell God.
And there have been many christians burned alive by other Christians. My favorite was William Tinsdale. But they seemed to believe in something worth dying for, they could have chosen to renounce there beliefs and lived but their values were beyond the pain and suffering they were causing in their lives.
Wouldn't your logic (pain means imperfection) label that as simply absurd, a person following your logic would never do that. Yet they did, driven by values beyond personal suffering. That value to truth exists, and is a principle that drove Galileo, William Tinsdale, and Christ.
Truth is out there, it can be gawked at, sworn at, imagined away, but it is still there. Killing the messenger of that truth doesn't even kill the truth. Arguing it away with Aristotolian logic doesn't change it (just ask Gallileo. (btw I'll look for some good Gallileo believing in God quotes later.) Truth needs to be found, becuase its there. And when everything is said and done, and the truth is discovered you may find it isn't so unfair after all. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
Um, no. But then you may have a point, you just don't make it.
>If your god existed, I would despise it. As it is, I simply have no respect for christians.
A simple catch here, God does exist so where does that leave you?
>Further, if your make-believe daddy existed, since he'd be omnipotent, he could make people who could learn anything he wanted them to learn without suffering.
Your reasoning is shoddy at best, it looks like you are saying you would do things differently as a god. Would you? Is there a way to learn without suffering when learning is the repository of experience? In other words if you create a Universe, and define learning as a growth from experience (ouch hot stove, I guess I've learned my lesson) you could only achieve what you are talking about by changing the meaning of learning. But then it really isn't learning is it.
> the only possible reason for pain is as an end unto itself
I don't think he said that the reason for pain is to experience pain. I looked his post up and down and couldn't see it.
It is true that without pain you can't experience pain, (duh) and if you can't experience pain you can't experience anything else. How boring would climbing a mountain be if it was no more effort than an escolator ride? There would be no sence of achievement and the feeling of self worth that comes from it. There would be no joy of overcoming, nothing.
In every post you always skip over that. You haven't answered or even challenged the fact that you need to know pain to know joy. You just complain that there is pain to begin with. I guess you find it funner to play in the kindergarten logic that perfection means everything works out best for you no matter what you do.
You admit you can't disprove God's existance, yet you believe logic dispells it. Doesn't that seem contradictory to you?
But then again thats why you are an AC. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
I can understand when someone takes it on faith that they are right, But when your own logic works against you... (I wouldn't have quoted Gallileo with miserable logic like you used.)
- nobody has ever proven God - nobody has ever proven God not to exist (proving the non existence of something is impossible)
Doesn't your suplimental statement to the second statement contradict your first statement? I think Gallileo would be honored you quoted him, but ashamed at the leaps of logic used in the same post.
Besides as the proof of that statement goes, you can't prove there is not a God becuase you would have to be a God to do it. I don't think you can apply a vampire or unicorn in that logic. A God can disprove vampires, but he cannot disprove his own existance.
And should I take it on your word whatever my argument was doesn't apply to unfortunate loss of life at an early age? What argument doesn't apply?
How about when you say if you were all powerful you would do things better than that? What would you do differently?
I know three year olds who think they could do better than their parents becuase if they had they would be smarter and and . My are evil becuase they do not do that and
Was that the kind of Logic that Gallileo (who believed in God) used to prove that a perfectly workable model of the solar system can have the Sun at the center?
You seem to be backing youself into a corner. Care to continue? ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^ ~~^~
If you want to, tell me how Joseph Smith knew they used such things as Concrete, hardened Copper, highways, metal plates for writing, knew about the geographic upheavals in central america Circa 30ad, as well as understood intricacies of four dead languages and Hebrew as a 21 year old back woods farmer in upper state New York, using more new words than than Shakespeare came up with in all his works
He displays uncanny knowledge of the mideastern Bedoin lifestyle, language intrecacies and tools.
Sure he quotes the Book of Isaiah a lot, but from four different translations, two of which were very rare outside of the holy land and one of which wasn't even found at that time.
Just remove the spam shield, and email me. I'm not out to prove the Book of Mormon, but it sure isn't discreditable. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~ ^~~~^~~^~
Personaly, think God created the Universe out if industry, not as an escape from eunnui (as Sherlock Holmes put it.) ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
Biblios interpreted means Library (like Bibliography). The Bible is a collection of stories, sermons, letters and books. ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^ ~
Slashdot Mirror
To say that the Enlightenment freed people from "holy circles" is somewhat misleading.
For instance, the great protestant reformation followed the Enlightenment in Europe. Some of the main stars in this movement were breaking holy circles, are Martin Luther and William Tinsdale. Yet what did they do that was all so bad?
They provided information, per-se the Bible translated into there own languages so the lay-man can have the same access as the minister.
Hmmm, the Bible information? Maybe even information that created a whole protestant reformation?
Gallileo, Capernicus, Newton and others are guilty of this crime. Providing information.
Hmmm, looking at this I think I can sum up what has taken you so many words to mystify,
Information brings Enlightenment. Enlightenment empowers the common person who then breaks free from tyranny, whether that tyrrany be religious, economic, or political in nature.
I say information but I can also say 'truth', which sums your article up even better as, "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free".
I take occation to much of what you say on the internet being a movement. It isn't a movement, it is a vehicle. Nothing more or less grand about it than other vehicles (books, oral tradition, etc...) only it is more powerful and capable. But still essentialy the same vehicle.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^
Any statement made has the possibility to be wrong.
~ ^~
Unless of course it is right.
Then it can't possibly be wrong. So does that mean we give up, sitting around on our thumbs becuase people think it is impossible to find real truth?
Just becuase society hasn't agreed on truth does that mean its impossible to find/have?
No faith isn't imagionation, but it isn't educated guessing either. It is the evidence of things not seen, and the assurance of things hoped for. Evidence and assurance being key words here.
But faith is built on one undeniable foundation, that being the existance of absolute truth. That is where I say, "Any statement has the possibility of being wrong, unless of course it is right."
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~
Thanks for putting it so well.~
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^
Can YOU prove differently?
That would be boring, wouldn't you rather me prove my Dad can beat up your Dad?
:)
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
Speaking of saying things "on faith" - you seem pretty certain of how and what I think - I assume you've got a direct line to my subconscious...
This sounds a lot like that Dialogue in Gross Anatomy between the professor and the punk-arrogant student...
______________________________
"Were you guessing?"
"Am I right?"
"Yes."
"Then I wasn't guessing."
______________________________
In any case, "I could be wrong, or I could be right" means you don't know for sure. And if you don't know for sure but believe you are right anyway (becuase you have in your possestion reasonable evidence), isn't that faith? It is to me.
I'm not flaming, I just think that faith is a misunderstood word. Thats all.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
"religion is a vast consensual(ish) delusion manufactured out of bits of carbon and electrochemical signals"
~ ^~~^~
Unless of course it isn't. Do you really know or do you just say that on faith? Yes of course you do. I wouldn't worry about it except that faith seems synonomous with delusion with you. (I'm not arguing one way or the other, just pointing out the flaw in that logic.)
But aside from this nonesence, there is two different articles here, the book (which I haven't and I don't think any of the posters have read) and Katz's review. Any differences in oppinion with Kats probably means you need to read the book too.
I for one find the article interesting but will hold my opinion until I know more. But one thing I can say for sure is that however spiritual/not spiritual the internet is, it isn't the New Jerusalem.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~
Tell me where and when to show up...~
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^
spell study as 'studie' in your email to him? Is that an English-English thing like colour?~ ^~
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~
Independantly confirm the results...
~ ~^~
The Scientific community doesn't believe anything until that happens.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^
When I heard that NT spanked Linux in there testsi was perplexed. When I read on LWN how they could have had the Linux box run faster I felt better, but not good.
;) ).
When Mindcraft reported that the reason they didn't tune the Linux box was due to lack of tuning information on our part, I was willing to help. (I don't care how they asked RedHat, any inquery into the newsgroups would have been welcome and dumped them with tons of useful information but maybe they knew that already
But now after hearing that I'm mad. There will only be satisfaction after reproducing the NT box *exactly*, installing Linux (I don't think newly coded drivers are unfair, its after all GPL's strength and selling point. Just call it "Tuning" like any company willing to spend that much money on a machine would like to do.) Anyway, install and tune linux on that box and show a marked improvement.
It will show...
1) Linux is more tunable/customizable
2) Linux is faster
and most importanlty...
3) Linux *LIVES*
I really take offence when they attack the community, let alone Linux. The community has always been the most important aspect of Linux. When I started out I was a punk-arrogant college kid who believed there was a better way than MS. When my college buddy showed me that his program code (nearly identical to mine) ran three times as fast on Linux I gave it a look.
But what kept me in was the community. The Linux community has always believed in bettering the individual user/programmer and invests knowledge and time in them. The knowledge and training I recieved from news groups (which looking back I'm embarrased at how idiotic my origional questions were, but they treated me politely and helped me out in any case) would have cost me $2,500+ in MSCE and CNE training.
Much of which Microsoft keeps out of the knowledge base to "encourage" one to get that training. Or rather they assume you've taken that training to understand what is in the knowledge base. (Yes I've used it, and its no better than deja-news in useability.)
Linux has always been interested in individual needs, from my mother (who just uses e-mail and word processing) to my brother ready to port EDA tools to Linux.
I really think its time to show that once again to the world. If anyone knows of a place working on reproducing these tests I'd love to send help, info, and if they are reputable enough even money.
The discussion on Slashdot and LWN was great now I'm ready for the slam-dunk proof.
In the movie 'Tora-Tora-Tora', after bombing Perl-Harbor the Japanese Admiral was asked why he wasn't happy after such a success. He repied someting like "I'm only afriad we have woken up a sleeping giant." I hope the community is awake now.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
Thats what everyone on slashdot says. And usually it means "I didn't understand what you said." This seems one of those instances. (Did you even read the mention of Package manager?)
You do make a good point of what user friendlyness is, my point was not that it is user friendly, but that it wasn't the kludge of command line cryptics that Salon makes it out to be.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
This article is very informative and gives a good kick in the pants towards a direction. And it is also reminscent of the same old trash (I'm even unafraid to say FUD) I saw before the DOJ case against Microsoft.
~
Linux is a morass of arcane text commands, bewildering options and incomprehensible Unix concepts
Linux is not Command Line dependant. In *very* easy instructions that comes with Redhat I removed any command line boot up on my computer at home. Once KDE was installed (is 'rpm -ivh kde*' that hard? If it is the package manager in the control panel is easier!) I only had trouble setting up the menus to handle everything I wanted to do. But that wasn't harder than learning Win95.
the Achilles heel of their open-source software development model -- the need to get cool people to take on uncool tasks. [i.e. make it simple for non geeks]
There is Stampede lite, Simple End User Linux, Corel, and other potentialy good distributions working on just those problems. There is a lot of work being done in this area already.
Installing Linux as many have pointed out can be easier than Windows, and when something goes wrong, it is even easier to fix.
I didn't accept this trash before, and I don't see a reason to accept it now. This is where I draw the FUD line, when they project an image of Linux that is not true. It isn't a cryptic mess of command lines (unless you like it that way.) Non-Geeks won't be abandoned by the community, just by Ivan.
Remember when the community won an award for its support? As far as I know the Linux-Help IRC channel is still an invaluable help line. Maybe we've gotten lax with IBM and other companies promising support? No, it may sound like it until we remeber back that its just a rehashing of fud with the same old answers we've maybe forgotten because we haven't been challenged by them in a long time.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^
Somewhat off topic, but at the end of the article it mentions Voltron as the leading syndicated cartoon.
~ ~^~
Congradualtions to Voltron the Third dimention...
I had no idea they were doing another Voltron. Does anyone know anything about it? My favorite is was always Vehicle Voltron.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^
becuase no one puts a price on anything that is free.
~
I'm being cynical, but it seems to me that tapes died only after CD's weren't made copyable. They were much worse in quality, but the freedom of sharing with them (copying etc...) was worth the price of poorer quality.
MP3 is out there, and growing. They can't take it back or supplant it with something better that isn't so free. Maybe this is like the articles more than a year back that said Linux was a fad just reaching its peak?
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^
Opps, really one and a half becuase Trophy Bass also hangs now and again...~ ~^~
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^
Axis and Allies (Hasbro) gets only to an animation sequence and hangs.
~ ~^~
And my Windows95 installation is *very* vanilla. All that is loaded on it is the g200 driver that came with the card, Trophy Bass, GospeLink, and CivilizationII gold edition.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^
To me the Book of Abraham has never been an embarasement.
~ ~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
I've heard discussion about the Joseph Smith Papyrus, maybe that is what you are refering to. Like I said go to FARMS
www.farmsresearch.com
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^
But no answers to my questions.
Maybe another day then.
BTW, on the scholarly level you might want to check out
www.farmsresearch.com
Most of infidels.org is third grade whinning. But some things have merit, and FARMS is pretty good about being straight forward and not apologistic to such critisisms.
If you really think you have the understandable logical opinion go check them out.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
Ahh yes the Vampires. You missed the point, my AC friend. The amazing thing is that God Cannot disprove himself, therefore it is impossible to disprove God. And you would have to be a God to know everything in the universe simultaneously to create the exhaustive proof of God's inexistence. Since a Vampire isn't ascribed omniscience, he falls out of the loop of the disprovables (at least by that logic.)
You suppose that is an argument to say there must be a God, but that is not so. If you can't prove something you are accepting it on faith. That means that believing there is no God is the approach of never ending faith (it can't ever be proven), whereas God can be proven. That to me makes it, at least, the logical approach. But doens't prove existance.
I thought you missed my argument. When you say "your argument [is] that life is made to learn pain and success," you miss one difference. My argument is actually that you chose a life so that you could learn pain and success. God created a place where that can happen and you chose to go there (here). Becuase it doesn't happen for everyone is irrelavant to your case, and the argument.
As far as your point, your reasoning still hangs on perfection meaning everything works out great for you no matter what you do. But yes, lions eat wildebeasts. Touching a hot stove burns your finger. Standing in the way of a fast bus smashes you body beyond its designed capacity to function. This doesn't disprove or even dispell God.
And there have been many christians burned alive by other Christians. My favorite was William Tinsdale. But they seemed to believe in something worth dying for, they could have chosen to renounce there beliefs and lived but their values were beyond the pain and suffering they were causing in their lives.
Wouldn't your logic (pain means imperfection) label that as simply absurd, a person following your logic would never do that. Yet they did, driven by values beyond personal suffering. That value to truth exists, and is a principle that drove Galileo, William Tinsdale, and Christ.
Truth is out there, it can be gawked at, sworn at, imagined away, but it is still there. Killing the messenger of that truth doesn't even kill the truth. Arguing it away with Aristotolian logic doesn't change it (just ask Gallileo. (btw I'll look for some good Gallileo believing in God quotes later.) Truth needs to be found, becuase its there. And when everything is said and done, and the truth is discovered you may find it isn't so unfair after all.
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>>Lets Rephrase the Quote
>Why not it only changes the meaning completely
Um, no. But then you may have a point, you just don't make it.
>If your god existed, I would despise it. As it is, I simply have no respect for christians.
A simple catch here, God does exist so where does that leave you?
>Further, if your make-believe daddy existed, since he'd be omnipotent, he could make people who could learn anything he wanted them to learn without suffering.
Your reasoning is shoddy at best, it looks like you are saying you would do things differently as a god. Would you? Is there a way to learn without suffering when learning is the repository of experience? In other words if you create a Universe, and define learning as a growth from experience (ouch hot stove, I guess I've learned my lesson) you could only achieve what you are talking about by changing the meaning of learning. But then it really isn't learning is it.
> the only possible reason for pain is as an end unto itself
I don't think he said that the reason for pain is to experience pain. I looked his post up and down and couldn't see it.
It is true that without pain you can't experience pain, (duh) and if you can't experience pain you can't experience anything else. How boring would climbing a mountain be if it was no more effort than an escolator ride? There would be no sence of achievement and the feeling of self worth that comes from it. There would be no joy of overcoming, nothing.
In every post you always skip over that. You haven't answered or even challenged the fact that you need to know pain to know joy. You just complain that there is pain to begin with. I guess you find it funner to play in the kindergarten logic that perfection means everything works out best for you no matter what you do.
You admit you can't disprove God's existance, yet you believe logic dispells it. Doesn't that seem contradictory to you?
But then again thats why you are an AC.
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I can understand when someone takes it on faith that they are right, But when your own logic works against you... (I wouldn't have quoted Gallileo with miserable logic like you used.)
- nobody has ever proven God
- nobody has ever proven God not to exist (proving the non existence of something is impossible)
Doesn't your suplimental statement to the second statement contradict your first statement? I think Gallileo would be honored you quoted him, but ashamed at the leaps of logic used in the same post.
Besides as the proof of that statement goes, you can't prove there is not a God becuase you would have to be a God to do it. I don't think you can apply a vampire or unicorn in that logic. A God can disprove vampires, but he cannot disprove his own existance.
And should I take it on your word whatever my argument was doesn't apply to unfortunate loss of life at an early age? What argument doesn't apply?
How about when you say if you were all powerful you would do things better than that? What would you do differently?
I know three year olds who think they could do better than their parents becuase if they had they would be smarter and and . My are evil becuase they do not do that and
Was that the kind of Logic that Gallileo (who believed in God) used to prove that a perfectly workable model of the solar system can have the Sun at the center?
You seem to be backing youself into a corner. Care to continue?
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Already known. Thanks.
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*sigh*
Not on Slashdot.
If you want to, tell me how Joseph Smith knew they used such things as Concrete, hardened Copper, highways, metal plates for writing, knew about the geographic upheavals in central america Circa 30ad, as well as understood intricacies of four dead languages and Hebrew as a 21 year old back woods farmer in upper state New York, using more new words than than Shakespeare came up with in all his works
He displays uncanny knowledge of the mideastern Bedoin lifestyle, language intrecacies and tools.
Sure he quotes the Book of Isaiah a lot, but from four different translations, two of which were very rare outside of the holy land and one of which wasn't even found at that time.
Just remove the spam shield, and email me. I'm not out to prove the Book of Mormon, but it sure isn't discreditable.
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Personaly, think God created the Universe out if industry, not as an escape from eunnui (as Sherlock Holmes put it.)
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Biblios interpreted means Library (like Bibliography). The Bible is a collection of stories, sermons, letters and books.
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