It's a non-issue. If you want to sell your software and give it away, then by all means please do so.
Is Microsoft stopping you from doing that?
Puhleaze. Creating proprietary products is not evil. The FOSS religious crusade is evil. You're trying to take away my freedom to create proprietary products and sell them. Nobody is trying to take away your right to give away your work. As a matter of fact, please do!
Anyway, my point is that it wouldn't have mattered how Microsoft packaged their software. You FOSS religious crusaders would have found a problem with it simply because it's not free.
So basically, Canonical is allowed to choose different "flavors" for marketing reasons, but when Microsoft does it it's evil because you have to pay for it?
"I never said that Microsoft didn't do groundbreaking things."
You don't have to actually type something to imply it. But no, you go ahead and hide behind semantics, that's cool.
And yes, I do think that Apple has done some real groundbreaking marketing. Typically they take one gimmick and build the system around it, but ultimately they fail because of that. It happened with the Mac, iPod and iPhone. Each of them started out with one or two gimmicks that cause it to sell well. Then they don't know what to do with it and someone like Microsoft comes along and eats their lunch.
LOL. You think because a handful of companies have used Hypercard that it was more of a game changer than Microsoft's VB? I'll assume you're joking. That's just rich.
"Don't give a flying crap about a mousewheel"
You're just jealous because your favorite company _still_ sells laptops with one mouse button (oh and multi-touch that doesn't amount to much more than a marketing gimmick just like the dock and expose).
"This thread isn't about Microsoft."
Really? I don't think anyone got that memo, take a look at some of the comments genius.
I finally figured it out: You can start dragging a file and then activate Expose.... but you can't just drop the file onto the picture of the window that Expose shows you... you have to wait a full one second for the window to flash and then it lets you drop the file. Whew!
Thanks for your answers, you remained quite calm in the face of my terrible/. nickname and my somewhat gruff demeanor. Thank you:)
"I'm a prepress operator at a mid-size printing company and in addition to my normal duties I also maintain all the workstations, servers and network infrastructure for my department in my spare time."
Congratulations. How do you interact with the interface though? The answer is what defines a power user, not your mistaken idea that it depends on what your duties are around the office.
And if you're MIS department can't keep an email system up that's just bad management. It's not like it's the operating system's fault. Do YOU run a heavily trafficked email or MIS server with Macs?
"Ummm, no, Apple did that first, with Hypercard, in 1986 or '87."
Really? So, lot's of businesses used Hypercard for about 10 years like they did with VB and MSVC and COM (which created a multi-million user third party component market)?
"First to incorporate the mouse? Not Microsoft"
You misread that. I said mouse WHEEL.
"First to incorporate a GUI? Not Microsoft"
Nope. But, the first to popularize a GUI that ran on commodity hardware. There's a difference.
First to make REAL use of USB? Not Microsoft. First to ditch the floppy? Not Microsoft.
Nope. Nope. But, you're not seeing my point here. You're trying to take something away from Microsoft. I'm not trying to take anything away from Apple's accomplishments.
I'm okay with you saying that Apple does some things very well. They do. But, you can't seriously sit there and say that Microsoft hasn't had as much (if not more) of an impact on business (and play) as we know it.
In the Mac OS you can put a "Delete" toolbar button in the Finder window, but you can't use the "Delete" key to delete a file. You press the "Enter" key to rename a file instead of opening (entering) it and you press a non-control key combination (Cmd+tilde) to switch between windows within one application.
When a window is not minimized, there is no representation of it in the dock.
BTW, you can't _just_ drop the file into the Expose'd window. You have to sit there and wait a full SECOND for the window to get focus. Yeah, that's real good for the old work flow.
Sorry, it's the Apple developers that have their head up their collective asses not me.
Oh man, you really got me there. Your post was filled with so much knowledge, I bow down to you sir.
Go ahead, try dragging a file and then activating expose and dropping the file into a TextEdit window. Did it work? Nope. But you go on with your bad self. Those insults are really making me look stupid.
"Apple did groundbreaking things, and challenged conventional wisdoms about computers and software"
Oh puhleeeeaze. And Microsoft didn't? They were the ones that popularized an OS that ran on commodity hardware. If we'd gotten stuck with the Apple way, we have _absolutely_ no choice in anything.
Microsoft also revolutionized the rapid development of software with things like Visual Basic and COM.
Another small thing that Microsoft did was to popularize the mouse wheel. That's right.
"Why do you think things like Photoshop and desktop publishing took off first on the Mac?"
Because the OS was bundled with hardware that supported more colors than the IBM hardware of the day. And if you're going to use that as a weapon... Why do you think Adobe releases modern versions of Photoshop for Windows first?
I'm sitting in front of a Macbook Pro right now and I can honestly say that not being able to do things like "drag a file into a window being shown in Expose" hurts. Especially since it's so easy to do in Windows (drag file to taskbar item then to the window).
Also, the OSuX has too many two-handed keyboard shortcuts where the equivalent in Windows is a one-handed shortcut.
I think that the taskbar scales well since you can give it two or three rows if you want. With Expose, when you activate it, the windows are never in the same spot (or the same size) if the number of windows has changed. So it doesn't take advantage of muscle memory very well.
Also, I can drag a file to the taskbar item of the window that I want to drop it in, when the window gets focus I drop the file on the window. Can you do something like that with Expose? I tried it on my Macbook Pro and it didn't work but maybe there's a secret key combo?
And what's up with the weird symbols in Apple's control/option/command key system prefs and everywhere else that a key combo is shown? I can never remember which symbol goes with which key because the MBP keyboard doesn't have the symbols printed on them.
Don't get me wrong: Apple does some things really well. For instance, I love the fact that you can just boot from an external usb drive. But, when it comes to interface they fail. The dock and expose fail, but they are kept around because "they sell". But guess what that makes them? Gimmicks.
In the software world there's a HUGE difference between "a taskbar with a button for each application" and "a finder menu that lists each open application in a drop-down menu". Apple knows this very well.
Furthermore, regarding the trash bin - the technique of "representing a software process by metaphor" was already well established. The fact that Apple tried to patent/trademark/whatever this ONE instance of it was a pretty weak move by Apple, which is why they failed.
They should have been competing based on something important like actual technical capabilities, but they couldn't so they simply got OWNED by Microsoft (literally).
Slashdot Mirror
So if 7 different companies all made their own version of Windows, but they still charged for them, then you'd be happy?
It seems to me that you have more of a problem with someone charging for their product than how many SKU's their are. Which is completely off topic.
It's a non-issue. If you want to sell your software and give it away, then by all means please do so.
Is Microsoft stopping you from doing that?
Puhleaze. Creating proprietary products is not evil. The FOSS religious crusade is evil. You're trying to take away my freedom to create proprietary products and sell them. Nobody is trying to take away your right to give away your work. As a matter of fact, please do!
Anyway, my point is that it wouldn't have mattered how Microsoft packaged their software. You FOSS religious crusaders would have found a problem with it simply because it's not free.
Of course there's no risk with a free product. Duh.
Every time you buy anything that isn't really returnable you're taking a risk.
Apple has the MOST risk because they don't even take returns and to even try their OS out for a month you have to buy one of their machines.
So basically, Canonical is allowed to choose different "flavors" for marketing reasons, but when Microsoft does it it's evil because you have to pay for it?
Yeah, that makes sense.
"Yeah, right. Whatever."
Mmyeah... [chews cigar] and I can respond like this too, see? Mmyeah...
Also, let it be known that you don't want a mousewheel. Duely noted sir.
Thanks for your participation. You are now being dismissed.
Can you get higher up in your pulpit? I can't see you well enough.
"I never said that Microsoft didn't do groundbreaking things."
You don't have to actually type something to imply it. But no, you go ahead and hide behind semantics, that's cool.
And yes, I do think that Apple has done some real groundbreaking marketing. Typically they take one gimmick and build the system around it, but ultimately they fail because of that. It happened with the Mac, iPod and iPhone. Each of them started out with one or two gimmicks that cause it to sell well. Then they don't know what to do with it and someone like Microsoft comes along and eats their lunch.
LOL. You think because a handful of companies have used Hypercard that it was more of a game changer than Microsoft's VB? I'll assume you're joking. That's just rich.
"Don't give a flying crap about a mousewheel"
You're just jealous because your favorite company _still_ sells laptops with one mouse button (oh and multi-touch that doesn't amount to much more than a marketing gimmick just like the dock and expose).
"This thread isn't about Microsoft."
Really? I don't think anyone got that memo, take a look at some of the comments genius.
I finally figured it out: You can start dragging a file and then activate Expose.... but you can't just drop the file onto the picture of the window that Expose shows you... you have to wait a full one second for the window to flash and then it lets you drop the file. Whew!
Thanks for your answers, you remained quite calm in the face of my terrible /. nickname and my somewhat gruff demeanor. Thank you :)
Yeah Expose is so great that it shows every fucking window but in a different spot and a different size depending on what you've moved. Brilliant.
Point and match. Flamebait.
"I'm a prepress operator at a mid-size printing company and in addition to my normal duties I also maintain all the workstations, servers and network infrastructure for my department in my spare time."
Congratulations. How do you interact with the interface though? The answer is what defines a power user, not your mistaken idea that it depends on what your duties are around the office.
And if you're MIS department can't keep an email system up that's just bad management. It's not like it's the operating system's fault. Do YOU run a heavily trafficked email or MIS server with Macs?
"Ummm, no, Apple did that first, with Hypercard, in 1986 or '87."
Really? So, lot's of businesses used Hypercard for about 10 years like they did with VB and MSVC and COM (which created a multi-million user third party component market)?
"First to incorporate the mouse? Not Microsoft"
You misread that. I said mouse WHEEL.
"First to incorporate a GUI? Not Microsoft"
Nope. But, the first to popularize a GUI that ran on commodity hardware. There's a difference.
First to make REAL use of USB? Not Microsoft.
First to ditch the floppy? Not Microsoft.
Nope. Nope. But, you're not seeing my point here. You're trying to take something away from Microsoft. I'm not trying to take anything away from Apple's accomplishments.
I'm okay with you saying that Apple does some things very well. They do. But, you can't seriously sit there and say that Microsoft hasn't had as much (if not more) of an impact on business (and play) as we know it.
There are lots of differences between power users and regular users.
The Mac is not for power users. It simply can't keep up.
In the Mac OS you can put a "Delete" toolbar button in the Finder window, but you can't use the "Delete" key to delete a file. You press the "Enter" key to rename a file instead of opening (entering) it and you press a non-control key combination (Cmd+tilde) to switch between windows within one application.
When a window is not minimized, there is no representation of it in the dock.
Makes sense right?
Wrong again.
But it is interesting to me how you seem to think that insulting someone proves a point.
It's pretty weak actually.
BTW, you can't _just_ drop the file into the Expose'd window. You have to sit there and wait a full SECOND for the window to get focus. Yeah, that's real good for the old work flow.
Sorry, it's the Apple developers that have their head up their collective asses not me.
Oh man, you really got me there. Your post was filled with so much knowledge, I bow down to you sir.
Go ahead, try dragging a file and then activating expose and dropping the file into a TextEdit window. Did it work? Nope. But you go on with your bad self. Those insults are really making me look stupid.
"Apple did groundbreaking things, and challenged conventional wisdoms about computers and software"
Oh puhleeeeaze. And Microsoft didn't? They were the ones that popularized an OS that ran on commodity hardware. If we'd gotten stuck with the Apple way, we have _absolutely_ no choice in anything.
Microsoft also revolutionized the rapid development of software with things like Visual Basic and COM.
Another small thing that Microsoft did was to popularize the mouse wheel. That's right.
"Why do you think things like Photoshop and desktop publishing took off first on the Mac?"
Because the OS was bundled with hardware that supported more colors than the IBM hardware of the day. And if you're going to use that as a weapon... Why do you think Adobe releases modern versions of Photoshop for Windows first?
Ummm, you talked about it just as much as he did so that was a pretty pathetic come-back if you ask me.
That is completely false.
I'm sitting in front of a Macbook Pro right now and I can honestly say that not being able to do things like "drag a file into a window being shown in Expose" hurts. Especially since it's so easy to do in Windows (drag file to taskbar item then to the window).
Also, the OSuX has too many two-handed keyboard shortcuts where the equivalent in Windows is a one-handed shortcut.
In short, the OSuX.
I think that the taskbar scales well since you can give it two or three rows if you want. With Expose, when you activate it, the windows are never in the same spot (or the same size) if the number of windows has changed. So it doesn't take advantage of muscle memory very well.
Also, I can drag a file to the taskbar item of the window that I want to drop it in, when the window gets focus I drop the file on the window. Can you do something like that with Expose? I tried it on my Macbook Pro and it didn't work but maybe there's a secret key combo?
And what's up with the weird symbols in Apple's control/option/command key system prefs and everywhere else that a key combo is shown? I can never remember which symbol goes with which key because the MBP keyboard doesn't have the symbols printed on them.
Don't get me wrong: Apple does some things really well. For instance, I love the fact that you can just boot from an external usb drive. But, when it comes to interface they fail. The dock and expose fail, but they are kept around because "they sell". But guess what that makes them? Gimmicks.
Sure it does. You have to take some action to see the list of all windows. I don't.
Also, the taskbar is better because it's immediately discoverable. Expose requires the user to know that it exists in the first place.
Those options just seem more complicated to me than simply glancing at the taskbar and then clicking once on the appropriate item.
Incorrect.
In the software world there's a HUGE difference between "a taskbar with a button for each application" and "a finder menu that lists each open application in a drop-down menu". Apple knows this very well.
Furthermore, regarding the trash bin - the technique of "representing a software process by metaphor" was already well established. The fact that Apple tried to patent/trademark/whatever this ONE instance of it was a pretty weak move by Apple, which is why they failed.
They should have been competing based on something important like actual technical capabilities, but they couldn't so they simply got OWNED by Microsoft (literally).
No, the _application_ is represented by that icon, not the _window_. If I open 3 windows, there's still only 1 application icon.
So, I say again... how does it make sense that there is a special place for /individual minimized windows/ but not an open window?
Why treat minimized windows differently than open windows? Not treating them the same is more complicated.