Re:What does the hell does NP Hard mean?
on
Pac-Man Is NP-Hard
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· Score: 1
This page is much easier to understand, yes, but the concept initially made my brain want to bash that example lady in the face with her own rocks 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 different ways. Is that problem NP-Hard too?
Hmm. I like your argument, but to play devil's advocate: could it be that a more complex game system allows for exponentially more solutions to a linearly more complex path structure? It seems like providing a consistently difficult gaming experience is much more difficult as you provide player characters with more complex.
Giving a player to have a minimal set of actions would seem to limit the player's ability to exploit weaknesses or find shortcuts in the path to solving a problem. As a for instance, if Pac-Man could apply damage over time effects to Inky, Pinky, Blinky, or Dot, Blizzard would nerf him.
You should try Demon's Souls. Spend an hour or two a week and it won't disappoint. Get a used copy from Gamestop or some such. Lots of folks gave up on it in the beginning as being too hard, so there's plenty of cheap used ones. Got mine for $14, and picked up Dark Souls (sort of a sequel, haven't tried it yet) when I found out how good Demon's Souls is.
I'm working through Demon's Souls, and then Dark Souls, right now, actually.
Brutally difficult games for the PS3, and like the days of yore, if you die, you start the level over. The only "save" spots are boss kills, which really demand you to be at your best. Most fights require you to dance around the boss for a while to see how it's going to kill you (and, boy, will it kill you good). Most bosses have dozens of subtle patterns, requiring you to have quick reflexes, to pay attention, and to devise your own survival techniques; even the walkthroughs basically say "do what you can to live. I got nothin specific except survive and counterattack."
I can't quite put my finger on why, but even when you die and have to restart a level, you don't feel that "SMASH CONTROLLER NOW" feeling like most of the older die-and-do-it-again type games. When you die, you are punished by losing all of your game currency, with ONE chance to get to your body safely to recover it. Death is risky, especially if you find you're in over your head. Do you risk going back to get your hard earned soul-cash, or do abandon it and tackle a different challenge, honing your skills to exact revenge on what just murdered you at a later time? It almost feels like a rescue mission for your own body, and there's something truly satisfying about the game demanding you do a better job the second time around, or punishing you a second time for not getting better. This risk is part of what makes you want to avoid death in the first place - it feels great to be given that second chance and picking up the spare, so to speak, but it feels better to get in and get the careful strike in the first place.
Here's a description from an early adventure of mine: I am walking through an underground mine with my oh-so-lovely flame-resistance shield up at all times, knowing full well that any monster I encounter will kill me if I'm not careful, and I'm on the watch for new beasts and surprises. Still, I also know that I am well equipped for survival with an arsenal of skills I have honed and continue to perfect. Using these skills I defend and counterattack my way through traps, ambushes, and swarms of enemies, earning my way to a truly awesome boss named Flamelurker, a fire demon that announces it's presence with blood curdling cry and the confidence that comes from a lifetime of experience killing folks just like me, flame-resistance or not. I'm a heavily armored temple knight, and he handily serves my ass to me on a platter. I just can't seem to move quickly enough to avoid his overwhelming and super-quick attackes. I'm forced to navigate my way back to him, carefully defending and attacking, parrying and thrusting, through the hordes again, the whole time pondering my strategy. This time will be different.... but oh, no.... I forgot about that ambush and my reflexes are a moment too slow to save my life... Ok, I tell myself, head in the game this time. That distraction just cost me 30,000 souls, but I'm not mad or disappointed... I know why this happened, and the game is playing by rules that it taught me early on, and that it consistently and efficiently enforces. I delve into the dungeon again, this time putting off thinking about strategy as best I can, until I near the boss. I decide on a light-armor hit and run technique, which allows me to survive long enough to practice and perfect which moves work best. Now the tables have turned. I perfect my attack to the point that there is no defense. Once learned, my new ability (not a "skill point"; a literal new ability that *I* learned, not some "spell" the game granted me) is so powerful that I devastate my nemesis with nary a healing potion required. The best part? Better even than the vast rewards from killing demon in the first place? The technique learned above is now potentially useful in ANY future situation I encounter, and I can add it to my toolbox accordingly.
None of this discusses the ingenious multiplayer options, which allow adrenaline pu
Agreed. Still, just because the specific case was well reasoned and the judge correctly arrived at the "hey, that guy IS a fucktard, good call." decision correctly, does NOT mean that the precedent isn't terrible.
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This page is much easier to understand, yes, but the concept initially made my brain want to bash that example lady in the face with her own rocks 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 different ways. Is that problem NP-Hard too?
Hmm. I like your argument, but to play devil's advocate: could it be that a more complex game system allows for exponentially more solutions to a linearly more complex path structure? It seems like providing a consistently difficult gaming experience is much more difficult as you provide player characters with more complex. Giving a player to have a minimal set of actions would seem to limit the player's ability to exploit weaknesses or find shortcuts in the path to solving a problem. As a for instance, if Pac-Man could apply damage over time effects to Inky, Pinky, Blinky, or Dot, Blizzard would nerf him.
You should try Demon's Souls. Spend an hour or two a week and it won't disappoint. Get a used copy from Gamestop or some such. Lots of folks gave up on it in the beginning as being too hard, so there's plenty of cheap used ones. Got mine for $14, and picked up Dark Souls (sort of a sequel, haven't tried it yet) when I found out how good Demon's Souls is.
I'm working through Demon's Souls, and then Dark Souls, right now, actually.
Brutally difficult games for the PS3, and like the days of yore, if you die, you start the level over. The only "save" spots are boss kills, which really demand you to be at your best. Most fights require you to dance around the boss for a while to see how it's going to kill you (and, boy, will it kill you good). Most bosses have dozens of subtle patterns, requiring you to have quick reflexes, to pay attention, and to devise your own survival techniques; even the walkthroughs basically say "do what you can to live. I got nothin specific except survive and counterattack."
I can't quite put my finger on why, but even when you die and have to restart a level, you don't feel that "SMASH CONTROLLER NOW" feeling like most of the older die-and-do-it-again type games. When you die, you are punished by losing all of your game currency, with ONE chance to get to your body safely to recover it. Death is risky, especially if you find you're in over your head. Do you risk going back to get your hard earned soul-cash, or do abandon it and tackle a different challenge, honing your skills to exact revenge on what just murdered you at a later time? It almost feels like a rescue mission for your own body, and there's something truly satisfying about the game demanding you do a better job the second time around, or punishing you a second time for not getting better. This risk is part of what makes you want to avoid death in the first place - it feels great to be given that second chance and picking up the spare, so to speak, but it feels better to get in and get the careful strike in the first place.
Here's a description from an early adventure of mine: I am walking through an underground mine with my oh-so-lovely flame-resistance shield up at all times, knowing full well that any monster I encounter will kill me if I'm not careful, and I'm on the watch for new beasts and surprises. Still, I also know that I am well equipped for survival with an arsenal of skills I have honed and continue to perfect. Using these skills I defend and counterattack my way through traps, ambushes, and swarms of enemies, earning my way to a truly awesome boss named Flamelurker, a fire demon that announces it's presence with blood curdling cry and the confidence that comes from a lifetime of experience killing folks just like me, flame-resistance or not. I'm a heavily armored temple knight, and he handily serves my ass to me on a platter. I just can't seem to move quickly enough to avoid his overwhelming and super-quick attackes. I'm forced to navigate my way back to him, carefully defending and attacking, parrying and thrusting, through the hordes again, the whole time pondering my strategy. This time will be different.... but oh, no.... I forgot about that ambush and my reflexes are a moment too slow to save my life... Ok, I tell myself, head in the game this time. That distraction just cost me 30,000 souls, but I'm not mad or disappointed... I know why this happened, and the game is playing by rules that it taught me early on, and that it consistently and efficiently enforces. I delve into the dungeon again, this time putting off thinking about strategy as best I can, until I near the boss. I decide on a light-armor hit and run technique, which allows me to survive long enough to practice and perfect which moves work best. Now the tables have turned. I perfect my attack to the point that there is no defense. Once learned, my new ability (not a "skill point"; a literal new ability that *I* learned, not some "spell" the game granted me) is so powerful that I devastate my nemesis with nary a healing potion required. The best part? Better even than the vast rewards from killing demon in the first place? The technique learned above is now potentially useful in ANY future situation I encounter, and I can add it to my toolbox accordingly.
None of this discusses the ingenious multiplayer options, which allow adrenaline pu
Agreed. Still, just because the specific case was well reasoned and the judge correctly arrived at the "hey, that guy IS a fucktard, good call." decision correctly, does NOT mean that the precedent isn't terrible.