Well, yes, I agree. C# on top of Mono will not be the "officially preferred" (whatever that is) way to develop Gnome apps. From the start (ever since the initial CORBA-based architecture), Gnome has been about choice in programming language. So I don't foresee Gnome ever recommending a single environment for application development: I agree with you here.
But that's not my point. My point is that 1) Ximian is the second most powerful company involved in Gnome and their influence is difficult to underestimate (for example, in the latest foundation elections, Ximian was the only company to have people excluded because of the affiliation clause). And, as you point out, Miguel (and Nat and Mike Meeks and Luis Villa and...) does carry a lot of weight in the community. They will be, and are, pushing Mono a lot.
And 2) C# is just a *so much* better development language than C and C++. There's just no reason whatsoever to write an app in C/C++ if the C# bindings are good (which I'm sure Miguel and Ximian's expertise will guarantee). Your point about Python is well made, but there will always be times when people decide (correctly or not) against Python for performance or project scalability reasons.
These two things combined, I believe will make C# take the Gnome world completely. And, I think this is not a turn of events that Sun would favor.
What I do not understand is how Sun could let the Gnome opportunity slip!
Sun announced several years ago that they would be standardizing on Gnome for their enterprise desktops. They have made significant contributions since then (let's not be fooled: none of these recent public sector / governmental success stories would have been possible without Sun's accessibility work). When they decided to go with Gnome, they already had a production JVM for Linux that equalled the Windows and Solaris (in that order) virtual machines in performance and stability.
When they went with Gnome, Microsoft had long been banging the.NET / C# drum and Miguel had allocated his devoted team of Mono hackers at Ximian with the explicit intent of bringing a modern programming language, C#, to Linux and integrate it tightly with Gnome.
And Sun does nothing! This is an impossible equation to me:
Sun hates Microsoft above all.
The biggest threat from Microsoft is.NET and C#. [1]
Therefore, Sun hates.NET and C# above all.
Sun wants to push Gnome as the desktop platform of the future.
There's a big movement within Gnome to make.NET and C# the ubiquitos programming environment in Gnome.
Therefore, Sun will push a desktop platform which at its core[2] will have Mono and C#.
1] Because it invades Sun's most priced asset: the Java and J2EE mindshare.
2] Maybe not technically, at least not yet, but well in developer mindshare.
I don't understand how Sun can let this happen. That's where Java should be! Everything is prepared: all underlying frameworks are in place (industrial-strength JVM on Linux, the new GTK Swing LF, some native Gnome/GTK-Java integration already works, JVM sharing in the pipeline), it's a great way to bring Java to the desktop masses (without having to go through a hostile monopoly) and if Sun doesn't do it, very soon every one will be using their shiny "Java Desktop Systems" to build GTK# applications in.NET on top of Mono.
So I say to Sun:
Let Java free! You will never get full community and Gnome acceptance until you do.
Allocate tons of resources to integrating Java with Gnome! And we want real bindings, a buggy Swing Look and Feel is not enough! When a developer sits down to build a Gnome app, they should want to use Java because it's so easy and powerful and well integrated.
Let people use gcj, GCC's Java-to-native compiler, to produce native binaries from their Java Gnome apps, they're already building for one desktop so screw Write-Once-Run-Anywhere!
Make your client JVM so good that there's no need to. You're almost there already, most Java apps are today equal to or faster than their C/C++ counterparts on the server side. If Swing hadn't been such a hog and you could tweak that JVM startup time some more, no one would notice the difference on the client-side either.
This may slow down Microsoft's emerging dominance on the free desktop and make that "Java Desktop" brand of yours more than just a PR move.
I don't believe there is one. I'm not entirely certain, but I did have quite a thorough look around back when I bought my new Q3 battle rat.:) Remember, though, that if you use USB you don't need to worry, the standard sampling rate of a USB mouse is 125Hz which should be plenty enough for all yer gaming needs.
I'm sitting at a friend's, hacking away at our current pet project while listening to Wish you were here. It's good, but it's not even close to The Wall.
(And yes, this *is* OT but at least his department choice invited to it!)
Please don't mod this guy as a troll. What he says is very true. I think it'd be a better idea to link mozilla-related project news to mozilla.org, mozdev or mozillazine rather than to the malevolent mozillaquest.com.
I don't really know the story behind it, but I've noticed (during years of following the mozilla project as nothing but an end-user) that most "news" or info from mozillaquest.com have been very hostile to mozilla.org and the mozilla browser. Does anyone care to shed some light on the whole situation?
Raph Koster has a very interesting behind-the-scenish snippet titled "MMORPG, Business Models 101" about the costs involved in running an MMORPG. It's on his website under Gaming->Snippets or here (sorry for linking into a frameset). Very informative and yes, it does bring up advertising (albeit briefly).
Me too! It was tons of fun, until one of us figured out how to construct a bot that ALWAYS won. I seem to recall a version of CoreWars for tinyASM as well. Fun times...
I'd assume that the point is to explore other options to the (two-dimensional) desktop metaphor that is the standard across all workstation UIs today, from MacOS to MS Windows to X. There has been some research and projects in this field earlier, but it's only with recent year's leaps in processing power that these things might start to matter to Mr Joe Avg. I suppose that, and the fact that it's a cool hack, is the "point."
> But I'm sure I won't buy a DVD player, so >I'll never be able to buy PM or any movie in >that format. It's my little act of protest.
I think an even better way of protesting would be to not buy any VHS movies from Lucasart. Then you could even buy a DVD player and buy tons of other DVDs.
Argo/UML is an excellent tool for UML modelling. It's still a work-in-progress and does not yet have the power one can expect from enterprise-strength tools such as Rational Rose and Together/J -- but it's a nice start, it's Open Source and it's a a fully functional client application written in Java.
It supports UML class diagrams, export to gifs (nice for publishing your designs on the project web page), code generation, todo-lists and some experimental cognitive stuff that analyzes your design decisions and provide feedback on your choices. I don't trust the AI stuff too much (if a machine is better at object-oriented design than I am, then for how long will I have a job?) but the rest is useful.
Also, does Red Hat support the Highpoint HPT366 ATA/66 chip?
The HPT366 patch is in the 2.3.x kernels and will thus not be available until 2.4 is released. However, there are at least two ways for you to get access to your extra HDs without being forced to run a development kernel:
Without rebuilding the kernel: Use the backward compatibility of the IDE controller and boot up LILO with a command similar to ide2=0xd800,0xd807. That'll force the kernel to detect whatever disk you have on the first HPT366 controller and you won't have to recompile the kernel. But you'll loose UDMA/66 and will have to do with the normal 33Mb/s transfer rate.
Get the HPT366 patch from here, patch and rebuild kernel 2.2.14 and you're set to go.
As far as server based applications Java is CRAP. As my boss put it "you could throw that thing on a 128 proccessor symmetric server and it would instantly consume ALL of the processor cycles."
I strongly disagree. I have a multi-user server application written in Java running on my Linux box. It scales to 2500-3000 concurrent connections (and probably more, but that's the max I've got so far) on mid-range Intel hardware. And that's on a JVM that is roughly 50-60% as fast as the industry-leading JVMs (Sun's JDK1.2 for Linux).
If what you say is true -- and I have no reasons to doubt that -- something else has to be seriously wrong with your project. What JVM did you use? Have you profiled the code? Sounds to me that it's a programmer error rather than a platform/language error (no offense).
I hear ye, brother! I'm going to order a new Linux box (my first computer dedicated to Linux, yay me!) in a few hours and now I'm replace my Intel Etherexpress NIC with a card from 3Com.
Just out of curiousity, what application server is that? I use a whole bunch of them at work and some are good, some are better and quite a few suck pretty bad. As a side note, even the sucky ones generally provide a more productive environment than anything else we've tried that was written in Perl or C. Kinda puts things in perspective, especially seeing Mr Malda's offhand and ignorant comment about the usefulness of Java. But anyways, care to share what application server you're talking about?
I think it was meant as a fine way of critizing the so called "American way of life," which many Europeans (including myself) believe is a deadly serious threat to mankind's future on earth. As my old American gov't teacher used to say, the citizens of United States constitute about 5% of the total world population (?) while consuming *one third* of the world's resources. The "American way of life" would maybe be more appropriately be called the "American way to death."
Hugo is a nice system, great with a Linux port. I haven't actually played a Hugo system but I've studied it from a MUD coder's perspective and it has a lot of nice features. (Cool parsing, for instance.)
Well, Sir, thy supposition dost be false. Actually, I'm Swedish and I generally agree with what you say. I normally use more formal and more correct English in writing than I do in speaking (partly because when I write I have time to really think through what I'm saying, when I speak I'm fully occupied just trying to get the other end to understand me) but I have to admit that my involvement in MUDs and IRC has tainted that a bit.
But I'm shocked, good Sir! For pronounciation, surely you must turn to Oxford's "The Advanced Learner's Dictionary of Current English" rather than the standard dictionary?
Slashdot Mirror
Well, yes, I agree. C# on top of Mono will not be the "officially preferred" (whatever that is) way to develop Gnome apps. From the start (ever since the initial CORBA-based architecture), Gnome has been about choice in programming language. So I don't foresee Gnome ever recommending a single environment for application development: I agree with you here.
...) does carry a lot of weight in the community. They will be, and are, pushing Mono a lot.
But that's not my point. My point is that 1) Ximian is the second most powerful company involved in Gnome and their influence is difficult to underestimate (for example, in the latest foundation elections, Ximian was the only company to have people excluded because of the affiliation clause). And, as you point out, Miguel (and Nat and Mike Meeks and Luis Villa and
And 2) C# is just a *so much* better development language than C and C++. There's just no reason whatsoever to write an app in C/C++ if the C# bindings are good (which I'm sure Miguel and Ximian's expertise will guarantee). Your point about Python is well made, but there will always be times when people decide (correctly or not) against Python for performance or project scalability reasons.
These two things combined, I believe will make C# take the Gnome world completely. And, I think this is not a turn of events that Sun would favor.
Sun announced several years ago that they would be standardizing on Gnome for their enterprise desktops. They have made significant contributions since then (let's not be fooled: none of these recent public sector / governmental success stories would have been possible without Sun's accessibility work). When they decided to go with Gnome, they already had a production JVM for Linux that equalled the Windows and Solaris (in that order) virtual machines in performance and stability.
When they went with Gnome, Microsoft had long been banging the .NET / C# drum and Miguel had allocated his devoted team of Mono hackers at Ximian with the explicit intent of bringing a modern programming language, C#, to Linux and integrate it tightly with Gnome.
And Sun does nothing! This is an impossible equation to me:
1] Because it invades Sun's most priced asset: the Java and J2EE mindshare.
2] Maybe not technically, at least not yet, but well in developer mindshare.
I don't understand how Sun can let this happen. That's where Java should be! Everything is prepared: all underlying frameworks are in place (industrial-strength JVM on Linux, the new GTK Swing LF, some native Gnome/GTK-Java integration already works, JVM sharing in the pipeline), it's a great way to bring Java to the desktop masses (without having to go through a hostile monopoly) and if Sun doesn't do it, very soon every one will be using their shiny "Java Desktop Systems" to build GTK# applications in .NET on top of Mono.
So I say to Sun:
- Let Java free! You will never get full community and Gnome acceptance until you do.
- Allocate tons of resources to integrating Java with Gnome! And we want real bindings, a buggy Swing Look and Feel is not enough! When a developer sits down to build a Gnome app, they should want to use Java because it's so easy and powerful and well integrated.
- Let people use gcj, GCC's Java-to-native compiler, to produce native binaries from their Java Gnome apps, they're already building for one desktop so screw Write-Once-Run-Anywhere!
- Make your client JVM so good that there's no need to. You're almost there already, most Java apps are today equal to or faster than their C/C++ counterparts on the server side. If Swing hadn't been such a hog and you could tweak that JVM startup time some more, no one would notice the difference on the client-side either.
This may slow down Microsoft's emerging dominance on the free desktop and make that "Java Desktop" brand of yours more than just a PR move.-EE
I don't believe there is one. I'm not entirely certain, but I did have quite a thorough look around back when I bought my new Q3 battle rat. :) Remember, though, that if you use USB you don't need to worry, the standard sampling rate of a USB mouse is 125Hz which should be plenty enough for all yer gaming needs.
This will not do. Call in the school master!
I'm sitting at a friend's, hacking away at our current pet project while listening to Wish you were here. It's good, but it's not even close to The Wall.
(And yes, this *is* OT but at least his department choice invited to it!)
Please don't mod this guy as a troll. What he says is very true. I think it'd be a better idea to link mozilla-related project news to mozilla.org, mozdev or mozillazine rather than to the malevolent mozillaquest.com.
I don't really know the story behind it, but I've noticed (during years of following the mozilla project as nothing but an end-user) that most "news" or info from mozillaquest.com have been very hostile to mozilla.org and the mozilla browser. Does anyone care to shed some light on the whole situation?
Raph Koster has a very interesting behind-the-scenish snippet titled "MMORPG, Business Models 101" about the costs involved in running an MMORPG. It's on his website under Gaming->Snippets or here (sorry for linking into a frameset). Very informative and yes, it does bring up advertising (albeit briefly).
Me too! It was tons of fun, until one of us figured out how to construct a bot that ALWAYS won. I seem to recall a version of CoreWars for tinyASM as well. Fun times...
I'd assume that the point is to explore other options to the (two-dimensional) desktop metaphor that is the standard across all workstation UIs today, from MacOS to MS Windows to X. There has been some research and projects in this field earlier, but it's only with recent year's leaps in processing power that these things might start to matter to Mr Joe Avg. I suppose that, and the fact that it's a cool hack, is the "point."
Which, incidentally, doesn't have any assertions. :)
All your Dell 5000e are belong to us.
>I'll never be able to buy PM or any movie in
>that format. It's my little act of protest.
I think an even better way of protesting would be to not buy any VHS movies from Lucasart. Then you could even buy a DVD player and buy tons of other DVDs.
> And call me chirs, I'm only 28 for gods sake.
So what's up, chirs?
Did someone say Open Source muds?
It supports UML class diagrams, export to gifs (nice for publishing your designs on the project web page), code generation, todo-lists and some experimental cognitive stuff that analyzes your design decisions and provide feedback on your choices. I don't trust the AI stuff too much (if a machine is better at object-oriented design than I am, then for how long will I have a job?) but the rest is useful.
Check it out at argouml.org.
They also recently joined the Tigris team which seem to produce some other nice tools, but I haven't looked into them.
The HPT366 patch is in the 2.3.x kernels and will thus not be available until 2.4 is released. However, there are at least two ways for you to get access to your extra HDs without being forced to run a development kernel:
- Without rebuilding the kernel: Use the backward compatibility of the IDE controller and boot up LILO with a command similar to ide2=0xd800,0xd807. That'll force the kernel to detect whatever disk you have on the first HPT366 controller and you won't have to recompile the kernel. But you'll loose UDMA/66 and will have to do with the normal 33Mb/s transfer rate.
- Get the HPT366 patch from here, patch and rebuild kernel 2.2.14 and you're set to go.
Check out the Linux HPT366 mini-HOWTO for more information.I strongly disagree. I have a multi-user server application written in Java running on my Linux box. It scales to 2500-3000 concurrent connections (and probably more, but that's the max I've got so far) on mid-range Intel hardware. And that's on a JVM that is roughly 50-60% as fast as the industry-leading JVMs (Sun's JDK1.2 for Linux).
If what you say is true -- and I have no reasons to doubt that -- something else has to be seriously wrong with your project. What JVM did you use? Have you profiled the code? Sounds to me that it's a programmer error rather than a platform/language error (no offense).
Why not XFS? Is it not production-quality yet? (Would surprise me if it isn't.)
I hear ye, brother! I'm going to order a new Linux box (my first computer dedicated to Linux, yay me!) in a few hours and now I'm replace my Intel Etherexpress NIC with a card from 3Com.
Does Foogle own shares in RHAT?
Just out of curiousity, what application server is that? I use a whole bunch of them at work and some are good, some are better and quite a few suck pretty bad. As a side note, even the sucky ones generally provide a more productive environment than anything else we've tried that was written in Perl or C. Kinda puts things in perspective, especially seeing Mr Malda's offhand and ignorant comment about the usefulness of Java. But anyways, care to share what application server you're talking about?
I think it was meant as a fine way of critizing the so called "American way of life," which many Europeans (including myself) believe is a deadly serious threat to mankind's future on earth. As my old American gov't teacher used to say, the citizens of United States constitute about 5% of the total world population (?) while consuming *one third* of the world's resources. The "American way of life" would maybe be more appropriately be called the "American way to death."
Nice to hear this kinda stuff. Ever since the Mindcraft fiasko, the NT clerks at work have been harassing me. Let's see how they respond to this.
Hugo is a nice system, great with a Linux port. I haven't actually played a Hugo system but I've studied it from a MUD coder's perspective and it has a lot of nice features. (Cool parsing, for instance.)
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is the definition of "system software?" As opposed to what? "Regular" software?
Well, Sir, thy supposition dost be false. Actually, I'm Swedish and I generally agree with what you say. I normally use more formal and more correct English in writing than I do in speaking (partly because when I write I have time to really think through what I'm saying, when I speak I'm fully occupied just trying to get the other end to understand me) but I have to admit that my involvement in MUDs and IRC has tainted that a bit.
But I'm shocked, good Sir! For pronounciation, surely you must turn to Oxford's "The Advanced Learner's Dictionary of Current English" rather than the standard dictionary?