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ESR's Open Letter to McNealy: Set Java Free!
yukster writes "Eric Raymond has posted an open letter to Sun Microsystem's Scott McNealy asking him to 'Let Java go.' He says Sun can 'have ubiquity or [it] can have control.' The excellent improvements made to Java in the upcoming 1.5 release help re-level the playing field with C#. But, it seems like if Sun really wants Java to rule the world, they should heed ESR's advice. Hey Mr. McNealy, listen to this guy... set Java free!"
...would you give away the only technology that might possibly save your company from bankrupcy?
If you have been following gcj's progress recently it is maturing rapidly, just give those dirty gnu hippies a few more years they'll be on par with Sun's own implimentation.
Gcj is far more mature than mono is.
What is the point of writing an open letter, particularly one as snarky as this? Does anybody think McNealy will see it, much less care?
...but not both. Good point. Except that Microsoft seemed to have managed both with Windows, Office, etc.
SUN knows exactly what cards they hold in their deck. While the letter does point out that SUN has much to gain, it is filled with nothing more than well wishing and potential profits. SUN already owns the source, and it will take more than a "if we work togeather as friends" to get them to assist in the continued expansion of the Open Source community.
The cards are all in their deck. Open Source needs to provide something more profitable than a "cant we all get along" letter.
Money talks...
My Thoughts, Kyndig
What do you expect the guys at sun to do if they turn the development of Java over to the open-source community? Sure, open standards are great, and so is OSS, but don't forget, Sun is a commercial entity that needs to make money. Why would anyone invest in Sun or take them seriously when they don't exercise control over their flagship product anymore? If you want a free, open language, try using c++ with gcc. I'm sure the good folks at Sun like trying to make the best possible software, but you can't expect them to destroy their company for a shot at making their software even better.
But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
Java is already more ubiquitious than C# -- so what would Sun stand to gain from setting it free? For all intents and purposes, it's as free as I need it to be. I have full access to the Sun's source code for the JVM and the Java classes. I can use it the JVM for free in commercial applications. I have many different virtual machine implementations to choose from, on a wide variety of platforms. I'm afraid that setting Java "free" is going to lead to future revisions of the language being designed by committee -- we don't need another C++ thank you very much.
Sun needs its tight control over Java in order to, well, tightly control it. Remember what happened when Microsoft tried to "embrace and extend" Java with Windows extentions, Sun was able to kick Microsoft completely out of the Java business.
Open Source would allow Microsoft to create WinJava so long as they released the source, which might not be that hard of a thing to do. I don't think Sun wants to go there...
Comeon McNealy! Follow Microsofts lead, set java free!
I always thought Sun's tight control over Java was so that they could keep Microsoft from polluting it, using their usual 'embace, extend, extinguish' method.
After all, Sun did force MS to change their product name from Java to J++, since it did not follow the spec.
Even if such a tragedy would not recur, can you blame Sun for being paranoid?
Practice Kind Randomness and Beautiful Acts of Nonsense.
I thought this was a bit of a nasty post when I first read it. But then upon re-reading I note you didn't add that he should pull the trigger.. so not as nasty as it could have been, I'm a little relieved.
Setting Java Free was actually Gosling's idea first, but the idea is correct. It should be free as in open source.
Maybe the critical path to being able to think simply involves being able to listen to ideas regardless of your personal feelings toward the messenger? Give the ideas some thought - it makes sense.
All Ad hominem replies happily ignored as the sender shall be deemed to lack the faculties to comprehend the equation.
Java is a major part of Sun, and they're not going to give that up, ever. While they'll be as open as necessary (Java Community Process, free access to view source code of Java, etc), they stop at giving up corporate control of Java.
Microsoft are just the same with C#, they're just being slightly more deceitful about it -- they try and say C# is "more open" than Java, but when it comes down to it, both languages and frameworks are owned by their corporate master.
Eric makes good analogies between Java and NFS, and Java and Jini.
SO there. Nothing insightful, just a quick "Me, too!".
Cheers!
"The only good windmill is a tilted windmill."
On the one hand, Java is Sun's big remaining product, so they need to keep it theirs. On the other, the less it is used the less they can make off it, and loosening the grip will make more people use it.
Also, they need to keep an eye on the open-source implementations. If they squeeze too hard, many people will jump onto the GCJ project and possibly cut them out entirely (just like GCC really cut-out a lot of C compilers).
They either loose their revenue source, devalue their revenue source, or destroy their revenue source. There's no good thing for Sun to do here.
ESR,
Should keep his big mouth shut. Sun has put a ton of effort into making Java what it is today and it's a great product.
Of course Java has issues but what doesn't.
Java came along in the mid nineties and it was obvious that this language was what C++ should have been all along.
What does ESR want Java to become? Another language driven by the whims of a few programmers (probably picking their nose and doing some sort of thesis on the side) who have no idea what corporate computing really demands.
When ESR can contribute something as good as Java to the programming community at large then I'll listen to anything he has to say.
Caution: Contents under pressure
Hello Mr. ESR, "freedom for freedom's sake?"
Yes they are pros, but they are cons also for every argument. Gaining friends? what are you talking about? Yes setting Java free would make java a little better or maybe a lot better, only time will tell. But can Sun afford to do it. And it is not that Sun is one crappy guy who is forcing Java on people. Java is not bad. it is kinda okay too. I agree with allowing linux distros to include Java, but setting it open source may be good for Open Source community, but certainly a very very bad move for sun. Maybe 5 years down the like if sun regains server market share, churns out a killer processor, be the server king again, then yes it may make sense to make some portions Open Source. But till then it got to hang on, and i guess it will.
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
The Sun SDK comes with sources to the standard API classes, there are alternative opensource virtual machines and compilers available for Java and changes to the environment are made via the community process.
What is it that is being ask of Sun here?
Even in GPL style open source development there is a central core of people who decide which patches make it into the product and which dont.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the way Sun are managing Java as long as it remains freely available.
As for 1.5 helping to 'level the playing field' with C#, I dont think suitable credit is being given here. Java is ahead of C# in the vast majority of ways that count. All C# has done is formalize well know design patterns into syntax (delegates vs observer pattern). This is not worthy of accolade.
Make no mistake, it is Microsoft that is playing the catch-up game!
Sun was able to kick Microsoft completely out of the Java business. ...and MS was able to remove Java support from its default installation and blame Sun for forcing it out!
Yeah, that was really good for Java, and really helped it to compete against C#.
With dotnet the choice boils down to completely closed-source (Microsoft) or completely open-source (Mono).
Sun's half-arsed approach, cosy-up to open-source but keep Sun Java closed, has resulted in only limited attepmts to produce an open Java; why bother, since Sun seem friendly-enough?
Sun needs to start recognising dotnet as a threat and respond appropriately. Choose sides. Open or closed.
This is where the serious fun begins.
Because noone is listenning to my rants anyway.
:)
I I posted it a few times maybe ESR read it?
Well, I am posting it last time now.
I would like to see GNU/Linux to become a more powerful platform and by a more powerful platform I mean a platform that provides the user with a pleasant experience. Now, to provide a pleasant experience a platform must give the user a choice - a choice of applications that exist for the platform is a step in the right direction. However, GNU/Linux is not such a platform yet. If it were, it would have been embraced by the masses already and it is not. There are a few things that GNU/Linux system is lacking and one of the more important lacking components is a convenient tool that allows a novice create his/her own software for the platform, software that easily manipulates data imported from multiple sources and allows to create graphical interfaces to that data. In the Microsoft this functionality is provided by such a ubiquitous tool as Visual Basic. In the Free Software world there are many tools that are extremely powerful but none of them have the same kind of momentum that Visual Basic delivers on Microsoft platform. VB is taught at schools, it is the language of macros under MS platform.
To answer the question- "What can be the VB for Free Software?" we need to look at the kind of problems that will have to be solved by this tool. The problems solved by VB are of many kinds, but for the general public VB provides the bridge that closes the gap between a user and a multitude of small problems that the user wants to solve. Of-course it is possible to just create a VB IDE for FS platforms but I believe there is a more interesting solution to this problem and it is Java. Just like VB, Java runs in a virtual machine, so the user will never really have direct access to any hardware resources, but an abstract layer of JVM can provide a nice buffer between the user and the hardware and at the same time Java will always behave in the same way on multiple other platforms, including Windows. Java is an OO language but at the same time it is very easy to write functions in Java (static everything). Java has thousands of convenience libraries, there is enough Free Software written for Java that can be integrated into an IDE. However there is a big problem with the language itself - it is not Free.
Sun allows anyone to use Java for free but nobody can modify the language itself except for Sun. In order for Java to become for Free Software and Gnu/Linux what VB became for Microsoft, Java has to be Freed and put out under the GPL. There is also probably a good business sense in it for the Sun Microsystems as well - their language suddenly becomes the language of choice for millions and thousands will work on improving the language, the virtual machine, the compiler etc. In this case Sun will stay in a position that Linus finds himself in - they become the gate-keepers for the vanilla Java tree, but Java will branch and will become much more spread than it is right now. Sun can capitalize on that by providing more Java based solutions and services.
Now it is likely that Sun management will not agree to the change of their Java's status, however, if there was an immediately profitable reason for them to do this, they just may turn around and start thinking about it. A reason that is profitable could be a large sum of cash available to them upon releasing Java under the GPL. Where could this money come from? These money could be collected by the FS and OS supporters, the developers and the users who would like to see more momentum in the GNU/Linux movement towards a successful (wide spread) desktop solution. I suppose no one will seriously object to have one more powerful tool in their Free Software tool-bag. Java can be this tool and it can be just the thing needed to tip the scales over towards quick appearance of a useful and a popular GNU/Linux desktop.
* I use Free to mean Free Software (Libre) and I use free to mean free of charge.
You can't handle the truth.
What portion of their revenue comes from what sources? How much does Java generate, and how? How much does developing it cost them?
It's hard to get an accurate picture without asking some questions like these and getting answers. Otherwise, you can't make an informed judgement.
http://www.welton.it/davidw/
Read the patch and weep
Instead of taking, Eric Raymond thinks he can just ask rich to give all they have and earned?
MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
There must be a standardisation organization to controll the evolution of the java language so that it doesnt split up in to many fractions..
Sun is not in a position to make things free for strategic reasons. Their mandate is that every project within Sun must make money. Period. And yes, I know this will sink the company eventually. They are stuck in a short-term profit mentality and there is little we can do about it.
The Open Source implementations of Java are coming along well, and could catch up with a little help.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
This letter looks more like a bitch-fest than a serious open letter.
Anyone can implement their own version of Java. The spec is right out there. I encourage ESR to put his money where is mouth is, and do his own implementation if he's that concerned about it.
J2EE is doing great. Jini has a strong community behind it, and companies are using it.
If he's that concerned, he should quit trying to muscle companies into doing what he wants, get millions of dollars together, and then give it to programmers to do his bidding.
final and absolute control over what is in Java, or even what Java is, don't we degrade the idea of compile once, run anywhere?
I'm all for a more open Java, especially if it leads more developer control of what goes into Java, and wider acceptance.
But in the end, it must be overseen by some one, right now it's SUN, and Java must be Java, regardless of where you're getting the JVM, or where you're writing the code. Without that central control we risk more J++'s. "mostly java, but 'better', so it doesn't work with SUN Java..."
Dear Mr. Raymond,
Thank you for kind letter, but No way! Please accept this complementary javastation instead. We still have much inventory of these for some reason.
Oops. Wait. Wrong freedom fest...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
I like the fact that there is only one "branch" of java. I can write a program once and compile it anywhere. I hate C++ because I need #ifdef's everywhere in my code just so I can build it on other platforms/compilers. If someone feels that it is lacking, they should get involved in Sun's community.
Just my $.02
Sun is a public company answering to stock holders and Scott McNeely is a businessman. Relinquishing control of a company product withthe name recognition of Java is a gamble even a 'rogue" businessman like McNeely would be unlikely to do.
ESR seems to pick X vs NeWS and Jini. Note that at that time both examples are still in conception and relatively lack of adherents.
If you want to gain support rapidly, Open Source seems to win. However, things that already been established like Java, it is not necessarily like that, because Java has a lot of adherents and it's a mature platform already. Try to tell the same story for Windows or MS Office and see how Bill Gates would fall laughing.
And potential revenue multiplier is moot. Potential remains potential until it can be realized. Do you think that by open-sourcing Java would increase the sales for Sun's hardware? Give me a break.... Everyone knows that Java can run in any platform. The hardware platform selection to run Java squarely depends on price/performance and need.
--
Error 500: Internal sig error
Set Java Free!
End indentured servitude!
And it works on so many levels. Those Starbucks-sippin' twenty-somethings who think Apple==freedom will think you are a cool and hip political activist taking a stand on living wages for South American coffee harvesters!
Score!
(I wrote this yesterday and tried to post it as an article on /., but apparently there are so many more interesting and better written articles posted on the front page here that mine did not meet the qualifications to be posted. Or maybe it is just so off-topic and does not represent any real new ideas or news for nerds, you know, no stuff that matters is expressed in it, so don't read it.)
/. reminded us that there are other dangers that could stall the development of free software projects - an illegally distributed application source base can become the next battlefield for the free source community. Whether this source code could be distributed with an intent to contaminate is not the issue, the issue is that it is important to convey the message to the public that this community does not want to contaminate its source code with proprietary software. We know that the Linux kernel for example is maintained by a group of people who would never want to be faced with the problem of proving in the court of law that their creation is really their own code. What about other projects? How many lawsuits are comming towards this community? I do not know that. But I understand that some preventative measures should be taken, some measures that will clearly display that this community wants free software and free software will not be stolen from other source bases.
:)
I am sure that all of you would agree that the free software community has been facing some bad publicity since the entire SCO incident started about a year ago. I am also sure that when the SCO goes away another publicity stunt will be performed by some other corporation or an entity that could potentially cause more trouble. An earlier article on
How can this be ensured and how can it be easily shown in a court of law that this community takes copyright issues seriously? One way that I see is to set up a server that runs the comparator by ESR against any new submission to any open source project against any code released either by mistake on with malice by a closed source vendor.
This will help to identify copyright problems before they arise. Of course to have a proprietary source code base on this server would probably be illegal in itself but it is unnecessary to have the proprietary source code, all that is needed is a set of hash-keys that identify that source code.
How could this work? A copyright protection server (CPS) would have hash-keys supplied by different vendors of software that falls into various categories and the free software projects are also divided into these categories. Let's say there is a free software project that deals with image manipulations. The CPS would run a hash-key generator on the new code submission and then would compare the generated keys with the keys supplied by Adobe or other companies specialized in image manipulations. Of-course the closed source companies would have to run the hash-key generators on their code and supply their keys, and someone has to tell them to do that, but if it is done right then the following would happen:
1. The Free Software community would have better protection from inappropriate code submissions.
2. This can be publicised and shown that the Free Software community takes their work seriously and goes to the great length, much more than any corporations to make sure that their code is Free and free of inappropriate submissions.
3. In a court of law this can be very useful, it shows good faith on the part of the free software community.
4. This would make it easier to also figure out whether the closed source vendors are misusing GPLed software
5. This makes a nice project that can be commercialized (with all the lates IP propaganda and lawsuites.)
6. This hopefully will prevent many possible infringement claims.
Well, this is just a thought, but I think this kind of verification will become part of reality at some point in the future, given more lawsuites.
Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, ideas?
You can't handle the truth.
Okay, ESR is writing an open letter to a CEO of Sun. Why the *hell* is he comparing Red Hat and Sun by *share price*? Share price means effectively nothing when comparing company worth -- market capitalization is what should be looked at, as it takes into account the number of shares. RHAT's market cap is impressive, but it's still 1/6th Sun's, not the three times Sun's value that ESR implies when comparing share prices.
So, there are two possibilities that I see here.
A) ESR is unaware of the difference between share price and market cap. This seems a pretty awful knowledge hole. If he doesn't know, he just made himself look pretty dumb in front of some major business folks while advising them on business strategy. It's pretty embarrassing to consider that ESR can't even have had a savvy person read over his letters before he tries to speak for the open source community.
B) ESR knows what the difference is, and is hoping that "three times" sounds better. Since there is no *way* that ESR can fool a CEO into blindly going along with him (if there's one thing a CEO of a publically traded company knows, it's stock value), he must be putting this in the letter for the masses of people that are completely unversed in market economics, which pretty means *maybe* some high school and below kids. This is nothing more than a propaganda job. I'd view this as extremely disappointing, coming from someone who I consider capable of putting out good, straight arguments about open source. Propaganda does not work well on online forums. A few people inevitably punch holes in it, other folks spread the problems, and your argument is left without any meat. It happens to Microsoft all the time.
Either way, it's a disturbingly unprofessional job. It reads like some of the worse "I just sent this in to the company" Slashdot posts. For someone who is concerned about the business credibility of open source, ESR sure as hell isn't holding up his end of things.
He compares, in an incredibly simplified manner, three projects that Sun has done (throwing out all but one factor -- whether they were open source), and then claims that Sun should free Java. That's absurd. Sun execs will have gone over this in far more detail many times before, and the only thing this does is ensure that ESR emails go in the wastebasket. The fact that this letter is open makes it doubly embarassing.
I have deep respect for the work that ESR has done, and I like his famous study "The Cathedral and the Bazar". However, I really wish he'd refrain from writing open letters, or at *least* show them to a couple of people before blasting them off.
May we never see th
Hey Sun, we know what you think of GNU/Linux. Unix will be back. Really, it will! Everything is beautiful! Don't worry! Be happy! Customers will return to Solaris one day! After all, if Schwartz said it, it must be true.
and even Scott is a believer:
The "fad will wear off, and big business will come back to solaris".
Sun, don't worry, everything is great. Everybody else should wake up and smell the java
That's the kind of "you're either with us or against us" mentality I definitely don't want to see in the open source community.
It's the mindset of a fanatic.
The owls are not what they seem
Oh, that's what they are calling .Net today.
Karma Clown
Java should be opened up to the community, with compatibility standards strictly and ruthlessly enforced.
And maybe, just maybe, .Net could help it along.
The original reason for McNealy's reluctance to open up Java was the "embrace and extend" philosophy we all know so well from Redmond. But, could we expect MS to bother trying to modify Java and develop .Net at the same time?
MS could do it, they have the re$ources, but.. can they afford the mixed message it would send? "Java sucks, use .Net instead.. oh wait, here's our version of Java.."
Opening up Java could work, but only if MS is 100% committed to .Net, and if an officially open Java implementation wins overwhelming community support.
In short, don't expect Sun to open up Java until Microsoft runs the risk of falling into the "sunk cost trap". McNealy is probably well aware of this too..
--- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
...is: No more fence-sitting for you Sun! They simply can't have things both ways. Yes, OOo is a terrific project, but on the other hand they are feeding the SCO troll. In press releases they now expound on the virtues of open source - but their flagship Java, isn't.
Consistency is what ESR is pointing to here. Maybe it isn't his business to make any demands of Sun, but he's seen their past corporate history which is chock-full of missed opportunities.
If Sun doesn't fully embrace open source, others will, and have. Whether or not this makes a huge difference depends on your own opinion. Personally, I think they're on the right road with this Java Desktop thing. They've already had some high profile wins and it's a great corporate counter-balance to Windows on the desktop.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Fsck Java, python was BORN free!
'But the casual equation between "open source" and "zero revenue" suggests that on another level you don't really know what you're talking about. Open source is hardly a zero-revenue model; ask Red Hat, which had a share price over triple Sun's when I just checked.'
ESR's casual equation between "share price" and "value" suggests that he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Sun's market cap is 6 times Red Hat's!
But this is nitpicking. His larger point is good.
I have no idea whether Sun should let go of Java or not. But I don't think I'd accept any business advice from someone who compares company value by stock price.
No, I wouldn't. But I WOULD sell it to Apple, who could put it under their ASPL domain and open it up somewhat. Apple could bundle it with their iTunes/QuickTime installer on Win32 and there's be a LOT more JAVA installs out there.
It would really be the best of both worlds, we get the source and ability to improve it, and Apple distributes it much wider than Sun ever could.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
IIRC, he's still maintaining fetchmail.
He *is* getting more than a bit self-important, though. The last time I heard about him, he was advocating a "hacker symbol". Dammit, ESR, shut *up* for a while, and go have fun writing code or politicking or *something*. It takes forever to build up credibility, and a couple of silly open letters and articles to blow it. That may not be just, but such is life.
Just because open source is a good idea does not mean that open letters are always a good idea.
ESR, if you wanted to do this and actually do it *right* and maybe have an impact, you would have been *much* better off writing a high-quality open letter in combination with a few other major open source/free software figures, and somebody high up at IBM. People like that. That would let them catch flaws (many eyes, no?), give you more weight, and ensure that you have a good representative view of the open source community. Now you blew it, and it's too late to take it back. Unlike software (and even your rather unusual web pages), letters do not have revisions.
May we never see th
Yeah totally agree, he may have a good point, however his attitude is not very helpful.
It would seem a bit difficult for ESR to have much credibility with McNealy after he trashed them in his "Sun is dead" article.
from someone who doesn't understand the difference between share price and market cap. According to ESR if Sun did a 10-1 reverse split it would be a better company than rhat because it's share price would be higher. Stupidly like that make the Open source community look like a bunch of lunatics
Who listens to this gasbag? He's almost worse than Jonkatz. Why is the open source community allowing such an obnoxious self-righteous psychopath to be its mouthpiece? If I were Scott McNealy I would tell him to go fuck one of his gun nozzles.
I don't believe guns have nozzles.
The only sense that I can make out of it that makes ESR out to *not* be very foolish in writing this letter is if he's thinking in a rather long-term, egocentric manner. He might expect that Microsoft's C# will beat Java, and Sun has had it. That way, when it happens, he can say "Yeah, I predicted that back in Febuary '04! Too bad Sun didn't listen to me. I'm sure they'd still be in business then!" and point to his nicely documented open letter.
May we never see th
...but in a different way.
We all know that Java has its perceived flaws and many people say that, whilst Java is good, if they were doing it again, they would not go the same route.
So what I ask is - why not design an open source Java type language and libraries for the next decade, and start from basics all over again?
Like many people on Slashdot, I don't believe absolutely everything must be free in the fullest sense of the word. Companies have a right to keep their products as closed if they wish to. If we truly believe open source is better then we should design a new Java equivalent from beginning to end.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
that Open Source unemployes programmers..
Has this guy not heard of the Java Community Process or am I just really mistaken about how it works?
Java is to Lanugages as Mac is to OS. Simple. Easy. Reliable. Just works.
It is not that this post was that important, it is just the feeling of inertia and indifference that is so unfortunate (unwilling to give a stronger word here.)
You can't handle the truth.
The first open letter to get free Java should be to Starbucks. While you're at it, ask if they can implement some instances of FrenchVanilla.
As a concession, we'll have them keep their tip.jar files.
To be more on-topic (uh huh huh, I said moron) -- would SUN be the second big company (besides IBM) of the non-distro bunches to do some OSS-embracing? Forget AOL which got money from the Netscape settlement then proceeded to pseudo-kick Mozilla off. At least SUN still actively supports OO.org. I guess we're asking them to take the big plunge instead of just testing the waters.
SUN's having a big identity crisis and could use a good shrink. Would be interesting to see where they go from here.
Sun has made some simple cosmetic changes in 1.5, but they have avoided the hard stuff: value classes, a better native code interface, and correctly implemented generic classes. Those would require jvm changes, and they are necessary for java to be a competitive choice.
I'm too lazy to look, but this isn't the first time slashdot has covered some yahoo with a grudge blasting Sun over not releasing Java to the public domain or whatever.
I consider myself a "Java Developer" by profession. I switched years ago and have avoided C++ ever since. I love Java because it ISN'T C++.
And I can't help but feel that Sun's control over Java is what has kept it from degenerating into a mess like C++.
As another poster has mentioned, everything you want to know about Java's internals and source code is there for anyone who wants to look.
About the only thing you can't do is break standard's compliance and still claim to be Java and thank god for that. If Java was not under Sun's control then there would have been no recourse against MicroSoft for pulling that stunt.
How many companies have been taken to task for claiming to have a C, C++, Pascal, Fortran, Cobol - you name it compiler that wasn't standards compliant? When's the last time you wrote a non-trivial program using VisualC++ that compiled and ran out of the box on Linux EVEN with strict standards compliance turned on? Yeah, a lot of it's library issues and not language itself, but with Java everyone has access to the same rich library, and with few exception, most third party libraries are fully cross-platform as well (at least if they claim %100 pure Java).
Thank god for Java and thank god for Sun's control over it. The JSR is enough openess we need.
Yeah, the best way to convince someone to do what you want is by telling them they don't know what they're talking about. Open Source IS a zero-revenue model. IBM and Redhat don't make money on the software, they make money on hardware and/or support. This is something that Sun obviously understands (as quoted in the article), and the condescending tone of ESR's letter doesn't help this cause very much.
A better first step, IMO, would be to convince Sun to loosen up their distribution restrictions so that the Java SDK could be included in Linux distros. It's not bloody likely that Sun's just going to jump up and let all of their stuff go at once. It would be better to work on smaller things before moving on to the big battle.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
One problem though,
h are-price-and-market-cap fuck?
Who in their right mind would want to be associated with this hacker-emblem-don't-know-the-difference-between-s
But he has to. That's his role. Like you'd expect RMS to be fanatical, Linus to be mostly non-confrontational, ESR to be completely for OSS, and Perens is probably a couple of notches down from ESR.
If our leaders were indecisive, they wouldn't be good leaders, would they?
And after these things, Eric Raymond went in and spaketh to McNealy: "Thus saith Eric Raymond of the open source movement. Let Java go that my people may develop on it in the desert." But McNealy answereth, saying: "Who is Eric Raymond, that I should hear his voice and let Java go? I know not Raymond, neither will I let Java go." And McNealy said, "Seeth thou how the developers of Java are numerous, and how their multitude is increased. How much more if it be set free?" And McNealy's heart was hardened, and he did not hearken to them, as Eric Raymond commanded.
If they don't open it up, the OSS community will either do their own thing or move to C#. And many in the OSS communty aren't just not interested inJava anymore, they have gotten quite annoyed by the garbage people like McNealy, Gosling, and Schwartz are saying about OSS and their broken promises.
If Sun thinks they can go it alone, good luck. And good riddance.
As a developer with many years of experience with both Java and Microsoft languages, I would consider Visual Studio .NET (2003) a key factor for C#'s success.
.NET (as long as your target supports the framework).
.NET to remain competitive. And it should be free.
It really combines the best features of Delphi, Visual Basic and Java into one clean product. In the past one had to choose one of those; now you can get almost anything done with C# and
Having used Sun's IDEs a bit, I wouldn't even compare them with Visual Studio. They're crappy, slow and unintuitive for Windows users. Of course, if you're developing server-side stuff the IDE has less priority. But new people grow up writing GUI apps with Visual Studio and will want to continue using it for servers as well.
So my point is, Java desperately needs something like Visual Studio
It's amusing how Eric Raymond points out the success of Red Hat's open-source business model and how Red Hat's share price is 3x Sun Microsystem. Open source business model must be working. But wait! Mr. Raymond forgot to multiply by outstanding shares, aka market cap. Looks like Red Hat is worth around $3.2B, and Sun about $18B. Lovely. Really showing some insight.
I can't imagine what he was thinking when he said that Java is losing out to Perl and Python among Open-sourcers. Java does not compete with P&P on any front whatsoever. Java has proven to be an awkward, heaviweight technology on the client side, and makes a very poor scripting language. But it shines on the server end, where its strong, secure type-checking and exception handling makes programs reliable, and where long-running repetitive tasks allow JIT technology all the time it requires to do an excellent optimization job.
IBM is totally behind Java. It's not going anywhere, libre or not, and Sun is in a good position setting the standards. If I take off my own Free Software fanboy goggles for a minute, it's pretty clear there's no motivation for Sun to make Java free.
Part of the problem is its cross-platform nature. As a user of more than one minority platform, I see this as being a massive advantage. However, I know that people who only use Windows (and some who only use Linux) see it merely as a speed penalty; should those people have the right to fragment the platform, making it a little better for the majority, but much much worse -- or even impossible -- for the rest? Is 'majority rule' such a good thing in this case?
If Java had been completely free in its early days, I think there's little doubt that, er, a certain company would have embraced and extended it in their traditional fashion, turning it into a de facto Windows language. Sun's strong control early on was necessary to prevent this. They've slowly relaxed their control, though; the Java Community Process lets anyone propose improvements, and many of the current ones have come from outside Sun. And the platform has always been open in the sense that anyone can make a clean-room implementation of the spec and call it Java if it passes the compatibility tests.
The question, I think, is just how much control they still need to have. Too much, and people will worry about their motives and Java's future; OTOH, too little, and maybe even now the platform will fragment, making it far less useful to developers, and possibly leaving room for a less altruistic company to take control of it? A similar question is how fast should the platform change -- too slow, and it risks losing out to more modern ones that have whizz-bang features; too fast, and it risks losing developers who don't want to keep relearning or rewriting.
So, while I generally agree with open-source principles, I think Sun has generally done the right thing for Java so far. But how much control do they still need? I don't know. Does anyone?
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.
What "work" has ESR done deserving of respect? I've never understood why people consider ESR and TCATB so profound. I read it and came away convinced that OSS is a poor business strategy.
The present essay seems as idiotic. For 99% of the world, Java is already open and free. You don't pay for the runtime and you don't pay for the SDK. OSS purists (bigots?) seem to equate source code freedom with absolute freedom, but practically speaking that simply isn't true.
What ESR and his ilk fail to realize is the concept of OSS would never have gotten the modern world to where it is today. The whole argument of free software is the same as outsourcing high-tech jobs to India to create better jobs in the US.
A couple of years ago I would have agreed; at that time, if Sun had just made the licensing issues of Java simpler, it would have made it a lot easier to make java available on lots of interesting platforms.
Now, however, with the humongotron-sized 1.5 libraries ... I mean ... come on ... how can anyone duplicate all this stuff? The vast majority of java developers are probably using Sun's 'reference implementations' (not even intended for production use!), and so are also now reliant on all the bugs therein; a port will have to make sure it copies all the bugs. Trust me, I've been there. Life doesn't get much better than when you HAVE to inject bugs in your code to make it run like Sun's! And the customer is making you!
But honestly, I'd prefer to not even see things like this come out of ESR; I'd rather folks didn't know that there were some fairly stupid things Sun is doing with Java that are just going to kill it quicker. Cause I want it to die quicker.
C# and the CLR are the future. And they don't have the licensing problems that Java does. And are technically better. Why wait, jump in, the water's fine!
and kill them both.
:-)
Hey, somebody has to plug C++!
This is my sig.
A thousand times no!
Java has always been managed through a community process. I think it has been fairly effective and having the support of a large company can't hurt. ESR's only job these days is bitching at companies who don't open source their software. That's all great, unless your a software only company!
Slashdot needs an ESR graphic.
I think ESR doesn't understand that there could be open-source implmentations of Java if only he wanted one (in fact, there are). The Java specs are public, and anyone can implement against them if they feel like it. In fact, this whole thing can be thrown back to ESR -- he has said that open source projects come into existence because someone somewhere needs to "scratch an itch". So if Eric has an itch, he's free to start scratching.
Maybe he's talking about opening up the specs, but what would that mean exactly? There's good reason to say that it's happened already. Sun flirted with the idea of turning the specs over to a standards body some years ago, but it soon became clear that Microsoft would try to influence any such organization and bastardize the language. Remember, cross-platform portability is one of the highest-priority features of Java, the main reason it's interesting at all for Sun and many other players, but it's precisely what Microsoft most urgently would try to destroy. About the same time, Microsoft created a version of the JVM shot through with Windows dependencies and lacking some libraries they were required to implement, all in violation of the license, for which they were duly bitch-slapped by the courts (a set of facts that many Slashdotters curiously like to overlook). Sun learned the hard way that they couldn't go along with any standards process that could endanger cross-platform portability.
So now there is the Java Community Process, over which Sun has only limited control, and in which organizations such as the Apache Group participate. Arguably, this is at least as open as the standards processes for many open-source projects. Anyone can access the code to Apache software and the Linux kernel, for example, but only voting members of the Apache Group decide what goes into and out of Apache software, and essentially Linus and his lieutenants decide what goes into Linux. The JCP has its faults, but being strictly proprietary or less open than most of the open-source projects are not among them.
Finally, I'd like to know the grounds for ESR's claim that Sun's alleged control of Java is "throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community, ceding the field (and probably the future) to scripting-language competitors like Python and Perl." Java has one of the largest development communities in the world with lively activity among open-source developers -- think of Jakarta. And although Perl and Python developers tend to disintegrate into a blue rage when somebody says this, Java is the language of choice for a wide range of industry projects, including the most business-critical applications, and Perl and Python certainly are not. (Flame away if you like, flail against the windmills, rage impotently against the stubborn truth.) I think ESR's insinuation of a dim future for Java due to the displeasure of open source developers is just blowing smoke.
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
RH floated as far as they could on hype and are going to have to start generating revenue for things that should be free, by ESR's account.
The logic of OSS can seem to handle this seeming 'paradox': in order to cover the costs associated with technology creation and production, you have to charge money. If you give your product away for free, then noone will buy it (because it is free), implying that you won't cover your costs.
Imaging this logic applied to other knowledge-based industries, say medicine. What incentive would a doctor have to spend several years in medical school, incur large debt, have enormous costs associated with a practice (including malpractice insurance), and spend large amounts of time away from family if he/she had to give medical care away for free? There would be no medical industry.
Similarly, there would be no technology industry if early developers of transistors, IC, microchips, OS design, networking, etc. opened everything up for anyone to implement. I posit that OSS has yet to contribue one technical innovation back to the cause -- the only contribution has been economic, not innovative.
Funny, I have a hard time seeing how Java doesn't have as much openness as it needs, or how the open-source development world doesn't already have as much Java as it needs and wants.
I found the whole teleology of the argument very strange. Java has been a success story, not a failure for Sun, up to the present. It's already widely-adopted, and so would be around for decades even if it lost all momentum tomorrow. Finally, its target market and mindshare are with commercial developers and software producers, not open source programming communities-- it's not for the licensing a smaller percentage of those choose to work in Java. I found that claim almost disingenous.
Matt
However, I would not be surprised if Sun is reluctant to do this because of software patent problems. Their lawyers might be telling them that it's impossible.
------
Create a WAP server
Apple could bundle it with their iTunes/QuickTime installer on Win32
Why on earth would you bundle a very large, unrelated piece of software with a relatively small program? It doesn't make any sense at all. Hey, why not also bundle perl, python, ruby, cygwin, and gcc as well, so that even more is covered? Sure I have to download hundreds of megs of stuff I don't want when all I'd like to do is listen to music or watch a movie, but so what?
Besides which, why would Apple even care about Windows Java installations?
Make no mistake, it is Microsoft that is playing the catch-up game!
.NET that."
Yeah, but consider this: who's got the momentum right now? Because all I hear right now is ".NET this,
Don't blame the community for the absurd C++ feature called "references" (dumb references - you can't actually use them instead of pointers, because they can't be NULL; at the same time, if you have code with references, pointers and stack-values, everything degenerates into an incomprehensible mess - java references are the way to go, or just pointers), or for the fact that the template sub-language is Turing-complete (yes, you can actually write partial recursive functions in template language ... ugh).
The Raven
Bravo Eric aka ESR !
Well done. Keep leading, even though this pack of individualists will always have its complaints.
By the way, someone has to get to Senator John Kerry - his current misunderstandings of our field are legion.
Again, thanks for your efforts (in lieu of pay).
ESR is a damn ignorant flamer. shareprice over 3 times is 100% irrelevant when ignoring market cap, which is most certaintly much smaller for a joke of a company like linux-losers-r-us. you wanna play with the big boys? take a finance course and learn what the heck you are talking about.
What exactly is broken in gcj's SWING implementation? Why is the layout different? Those windows should be pretty much pixel-perfect copies of each other, but they're not.
There seems to be some bugs regarding padding on controls and between controls. Frankly, that's not good enough.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Hmm... Lets see....
Sun creates Java, releases it for almost all platforms. Then, they maintain it and allow other companies to produce products to sell and run with their standards for free(just look how many J2EE servers there are out there).
Then, Sun goes a step further by creating a developer's network and allowing other developer networks to arise to further the advancement of java based products.
On the otherside, Microsoft creats C#, sells it for a hell of a lot of money, and says it can only run on these platforms and by the way, all your previous VB stuff, throw it out, we don't care.
Who cares if Sun wants to keep the source code, they have done a great job with Java and I only see good things in the future. Just because something isn't open source doesn't mean its not good. I love open source but some people in that world need to get over themselves and thank the companies (like Sun) that work so hard to provide us with tools. Where would organizations like the Jakarta organization be if Sun had not helped them so much.
Kudos to Sun!
Sun announced several years ago that they would be standardizing on Gnome for their enterprise desktops. They have made significant contributions since then (let's not be fooled: none of these recent public sector / governmental success stories would have been possible without Sun's accessibility work). When they decided to go with Gnome, they already had a production JVM for Linux that equalled the Windows and Solaris (in that order) virtual machines in performance and stability.
When they went with Gnome, Microsoft had long been banging the .NET / C# drum and Miguel had allocated his devoted team of Mono hackers at Ximian with the explicit intent of bringing a modern programming language, C#, to Linux and integrate it tightly with Gnome.
And Sun does nothing! This is an impossible equation to me:
1] Because it invades Sun's most priced asset: the Java and J2EE mindshare.
2] Maybe not technically, at least not yet, but well in developer mindshare.
I don't understand how Sun can let this happen. That's where Java should be! Everything is prepared: all underlying frameworks are in place (industrial-strength JVM on Linux, the new GTK Swing LF, some native Gnome/GTK-Java integration already works, JVM sharing in the pipeline), it's a great way to bring Java to the desktop masses (without having to go through a hostile monopoly) and if Sun doesn't do it, very soon every one will be using their shiny "Java Desktop Systems" to build GTK# applications in .NET on top of Mono.
So I say to Sun:
- Let Java free! You will never get full community and Gnome acceptance until you do.
- Allocate tons of resources to integrating Java with Gnome! And we want real bindings, a buggy Swing Look and Feel is not enough! When a developer sits down to build a Gnome app, they should want to use Java because it's so easy and powerful and well integrated.
- Let people use gcj, GCC's Java-to-native compiler, to produce native binaries from their Java Gnome apps, they're already building for one desktop so screw Write-Once-Run-Anywhere!
- Make your client JVM so good that there's no need to. You're almost there already, most Java apps are today equal to or faster than their C/C++ counterparts on the server side. If Swing hadn't been such a hog and you could tweak that JVM startup time some more, no one would notice the difference on the client-side either.
This may slow down Microsoft's emerging dominance on the free desktop and make that "Java Desktop" brand of yours more than just a PR move.-EE
wrong forum? I don't think so.
"Mr. CEO, tear down that wall"
ESR you are now offcially a yutz
God what an idiotic article. Lets just look at a few issues, OK?
The open-source community has been hearing reports that you have recently said of Sun Microsystem's strategy "The open-source model is our friend". We're glad to hear that, and Sun's support of OpenOffice.org certainly puts some weight behind the claim. But that support is curiously inconsistent, spotty in ways which suggests that Sun is confused in the way it thinks about and executes its open-source strategy.
Oh, I see. So if you want to be our "Friend" that means you have to move lock-step with us and everything you do must benefit us.
Open Office is a huge boost to the Open Source community. It's one of the most powerful weapons in the "war" against Microsoft that a lot of us seem to be emotionally invested in. It provides a real alternative to MS office and a way for business to move away from windows.
But ESR seems to think that to be a "friend" of the open source movement, everything you do must benefit it. And of course, if you don't, you must be "confused." Apparently ESR views the Open Source community as a sort of single-minded Totalitarian regime lead by him, in which any decent is labeled "confusion."
But the casual equation between "open source" and "zero revenue" suggests that on another level you don't really know what you're talking about. Open source is hardly a zero-revenue model; ask Red Hat, which had a share price over triple Sun's when I just checked. Or ask IBM, which is using Linux as a lever to build a huge systems-integration business in markets like financial services that Sun has historically owned.
Okay, share price. Great. As if that isn't a totally meaningless indicator. Why didn't ESR look at market cap, or revenues? Oh yeah, because then RH wouldn't be "bigger". Ever heard of a stock split? How are shares of the company who's board you're on, VA Software, doing? I see you provided them a lot of good advice.
If Sun were prepared to go all the way with open source it could seize back its position of industry leadership. Sun is one of a small handful of companies that would both have the smarts and the street cred to do even better than IBM has from a full-fledged alliance with the open-source community.
Of course, as we all know, street cred == money. Please. And how does IBM have a "full commitment to open-source."? They still sell proprietary software, along with contributing to OSS last I checked.
when Bill Joy came to a Linux conference to push Jini as a universal network-service protocol, we in the open-source community told him straight up "You can have ubiquity or you can have control. Pick one." He picked control, and Jini failed in its promise. The contrast with NFS could hardly be more stark.
This is the best part. So the OSS community's huge sway with OEMs prevented Jini from being implemented in lots of imbedded hardware. Right. It also prevented OSS's great nemesis from flourishing. Oh wait.
There are a lot of reasons why Jini failed, and anyone claming to know exactly what "went wrong" is out of their mind. It may not have succeeded even if it were an open standard.
Today, the big issue is Java. Sun's insistence on continuing tight control of the Java code has damaged Sun's long-term interests by throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community, ceding the field (and probably the future) to scripting-language competitors like Python and Perl.
Uh yeah. The vast majority of programmers pick the tool they like, and most people in the OSS community use Python because it's a fun programming language that's easy to write (same with Perl, although I kind of think most people it because 'that's what they know') . Most large OSS projects still use C++, and lots of projects are written in Java. I think the percentage of OSS projects that chose a language based on political issues is pretty damn small. Hell, there are probably
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Remember how in 1998 Eric felt compelled to tell everybody how he was granted 150K options in VA Linux, and how he was now worth over $40 mil, and not to bother writing him asking for money cuz he was too busy cleaning his guns and praying to buddha?
Well it's been over 6 years, and his $40 mil in options should have vested by now, Mr. business genius should cash in his options and develop his own implementation!
Also, as far as I know, SWT can compile directly with GCJ to make a pure java/gnu open source offering. SWT is an amazing piece of tech anyway, so check it out.
It takes forever to build up credibility, and a couple of silly open letters and articles to blow it. That may not be just, but such is life.
A lot of ESR's credibility is for the fact that he says what he thinks. He doesn't always sugar-coat his opinions for corporate digestion, and doesn't seem to care if people consider him a nutcase or whatever. I respect him for that.
Many in his position would start to move more carefully, in order to not blow their "hard earned" reputation. Not ESR - he keeps on saying aloud things many of us want to be said aloud. I don't think I have ever strongly disagreed with anything he has written, and nobody listens to me, so it's nice to have ESR saying those things.
ESR-bashing seems to be all the rage at slashdot these days, and I wonder why that is. Are some slashdotters so insecure that the feel threatened when they see someone with a certain amount of self-importance/arrogance? Or are they offended because he is a self-proclaimed gun nut?
Screw that. We need one ESR, one Bruce Perens, one Linus and occasionally even one RMS. Well, we could use a few more Linuses and Bruces. But anyway.
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
Which, I think, would be the most appropriate stance for an open source/technological figurehead.
Open Source will get by just fine without fanatics who do more politics than code. As much as I hate to admit it, I actually have some respect for RMS.
Not because of his ideology or his fanaticism, but because he has something concrete to back that fanaticism up with. On the other hand, I don't know what ESR or Perens have done, except that they like to blow hot air in public once in a while.
But still, Linus remains the top OSS "leader" to me because he doesn't want to be a leader. He's the Captain who gets out in the field with his men and gets things done quietly and properly whilst the OSS Generals are fuming and posturing over some petty political insult.
The owls are not what they seem
This is plain wrong :
... It's one of the most powerful weapons in the "war" against Microsoft ...
:
... to work.
you should not be at war with MS. War is counter productive. Just support Open Source. Ignore MS. you don't need them.
This, however, is absolutly right
It provides a real alternative to MS office and a way for business to move away from windows.
But not as a weapon! just
Ernest J.W. ter Kuile
If you read, (I doubt it) check the shelves at your local bookstore. Count the number of .NET books vs. Java books in the programming section. They aint there for show, stupid. They are there because people are buying them. The only way you make any sense, is if your own name is ".NET". Then, you would be right.
The open source community needs to pay more attention to the rants of ESR.
Pay more attention so they can realize that they need someone less idiotitic as a spokesman. I'd trade 1000 ESR's for one Brue Perens, for example.
Oh yeah, ESR you retard, it's market cap not stock price that matters...
i am mainly a C user but i tried java years ago when i was using a Mac and i have kept an eye on Java since. my problems with it and how Sun behaves are :
1. the claimed "portability" of Java
i think this is a fine joke. a java program has portability trouble across different JRE on the same processor and OS. dont even try to think of this about different processors or even various operating systems. the high deniability of people when you tell them about this tells a lot of the inner problems of Java : axioms you are not allowed to discuss even if everything shows there's something wrong.
let's get an exemple. you can install NetBSD 1.6.1 and in its kernel you have compatibility options that allow you to use binaries compiled on previous versions of NetBSD like a binary coming from ten years ago, compiled on NetBSD 0.9
how can i be able to run BINARY code that is ten years old on a machine, and not be able to run Java bytecode on the same machine with two different JRE properly ?
i can even grab a binary for a proprietary unix system years and years ago and have it run... so we are able to run today programs from machines whom are no longer available and that existed before Java even came to birth.
2. Writing non-portable code using Java
Java is said to be impossible to be used to write non-portable programs. fine. so why does the applet that works fine under Internet Explorer and Windows doesn't work on a Macintosh under MacOS or MacOS X ?
3. Standards
C is a standard. We had the ANSI C that was followed by ISO C and more recently the C99 which GCC supports. So if you write code relatively cleanly it will get compiled (sometimes with a few fixes) on weirdo platforms. C should suck compared to Java about portability. So a few monthes ago why did I run into so much trouble to try to run Freenet ? It has been written using Java so it would be as portable as possible. But when you try to run it with JRE A it doesn't work so you move to JRE B but you get even worse problems so you try another JRE... Excuse-me ?!
While in the same time we got programs written in C that can be compiled on Linux, BSD, Windows, HP-UX, AIX across a dozen different kind of processors. We could be able to find rpm, debian packages, Free/Net/Open's entries in their respective Ports/pkgsrc...
NetBSD 1.6.1 released in august 2003 runs on 52 different architectures, with 17 disctinct hardware architectures and 11 different processors and it's mainly based on C code. The beauty of it ?
If I find a PCMCIA card and write a device for it, it will also mean that if you got a Zaurus (which runs a different archictecture and processor as the i386 I could have used to write a PCMCIA driver) you can plug the PCMCIA card and have it work. It means that if you install NetBSD on a Mac and it has a PCI port, you can plug a x86 supported card and have it work while you have no driver for that very same card available under both MacOS and MacOS X.
I'm not saying that C is the answer but that proper design and continuous work can achieve great results. Linux is also available on an incredible number of platforms, probably even more than NetBSD currently has from small cards with tiny processors to big 8-way monster machines.
Last, let me reproduce the words of someone from Advogato about this, dej who says :
The only real problem with Java is that it is proprietary.
I cannot legally use Java in any way, without giving Sun the ability to impair my business. This does not hold true for C++.
The license that accompanies the JRE you can download from Sun gives you the right to use it to test your own applications. It does not give you the right to run other people's applications arbitrarily. I suppose you can buy a JRE from Sun for this purpose. But then Sun controls
How can this yahoo keep getting press? Why does anyone think that having him as the self appointed mouthpiece for Open Source would be a good thing?
All of his writings show a distinct lack of depth. He has a superficial understanding of most topics he writes on, and quickly exposes that fact. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in Unix/Linux/Coding. But, beyond that he should STFU.
As an example, check out the ill-advised, simplistic, racist ramblings from his blog: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/001393.html
In the Java essay, he exposes the fact that he has no clue about business financials by comparing the share price of Sun & Red Hat. Anyone who has invested at all knows this is meaningless.. A company with 1M shares @ $100 is worth a lot less than a company with 1B shares @ $33.
So please, ignore the troll and he'll go away.
Memo to the banks:
;-)
Set the money free. We want to be given what isn't ours.
Maybe I can ask Microsoft to open up the Windows source...
;D
Silly me! Nevermind
_________ Help me get a PSP!
I have never got along with the whole object-oriented thing anyway -- I'd rather tell the computer how to process the data, than tell the data how to let the computer process it. Assembly language will always be free, of course; but not everybody thinks in the same way, and learning a programming language can be as big a job as actually writing a programme in it.
Java really is as close as it gets to open source without being open source -- and it still isn't close enough. There is also the question of whether Java would have matured so well without someone keeping a tight rein over it. Sometimes you have to protect your little ones while they are growing -- but you have to realise that the thing about children is that they eventually grow up and learn to live without you. Sun once has a lot to lose by opening the Java source, but today it has far less to lose in doing so. There soon will be "clean" Java interpreters that contain no Sun code anyway, and the choice for Sun will be whether to free up Java or break it.
But there is always the option of multiple-licencing. Sun's licence restrictions -- particularly the bit about not distributing competing products -- are there deliberately to keep Microsoft from spoiling Java. What if some Linux vendor were to negotiate a separate licence from Sun, permitting them to distribute Sun's Java interpreter ready-to-go with OpenOffice.org and their Web browser?
Their distribution probably would be "tainted" and not freely redistributable in its entirety {thus introducing logistical difficulties, but not insurmountable ones}; but at least it would give Sun a toe in the waters of open source.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
This is a serious question!
Why does ALL of your software have to be free but not your
hardware? Your BIOS is not open. Your CPU is not open.
Your Monitor design schematics are not available to you.
So why does the opensource crowd stop with the software.
IF you are going to demand all software be open; fine,
but you must also demand all of you hardware be open as well.
2. ?????
3. Profit!
but what do i know, i'm just a model.
open it up...then Micro$soft can start changing the specification on their OS (like they already have with other specification and tried with Java), and then, bang, there goes your platform independance. And hey, Sun invented java...and sunk a lot into it. Have singlehandedly revolutionized the computing industry with it. Bollocks to Eric Raymond, not everything is a crusade.
oh...and by the way
by throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community
How about handing around some of that crack eh?
Eric, your car is in bad shape. It really is. All you have to do is let me have it, and I'll fix it for you! Of course, it'll be "our" car, but hey, it'll be fixed. I'm gonna need it... let's see.... every day. Do you mind?
They make money selling J2ME licenses for embedded devices like cellphones. If they opened java completely, they would make as much money off that as Linus does on all the embedded linux out there. None.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
If Sun really "sets Java free", it might follow the steps of other open source projects and become "incompatible with itself".
Corporations like sun have an incentive to maintain consistency and backwards compatibility because they have customers who depend on it. However, in 100% open projects like PHP, developers keep breaking APIs solely for aesthetic purposes... Without corporate backing, Java can become an everchanging platform that has thousands of incompatible flavors.
I tried using Eclipse and I couldn't stand it. It felt powerful, but the damn autocomplete system didn't work quite right, and it didn't work nearly as well as the system in Jbuilder, so I ended up going back to the old-ass version of Jbuilder I've been working with. I mean, an IDE can have all the features in the world, but if typing code is a pain then forget about it...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
> > But what if giving that away (at least partially)
> > would actually be just the way to save the company
> > from bankruptcy...?
>
> Hey, it worked for Netscape right?
Yes it actually did. If Netscape's decision to produce Mozilla was a dude, it wouldn't have been bought by AOL/TimeWarner.
So why did Netscape disappear AOL/TimeWarner? Simply because Netscape was a crippled and bloated from the original Mozilla code base. Why would you use Netscape when Mozilla was clearly better?
When Firebird started gaining mindshare, AOL/TimeWarner should have produced a Netscape Lite off that code base, but instead chose to ignore it. Eventually the AOL portion of AOL/TimeWarner lost so much money (because of AOL, not Netscape), that it decided to just give up and set Mozilla free.
Sun is different. It's making money off of StarOffice by adding value (without crippling it). They've also kept StarOffice pretty much up to date with OpenOffice. Finally, Sun realized that they would make more money by offering support for OpenOffice too, so they started supporting either value added StarOffice or raw OpenOffice.
Why can't they use the same strategy with Java?
It's all the work they did typing out the code that's not. You are free to reimplement Java to spec or not unencumbered with the kinds of patents that protect .NET. Giving away countless hours of work to appease cranks like ESR is not the correct way to 'increase shareholder value'.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I find this *very* difficult to believe. Can you cite the relevant part of whatever governing license agreement covers this?
John.
Licenses could easily make a deal to include the JVM cheap or free I'm sure. If they're charging $50 for a disk, they might as well send a couple dollars Sun's way for including some quality closed source software. Suns philosophy with java is "if you're making money off it, we should be too." Which I think is perfectly reasonable, given the amount of work Sun has put into this product.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Granted, most of them are probably not nearly as good. The great thing about VB (or C# these days, why would anyone still use VB?) is the IDE. The ide does most of the real work. What OSS needs is a kickass, easy to use IDE to compete with Visual Studio.
Honestly, VB is dead. Microsoft dosn't even want it anymore (VB.net is a diffrent language, (and far, far superior, btw)).
The question is about easy to use, fun IDEs. And there are a lot of OSS ones out there. Relax.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
"How can this yahoo keep getting press?"
Because he has friends in the right places. Like here. Rest assured, whenever ESR posts a public statement, Slashdot will do its part to make sure it gets as much publicity as possible.
"Why does anyone think that having him as the self appointed mouthpiece for Open Source would be a good thing?"
Good question, considering the track record of his predictions (specifically, his Microsoft predictions).
"In the Java essay, he exposes the fact that he has no clue about business financials by comparing the share price of Sun & Red Hat. Anyone who has invested at all knows this is meaningless"
Ok, so he doesn't know what he's talking about. That's never stopped him before.
I've got a belief that the open source movement (and free software movement) is sometimes more of a religious movement than a technology or community movement. We have our established dogmas, even when they're bullshit. And all it takes for some moron to get mucho press is to find a writer that will refer to him as "an open source community leader". Like other so-called "community leaders" (especially in religion) there doesn't seem to be any real qualifications except for a big ego and a drive to promote yourself. Make no mistake, folks. We have plenty of Al Sharptons in our own ranks.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Why the *hell* is he comparing Red Hat and Sun by *share price*?
Because he's an idiot.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
There are free versions of smalltalk, maybe we all should be writing smalltalk libraries to mimic the best of the Java libraries, maybe even including the hateful Swing, and follow the one true smalltalk (www.squeak.org maybe).
I never did get around to learning smalltalk, only know it by its reputation, but it does not seem to have a commercial reputation.
Anyway what else can make a come back after reinvention every 20 years? Well there is GNU/Linux/unix, flared trousers and even LISP for starters.
Python vs Smalltalk vs Java(unfree) in a cat fight. Java wins every time, more commercial developers is the killer measure.
Karma - going down..
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
Linux Asia (asianux) already has a cute mascot.
It was a pretty straight-forward case.
please take business advice from Eric Raymond.
- bill gates
All 112533 results for java :
Lets take a look at jobs son monster too
over 5000+ with java
2079 with .net
Lets look at jobs in California as a good indicator of the current state of .NET
1361 w/ the keyword java.
310 jobs with .NET
Now this is obviously not scientific, but it doesn't appear that java is hurting. In fact, it looks like if you wanted to improve your chances of employment, you're better off reading one of those java books.
Sun is setting the standard, and GCJ is just re-implementing it. GCJ can never catch up to Sun's Java because the latter is a moving target.
If you look at their differences, GCJ is ahead in many areas. Sun's Java can't compile to a native binary, it is limited to particular architectures, and it can't "just link" to binaries of other languages, such as C++.
I would love to see the GCC(GNU Compiler Collection) gain JVM target support, such that we could compile C and C++ code to Java bytecode. The framework is there, I suppose we're just lacking the standard libraries.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Today, the big issue is Java. Sun's insistence on continuing tight control of the Java code has damaged Sun's long-term interests by throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community, ceding the field (and probably the future) to scripting-language competitors like Python and Perl.
hmmm... I like Perl, but its like mixing apples and oranges. I have never been told to use Perl or especially python because the source code of Java isn't open!
The marketing and hype that Sun has thrown towards Java gives company execs warm fuzzies about choosing it for their dev language. When you can't even buy a cell phone how without seeing "Java enabled" you know this is a stable and wide spread revolution. I have yet to see a "perl enabled" cell phone.
Oh my god. You just keep looking at the last picture and refuse to believe it.
>Out of interest, would you name some better IDEs..?
Intellij IDEA and Omnicore Codeguide
Opening Java and letting the implementation and maintance be handled by the community would still do a world of good. Sun can still spec out what Java core libs does. Just let the community which seems to be just as fast and capable as anyone at Sun.
If the entire thing is opened, as others mention there can be full integration of the Gnome Desktop. This is good for the very same reason Ximian wants to work on Mono. It isn't so much about bringing Windows apps to Linux but bringing Linux Apps to Windows. Imagine only a minor port to make Gimp work on Windows as well as Linux? That would be well worth the investment on Sun's part.
You can have Java when you pry it from Sun's cold dead hands... No wait!
You don't seem to understand Open Source. This *will* save Sun from bankruptcy. By making Java Open Source, Sun will gain a huge number of developers who will work on it for free. ...yup, that trick ALWAYS works! Just like it did for Netscape! And Ximian! And Eazel!
You appear to have confused "open source" with "magic fairy dust". I hate to be the one to break this to you, but it doesn't work that way.
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
the only value i see in java not being open is it's liquidation value. if sun wanted to sell the copyright to all of their java libraries and jvms, how much could they get for it?
the control aspect is interesting, but i don't see how they make money of it. i mean are they going to introduce a bug and them demand a ransom for fixing it?
"There's a big movement within Gnome to make .NET and C# the ubiquitos programming environment in Gnome."
Translation: "Everything I know about Gnome, I learned from the KDE trolls on slashdot."
Java 1.5 still sucks compared to C# or the .NET framework in general which allows you to use any language which has a MSIL compiler. Generics are a joke in Java. The compiler puts the casting code for you, and everything is still casted to Object, which means that it is SLOW. I don't know what the hell is wrong with SUN! If they want to create something good, they need to copy the .NET Framework to the letter and make it available on many platforms. .NET is what Java should have been. Sun promissed generics since 97? The just added them in a shitty way so they won't have to change the virtual machine. Sun called upon a few companies to createa a new intermediate language because they know how much they have failed with the current Java platform.
Thats pretty fucking scary.
Lowering cost by itself doesn't mean anything for Sun's bottom line.
.... That Java is leveling out the playing field with C#? Didn't Java have like a 8 year head start on C#?
Educate me on this...I'm not sure how this works. If they open source Java under the GPL then are they still able to liscense Java to other companies? Sure they can offer an enterprise support package...but can they mandate it? If not...then they lose revenue from Java.
And did I read that properly?
Better than Flickr - Manage, Share, Archive
They honestly beleive that visual studio .Net is the best IDE ever
Out of interest, would you name some better IDEs..?
I use emacs/gcc/gdb on my Powerbook, but for a more "friendly" IDE, how about Apple's XCode?
Cheers,
IT
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
ESR, once more, is publicity-whoring on a subject he either knows nothing about, or chooses to be deliberately ignorant of. Any brief perusal of the Java scene will uncover an enormous amount of Open Source work going on, some of it very high quality. (And much less so, of course, but that's the same all over).
What ESR really means is that there's a lack of adoption of Java from Unix/C programmers. This has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Java is Open Source or not, and everything to do with the perception amongst such programmers (whether deserved or not), of the Java language itself. People don't choose Perl, Python or Ruby over Java because the former are open source. People choose them because they prefer using the scripting languages.
I have this feeling that Scott McNealy isn't sitting there thinking "Damn, I guess if we totally cede control over this language, all those Unix nerds who hate Java anyway are going to drop their copies of Python and come rushing to embrace us!"
Charles Miller
The more I learn about the Internet, the more amazed I am that it works at all.
Allow me to beat you with the cluestick.
.py extension, passed to the Python interpreter executable as a parameter) called by the user on a command line or a web server in the same way as any other executable.
.py scripts to executables (and they still work if you use the runtime compiler) - Py2Exe being one of them.
Python is an object-orientated interpreted language. In it's most basic form it can run straight from a script file (typically
Python has bindings available for cross-platform user interfaces like wxPython / wxWindows, wrappers for low-level APIs like OpenGL, COM, network sockets, binary compression, sound, process management and multithreading - many of them included with the default install and just about everything is completely cross-platform using the same code.
If you're unhappy with the raw interpreted speed (even though certain things like I/O are just as fast as C code and if rewriting your algorithm does not help), there is also a runtime compiler available called Psyco. It works on x86 platforms, converts Python code to machine code on-the-fly - and can typically get you to within 40% to 60% of the performance of C. And it takes two lines to include it in a project.
AND there are utilities to convert
To cut a long story short, everybody who programs should know Python. You will be more efficient programmer immediately from the first project you use Python on - try it next time you have a smallish C/C++ utility to build. Python takes 20 minutes to learn and you'll have a working program (or at least, prototype) by the end of the afternoon. By the time you're really comfortable with the language (say, a week of constant use) you will be able to think about your programs again because you're not battling the language. Python is an *excellent* language. It's capability and the number of platforms on which it runs gives it tremendous power. If you're a programmer - you need Python. You just may not know it yet.
> Mr. CEO, tear down that wall.
It dosn't matter if it's productive or not, the fact of the matter is, Microsoft is the #1 enemy of the "Open source movment" such that it is.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Lots of people like python, but it won't become ubiquitous until they drop there "whitespace has syntaxical meaning" stance. Personally, I'll never use a language with syntax relevant whitespace while alternatives exist: perl, java, ruby and a boatload others.
If Java were open sourced, Sun would still....
Verbing weirds language.
"Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge, and where is the knowledge we have lost in information?"-T.S.Eliot
It was Sun's control of Java which allowed them to take on Microsoft and force them to cease distributing their embraced and extended, incompatible version of Java. A totally unencumbered standard would have been completely coopted by MS by now if it hadn't been for Sun.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
IBM's JDK's are modified versions of Sun's JDK to run on Linux, AIX, and Windows.
IBM get's the latest JDK from Sun - minus Hotspot, then they:
1) Apply their performance improvements from previous IBM JDK's.
2) Port it to Linux, AIX, and Windows.
3) Brand it IBM's JDK.
4) Release the public version.
5) Add the IBM JCE/JSSE library, ORB, and some other proprietary IBM code.
6) Release it under the covers with WebSphere, DB2, WSAD, etc.
Also, IBM is banned by contract from running the modified JDK on Solaris.
In summary, IBM's JDK is Sun's JDK. There is no competing clean-room JDK out there I know of except Kaffe (and TowerJ?).
Python-enabled phones were just announced at eTech by Nokia's CTO.
The more I learn about the Internet, the more amazed I am that it works at all.
In fact, it looks like if you wanted to improve your chances of employment, you're better off reading one of those java books.
If you are starting out, you have a better chance with .NET. Since Java is an older technology, there are alot of Java programmers with 5+ years of Java experience. That means most of the job ads "require" 5+ years of Java experience.
On the other hand, .NET is much newer. Most of the job ads I've seen require 1 year .NET experience or less.
So assuming Joe Programmer can study a technology for 3-6 months until unemployment runs out, which technology choice would be better for Joe to break into the industry: one where the jobs require >=5 years or <= 1 year of experience.
The other poster is correct. You're pretty far off on the GNOME/.NET relationship. There is one GNOME player that likes C# a lot -- Ximian. Not tht Ximian is insignificant, or that Miguel doesn't have weight in the GNOME community, but what Miguel and Ximian do defines "what GNOME is doing" about as much as private projects of TheKompany define what KDE is doing. Miguel himself has stated in *multiple* interviews that C# is *not* being merged into GNOME, that Mono is *not* part of GNOME, and that GNOME is *not* pushing C#. He has a bunch of people that want a rapid development language *and* happen to do commercial work for GNOME, which means that Mono will probably have GNOME bindings. End, full stop, you cannot claim more. There are already Java bindings for GNOME, so by the "support" metric, and if the desktop environments *have* to have a single preferred high-level-language (and I think that that's a ridiculous idea), Java would be ahead, not C#. Heck, more people write GTK apps with Python than with Java *or* C#.
May we never see th
Now this is obviously not scientific, but it doesn't appear that java is hurting. In fact, it looks like if you wanted to improve your chances of employment, you're better off reading one of those java books.
.Net out there is in my mind pretty impressive. It bodes 'well' for the future of .Net and should be attractive to a number of people out there. Namely the ones aching to become programmers or just fighting their way into a seriously competitive market.
Well, should one not also take into consideration the fact that Java is somewhat older and more well established?
Java might not be 'hurting' just yet, but it sure has some serious competition.
The fact that there already is this big a demand for
People, it wasn't just the Visual J++ Windows API extensions. It was that MS was changing the non-Windows part of their Java enough to break things. Very sneaky.
Well, yes, I agree. C# on top of Mono will not be the "officially preferred" (whatever that is) way to develop Gnome apps. From the start (ever since the initial CORBA-based architecture), Gnome has been about choice in programming language. So I don't foresee Gnome ever recommending a single environment for application development: I agree with you here.
...) does carry a lot of weight in the community. They will be, and are, pushing Mono a lot.
But that's not my point. My point is that 1) Ximian is the second most powerful company involved in Gnome and their influence is difficult to underestimate (for example, in the latest foundation elections, Ximian was the only company to have people excluded because of the affiliation clause). And, as you point out, Miguel (and Nat and Mike Meeks and Luis Villa and
And 2) C# is just a *so much* better development language than C and C++. There's just no reason whatsoever to write an app in C/C++ if the C# bindings are good (which I'm sure Miguel and Ximian's expertise will guarantee). Your point about Python is well made, but there will always be times when people decide (correctly or not) against Python for performance or project scalability reasons.
These two things combined, I believe will make C# take the Gnome world completely. And, I think this is not a turn of events that Sun would favor.
C# open standard that no company controls
Java controlled, owned by Sun
why java again?
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
It's really quite amazing how many of the good coders I know don't use an IDE -- they use an editor and compiler -- maybe vim or emacs and gcc or Visual Studio or something to compile.
.NET for different modules. GNU Make's syntax doesn't change *nearly* as often as Microsoft's project file syntax (and I'm suspicious that they do so to force upgrades). Versions are not backwards compatible, so once you transition to a newer version, you're stuck.
.NET 2002 has more bugs that I can count (note: .NET 2003 seems to be better).
.dsw files into a CVS repository? They look like text, they sound like text (and CVS autodetects them as text), but VS 6 barfs all over itself if it doesn't have CRLF line endings. Try adding someone working on a LF ending cygwin system or a Unix box or a Mac into your development mix, and all of a sudden, you realize that all those deltas in your repository have to be thrown out. Yuck.
.vcproj files, file extensions changing from version to version...argh.
I think a major reason many Windows developers are such Visual Studio fans is that Visual Studio's CLI tools are a pain in the ass to use. The MS virtual terminal really sucks, as does the shell. MS basically killed off all the non-MS compilers back in the day. MS's compilers are the only ones left in wide use on Windows. Since it's a pain in the ass to use the CLI tools, and Microsoft gives you an editor with their GUI front end...programmers end up liking Visual Studio.
I do know one Windows developer that likes the (expensive) Visual Slickedit, though I'm not sure whether it's a full IDE or just an editor. It isn't a compiler, that's for sure.
I've always been rather appalled by Microsoft's IDEs. (The only other IDE I've used is Metroworks on the Mac, and while I didn't strongly prefer either IDE, I really like non-IDE work much more.) Among other things:
* Managing multiple build configurations in VS is a PITA. You can have options that apply globally, or options that apply to individual configurations, but not options that apply to sets of configurations. You can't add and remove object files to a project based on build configuration.
* Incompatibility across versions. Try using VS 6 and a few versions of VS
* Bugginess. VS
* Stupid file formats. Ever tried checking VS 6's
* A pain to set build options. Metrowerks' IDE's build prefs GUI was *much* more logically laid out. You should be able to find basic build options in a GUI within a week of using it. A month after I started using VS, I was *still* wasting huge amounts of time finding various build options in VS. That's silly.
* Can't generate nice graphical call graphs, a la ncc/codeviz.
* Relatively slow -- this is the make system, not the compiler itself. GNU Make is much faster than Microsoft's make system.
* Creates a *ton* of files in projects created. I'd expect a project file, full stop. They have project files, workspace files, cache files,
* The compiler has stopped supporting the current C language.
The only really nice things that I can think of about Microsoft's dev tools are:
* The editor supports very good function completion -- a lot of people cite this as a killer feature. Emacs has etags and fume-mode related functionality. Both are more of a pain to use, and less featureful in some ways (like not showing types of a function being completed). On the other hand, I have had nastiness where the editor got confused about where a constant was defined, and I spent ages tracking down a bizarre bug with two identically-named constants in two projects.
* The debugger/compiler support source-level modification of running programs when one is debugging. God only knows what awful hacks were done to get this working, but apparently it works well enough for general use.
Really, a lot of the people that I know have used Borland's ancient IDE (I ha
May we never see th
First take out Microsoft by making Linux the most popular desktop OS.
Then make java open source.
ESR? Who he? Oh, this guy.
What apps? Please name a significant one.
InstallAnywhere, the cross-platform installer which is the industry standard for Windows apps, is a Java program.
interesting...
It is official; ESR confirms: SUN is dying
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered SUN when ESR confirmed that SUN market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that SUN has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. SUN is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last samag.com in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a ESR to predict SUN's future. The hand writing is on the wall: SUN faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for SUN because SUN is dying. Things are looking very bad for SUN. As many of us are already aware, SUN continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
SUN Java is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time Java developer Bill Joy only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: SUN is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
McNealy states that there are 7000 users of Java. How many users of Solaris are there? Let's see. The number of Java versus Solaris posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 Solaris users. This is consistent with the number of Solaris Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, SUN went out of business and was taken over by Microsoft who sell another troubled OS. Now Java is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that Java has steadily declined in market share. SUN is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If SUN is to survive at all it will be among dilettante dabblers. SUN continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, SUN is dead.
Fact: SUN is dying
Python script to convert photos into "artsy" portraits: http://p2pbridge.sf.net/pyPortrait/
They bought it from Appeal
My guess is these people, much like the majority of us, don't want him being their spokesperson. Particularly one who has basically been appointed by noone but himself.
My bet is before the year is out Sun will have divested at least part of its interest in Java to one of either: IBM or Oracle. Some folks at Sun may prefer Java to go open source, but Sun needs the cash and Java is something they can sell (it's not like they can sell much hardware these days).
rf
Or, you can think of it this way: Java is so overly complicated that it requires twice as many books and double the manpower for equivalent projects.
There's a reason we go for more "scientific" evaluations, otherwise the "data" can go both ways.
I was thinking something along the lines of:
...
My Open Letter To Beyonce
Well, we'd have a steaming hot cup of coffee up against a musical notation looking thingy. How is this going to end? Will Java scald C# to death with it's hot acid coffee bath?
I'm not an economist, or a stockbroker. And yet, even I know the difference between share price and market capitalization.
Number of shares outstanding of RedHat (RHAT) stock: 1.7 million, according to their investor's FAQ.
Number of shares outstanding of Sun Microsystems (SUNW): 3.236 billion, according to their investor's FAQ.
Market capitalization of Red Hat, based on a stock price of $18.31 per share: about $31 million.
Market capitalization of Sun Microsystems, based on a stock price of $5.6 dollars per share: about $18.26 billion.
There are good business reasons for open sourcing Java, but saying, "One day, you may be as successful as a company with one-onethousandth of your total market value!" probably isn't the best way to convince them.
should be able to solve the CR trouble. just run a converter triggered by commits.
I change a name of a member variable in C# via the property view and what does it do? it changes the name only where declared. how utterly useless. if i do the same thing in eclipse it changes the name everywhere it is used. and this is probably the most basic example of refactoring(eclipse makes refactoring a joy). after having the pleasure of using some ides with proper refactoring i simply feel hamstrung when using one of MSs environments. this is yet another example of them refusing to innovate - they have a browser that is all but useless due to no tabs or popup blocking and their IDEs are becoming increasingly useless when compared to those out there with some incredible innovation...
I had heard from a sun employee (~6 months ago) that Gosling wanted to make it open source, because he was doing a research project that nobody could help him on without being able to use the 1.5 compiler. Nevertheless it was getting held up in bureaucracy. But that should have cleared up 6mo ago, so that's a good reason to be posting this as Anonymous Coward.
Friends, freaks, and communists:
ESR the renowned assmonkey from PA, who apparently lives in a trailer is back. And he's got aged DUMP for sale. Oh yeah, we're talkin' quality manure from the world's most lonely fag ! Shit. This dude's never even smelt a real piece of meat..
Why does he want Java to be set free ?!? Because, Linux fags are the most dull programmers in the world and want to create nothing but steal other people's stuff, and IP (Intellectual Property). So here's a guy who started selling his DUMP 5 years ago, and he's back with shitloads of the best aged and prime ESR SHIT !!
Obviously you Linux fags who can't afford a real OS like OpenBSD, should flock and eat his SHIT. Hey, btw, whatever happened to MSFT's stock crashing down because of the open source movement.
You hypocritical motherfuckers. Sorry, I take that back. Fatherfuckers.... after all you are a bunch of dump eating commies...
Java is already more ubiquitious than C# -- so what would Sun stand to gain from setting it free?
What does Sun lose by setting it free if they have no intention of changing the licensing terms in a year and screwing us over? As you said, you have full access to Sun's source code for the JVM and Java classes.
Someone needs a hug.
Meep.
Now this is obviously not scientific, but it doesn't appear that java is hurting.
Tell that to Netscape who had a giant lead on IE in the beginning... but now measure the size of Mickey Mouse's pecker...
Sorry, but I almost have to roll over laughing - you seriously think that C is more portable than Java???? Sure, most C projects you can compile on a lot of (Unix) platforms, but that is only because the developers went through a lot of hard working adapting compiler switches, making amends for the various libraries etc. If you think that's fun and it's how you want to spent your time, sure, go ahead. I guess those thousands of lines of makefiles can be written within a few mionutes, right?
Citing Internet Explorer applets that don't run in other browsers also just shows how little you know the subject. For your info: Microsoft has created it's own Java variant for IE, which of course isn't compatible with REAL Java. Don't blame Java for the stupidity of developers who fell for that ploy. And it's precisely why SUn doesn't want to make Java open - because that way they can sue competitiors who do such things, and at least try to keep Java compatible.
I'm using Java Cross platform all the time, ie I do my development on a WIndows machine, then deploy the Servlet on a Linux box - I have no problems at all with it. Frankly, I am not that concerned about my Linux box still running Java 1.1 code, either. Really, who cares - although I suspect it would actually work. True, sometimes there are incompatibilities across versions, but that's just what happens everywhere. Sometimes you just have to upgrade your stuff, such are our modern times.
java is a good maintained, mature, cross-platform language. what is your problem?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I really don't understand the Slashdot community sometimes. They complain about how Java is closed-source, though much of it is under Apache (or Apache-like) licenses (with Apache actually on the JCP)... I can download Java APIs, and write things against them with no problems. I can license my programs using Apache, BSD, or even my own licensing.
GPL, on the other hand, is closed off to most of the business community. I can't download a GPL (read GPL not LGPL) library and write a GUI front-end for it, unless I want to make my app GPL as well. That means that GPL places restrictions on me that the Java platform does not.
I think many Slashdotters see GPL as the de'facto standard for Open Source, and anything else as completely closed source. That is complete propaganda. GPL has the same effect that Proprietary code does -- you have to go and re-invent the wheel if you need/want to use a different licensing scheme. That is why many companies refuse to even let their employees browse through GPL software when looking for solutions. Intel told me not to even read the documentation for GPL software. Any other license (including LGPL) was fine.
What I am saying here is that I think people are Anti-Java-Licensing NOT because it has ANY impact on their product, but because it isn't the more restrictive GPL license.
I know many of you may want to flame me for this comment (in which case you might be one of those I mentioned), but take a moment to really think about what I said and look around. There is a lot of great BSD-licensed Java software on Sourceforge. Couldn't do that if Java was GPL'd.
http://www.google.com/profiles/malachid
MS wanted to own/kill Java for a long time. IBM wants to have control over Java. Now lets say Java goes free. 20 different not entirely compatible VMs are created. (How many similar but not entirely compatible GNU/Linux distros do we have :) MS creates a JVM (very crippled since now they have .Net and fair competition is a no-no) lets call JavaDOA.Net and release it with winXP 'Screw you and you'll like it' edition. EOL the old versions and that's it. No more Java. A good, object oriented, standard, extremely well documented, nearly write once run anywhere language goes the way of the Dodo. Is that really what we want? Java is a community process language. The community participates heavily. The only difference from truly 'Free' is that Sun can tell the likes of M$ to shove-it (as they did before). They keep the JVM standard and compatible! Thank your respective deity that Java is not 'entirely free'. Java is a good example of free for you and stable for me. If you cant see it, go port some 'standard' C++ code between windows and *nix(s), and we will talk again when you are done going bald. Not every peace of software has to be entirely 'Free'.
Free speech is getting expensive...
freeing Java and thus putting an army of FOSS developers behind it is Sun's best hope for staying in the server market.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
Glad somebody pointed this out ... yes, stock price is meaningless for comparison purposes, but market cap. is meaningless also: you can validly argue that a small (in market cap) but successful tech company is making better choices than a big, failing company. I think this is what Raymond was trying to get across, but using the wrong metric to do it, and yes losing some credibility as you say.
... See:
= m&q=l&c=rhat
= m&q=l&c=rhat
What Raymond should have said was that Sun could be like R'hat and have over 200% growth in its stock, for the last two years instead of shrinkage
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SUNW&t=2y&l=off&z
This comparison in growth would be fair, at least not outright wrong at least for the two-year time frame.
But it would mask the fact that RedHat is still the wet spot left by a burst bubble:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SUNW&t=5y&l=off&z
which would be dishonest.
-
they talk as if the proprietary companies are doing something unethical by keeping their crown jewels that they worked to develop, and making money off of them.
OSS has it's place. in areas where the high cost of development software stifles development, OSS can open up opportunities and jobs for Linux savvy programmers and admins.
but in the areas where commercial software is being sold strictly for use by the consumer. OSS stifles the ability to make profit.
why would anyone buy when they can get for free?
there must be a finely balanced mix of OSS and Proprietary to drive innovation. companies will innovate to compete with OSS and add value to proprietary software in order to make you want to buy instead of get for free. this drives innovation in both camps as they keep trying to one up each other.
big companies are paying OSS developers to develop software which leads to innovation, and developers are creating software that needs them to support it which creates jobs.
but companies should still be able to come up with a new idea and sell it exclusively. there is room for both ways. and OSS will keep them from selling it at too high of a price and sparking an OSS version too soon.
balance grasshopper.
The NeWS communinty inside and outside of Sun tried making many of the same arguments in 1987, before the term "open source" was coined, to convince Sun to distribute the NeWS source code for free.
James Gosling recruited me to work on NeWS at Sun, by promising "We'll get it out, even if I have to spill some real blood on the floor." A lot of blood was certainly spilled, but we never got NeWS out for free. I wish he was right, when he told me "The folks running the show now have more guts."
But they didn't, and still don't, and never will. So why would anyone ever believe that Sun would actually make Java free, even if James Gosling promised you personally that he would spill some real blood on the floor to make it happen?
The following messages led to James Gosling taking me to lunch during a job interview at Sun, and totally convincing me that Sun was absolutely serious about making NeWS free. So I accepted the job offer from Sun, instead going to Xerox PARC, based on that belief.
But the closest Sun ever came to making NeWS free was declaring it "free", but charging $995 for media, and not allowing anyone to redistribute it without buying a $995 CDROM first.
-Don
====
Date: Sat 3 Mar 1990 09:17:06 PST
From: James Gosling <jag@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: sun's commitment to NeWS
To: Don Hopkins <don@cs.UMD.EDU>
It's like working at a new company. Right now, the biggest problem in making the NeWS server freely available is the fonts: we don't own them, so we can't distribute them. There are a few public domain fonts, but they're mostly uninteresting. People who want the fonts for non-sun platforms will have to get licenses from the font houses.
We'll be in New York in May for a few days. We might be able to drop in then. When you're out here, you'll definatly have to spend some time with us.
====
Date: Tue 6 Mar 1990 08:37:51 PST
From: James Gosling <jag@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Sun's response to the net
To: Don Hopkins <don@cs.UMD.EDU>
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
"much of it"... except the JVM, perhaps?
GPLing the JVM would be a very wise choice for Sun, for exactly the "business unfriendly" reasons you cite. Java would get the benefits of widespread adoption by the Free Software community; at the same time, if firms want to write proprietary apps against it, they'd have to pay for a license, thus preserving healthy revenue streams for Sun.
Fixing copyright
Photoshop!
I wish it were that ESR was unique amongst the ./ population. But the sad truth here is that an ever so small percentage of /.er folk understand even the most basic of economics, accounting, or finance. I know this is a geek forum, but come on guys, pick up a basic "Business for Dummies" book or go take BUS101 at your local community college.
You really need to know why the $ price of your options, in and of itself, is irrelevant without knowing the market cap, the exercise price, the iso-qual status, and the post tax impact.
I asked a friend who works in the stock market to evaluate my statement, and he responded with the following explanation (paraphrased):
I'm not sure that bears at all on this particular conversation, but I laughed until soda came out of my nose, so I felt it worth mentioning.
is what you really meant, isn't it? Why free one dude when you can free a whole country?
Besides Russell Means should be able to buy off some judges with his "Last of the Mohicans" royalties.
Let me put it in perspective.
Fifteen months ago my wife had our first baby. Three months ago she had our second one (yeah, we worked fast). Right now, today, she's a good bit thinner than Ceren and she has lost only five pounds from her weight when she came home from the hospital.
Ceren may not be terribly fat by American standards, but that is only because such a large percentage of our population is clinically obese. However, if she is fatter than a woman who just had two babies back to back, she's, well, fat.