Sun has only recently (in Solaris 7) made CDE their default desktop (announcement of CDE default desktop made in 1993). So that only took about 5 years -- when do think GNOME will actually become the Sun default desktop? 2001? 2002? 2003? Ever?
Do you think that HP are actually going to rush to discard CDE (a.k.a. HP VUE)? I don't think so. And IBM haven't committed to making GNOME their default at all (nor much else, for that matter).
But Sun got an amazing amount of attention from the press and others by hijacking Linuxworld to make the announcement. And Sun (in the person of Ed Zander, no less) have also stated publically that they will never support Linux. All the wood behind the Solaris arrowhead.
Seems to me that all is not what it seems.
Maybe, but you miss my point: the code we're talking about is not *going* to be written for gtk DnD -- it's already been written for Motif and is not about to get changed any day soon. There are millions of lines of Motif code in thousands of apps in banks, defense, NASA, teelcoms, cellular management, that nobody is going to change. It's simply not cost-effective.
Q: "How much does creation of GNOME Foundation affect the use of Motif and CDE in the real world?"
A: "As much as the birth of the last baby polar bear at the Quebec City Zoo" (i.e., not at all)
It's time for the community to wake up to the startling fact that the vast majority of UNIX applications today are Motif applications -- and that is not about to change now or for years. Work it out: critical applications are in use, so nobody is going to undertake needless ports to a new look and feel at great expense with the sole result of confusing the user community. It gets worse: GNOME/GTK+ and Motif applications will hardly co-exist. Motif is Xt-based, GTK+ is not. So drag 'n' drop, for example, won't work between Motif and GTK+ apps on the same desktop. Just what the poor end-loser wanted.
Anybody who thinks that the shift to GNOME on Sun's customer base will happen quickly or even at all is on the wrong planet.
You're right of course. S'funny how UKUSA gets ignored and gets rediscovered as a great conspiracy every so often. The existence of the treaty is not classified in itself, as I'm sure you're aware. Sadly, the most outraged by it are those whose freedoms are a direct result of it . . .
This is yet another piece of French petulance because their repeated requests to join the UKUSA pact have been rejected (UKUSA is the 1948 treaty under which signals intelligence is shared between the UK, USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.) They refused to join in the last bit of nastiness against Iraq because of it. In comparison, the Australians assisted immediately - but then, they already *knew* what was going on in Iraq because of - yes - the UKUSA pact. I'll leave the readers to surmise as to why the French don't get allowed to have the priceless primary intelligence. --
Especially Shallow Palo Alto?!? Hang on, I *like* Palo Alto. No culture? Hardly so, you're obviously hanging around the wrong bars;-) Of course I cheat -- I have a home in England as well . . .
Touche. Although TB-L developed the mechanism at CERN and certainly this was made freely available. However, NCSA Mosaic (the first browser As We Know It, Jim) was proprietary. Indeed, Netscape hired a software copyright specialist to make sure that they didn't infringe copyright with Navigator.
Sadly, if you ask the Man in the Street who invented the Internet or Web, he's quite likely to reply "Microsoft", such is the power of the brand.
Bertrand Meyer alludes to an important point -- but fails to drive it home -- when me mentions the dependence of GIMP on the design of Adobe Photoshop. The open source/free software movement is full of copies of commercial software -- there seems to be very little innovation. In this respect the free software movement bears a striking resemblance to Microsoft. Name a great new idea or innovative product from either "organization", to use the word at its loosest. One answer might be, I guess, Microsoft's software marketing, while the free software people's only real contribution of novelty to software seems to be the fact that it is, er, free. Everything seems to have been invented at Xerox PARC. It's also sad that Bertrand undermines his own position by indulging in a wild attack on "gun lunatics" when, I suspect, what he is actually advocating is reasonable controls to prevent, as far as is possible, guns being sold to the criminally insane. He descends, therefore, to the same level as some of the more wild-eyed, foam-flecked lip ravings of the open source/free software advocates.
Why not? Because you have to build different designs for C++ and Java -- you can't switch between the two from one single GUI design like you can with Sun Forte C++/WorkShop or X-Designer. And another thing, it's the Open Group web site that hosts the Open Motif release. There are also releases of Open Motif from Metrolink and from IST - who also built the Open Motif source release for Open Group.
IST's X-Designer will generate both C++ and Java (and Windoze MFC code) from a single Motif-based design. See www.ist.co.uk FYI, X-Designer is the tool that Sun adopted as their GUI builder for their Visual WorkShop. IST usually have a later version available than Sun at any time.
Links are the basic structural elements of the Web. No links, no web. So that takes care of the generality. If you publish information on the Web, you must expect to have links pointed at it. So the only remaining action can be for some infringement (copyright??) by the published material on the orginating site or sites. That doesn't look too strong, either, in this case. I hope the DVD manufacturers get nowhere with this -- I still haven't forgiven them for their stupid Region scheme, another utterly pointless piece of technology crippling which is a pain for this Region 1/2 commuter and his laptop.
You're absolutely right. For the paranoid, it's worth examining the role of the Dirty Digger (R. Murdoch) and his media. Only one non-Murodch paper campaigned against the UK firearms restrictions that ended target pistol shooting.
Your ham radio experience was completely atypical. And TCP/IP and Linux are used widely by hams. Try again, perhaps you were being wound up (hams do that too). --
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Sun has only recently (in Solaris 7) made CDE their default desktop (announcement of CDE default desktop made in 1993). So that only took about 5 years -- when do think GNOME will actually become the Sun default desktop? 2001? 2002? 2003? Ever? Do you think that HP are actually going to rush to discard CDE (a.k.a. HP VUE)? I don't think so. And IBM haven't committed to making GNOME their default at all (nor much else, for that matter). But Sun got an amazing amount of attention from the press and others by hijacking Linuxworld to make the announcement. And Sun (in the person of Ed Zander, no less) have also stated publically that they will never support Linux. All the wood behind the Solaris arrowhead. Seems to me that all is not what it seems.
Maybe, but you miss my point: the code we're talking about is not *going* to be written for gtk DnD -- it's already been written for Motif and is not about to get changed any day soon. There are millions of lines of Motif code in thousands of apps in banks, defense, NASA, teelcoms, cellular management, that nobody is going to change. It's simply not cost-effective.
Q: "How much does creation of GNOME Foundation affect the use of Motif and CDE in the real world?" A: "As much as the birth of the last baby polar bear at the Quebec City Zoo" (i.e., not at all) It's time for the community to wake up to the startling fact that the vast majority of UNIX applications today are Motif applications -- and that is not about to change now or for years. Work it out: critical applications are in use, so nobody is going to undertake needless ports to a new look and feel at great expense with the sole result of confusing the user community. It gets worse: GNOME/GTK+ and Motif applications will hardly co-exist. Motif is Xt-based, GTK+ is not. So drag 'n' drop, for example, won't work between Motif and GTK+ apps on the same desktop. Just what the poor end-loser wanted. Anybody who thinks that the shift to GNOME on Sun's customer base will happen quickly or even at all is on the wrong planet.
You're right of course. S'funny how UKUSA gets ignored and gets rediscovered as a great conspiracy every so often. The existence of the treaty is not classified in itself, as I'm sure you're aware. Sadly, the most outraged by it are those whose freedoms are a direct result of it . . .
This is yet another piece of French petulance because their repeated requests to join the UKUSA pact have been rejected (UKUSA is the 1948 treaty under which signals intelligence is shared between the UK, USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.) They refused to join in the last bit of nastiness against Iraq because of it. In comparison, the Australians assisted immediately - but then, they already *knew* what was going on in Iraq because of - yes - the UKUSA pact. I'll leave the readers to surmise as to why the French don't get allowed to have the priceless primary intelligence. --
Especially Shallow Palo Alto?!? Hang on, I *like* Palo Alto. No culture? Hardly so, you're obviously hanging around the wrong bars ;-) Of course I cheat -- I have a home in England as well . . .
Touche. Although TB-L developed the mechanism at CERN and certainly this was made freely available. However, NCSA Mosaic (the first browser As We Know It, Jim) was proprietary. Indeed, Netscape hired a software copyright specialist to make sure that they didn't infringe copyright with Navigator.
Sadly, if you ask the Man in the Street who invented the Internet or Web, he's quite likely to reply "Microsoft", such is the power of the brand.
Bertrand Meyer alludes to an important point -- but fails to drive it home -- when me mentions the dependence of GIMP on the design of Adobe Photoshop. The open source/free software movement is full of copies of commercial software -- there seems to be very little innovation. In this respect the free software movement bears a striking resemblance to Microsoft. Name a great new idea or innovative product from either "organization", to use the word at its loosest. One answer might be, I guess, Microsoft's software marketing, while the free software people's only real contribution of novelty to software seems to be the fact that it is, er, free. Everything seems to have been invented at Xerox PARC. It's also sad that Bertrand undermines his own position by indulging in a wild attack on "gun lunatics" when, I suspect, what he is actually advocating is reasonable controls to prevent, as far as is possible, guns being sold to the criminally insane. He descends, therefore, to the same level as some of the more wild-eyed, foam-flecked lip ravings of the open source/free software advocates.
Why not? Because you have to build different designs for C++ and Java -- you can't switch between the two from one single GUI design like you can with Sun Forte C++/WorkShop or X-Designer. And another thing, it's the Open Group web site that hosts the Open Motif release. There are also releases of Open Motif from Metrolink and from IST - who also built the Open Motif source release for Open Group.
IST's X-Designer will generate both C++ and Java (and Windoze MFC code) from a single Motif-based design. See www.ist.co.uk FYI, X-Designer is the tool that Sun adopted as their GUI builder for their Visual WorkShop. IST usually have a later version available than Sun at any time.
Links are the basic structural elements of the Web. No links, no web. So that takes care of the generality. If you publish information on the Web, you must expect to have links pointed at it. So the only remaining action can be for some infringement (copyright??) by the published material on the orginating site or sites. That doesn't look too strong, either, in this case. I hope the DVD manufacturers get nowhere with this -- I still haven't forgiven them for their stupid Region scheme, another utterly pointless piece of technology crippling which is a pain for this Region 1/2 commuter and his laptop.
Goodie, I can't wait to get one -- but will it let me Zonecode my recordings so that I can control my roll-out ;-)
You're absolutely right. For the paranoid, it's worth examining the role of the Dirty Digger (R. Murdoch) and his media. Only one non-Murodch paper campaigned against the UK firearms restrictions that ended target pistol shooting.
Your ham radio experience was completely atypical. And TCP/IP and Linux are used widely by hams. Try again, perhaps you were being wound up (hams do that too). --