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Pioneer to sell first recordable DVD decks
Element5 writes "Netcenter's Tech News reports that Pioneer will be selling the first DVD players (not DVD-ROM drives) to be able to record up to six hours of programming to rewritable discs. Check out the story. Pricing is high, as expected: $2399 US for the unit, $28.79 per disc. " And watch closely, as the film industry gets a panicked look in their eyes. Update: 11/27 08:47 by H : Thanks to Jim Choate for the story that Panasonic has introduced DVD-RAM for only 700$US.
Maybe the SW trilogy, or six hours of Looney Toons, or six hours of porn. If someone wants six hours of stuff on a single ~$29 disc rather than pay ~$87 for three discs with two hours of stuff on each, they'll do it.
>Clueless journalists!
Clueless poster! Next time, *think*.
On the bottom of the linked page is an even better article- 'UK Men Use Internet to Buy Women to Browse-Study'.Oh wait, there's a comma in there...
DVD-RAM's as they're called have been around for about 2 years. All you needed to record TV shows was a recording program and CD recording software. On a 5 gig DVD-RAM you can store 2 hours of 640x480 15fps MJPA movies, or a virtually unlimited size MPEG-I movie. The hardware only costs $500 today. A blank DVD-RAM costs $25, and is fixed to match the cost of official movie releases.
Thanks to Jim Choate for the story that Panasonic has introduced DVD-RAM for only 700$US. Old news. These days you can get a DVD-RAM from Creative Labs for $300USD from Creative themselves or for $240-$250USD from any number of resellers. It (of course) doesn't ship with Linux drivers, though.
Actually there are useful illegal applications of this newly available technology. It is not difficult to download entire movies in digital format. Most people don't have the bandwidth to do it, but movies, such as the Phantom Menace, are available from pirate sites. Maybe I'm not with the times, but I do just fine with my two VCRs. Although I have to admit the multilingual option on some DVDs is pretty cool There are some movies that I know every line in the movie to already. Then if I watched the movie in another language, I could learn it painlessly. Information should be free anyways not just a priviledge of the rich. Kill the money mongering industry which tries to keep information from the people!! FIGHT OPRESSION!!!
Sounds like a pretty standard definition of theft to me. In the UK (where I am) a person commits theft if he "dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it" (Theft Act 1968 Section 1). I believe the USA has a similar definition and I would think most other common law jurisdictions would too, if you know better please cite the relevant definition.
The "property" in this case is the legal right to copy. The owner continues to have that right, there is no way that someone can take it away from him other than by legal means. Widespread violation of this legal right might reduce the value of their property but they are not deprived of it. It is not theft.
That's not a comment on morality, not does it change the fact that breach of copyright is illlegal. But it really really really isn't theft.
I never said it was bout the 10 commandments. I stated it as a lack of integrity. I hope you at least agree with the 2 commandments I gave. Just because they are commandments, doesn't mean they are evil. Whimsically avoiding the real issue doesn't make it dissappear. As much as we all like to drink away our problems, they still happen to be there in the morning (along with the new problem of a killer hangover).
>so the rubber coating won't help.
In fact the rubber coating most likely will cause more problems that it solves. Can you say overheated componets on the circuit boards creating a fire hazzard? Sure you can. I *LOVE* the smell of smothering rubber in the morning.....
The creative DVD-ram does not use traditional DVD's, but rather a special format only unsable by creative dvd-rams. They're not even playable in regular DVD-players. There is a picture of these square dvd-rams here.As I understand, the pioneer device's discs can be played in standard dvd-drives.
bbbuuuurrrrrpppp...
'nuff said
Well it would be the same as dropping $5,000 (or whatever it costs for the raw materials) off at a BMW dealer ship and driving away with a z3. I dont' know what you want to call it, but me it sounds like theft. You are doing basically the same thing when you copy software illegaly (e.g. only paying for distribution media -- generally $0).
I presume you're talking about audio-only DVDs (e.g. an MP3 player reading off DVD) because in the UK, it's illegal to have a TV in view of the car driver (you can have one viewable only from the back seat though) for the obvious safety reasons.
You stupid bitch! Get in the kitchen and fix me a chicken pot pie!
Apple G4's have been shipping re-writable DVD's for months...
Too late; it's already here. Ia ia Shub-Internet fhtagn!
Shub-Internet:
* Forces people to consume HARD-CORE PORN!
* Lures YOUNG KIDS to COMPLETE STRANGERS!
* CONS people out of their MONEY on E-BAY!
* Lets those evil CRYPTO-FREAKS conspire secretly!
* Forces your EMPLOYEES to do ZERO work in a day!
Quick! Ban the Internet!
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Yes, but the movie studios are indicating that they are going to go to the VHS pricing model with DVD in 2000, so upon initial release most movies will be $80. or higher.
It wasn't intended as a troll. Works pretty well as one, though.
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
Screw movies. I just want to use DVD-RAM to store home videos, preferrable recorded with a digital video camera. How soon will that be reasonably affordable?
The movie makers are making more money because now we're willing to pay a little for a movie we didn't think was worth the expense of a theater visit. So the video retailer gets a little money from many people and the movier makers get a little money from people who probably would have never paid to see the movie in a theater.
Sure, I could use my VCRs to copy rented videos. The few movies worth watching several times are cheap enough to buy. A little more money for the movie makers.
I use my VCR to time-shift a few favorite shows to times when it is convenient to watch them. That's of value to me, and the advertisers get me to see their commercials eventually.
What's the least expensive you've found?
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
As a low-budget film-maker I'm looking forward to the day when people can download my movies from a web page and burn them onto a DVD at home. This may upset the old guard in Hollywood, but it's good news for the new generation of independents, just like MP3s are for musicians without record contracts.
First CD writer I ever saw in a catalog
was $5000. They have come down since.
How many mp3's could be put on a DVD?
In your example, if you intended to permanently deprive the owner of the BMW then this would indeed be theft. You have appropriated his property with the intention of permanently depriving him of it. The leaving of money to compensate is irrelevant, even if you left the full sale value of the car or ten times the sale value of the car, in that case the dealer might be perfectly happy and not report it but it would be theft unless he actually agreed to the bargain. Until he actualy agreed to sell you the car it would still be his property.
If you just understand that there are two elements, 1. appropriating (taking if you like) someone's property, 2. intending to permanently deprive them of it, then you should be able to understand whether something constitutes theft.
In the case of illegally copying software, the owner retains his propert throughout. In this case the property he has is the legal right to copy the software, and he retains that right intact. There is no way that you can appropriate his right other than through legal means. Equally you don't appropriate the potential sales proceeds, as the software isn't purchased the sale proveeds never become his property, any money the copier has remains theirs throughout.
Now, you might think that it is morally equivalent to theft, that's fair enough. But saying you are doing the same thing is simply untrue - the definition of theft in most jurisdictions is very clear and clearly does not cover breaches of copyright law. If you feel that describing it as "theft" is a good analogy that gets across what you see as the moral equivalence then go ahead, but when challenged you need to show that you know what you're doing "I know it's not actually theft, but I use the word as an analogy", something like that. Insisting that the other person is using an unusual definition is silly unless you can substantiate that.
If you want to use accurate experssions, then "breach of copyright", "violation of copyright laws", "illegal copying" all seem like reasonable terms.
Actually, from what I understand, taking an encoded DVD, decoding it, and burning the decrypted data actually doesn't do squat for you. The movie displays with corruption on normal DVD players (but you can view the raw data still with an MPEG-2 decoder.. shrug).
Are there any digital inputs on these suckers? If so, wouldn't it only make the situation with DeCSS worse? Without a doubt, people would find a way to take video from the dvd discs and copy them in their original digital glory onto these new rewritable disks. All I can say is that I can't wait to get my hands on one of these :) .sig file corrupted.
- clowns are evil
Definitions of theft were also defined before this type of property was in existance. In essence they are teh same. In the case of the BMW, you are paying for the cost of the materials required to build it. You are not paying for developmernt costs, costs to pay the workers, research costs, or marketing costs. When you copy software, you are basically paying for costs to 'build' the software (e.g. next to 0, since we can all copy stuff on the internet), you are not paying for development, research, or marketing. The actions have exactly teh same effect. Just because the property has become more abstract and isn't tangible, doesn't mean it is NOT property. That is wehre the confusion with /. users is. Remeber, we left money for the BMW guy so he can build another car, so we really didn't deprive him of anything. Just because software is easier to duplicate doesn't mean it isn't the exact same thing.
"Definitions of theft were also defined before this type of property was in existance."
You're right that theft is one of the oldest crimes, another would be murder. Illegal copying of software isn't either, how long ago the crime was defined is irrelevant, neither crime is committed just by illegally copying software.
Coyright isn't exactly a new phenomenon either, people have been copying materials (books, music, pictures etc.) for centuries, breaches of these copyrights are not and never have been theft.
"In essence they are teh same."
No, the essence of theft (well, the actus reus anyway) is taking someone else's property. This does not occur in copying software.
"In the case of the BMW, you are paying for the cost of the materials required to build it. You are not paying for developmernt costs, costs to pay the workers, research costs, or marketing costs. When you copy software, you are basically paying for costs to 'build' the software (e.g. next to 0, since we can all copy stuff on the internet), you are not paying for development, research, or marketing. The actions have exactly teh same effect."
NO you completely misunderstand the nature of theft. Whether you leave something of value in exchange for the BMW is irrelevant, even if you leave something worth a thousand times more than the BMW you have still stolen it, UNLESS the dealer actually agreed to sell it to you. It is his property and you have taken it. It's value has nothing to do with this.
"Just because the property has become more abstract and isn't tangible, doesn't mean it is NOT property."
Sure, the property is the legal right to duplicate the software, impose licence conditions, etc. IF it was possible to illegally appropriate this right from its lawful ownere then it could be stolen, but it isn't. When you copy software the owner retains his property.
"Remeber, we left money for the BMW guy so he can build another car, so we really didn't deprive him of anything."
WRONG. You deprived him of his property i.e. the BMW. The value of this BMW or any compensation you were willing to leave is IRRELEVANT to whether this constitutes theft.
"Just because software is easier to duplicate doesn't mean it isn't the exact same thing."
But duplicating the software is NOT theft. Just like if you could make a perfect duplicate of the BMW you would not be stealing it, you might be acting illegally for example by violating patents held by BMW but you would not be committing theft.
Theft is a very straight forward easy to understand law, you should not be having this much trouble with it.
If it helps, think of it this way, try to find one person who has EVER been found guilty of theft when the act they've done is illegally copied copyright material(software, books, whatever).
The only useful illegal application would be to keep rentals longer ... and i don't think too many people would be willing to go through all the trouble ...
DVD is secure as long as DVD-R discs stay expensive.
you are good. Please make a geocities page to this unmeasurably good success and share it with us. I would love to see it.
Nascantur in Admiratione. (Let them be born in Wonder)
to see all of the uber elite first posts, check out http://www.firstposts.com/slashdot.shtml
Notice that it's probably a consumer division of Pioneer which is running the commercial showing a dual CD/CD-R device for copying audio CDs. I don't see that device on their Web sites, although their CD-R recognition is apparent in this Pioneer article about consumer CD-R uses.
Notice that it's probably a consumer division of Pioneer which is running the commercial showing a dual CD/CD-R device for copying audio CDs. I don't see that device on their Web sites, although their CD-R recognition is apparent in this Pioneer article about consumer CD-R uses.
According to this:m l
http://www.toshiba.com/taecdpd/products/dvd.sht
this has been around for over two years...
I don't know where the hell you rent your movies, but around here it's $3.50 a night ! (unless you want to rent something that has been out for a looong time...
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
What else might the film industry try? No more DVD decryption keys for Pioneer?
:-)
What would Pioneer care? They'd just use their revoked key to brute force the 408 other keys.
>Yup. We still go to movie theaters for some shows
:)
>and some reasons. Big screen, better sound, more
>companions..
Don't forget to buttery popcorn, massive drinks and terrible seats.
Yeah. I like theatres.
Um, $80 is not the "VHS model" unless you're talking about the price charged for movies to the video rental stores. $80/DVD will never be something the consumer will be expected to pay. It it was, it'd be death for the movie studios. High prices won't make any profit if no one's buying the discs. Further, higher prices will increase piracy, which anyone would be a fool not to EXPECT.
Yes, the price is ludicrous now, but *every* technology started highly-priced and came down over time - Mini Disc players are now just over 100 pounds in the UK and blank Mini Discs are under 2 pounds each and yet both they started at 4 times that price !
I can't wait to ditch archaic tape-based VHS VCRs and move onto re-recordable DVD so I can re-record/archive my favourite TV programmes. Until then, read-only DVD holds absolutely zero attraction for me (I have no wish to spend up to 20 pounds to watch a movie, no matter how wondrous its quality).
Death to VHS VCRs, you know it makes sense... How many DVD owners out there don't have a VHS VCR ? None I bet cos you can't record on DVD units...until now.
The real question is 'how much have CD-ROM burners hurt the videogame/software market?' A lot. From the geek perspective, not as much, because we either copy our own stuff or know somebody, but Playstation bootlegs cost $10. And those are usually copies of a rented copy, hence tons of profit for even the earliest people with questionable morals who plunked down the cash for a burner.
One of the CD's (and presumable DVD's) earliest problems is what dooms it to be readily copied. The biggest complaint about CDs was that they couldn't have the big artwork or cool liner notes like an album. They are compact by nature, and utilitarian, and therefore easily and willingly copied.
If the DVD burn trade takes off like the PS did, and the prices of the medium go down, I expect that a lot of people will buy The Mummy or whatever disposable movies come out next summer because they liked it. Then they'll have coasters for drinks forever.
As a result, retailers and the MPAA won't be able to rely on an act of caprice while waiting in the express lane at Target. Next Christmas, nobody will buy George of the Jungle 2. Brendan Fraser will suffer. When Brendan suffers, we all suffer.
I am my own home. - Banana Yoshimoto
Hes talking about the VCD scene on the internet, not the real world, VCDs are becoming as popular as MP3s, with major movies available via IRC before they are even on tape. (Infact, I got American Pie 3 weeks before it hit the theaters :)
.VOBs (video files on DVD)
As bandwidth increases, VCDs use will increase, unless people start passing around 10gig+
--
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The pricing on movies depends on how likely someone is to buy it, or rent it. No one pays the full price anyway. (Major chains get the video for almost nothing and pay the studio part of the profits). Jurassic Park sold for only $14, $9 with a rebate.
--
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
So, when are we going to get the ability to make a bonafide duplicate of a DVD? With the extra tracks, dialogue in Swahili, and irritating commentary by directors? If they weren't so damned expensive, this might not be a bad way to get Buffy the Vampire Slayer on DVD. Wish the industry would catch on and start selling more than movies on DVD. You know you want to watch Twin Peaks with Lynch voiceover. Do not lie to us.
An enormous hard drive you will need...
--
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
> I have 1575 MP3 files in 5.90 gigs sitting on my hard drive. If a DVD disc will hold 5 gigs, that gives: 5.90/1575 = 5/x = roughly 1335 MP3 files. (if my MP3 files are about average size)
;-)
Does that mean I can put every single release of
"Now Thats What I Call Music"
[AFAIK there's 44 at the last count]
on 1 DVD ?
Anyone think of any more useless uses for DVD ?
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I don't think it's the FBI warnings that keep people from copying tapes, but the fact that you need TWO VCRs to make a copy. For the average home user, this will be a problem with DVDs as well.
..noone would go this route for mass copying of DVDs
a) blank DVDs are still around twice the price of original DVDs
b) the recorder is fscking expensive
c) you aren't going to go into mass production with one of these things most DVD writers are only currently 1 or 2x standard DVD playback speed
All of these factors are probably going take at least a few years to disappear.
AFAIK, you can access all of a DVD with DeCSS, and any of the other tools out there, but until one or more of the above factors changes, the only reason for using such tools at the moment are for legal playback of DVDs on your systems.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Can you use them for storing normal data? Like say for an example I have 230 Mp3s can I put them on a DVD or is it only for Video?
Movie News - "Entertainment news, bitch!"
there is a company that makes two-tape VCRs....
Also, my fifth grade teacher used to borrow two VCRs from the school library, and copy video tapes during class...
No, no, no. Things which we don't have at home.
It's not the two-VCR problem which stops people. Look in today's paper at all the $100 VCRs. The average home user just isn't interested in copying tapes.
Imagine putting evey one of your favorite songs on a disk and going driving, so you never have to change another stupid CD. This is one more step toward that goal. (I've done some research and still can't find any DVD car decks.)
actually its $1.50 per disk in bulk or $2 per disk for a 10 or 5 pack. i also bought a philips cdd2600 for $100..works great on my sun ultra2.
Not to mention that I don't think that's the same format/hardware as what the article speaks of. DVD-RAM has been on the market for some time but it's just a glorfied PD drive and I'm not real impressed by it - have to have cartridges that you can't (reasonably) take the disc out of, it only goes up to 5.2GB, etc etc etc. Rather depressing. HiVal makes one, I think... I know LaCie does and so do some of the other hardware firms. I'm holding out.
ya. its called tivo. and source is available (finally!). www.tivo.com
According to the article this is a DVD-RW unit. Well, these have been avalible for computers for a while now, this would be the first stand alone unit AFAIK. Just like the stand alone audio CD-R recorders from Philips, Etc. Also there are 3 formats for recording DVD's. DVD-RAM, DVD-RW, and DVD-R. Consumer DVD players will only play factory DVD's and most will play DVD-R. None that I know or will touch either rewritable format. So, not really the thing for duping movies for your friends regardless of inputs or encription. They would need to have a DVD-ROM drive able to read RW, or the expensive Pioneer unit. That is if they don't monkey with the format to prevent this. Pioneer has made DVD-R drives for several years. Sonic Solutions sold me one with there DVD creation suite. They are quite exspensive (5K +), and connect up to to a system like a CD-R would. Check out http://www.videodiscovery.com/vdyweb/dvd/dvdfaq.ht m for more info.
Consider that we already have this fundamental technology (albeit in a cruder form) with VCR, but the majority of film viewers are completely incapacitated by a simple red and white FBI warning pasted at the header of each tape. That flimsy exercise of authority is enough to keep the common consumer in check.
A very parochial view. It doesn't scare a billion Chinese.
www.eetimes.com reported a startup has developed a MPEG2 software encoder that uses about 60% of a P3/500. The product was developed by the engineers formerly working on Cyrix chips.
The right to videotape a television show, my main use for a recordable DVD, is not a moral issue at all. It is a privacy right re-affirmed by the US Supreme Court in the Universal & Disney vs. Sony case. To remind everyone, these very short-sighted studios sued Sony to keep the VCR off the market as they could only see it as an "insturment of copyright violation". The Supremes sided with Sony, that the right to do what one wished in one's own home was far more important than the rights of the copyright holder. Thus, the entire home video market appeared and provides the majority of the money flowing into Hollywood these days. Idiots.
Copyright is a limited right granted to encourage creatitivy. It is not in involate right, unlimited or, in any way, a moral issue.
Copying a movie is not theft any more than zeroxing a newspaper article. "Theft" is taking something away from someone and depriving them of it. If I stole the negative of a film, and they were not able to make any prints that would be theft. When I videotape a movie, how I am depriving them of it? They still have it, they can sell as many copies as they wish. Only by re-defining "theft" as "...well, we might have sold you one" is nonsense. Only that the entire force of Hollywood has been applied to selling this idea that taking an intangible, that doing something that deprives no one of anything, is somehow "theft". You've been sold.
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
I'm sure.
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/1199comdex/TWB19 991116S0012
Please repeat your argument again, substituting videotape for CD or DVD. Now how does your prediction compare with what already happened?
No, you are far from the only one to note this. I, and many with me, have made parallels between the prohibition of the early part of this century (alcohol), and that of the latter (drugs), and the situation that this poses in cyberspace many times before here.
However, it goes way beyond just DVD movies, or even mp3 songs, and into the whole concept that anyone can be granted the control, or right to control, the flow of information. Enforcing that is impossible, for while I know its a cliche, information _does_ want to be free. When a society holds onto laws that it is obviously incapable of enforcing, and tries to make up for it by escalating the punishments (driving the market deeper underground) you get this situation.
I have no doubt that, if we do not do something, the IP war will do to our data networks what the war on drugs has done to our city cores.
-
We cannot reason ourselves out of our basic irrationality. All we can do is learn the art of being irrational in a reasonable way.
If it costs 20 dollars for a dvd and 30 for a dvd disc, do that math...
icq:=22921393;
Come on, you go to video store to dig good stuff, not the crap Hollywood release in the last two months. New movie you go toi theater to experience big screen and decent sound. (Good stereo equipment cost you 1000+ dollars, which is like 200-150 movies. Considering you are not a big movie guy, it probably takes you 4 years to watch that much movies. By the time you think your speakers are crap.
Even if you like a art house movie like, I don't know, Limey or Holy Smoke, I don't think you can find a lot of firend who would like to ip off the artist anyway. The other studio wh will take a hit of a cheap movie duplicating machine is Disney, because kids love to watch them for over 100 times. And a lot of their parents doesn't have the concept of conpemsation and copy right. Personally I wish Disney go to hell.
CY
Hmmmmm.. Well call me nuts but /. audience is mostly geeks who use.... *FREE SOFTWARE*. Does the erm *free* mean anything to you ?
/. recently has been teenagers that their only interest is to cause havoc and trouble. It's nice top be rebelious but only up to a limit. From recent threads (read the corel /debian article) what i see is a bunch of fanatics opening their mouths just to cause trouble and nothing more without thinking.Sad but true.
How can i be a "juarez kiddie" the moment i am using fscking free software???
And whether you believe it or not many of us actually PAY for and BUY that free software. Free software that can be downloaded or borrowed from a friend for free.
I have a cable at home and despite the fact that i can download most any distro with litle overhead i have been buying the infomagic CD's since redhat 5.0. I have also been buying FreeBSD since 2.8 and i use both at home religously.(freeBSD as my firewall and Redhat as my wks).
Do i copy movies? Hmmmm i'd have to say no. First of all i am lazy person.Even though i have a Video player in the bedroom AND in my livingroom i never really bothered to copy a VHS movie. I always though it was a waste of time. All the movies i really like i buy cause as my gf says "i like the pretty covers".
For me the 16 bucks i will pay to own the movie are nothing comopared to the trouble i will put myself to copy it.
Now what i DO copy RELIGOUSLY is TV shows. Specifically STar Trek the original series, Andy griffith show and some old classics the TV airs that i cannot buy at the store.And a DVD-RAM will make life OH SO EASIER for me. 25 bux and i can record half the Star Trek series on it.If the big bad industry is gonna hurt me in the process of going after the "juarez kiddies" then i say "well done juarez kiddies. They deserve it."
On a sidenote though i tend to agree with you.The croud that is festering around
Cheap vcr can't override the macrovision(or microvision?) You need to throw 200-300 dollars in it, if you know where to find.
CY
Well Sony thinks this is a big enough problem to constitute rubber? coating the PS2 boards to prevent chipping. This of course adds $10 to the manufacturing price. I'am not sure if this is actually going to be the case, but the idea has been brought to attention more than once. Joshua Yambert
("kitten vs. puppy vs. baby vs. new video card") a simple summary of my life.
DVDs should and must replace VHS, or else we'll be stuck in a blackhole forever. For careless consumers, a cartridge form of DVD is preferable (think how they handle tapes). Future DVD recorders should record to cheap DVD-R (or similar) disks for archiving, or DVD-RW (or similar) disks for repeat recording. On the computer side, DVD+RW, even though really late, should win after all. It's the same for PD/CD-RW. PD, backed by Toshiba, was there with 650MB and cheap LONG before CD-RW's price came down, yet at the end, CD-RW took over. Now, DVD-RAM is backed by Toshiba, and backward compatible to PD, while DVD+RW is backed by Sony/HP/Ricoh/Philips, therefore by logic, it would win for sure. Pioneer comes up with weird formats without any support (DVD-RW). DVD-R should be adopted by others, but DVD-RW is doomed to die. NEC's MMVFM (or something like that) was just hype and never true. Ideal home in 2004 : HDTV, Playstation2(or equivalent set-top box), DVD-Audio/SACD, DVD video recorder, and all connected by HAVi/1394.
I even prefer full-priced evening theater over friday afternoon discount. The two of my most wonderful movie crowd expeiences this year were My Neighbor Totoro at MoMA and Being John Marcovich at a packed house at 8pm. People were laughing, in the right place. Not those "I know every joke I must laugh harder to remind you" type. People were eager to encouraging artists' subtle and intelligent humors. You just felt so relex and concentrated.
:)
In contrary, I had a terrible time watching There's something about Mary with, er, 3 people. I knew I would have preciated Mary more if I watch it with people, Mary is exactly the kind of movie that really needs a good crowd. Although Kingpin is better
Call me paranoid, but...
The price listed for the unit is 250,000 JPY. Netscape indicates that the dollar equivilant is $2,399. Well, it's actually $2,460 now. Yes, I realize that the Yen has only recently strengthened; HOWEVER, why does Netscape happen to do the conversion at the moment it was $2,399?
Everybody knows companies realize that 2,399 seems a lot cheaper to the average American than 2,400. It would seem to me that Netscape went a little out of their way to do what would be in the best interests of Pioneer. They also don't mention how the music industry might feel about this... This article seems to be nothing more than an advertisement or a press release from Pioneer.
So, I conclude: Anything Netscape "reports" should be taken with a grain of salt. Most journalism should... Do you have any idea who owns NBC?
God bless Slashdot! Even the moderators get moderated.
Calling out bogus battery capacity claims.
The real question is 'how much have CD-ROM burners hurt the videogame/software market?' A lot.
Really? I could, of course, be entirely out to lunch but I really don't see bootleggers affecting the industry as a whole. Within their realm, sure--none of them or their friends actually buy software. How much of the market do they comprise? More importantly, how much of the market that would purchase this software if they couldn't pirate it do they comprise? In other words, what percentage of potential sales are lost, due to piracy?
One of the CD's (and presumable DVD's) earliest problems is what dooms it to be readily copied. The biggest complaint about CDs was that they couldn't have the big artwork or cool liner notes like an album.
Actually, that's a good point. You see the marketing machines trying to combat that aspect, though. "Be the first on your block to own the super-limited collector's edition of George of the Jungle 2!" Hey, it works more often than not. Even when they can get burns or borrow a friends' VCR, most people buy their movies and software.
Next Christmas, nobody will buy George of the Jungle 2.
Oh no, a tragedy in the making!
:-)
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
THAT is *YOUR* idea of the definition of theft, and is not the *STANDARD* definition of theft. You know that and I know that. If you want to change the definition, it would perhaps be better to try to convince concerened parties instead of using strong arm tactics (e.g. copying with a disreguard to the rights of the creator). THEY CREATED THE PRODUCT. If they didn't create it, you couldn't copy it.
I'm not talking about people like you. I'm talking about people who download whatever they want from napster without half a thought to what they are actually doing. THESE are the people I am talking about. I don't see any reason why the same can not happen with dvds. E.g. transferance over the internet and then burning on to dvd to sell (or use illegally privately). I have no qualms with your use of dvd-ram's because the programs you mentioned generate their main revenue stream from advertising, (which you obviously watched at one point). However, I do have a problem when people do this for movies.
Well I know a variety of people from a variety of backgrounds with playstations. The statistical evidence suggests that most people (over 16) have their playstation moded. Sure the sample isn't truly random, but its random enough :]. Take a statistics class. Besides its quite amusing how you side-stepped the real issue.
Is the price reasonable? I'll take four!
It sounds to me that the best use, and probably the most common use for this technology would be to let multimedia and DVD authors to test out their latest creation relatively cheap. Last time I checked, commercial DVD writers were 20-50x more expensive than this unit. For corporations or companies that want to enter the DVD arena, either by sending out DVDs to customers to inform them of new products (AOL CDs?) or to distribute software this way (Microsoft is going to start doing this), this seems like an extremely cheap way to do this without having to purchase a full commercial DVD writer. And once you have the master (gone gold) then you can send it out to a DVD publisher and get your discs pressed for much cheaper than $30/disc.
HiVal has had a recordable DVD out for a while already and it was for $700. I think I saw ir once in PC connection or onr of those catalogs. ------- a man shows his true self when he is, drunk, angry, or broke.
If anyone is panicked in the film industry, it is only the shock of entrenched power forced on the move by new technology. If the MPAA plays its cards correctly, the film industry could easily emerge with a dominance in this new field and higher revenues than ever before.
Consider that we already have this fundamental technology (albeit in a cruder form) with VCR, but the majority of film viewers are completely incapacitated by a simple red and white FBI warning pasted at the header of each tape. That flimsy exercise of authority is enough to keep the common consumer in check.
In my observation, the deciding factor in "consumer revolutions" is not the desire for independence, but the allure of convenience. There are many people, yes, who are thrilled by the notion of endlessly copied, personally owned videos. But I suspect that sector is small when viewed relative to the mass of moviegoers, who are happy parting with small sums of movie for the simple convenience of being provided the film as a service rather than as a commodity. And on those rare occasions they desire it as a commodity, $20 and a five minute drive don't seem to great a cost to spare.
If the average buyer of movies has ample and convenient supply of pre-recorded DVDs from their local rental store, on a par with the availability of VCR tapes today, why would they desire to copy their own, and at a large initial expense at that, since I can't imagine these recording machines will be cheap.
The internet does have the potential to alter this status quo, through pirated rebroadcasts, but only in a distant future (let us say one decade) in which the typical internet-enabled household can boast broadband speeds.
This gives the film industry ten years to get their shit together and organize an official pay-per-view internet broadcasting plan. The convenience of visiting a well-known site will make the arcane knowledge of pirate sites seem like sweaty and unnecessary labor. The quick little FBI blurbs will be enough to remind the placid victims that viewing pirated versions is Wrong.
The film industry (and t he recording industry for that matter) provide their media as services, although they present them as commodities. So long as that remains the more convenient schema, I can't see a consumer insurgency as a realistic future.
-konstant
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
I suspect that a lot of motivation behind lawsuits against similar products has been the hope of litigating the company or group out of existence. Who cares about the outcome if the legal bills force a shutdown?
This is different. Pioneer isn't going to fold under a few legal fees. What else might the film industry try? No more DVD decryption keys for Pioneer?
Greg
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
How much have recordable videotapes hurt the home video industry? None! How much have VCRs hurt the movie industry? None! How much have CD-Rs hurt the music industry? None again!
Recordable DVDs are the same way. In their typical short-sighted way, the industry will harp on about "The death of the home-DVD market" for a year, and then proceed to be shocked when their profits actually go up the same as always. I'm not sure what's worse--that they're constantly making more money from worse entertainment, that they're behaving like undisciplined bullies (to both the consumers and especially to the indies!), or that they're so clueless as to be surprised every time their industry fails to collapse because the consumer got something good.
The parallel with yesterday's story about the mall banning web-site promotion is left as an exercise for the reader.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
From the Pioneer site.
Esteem isn't a zero sum game
I recall that DVD technologies suffered delays from battles over standards, though I can't remember if this only applied to dvdrom recordables. Do Pioneer's recording method and disks fall under a standard? Have agreements been made on the issue, or was this never a problem concerning video dvds?
Based on the stuff I read on video usenet groups over the years I had thought there would never be a writable DVD. I thought that the computing power needed to do the compression on the fly would not be achievable for years. I guess the people who said that were flat out wrong?
Strange syntax. I had to read the article again to make sure that these things do record. Is this a translation problem or are they trying to obfuscate?
Doesn't anyone here recall what the recording industry was able to do to DAT technology? The film industry has been paranoid of recording technologies for a long time, and will do the same to DVD. VHS poses little threat, as the quality is so poor. DVD, on the other hand, has the potential (if the encoding is good) to provide a much cleaner signal for both sound and picture.
I anticipate that the film industry will crank up the lobbyists, and that our politicians, ever vigilant for the highest bidder, will do something to damage the value of this technology, as they did with DAT.
I can appreciate that the film industry has IP rights to protect, but when the protection of such rights is used to justify legislating against someone else's IP rights (as was effectively the case with DAT and the notch filter), then justice is not a component of the action, and we should all scream long and loud to our various pols in the hope that sanity may prevail this time.
History, however, offers little hope.
--- Bill
not only that but blank VCR tapes used to cost $30 a piece, of course that was when beta was still around.
Slashdot is seriously degenerating into a juarez kiddies paradise! I know most of the crowd here is atheist, BUT DOESN'T ANYONE STLL HAVE ANY MORALS OR ETHICS? ANY INTEGRITY? They should be worried and you all know damn well why they should, at least if you are the nerds (or juarez pups) you claim to be. IF you have qualms with their idea of property, CONVINCE THEM OF IT INTELECTUALLY, dont STRONG ARM THEM INTO YOUR METHOD OF SEEING. You really are no better than they are then. The one reason I use to come to /. was because the comments actually use to be INSIGHTFUL. However recently the comments have become so full of ignorance and arrogance, that they are completely worthless. This fact is only magnified by moderators who also moderate up arrogant and ignorant comments.
Blank CD-R's (not CD-RW's) were $10 each in 1997 - you don't have to look back as far as 1991. Then you could find them for $5 if you were lucky. Then there was the period of rebates, where you got back most of the purchase price - almost every manufacturer offered them. Now they are just $1-$1.50 a disc. The RIAA is the one that should be scared - 12-15 albums worth of mp3's fit on a $1 disc.
- A.P. (How did abortion get dragged into this?)
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
1. A working, accurate link:
http://www.pioneer.co.jp/press/release63.html
(it's in english)
2. Quote #1:
"Introduction of Copy Protection Technology
The DVR-1000 complies with all available copy protection technologies {e.g. response to CGMS (Copy Generation Management System) signal and detection of Macrovision signal}, to protect copyrighted visual content from unauthorized copying which contradicts the intention of copyright owners. Furthermore, the DVR-1000 implements secure media ID detection functions, which form a key element in disabling playback of discs containing unauthorized copies. DVD-RW blank discs also contain the technology to prevent successful copying of discs protected by CSS*"
3. Quote #2.
Recording Time
Standard mode(SP) 120 minutes
Manual mode (MN) 60 ` 360 minutes (32 steps)
4. Quote #3.
" At the same time, Pioneer will ask the member companies of the DVD Forum to adopt Pioneer's technology as the de facto standard for DVD recorders."
So it isn't a standard, and may not be a standard ever.
5. Quote #4.
"DVD-RW adopts the Video Recording Format method for recording, a specification authorized by the DVD Forum. This format allows high-quality real-time signal recording using MPEG compression technology and also provides a variety of editing functions.
Furthermore, Pioneer, as well as other major hardware manufacturers, will introduce Video Recording Format-ready DVD-Video players, and it will be possible to replay DVD-RW recorded discs on those players too.
"
So you won't be able to play the disc on many of the current players. But it does do realtime encoding.
Nothing particularly scary to any media company. Of course, my illusions of corporate competition among the 'big' corporations was shattered when I opened up my 101 disc Pioneer changer and found-- Sony components.
--I hate people when they're not polite -"Psycho Killer", Talking Heads
darn.
Esteem isn't a zero sum game
They have had such a device for some time now,
only the price was around $5k last I checked a
few months ago.
And that didn't include the computer hardware
and software required to master it before putting
it to disk.
Self improvement is masturbation
The bottom line? DVD-R Media will get cheaper. CDR media did. Zip media did. Remember not so long ago when CDRW media was $25-30 per disk. Now it's fallen below $3.00/disc. Why should I not expect the same thing to happen with DVD-Rs?
Unless you're some kind of an Überhacker, you don't need a DVD-RW to hold six hours of programming. Clueless journalists!
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
try
winvcr.com
cyberlink.co.tw
duck.com
According to the specs, this DVD-RAM drive doesn't even have a digital out. That sucks, even my CDROM drive has this useful feature.
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial_oem/computer/s torage/dvd-ram/prods/drivers.htm
Goodie, I can't wait to get one -- but will it let me Zonecode my recordings so that I can control my roll-out ;-)
Is it just me, or does anyone see any parallels to the Prohibition in the DeCSS situation?
.zip's spread like wildfire anyway. (I mean, who here on /. DOESN'T have one?) And when the price goes down on the Pioneer device and the media, you can bet the movie industry will probably be in somewhat a snit.
I know it's a bit of a stretch, but bear with me here in the general idea...it's really one of the only examples I can think of.
Now, I'm pretty sketchy on this, but IIRC, liquor was made illegal during the Prohibition. Did it end all drinking? No...instead you had lots of people forming undergrounds, gangs, etc, and crime just escalated because of it. When the bans were lifted, did we become a nation of drunks? No. Sure, there was still drunk driving, etc, but the pros outweighed the cons.
By making all form of copying, decrypting, etc, DVDs illegal, what will we have? Likely a lot of people breaking those laws just because they're pointless. Take the DeCSS situation--the guy took the source down because of all the flak he was getting, but the tarballs and
Look at VHS. It's easy to record, sometimes insanely easy to copy. Is the movie industry suffering because of them? No. Sure, the FBI flashes a dire warning at the beginning of each movie, but how many of us here don't have a video copied somehow? (Uh, I don't. Not me. No.)
I guess my point is, when people are free to use media as they wish, and the big industries are left to grit their teeth a bit, things work better.
Just my $.02.
Angry IT woman in big clompy boots. And talking lint!.
Read the article.. it's not that long, really. (less than one page.)
The article calls this a "VIDEO MACHINE"
That's not generally something that you would need a computer card or software for. It sounds more like something you would put next to (be a replacement for) your VCR.
I'd love to have a VCR-like device conected to my TV as well as my computer. I could record, erase, rename, copy movies just like any other file presently on my computer. With a continuous connection to the internet, I could program the "VCR" from work or where ever I happen to be (especially with a PDA with internet access).
Could someone comment on this?
Check out AbiWord.