Since a company may spy on it's employees, there is a legit market for these items. (whether we agree, or know, or not). I used to do systems work for a company that sold and installed pin-hole camera's and other security devices (including monitoring services), so I've seen what these devices can be legitimately used for (ie busting employees dealing drugs in the break room)
A bullet-"proof" vest can protect cops or robbers.
Guns can protect granny from muggers or help muggers get granny.
A 2-liter bottle can hold your drink, or be used as a silencer.
"Moth crystals" can keep your sweaters hole-free, or be compounded into an explosive.
Even common aspirin can be used as a key component in a well known primary explosive used to make blasting caps.
Some things should be illegal to produce and sell. Other things have as many or more legitimate uses in which case the act, or provable intent/conspiracy, of illegal use must be proven.
Legal property does not commit crimes. Persecuting property (Life, Liberty and the persuit of Property?) is an illicit way for the Fed and other agencies to supplement their income and terrorize the "sheep" under their protection. It is also used as a means to gauge an agencies "effectiveness" when its time for a budget review.
I find all of this quite ironic considering the current flap over 5 US International Airports have deployed scanners that can see through the clothing of passangers. And the way the legislation which allows these devices to be legally used was quietly passed while the attention of the public was focused in another low key gov't scandal.
If the people of the US were to be governed by the same rules that the gov't imposes on itself, it'd be anarchy.
The first such Supreme Court ruling was in the case, Ware vs. Hylton in 1796 (1). The taking of Hylton's property to fulfill a treaty with Great Britain, in violation of the "due process" clause of the Fifth Amendment was upheld.
In a more recent case, Missouri vs. Holland (2), the Supreme Court decided in 1920 that powers reserved to the States by the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution could be given to the national government by treaty.
In 1942, the doctrine that treaties supersede or over-ride the Constitution was extended to apply to executive agreements negotiated by the President, or in the name of the President by members of the bureaucracy. In this case, United States vs. Pink (3), the Court held that a personal agreement between President Roosevelt and the Russian Foreign Minister, Litvinov, nullified provisions of the lasws of New York state, and of the American Constitution, which forbid confiscation of private property.
Footnotes:
1: 3 Dall 199, as quoted, MacBride, Treaties vs the Constitution, pg 41 2: 252 US 416 (1920) 3: 315 US 203 (1942)
Umm... I have. I teethed on Slack and still use it daily. I don't mind screwy personally, I enjoy the challenge. And you are correct that Slack's install isn't screwy to most of us. But I still wouldn't hand a copy to a newbie. I tend to hand out Mandrake and Corel CDs when the occasion arises.
And I personally don't care for these X installs.. Yuk....
Obviously you have never been in business for yourself.
So now a one-man operation cannot exist if he doesn't have the balls to stand up to the FBI??
That IS horseshit. Let one of the US's more Rogue agencies show up on your doorstep and threaten your livelihood and see if that horseshit isn't in YOUR drawers.
Swap in filespace?? Yuk! But I guess 386s don't tend to have big hard drives....
But seriously. Red Hat has brought a lot of new people to use Linux that simply wouldn't understand the screwy Debian or Slack install program, let alone know where to get it. Once they know what Linux is and does (learned on Red Hat) they'll likely move to something else like the Debian or Slack or SuSE. And if they don't switch? Who cares. We've another convert.... Isn't that the point?
I took Rob's meaning to be that because he owns stock, he was concerned. Not that he was trying to boost the value. Besides, with posts like these, it'd have the reverse effect on outsiders peaking in on the commentary.
I don't honestly care if the Suite goes open source, though it'd be nice. I just want it to work.
But wouldn't it be poetic justice to use $$ from the sale of the Windows version to fund the opensource or atleast free, Linux version? What a way to drive people to Linux (from Windows) and to RH's support phone lines (instead of MS's).
It is still a Windows desktop world, so why shouldn't they capitalize on it to the benefit Linux developemnt? And if the sales of Windows software will help fund development and/or make RH profitable, I think its a good move. And there are several Linux developed packages that will now run on Windows NT. No matter your views on NT, it is a virtually untapped market. RH would make a good single point of contact to represent this to the corporate world simply because they DO have their foot in the door as few others do at this time.
If RH doesn't move sharp, they'll fall on their face. They should use their market capitalization to full advantage while they can. Wall Street honeymoons are starting to sync on Internet time....
We must also consider the PR fallout that Linux and the Linux community would get if Red Hat does fail. It would not leave a good impression on Wall Street or on the Corporations that are considering Linux solutions.
If Linux is going to make a go of enticing the corporate world, someone has to think like the corporate world. Something I'm not sure the community is ready for, and something that will make or break Linux's success in the arena.
I think RH is doing the best they can in uncharted waters. We should give them the benefit of the doubt.
With the sums we're already sending to Communist countries, and likewise technology, cutting anyone off at this stage of the game would like closing the bard door after the horse got out.
If Israel hadn't done it with our tacit approval, then the current (US)administration would have found another way just like they have with missle guidance technology, ball bearing manufacturing, super computers, et al. It'd be like shooting the messenger.
Ah, but the Russians only evolved as a friendly after Hitler broke their Treaty. Remember that Russia/USSR helped Hitler take Poland...
The outcome could have been mighty different if Hitler had abided by his Treaty and thus only had to wage war on their wester front with their backsides secured by the alliance.
Throw in that they were trying to retire what was likely the best ground attack aircraft ever built, the Warthog A-10. Nothing like flying by the seat of your pants when you're sitting in a titanium bucket!
And anyone thats been around knows that the Apache's are a joke even if they are cool technologically.
The A-10s at our areas air reserve bases were replaced with F16's. Much more fragile and difficult to maintain. Terrible TOT (time on target). And a stall speed that is higher than the cruising speed of the A-10.
Thankfully, the Gulf "training" revived the interest in this craft to a great degree even if they are still bitching about the Uranium slugs.
Pointing to yet another major problem. The "lifers" are dropping out like flies. Except for sometime around 1790, I doubt our forces have been so young, green and ill trained.
The attitude of the current administration and the "political correct" Bravo Sierra that has been forced upon the services in the name of social engineering has taken a huge toll in non-coms and real officers (but not the brass kissing, career building, type that are worthless on a battle field - unfortunately the current environment is great for them - yuk!)
And the fact that moral decay, political corruption, bread-and-circus, et al had taken such a toll that no one really gave a rats ass. Sounds familiar...
That may be how it's supposed to be. But we've been legislated out of our miliary type arms, the only arms actually protected by the 2nd Amendment according to the US Supreme Court ruling. (US vs Smith: short barreled shotguns are not protected under the Constitution in that the defendant did not show evidence that such a weapon is of significance as a military weapon)
Don't forget that Kennedy signed a disarmament treaty that includes the disarmament of the civilian population. Treaties carry the force of law. They're just trying to do it quitely since they'd had a major revolution on their hands if they'd tried it in the 60's.
And the National Guard troops are effectively under Fed control. (Army-National Guard?) Which has been demonstrated to be all but a UN puppet anyway.
Plus, the Chinese, via a Gov't owned shipping company, has leased a (former) military port in Long Beach, California. They could conceivably hide a lot of troops and/or logistical support that way considering they don't have to clear with US Customs until their shipments actually leave their port area. Not likely, but something to think about.
In the meantime, praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
I must have missed the health care section of the Constitution.
Our current troops are over committed, ill trained, and ill-equipped. What I said about aircraft parts is true enough, and I've likely understated the situation.
True about terrorism. Of course I don't agree with the way our Military is/has been/ used, either. I would not even say that we use it to enforce our/the peoples/ "interests" but more the "agenda" of (UN sympathetic / NWO) administrations.
Along that vein, the US has done more to secure the foothold of Communism in this century than Stalin. We've opposed anti-communisism as an ideal. We've sent huge amounts of money to countries that don't have our good will at heart. We've proped up inhumane gov'ts. And where we didn't outright support the "agririan reformers" we thwarted their adversaries or treated them so badly the Communists looked like heros.
Terrorism is a tricky issue. It is difficult to implement the steps needed to interdict terrorist activity without trampling the Constitution under jack-boots. At the same time, the US has sponsored its fair share of "terrorist" type black ops. There is a vengeful desire in some parts of the world that isn't entirely unjustified.
As for China, I don't forsee a full invasion. But they have entangled their tentacles way too far into the US. While we toute civil rights here, we're one of the largest (if not the largest) consumer of Chinese goods. We lease them our ports (displacing US Marines), we let them land the management leases of the locks at each end of the Panama Canal. Let them (illegally) contribute to our political processes... What's that saying about not buying the cow when you can get the milk for free?
And, accourding to the US Constitution, ratified treaties have force of law over even the Constitution. Therefore, when GATT and NAFTA were ratified by the US, the US has agreed that it is the supreme law. We're screwed....
Artical VI Section 2
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Technology that can be used against ones own country isn't cool. At the same time, technology cannot solely fight the war (or police action). The US relies too much on the technological marvels of warfare that they have created and in the meantime have cut troop numbers, falling readiness states and poor training of what troops there are. We won't even go into moral issues...
It won't matter if they can detect the planes, anyway. They're scavenging good aircraft just to get spare parts now... there may not be many good aircraft for the next engagement.
Maybe they don't want daddy suing them after little jonny downloads and installs Corel Linux on daddy's home-office computer, and wiping out all of last years financial information in the process.
Na...
Like most commercial companies, they likely stick this thing on everything they put out. Their legal team probably has it tattooed on their arses...
To follow your Free Speach analogy, you're saying that if I pay a printer to print my manuscript, if the FBI doesn't like it, they can ask the printer not to give me my print order?
I don't think so. Not without a warrant or court order.
Granted, the printer may choose to refuse your business. But if he's not careful about how he does it, or states a (politically incorrect) reason for refusing, he may well have a civil suit on his hands. Or the ACLU picketting his store front and/or filing the suit themselves.
Which makes me wonder, the ACLU hasn't been real swift to take up these issues, I've noticed. But, gee, throw a dangerous punk out of school.....
Until (more) specific laws are passed to differenciate, a lot of the case precedents we've seen so far on 'net related legal issues have followed similar precedents to print or broadcast media.
Depends greatly on the state you reside / rent in.
How many years ago did the NRA call Federal Authorities "Jack-booted thugs" only to catch hell over it? Seems no one pays attention until they trample something close to home....
Of course it'd saved us all eye strain if the FBI had bust in at NBC and pulled that FUD Y2K movie they played last Sunday!
The program has never handled numerous frame very well. Even 7 and 8 under Winbloz, which were vast improvements over the early "DOS in a Window" versions 6.0, 6.0a and 6.1.
Version 8 for Linux is ok,but as others have pointed out, they really do not understand the *nix way of doing things. And this product is likely to be only marginally successful until they do.
This brings up the point that if, as I've seen stated here in serveral comments, people are willingly rebooting to Winbloz to play games, why should the game publishers go the to effort of appeasing the few die-hards that won't??
How many here will run to the store and purchase a copy of this, and reboot and/or create a Winbloz partition? If you do, then you have validated Blizzard's, and many others, actions in not giving Linux (and other alternatives for that matter) the recognition we all desire.
I guess one has to decide which is more important.
We smuggled in our 15 year old tech last time we went to the Chicago show. No one even asked. And he looked 12. Of course he was flanked by 2 30-somethings and wearing a "Channel Professional" badge, too.
This will be the first Vegas show I've missed in the last 3. I'll sit in my hotel room and cry in my Michelob over missing Linus' keynote... and watch for Transmeta's new site on my laptop....
Slashdot Mirror
Since a company may spy on it's employees, there is a legit market for these items. (whether we agree, or know, or not). I used to do systems work for a company that sold and installed pin-hole camera's and other security devices (including monitoring services), so I've seen what these devices can be legitimately used for (ie busting employees dealing drugs in the break room)
A bullet-"proof" vest can protect cops or robbers.
Guns can protect granny from muggers or help muggers get granny.
A 2-liter bottle can hold your drink, or be used
as a silencer.
"Moth crystals" can keep your sweaters hole-free, or be compounded into an explosive.
Even common aspirin can be used as a key component
in a well known primary explosive used to make blasting caps.
Some things should be illegal to produce and sell. Other things have as many or more legitimate uses in which case the act, or provable intent/conspiracy, of illegal use must be proven.
Legal property does not commit crimes. Persecuting property (Life, Liberty and the persuit of Property?) is an illicit way for the Fed and other agencies to supplement their income and terrorize the "sheep" under their protection. It is also used as a means to gauge an agencies "effectiveness" when its time for a budget review.
I find all of this quite ironic considering the current flap over 5 US International Airports have deployed scanners that can see through the clothing of passangers. And the way the legislation which allows these devices to be legally used was quietly passed while the attention of the public was focused in another low key gov't scandal.
If the people of the US were to be governed by the same rules that the gov't imposes on itself, it'd be anarchy.
For those asking for references on this:
The first such Supreme Court ruling was in the case, Ware vs. Hylton in 1796 (1). The taking of Hylton's property to fulfill a treaty with Great
Britain, in violation of the "due process" clause of the Fifth Amendment was upheld.
In a more recent case, Missouri vs. Holland (2), the Supreme Court decided in 1920 that powers reserved to the States by the Tenth Amendment to the
Constitution could be given to the national government by treaty.
In 1942, the doctrine that treaties supersede or over-ride the Constitution was extended to apply to executive agreements negotiated by the President,
or in the name of the President by members of the bureaucracy. In this case, United States vs. Pink (3), the Court held that a personal agreement
between President Roosevelt and the Russian Foreign Minister, Litvinov, nullified provisions of the lasws of New York state, and of the American
Constitution, which forbid confiscation of private property.
Footnotes:
1: 3 Dall 199, as quoted, MacBride, Treaties vs the Constitution, pg 41
2: 252 US 416 (1920)
3: 315 US 203 (1942)
My poorly put point exactly. The Supreme Court seems to think otherwise, though, and has ruled otherwise. Of course they're dumbasses, too.
Umm... I have. I teethed on Slack and still use it daily. I don't mind screwy personally, I enjoy the challenge. And you are correct that Slack's install isn't screwy to most of us. But I still wouldn't hand a copy to a newbie. I tend to hand out Mandrake and Corel CDs when the occasion arises.
And I personally don't care for these X installs.. Yuk....
Obviously you have never been in business for yourself.
So now a one-man operation cannot exist if he doesn't have the balls to stand up to the FBI??
That IS horseshit. Let one of the US's more Rogue agencies show up on your doorstep and threaten your livelihood and see if that horseshit isn't in YOUR drawers.
Swap in filespace?? Yuk! But I guess 386s don't tend to have big hard drives....
But seriously. Red Hat has brought a lot of new people to use Linux that simply wouldn't understand the screwy Debian or Slack install program, let alone know where to get it. Once they know what Linux is and does (learned on Red Hat) they'll likely move to something else like the Debian or Slack or SuSE. And if they don't switch? Who cares. We've another convert.... Isn't that the point?
I took Rob's meaning to be that because he owns stock, he was concerned. Not that he was trying to boost the value. Besides, with posts like these, it'd have the reverse effect on outsiders peaking in on the commentary.
I don't honestly care if the Suite goes open source, though it'd be nice. I just want it to work.
But wouldn't it be poetic justice to use $$ from the sale of the Windows version to fund the opensource or atleast free, Linux version? What a way to drive people to Linux (from Windows) and to RH's support phone lines (instead of MS's).
It is still a Windows desktop world, so why shouldn't they capitalize on it to the benefit
Linux developemnt? And if the sales of Windows software will help fund development and/or make RH profitable, I think its a good move. And there are several Linux developed packages that will now run on Windows NT. No matter your views on NT, it is a virtually untapped market. RH would make a good single point of contact to represent this to the corporate world simply because they DO have their foot in the door as few others do at this time.
If RH doesn't move sharp, they'll fall on their face. They should use their market capitalization to full advantage while they can. Wall Street honeymoons are starting to sync on Internet time....
We must also consider the PR fallout that Linux and the Linux community would get if Red Hat does fail. It would not leave a good impression on Wall Street or on the Corporations that are considering Linux solutions.
If Linux is going to make a go of enticing the corporate world, someone has to think like the corporate world. Something I'm not sure the community is ready for, and something that will make or break Linux's success in the arena.
I think RH is doing the best they can in uncharted waters. We should give them the benefit of the doubt.
With the sums we're already sending to Communist countries, and likewise technology, cutting anyone off at this stage of the game would like closing the bard door after the horse got out.
If Israel hadn't done it with our tacit approval, then the current (US)administration would have found another way just like they have with missle guidance technology, ball bearing manufacturing, super computers, et al. It'd be like shooting the messenger.
Ah, but the Russians only evolved as a friendly after Hitler broke their Treaty. Remember that Russia/USSR helped Hitler take Poland...
The outcome could have been mighty different if Hitler had abided by his Treaty and thus only had to wage war on their wester front with their backsides secured by the alliance.
Throw in that they were trying to retire what was likely the best ground attack aircraft ever built, the Warthog A-10. Nothing like flying by the seat of your pants when you're sitting in a titanium bucket!
And anyone thats been around knows that the Apache's are a joke even if they are cool technologically.
The A-10s at our areas air reserve bases were replaced with F16's. Much more fragile and difficult to maintain. Terrible TOT (time on target). And a stall speed that is higher than the cruising speed of the A-10.
Thankfully, the Gulf "training" revived the interest in this craft to a great degree even if they are still bitching about the Uranium slugs.
Pointing to yet another major problem. The "lifers" are dropping out like flies. Except for sometime around 1790, I doubt our forces have been so young, green and ill trained.
The attitude of the current administration and the "political correct" Bravo Sierra that has been forced upon the services in the name of social engineering has taken a huge toll in non-coms and real officers (but not the brass kissing, career building, type that are worthless on a battle field - unfortunately the current environment is great for them - yuk!)
And the fact that moral decay, political corruption, bread-and-circus, et al
had taken such a toll that no one really gave a rats ass. Sounds familiar...
That may be how it's supposed to be. But we've been legislated out of our miliary type arms, the only arms actually protected by the 2nd Amendment according to the US Supreme Court ruling. (US vs Smith: short barreled shotguns are not protected under the Constitution in that the defendant did not show evidence that such a weapon is of significance as a military weapon)
Don't forget that Kennedy signed a disarmament treaty that includes the disarmament of the civilian population. Treaties carry the force of law. They're just trying to do it quitely since they'd had a major revolution on their hands if they'd tried it in the 60's.
And the National Guard troops are effectively under Fed control. (Army-National Guard?) Which has been demonstrated to be all but a UN puppet anyway.
Plus, the Chinese, via a Gov't owned shipping company, has leased a (former) military port in Long Beach, California. They could conceivably hide a lot of troops and/or logistical support that way considering they don't have to clear with US Customs until their shipments actually leave their port area. Not likely, but something to think about.
In the meantime, praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
I must have missed the health care section of the Constitution.
/has been/ used, either. I would not even say that we use it to enforce our /the peoples/ "interests" but more the "agenda" of (UN sympathetic / NWO) administrations.
Our current troops are over committed, ill trained, and ill-equipped. What I said about aircraft parts is true enough, and I've likely understated the situation.
True about terrorism. Of course I don't agree with the way our Military is
Along that vein, the US has done more to secure the foothold of Communism in this century than Stalin. We've opposed anti-communisism as an ideal. We've sent huge amounts of money to countries that don't have our good will at heart. We've proped up inhumane gov'ts. And where we didn't outright support the "agririan reformers" we thwarted their adversaries or treated them so badly the Communists looked like heros.
Terrorism is a tricky issue. It is difficult to implement the steps needed to interdict terrorist activity without trampling the Constitution under jack-boots. At the same time, the US has sponsored its fair share of "terrorist" type black ops. There is a vengeful desire in some parts of the world that isn't entirely unjustified.
As for China, I don't forsee a full invasion. But they have entangled their tentacles way too far into the US. While we toute civil rights here, we're one of the largest (if not the largest) consumer of Chinese goods. We lease them our ports (displacing US Marines), we let them land the management leases of the locks at each end of the Panama Canal. Let them (illegally) contribute to our political processes... What's that saying about not buying the cow when you can get the milk for free?
And, accourding to the US Constitution, ratified treaties have force of law over even the Constitution. Therefore, when GATT and NAFTA were ratified by the US, the US has agreed that it is the supreme law. We're screwed....
Artical VI Section 2
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Technology that can be used against ones own country isn't cool. At the same time, technology cannot solely fight the war (or police action). The US relies too much on the technological marvels of warfare that they have created and in the meantime have cut troop numbers, falling readiness states and poor training of what troops there are. We won't even go into moral issues...
It won't matter if they can detect the planes, anyway. They're scavenging good aircraft just to get spare parts now... there may not be many good aircraft for the next engagement.
Maybe they don't want daddy suing them after little jonny downloads and installs Corel Linux on
daddy's home-office computer, and wiping out all of last years financial information in the process.
Na...
Like most commercial companies, they likely stick this thing on everything they put out. Their legal team probably has it tattooed on their arses...
To follow your Free Speach analogy, you're saying that if I pay a printer to print my manuscript, if the FBI doesn't like it, they can ask the printer not to give me my print order?
.....
I don't think so. Not without a warrant or court order.
Granted, the printer may choose to refuse your business. But if he's not careful about how he does it, or states a (politically incorrect) reason for refusing, he may well have a civil suit on his hands. Or the ACLU picketting his store front and/or filing the suit themselves.
Which makes me wonder, the ACLU hasn't been real swift to take up these issues, I've noticed. But, gee, throw a dangerous punk out of school
Until (more) specific laws are passed to differenciate, a lot of the case precedents we've seen so far on 'net related legal issues have followed similar precedents to print or broadcast media.
Depends greatly on the state you reside / rent in.
How many years ago did the NRA call Federal Authorities "Jack-booted thugs" only to catch
hell over it? Seems no one pays attention until
they trample something close to home....
Of course it'd saved us all eye strain if the FBI had bust in at NBC and pulled that FUD Y2K movie they played last Sunday!
Of course you can judge what database server a site is using when the site hangs on the first click on a link.
/. either.
I'm waiting for M$ to start blaming Linux for their SQL 7 problems in their debug dumps, too.
Apparently Corel don't read their own press, or they'd be running Linux Netwinder Server. Oh yea, they sold that....
btw, after I spent 3 hrs answering the questions, my form went in with minimal fuss. But then again, my _REFERER_ didn't say
The program has never handled numerous frame very well. Even 7 and 8 under Winbloz, which were vast improvements over the early "DOS in a Window" versions 6.0, 6.0a and 6.1.
Version 8 for Linux is ok,but as others have pointed out, they really do not understand the *nix way of doing things. And this product is likely to be only marginally successful until they do.
This brings up the point that if, as I've seen stated here in serveral comments, people are willingly rebooting to Winbloz to play games, why should the game publishers go the to effort of appeasing the few die-hards that won't??
How many here will run to the store and purchase a copy of this, and reboot and/or create a Winbloz partition? If you do, then you have validated Blizzard's, and many others, actions in not giving Linux (and other alternatives for that matter) the recognition we all desire.
I guess one has to decide which is more important.
We smuggled in our 15 year old tech last time we went to the Chicago show. No one even asked. And he looked 12. Of course he was flanked by 2 30-somethings and wearing a "Channel Professional" badge, too.
This will be the first Vegas show I've missed in the last 3. I'll sit in my hotel room and cry in my Michelob over missing Linus' keynote... and watch for Transmeta's new site on my laptop....