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Detecting Stealth Planes
Zurk writes " Newsweek said China's new Passive Coherent Location (PCL) system
tracked the signals of civilian radio and television broadcasts and picked up aircraft by analysing the minute turbulence their flight caused in the commercial wavelengths. cool huh ? " They hope to use it to detect the F-117A and potentially the F-22. Very cool use of technology to fix a problem.
now they'll have to go back to building wooden planes ....
But, America can't start pointless wars without having a tremendously unfair technological advantage! This ain't right! Oh and if you think this will piss the Pentagon off, it won't. Those guys are in the business of constantly building new weapons of war. This and things like this will only strengthen their case to allocate more funds for defense.
This technology appears to be picking up planes by looking at the turbulence that they leave behind.
Why can't a series of unmanned rockets leaving turbulence all around jam this?
Another issue: if you are following the trail, how good is your fix on its current location? If it was in straight-line flight, OK. But if it was in defensive maneuvers?
Hmmm...how well does it work in different weather conditions?
There are a lot of questions here. Sure it is a cute step, but this is not the final solution and the race will continue.
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
Considering a lot of people consider stealth technology to be nothing but propaganda this could mean very little. The F117a is only undectectable when flying slowly at altitudes of less than 100m. True it has a smaller radar signature than other planes, but it still has one and that is what matters. If the plane flies below the radar though (100m) no amount of stealth technology will help or hinder it. The USAF just has a funny looking plane so that it can tell you the boys will be safe when they go to bomb some serbian villagers.
J-aims
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Anything that receives a radio signal decreases the signals strength ever so slightly around the area it was received in. How about a radio receiver detector and radio receiver detector detectors, ad infinitum.
Hmmm... If it is possible to do this with only commercial broadcasts, does it mean that this technology might be within the reach of hobbyists?
Anyone know if this requires extremely sensitive and expensive antennas? Or is the hard problem really one of extracting the "signal" from the noise. It seems to be the latter on the face of it. The idea seems to be to study the patterns in what would ordinarily be considered noise to localize atmospheric disturbances.
Could we really have a GNUAircraftTracker running a-la SETI@Home?
Of course you can detect a stealth plane. You can detect a stealth anything. It exists, therefore it interferes.
;)
I believe it's the Typhoon class submarines you can detect by listening for silence in the waters. The submarine is so ``stealthy'' that it's more silent than the water that surrounds it. Blammo!
I would have thought that satellites would have been the first to be used to track stealth aircraft. If you track how the earth reflects a radio signal (radar), and then suddenly something breaks the usual reflection (a stealth plane will break the reflection, but it will not reflect much back itself) you know where to aim.
Isn't it just fantastic what can be done with technology today
While this may be a cool technology, the fact that the Chinese are doing it is not cool at all. Think back to the cold war. Every time we came up with a new technology, the commies figured out how to circumvent it. Even if they couldn't invent an airplane to dogfight with a U2, they'd sure as hell fly a bunch of migs underneath it to block its camera's view of the ground. China, now the largest (iirc) communist nation, has launched space missions, is working hard on nuclear warfare, and can now possibly detect stealth technology. Another cold war? This is scary.
It will now become close to impossible to defend Taiwan, South Korea, Kuwait, and Kosovo in the manner we are used to.
Joy.
well.. if they fly low enough, you could just hire some low paid marine to point and say, "Hey! There's a plane!"
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ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
If the Chinese plan to track stealth planes by looking at radio and televesion waves, couldn't the U.S. purposely alter those signals to make it appear as though there were stealh bombers all over the place?
Or perhpas, could the U.S. put a transmitter in orbit and flood the air waves over China with bogus signals that have bogus torbulences that show bogus stealths.
It seem that this type of technology would be easy to counteract.
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Next thing is as soon as it opens its, insert the right word here, flaps to actually let off a bomb. Just the best moment to detect it with out of the box technology - *plonk* - game over.
I have to admit though it is a good looking plane - a real designer weapon - nice, expensive, useless.
I remeber a couple of years back, while they were saying that the B2 was untrackable, as they were showing it off at a British airshow (farnborough i think) British rockeye missiles managed to track it. Useful if we ever go to war against the americans. Just goes to show, that the technology is never as good as they claim.
But the US thought of that. That's why they had a nuclear anti-air defence system on Thule. Just blow the sky away, and the planes will fall down with it ;)
This is almost funny !
This sounds like a bunch of China-Parnoia to me.
I've been seeing alot of China fears coming from the press of late.
For one thing, just becase someone has a new technology there is no telling how long it will be until it works. Look at the B-1B and it's advanced defensive/Offensive electronic packages...are they operational yet? I don't think they ever reached the promised level of operation.
Saying this new technology might work against the F-22 is simply conjecture. The F-22, when operational in FY-03 will be 14 years newer than the newest F-117A. Plus the F-22 does not rely just on stealth like the F-117 does. The F-22 has an extremly robust powerplant and radar system. The F-22 can cruse about 10,000 feet higher than the F-15, at a higher speed making it much harder for SAMs to intercept the aircraft.
I remember reading something similar a few years ago. Back then (this was a few years stealth planes first made their mark on the battle fields in Irak) the Australians had developed a radar device that could track these planes by the turbulence they generated.
...
Turns out that the shapes these planes were built to, which gives them their low radar profile, was very bad aerodynamically (in the sense that it caused a lot more turbulence than traditional planes would) which in turn enabled this radar to locate the turbulence. Not sure what happened to this project since, but the idea of tracking stealth planes by the turbulence they cause, is nothing new
Curiosity question... whoever submitted the story basically copied the text directly from the web page. The story (at cnn.com) directly attributes Newsweek, but the words are from a Reuters story (copyright 1999, all rights reserved, no permission for redistribution). Since this is unattributed and more than just a summary, is this fair use?
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Ian Peters
Well, we've already found a couple of ways of finding the general location of a stealth fighter, wether it be by air turbulence or satellite radar. The information you get doesn't have to be precise enough to send a missile after it. Once you know where a fighter is roughly you can send up a noraml fighter/intercepter to tack it down. The F117a is notoriously hard to fly, the pilots call it the wobbly goblin on account of how shaky it is, also don't forget during the serbia thing one guy accidently crashed. That doesn't happen in a normal fighter, in an old-fashioned dogfight the stealth fighter would get murdered!
J-aims
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Just because a technology was developed by the Chinese does not mean it's bad. Have you ever considered that what was developed was a press release, or maybe a few well planted leaks? Both sides of the Cold War did this for years, and still do it. Using the media to plant seeds of doubt? Think Viet-Nam, Korea, Tokyo Rose in WW2. None of this is new.
Now if the Chi-Coms have invented and put into practice this technology, it only means we need to find a way to circumvent it. Say, by bombing TV and radio stations first.
Really folks, we have bigger problems to worry about. You know, the Chinese has the first compass. They kept it in a room and never used it until Marco Polo showed up with his. They pulled it out and said, so what?
Don't forget it was a Russian scientist who invented Stealth. He published a paper that inspired our development of the prototype.
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I saw a wierd vapor trail in the sky once through my telescope (while observing the sun). I removed the solar filters and observed the trail. It was a single trail with what looked like periodic rings around it. Like a string from an abacus made with skywriting. Rumors (all we have to go on) is that this is some kind of high speed, high altitude, military spy plane from the US. The plane operates by essentially firing off a periodic serpes of explosions to propel it (hence the ringed trail). Anyone know more about this?
Lockheed-Martin has a web page for their Silent Sentry system. Not much in the way of technical description but it can't be that secret if they put it on the web.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Yup, guess well just have to build some more shit. do i have quams about my tax dollars going towards this? nope. our "pointless wars" and expensive weapons are the reason why were the only remaining superpower. whining about it wont change things. hail the conquering heros.
1. The name "Woobly Goblin" was a joke from the first generation of flight control systems. This was back in the early 80s. It was picked up in Popular Science/Mechanics, in the article with the first offical photos of the 117. It is an inaccurate term.
2. Normal fighters do tend to crash on a regular basis, esp one engire fighters like the F-16 or A-7. Take a look at crashes of fighter types for every 100,000 hours and notice that single engine fighters crash about twice as much.
3. The single F-117A lost in Serbia was lost (pbly) to a SAM that locked on during the bomb run while the weapons bay was open and thus the aircraft was unstealthy. Or it was lost to a combination of SAM and airborne radar illumination coupled with optical sights. It was a full moon on the night the F-117 was lost.
For more on the F-117/F-22 go out and find World Air Power Volume 19 and 38.
I'm curious how exactly you think that China could invade the US with ground troops? Sure they've got billions of people in their army, but I don't see how they will wind up in the US. It would be exceedingly difficult to come anywhere near the US shore with any kind of sizable force.
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Other reports I saw for this said that it requires thousands of antennas most likely spread out over a very wide area (kinda like the VLA telescopes). Then after getting the signals from the antennas, the actual computations on the data are certainly far beyond the comprehension of even very serious hobbyists. It would take someone very well versed in radar and electromagnetic theory to even understand the algorithms. Creating the algorithms from scratch would be even harder.
Couldn't you just randomly add bursts of these commerical signals (but broadcast from all over the place) to basically add a lot of "noise" to the data. Sort of like /. at -1.
Does this mean they'll be able to detect me flying over China even when I'm wearing my composite spandex Robin outfit? Dammit! I new my sexy curves would be the end of me! Why couldn't I just be flat like Bob's Mom?
This device is passive, meaning it doesn't emit any RF to detect. Conventional radar emits microwave energy, and allows for countermeasures (by homing in on the radar source). This system, if my interpretation is correct, detects the plane based on civilian RF (e.g., FM, AM, etc.) noise. If this technology does not depend on single sources (e.g., large radio towers), but rather a multitude of smaller civilian emissions, it would be very hard for the US to squash, atleast not without causing a lot of collateral damage. That is a pretty big technological leap; not yet developed/implimented anywhere.
However, this development is not an end game by any means. I have little doubt that the US will come up with ways to circumvent it. What is really troublesome for the military, I suspect, is that it could probably be implimented by 3rd world countries which otherwise don't have the resources for such defense mechanisms.
...I personally feel that stealth is a bad way to play the game. Cheaper unmanned vehicles is far better....fly more, who cares if they shoot a few down....
Two words -- D-DAY
I think it's great.. You can bet that chinese
spy planes would be shot down if flown over the
U.S... well, it's nice to know that the converse
is true.. Personally, I got a good chuckle when
the USSR shot down a spy plane back in the 80s
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
Lockheed and another company are working on similar products. I believe they are competitors, and the other company took the low budget route, relying on the interference of civilian (AM? FM?) radio stations - a bunch of low tech antennas listening in on the disruptions ("shadows") as planes went around. This was in Aviation Leak several months ago, and I think even hit Slashdot.
Also, apparently the low tech low resolution long wavelength radars still in service by Russia and their customers, who can't afford the snazzy new short wavelength radars in use by NATO, are better at detecting stealth planes than those snazzy new radars. I gather the US tried to downplay this, out of embarrassment and cover-your-ass syndrome.
And another tack is mumble-mumble radar, where the transmitter and receiver are far apart. Stealth planes are stealthy not just from absorbing the radar energy, but also from directing radar energy away from the straight return path. Those non-normal directions get more than their share of the reflection -- put a transmitter ahead of the plane and separate receivers on the side, and the side receivers get a better return from the stealth plane than forward receivers get from a non-stealth plane. Or something like that.
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Infuriate left and right
The plane was lost very near the border, it wouldn't have had it's bay doors open. It was not lost due to being shot down, take your point on just falling out the sky- but it was either that or pilot error,. I also stand corrected on the nick
J-aims
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Of course it's within reach of hobbyists! If you're using an antenna (instead of cable) to receive TV, you've most likely seen the effect that is used. Whenever an aircraft flies near the line of sight between you and the TV transmitter you may experience dynamic multipath reception with characteristic fading of the signal (the picture pulses on/off at a changing rate). This can also happen with FM radio. If you were to characterize the amplitude, phase & frequency of every known transmitter in your area as received at your antenna, any disturbance in these parameters would indicate the presence of some type of reflector (cars, planes, etc.) Collect and correlate enough data and you could predict speed, location, etc. Not particularly practical for hobbyists, but well within the reach of most governments.
It's not picking up by the turbulence of the air molecules, since it's not the same kind of 'turbulence' that pilots refer to on the airplane.
This kind of turbulence refers to the radio frequency spectrum.
If that's all it takes to do the reception and analysis, then connectivity is the only other hurdle. When everyone has T1 equivalent connectivity at home, I'll bet that distributed.net will have competition from distributed.track.
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I don't see why jamming won't work. Might take a different method than used for normal radar, but overpowering the normal radio and TV bands with signals that are hard for the receivers to analyse should work.
;-)
Also the standard tactic of destroying the transmitters should work just fine - might have to set the anti-RF missles to a new channel though.
I just hope cops don't switch to this tech for traffic radar
Time to cut off Israel
My take on what the technology actually is.
When watching broadcast TV with a crappy antenna, a plane flying overhead will disrupt the signal. An array ground based antennas can determine the exact pattern of the disruption, and with calibration, determine the size and position of the object causing that disruption. Since the goal isn't to watch TV, the detectors can be made much more sensitive to small disruptions.
The best weather to fly in to avoid this sort of detection would be a thunderstorm (but hard on the planes and pilots).
Such a system is not likely to have the precision of conventional radar, ind is more likely to mistake one target for another (I base that on the longer wavelength of commercial broadcasts).
Final critique, it's a very creative idea!
Doppler radar can detect raindrops. I'm sure the same kind of radar would have no problem detecting stealth planes.
There will be a lot of things that the radar picks up that are larger than bumble bee, maybe thousands, but which ones are moving at more than 500mph?
...to kill serbian villagers? i'm not an expert, but you can always go ask your buddy milosovec, moron. he's kills people throughout the region.
According to what I've read about Gulf War rules of engagement, flying below radar is essentially suicidal. Any pocket rocket can take out low-flying aircraft. To get above that American attack aircraft fly nowadays in pods of 4 at 15-20,000 feet using ECM to convince ground-based SAMs that they are one aircraft or multiple pods.
'Wild Weasels' are A4 pilots on anti-SAM duty. They draw SAM radar and fire AMRAMs to blow them up. This scares the bejeesus out of SAM operators who will then only illuminate targets for a quick moment.
The scary thing about this technology is not that it can be used against stealth aircraft, but that it doesn't transmit, and therefore cannot be countered by Wild Weasel tactics.
fault-tolerant
http://silen tsentry.external.lmco.com/proj/nonsecure/sentry/SS home.htm
:wq
the abundence of hate that democracy and communism have towards each other is probably going to culminate in bio-genetic warefare anyway.
let's see, the US chucks a skyburst of a bio-genetic bomb over beijing, wiping out the population, leaving people writhing in agony as blood spurts from their various orifices.
of course, China will chuck a skyburst of a bio-genetic bomb over Los Angeles, wiping out the population, leaving people writhing in agony as blood spurts from their various orifices.
what fun! and all because the USA tends towards laisez faire capitalism, which has a unfortunate side effect of homelessness and a disparate stratification of the classes (high, low, and the big lie).
what fun! and all because China insures it's people have the bare essentials to survive (except for that 5% that live obscenely high on the hog), and refuses to let anyone criticize that system (unless they want to go to jail, a mental hospital, or be executed).
what fun! both sides view the other as evil. oh well, maybe the death agony will be short. or somehow the two side can compromise? will china get free speech and elections? will the US increase human rights and respect for all people?
...I would find a way to disrput GPS services over the battlefield. Bombs using the GPS guidance packages are the B-2's main conventional weapon, and will soon be in widespread use throughout the USAF.
Any bad guy that manages to take out the GPS satellite constellation in some will take away a capability that our armed forces put to very good use.
Hmmm, I don't think going to college really has a terrible lot to do with it. I mean the most evil tyrannical dictator in the history of the world second only to Hitler, Bill Gates, dropped out of college and is sadly one of the most powerful men alive today, and the richest.
Nikola Tesla went to college, where he was told by his professor that a brushless electric motor was "impossible". In fact just about everything he invented defied what college professors thought at the time to be true.
Albert Einstein often cut class to study physics on his own, he went on to become the most famous scientist of all time.
I am by no means saying that a college education is a bad thing. But just because someone isn't a college graduate doesn't make them dumb, and just because someone is a college graduate doesn't mean they are smart.
I believe the saying is "It's sad that having a science degree doesn't make one a scientist."
Hunh? Doesn't "dogfight" imply a turning radius less than the width of Australia?
RADAR's don't detect raindrops per se. The reflections that humidity bearing clouds give back on the scope is pretty distinctive, and all RADARs (SPS-10, SPA-40, misc fire control RADARs) I've used will do that.
And there's a huge difference between DETECTING raindrops and TRACKING raindrops. I HIGHLY doubt even a SPY-1x will TRACK raindrops.
http://www.bullnet.com
Most modern anti aircraft missiles fly at speeds far beyond what any manned craft can attain at any altitude.
Great, another goddamn anti-Commie paranoia festival. Coming soon to a Slashdot near you!
Is China a blockable topic in the Slashdot preferences? I'll have to check.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
A cool use of technology to fix a problem? What problem? You aren't supposed to be able to find stealth planes!
we also have an aircraft named rivit-joint which, by making use of two other planes, flys into enemy airspace and in a matter of seconds knows everything about every kind of transmition in the area. that includes radar, radio, telephone, and of course television. everything in 2 seconds. this planes existance isnt classified, but it isnt glorified either for obvious reasons. measure, counter-measure. neat idea though.
Popular Science had a good article recently detailing how the "stealthiness" of these planes has been greatly exaggerated over the years.
They are not invisible to the eye or modern radar systems.
China's Jindalee clone was demoed with a live track of an aircraft over North China, whose flight parameters just happened to match "stealth"; although nobody there actually made any announcements about this funny track they were showing, the US reps suddenly got very nervous...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
This technology has been around for quite a while. Lockheed Martin has a passive detection system which isn't even completely classified anymore. One of the great things about this tech is that it can do much more than detect anti-stealth aircraft. It can also detect thing flying at very low altitude, which would normally be below radar. Imagine how much low altidute drug traffic can be stopped with a network of silent sentry sites in the Gulf of Mexico.
Many other countries are rumored to have this technology including the Czech Republic and Turkey. When you consider that these places are not the most tech advanced places in the world, it should come as no surpise that we decided to take out all broadcasting capability in Yugoslavia. I'm sure that China having this ability is no shock to the people running the show. What they probably worry about on a daily basis however is when will Iraqi get it. Sooner or later someone will sell it to them and it will get much tougher to bomb them as we are now.
Be insightful. If you can't be insightful, be informative.
If you can't be informative, use my name
This is a ridiculous conjecture.
Firstly, China's army may be the muumerically largest, but straight numbers haven't counted much for at least thirty years. Nukes made straight bean counting irrelevant. Even cursory reading of any military history of the cold war would have illustrated this to you.
Secondly, the logistical problems of sending an army across the pacific to invade the United States would be insurmountable. See Vietnam, or the American Revolutionary War, for examples of what happens to superpowers who overextend their reach.
I spent 8 years as a radar tech in the Navy. I can tune a radar in so good that it can detect a seagull at several miles, But it's worthless when it's tuned in that good. Most of the time you can't find the seagull because there's too much Garbage that is also displayed on the screen. So the radar has to be slightly detuned. That way you only see the stronger signals. Stealth takes advantage of this. Tune the radar in good enough to detect the small radar cross section of the plane and you can't find it on the scope because of all the other garbage. Stealth just hides in the garbage. When you consider how much turbulance there is in the air without any plane to add to it you will quickly run into the same problem of finding the target in the garbage.
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
The scuttlebutt in the U.S. Air Force is it was shot down by an SA-3, but no one knows for sure since the report is classified.
The speculation about the bomb-bay door was that the door stuck in the open postition during the bomb run.
Power Projection.
If you don't know what this means, it is the ability to project power in areas far from your homeland. The United States has this ability, as do the UK and France to a lesser extent. China does not have the warships or experiance to succesfully project power. If you look at the Chinese invasion of Vietnam in 79 they were mauled by the Vietnamese army.
Simply, China or India can not invade the US just because they have more people.
Several groups of two words: spy satellites, cruise missiles, B-2 Bombers, and Sekrit Stuff(TM) we've never ever heard of. Now add in several thousand ICBMs aimed at Chinese cities. Given all this, do you really think China would try to invade the US?
Why would China invade the US anyway? China has the power to invade most countries in the world right now, but you don't see it happening. People who think like this are paranoid. The whole "Us" and "Them" thing is way out of hand. I'm sure the Chinese have no more desire to be involved in a huge, bloody, devastating war than the US does.
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If you have ever been to China, you would understand quite clearly that much of the population lives a peasant lifestyle that has very little to do with the "essentials", at least in a first-world sense.
So no D-day, but rather :D-day IMHO.
Has anyone studied this garbage to see if it is random or not? If it's not, then develope algorithms and tune up the radars. and yes it would be hard, but this is war :) or so were told.
So no D-day, but rather :D-day IMHO.
An invasion could be undertaken on the US. It would have problems though.
First you send in infiltrators, who set up airstrips in remote locations, and purchase ammunition. They purchase vehicles and fuel. You then take about two dozen chartered commercial jet airlines, you load them with troops and land them at US airports all friendly like, most likely the east coast. It doesnt take long for 500 or so armed troops to capture an airport, and then fortify their position quickly. The 747's can carry anti-tank/heavy weaponary, and plenty of ammunition. No food, cause that isnt neccessary. These troops are the first wave and will only be the front line for a short period. 10-20 minutes behind these 747's, are standard long range cargo planes, carrying light armor vehicles and more troops, these land at the commercial airports and at the private airstrips you have set up.
Your troops take the LAU's and go like hell towards your assigned targets. Airbases, Army Bases, Naval Bases, Police Stations, Gun Stores.
The trick is to move fast and capture quickly. A night attack on a weekend would be best, as you would capture quite afew bases relatively lightly manned and vulnerable, you might even bring pilots/tankers/sailors with you to take the captured vechiles and add to the chaos. You continue to bring in troops from china by air and land them at your secured areas.
At this stage it gets sticky. Your main mode of transport of large armor and troops is by sea. Getting by SOSUS is quite hard, and you have to deal with naval assests in the pacific. Hopefully you would attack at a time when a carrier isnt present close by in the pacific. You have to get your tanks in, so one way would be by using normal car carriers, who are on scheduled runs to make landfall on the same day as your attack to deliver vehicles. If you were serious about your plan, you might even nuke pearl/guam in the first 24 hours of your attack, to make it easier to move more heavy units from china to the US. This would also allow you to move a chinese carrier closer to the US to provide air support for the grunts and eventually transferring all aircraft to captured US runways.
You have to link up your heavy armor, light armor and infantry to push inland, obviously after securing your captured cities. You then utilise these cities, and the railroads to supply food and munitions to your front lines as they spread inland. Time elapsed is about 48-72 hours, more then enough time for the US army to mobilise and to present a good front line, possibly near the rockies.
Attack of the US is not an easy task, and requires exquisite timing of delivery of assets. It requires china to send troops a huge distance, and to get past pearl with ships. It would obviously be easier to attack with an allie close by, say from cuba or south america, to attack other borders at the same time. This draws units away from your main assault.
Now this is a possible scenario, if, china had the logistical assets to do this. The Chinese army is much like the soviet army used to be. A large club to bludgeon your opponent to death with numbers, aslong as he is relatively close. China has never had to move huge amounts of troops over an entire ocean to attack an enemy so far from home. It isnt easy logistically. But possible. To make it more interesting, an enemy may even release chemical/biological weapons before he attacks. He may poison water supplies. He may release anthrax or similar diseases. He may sabotage power stations, he may cause an increase in terrorism before hand.
There are alot of things in warfares bag-o-dirty tricks.
As for disabling the US nuclear counter attack, that is a tough nut to crack, and would require unconventional techniques im sure. For example purchasing properties near known ICBM silos, buying a few hundred stingers and praying you can cripple a few missles before they hit your country. Perhaps small backpack nukes could be used to crack the silos at close range, but thats debatable, as those silos are hardened and quite well built. Maybe wait till they open up to launch? Who knows.
Naval nukes are even harder to disable apart from an intense naval campaign by your forces to kill the subs, even then, they can launch from almost anywhere, and damn but their quiet.
Carrier based nukes are also a concern. It is unlikely you would attack the US without first developing a good ABM defence.
So in answer to your comment
'It would be exceedingly difficult to come anywhere near the US shore with any kind of sizable force.'
True, but not impossible. Give war a chance!:)
Insert something insightful here, or I'll insert something painful there.
A Russian aviation fan, who naturally happens to be a fanatic Serb supporter, put up a page about US and Allied losses in the Kosovo campaign.
Check the site out for more information about the F-117 loss, and other claimed US and Allied losses. The F-117 is credited to SA-6 missiles in this page.
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B2 and F117 planes have been detected, sometimes accidentally, by other American jets. I am not offering conjecture - there are written accounts of accidental detection.
Detection of these planes is no longer considered difficult by first-world defense planners.
As for the B2 - it is a plane without a mission, and an egregious waster of money.
The Air Force knew this plane was not a useful countermeasure and attempted to block its development (see quotes by Gen. Horner, who was then the commanding General of the Air Force). Think about it - if the Soviets (who were the threat at the time) had portable launchers, they could hide them anywhere in the five million hectares of forest in what was the Soviet Union. You can't bomb what you can't find.
By the way, spy satellites cannot see through solid object, so the the density of the Soviet forest was well suited to block prying eyes from watching missiles launchers from being moved around.
As a small common-sense conjecture, one must wonder why the B-52 is still the most heavily used bomber in service, even though the B1 and B2 were intended to replace it (at least partially).
I remeber a quote on the subject of F-22s vs. the newest Russian fighters.
"If you have a sniper rifle and you are trying to shot a knife wielding midget in a telephone booth are you going to get in the phone booth with the midget or are you going to shot him with the rifle?"
The point is a fighter like the F-22 isn't going to get in a knife fight with an SU-35 or F-16. It is going to stand-off and fire AMRAAM missiles at a range where the target is unable to lock on to the F-22. An F-22 will prbly be one hell of a dog-fighter, like the F-15 or F/A-18 is, but thats not it's primary job. It's job is to defend the AWACS/JSTARS and sweep the skys so the F-117s and F-16s can do thier job.
Just wipe out all the commercial broadcast transmitters in the region. Maybe tell neighbouring countries to turn theirs off or else. In all the recent wars they were doing this as a matter of course (fighting "media war"). But a better long-term solution is to work on cheap strike missiles and minimally stealthed UAVs and get pilots out of the frypan. With new advances in reconnaissance positioning and communication links it would probably already be cheaper to do this than piloted stealth.
Not nearly hard enough, or the US wouldn't be making such heavy use of F-15s and B-52s. Not nearly hard enough, or illiterate reservists in Yugoslavia wouldn't be able to swat them out of the sky.
You could say they got a lucky shot, but that would run counter to the growing number of accounts of easy radar locks pilots are getting on these planes, sometimes without any extra effort (since you like citations, check recent PopSci articles to this efect).
The Soviet Union spent more than 70 billion dollars for radar technology. The investment meant that they had the most advanced radar technology at the time. But it was disappointing to them, because of stealth technology. All powerful nations have very bright ideas and good technologies, but it's never good to take a step that's too big. A country should invest, check if it works and then invest some more. Not so much investment at a time. Countries shouldn't fear each other's technology, if the hostility reduces, countries might learn from each other. VX rockets were feared sixty years ago, but in this generation they are used for satellite launches and that sort of stuff.
The planes were originally designed to be baby blue to blend in to the daytime sky. The military simply thought they didn't look threatening enough. They wanted black. Now they have to fly at night.
The end result is that a baby blue plane would be less visible during day, and essentially as invisible at night. A black plane offers a small advantage at night, but during the day is plainly visible even in bad weather.
This is why the plane's original color was suppoed to be baby blue.
Think about it - airliners are usually painted white. Can you see them any better above your house at night because of this? No, because there is no light to reflect off of them in any case.
From what I read, it mainly means that PRC can now expect to lose most of their broadcast transmitters to American cruise missles in the first hour of any action against Taiwan. Ditto Taiwan. Or am I missing something here?
You must know that in this forum, people only get indignant when someone violates the GPL. Every other license or copyright is "IN L3AGU3 W1TH 81LL GA7E5" and hence doesn't need to be observed.
I browsed through the articles and read about fear of invasion. You should go out more often! In Russia, they think Americans will invade Russia, in the U.S. they think either Russia will invade the U.S. or China. People wake up! No one wants to invade no one. There are wars about territories going on, but at this moment there are no plans for any superpower to colonize another superpower. e2fsck your brainwashed heads people! And don't forget -c.
Peace.
Isn't that more like just one word? *g*
Anyways, the distance from UK to France is a lot shorter than from China to US. The US would learn about the invasion early enough to build a good defence at the west coast and Mexican+Canadian borders (it is highly unlikely that China would attempt a direct invasion). Besides, there is absolutely no way to prepare a large invasion in secret these days. AFAIK, Germany didn't have any spy satellites at WW2 ;-)
I agree. You'd need to have a good understanding of EM radiation, antenna design etc. Then you'd need some signal processing kit. Due to the amount of EM around, I thing DSP would be daft (in the initial stages of the processing setup at least). I'd look at doing filtering with tuned passive stuff first, then feeding that to some electronics to watch variations, then feed that to an output stage (I'd be doing at a lot of oscilloscope time before I considered digitising it).
I live near a large flock of ravens (corvid family - about 150 of them). They fly over at predictable times at between 30 and 120 feet. I'd calibrate the kit against them first. Calibrating the setup, and keeping it calibrated, would be the headache.
If I could detect the ravens, then I'd ask the US military for a stealth plane to play with. This is where the 'hobbyist' bit is limiting.
I suspect there would be major problems in a populated area with transmissions from electric motors, microwave ovens, mobile phones, overhead lines and all the other bits of electromagnetic technology we rely on. I'd give it a go if I had the time, though.
1) The ships would take several days to get here, and they'd be picked up by satellites LONG before they go to North America.
2) the entire invasion force could be taken out with a nuke, while it was at sea. What would the Chinese say, that they were sending over 50 cruise liners as a good will gesture?
3) They could invade Alaska, if they got the Russians to go along with it, by crossing the Bering Straight. Personally, I wouldn't want to travel over a thousand miles of tundra and mountains with no roads. I doubt the Chinese army would either. HUGE logistical problems.
China isn't going to invade, period. North America is just too far away to make it feasible.
Now that that's aside, I'll make mention of our little stealth-detecting technology.
It sucks. Plain and simple, it's not a good thing for the US - the masqurading force in freedom preservation and technical innovation, amongst other things. If America's military force and status is challenged any more, it will eventually crumble to another attacking nation. China now presents itself as the second, if not first, most powerful nation in the world. They've got our missile technology (thanks Bill), and now they seem to have technology that could possibly rival and destroy the most expensive and powerful air force in the world. It has the potential to nullify millions - or even billions and trillions - of dollars in research.
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
"the typhoon is huge"
Right. The largest military sub to see active duty.
"it is nuclear powered rather than desal (sp) powered"
Wrong. The Typhoon boats are nuclear, diesel, and battery powered. Why do you think they were so darned big? The reactor put out enough juice for a city. If that failed, there were two mammoth diesel engines. By mammoth, I mean 12'x10'x6', 10,000+ hp, and enough tourque to drive the boat through the water at 20 knots. Should those fail, there were two large banks of dry cell batteries on either bow. The batteries served three purposes:
"I don't think the largest sub in the world is more silent than the water around it."
Wrong. Here's an example: Let's say that there is a skyscraper in the middle of a field (just follow me on this). Now let's say that the wind is blowing out of the North. Let's also say that you are blind, and walking past the south side of the building (going East to West). There will be a point when the building will start to block out the wind. Logic will tell you that it's no longer windy, and it's also very quiet. You may then deduce that there is a building to your right. Here's a diagram:
**********************
**********************
.........--------*****
.........||||||||*****
.........||||||||*****
....o....||||||||*****
.........||||||||*****
.........||||||||*****
.........--------*****
**********************
**********************
Legend:
* = wind;
-,| = building;
o = you;
. = calm air;
Now, relate that to being in a sub. Since there is always ambient noise in the ocean, the trick is to find someplace where there isn't enough noise. That'll be a Typhoon (or maybe a Charlie) with her plant cut way back. If you know where you are and how fast you're going, you can figure a bearing on the Typhoon. Once you have that, you can use basic trig to figure out range, speed, and mark, in that order. After that, it's simple to sneak up and fire your torps and get back out.
zantispam (who gets waaaaaaaay to into this stuff)
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
censorship is a form of noise, which actively seeks to drown out content with silence - Crash Culligan
Who cares.. the Russians have had this for YEARS. How do you think they shot down the stealth in Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War?
I somewhat agree. There are over a billion of them in the world now. At least need to be nuked, if for no other reason than to reduce world food consumption. Our grains could go to more worthy causes, like the people of Bosina. However, you also have to be sensitive to their concerns. Therefore, I recommend a simple poisoning of the rice - they all eat rice (duh) and so they would die off, and we wouldn't have to use nuclear bombs and risk fallout and the like. Good idea IMHO. Lets move forward. How about a CVS server.. Anyone? Does this qualify as an Open-Source project?
This is not a new development, Lockheed had
this system developed years ago. Hell, they
even wanted to sell it as a Air Traffic Control
System.
In any case Stealth technology is not that
great anyhow, it is relatively trackable
by decent missiles anyhow.
Hell, it was shown that the more advanced
IR/Radar SA(Surface to Air) missiles could
track them with relative ease.
In any case, an arms race with China will
probably be inevitable anyhow given a U.S.
stance of global military superiority.
-Alan
-- Man was created on the seventh day when god was tired. --
Eh? I don't think so. You're looking for an interference pattern caused by a source of reflection/scattering that is moving over time. All you'd have to do is take deltas in strength and phase from one sample to the next (good clocks are necessary to synchronize the timekeeping) and look for the source of the stuff that changed (backtrack a spherical wave and its reflections to the source). This is not black magic;
It is also not something that a hobbyist except maybe a fanatical hobbyist would be able to pull off. How much time and money do you think a hobbyist would have to put into developing something like this? I probably just don't have a good feel for the capabilities of the average hobbyist and probably am underestimating them. It just doesn't seem very likely that it would be an easy task.
OH MAN MODERATE THIS UP i TOTALLY AGREE LETZ GET CVS LIKE U SAY i WILL RUN AT WWW.COMMIE.ORG SHOULD BE UP IN 15 MINUTES GIMME UR E-MAIL ADDRESS TO DISCUSS.
My email address is kr4dgenocidist@hotmail.com.
Kickass! I'll supply the brains, you supply the poison!
China and the USSR got on bad relations decades ago. I don't think that the "collapse of communism" changed that much.
Even so, you would NOT want to send troops over the Bering strait. Why not? Terrain! Go look at a map, count mountain ranges. That is *not* territory through which you want to maintain an overland supply train.
No, the idea of China invading the US any time soon is sheer idiocy. They are far better advised to just wait. The US today is the largest debtor nation in the world, and it has held that title for over a decade. The current economic boom is hiding it, but eventually the markets will wake up to the fundamental economic reality, and in due course of time military might will follow the money.
The days of the US single-handedly dominating the planet are numbered, and the Chinese leadership knows it. This is not to say that the US will be toothless any time soon. But, like the British Empire before it, the Spanish empire before that, and so on through history, economics is catching up to current World Superpower.
Of course the realization of this status may take a while. Look at the British Empire. Between WW I and WW II the stage was set for its collapse. WW II demonstrated that it would not last, and the years following saw Britain quickly losing its territory. Yet the British public didn't realize this for decades after. They even went to war defending a corner of the Empire as late as the 1980s, and we still have as a last cultural hurrah the James Bond movies...
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
Maybe we could use this to finally detect and prove that UFO's exist.
And shortly after this information was leaked, secret double-agent panda Hsing-Hsing committed suicide at the National Zoo. The tricky part was knowing the leak was going to happen months in advance so he could start dying of renal failure.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
What happened, did the Chinese guy in your class score an A and you an F?
Moderate these nazi pigs down!
Humans of such pathetic low level of intelligence shouldn't be on a technical messageboard!
Racists like these should be buried alive in their parents garden.
By the way, you're a nazi wannabe, I'm Dutch and therefore I can speak German, you want to be German, but you're not, your're a low-life, trailerhouse, drunk childmolester! F.U.!
Jealous moron. I knock you out with 1 fist. (right between your pig-eyes) You can't hide because you're on the net. Come up, show yourself, coward mosquito! Maybe it's more fun to knock you out with 3 moves, one knuckle on your left eye, one knee in your balls and a pen in your girl-voiced throat. I'm big, I'm fast, I'm smart and hungry for a man-to-man fight with a wimp like you.
Since it's basically just a really another way of tracking planes, this technology has no offensive capabilities, right? I mean, it's not like it's a radar system that can be mounted onto a ship and taken into a theater of conflict - this technology is totally for defensive use only.
So why the hell are people so upset about it? Gee, poor USAF, they are gonna fly their plane into some other country's airspace and they might actually get shot down? Oh, horror, horror.
All the racist comments from the Chinese-bashing idiots about how this technology in the hands of the Chinese is evil are about as valid as a script kiddie grumbling about the new firewall that someone installed to protect their box from "l33t h4x0r winnuke" attacks.
-=- SiKnight
In general, everything I've heard, which has been common knowledge in the west, has been that the MiG fighters have a very good reputation for engineering. In particular, westerners seem amazed (I was amazed, for one) to learn that the MiGs are not fly-by-wire and are still very easy to fly.
-- "Ever wonder why the SAME PEOPLE make up ALL the conspiracy theories?"
It's my WAY or the HIGHW..., wait a sec has this been done before ?
A Bugg
Honestly, this isn't all that much of a surprise for a number of reasons. The article goes very lightly on Lockheed Martin's Silent Sentry system which we've had for years. So much, in fact, that the way that it works isn't even classified anymore.
Furthermore, it seems that the by using commercial broadcasts you're risking a lot. Turn on your TV with just an antenna. Even use a really powerful antenna. Unless you're right by your local TV station, you're out of luck. The picture will get scrambled from interfereance over space by the uneven random distrubance of everything from atmosphereic/pressure differences to object's in it's path. So unless you had a vaccum and a perfect signal between all your recieving antennas (as has been pointed out you'd need at leat 3 to get a 3D reading, although more would be helpful.), you'll have some interference and turbulance. Furthermore, radio signals in places like China are less likely to be reliable than in more developed countries.
Also remember that we've had this technology for a number of years. We haven't widely deployed it dispite the fact that it's cheaper to do so than most conventional radars. Believe me, the military likes *NEW* toys more than they like *EXPENSIVE* toys. And this would be a new toy. It evedeintly isn't that reliable, unless the Chinese have managed to leapfrog us in this.
Also it's been pointed out that you can just start taking out TV/radio stations. The silence would be deadly if this was your only air defense. You could also theoretically do such things as rotate the plane every now and then to change the way that it disturbs the air. By traveling at different directions to the wind and at different angles and wind patterns, you'll change the turbulance that you create. Also remember that air craft (with the exception of ones like the F-117, designed before we had good enough computers to effectively design a plane like the F-22) are *DESIGNED* to make as little disturbance as possible. Before it was just areodynamics, now it may be a possible way to be stealthy. Futhermore a system this sensative would also detect things such as low pressure zones, air disturbance created by such things as factories, etc. (especially in cities), and would probably be *MUCH* more prevalant than the signature left by a 20m aircraft.
of course the next step is quantum stealth
you can detect it, but as soon as you figure out where it is, you cannot know where its going
Austrailian radar techs discovered they could find stealth aircraft by bouncing radar off the turbulence behind the plane. If you've ever seen an F-117 it has some pretty awesome turbulence, so awesome it needs special compensators just to let the thing fly. Until someone figures out how to build an aircraft with little or no turbulence caused by drag anything is detectable if you put some thought into it.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Dude youre an idiot. Dogfights happen between highly manuverable fighters like f-16A's and Mig-29's and f-16C's and Su-27's, f-15s and the whole line of russian planes. Not the U2 and the migs. Migs in the days of U2's couldn't keep up with the U2's if Nikita kruschev's life depended on it...Mig's shadowed u2, now thats funny
It's the Austalian Jindilee over-the-horizon radar project. The full system is still under construction, but the prototypes work very nicely against conventional and stealth aircraft. Not sure how it will go next time you americans lob a space station at us, though.
Hemos and the like.. you've made some good posts..but this is off the wall - what do you mean "cool use of technology".. to solve "a problem".. you guys might want to think a little..your sounding like teenagers who just saw a James Bond film.. nothing cool here
We all know if China really had something like this then they could very well use it for:
- tracing all pro democratic or anti-gov broadcasts. Unlike in this country where your free to transmit whatever your dement..
- putting our pilots at risk. that means the 18-22yr old kid on the other end of the street who flys one of those stealth planes.
- spending more Tax $$ on something new to meet the challenge..
- Within 2yrs they will attack Taiwan.. that is not only going to turn the technology world (your wonderful stocks too) upside down, but also the balance of power.. china is expansionist, you have no IDEA the level of their governments commitment to this.
I am not so gung-ho about mil tech.. but we do have all this tech crap for something..thats to protect our freedom. thats not a patriotic stance its just common sense. I've lived in a communist country for a few years on exchange.. you realize what it means to have what you have here..
wake up man. Now let some idiot half brain respond to to this...nothing cool about it.
Anyways.. they (CIA) probably knew about for some time and decided its time to post this so that mil can get $$ for Aurora. (what their building in Colorado)..the one that I've read on various sites.. Uses fiber optic stuff to project basically invisible plane. yeah the fibers lead into panels that project a clear image..or the image behind it.. you can't see it.. day attack no problem if you can't see it from a mile away.. doubt that claim..? check out EG&G ad in EE times (area-51 recruiter) for more opitical engineers.. although I guess the turbulence might be a problem for the more common F-22s.. either scrap it and comeup with something better costly $$, or sabatoge the labs..risky.
there's the answer to the weather question. But will it work for high flying planes?
Can we say Pearl Harbor????? The US radar people SAW the PLANES on there radar but did they do anything about it nope. Must be a glitch or birds.
Ya right. oops there went most of the US naval fleet.
One thing I haven't seen comment on is the importance of its being a passive system. Radar attracts radar-seeking missiles and generally alerts targets to their being tracked. This system could guide interception without attracting attention to itself.
udin
Well as cool and usefull as this is it is not the death of stealth technology in it's current form. Using a signal that you don't controll adds a step to identifying a target. For example someone detects what apears to be a stealth aircraft on a bombing run over beijing, The detected change could be the result of some malfunction at the source of the signal that is being tracked. The operator would have to call to see that there is no problem with the tranmission itself, then report the target to someone who can visually confirm the target before any counter attack could be launched. This is a very exploitable weakness... The agressor could limit attacks to coastal areas where he can drop whaterver bombs he needs to and hightail it out of there.
A better long term solution? How about constructively searching for peaceful solutions?
Upon seeing the box was too small, Schrodinger's Elephant breathed a sigh of relief.
There have been several references to the mysterious Australian radar which can detect Stealth aircraft. I think a clarification is needed on the operating principles of this radar.
As far as I remember, this specific radar used to be called "JINDALEE" by the Australians, and it's an "over-the-horizon" radar, which works by bouncing the radar signals off the low layers of the atmosphere to see over the horizon. The radar required seperate transmitter and receiver arrays with some distance between them (sometimes called a "bistatic" configuration) and hence could detect stealth aircraft, since the receiver array could pick up radar echoes scattered by the special shape of the body of Stealth aircraft.
--
BluetoothCentral.com
A site for everything Bluetooth. Coming in January 2000.
Zigbee Central: A Zigbee weblog
That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I realize that we allowed that to happen. I think today though, if we saw four or five aircraft carriers steaming torwards Pearl harbor we'd take pretty quick notice. The people in the military are fairly smart individuals contrary to most people's opinion.
Simple! They would just go up through Russia to the North Pole then down through Canada ...
Oh Shit, I think I've been playing too much Civilization again!
Yes but when they got there they'd have the second amendment to content with!
"3) They could invade Alaska, if they got the Russians to go along with it, by crossing the Bering Straight. Personally, I wouldn't want to travel over a thousand miles of tundra and mountains with no roads. I doubt the Chinese army would either. HUGE logistical problems."
Not a chance in Hell. The Russians and the Chinese don't like eachother very much. (See my post earlier in this thread.)
Cheers,
Perrin.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
Stealth bombers are designed to be 'invisible'. They are a 'hole' in the air. This works well because most radars searching for bombers are on the ground. Air with nothing in it is blank, so a B2 blends right in.
It's when you scan downwards that things fall apart. In Australia the the CSIRO built the Jindalee over-the-horizon radar. It works by bouncing radar signals off magnetised sections of the far upper atmosphere.
The short form is: "Hmmm ... what's this in Nevada? It's a batwing-shaped hole moving at 600mph. Now I wonder what that is?"
Australia. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the south-east pacific...
be well;
JC.
-- The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the fictional entity who may or may not have expressed them
I remember doing some research on this a while back. It's been possible to detect stealth aircraft for quite some time now. Although, it's somewhat difficult, because it uses a combination of methods together to get a positive ID. It combines radar, infared, satelite, and I belive 1 or 2 other "common" methods of detection. However, the biggest problem behind it was integration the data coming from the multiple sources.
If you are that concerned about world population, perhaps you could do the world a favour and euthanise the other guy, then give Kervorkian a call.
Read the first chapter of "Fortress America" for free on CNN.com. The current military spending is higher than in 1980, even if you allow for inflation.
You then take about two dozen chartered commercial jet airlines, you load them with troops and land them at US airports all friendly like, most likely the east coast. It doesnt take long for 500 or so armed troops to capture an airport, and then fortify their position quickly.500? In most large cities, the police alone would outnumber and outgun them, let alone the national guard.
Your troops take the LAU's and go like hell towards your assigned targets. Airbases, Army Bases, Naval Bases, Police Stations, Gun Stores.
By this time a full scale military alert would already have been triggered, and Beijing would be glowing with the aid of a nearby submarine. Added to which, it would be trivial to block access routes and tie off the groups of troops. Your troops would be stranded, hunted, and eventually crushed with ease most likely by state police units alone, who would once again substantially outnumber and outgun your troops on the ground.
You have one basic flawed premise - the surprise attack. Most likely any hostilities between the two powers would be preceeded by months of posturing, during which time national defenses would be beefed up, airports made more secure, and submarines and bombers would be scouting their targets. Satellites would easily, easily detect any significant movement. Intelligence would likely be able to predict the movement with great accuracy.
I think you've watched Red Dawn too many times.
Oh yeah? If they are so smart, what the hell are they doing in the military in the first place?
holy shit they gonna poke our eyes!
How long did you serve in the military!!!#@!#@ Jesus I swear there are more goobs in the armed forces than any other part of society.
Japan did what the North America? Invade a couple of the Aleutians, and land a few small shells fired by a sub on Vancouver Island? Yay.
We need a president who will stand up to these fucking commies, no the limp loser we have now!!!
Please. This is the plot for a b-movie, not a real occurrence.
A few comments on other replies and the article:
1) Designers of low observability ships, aircraft, and submarines have known for years (more than two decades) that you have to be careful not to make a vehicle _too_ stealthy, lest the enemy detect it by its absense of signature. Nothing new here.
2) It's pretty unlikely that the chinese have acquired an F-117 for detection testing, much less a B-2 or F-22, so the comment that this "system" could detect these aircraft is pure speculation.
3) Even IF such a system existed, and worked, and is or would soon be in place in China, it won't affect US policy there much. The US doesn't sneak aircraft into China often, and if an attack was planned, the first wave of strikes would be easily detectable (by RADAR or IR) unmanned missiles. China would know what was coming anyway. This system might help China detect U2s, but that's what satellites are for.
4) Such a passive system IF it worked might detect aircraft, but detection is only part of the puzzle. I doubt such a system could be used for missile targeting. Since it would hypothetically rely on background RF noise, it could probably only provide a ballpark location for a target. Interception of a target would still require active detection, either SAM RADAR or fighter aircraft onboard systems, and as soon as a transponder went active, a STARM or Phoenix could find and silence it.
5) Since the hypothetical system relies on background RF energy for tracking, you only need to send out more RF energy to jam it. "But wait" you say - "What if the Chinese system can tell the difference between our jamming and the background RF for purposes of tracking?" Well, if the Chinese had reliable technology to do that, they'd put it on their SAM systems, not in a limited-use passive detection network.
6) The comment someone made that an F-117 is "only undetectable when flying below 100m" is BS. The aircraft is so unstable that no pilot in his right mind would fly one that low, in the turbulent air close to the ground, and if he did, his acoustic signature (noise) would make him trivial to detect.
In short, this article is a fantasy or a deliberate attempt at misinformation. Think about it - isn't one possible reaction to this story "Gee, we'd better give some more dollars to defense spending to make better stealth stuff."
Erik
A lot of you yanks are whinging about other nations being able to detect your hostile aircraft. Perhaps you would like them to stop doing this, scrap their defense systems, and hell.. why not paint targets on their chests while they're at it? What arrogance! It is better for the world if the US military, and all other militaries, are renderd a little more impotent by purely defensive tech such as this. I cheer for any nation that focuses on defense rather than attack.. if China fights a war, the battlefield will be in China. In the hundreds of wars the US has fought, how many have been defensive? So which is the most evil of the superpowers?
So what to do about a military?
I would maintain an active stockpile of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons that could be maintained by a smaller force. Use them when needed.
As for foreign policy, drop it completely. I could care less if Egypt and Israel destroy each other. I could care less about Taiwan. Drop any notion of trying to "democratize" developing nations. If they want to play "Lord of the Flies", let them. It means nothing to me if armed nuts roam the streets of Uganda.
The number is...umm...around 5
Why not just ship a couple hundred thousand insurgents over with hot little H1-B visas in their hands? The best way to beat a system is to use it against itself. :)
And even so, isn't that one of those web pages that makes outrageous claims like dozens of allied aircraft being shot down, landing at Serb airports after taking missile damage, turning around and bombing Aviano airbase because they were morally opposed to the NATO aggression, etc etc etc and other fantasies
Pointing to yet another major problem. The "lifers" are dropping out like flies. Except for sometime around 1790, I doubt our forces have been so young, green and ill trained.
The attitude of the current administration and the "political correct" Bravo Sierra that has been forced upon the services in the name of social engineering has taken a huge toll in non-coms and real officers (but not the brass kissing, career building, type that are worthless on a battle field - unfortunately the current environment is great for them - yuk!)
Smith & Wesson: The original Point-and-Click interface.
...so everybody lookie -- our evil Chinese enemies made some incremental progress in radar technology, everybody should be scared shitless, shut up about human rights and social problems in US, forget about rotting education, and start supporting True American Values -- chauvinism, big guns and meaty contracts to large companies.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
The 1000 number is pure guesswork. I suspect that 1000 antennae could do a really good job, but I don't have a feel for the number cruncing or bandwith requirements. You might need substantially more computers than that -- but spare cycles are more abundant than people who can build an antenna.
I like a little paranoia as much as the next person, but going from the detection of Stealth planes to a Chinese invasion of the US is a bit of a stretch, even for the eccentric segment of /. posters. I, for one, go to sleep every night with a high degree of confidence that tomorrow the sun will rise, there will not be black helicopters flying overhead, and those darn communists, socialists, liberals, secular humanists, gun control advocates, athiests or whatever your favorite Boogy Men happen to be won't be marching down Main Street. So, unload your guns and put them away, cancel your subscription to Survivalist Weekly, and have a warm cup of tea. You'll feel better. Really.
wants to be the first monkey to touch the monolith
To purchase it is not like spending money but rather it is an investment in the future in a blow against the empire
I bet the computation problem to decode and plot every single sector of sky would be ENORMOUS. While I don't doubt that China has acquired a supercomputer (probably given to them by Clinton...)
I doubt that China would allocate such a precious resource to this system (there are other problems more worthy) Leaving it with run-of-the-mill workstations for the problem.
Also, one thing that i've heard from my GPS contacts, is that the atmosphere is a HIGHLY variable beast. So the radio skew between 1 location to another is probably not constant (ie, small cloud goes overhead, air becomes denser as seen by 1 antenna - does that get interpretted as a plane?) I bet the false echoes on this are incredible.
Furthermore, wouldn't the aircraft have to fly close to the detection net? I'd bet your error would *significantly* increase the farther the plane was from the net. So simply, avoid the radar depot!
Tom
this MIGHT work for detection.. but creating a real-time firing solution for a supersonic missile to close on a supersonic target? i think thats unlikely... it might work with the Malaysian Starburst system (laserguided) for final guidance Also note its vulnerable to even having HEAVY radio traffic.. thats vulnerable too this is a spotter not a shooter
No, don't worry folks, China won't get to invade you even though they have a bigger propulation, because the rest of us won't let them, any more than we'd let *you* invade, oh, say, the Divided Kingdom of Small Britain. Thank (insert deity here) for our burgeoning world democracy.
Put those big sticks down over here please...Everybody!
"We reject kings, presidents and voting. We believe in rough consensus and running code." Dave Clark, IETF
...you are a fan of statistics, which show that you are merely throwing up the exception, not the rule.
overwhelmingly, every study has shown higher education leads to more productivity and a better life.
or, perhaps you think that an entire generation of Teslas will rise up, all of which dropped out of school, and somehow save humanity at the brink of destruction?
don't forget, for every telsa a huge number of engineers and technologists are required for the implementation phase...unless you think tesla is still alive somewhere, winding ac motors, and installing them on the power poles in your neighborhood while you sleep.
None required a move of a huge force across an ocean. But if you want counterexamples of what happens to superpowers that try to exert influence from thousands of miles away, try Vietnam or the American Revolutionary War.
In both instances the reigning world power was humilliated by a vastly inferior local force.
I beg to differ--one of those holidays which you have but the rest of us don't have would be best, so I guess you just got off again...good!
Think about it: half of you stuck in too-small airline seats at 37000 feet, stuffed full o'turkey, fast asleep and in an eternal holding pattern over Fort Worth.
As for those on the ground, why, obviously they'd be there 'cos they're just toooo big for a plane altogether, so we'd just tip them over (you know, like cows). They'd never be able to get up again...no need for violence at all.
(If in doubt, get somebody to tickle you and you'll display the appropriate reaction.)
"We reject kings, presidents and voting. We believe in rough consensus and running code." Dave Clark, IETF
...the People's Republic of China thanks you for moderating this capitalist pig dissident down.
When you are placed against the wall, we will give you only the finest cigarette, and a well-trained rifleman.
Slashdot moderators are truly our comrades! We kiss you!
...is it possible for a man to ejacluate when he is limp? monica's dress had his semen stains on it, so he must be able to ejaculate, and therefore had to have been erect. I seem to recall that an erection actuates some type of valve between the urninary and seminal streams. No matter, tis merely a detail.
Other than that, I agree. a lot of evidence points to Chinese money flowing heavily through the White House and several of the USAs "Fortune 100" companies.
The F100 are looking with an eager, jealous eye at China's slave population, yearning for the days when they could treat domestic employees so poorly. The idea of transfering US labor to a slave institution has them chomping at the bit, and the F100 is donating huge sums of money to any politician who will cooperate.
The saddest part is the opposition to China's expansion into world trade want only a few concessions:
1) The right to free speech;
2) The right to organize labor;
3) Democratization/Free elections.
Then no one would really have an argument against China's participation in World Trade. Most people in the West can't even imagine what it would be like without these three things.
Of course, the 5% (or less) of Chinese who are making millions want none of that, the status quo being just fine for them.
And USA's F100 want none of it either, since the idea of a return to a employee pool who cannot talk back, organize, or vote is their "Field of Dreams".
So you say you want a revolution, well you know...we'd all love to hear the plan...
...but if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow...
...don't you know it's gonna be...alright...
Man, I wish I had a link to the lyrics to this Beatles song, it's seems so appropriate to the "China Series" on slashdot.
Finally.US will have to send in ground troopers to fight.Something new for their coward tacticts. BTW, US couldn't have had advantage in stealth and jamming technologies forever.........
I remember when watching ST4, when they were looking for the whales after they were loosed into the ocean. Long before they were even close, they had a picture of the ocean and whales. They only had a radio beacon, yet they imaged the ocean surface and the whales as they came up to breathe. There was obviously no camera above that spot and unless they hacked a 20th century spy satellite, the image was impossible to get. I thought about it for a while, then explained (in my mind) what seemed to be an impossibility with the following:
In the 23'd century, they may just have enough savvy to use the interference/diffraction patterns of the radio waves coming off of the tracking collars to produce a computer-generated image. They would have to fiddle with it for a while, to get the water and air temp, salinity, air pressure/density, etc. parameters adjusted, but the computing horsepower they must have could iterate through a lot of variables to lock in on a usable image. I imagined something akin to holography, but using the radio signal instead of light. Now mind you I don't have the details worked out, but it at least provided a way for me to rationalize the tech in the flick.
I also worked on a NASA project where the researcher had come up with a way to take Schlieren photos of shockwaves off of an aircraft in flight by using the sun's light as a parallel source (by looking at it through a fingernail shaped slit) and using the resulting interference pattern viewed with a line-scan camera to image the variations in air pressure. Previous to his work, this had only been possible in a wind tunnel, because of the need for a collimated light source and some funky lenses.
This tech which the Chinese have apparently crafted seems to me to be related to both of those tales, one real and one vaguely imagined. hmmm.
I've read on the russian pages that their new anti-aircraft system,with range(radius) radius of 400 km has a new-generation radar which can detect very small reflection surfaces,such as of stealth planes.Rockets of this system have,I think, speed of 4.8 Km/s (????) So,Russia has anti-stealth technology,and they're trying to make their stealth plane. And I've even heard of their system for jamming anti-radar weapons...............
Do you remember the bombimg of the chinese embassy in Belgrade.
Do you also remember that a few days before a stealth fighter was shot down???
How is it possible that the serbs did shot down a stealth fighter??? Here is a roumor that I heard. Maybe US bombed the chinese embassy because the chinese made the technology that your are discussing available to the serbs. With this technologie the serbs were able to shot down a stealth fighter.
Is there somebody able to confirm this????
Read more: at Lockheed Martin, about Silent Sentry, about a shuttle launch and about information dating back over a year - this all comes very sudden and suprising to the US defense, completely new and previously unknown technology.
© Copyright 1999 Kristian Köhntopp
To prevent broaching. Subs are designed to be a tiny bit boyant. That's why when they move normally at a constant depth the diving planes are at a slight down angle (usually a degree or two). If the sub stops moving, she can no longer totally control her depth. That's a Bad Thing ©
Actually not true. You can adjust your buoyancy any way you want. This is done with ballast tanks, of course. A missile sub can adjust buoyancy via normal means, as well as missile comp tanks. These are large tanks which fill with water to adjust buoyancy after missiles are launched (i.e. the missiles are more dense than the water which replaces them in the tube). They also sometimes add a small adjustment to these tanks after being out to sea for a couple months (food is used up by the crew, forcing a compensation).
Some boats can rapidly cycle water within special tanks. The idea here is to keep the sub level, since it is tough to perfectly adjust the different ballast tanks available on the boat.
Steerage. Almost the same problem as above. Any good skipper will try to go no slower than 2 or 3 knots. That way, the boat will still be responsive to steering input. Why? beacause...
True...
Sonar equipment only works in cones or echelons. Problem: you cannot cover the entire 360 degrees around a boat with one passive sonar. Solution: have multiple passive sonars. Most boats have a front array, lateral array, and some (I know the Los Angeles boats do) have towed arrays. For those to work, the boat needs to be able to move the arrays around (purposes of triangulation and all). Not entirely true. I would say a primary motivation for staying mobile is the towed array sonar. It is used quite often (and I would guess that missile subs are even MORE likely to use it). Reason: towed array sonar places a minimum AND maximum on your speed. The line must stay drawn out, but it also can't handle too much stress. This might tie the hands of an attack boat captain. But the missile boats prefer to putt around anyhow, so it's nice to have the extra ears. Now the other reason to move is to clear your baffles. The towed array helps detect noise to the rear, but you do have dead spots to the diagonal rear behind you. That's why you'll often hear about subs moving in a serpent-pattern.
Therefore: Subs will never not move.
False. A missile sub will stop when preparing to launch missiles (not that this happens every day ;)) See ballasting notes above.
Sorry for all the nitpicks - most of your writing has been pretty on target. You're right that subs generally would like to stay mobile. Another reason: navigation / targeting often benefits from motion. In other words, it's easier to get something's position when you know how it relates to your own location over time.
I'd fill in more, but you know...
Oh one more thing - as far as I know, all nuclear powered subs have a diesel-electric and/or battery backup. But I really doubt a Typhoon will get 20 knots out of it :) Diesels have all kinds of problems which limit them. For example when running submerged, you get backpressure on your exhaust due to the water it has to push through (via the snorkel). And with the snorkel raised, you once again get speed limited, because you don't want to break off the mast. They're also noisy as hell.
Battery power is quiet, but not very strong. A boat won't run too long (maybe a couple hours?). You use the diesel to charge the battery.
Oh yeah, and the diesel gives everything on the boat, especially your clothes, a quite unforgettable odor. :-)
SEAL
Here is a reply to some of the threads below, didnt think the post would generate such interest but here goes, ill try and answer some of your criticisms.
Firstly, the above plan isnt THE plan for total victory over the US. It is an invasion plan.
Invasion meaning, 'your troops set foot on enemy soil', not 'you accept the presidents surrender and youre home in time for tea.' Such campaigns dont exist, and never will.
A war is a set of campaigns, an invasion is just one campaign of a war. So set that straight now.
An invasion that could possibly happen, but obviously not from China, as i said in my earlier post, china's armed forces are very limited in what they can do, the above was hypothetical, but marginally possible. If the planets are aligned and the wind is blowing just right.
The strategy does have some holes, no strategy is without them, or wars would last only hours. The best strategy is one that has the fewest holes, and assumes the least about the enemy, and most often the simplest and quickest to execute.
Also remember, few plans survive the first shot.
Now i have assumed a few things about the enemy, hitting upon the night of a holiday or weekend, when many US personell are away, getting laid, on shore leave, or getting drunk in the O club. I am assuming he wont be prepared, wont have defensive assets in place, and will be on a low level of alert.
This is the crux of the surprise attack, if the enemy were prepared, we would attack a different way eh? or not attack at all.
Now response WILL be slow, for one good reason.
How many US invasions have you had? Would you recognize one? Would you quickly be on the phone to the local base commander telling him so? Chances are not. And if you were, he probably wouldnt talk to you, cause he is a busy man, and will wait for word from official channels ie the cops.
So things are chaotic for awhile. Alot of people are running around, some with guns, some in uniform. The base commander is waiting for field intelligence, if he is awake at all. Eventually the local cops will realise they are against a too well organized enemy, and will call in support from the National Guard, or a Regular Army Base. They arent home though are they? they are out or away on liberty. So it takes time to assemble troops. In that time, a well organised enemy is already knocking down your gates, and troops are fanning across your perimeters ready to turn people into lunch meat.
Dont overestimate your own response time to an emergency that has never taken place before in recent memory on US soil, atleast not with ground troops.
As to a retalitory nuclear strike from the US so quickly, id be doubtful of that. FOr various reasons some mentioned by others of the force for force policies of some politicians, it usually depends on the thoughts of the man at the desk at the time. You would have atleast 24 hours before a response would become official from the US regarding a nuclear strike. Information doesnt flow that fast(alot of desk drivers between grunt and president), and neither do tough decisions.
Also it is hard to block access to armor units, as they are all terrain vehicles plus a bit more. Road blocked? go through a building then through a few hundred backyards. Once the armor is out in the open, even better luck blocking access, tanks were built for ploughing over barbed wire at 40mph.
Now someone mentioned that superpowers who try to exert pressure from afar usually failed, which is why i mentioned perhaps an allie in south america, or cuba, who could exert diversionary force on another front. Allied missions from afar do sometimes work well, World War 1, World War 2, Korean War, GulfWar, Bosnia, Kosovo. These are all examples where the US has been successfull in influencing an area through alliegences and munitions. And korea did require a huge movement of troops over the ocean, from the US to korea.
Now the NRA are an element, but unless you have anti tank weapons, you will have difficulties stopping APC's and medium armor once they emerge from the airport. Not even the US is THAT liberal with weapons:) I work with a few people who wish it were otherwise.
Now Goosekirk had some good criticism's about our 'lil' invasion, and they are noted. You are right, SAC would sure as hell notice the cargo planes, and thats an element that would require some thinking on, perhaps use commercial 747 cargo planes to deliver the vehicles. This would strike out private airfields, cargo planes can stop relatively quickly on a private field, 747's are another matter.
Now as to re-routing traffic, that could be accomplished one way, send troops before hand unarmed, and send your weapons along with your first wave, arming your already present troops.
This enables your troops to arrive over say a 12 hour period on a miriad of different flights, with various stop overs in different countries perhaps.
As to why using air landings at all, why not use everything at hand? The whole idea is to invade an enemy at as many points of entry as possible. Even if the air landed troops dont make it, they provide a great distraction for army groups until the heavy guns arrive.
Evading the US carriers as i said earlier would be almost impossible, but if the vehicles arrive on standard trade routes, using standard expected vehicles, you dont need to evade much at all.
Now as to Why China would invade? I dont think they will ever, or even think of it, if they were to invade anyone it would be siberia. I said i doubted they would invade in my previous post.
The concept behind the first post was to explain that an invasion could take place, not a total victory, that would require on the spot decisions regarding the actions of the US, and noone can say 100% exactly what the US would do in that situation.
Anyways I hope that answered some of criticisms out there, i expected them anyways, as the post wasnt written as a prophecy:) just a hypothetical
Insert something insightful here, or I'll insert something painful there.
A detection system based on civilian radio transmission isn't that much harder to stop.
On your own territiory: Require a military controlled switch installed in all civilian transmitters. Click - and no more civilian-assisted detection during war.
On enemy territory - bomb the "civilian" transmitters/power supplies along with the military ones. This is done anyway in order to stop the propaganda machine.
Actually Germany DID know that there was an invasion imminent, theres no way to hide that kind of massive military buildup and training from regular spys. The problem was they had know idea where on the French coast they would be landing and the Allies has a whole big disinformation campain going to confuse the Germans on that particular fact.
Well you mentioned that this would be highly unlikely but lets start the what if.
... and you thought the earth quake was bad .
what if China really dose invade Taiwan and the USA has a president who is committed to protecting Taiwan. so therefore military intervention is taken against China. to expel their forces from Taiwan . would be it not be expected to see some come of retaliation against the USA from China ?
or would it be a localized war just in Taiwan.
one thing is for sure if this was to happen memory prices will go sky high
music the paint
dancefloor the canvas
Music the Paint dancefloor the canvas your body the brush
Well, this is the old US force propaganda to have more money from the US govt. My suggestions are: - stop to hate the others - begin to have cultural relationships with the others. Let them to came here and you to go there, with respect to the other cultures. - Throw away all nuclear weapons. They can only destroy the world, not defend you...
Power Projection.
Perhaps the Chinese do not have the experience, but the invasion of Taiwan would be a matter of reaching ~80 miles for them, not really a projection, versus reaching ~7000 miles for the US. The Chinese would be able to use ground-based planes and helicopters to cross the strait, and small craft to sail it in a couple of hourse, while the US forces would be limited to carrier-based planes and heavy ships that would take about a week to arrive from San Diego.
People should not fear their government. Governments should fear their people.
Welcome in Europe =) Just not sell weapons to poor lands and you have cutted down to half the number of wars in the world
I heard about some systems able to detect stealths being produced in Czech Republic (during Cold war, I'm not sure about recent development). It was called Tamara, and about 10 such systems were exported abroad (Russia and some other countries). It works as a passive system, using data from multiple detectors (detector has size of one large car). I heard, that if you put 3 those systems in the corners of Czechia (300km distance), you could trace airplanes in the whole Europe (partly because a very suitable terrain).
Most people focus on Military. But the most interest point is: Why would an American stealthy go bombing the Chinese? The American have a weapon million time bigger than the stealthy, i.e. WTO.
Japanese tried to bomb China and use bacteria weapon, they didn't win. U.S. bombed the vietnam and they didn't win either. Thirty years after the pearl harbour, Japanese go buy land in Hawaii and live happily ever after, and Americans start investing the vietnam, say Coca cola and something else.
end off-topic
The stealthy is just too big a object in the air to fly un-noticed. If the Chinese can figure out something like this, sooner or later, Russian and cubans can have the same findings too. So the U.S. government should improve their stealthy technology before they put their young pilot to combat and hoping that they ARE invisible.
why all this fuss about stealth technology ?
.. ill let them know your where you are at. just as soon as i get this damn gun unmounted from this plane . oh buy the way where is the ammo stored for this sucker ???"
we should just forget about it all and start making more planes like the A-10
this is truly a remarkable aircraft and should be a refrence for all engineers.
it has to be one of the hardest planes to knock out of the sky since all sytems are redudant and it can fly home on one engine . the cockpit area that the pilot sits in is protected by titanium armor.
the sheer amount of weapons the thing can be equipped with is totally devastating and we cant forget about the prize possesion of the A-10
the GAU 8 AVENGER near 8000 rpm minute of depleted uranium shells the size of coke bottles .
this gun is not only good for anti tank but anti helicopter and antipersonal and anti any thing that just so happens to remain in its sight for a moment to long .
yep all planes and tanks should be equipped with the GAU 8 .
i wished i had been in the area where that A 10 crashed at i would have been the first on the scene with a cutting torch and tool box .
A-10 pilot : "help me i think i have several broken bones."
ME:" heres some hot chocolate buddy
music the paint
dancefloor the canvas
Music the Paint dancefloor the canvas your body the brush
Maybe you should think before you write yourself!
You guys really think that every country, except the U.S., is a hostile enemy. You are not _the_ goodguy. Every country has done good and bad things. Remember the American atrocities in Korea, where the U.S. soldiers massacred defenseless innocent women and children under a bridge? Maybe it IS a good thing to shoot down your planes, it depends on the situation. Please reset your brainwashed grey mass.
Invasion form afar is exceedingly difficult. The argentinian armed forces were not that hard to overwhelm, but to get men and materials down that far was a major headache. Also with out lack of strategic aircraft carriers and only having smaller tactical ones with harriers compounded the problem. Air superiority was ciritcal and a few exocet missile did wreak havoc on our ships. Brad
You capitalist pig dogs you will all suffer. Our new weapons will take us to world domination so you can all eat noodles and practice ti chi! Hung Lo Bum Suk
Lemme guess, you're pink, right?
You don't happen to be Tom Clancy incognito?
:)
sorry couldn't resist
V
Great, we've all read the same lousy Tom Clancy novels and other warp0rn. And there are about three posters in this entire thread that actually know something about PCL/Bistatic Radar (and I am not one of them).
This is old, old stuff--researchers in the UK tracked commercial aircraft over Britain in the 1970s using ambient radiation from TV and radio broadcasts. The problem then (and now) is processing--they collected data for a few days, and then spent months separating signal from noise, so it was not quite suited for acquiring a targeting solution 8-p.
Processing power has come a long way--a good-sized van full of computers would probably suffice. But for a PCL-based system to actually provide a targeting solution on a stealthy aircraft (with an RCS well below one foot--real experts would be talking about dB), you probably will need dedicated emitters. They can be remoted, and they can be numerous and redundant and therefore relatively impervious to jamming and antiradiation missiles, but it won't be cheap, and it is not going to happen in China anytime in the next 10 years.
When you read these kind of stories, you should be leery of assertions that a theoretical capability=a weapon=combat capability. China has always done well with pure science, and incredibly poorly at applied military science, and poorer still at turing a technology into a military capability.
Anyway, it's always more interesting to look less at what such pieces assert, and more at why it was leaked now--my guess is that some funding decisions are going to be made soon so they are pumping up the China threat again. You don't have to like China, but trying to paint them as a new USSR is laughable--the dog just doesn't hunt. And we are winning--just visit the place and you will see how much peaceful evolution is working.
---
Not being a Geography-buff, I don't know the countries... But there's that 7 mile gap between Russia and Alaska... Something "straights". So long as they secured that corridor, they'ed have a very efficient way of moving troops to this side of the Pacific.
;)
Of course, they'ed have to go through Canada prior to getting at us...
The real difficult point is the receivers themselves, and with just about everything getting a DSP in it these days it is rapidly becoming a software issue instead of a hardware issue. We all know what that means...
--
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
While this technology may 'detect the presence' of a plane or stealth plane, it is NOT going to give a precise location. The computer in the F-22 guides the pilot by giving him a path to fly that shows the enemy his smallest RCS (radar cross section). China most likely knows where its tracking systems are weakest and install these 'detectors' in those spots. Knowing a plane is 'out there' and hitting that plane are two completely seperate issues. good luck using this new tech to actually 'take down' an F-22. FYI, ever hear of 'phase cancellation'? the F-22 has a trick up its sleeve that few discuss if any. Try locking on with radar when your signal is getting phase cancellation.....
Subotai says, here is the way to do it.
Dec 1, 2000
China announces that as a result of the right wing US congress failing to approve WTO entry provisions, China is opening its borders and providing ships to anybody in China who wishes to emigrate to the US.
Two weeks prior to this, record numbers of Chinese freighters dock in Western Mexico (baja) ports.
Dec 8, 2000
A flotilla of 150 freighters and similar size ships leave China towards the US supposedly carrying immigrants.
US detects the flotilla and dispatches all available Navy and Coast Guard ships to intercept the ships.
Dec 12, 2000
Chinese flotilla passes Hawaii. Several minisubs detach from underneath the freighters. As they pass SOSUS arrays near Hawaii several ships catch fire and sink. Timed bombs are dropped into the water near SOSUS arrays.
December 14, 2000
US forces intercept the Chinese flotilla. They discover that some ships are empty except for a crew. When US forces board, the ships detonate damaging the boarding ship. Other ships are full of Chinese marines who kill the boarders and then capture the boarding ships. Several ships appear to be just carrying immigrants. However, soon after stopping these ships the boarding ship explodes after having limpet mines attached to it by divers.
The bombs at the SOSUS arrays are detonated wiping out a large area of coverage.
At airports on the west coast, in LA, San Diego, San Francisco and Phoenix, regularly scheduled Chinese airlines crash, taking out runways and control towers. In San Diego, the airline misses the civilian airport and crashes at the Naval Air Station.
As the ruccus on the surface starts, approximately 30 Chinese subs race from underneath the freighters. Some subs attack the larger surface vessels while others race to the East.
Chinese minisubs detonate themselves in the mouth of Pearl underneath incoming ships, blocking the harbor mouth.
In Mexico, the Chinese freighters crews arm themselves and set up a perimeter around the docks. The freighters start to disgorge fighters, helicopters, tanks and infantry. This is the Eighth Route Army of the PLA. The Mexican government is letting this take place in exchange for a gift to be received in a few days. The PLA begins to move out.
In the US, Chinese, instigated by infiltrators begins to riot against US aggression against peaceful immigrants.
In California, several large media outlets are taken over by rioters.
December 15, 2000
Chinese forces reach the border in Arizona, New Mexico and California. The border outposts are destroyed. In the border towns, announcements of this are quickly sent out, resulting in a crush of immigration at the border.
Chinese subs reach San Diego and detonate torpedos at the sub entry tunnels. Several carriers and the Airbase are hit with sea launched cruise missiles. Chinese subs do the same at Bremerhaven, Washington.
Between the port attacks and freighter decoys, half of the US Navy is out of action.
December 16, 2000
Broadcasts in Spanish and English tell the people in the US that they will only be harmed if they resist. They encourage all who wish to take up arms against the racist WAP dominated US government.
A division of the Eighth Route army seizes Los Alamos and White Sands and turns west. Tucson, Santa Fe and Phoenix declare themselves open cities.
Hidden Chinese units in LA, San Franciso and San Diego begin seizing critical facilities.
The main body of the Eight Route Army reaches San Diego where fighting with Navy stragglers begins.
Seeing the way things are going, Mexico, Brazil, Chile and Argentina Russia, declare themselves to be Chinese Allies. 2 mexican army divisions occupy Phoenix and Santa Fe. A third division heads to San Diego.
China capture San Diego and LA quickly falls.
December 18, 2000
China captures San Francisco.
December 25, 2000
China announces that California, Arizona and New Mexico have been pacified and are now part of the new SouthWestern Special Administrative Region. Other states who wish, may also join. No one will be persecuted for beliefs or opinion, however opposition to the Chinese government will be dealt with strongly. The border with Mexico is reestablished, however China sets an agreement to allow Mexicans and other Latin Nationals to work in the US.
With Silicon Valley gone, the US returns to being a largely agrarian nation. The new Southwest becomes extemely profitable and other states soon begin to join.
"The only way to catch tiger cubs is to go into the tiger's den."
Passing EM thru something and watching what changes happen to that EM yields more information than most would ever dream of. Of course you don't always have to generate the EM from your own reference source, you can always use what's already there and do it passively. The science of turning these changes into useful information is what will be the end of the last vestiges of privacy for all mankind and that science has already progressed to a horrific state of perfection. Folks, don't bother waking up now, you've already slept way too long and it's over.
Indeed - that is why the Indian navy is buying up an old Soviet Aircraft carrier.
They also were at a loss for satellite imagery during the recent border skirmish with Pakistan and are going to work at orbiting their own imaging satellites.
China has it's own capabilities - usually underestimated in my opinion. China is not our friend - they are competition in many venues.
That is the REAL world - being the bigest badest guy on the block(read planet) has it's advantages.
I'd rather be in that position personally. I KNOW the US isn't perfect, and is often a bully.(All you have to do is travel a little around the world to discover that.) You'll also discover that you have it better here than most places!
Have you compiled your kernel today??
I was in the military for a while and although I can't say what I know about our capabilities, I can tell you this...
1. Anything you see hyped as our "latest technology" like the F117s are already outdated and we already have weapons to counter that technology. Stealth has been in the works for over 20 yrs. The technologies hyped by the media are just PR to intimidate someone.
2. Often smaller less hyped technological advances are part of a much grander scheme which has much more military potential than most of the hyped ideas, I wish I could elaborate on this more.
3. The U.S. military although it has done some incredibly stupid things has also done some amazingly clever ploys. Imagine the U.S. has layed stealth out there and touted it as the best thing it has. Now China has a counter for it and is confident that can handle the best the U.S. has to offer, but suprise here come new technology in war time. Did you notice that the U.S. pulled out a few things in Desert Storm which had not been seen before? Since we were clearly dominating the war do you think we pulled out everything we could have?
The Allies sent every plane they had to clear the sky. If bombers had managed to get through it would have been difficult/imposible.
(recognition to the US troops who got stuck under heavy fire)
Weren't the stealth planes first developed in the mid 80's? That was more than a decade ago. Undoubtably the Skunkworks has developed something better than what we know about. Just because someone has the ability to detect stealth does not mean that they will detect it. It would take a fairly large undertaking to canvas the entire country of China to detect the few stealth aircraft. I think China has bigger problems to worry about than the US.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
I think it would take something like a month for your invasion fleet to cross the Pacific (after all the Chinese are going to have to commandeer a lot of civilian transports to move their invasion force and you probably want most of your troops landing at around the same time). Assuming they somehow evaded all those subs and surface ships we have out there, do you really think your initial wave of a few thousand Chinese with little in the way of heavy weaponry are still going to be alive and holding out? Even if our response is slow it ain't going to be that slow.
P.S. AFAIK the Chinese don't have a carrier so it would a bit difficult to use one to support the troops. The Chinese admit that they aren't going to be capable of anything but regional naval power until around 2050.
In my totally uninformed opinion Chinese invasion is pure fiction. Coincidentally, Larry Bond has a new book coming out called "Invasion" about this very topic.
This kind of sneak attack might work for a day or two, but then it would be crushed. You can land enough troops to take an airfield, but not enough to assault the neighboring military bases. More importantly, you cannot resupply them. Once surprise is lost you won't get any airplanes through. Light infantry don't require a great deal of supplies, true, but then again they would be carrying the same sorts of weapons as the police / national guard / hastily organized militias / etc.
They won't have tanks because they're too darned heavy. Even a 747 can only carry one or two main battle tanks. Remember the multi-month buildup to Operation Desert Storm? That was because they had to move the tanks by ship.
Sea transport will also be cut off pretty quickly once surprise is lost. Mr. Hagar did mention "you might even nuke pearl/guam in the first 24 hours of your attack." That IS what it would take - you'd have to knock out the U.S. Navy altogether. The reason we pay mongo $$$ for a huge navy is to prevent this sort of invasion. The problem with nuking the fleet in harbor: it's more or less been tried already:
"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."
Admiral Yamamoto in an interview with Shigeharu Matsumoto, a member of the Japanese Cabinet, 1940
The Japanese at the time had the world's third largest navy. They were at least an even match for the U.S. Pacific fleet. Currently the Chinese have pretty close to squat for a navy.
Hm, Poland 1939, Russia 1941, Hawaii 1941, Korea 1949
More importantly, three of these examples were military failures. Only the invasion of Poland was ultimately successful. The U.S. is much bigger; the Russian example is probably the best parallel.
I never said heavy armor on Commercial 747's, i said transportation of some light armored units in commercial 747 cargo planes. Hell you could even pull IFF transponders from 747's fit them to military cargo planes if you want to.
I didnt say for the aircraft not to use IFF transponders, but to make full use of them, travelling along standard routes for air traffic.
Hence its a surprise attack, not a surprise suicide.
Second, transporting armor in a car carrier is not going to be sunk if as far as everyone knows it has a legitimate manifest and is due to dock legally.
Yes the US would know that China would be massing vehicles at ports and airports by satellite data, but how many times has China had excercises near taiwan? Quite often. Especially involving army/navy amphibious deployments. Satellites are great for taking photos, but they dont tell you what the enemy intends or thinks 90% of the time.
Lastly, read the previous postings, and get the drift that i have all along said this is highly unlikely, highly difficult, that the plan has operational holes in it as all plans do, that its only a broad hypothetical concept.
I dont believe you have read the document and all the related posts that have added to the entire plan thoroughly. I have said a couple of times, the addition of a chemical or biological or nuclear element into the mix, would make events quite different, also added a diversionary force from a bordering country adding pressure as ive mentioned twice also.
So feel free to read the threads fully, instead of getting the gist, grunting, and clicking reply.
If you believe the US has absolutely no vulnerabilities at all on any border, I would politely suggest, you are deluded.
If you can think of a better operational concept, post it here, and then maybe we can pick holes in your plan.
Insert something insightful here, or I'll insert something painful there.
Such a system won't work in practice. Why? Because the first thing US air attacks do is blow up anything transmitting a communications signal. That's standard operating procedure. B2's fly too high for this system to work well, and the F117s simply aren't necessary for the first wave of Tomahawk attacks.
Do you know what the casualty rates were for D-Day? And that was for a force that didn't have to worry about spy sats giving the other guys 3 days notice you were coming.
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Clear, Dark Skies
Have any of you all ever actually seen a picture of the B-2, can you say streamlined and aerodynamic. You keep talking about how much turbulence the F-117 produces, well no shit look at it, but the B-2, produces almost no turbulence. Besided the fact that if we were going to nuke the shit out of a country, we would use the B-2's not the the F-117's (can you say greater payload=more nukes, 16 W-80's I think.)
And the fact that it doesn't matter if they can track the planes when they get over the country, by the time the B-2's get over the country its too late for that country, they just got ripped a few dozen new ones.
I really wish you all would stop commenting on shit you have absolutely no clue about.
A Bugg
Stealth technology as it is currently deployed is optimized to hide from widely deployed military radars. Nobody ever said there's no way to detect the planes. Aviation Week reported within the last year that some government contractor near D.C. had built a 100% passive system (a bunch of antennas hooked up to a computer) that was tracking flights taking off from BWI and National using radiation in the air and location and power data on civilian FM and TV transmitters. The article mentioned that this technology could track current stealth planes too. Actually, WWII radars can track stealth planes. Low power radar = reflected High power radar = absorbed It's all in the reciever. In other words, don't look for it in the field anytime soon.