People in Europe wonder how Bush got elected, you've just shown them exactly why. This foul mouth, uneducated smuck here is a prime example (that being you). Can't debate anything without throwing names around like fool, stupid, dumbass, and other foul language. You've really shown yourself to be a class act.:)
The guy was an IDIOT and got what he deserved because (something you don't seem to understand) is that he LACKED common sense. When you are done jumping around and screaming your little head off, go think about that. You are just some loud mouthed twit who probably spends their entire day (judging from your history) on slashdot instead of doing real work. Probably 14 or something, go ask your mommy for some soap to clean out your mouth!:)
LOL.. you still don't get it!:) You haven't backed anything up. Go look at the Ohio Secretary of State site and you'll quickly figure out there are laws on the side of business too. I don't think EITHER of us are wrong or right. We have different opinions and are unlikely to see eye to eye. You have the EXACT same point of view as that Sikh guy that was on CNN Sunday night bitching about having his turban searched at the airport. The TSA were very respectful of his religion, but were not going to put passengers at risk because he could easily have something consealed in the turban. Its not because he was wearing a turban, but he was implying that it was. If you try to walk through the airport with a big texas or mexican hat on, do you really think the airport security guys aren't going to ask you to take it off? However, this guy was going on and on and on about his rights. There is a basic level of common sense thats lacking.
I think it would be very entertaining to see this guy go up in front of Judge Judy, heck, would be interesting to see you go up in front of Judge Judy! Slap you with a side of common sense!:) Now go find something more constructive to do than argue with me. Good night!
"Because he shouldn't have to stop and deal with their unreasonable request."
Its not an unreasonable request. Why is it unreasonable (actually give a reason instead of I did nothing wrong).
"Thanks for making my point. Nothing to steal, so why do I have to show them anything. Duh!?"
You are an idiot! But thanks for agreeing with my point. There is no reason to look in the bag, so no harm in showing the receipt!:)
"Actually there's a third if you could read, it's because you're a law abiding citizen and you've done nothing wrong. Again, I listed the shopkeeper's priveledge conditions and NONE were met. You've lost the argument for the 30th time."
LOL. Dude you pulled that list out of your ass! Go do some proper research, or provide the URL for where you got it. It doesn't sync up with the state's interpretation of it:) Check the Ohio Secretary of State website:)
"I've done it several times as I posted on a different thread in this topic. It made the little old lady mad. She shouted at me that she'd call security and I told her to go ahead and do it. Nothing happened. HAHAHAHAHA!!! I guess I already met this condition and you were defeated!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"
Well we just caught you in a lie! If you look at your Sam's Club membership agreement, you will see you are LEGALLY BOUND by CONTRACT to hand over your receipt. If you did that, the little old lady would have had security roll back the camera, obtain your ID from the register you paid at, and discontinue your Sam's Club membership. You are full of it!:)
LOL. Now the speed cameras are giving too much POWER to the government. Give it up, you lost that argument.
If the guy wasn't RUSHING out the door, why did he not simply discuss his RIGHT TO REFUSE to show the receipt to the employee? I bet he got into that car pretty quickly. Go read the blog and get your facts straight!:)
Perhaps you have not shopped at one of these establishments before? There is NOTHING between the registers and the door, no merchandise to steal. So there is no reason (except for maybe employee theft) or if you went back into the store after checking out, for them to check your bag. Anytime I've shopped at Best Buy, they just want to see that the receipt has today's date, recent timestamp and send you on your way. You don't have to give them the bag, if it keeps them happy, no harm in that, you've hardly been VIOLATED because they looked in the bag. There are two reasons you don't want them to look in the bag (a) you stole something, (b) they forgot to ring something up (same as stealing).
Actually you are WRONG about shop keepers privilege (btw. go learn to spell the word too kid), they do NOT need to have probable cause, they have to have REASONABLE grounds. There is a BIG difference. REASONABLE grounds is very subjective, I'm willing to bet that a judget is going to see (a) failure to show receipt, (b) failure to stop and talk to the employee, (c) attempted to flee the scene (when he knew the store employee had an issue). These are all things a real shop lifter would do, that gives them reasonable grounds to suspect the guy.
I want to see you go to Sam's Club and refuse to show your receipt. Try it!:) You are an idiot though, seriously jumping to the extreme every time. There is a big difference between letting them inspect the RECEIPT and a strip search. Although your preoccupation with peoples butt cheeks, maybe you'd like it!:)
The fact that 98% of people on SLASHDOT disagree with me, makes you more of a sheep no? While your refusing to hand over your receipt, why not refuse to hand your passport over at the airport, just give them your name! If you think you are less free because you've extended a courtesy to the store by letting them verify you are a customer and not a thief, then you live in a very sad little world. Wait though, if it was YOUR store, you'd be searching people all the time, so you wouldn't lose money!:)
If you don't like the policy don't shop there. I bet you hand over your receipt and open the bag too:) They actually MET all the conditions to invoke shop keepers privilege, actually go look it up instead of LYING ABOUT IT. He paid for his purchase, he was ASKED to show proof of purchase and HE FAILED to do so. He WALKED OUT, the employee ASKED him to come back, he did not respond. From his own admission he KNEW exactly what was going on. Grounds for suspicious behavior are very subjective, but the fact that the cop asked why he simply didn't show his receipt, would indicate that its not unreasonable.
The fire lane was a joke, you seem to be slightly wound a little too tight to get it?:)
You idiots just pick the wrong fights, showing your receipt to the security guy is just a common courtesy. The poor kid is making what $8/hr, if you steal something its probably going to come out of his paycheck, so why give the guy a hard time? One reason you are just a P-R-I-C-K on a little power trip. I think its hilarious that this guy got smacked down for acting like that, serves him right!:)
btw. you seemed to be awfully preoccupied with peoples butt checks.. whats up with that?
LOL. All you have done is personally attack people all day long. You don't have a point, you are just plain wrong!:)
I pity poor sods like you. This guy was an idiot PLAIN and SIMPLE. Go look up shop keepers privilege, then forget that its circuit city trying to put down the man for a minute. The store has the RIGHT to ASK for the receipt. You have the right to REFUSE to show them the receipt. At that point, to the store employee it was a bit suspicious. The individual in question though kept on walking, the employee pursued them, the guy just got in the car. At that point, no matter what way you want to try to spin it, it LOOKS SUSPICIOUS. A normal person (not committing SHOPLIFTING) wouldn't behave in this manner. If you think its perfectly fine, then I CHALLENGE you to try the same thing, see how far you get. Under shop keepers privilege, this guy has given them enough of a REASON, to think something is not right. At that point (no matter how much you want to complain about it), they have the right to detain the guy for 10 minutes to conduct an investigation. He however IMPEEDED their ability to do the investigation. Answer this, if he was so worried about his rights (other than to just cause trouble), why didn't he simply turn around and address the issue with the employee?
If the guy was SOOOOOOOO couragous, why didn't he duke it out with the employee and defend his rights? Nope he got in the car and tried to flee the scene like.. your favourite WORD.. a coward!:)
There is nothing difficult about this, you know it and I know it, the guy handled this all wrong, ticked off the police and I'm willing to bet his blog entry is probably not the full story with the police either. The guy was an IDIOT and got what he deserved. Just like you and your death threats.
Watch out for those guys with the black suits!!!:)
Alright, you are still MISSING THE POINT HERE. I understand what you are saying, the store has the right to ASK to see the receipt, and you have the right to refuse. What you don't seem to get is that there is no reason to refuse showing them the receipt. There is no HARM in it. It takes what, 10 seconds, they looked it over and send you on your way. I checked out shopkeepers privilege and guess what, Circuit City HAS the right to detain someone for about 10 minutes to conduct an investigation when there is reasonable suspicion. There is REASONABLE suspicion here, because the guy did a series of STUPID things. He didn't show his proof of purchase, he opted to walk right out the door instead of resolving the matter and he got into a waiting car. Which btw, if it was parked in front of Circuit City, was more than likely parked illegally as that is a fire lane!:)
No matter what way you nuts want to try to spin it, its somewhat suspicious. Even the police officer asked why he simply didn't show his receipt. I'd bet that a judge is going to look at the fact that he didn't show his receipt and that he walked off without resolving the situation and attempted to flee the scene, as reasonable suspicion. Reasonable force is also permitted (per shop keepers privilege) but the individual has to be detained on or near premises. You should also be aware that there are a number of state and local laws called shoplifting statutes that provide additional powers to the shop owners.
So lets make sure you are LISTENING. The POINT is that by not sticking around, and by getting into the car when the employee was pursuing him (obviously there was a problem), he created reasonable suspicion on HIMSELF. Had he simply said "I have the right to refuse to show you the receipt", they could have worked it out, maybe involving the police, but I'm sure it would have had a better outcome. So back to my original point.. HE ACTED SUSPICIOUSLY and got himself into this mess. This has NOTHING to do with your right to do this and that, it has everything to do with plain and simple common sense (or the massive LACK of it).
Even if the guy was an idiot, running the speed cameras say once a week, at $150 / violation. Sooner or later, he is going to rack up enough points to make his insurance too expensive, his car impounded and/or his license suspended. Either way he is going to end up in front of a judge who would hopefully smack some sense into the guy. So the speed cameras are BETTER than no speed cameras, no matter what why you try to spin it!:)
I responded by continuing to walk past him while saying, "No thank you." -- this to me is rushing out the door, he didn't even stop or turn in the guys direction. Not making stuff up, so get your facts straight. There is no flaw in my logic:) You hand over the receipt, they have now seen the proof of purchase, you are not a shop lifter, they have no reason to look at the bag. In fact, I've shopped at Best Buy many times and they just look at the receipt and say thanks.
Since you don't think he was acting suspicious, tell me what the harm is in letting them see the receipt? The guy was being a smart ass, he knew damn well what would happen if he didn't show his receipt. If you don't think he was being a smart ass, then explain the tone of his writing where he says :
Of course I knew what this was about, but I played dumb and pretended that I didn't know what the problem was. I wanted to give Joe the chance to explain what all the fuss was for.
Showing the receipt is proof enough, there isn't a sane reason for NOT showing your receipt, if there is.. other than "FREEDOM", which is complete BS. You are no less free for showing the guy the receipt at Circuit City, if you think you are then your living in some sort of messed up reality!:)
Lets take a few steps back here. There is a guy outside a circuit city, a vehicle and two employees from the store. The employee asked the guy to show his receipt, the guy refused and exited the store to essentially a getaway car. If you think this is wrong, this is the guys own words:
As I headed towards the exit doors I passed a gentleman whose name I would later learn is Santura. As I began to walk towards the doors Santura said, "Sir, I need to examine your receipt." I responded by continuing to walk past him while saying, "No thank you."
As I walked through the double doors I heard Santura yelling for his manager behind me. My father and the family had the Buick pulled up waiting for me outside the doors to Circuit City. I opened the door and got into the back seat while Santura and his manager, whose name I have since learned is Joe Atha, came running up to the vehicle. I closed the door and as my father was just about to pull away the manager, Joe, yelled for us to stop. Of course I knew what this was about, but I played dumb and pretended that I didn't know what the problem was. I wanted to give Joe the chance to explain what all the fuss was for.
Just to clarify right, this guy wasn't asked to bend over for a bag search, the employee simply wanted to check his receipt. The store has the right to do that, the receipt is basically a sign saying I AM NOT A SHOP LIFTER (to the store). There is absolutely NO SANE REASON not to present your receipt when asked. You have the right to say no, but then you also have the obligation to prove that you are not a shop lifter. Whats the best way to do that? Run out of the store to a getaway car? You seem pretty smart, you and I both know thats not the right way to do it. If he had a legitimate reason to not present his receipt, he would have waited for the manager, or simply said something like "I checked out of register 4". But nope, the guy went out the door and jumped into a waiting car. There has to be a little bit of common sense here, that is just a tad bit suspicious no?
"I suppose a person is being discourteous if they don't submit to the baton and pepper spray?"
Depends, why did the officer feel the need to take out the baton and pepper spray? If the cop just jumps out of the car randomly at someone and whacks them with the baton, then doh, obviously something is wrong here. Unless of course you are a known criminal, the cop told you to halt and you started running. Unless the cop is on some kind of medication or just plain crazy (and I'm not saying there aren't totally screwed up police walking around), I'm saying thats not typically the norm. Having just an ounce of common sense when dealing with the police will keep you out of a lot of trouble.
Lets have a quick look at what the guy says about the cop:
Two minutes later Brooklyn, Ohio police officer Ernie Arroyo arrived on the scene. As I began to explain the story leading up to Joe Atha preventing my egress from the parking lot, officer Arroyo began to question why I refused to show my receipt in the first place. I explained that I lawfully purchased the contents in the bag and didn't feel that it was necessary for me to let a Circuit City employee inspect the bag as I left. Officer Arroyo disagreed. He claimed that stores have the right to inspect all receipts and all bags upon leaving their store.
The guy is saying that the employee wanted to inspect the bag. This is not the case though, the employee asked to see the receipt. The stores DO have the right to inspect all receipts, otherwise they would have no means of determining if someone had shop lifted something or not.. right? That is not unreasonable, and there is absolutely NO REASON for someone to refuse to show a receipt. Now, I could understand if the guy showed the receipt, and then he simply didn't want his bag inspected. Thats fine, he probably walked straight from the checkout to the door, so inspecting the bag after showing the receipt is questionable. But not showing the receipt implies they are hiding something.
See everyone wants to jump over the man supressing the little guy, sometimes the little guy is not entirely innocent. Perhaps you should READ the article again?:)
Wow... a real live crazy person!!! Who let you out of the looney bin?
Too bad you can't debate things in a sane manner without resorting to name calling and death threats.
However.. if someone wants an example of a crazy nutjob.. folks Darby here is a prime example!:)
Now here is the EXACT quote from the guys blog, kindly note sir that by this guys own admission there was no bag search requested, the employee simply asked to see his receipt.:
As I began to walk towards the doors Santura said, "Sir, I need to examine your receipt." I responded by continuing to walk past him while saying, "No thank you."
As I walked through the double doors I heard Santura yelling for his manager behind me. My father and the family had the Buick pulled up waiting for me outside the doors to Circuit City. I opened the door and got into the back seat while Santura and his manager, whose name I have since learned is Joe Atha, came running up to the vehicle. I closed the door and as my father was just about to pull away the manager, Joe, yelled for us to stop.
Now you say he was acting reasonable. You think you are a reasonable person, prove it. Instead of name calling, take your foot out of your mouth and explain how that employee is supposed to differentiate between how that customer acted and a shop lifter? Keep in mind it is highly unlikely that the employee can see every person walking through the checkouts. He entered the store of his own accord, he was aware of the stores policy of checking receipts on the way out, if he didn't like that, he didn't have to shop there.
btw. if you could clarify the death threat thing, reading your comments, definately looks like a death threat. Seems like you are throwing the coward label around for some reason, perhaps you have some kind of internal issue?:)
Nope you are missing the point. Speed cameras have signs indicating their presence. This near-accident occured in a location where there are NO SPEED CAMERAS. Had there been speed cameras, the guy (unless he is a complete idiot) would not have been speeding, because the one things people value the most if their hard earned cash!
Logic doesn't tell people speeding = ticket, logic tells people speeding = risk of ticket. If the person knows the city only has three patrols on duty at any particular time, the likelyhood of the police being right there is extremely slim. So their complete LACK of respect for other people, and their self-centered nature makes it alright for them to speed down the road however fast they like. It is the very nature of people that we need speed cameras. There is nothing wrong with speed cameras, and if you think they don't impact public safety, go look at the UK.
I think you need to re-read his blog. He wasn't refusing a random bag search, he was asked to present his receipt as he left the store. He said no thanks and continued walking. The guy was trying to be a smart ass, and he got nailed for it. If it was really about his rights, he would have stopped and made a big deal out of it. But he didn't he left the store in a suspicious manner. That employee had the right to ask for a proof of purchase, its a simple security check. You are leaving the store with potentially thousands of dollars of merchandise, you show the receipt. Now had he shown the receipt and they demanded to search his bag, that is then debatable. He shouldn't have rushed out of the store though without resolving the situation, that is suspicious.
You seem like a smart person, think about it for a second. If you were going to shop lift from the store, what would you do? You would enter the store with a circuit city bag in your pocket. You would put the merchandise in the circuit city bag, and then you would walk out the door. When the security guy asks you to present your receipt, you say NO THANKS, and rush out the door, into a waiting car. Those stores have an open gangway between the exit and the registers and the store. Except for this rather bizarre case, most people would present the receipt. Heck, its usually a good idea to show the guy the receipt on your way out so if they attempt to tackle you in the parking lot later, you can say, well I did show the guy the receipt and sue the pants off them. The thing is, thats not what the guy did. He acted in a manner that a shoplifter would act.
How would you propose that the store prevent theft (which would result in everyone else paying for the stuff stolen in the long run), if not for checking the receipt?
There is a serious lack of common sense here. There is nothing wrong with being courtious to the police. This guy was acting suspiciously, if you read his blog, he was asked for his license BEFORE the store had confirmed nothing was stolen. So it was likely the officer wanted to get his license to see if he had any prior shop lifting offenses.
Why are you folks so afraid? The police officer isn't pointing the gun to your head, or acting crazy, why be discourtious? You had over your license to the officer is saying, look I am proving to you this is who I really am. These police have to deal with some really screwed up people on a daily basis, there is no need to try to make matters worse. Thats COMMON SENSE!
This is just like those Islamic guys who are bitching about having their turbins searched at the airport. The TSA give them a private area to remove it if necessary, and you can bet your life, if anyone tried to walk through the airport wearing a giant texas cowboy hat, they'd be asked to remove it when they walked through security -- COMMON SENSE!
Now there is nothing wrong with standing up for your rights, but there is a balance. You are not giving up any rights when you identify yourself to the police. By not identifying yourself properly to the police, you are simply making their job harder and casting suspicion on yourself.
Now on the other hand, if the police come to your house, wanting to arrest you without a warrant. Thats a time to stand up and make a fuss. But come on, this guy could have saved everyone some hassle by acting with common sense, unfortunately he seems to not be alone with the folks that LACK IT!
More of a low tolerance for stupidity!:) I'd lump this guy in with the same folks who think its funny to answer YES to the "Are you a terrorist?" question at the airport, and then wonder why they get detained, miss their flight and get tossed on a no fly list. Then turn around and scream that their civil rights have been messed with.
Read his blog and see what he did.
a) He paid
b) He was asked for his receipt at the door
c) He said "No Thanks" and the Rushed out the door
d) Per his blog there was a running car waiting for him outside the store entrance
e) He jumped in the car and tried to drive off
How is the employee expected to determine that this guy is NOT a shop lifter? Most of those guys at the door are also greeters, so depending on how busy the store is they are watching people enter the store and leave the store at the same time. Its very possible that the employee didn't see the guy at the checkout.
People seem to be very quick to blame the store, but this guy acted suspiciously. He could have easily refused to show the contents of the bag, but still handed the guy the receipt, he could have waited for a manager to come and deal with the situation, but no, he rushed out the door.
There is a flaw with your logic though. A speed camera is there 24/7/365. If someone IS speeding, they WILL get a fine, end of story. The guy was willing to risk it because the probability of a police car on patrol right there was pretty low, and that road is pretty straight, so if there was one, chances are he could see it before they'd get a good radar reading. The speed camera is there constantly, if he risks it, he gets a ticket. If the speed cameras are strategically located on that road, it'd be impossible to speed on it without getting caught. The risk goes from moderate to a certainty. Even if the guy is stupid, by the time he has handed over a few hundred dollars in fines, he'll eventually get the message or he won't be able to afford to buy gas!
The guy buying from Circuit City though was acting suspiciously, so the store employees had the right to try to keep him there until the authorities arrived. The police officer, well thats probably a legal issue, I could easily see though that a cop being dispatched because some idiot wouldn't show his receipt and ran to a waiting car, wouldn't exactly be amused.
Well so much for folks having common sense. There is a big leap between co-operating with police and installing cameras in your home. This boils down to common sense. Something many folks appear to be lacking. However, since you want to discuss speeding, let me give you a prime example.
There is a 2 mile stretch of road here in a shopping district thats got a speed limit of 25 mph. The police don't have the resources (or the inclination) to patrol it, so folks do pretty much whatever they want. I typically see people doing 50 - 60 mph, in a 25 mph zone. This is a road with hundreds of shops, a skate park for kids and a rec center. The other day, a bloke in a pickup truck was driving about 60 mph down this road, passed me (why yes I was perhaps travelling at 27 mph - should I be busted, technically yes, common sense wise.. probably not), he was so busy on his cell phone that he didn't notice the red light, or the kid on a bike and mother / baby stroller behind her. He barely stopped, running the light and missing the kid by a few inches.
The problem here is this could be anyone, your mom, your dad, your uncle, Timmy the store manager. These people aren't criminals, but sometimes they lack common sense, and more so, lack of respect / consideration for others. That guy in that truck was probably too preoccupied about getting his burger from McDonalds and back to work, that he felt the need to endanger, not only himself, but countless other innocent people (other motorists, kids crossing the street etc).
Sometimes it is necessary, for the public safety of everyone else, to put measures in place that enforce laws, that you might seem to think is perfectly ok to violate because its necessary for free society. Speed cameras for example, would have caught someone doing 9 - 10 mph over the speed limit, high enough to discount someone who simply gave their car a little too much gas, but low enough to catch the violators. Now, the next time they are driving down the road, they remember the $150 fine they had to pay, and the extra $50/month they are paying in car insurance, and the fact that the mrs won't let him play golf on the weekends any more because he can't afford it.
With your attitude, there would be no speed cameras, the police might patrol the street a few times a day, and some poor innocent kid is going to get their brains spread over the street. What if that poor kid is your brother, sister or cousin? Then those speed cameras might not be so bad after all. As you suggest, perhaps we should just let folks murder each other, and not bother reporting information on such crimes, you know because we shouldn't co-operate with police.
The guy buying stuff from Circuit City exercised extremely poor judgement and a massive lack of common sense, and got what he deserved.
This guy went around things the wrong way. Instead of talking with the employee who wanted to inspect his bag, he left the store and got into a waiting car. To any reasonable person, that is going to look just a little suspicious. If you just purchased something legitimately, you have nothing to hide, so just let them check and be on your way. If you really have a problem with it, wait until the manager arrives, tell the manager what register you checked out from, and they can confirm that you purchased it legitimately. Thats not what this guy did. He took off out of the store in a hurry, which regardless of how innocent he may have been, still looks suspicious. Even in his blog entry he mentions that he "acts dumb", this is going to come around and bite him.
At this point his very actions have given the employee grounds that he maybe a shop lifter, I'm not a lawyer but there is probably grounds there for detaining the guy until the police show up. Remember we're also just getting his point of view, police officers have a pretty high-stress job, they don't need idiots making their day worse. I'm sure that police officer had better things to be doing than getting dispatched to a moran outside of circuit city. People who have nothing to hide, once again, co-operate with the police. The only people who don't co-operate with police are criminals. I understand that this will spark off the civil rights people, but there is also a degree of common sense that everyone seems to be lacking these days. Common sense tells you, that I purchased these items, the guy at the store is just doing his job, just co-operate. Common sense also probably told the officer that someone needed to teach this guy a lesson and tossing him in jail probably should have done that!
I bet this guy is a trip at Sam's Club, what about the airport?:)
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The guy was an IDIOT and got what he deserved because (something you don't seem to understand) is that he LACKED common sense. When you are done jumping around and screaming your little head off, go think about that. You are just some loud mouthed twit who probably spends their entire day (judging from your history) on slashdot instead of doing real work. Probably 14 or something, go ask your mommy for some soap to clean out your mouth! :)
I think it would be very entertaining to see this guy go up in front of Judge Judy, heck, would be interesting to see you go up in front of Judge Judy! Slap you with a side of common sense! :) Now go find something more constructive to do than argue with me. Good night!
LOL. Caught you out twice now.. give it up kid. :)
Its not an unreasonable request. Why is it unreasonable (actually give a reason instead of I did nothing wrong).
"Thanks for making my point. Nothing to steal, so why do I have to show them anything. Duh!?"
You are an idiot! But thanks for agreeing with my point. There is no reason to look in the bag, so no harm in showing the receipt! :)
"Actually there's a third if you could read, it's because you're a law abiding citizen and you've done nothing wrong. Again, I listed the shopkeeper's priveledge conditions and NONE were met. You've lost the argument for the 30th time."
LOL. Dude you pulled that list out of your ass! Go do some proper research, or provide the URL for where you got it. It doesn't sync up with the state's interpretation of it :) Check the Ohio Secretary of State website :)
"I've done it several times as I posted on a different thread in this topic. It made the little old lady mad. She shouted at me that she'd call security and I told her to go ahead and do it. Nothing happened. HAHAHAHAHA!!! I guess I already met this condition and you were defeated!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"
Well we just caught you in a lie! If you look at your Sam's Club membership agreement, you will see you are LEGALLY BOUND by CONTRACT to hand over your receipt. If you did that, the little old lady would have had security roll back the camera, obtain your ID from the register you paid at, and discontinue your Sam's Club membership. You are full of it! :)
If the guy wasn't RUSHING out the door, why did he not simply discuss his RIGHT TO REFUSE to show the receipt to the employee? I bet he got into that car pretty quickly. Go read the blog and get your facts straight! :)
Perhaps you have not shopped at one of these establishments before? There is NOTHING between the registers and the door, no merchandise to steal. So there is no reason (except for maybe employee theft) or if you went back into the store after checking out, for them to check your bag. Anytime I've shopped at Best Buy, they just want to see that the receipt has today's date, recent timestamp and send you on your way. You don't have to give them the bag, if it keeps them happy, no harm in that, you've hardly been VIOLATED because they looked in the bag. There are two reasons you don't want them to look in the bag (a) you stole something, (b) they forgot to ring something up (same as stealing).
Actually you are WRONG about shop keepers privilege (btw. go learn to spell the word too kid), they do NOT need to have probable cause, they have to have REASONABLE grounds. There is a BIG difference. REASONABLE grounds is very subjective, I'm willing to bet that a judget is going to see (a) failure to show receipt, (b) failure to stop and talk to the employee, (c) attempted to flee the scene (when he knew the store employee had an issue). These are all things a real shop lifter would do, that gives them reasonable grounds to suspect the guy.
I want to see you go to Sam's Club and refuse to show your receipt. Try it! :) You are an idiot though, seriously jumping to the extreme every time. There is a big difference between letting them inspect the RECEIPT and a strip search. Although your preoccupation with peoples butt cheeks, maybe you'd like it! :)
The fact that 98% of people on SLASHDOT disagree with me, makes you more of a sheep no? While your refusing to hand over your receipt, why not refuse to hand your passport over at the airport, just give them your name! If you think you are less free because you've extended a courtesy to the store by letting them verify you are a customer and not a thief, then you live in a very sad little world. Wait though, if it was YOUR store, you'd be searching people all the time, so you wouldn't lose money! :)
The fire lane was a joke, you seem to be slightly wound a little too tight to get it? :)
You idiots just pick the wrong fights, showing your receipt to the security guy is just a common courtesy. The poor kid is making what $8/hr, if you steal something its probably going to come out of his paycheck, so why give the guy a hard time? One reason you are just a P-R-I-C-K on a little power trip. I think its hilarious that this guy got smacked down for acting like that, serves him right! :)
btw. you seemed to be awfully preoccupied with peoples butt checks.. whats up with that?
I pity poor sods like you. This guy was an idiot PLAIN and SIMPLE. Go look up shop keepers privilege, then forget that its circuit city trying to put down the man for a minute. The store has the RIGHT to ASK for the receipt. You have the right to REFUSE to show them the receipt. At that point, to the store employee it was a bit suspicious. The individual in question though kept on walking, the employee pursued them, the guy just got in the car. At that point, no matter what way you want to try to spin it, it LOOKS SUSPICIOUS. A normal person (not committing SHOPLIFTING) wouldn't behave in this manner. If you think its perfectly fine, then I CHALLENGE you to try the same thing, see how far you get. Under shop keepers privilege, this guy has given them enough of a REASON, to think something is not right. At that point (no matter how much you want to complain about it), they have the right to detain the guy for 10 minutes to conduct an investigation. He however IMPEEDED their ability to do the investigation. Answer this, if he was so worried about his rights (other than to just cause trouble), why didn't he simply turn around and address the issue with the employee?
If the guy was SOOOOOOOO couragous, why didn't he duke it out with the employee and defend his rights? Nope he got in the car and tried to flee the scene like.. your favourite WORD.. a coward! :)
There is nothing difficult about this, you know it and I know it, the guy handled this all wrong, ticked off the police and I'm willing to bet his blog entry is probably not the full story with the police either. The guy was an IDIOT and got what he deserved. Just like you and your death threats.
Watch out for those guys with the black suits!!! :)
No matter what way you nuts want to try to spin it, its somewhat suspicious. Even the police officer asked why he simply didn't show his receipt. I'd bet that a judge is going to look at the fact that he didn't show his receipt and that he walked off without resolving the situation and attempted to flee the scene, as reasonable suspicion. Reasonable force is also permitted (per shop keepers privilege) but the individual has to be detained on or near premises. You should also be aware that there are a number of state and local laws called shoplifting statutes that provide additional powers to the shop owners.
So lets make sure you are LISTENING. The POINT is that by not sticking around, and by getting into the car when the employee was pursuing him (obviously there was a problem), he created reasonable suspicion on HIMSELF. Had he simply said "I have the right to refuse to show you the receipt", they could have worked it out, maybe involving the police, but I'm sure it would have had a better outcome. So back to my original point.. HE ACTED SUSPICIOUSLY and got himself into this mess. This has NOTHING to do with your right to do this and that, it has everything to do with plain and simple common sense (or the massive LACK of it).
I responded by continuing to walk past him while saying, "No thank you." -- this to me is rushing out the door, he didn't even stop or turn in the guys direction. Not making stuff up, so get your facts straight. There is no flaw in my logic :) You hand over the receipt, they have now seen the proof of purchase, you are not a shop lifter, they have no reason to look at the bag. In fact, I've shopped at Best Buy many times and they just look at the receipt and say thanks.
Since you don't think he was acting suspicious, tell me what the harm is in letting them see the receipt? The guy was being a smart ass, he knew damn well what would happen if he didn't show his receipt. If you don't think he was being a smart ass, then explain the tone of his writing where he says :
Of course I knew what this was about, but I played dumb and pretended that I didn't know what the problem was. I wanted to give Joe the chance to explain what all the fuss was for.
Showing the receipt is proof enough, there isn't a sane reason for NOT showing your receipt, if there is.. other than "FREEDOM", which is complete BS. You are no less free for showing the guy the receipt at Circuit City, if you think you are then your living in some sort of messed up reality! :)
this guy is off his meds!
As I headed towards the exit doors I passed a gentleman whose name I would later learn is Santura. As I began to walk towards the doors Santura said, "Sir, I need to examine your receipt." I responded by continuing to walk past him while saying, "No thank you."
As I walked through the double doors I heard Santura yelling for his manager behind me. My father and the family had the Buick pulled up waiting for me outside the doors to Circuit City. I opened the door and got into the back seat while Santura and his manager, whose name I have since learned is Joe Atha, came running up to the vehicle. I closed the door and as my father was just about to pull away the manager, Joe, yelled for us to stop. Of course I knew what this was about, but I played dumb and pretended that I didn't know what the problem was. I wanted to give Joe the chance to explain what all the fuss was for.
Just to clarify right, this guy wasn't asked to bend over for a bag search, the employee simply wanted to check his receipt. The store has the right to do that, the receipt is basically a sign saying I AM NOT A SHOP LIFTER (to the store). There is absolutely NO SANE REASON not to present your receipt when asked. You have the right to say no, but then you also have the obligation to prove that you are not a shop lifter. Whats the best way to do that? Run out of the store to a getaway car? You seem pretty smart, you and I both know thats not the right way to do it. If he had a legitimate reason to not present his receipt, he would have waited for the manager, or simply said something like "I checked out of register 4". But nope, the guy went out the door and jumped into a waiting car. There has to be a little bit of common sense here, that is just a tad bit suspicious no?
"I suppose a person is being discourteous if they don't submit to the baton and pepper spray?"
Depends, why did the officer feel the need to take out the baton and pepper spray? If the cop just jumps out of the car randomly at someone and whacks them with the baton, then doh, obviously something is wrong here. Unless of course you are a known criminal, the cop told you to halt and you started running. Unless the cop is on some kind of medication or just plain crazy (and I'm not saying there aren't totally screwed up police walking around), I'm saying thats not typically the norm. Having just an ounce of common sense when dealing with the police will keep you out of a lot of trouble.
Lets have a quick look at what the guy says about the cop:
Two minutes later Brooklyn, Ohio police officer Ernie Arroyo arrived on the scene. As I began to explain the story leading up to Joe Atha preventing my egress from the parking lot, officer Arroyo began to question why I refused to show my receipt in the first place. I explained that I lawfully purchased the contents in the bag and didn't feel that it was necessary for me to let a Circuit City employee inspect the bag as I left. Officer Arroyo disagreed. He claimed that stores have the right to inspect all receipts and all bags upon leaving their store.
The guy is saying that the employee wanted to inspect the bag. This is not the case though, the employee asked to see the receipt. The stores DO have the right to inspect all receipts, otherwise they would have no means of determining if someone had shop lifted something or not.. right? That is not unreasonable, and there is absolutely NO REASON for someone to refuse to show a receipt. Now, I could understand if the guy showed the receipt, and then he simply didn't want his bag inspected. Thats fine, he probably walked straight from the checkout to the door, so inspecting the bag after showing the receipt is questionable. But not showing the receipt implies they are hiding something.
See everyone wants to jump over the man supressing the little guy, sometimes the little guy is not entirely innocent. Perhaps you should READ the article again? :)
Now here is the EXACT quote from the guys blog, kindly note sir that by this guys own admission there was no bag search requested, the employee simply asked to see his receipt.:
As I began to walk towards the doors Santura said, "Sir, I need to examine your receipt." I responded by continuing to walk past him while saying, "No thank you."
As I walked through the double doors I heard Santura yelling for his manager behind me. My father and the family had the Buick pulled up waiting for me outside the doors to Circuit City. I opened the door and got into the back seat while Santura and his manager, whose name I have since learned is Joe Atha, came running up to the vehicle. I closed the door and as my father was just about to pull away the manager, Joe, yelled for us to stop.
Now you say he was acting reasonable. You think you are a reasonable person, prove it. Instead of name calling, take your foot out of your mouth and explain how that employee is supposed to differentiate between how that customer acted and a shop lifter? Keep in mind it is highly unlikely that the employee can see every person walking through the checkouts. He entered the store of his own accord, he was aware of the stores policy of checking receipts on the way out, if he didn't like that, he didn't have to shop there.
btw. if you could clarify the death threat thing, reading your comments, definately looks like a death threat. Seems like you are throwing the coward label around for some reason, perhaps you have some kind of internal issue? :)
Nope you are missing the point. Speed cameras have signs indicating their presence. This near-accident occured in a location where there are NO SPEED CAMERAS. Had there been speed cameras, the guy (unless he is a complete idiot) would not have been speeding, because the one things people value the most if their hard earned cash! Logic doesn't tell people speeding = ticket, logic tells people speeding = risk of ticket. If the person knows the city only has three patrols on duty at any particular time, the likelyhood of the police being right there is extremely slim. So their complete LACK of respect for other people, and their self-centered nature makes it alright for them to speed down the road however fast they like. It is the very nature of people that we need speed cameras. There is nothing wrong with speed cameras, and if you think they don't impact public safety, go look at the UK. I think you need to re-read his blog. He wasn't refusing a random bag search, he was asked to present his receipt as he left the store. He said no thanks and continued walking. The guy was trying to be a smart ass, and he got nailed for it. If it was really about his rights, he would have stopped and made a big deal out of it. But he didn't he left the store in a suspicious manner. That employee had the right to ask for a proof of purchase, its a simple security check. You are leaving the store with potentially thousands of dollars of merchandise, you show the receipt. Now had he shown the receipt and they demanded to search his bag, that is then debatable. He shouldn't have rushed out of the store though without resolving the situation, that is suspicious. You seem like a smart person, think about it for a second. If you were going to shop lift from the store, what would you do? You would enter the store with a circuit city bag in your pocket. You would put the merchandise in the circuit city bag, and then you would walk out the door. When the security guy asks you to present your receipt, you say NO THANKS, and rush out the door, into a waiting car. Those stores have an open gangway between the exit and the registers and the store. Except for this rather bizarre case, most people would present the receipt. Heck, its usually a good idea to show the guy the receipt on your way out so if they attempt to tackle you in the parking lot later, you can say, well I did show the guy the receipt and sue the pants off them. The thing is, thats not what the guy did. He acted in a manner that a shoplifter would act. How would you propose that the store prevent theft (which would result in everyone else paying for the stuff stolen in the long run), if not for checking the receipt?
There is a serious lack of common sense here. There is nothing wrong with being courtious to the police. This guy was acting suspiciously, if you read his blog, he was asked for his license BEFORE the store had confirmed nothing was stolen. So it was likely the officer wanted to get his license to see if he had any prior shop lifting offenses. Why are you folks so afraid? The police officer isn't pointing the gun to your head, or acting crazy, why be discourtious? You had over your license to the officer is saying, look I am proving to you this is who I really am. These police have to deal with some really screwed up people on a daily basis, there is no need to try to make matters worse. Thats COMMON SENSE! This is just like those Islamic guys who are bitching about having their turbins searched at the airport. The TSA give them a private area to remove it if necessary, and you can bet your life, if anyone tried to walk through the airport wearing a giant texas cowboy hat, they'd be asked to remove it when they walked through security -- COMMON SENSE! Now there is nothing wrong with standing up for your rights, but there is a balance. You are not giving up any rights when you identify yourself to the police. By not identifying yourself properly to the police, you are simply making their job harder and casting suspicion on yourself. Now on the other hand, if the police come to your house, wanting to arrest you without a warrant. Thats a time to stand up and make a fuss. But come on, this guy could have saved everyone some hassle by acting with common sense, unfortunately he seems to not be alone with the folks that LACK IT!
More of a low tolerance for stupidity! :) I'd lump this guy in with the same folks who think its funny to answer YES to the "Are you a terrorist?" question at the airport, and then wonder why they get detained, miss their flight and get tossed on a no fly list. Then turn around and scream that their civil rights have been messed with.
Read his blog and see what he did.
a) He paid
b) He was asked for his receipt at the door
c) He said "No Thanks" and the Rushed out the door
d) Per his blog there was a running car waiting for him outside the store entrance
e) He jumped in the car and tried to drive off
How is the employee expected to determine that this guy is NOT a shop lifter? Most of those guys at the door are also greeters, so depending on how busy the store is they are watching people enter the store and leave the store at the same time. Its very possible that the employee didn't see the guy at the checkout.
People seem to be very quick to blame the store, but this guy acted suspiciously. He could have easily refused to show the contents of the bag, but still handed the guy the receipt, he could have waited for a manager to come and deal with the situation, but no, he rushed out the door.
There is a flaw with your logic though. A speed camera is there 24/7/365. If someone IS speeding, they WILL get a fine, end of story. The guy was willing to risk it because the probability of a police car on patrol right there was pretty low, and that road is pretty straight, so if there was one, chances are he could see it before they'd get a good radar reading. The speed camera is there constantly, if he risks it, he gets a ticket. If the speed cameras are strategically located on that road, it'd be impossible to speed on it without getting caught. The risk goes from moderate to a certainty. Even if the guy is stupid, by the time he has handed over a few hundred dollars in fines, he'll eventually get the message or he won't be able to afford to buy gas! The guy buying from Circuit City though was acting suspiciously, so the store employees had the right to try to keep him there until the authorities arrived. The police officer, well thats probably a legal issue, I could easily see though that a cop being dispatched because some idiot wouldn't show his receipt and ran to a waiting car, wouldn't exactly be amused.
Well so much for folks having common sense. There is a big leap between co-operating with police and installing cameras in your home. This boils down to common sense. Something many folks appear to be lacking. However, since you want to discuss speeding, let me give you a prime example. There is a 2 mile stretch of road here in a shopping district thats got a speed limit of 25 mph. The police don't have the resources (or the inclination) to patrol it, so folks do pretty much whatever they want. I typically see people doing 50 - 60 mph, in a 25 mph zone. This is a road with hundreds of shops, a skate park for kids and a rec center. The other day, a bloke in a pickup truck was driving about 60 mph down this road, passed me (why yes I was perhaps travelling at 27 mph - should I be busted, technically yes, common sense wise.. probably not), he was so busy on his cell phone that he didn't notice the red light, or the kid on a bike and mother / baby stroller behind her. He barely stopped, running the light and missing the kid by a few inches. The problem here is this could be anyone, your mom, your dad, your uncle, Timmy the store manager. These people aren't criminals, but sometimes they lack common sense, and more so, lack of respect / consideration for others. That guy in that truck was probably too preoccupied about getting his burger from McDonalds and back to work, that he felt the need to endanger, not only himself, but countless other innocent people (other motorists, kids crossing the street etc). Sometimes it is necessary, for the public safety of everyone else, to put measures in place that enforce laws, that you might seem to think is perfectly ok to violate because its necessary for free society. Speed cameras for example, would have caught someone doing 9 - 10 mph over the speed limit, high enough to discount someone who simply gave their car a little too much gas, but low enough to catch the violators. Now, the next time they are driving down the road, they remember the $150 fine they had to pay, and the extra $50/month they are paying in car insurance, and the fact that the mrs won't let him play golf on the weekends any more because he can't afford it. With your attitude, there would be no speed cameras, the police might patrol the street a few times a day, and some poor innocent kid is going to get their brains spread over the street. What if that poor kid is your brother, sister or cousin? Then those speed cameras might not be so bad after all. As you suggest, perhaps we should just let folks murder each other, and not bother reporting information on such crimes, you know because we shouldn't co-operate with police. The guy buying stuff from Circuit City exercised extremely poor judgement and a massive lack of common sense, and got what he deserved.
This guy went around things the wrong way. Instead of talking with the employee who wanted to inspect his bag, he left the store and got into a waiting car. To any reasonable person, that is going to look just a little suspicious. If you just purchased something legitimately, you have nothing to hide, so just let them check and be on your way. If you really have a problem with it, wait until the manager arrives, tell the manager what register you checked out from, and they can confirm that you purchased it legitimately. Thats not what this guy did. He took off out of the store in a hurry, which regardless of how innocent he may have been, still looks suspicious. Even in his blog entry he mentions that he "acts dumb", this is going to come around and bite him. At this point his very actions have given the employee grounds that he maybe a shop lifter, I'm not a lawyer but there is probably grounds there for detaining the guy until the police show up. Remember we're also just getting his point of view, police officers have a pretty high-stress job, they don't need idiots making their day worse. I'm sure that police officer had better things to be doing than getting dispatched to a moran outside of circuit city. People who have nothing to hide, once again, co-operate with the police. The only people who don't co-operate with police are criminals. I understand that this will spark off the civil rights people, but there is also a degree of common sense that everyone seems to be lacking these days. Common sense tells you, that I purchased these items, the guy at the store is just doing his job, just co-operate. Common sense also probably told the officer that someone needed to teach this guy a lesson and tossing him in jail probably should have done that! I bet this guy is a trip at Sam's Club, what about the airport? :)
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