The companies are complaining because they are hurting.
Then they should start their own training programs and recruit students using high wages as an incentive to joint the program. For the right salary, I'll sign up.
That's called a straw man. I didn't say that Python is COBOL or Python is FORTRAN. I said they had something in common, and that people who have experienced languages with that common feature have had bad experiences with it and are not just speculating on some aspect of coding they've never had any experience with.
The people telling you they don't like formal rules about the use of whitespace in syntax usually have tried it. "Old timers" probably had a gut full of problems this introduced into COBOL or FORTRAN code.
Here is some code for the "Old Timers":
python != cobol python != fortran
Trust me, I know the limitations of python and I could go on about where it is lacking or what is wrong with it--but the whitespace issue is not included. I simply refuse to believe that would be a deal killer for an intelligent person, but alas it is. Strange world.
These are my reasons for not liking it, you gave your reasons that you do like it, and that's fine, but I've done enough work in it to know that I don't care for it.
Yes, good. I don't want to convince you personally to like python. Please use whatever language *YOU* like best, even if its perl. But if I can convince you of any one thing, it would be to not publicly decry python just because of your own very personal and intimate reservations about syntactical whitespace. It seems that the smartest people (who do not also know python) are disposed to have this reservation about the language. But it is a reservation that stems not from intelligence but from a general ignorance of the python language.
That said, the idea of using whitespace as syntax... well... Oh God, I can't lie, it's horrible. But. But! There's ways around it. Ideally a code editor would make line-leading whitespace visible while keeping the rest invisible. Once you get more than one person working on a project, different indentation preferences (expand tabs to spaces vs. not) it's ridiculously easy to have weird mistakes creep in.
Look, this is everyone's biggest beef with python if they are not yet proficient at it. Somehow, we have come to believe that whitespace is sacred and that a language shouldn't tell us how to use it. I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise except this: don't knock it until you have tried it. Once you really delve into the language, you will wonder why anyone ever would program in any other language for general purpose programming.
Now, to more directly address your whitespace concerns:
You won't miss your whitespace freedom--in fact you impose your own whitespace rules on the code you right already. Python formalizes and enforces this good habit via syntax.
Since whitespace is syntax, you can use very standard tools to normalize it across a module in a couple of fractions of a second. Differing whitespace habits will never be a problem if you normalize whitespace before you begin coding on a collaborative module.
You won't mind the whitespace enforcement. In fact, after you go back to code you wrote a few months prior, you will be happy that something forced you to have consistent whitespace. Whitespace enforcement and other features of the language will shift your habits towards writing more reusable and maintainable code.
You will forget, for the most part, that whitespace enforcement is even part of the syntax once the language becomes second nature to you. In other words, you will so habitually use whitespace correctly (because you are forced to by syntax) that you will not even realize that you are using it as you code. All of the sovereignty over your whitespace that you thought was important to you will disappear because you will forget about its existence.
So give it a try and quit spreading FUD to all of those people who want "control over their whitespace". There are bigger things to think about, like whether you or someone else will be able to comprehend or reuse your code in six months.
So does calling someone a name and posting anonymously. I say go for it dude! Look, he's not collapsing the economy by doing it, some greedy bankers and a lot of irresponsible lenders already did that. Some college kid getting some free songs is not something you really need to get all huffy and righteous about. What you need to get huffy and righteous about is all of the powerful people who have destroyed the economy and your parents' retirement. But wait! Downloading a song is sooooo much more important, right?
To all of the righteous "downloading is a crime" types: get some priorities and complain about things that really matter, children.
The excuse is: it's fun. But if you do start, choose the right language for the job. Python for example seems good for fp, but was not designed for the task. Don't choose a language that simply supports functional programming. Choose a language that was designed specifically for functional programming. You'll be happier in the long run when you don't run into limitations of the language you choose.
Real idiots have to resort to telling people to fuck themselves and then calling names. Look, dude, go get your rocks off and you'll feel better, I promise.
You're a shill. You are easy to spot with your fresh (today?) id. Get a life. Try to become a productive member of society. I hope you get ticketed by a cop manning a speed trap and then spammed by 20 phone solicitors when you try to eat dinner tonight. I hope someone steals gas from your car and I hope someone of a race you are not knocks up your daughter and then disappears leaving you to care for the kid. You will deserve all of this because these people are your kind. Time to look in the mirror for you. Try not to spit at your own reflection.
People may be assholes, but perhaps, just perhaps...they are also hungry, powerless and do not see what the value is in our society profuse with avarice and greed.
People like you give bleeding heart liberals a bad name. Please stop.
Well, if we start labeling everything terrorism, maybe we'll get over our national obsession with it sooner and pols won't be able to manipulate us so easily by using that word.
The idea that you can reduce the power of the word terrorism by overusing it is subversive. In fact, I would go so far as to call one's attempting this scheme an act of terrorism.
I'm still foggy about his complete idea of what he believes the original interpretation of a "Controller"
It's always good to define one's terms before one begins to write about them. If you ask 10 different experienced developers what MVC is, you'll get 10 different answers. The problem with this article is that we never get what the author's interpretation of what MVC really is.
But no matter what one's definition of MVC, its like OOP. With OOP, it has been said that any substantially complex system is actually going to require some sort of implementation of OOP, even if its hopelessly half-assed. The same can be said for MVC.
Of course I just committed the same omission as TFA in that I haven't defined exactly what I mean by the terms I use.
It's freaking hilarious until someone tries and fails to make fun of YOU
If I can recognize meanness as an attempt at humor, I usually don't mind. If I don't recognize it as humor, I try to assume the best. If its obvious its not humor, I tend to show up at their house with a neutron laser, a bag of obturators, and a quart of wood glue.
If you can disembody yourself from the fact that GP was replying to your post and be objective for a minute, you'd see that the GP post was friggin' hilarious. Sometimes humor needs a brunt. Your best bet is to play the straight man when it happens to you. That's rule #23 in the karma playbook.
You guys are the reasons why software sucks in general, the damned cowboy attitudes.
One of my favorite games ever was Adventure on the Atari 2600. It also had one of the greatest easter eggs ever. I think its no coincidence. My guess is that uptight jackasses are the reason software sucks in general.
That said, I would never even think to put an easter egg in code--of course I do write pretty mediocre software in my opinion.
These are also often considered before sentencing, or even charging, from the prosecutor
Prosecutors are going to charge any and everything they think can possibly apply in the hopes that something will stick. Your naivete is charming.
So, no, even if your friend were technically guilty of a lesser and harmless violation of the same law that Drew was found guilty of violating in three counts, it would not logically follow that she must deserve the same punishment as the maximum to which Drew might be sentenced.
The friend should not be subject to this law and neither should Lori Drew. I know we don't live in the world of "should", but we are on/. right now, so we should be allowed some philosophical leeway.
This law in her case is used to exact retribution for only tangentially related wrongdoing and thus is being abused. You may like the law right now because thinking of Lori Drew's serving a lengthy prison sentence gives you a warm fuzzy--or maybe you are just looking for an excuse to spout your legal knowledge. But this verdict doesn't give me a warm fuzzy because I don't know the woman, I'll probably forget she ever existed in a week or two, and the precedent gives me a troubled feeling.
I could spend a lot of time arguing with you, but my position is this: everybody is doing high-fives right now because Lori Drew got her comeuppance and they hate her. But she got convicted on charges that should never exist. She caused harm and if no law exists that directly forbids that harm, then perhaps a law should be made. Something like "intent to cause harm to a minor through psychological torment".
But abusing laws that create victimless crimes as a proxy for properly using laws that should actually exist is the essence of injustice.
Owning a crowbar is not a crime. Using it to bash in the skull of your neighbor is a major felony.
OMG! You can use a crowbar to bash someone's skull?!??!11! We need to make those illegal ASAP. I'm starting MACUYAIP (Mother's Against Crow Bars Until You're All In Prison).
That' laughable. When was the last time anyone sat on a jury and the judge said "hey, if you think its a harmless violation, don't convict". You nailed the problem with her case in the head. People are applauding the Drew case because they hate her, but this precedent will be abused in short order and these same people will be singing a different song pretty soon.
I've heard that prostitutes sell used condoms for this very reason. I can't find any links on the web to this effect so maybe its simply a urban legend.
Dear God. I shudder to think of the context ads you'll be getting in the near future.
Maybe this explains why I keep getting slashdot banner ads for that phallic screwdriver thing with the reference to "flexible screwing".
I'm not saying I'm brilliant or anything, but the decoded message is not in TFA, where A E {"Artcle", "Announcement"}, at least as far as I could find.
Slashdot Mirror
The companies are complaining because they are hurting.
Then they should start their own training programs and recruit students using high wages as an incentive to joint the program. For the right salary, I'll sign up.
Look, this is everyone's biggest beef with Soviet Russia
Yeah, its also everyone's biggest beef with any sort of syntactical rules at all. Syntactical anarchy, I say!
That's called a straw man. I didn't say that Python is COBOL or Python is FORTRAN. I said they had something in common, and that people who have experienced languages with that common feature have had bad experiences with it and are not just speculating on some aspect of coding they've never had any experience with.
Fair enough:
python.whitespace != cobol.whitespace
python.whitespace != fortran.whitespace
No, I was just wrong.
How is that necessarily different from FUD?
The people telling you they don't like formal rules about the use of whitespace in syntax usually have tried it. "Old timers" probably had a gut full of problems this introduced into COBOL or FORTRAN code.
Here is some code for the "Old Timers":
python != cobol
python != fortran
Trust me, I know the limitations of python and I could go on about where it is lacking or what is wrong with it--but the whitespace issue is not included. I simply refuse to believe that would be a deal killer for an intelligent person, but alas it is. Strange world.
These are my reasons for not liking it, you gave your reasons that you do like it, and that's fine, but I've done enough work in it to know that I don't care for it.
Yes, good. I don't want to convince you personally to like python. Please use whatever language *YOU* like best, even if its perl. But if I can convince you of any one thing, it would be to not publicly decry python just because of your own very personal and intimate reservations about syntactical whitespace. It seems that the smartest people (who do not also know python) are disposed to have this reservation about the language. But it is a reservation that stems not from intelligence but from a general ignorance of the python language.
That said, the idea of using whitespace as syntax ... well ... Oh God, I can't lie, it's horrible. But. But! There's ways around it. Ideally a code editor would make line-leading whitespace visible while keeping the rest invisible. Once you get more than one person working on a project, different indentation preferences (expand tabs to spaces vs. not) it's ridiculously easy to have weird mistakes creep in.
Look, this is everyone's biggest beef with python if they are not yet proficient at it. Somehow, we have come to believe that whitespace is sacred and that a language shouldn't tell us how to use it. I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise except this: don't knock it until you have tried it. Once you really delve into the language, you will wonder why anyone ever would program in any other language for general purpose programming.
Now, to more directly address your whitespace concerns:
So give it a try and quit spreading FUD to all of those people who want "control over their whitespace". There are bigger things to think about, like whether you or someone else will be able to comprehend or reuse your code in six months.
That sounds a bit juvenile really.
So does calling someone a name and posting anonymously. I say go for it dude! Look, he's not collapsing the economy by doing it, some greedy bankers and a lot of irresponsible lenders already did that. Some college kid getting some free songs is not something you really need to get all huffy and righteous about. What you need to get huffy and righteous about is all of the powerful people who have destroyed the economy and your parents' retirement. But wait! Downloading a song is sooooo much more important, right?
To all of the righteous "downloading is a crime" types: get some priorities and complain about things that really matter, children.
What language would you recommend for an OO programmer to start with?
Scheme
You don't need an excuse, start today.
The excuse is: it's fun. But if you do start, choose the right language for the job. Python for example seems good for fp, but was not designed for the task. Don't choose a language that simply supports functional programming. Choose a language that was designed specifically for functional programming. You'll be happier in the long run when you don't run into limitations of the language you choose.
My 2c.
Now shut your hole and go fuck yourself, pissant.
Real idiots have to resort to telling people to fuck themselves and then calling names. Look, dude, go get your rocks off and you'll feel better, I promise.
I work at UMass Amherst
You're a shill. You are easy to spot with your fresh (today?) id. Get a life. Try to become a productive member of society. I hope you get ticketed by a cop manning a speed trap and then spammed by 20 phone solicitors when you try to eat dinner tonight. I hope someone steals gas from your car and I hope someone of a race you are not knocks up your daughter and then disappears leaving you to care for the kid. You will deserve all of this because these people are your kind. Time to look in the mirror for you. Try not to spit at your own reflection.
People may be assholes, but perhaps, just perhaps...they are also hungry, powerless and do not see what the value is in our society profuse with avarice and greed.
People like you give bleeding heart liberals a bad name. Please stop.
Well, if we start labeling everything terrorism, maybe we'll get over our national obsession with it sooner and pols won't be able to manipulate us so easily by using that word.
The idea that you can reduce the power of the word terrorism by overusing it is subversive. In fact, I would go so far as to call one's attempting this scheme an act of terrorism.
I'm still foggy about his complete idea of what he believes the original interpretation of a "Controller"
It's always good to define one's terms before one begins to write about them. If you ask 10 different experienced developers what MVC is, you'll get 10 different answers. The problem with this article is that we never get what the author's interpretation of what MVC really is.
But no matter what one's definition of MVC, its like OOP. With OOP, it has been said that any substantially complex system is actually going to require some sort of implementation of OOP, even if its hopelessly half-assed. The same can be said for MVC.
Of course I just committed the same omission as TFA in that I haven't defined exactly what I mean by the terms I use.
It's freaking hilarious until someone tries and fails to make fun of YOU
If I can recognize meanness as an attempt at humor, I usually don't mind. If I don't recognize it as humor, I try to assume the best. If its obvious its not humor, I tend to show up at their house with a neutron laser, a bag of obturators, and a quart of wood glue.
If you were trying to make fun of me
If you can disembody yourself from the fact that GP was replying to your post and be objective for a minute, you'd see that the GP post was friggin' hilarious. Sometimes humor needs a brunt. Your best bet is to play the straight man when it happens to you. That's rule #23 in the karma playbook.
You guys are the reasons why software sucks in general, the damned cowboy attitudes.
One of my favorite games ever was Adventure on the Atari 2600. It also had one of the greatest easter eggs ever. I think its no coincidence. My guess is that uptight jackasses are the reason software sucks in general.
That said, I would never even think to put an easter egg in code--of course I do write pretty mediocre software in my opinion.
These are also often considered before sentencing, or even charging, from the prosecutor
Prosecutors are going to charge any and everything they think can possibly apply in the hopes that something will stick. Your naivete is charming.
So, no, even if your friend were technically guilty of a lesser and harmless violation of the same law that Drew was found guilty of violating in three counts, it would not logically follow that she must deserve the same punishment as the maximum to which Drew might be sentenced.
The friend should not be subject to this law and neither should Lori Drew. I know we don't live in the world of "should", but we are on /. right now, so we should be allowed some philosophical leeway.
This law in her case is used to exact retribution for only tangentially related wrongdoing and thus is being abused. You may like the law right now because thinking of Lori Drew's serving a lengthy prison sentence gives you a warm fuzzy--or maybe you are just looking for an excuse to spout your legal knowledge. But this verdict doesn't give me a warm fuzzy because I don't know the woman, I'll probably forget she ever existed in a week or two, and the precedent gives me a troubled feeling.
I could spend a lot of time arguing with you, but my position is this: everybody is doing high-fives right now because Lori Drew got her comeuppance and they hate her. But she got convicted on charges that should never exist. She caused harm and if no law exists that directly forbids that harm, then perhaps a law should be made. Something like "intent to cause harm to a minor through psychological torment".
But abusing laws that create victimless crimes as a proxy for properly using laws that should actually exist is the essence of injustice.
Owning a crowbar is not a crime. Using it to bash in the skull of your neighbor is a major felony.
OMG! You can use a crowbar to bash someone's skull?!??!11! We need to make those illegal ASAP. I'm starting MACUYAIP (Mother's Against Crow Bars Until You're All In Prison).
harmless violation of the same law
That' laughable. When was the last time anyone sat on a jury and the judge said "hey, if you think its a harmless violation, don't convict". You nailed the problem with her case in the head. People are applauding the Drew case because they hate her, but this precedent will be abused in short order and these same people will be singing a different song pretty soon.
Owning a crowbar is not a crime. Using it to bash in the skull of your neighbor is a major felony. Likewise, it isn't illegal to have a pseudonym.
But using your pseudonym to bash in the skull of your neighbor is a major no no.
How about this: don't fucking sign up with a pseudonym you fucking criminal!
Oh wait.
I've heard that prostitutes sell used condoms for this very reason. I can't find any links on the web to this effect so maybe its simply a urban legend.
Dear God. I shudder to think of the context ads you'll be getting in the near future.
Maybe this explains why I keep getting slashdot banner ads for that phallic screwdriver thing with the reference to "flexible screwing".
After that, I read TFA.
I'm not saying I'm brilliant or anything, but the decoded message is not in TFA, where A E {"Artcle", "Announcement"}, at least as far as I could find.