Me: OSX isn't open on the hardware level, show me the hardware it runs on openly. (haven't said anything about the software level, like programs and such)
So, you didn't write:
OSX is open you say?
or
As for Darwin and Webkit, those were made by other people, Apple just bought them out.
or
I do, I also know that slavery isn't freedom regardless of what Steve Jobs says about the locked down walled garden.
???
Someone made a comment about freedom and anarachy, nothing about OSX's software,
Really? So you didn't mention OS X or other Apple software, and neither did one of the people in this thread write:
Yes, the same Apple that is behind Darwin, WebKit, Bonjour, and countless other open source projects. Don't get me wrong, their iOS devices are a nightmare in this aspect, but OS X is a very open platform.
Don't you understand that these are software?
I then mentioned the walled garden in response to the AC's comment about freedom.
Which was a direct continuation of you saying Mac OS X wasn't free!
I haven't said anything about OSX's software freedom, that was something you made up.
So, all those quotes of yours I just "made up"?
When are you going to start actually READING the posts you are replying to? Do you know what discussions are? What threads are?
Oh, do please explain how I'm a fanatic, can't see shades of grey, or can't see other people's points of view. I'll just sit right here.
Well, I've already pointed out many issues with you before in he past, from Mac hardware prices being higher then other companies (which you tried to twist on me),
You mean by showing that Mac hardware prices *aren't* higher than other companies? When you compare equivalent hardware, Macs are generally cheaper than Dells, for example. Sometimes they are more. You think that if you can find *one* example to the contrary (for example, when the MacBook Pros still had Core2Duos (which was done for technical reasons because Nvidia lost the right to make chipsets for the Core iX cpus, which is what Apple was intending to use)), that this proves "Macs are more expensive".
This is what I mean by "black and white". You constantly only accept facts that support your preconceptions, and dismiss those that don't.
to not long ago showing you that Mac isn't the most secure OS out there (which you demanded had to be regardless that I had your word against the word of professionals)
Please quote where I said Mac OS X is the "most secure OS out there". It is more secure than Windows. This is simple to prove: what are the odds of a Mac being pwned? What are the odds of a Windows PC being pwned? Seems pretty straightforward to me!
to this topic where I mentioned about hardware and you've decided that instead of staying remotely on topic you'll derail it into OSX's software. But hey, keep sitting there, I know you'll twist this some more to make yourself feel better
*YOU* are the one who mentioned Mac OS X. I was replying TO YOU.
How can they do more with iOS then Android and linux? You keep saying that it is, but then refuse to point to a single example.
Do you know what the word "refuse" means?
And I provided *TWO* examples: there are MORE iOS apps than Android apps, and the iOS apps are generally easier to use. That's something that actually allows normal people to do more.
Then you point out that it there is more freedom on Android and Linux but that no one benefits from it (again, how?).
I never said "no one benefits from it". I said "most people". More than once.
There has been malware on iOS, go look it up.
Not for non-jailbroken iPhones. Do you wonder why I keep having to ask if you even READ the posts you are replying to?
And again, I pointed out that there had been people hacked on the Apple forums but again you ignored that fact because your blind to it.
No you didn't. You claimed that people had to have their phones reset.
I give you fact, I point out where to find it yourself, but still you refused to see it. That is why I pointed out pot meet kettle, because you defined yourself to the letter.
Um, aside from the fact that this was written after you made the pot/kettle statement, YOU DIDN'T PROVIDE ANY USEFUL INFORMATION for finding it. I'm not going to hunt around on Apple's forums to check the assertion of some random slashdotter that can't even seem to read the posts he's directly replying to.
sigh...* Again, you ignored the facts. GO LOOK UP THE ARTICLE AGAIN. It wasn't just one app, it was many, the article pointed it out, but as always, facts just get in your way so you ignore them.
WHAT ARTICLE? Do you think you are embedding hyperlinks into your posts or something?
Look up, read again. If you come back to this same answer, repeat the steps again. And you have yet to prove a single way iOS provides any more freedom. All you have given me is your word that it somehow does. Yet no way to show/say it. I was able to show/say otherwise granted.
Honestly, lets just take one small look at your joke of a reply. I said hardware and you're knee-jerk reaction was to quickly alter the facts and twist it into a psuedo-argument about OSX's software. I never said a single thing about the software, at least not until you brought it up
I wonder what the opening line to your post that I was replying to was. I bet it was about Mac OS X.
OSX[sic] is open you say?
Strange, that sounds like you are mentioning Mac OS X. But since you say you weren't, I'll just have to assume it was a mirage...
If I had mentioned in any of these posts "OSX is a locked down, walled garden OS that doesn't allow any freedom" then sure, I would be wrong and these comments would be fair and expected.
That's a red herring. You don't have to claim that OS X "doesn't allow any freedom" to be wrong. That statement *would* make you wrong, but you're plenty wrong without adding this specific wrong statement to your repertoire.
But I didn't say that, I said nothing remotely like it. In fact, it had been an argument about the hardware and what did Apple code. It has nothing to do with Open Source, it never did at any point. But you wanted it to be, and your posts show that.
Like I asked in another reply to you, do you even READ the threads you participate in? The post of yours I was replying to mentioned Mac OS X, Darwin, and WebKit (and I even let your *huge* incorrect statement that "Apple merely bought them out" slide--see what I mean about you being wrong enough as it is?).
That's the problem with fanatics, they only see things in black and white, and only from their point of view (which is why they can pretend grey doesn't exist).
Pot, meet kettle.
Oh, do please explain how I'm a fanatic, can't see shades of grey, or can't see other people's points of view. I'll just sit right here.
How is this locked garden more free for people?
For most people, is what I wrote. It's more free for them because they can do more with iOS than they can do with other systems, like Android or Linux. I figured this would be obvious when I wrote "What good is the small bit of additional "freedom" to people who can't benefit from it?", but I forgot my audience.
It has caused a lack of options to choose different programs
iOS has significantly more options than Android. And of the options that exist, people have more confidence in, and an easier time using, those in iOS.
as Apple has killed just about any competition in its dealing (look about about the small ebook publishers).
Bullshit. Apple allows pretty much any type of app on the App Store with a small number of exceptions. They certainly haven't done anything close to "killing just about any competition".
It hasn't made the iOS any safer, in fact it made it hazardous (look about the sms of death and how it was left open for 2 days and couldn't be fixed BECAUSE of iOS's locked down nature.
Are you serious? Look at all the malware for Android, and the total of absolutely zero malware for iPhones that haven't been hacked by their users.
As for your specific example, how many iPhones were hit by this? Wow, two whole days, and nothing happened! Do you think the average person will fare any better with Android? Hell, some phones even *can't* be upgraded unless the user hacks it! And very few people are going to seek out their own updates from the "community". Most people will just update when the phone asks them to (and often not even then).
And don't say it wasn't a real issue, because if you look on Apples forums there complaints for those 2 days of many iPhones suddenly dying and needed to be restored from iTunes, most likely many of them being because the people using them didn't know about the sms of death bug.) And before you try saying that Android is a problem because it's had pirated programs sold on it, remember, that problem was first (and still is a problem) on the Apple App Stores (good look up about the Laguru game and how it took over a week to be removed and they mentioned it wasn't the only game, it was only the one they were highlighting.)
"Hey, don't say I'm wrong!" You're just making shit up here. And Lugaru is your example? ONE iOS pirated app, that Apple pulled in a reasonable amount of time, is even *remotely* similar to the *loads* of pirated software for Android?
How has this been "more freedom" for people? Seriously, how? Granted I don't expect an answer from you because the last time I called you out on your hypocrisy and cornered you with facts you cowarded out and claimed to not read the message.
*WHAT* hypocrisy? You haven't called me out on *anything*. You have not pointed out even one hypocritical thing I've written. As for me not replying to, don't take it personally, you probably just weren't that interesting. And I've already explained how iOS provides SIGNIFICANTLY more freedom for most people.
Like I said, what good is a little bit of additional "freedom", if you can't make use of it?
Do you know how discussions work? They are based on what was said before.
||||| Apple is closed! |||| iOS is, but Mac OS X isn't. ||| Yes it is. || Nonsense. | The walled garden is closed! me: The walled garden is iOS, you were replying to a statement about Mac OS X.
The bold entries are you. Do you even read the threads you participate in?
No, he addressed what you wrote quite well. But I'll go even further:
iOS, the "locked down, walled garden" that it is, is SIGNIFICANTLY more free for most people than something like Android or Linux in general. What good is the small bit of additional "freedom" to people who can't benefit from it?
That's the problem with fanatics, they only see things in black and white, and only from their point of view (which is why they can pretend grey doesn't exist).
For people like you, there's *nothing* short of being Open Source that counts as being anything but "very, very closed and locked". It's a mind-virus that can barely discern shades of grey.
Apple is a very open company. They are far more open than, for example, MS. Just because you can cite one example to the contrary does not make them so super-closed as you seem to think. After all, if they decided to allow install of OS X on non-Apple hardware, you'd just find something else to bitch about.
I don't think Sony expects many people to upgrade to a slim PS3, just as I don't think Nintendo expects many people to switch to a black Wii. And if you want to talk upgrade cycles, let's talk about Game Boys and DSs!
You're doing exactly what I'm talking about. Taking something and flipping it on its head solely in order to maintain the "Sony sucks, Nintendo is good" concept.
Right, so it will take 10 black hats a work week to crack one password. Given the ratio of black hats to usernames, I wouldn't worry too much unless you are person of relative interest.
Also, they have to get the password file (or equivalent) in the first place.
And that's just to get ONE password. Unless you know what you are going after, you probably aren't going to put in that much effort. And you most likely won't know ahead of time going into it if the password is short enough to be worth even trying (although I suppose you could make some calculated risks here).
But the number of potential attackers is significantly diminished. And he did mention deliberate character substitution, which helps against that (as well as helping against dictionary attacks).
Um... That was exactly the AC's point. The imprecision of the Wii controller made it more secure. (not a terribly funny joke to begin with, but if you're going to continue it, may as well get it right)
"The data is safe because Nintendo doesn't provide the same level of service as Sony", is somehow turned into "the data is safe because Sony is a bad company and Nintendo is good".
One of the really funny things about defending the way Nintendo does it is that if you buy a new console, you can't even redownload your purchases. With Sony, you just log in with your PSN ID, and download away! Isn't that usually the argument against online purchases? That you have to re-buy everything? Yet since Sony is the one doing it right, you guys find no trouble contorting yourself to make it look like it's the other way around.
And this is clearly an attempt by LulzSec to make Nintendo look good and Sony look bad, by the very same double-standard. They say they didn't want to hurt Nintendo. But they clearly wanted to hurt Sony. So they tried to hurt Sony, but didn't try to hurt Nintendo, but the headline reads as though Nintendo was hacked, but their security kept customer data safe, when reality is that there was no customer data to steal, and LulzSec didn't seem interested in doing any damage other than to prove they were there.
As a company, I like Nintendo much more than Sony, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of reality. In terms of online offerings and capabilities, Sony is way ahead of Nintendo. Spinning this as a good thing is just absurd.
Libertarians believe in necessary regulation. Those which don't simply don't know they aren't libertarians but anarchists. We DO have names for these things; you are hereby invited to use the proper ones.
Hmm.... I wonder if we were to read the part of my post that was replaced with an ellipsis, what it would say.
"Now, in some sort of hypothetical anarchist/libertarian nation, you will find that without governments to enforce their law, cartels and mobs and the like will rise and enforce their laws."
Wow, no fucking way! I actually did use those labels! Amazing!
I think it's odd you mention bringing people across state lines. I don't think anyone is advocating total free trade of anything and anyone to the point of trafficking people. I think for most people, they consider the "right" to trade people is inferior to a more basic ideal of human freedom.
Exactly. Even most "free market" fanatics place limits on the markets they would implement.
I agree that "free trade" should be an ideal, but it should also be understood that it is impossible to ever achieve. The problem arises when people think that anything less than "free trade" is immoral. What that really means is that morality is impossible. That's the fundamental flaw with the Randists and the libertarians.
You bet your ass there's such a thing as free trade. Happens every day between states, and between provinces. Fair trade however is quickly becoming the norm, and if you want to see how bad it's getting you only need to look at NAFTA.
hahaha...
Try to bring weapons, drugs, or people, across state lines, and tell me if you think free trade actually exists.
Slashdot Mirror
Me: OSX isn't open on the hardware level, show me the hardware it runs on openly. (haven't said anything about the software level, like programs and such)
So, you didn't write:
OSX is open you say?
or
As for Darwin and Webkit, those were made by other people, Apple just bought them out.
or
I do, I also know that slavery isn't freedom regardless of what Steve Jobs says about the locked down walled garden.
???
Someone made a comment about freedom and anarachy, nothing about OSX's software,
Really? So you didn't mention OS X or other Apple software, and neither did one of the people in this thread write:
Yes, the same Apple that is behind Darwin, WebKit, Bonjour, and countless other open source projects. Don't get me wrong, their iOS devices are a nightmare in this aspect, but OS X is a very open platform.
Don't you understand that these are software?
I then mentioned the walled garden in response to the AC's comment about freedom.
Which was a direct continuation of you saying Mac OS X wasn't free!
I haven't said anything about OSX's software freedom, that was something you made up.
So, all those quotes of yours I just "made up"?
When are you going to start actually READING the posts you are replying to? Do you know what discussions are? What threads are?
Oh, do please explain how I'm a fanatic, can't see shades of grey, or can't see other people's points of view. I'll just sit right here.
Well, I've already pointed out many issues with you before in he past, from Mac hardware prices being higher then other companies (which you tried to twist on me),
You mean by showing that Mac hardware prices *aren't* higher than other companies? When you compare equivalent hardware, Macs are generally cheaper than Dells, for example. Sometimes they are more. You think that if you can find *one* example to the contrary (for example, when the MacBook Pros still had Core2Duos (which was done for technical reasons because Nvidia lost the right to make chipsets for the Core iX cpus, which is what Apple was intending to use)), that this proves "Macs are more expensive".
This is what I mean by "black and white". You constantly only accept facts that support your preconceptions, and dismiss those that don't.
to not long ago showing you that Mac isn't the most secure OS out there (which you demanded had to be regardless that I had your word against the word of professionals)
Please quote where I said Mac OS X is the "most secure OS out there". It is more secure than Windows. This is simple to prove: what are the odds of a Mac being pwned? What are the odds of a Windows PC being pwned? Seems pretty straightforward to me!
to this topic where I mentioned about hardware and you've decided that instead of staying remotely on topic you'll derail it into OSX's software. But hey, keep sitting there, I know you'll twist this some more to make yourself feel better
*YOU* are the one who mentioned Mac OS X. I was replying TO YOU.
How can they do more with iOS then Android and linux? You keep saying that it is, but then refuse to point to a single example.
Do you know what the word "refuse" means?
And I provided *TWO* examples: there are MORE iOS apps than Android apps, and the iOS apps are generally easier to use. That's something that actually allows normal people to do more.
Then you point out that it there is more freedom on Android and Linux but that no one benefits from it (again, how?).
I never said "no one benefits from it". I said "most people". More than once.
There has been malware on iOS, go look it up.
Not for non-jailbroken iPhones. Do you wonder why I keep having to ask if you even READ the posts you are replying to?
And again, I pointed out that there had been people hacked on the Apple forums but again you ignored that fact because your blind to it.
No you didn't. You claimed that people had to have their phones reset.
I give you fact, I point out where to find it yourself, but still you refused to see it. That is why I pointed out pot meet kettle, because you defined yourself to the letter.
Um, aside from the fact that this was written after you made the pot/kettle statement, YOU DIDN'T PROVIDE ANY USEFUL INFORMATION for finding it. I'm not going to hunt around on Apple's forums to check the assertion of some random slashdotter that can't even seem to read the posts he's directly replying to.
sigh...* Again, you ignored the facts. GO LOOK UP THE ARTICLE AGAIN. It wasn't just one app, it was many, the article pointed it out, but as always, facts just get in your way so you ignore them.
WHAT ARTICLE? Do you think you are embedding hyperlinks into your posts or something?
Look up, read again. If you come back to this same answer, repeat the steps again. And you have yet to prove a single way iOS provides any more freedom. All you have given me is your word that it somehow does. Yet no way to show/say it. I was able to show/say otherwise granted.
Honestly, lets just take one small look at your joke of a reply. I said hardware and you're knee-jerk reaction was to quickly alter the facts and twist it into a psuedo-argument about OSX's software. I never said a single thing about the software, at least not until you brought it up
I wonder what the opening line to your post that I was replying to was. I bet it was about Mac OS X.
OSX[sic] is open you say?
Strange, that sounds like you are mentioning Mac OS X. But since you say you weren't, I'll just have to assume it was a mirage...
If I had mentioned in any of these posts "OSX is a locked down, walled garden OS that doesn't allow any freedom" then sure, I would be wrong and these comments would be fair and expected.
That's a red herring. You don't have to claim that OS X "doesn't allow any freedom" to be wrong. That statement *would* make you wrong, but you're plenty wrong without adding this specific wrong statement to your repertoire.
But I didn't say that, I said nothing remotely like it. In fact, it had been an argument about the hardware and what did Apple code. It has nothing to do with Open Source, it never did at any point. But you wanted it to be, and your posts show that.
Like I asked in another reply to you, do you even READ the threads you participate in? The post of yours I was replying to mentioned Mac OS X, Darwin, and WebKit (and I even let your *huge* incorrect statement that "Apple merely bought them out" slide--see what I mean about you being wrong enough as it is?).
That's the problem with fanatics, they only see things in black and white, and only from their point of view (which is why they can pretend grey doesn't exist).
Pot, meet kettle.
Oh, do please explain how I'm a fanatic, can't see shades of grey, or can't see other people's points of view. I'll just sit right here.
How is this locked garden more free for people?
For most people, is what I wrote. It's more free for them because they can do more with iOS than they can do with other systems, like Android or Linux. I figured this would be obvious when I wrote "What good is the small bit of additional "freedom" to people who can't benefit from it?", but I forgot my audience.
It has caused a lack of options to choose different programs
iOS has significantly more options than Android. And of the options that exist, people have more confidence in, and an easier time using, those in iOS.
as Apple has killed just about any competition in its dealing (look about about the small ebook publishers).
Bullshit. Apple allows pretty much any type of app on the App Store with a small number of exceptions. They certainly haven't done anything close to "killing just about any competition".
It hasn't made the iOS any safer, in fact it made it hazardous (look about the sms of death and how it was left open for 2 days and couldn't be fixed BECAUSE of iOS's locked down nature.
Are you serious? Look at all the malware for Android, and the total of absolutely zero malware for iPhones that haven't been hacked by their users.
As for your specific example, how many iPhones were hit by this? Wow, two whole days, and nothing happened! Do you think the average person will fare any better with Android? Hell, some phones even *can't* be upgraded unless the user hacks it! And very few people are going to seek out their own updates from the "community". Most people will just update when the phone asks them to (and often not even then).
And don't say it wasn't a real issue, because if you look on Apples forums there complaints for those 2 days of many iPhones suddenly dying and needed to be restored from iTunes, most likely many of them being because the people using them didn't know about the sms of death bug.) And before you try saying that Android is a problem because it's had pirated programs sold on it, remember, that problem was first (and still is a problem) on the Apple App Stores (good look up about the Laguru game and how it took over a week to be removed and they mentioned it wasn't the only game, it was only the one they were highlighting.)
"Hey, don't say I'm wrong!" You're just making shit up here. And Lugaru is your example? ONE iOS pirated app, that Apple pulled in a reasonable amount of time, is even *remotely* similar to the *loads* of pirated software for Android?
How has this been "more freedom" for people? Seriously, how? Granted I don't expect an answer from you because the last time I called you out on your hypocrisy and cornered you with facts you cowarded out and claimed to not read the message.
*WHAT* hypocrisy? You haven't called me out on *anything*. You have not pointed out even one hypocritical thing I've written. As for me not replying to, don't take it personally, you probably just weren't that interesting. And I've already explained how iOS provides SIGNIFICANTLY more freedom for most people.
Like I said, what good is a little bit of additional "freedom", if you can't make use of it?
Do you know how discussions work? They are based on what was said before.
||||| Apple is closed!
|||| iOS is, but Mac OS X isn't.
||| Yes it is.
|| Nonsense.
| The walled garden is closed!
me: The walled garden is iOS, you were replying to a statement about Mac OS X.
The bold entries are you. Do you even read the threads you participate in?
I thought it was pretty funny. Not "hilarious" or anything, but a worthy prank.
Why? They never have in the past. And in a "business environment", you're likely to find value in using proper Apple hardware.
Apple tends to favor the carrot much more than the stick. You must be thinking of the other guys.
No, he addressed what you wrote quite well. But I'll go even further:
iOS, the "locked down, walled garden" that it is, is SIGNIFICANTLY more free for most people than something like Android or Linux in general. What good is the small bit of additional "freedom" to people who can't benefit from it?
That's the problem with fanatics, they only see things in black and white, and only from their point of view (which is why they can pretend grey doesn't exist).
I do, I also know that slavery isn't freedom regardless of what Steve Jobs says about the locked down walled garden.
Did you already forget that you were calling Mac OS X closed, not iOS? Mac OS X isn't a "walled garden".
For people like you, there's *nothing* short of being Open Source that counts as being anything but "very, very closed and locked". It's a mind-virus that can barely discern shades of grey.
Apple is a very open company. They are far more open than, for example, MS. Just because you can cite one example to the contrary does not make them so super-closed as you seem to think. After all, if they decided to allow install of OS X on non-Apple hardware, you'd just find something else to bitch about.
I don't think Sony expects many people to upgrade to a slim PS3, just as I don't think Nintendo expects many people to switch to a black Wii. And if you want to talk upgrade cycles, let's talk about Game Boys and DSs!
You're doing exactly what I'm talking about. Taking something and flipping it on its head solely in order to maintain the "Sony sucks, Nintendo is good" concept.
Right, so it will take 10 black hats a work week to crack one password. Given the ratio of black hats to usernames, I wouldn't worry too much unless you are person of relative interest.
Also, they have to get the password file (or equivalent) in the first place.
And that's just to get ONE password. Unless you know what you are going after, you probably aren't going to put in that much effort. And you most likely won't know ahead of time going into it if the password is short enough to be worth even trying (although I suppose you could make some calculated risks here).
But the number of potential attackers is significantly diminished. And he did mention deliberate character substitution, which helps against that (as well as helping against dictionary attacks).
Well, I would but I haven't bought a Move controller yet and only have a Wii-mote handy, so...
One of the really funny things about defending the way Nintendo does it is that if you buy a new console, you can't even redownload your purchases
Yes, you can. You connect your Nintendo account to your Wii, and when you get a different Wii you connect it to the same Nintendo account.
Unless it has changed, that's not how it works. Your Virtual Console purchases are tied to your Wii.
You can easily check it yourself. They are running apache on F5 Big-IP boxes, which are Linux-based systems.
Um... That was exactly the AC's point. The imprecision of the Wii controller made it more secure. (not a terribly funny joke to begin with, but if you're going to continue it, may as well get it right)
This whole thread is so full of troll...
"The data is safe because Nintendo doesn't provide the same level of service as Sony", is somehow turned into "the data is safe because Sony is a bad company and Nintendo is good".
One of the really funny things about defending the way Nintendo does it is that if you buy a new console, you can't even redownload your purchases. With Sony, you just log in with your PSN ID, and download away! Isn't that usually the argument against online purchases? That you have to re-buy everything? Yet since Sony is the one doing it right, you guys find no trouble contorting yourself to make it look like it's the other way around.
And this is clearly an attempt by LulzSec to make Nintendo look good and Sony look bad, by the very same double-standard. They say they didn't want to hurt Nintendo. But they clearly wanted to hurt Sony. So they tried to hurt Sony, but didn't try to hurt Nintendo, but the headline reads as though Nintendo was hacked, but their security kept customer data safe, when reality is that there was no customer data to steal, and LulzSec didn't seem interested in doing any damage other than to prove they were there.
As a company, I like Nintendo much more than Sony, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of reality. In terms of online offerings and capabilities, Sony is way ahead of Nintendo. Spinning this as a good thing is just absurd.
you really need to bring someone with experience onto the team.
That's essentially what he's doing.
Libertarians believe in necessary regulation. Those which don't simply don't know they aren't libertarians but anarchists. We DO have names for these things; you are hereby invited to use the proper ones.
Hmm.... I wonder if we were to read the part of my post that was replaced with an ellipsis, what it would say.
"Now, in some sort of hypothetical anarchist/libertarian nation, you will find that without governments to enforce their law, cartels and mobs and the like will rise and enforce their laws."
Wow, no fucking way! I actually did use those labels! Amazing!
I think it's odd you mention bringing people across state lines. I don't think anyone is advocating total free trade of anything and anyone to the point of trafficking people. I think for most people, they consider the "right" to trade people is inferior to a more basic ideal of human freedom.
Exactly. Even most "free market" fanatics place limits on the markets they would implement.
Just to be clear, you are being deliberately obtuse, right? Sometimes humor doesn't come across very well.
I agree that "free trade" should be an ideal, but it should also be understood that it is impossible to ever achieve. The problem arises when people think that anything less than "free trade" is immoral. What that really means is that morality is impossible. That's the fundamental flaw with the Randists and the libertarians.
You bet your ass there's such a thing as free trade. Happens every day between states, and between provinces. Fair trade however is quickly becoming the norm, and if you want to see how bad it's getting you only need to look at NAFTA.
hahaha...
Try to bring weapons, drugs, or people, across state lines, and tell me if you think free trade actually exists.