But when he touch US interests (plan to nationalize Panama canal), general Noriega becomes the great drug villain and the US invade Panama.
Years before Noriega "pinnaple face" became a general, the Panama Canal treaty was already signed thanks to the general (who many believe Noriega killed) "Omar Torrijos Herrera" and Jimmy Carter.
US turned against Noriega when he went nuts. He had doctor "Hugo Spadafora" brutally killed, which led to scandal , a whistle blower, huge peaceful opposition, a failed cup, Noriega's suspencion of Constitutional rights, etc, etc.
US invaded, hundreds of Panamenians died, no more useless Panamenian Army. End of story.
Yes, you said before boarding a plane, but that's not what they're talking about.
Well, being that I'm not "they" let's just stick to replaying to what I'm saying, ok ?:-)
I don't much like the cameras in public cases, although I think the crypto laws are worse, but I do think they could help a bit in some areas. It's important to point out exactly where the techology is acceptable, as well as were it isn't.
BTW, I agree that crypto laws are meaningless, but I object to your opposition of face recognition.
What essencial right is lost by scanning your face before you enter an airplane ? By bundling these type of measures with the crypto debate, it's more likely you congressman is just going to dismiss you as a reactionary whiner and ignore your whole letter.
The unwillingness of you and people like you to recognize that the US has foreign policy, let alone that our foreign policy may not always be in the best interests of the American people... THAT sickens me.
Actually, more frustrating is your unwillingness to understand the mastermind of these attacks goals. As stated by the previous poster, is the elminication of Heathen governments like ours and their replacement with "Holy" Islamic ones.
You don't seem to want to understand that.
Do you think Bin Laden cares if we help broker peace in Israel, do you think he cares if we give more money in aid to the Middle East ?
What's his number #1 complain right now ? That we touched his Holy Land Saudi Arabia.
Please, feel free to reason and deal with fanatical opportunists like these. See how far you get.
You can blame the US all you want for this cowardly attack, that just makes the terrorist laugh their asses off.
The main mission for which the Military Organization is responsible is:
The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with an Islamic regime.
Please read more, indeed !
Re:Moral relativism does not justify injustice.
on
A New Kind of War
·
· Score: 2
I see your point, but I am arguing right or wrong here. The type of tyrannical Theocracy in Afghanistan has no place in the 21th century, it's a relic of the Dark & Middle Ages that is about time this part of the world should have given up.
Yes, most people just see "we are right" and "they are wrong", but it's even worse than that. The opponents in this case are fuled by fanatical religious views and express feelings of ridding the world of people not only by political beliefs but by religious ones.
Just wait until one of these guys gets a hold of Nukes and you can see bye bye to the safety of "Mutually Assured Destruction".
The "Evil" Soviet Empire is starting to sound more and more like Disney Land compared to these guys.
> So, contrary to people's claims that Bin Laden hates democracy: that we are a democracy is actually probably totally irrelevant to people like him. This concept, in fact, is almost totally opposite to the real problem: that he feels that there is no legitimacy (which democracy would be one avenue of providing) to what the US does in the Middle East.
Actually, he hates a Democracy or any other form of government that is not a Theocratic radial Muslim "government" like the Taliban.
It's right there in his pronouncements and writings, and it's stated as a goal for his org, to topple our "Infidel" governments with just Islamic ones that "Allah" will bless.
As for our foreign policy, yeah he hates it, but he mainly hates the fact we had troops (with permission btw) in Saudi Arabia.
I think your point reflects other and larger groups in the ME, but not really the fanatical extremism practiced by Bin Laden. His goals and excuses are quite clear and well documented.
Re:We will lose big time while pretending to win :
on
A New Kind of War
·
· Score: 2
All that you have said is reasonable and will be done. However, one must beware of changing policy as a reaction to a terrorist act. That's exactly the goal and motivation of most acts of terrorism by definition.
As for Bin Laden, we have no choice but to bring him to justice. Even if that means others come up. Being passive in the face of evil is evil itself and very impractical.
This has nothing to do with revenge or retribution, this has to do with self preservation. And one or two measures are not the solution, a myriad of options need to be considered.
But to say that capturing and bringing the culprit and others with him to justice is not necessary, is ludicrous. Pay attention to the words of the terrorist, they are counting on that same reaction.
And again, I'll say it, instead of only asking what we've done, go read the motivations from the devil's own mouth. He's said it pretty clear, he's told people to kill "Americans" whenever you can, etc.
We also can't go soft like usual with regimes and terrorist. We've been attack by this particular network before many many times, and we did nothing. The last thing we did was an innefective and dumb cruise missile attack, which that did embolden the terrorist and showed them more of our weakness, which is hesitation to act.
BTW, that one can also be shown easily by paying attention to the terrorist own words (Bin Laden's brother, in CBS interview. "You are cowards sending cruise missiles...", "You are afraid to die, we are not", etc)
As for being from another country ? Well at least 63 nationalities were present in that attack, chances are they killed somebody from your country too.
Moral relativism does not justify injustice.
on
A New Kind of War
·
· Score: 2
Let's see , what's better for the human race;
Democracy or Theocratic Fundamentalism ?
This one is a no brainer, just ask the Hindus in Afghanistan asked to wear a scarlet letter marking them as non-Muslim.
As the women who got their businesses taken away, and that are not allowed to be educated and have to be covered even with masks.
Ask the people who are sick and tired of tribal warfare, and people making up religious laws that give them no freedom.
Instead, such an act would further fuel the hate that this came from to begin with. If anything, we should investigate where this came from and try to remedy that. Take away the cause, research just *why* this could have happened and try to take away the causes of terrorism instead of just fight the effects.
The main cause of terrorism in this case has already been mouthed by Bin Laden over and over again. He's upset we set foot on Saudi Arabia, and his orginzation is interested in replacing infidel govts like ours with radical Islamic fundamentalism.
The main problem here is radicals that pervert the Islamic religion, and governments that use this religion to opress their citizenry and fund terrorist to do their dirty work.
We might not be dealing with a "traditional army", but if you train, feed, harbor and encourage the terrorist groups that's just another type of army. It's also convienient, because you say "It wasn't me" type of excuses.
If we do not that (and the Bush Administration seems incapable of it) then this is only the beginning, no matter how many countries the US would nuke away for the purpose of retaliation.
Actually, I have all the confidence that they have a good chance of succeding in eliminating at least some of the more dangerous groups.
Bush's team learned from president Clinton, that cruise misseles don't solve the problem at all.
BTW, we're not about to nuke anybody, but feel free to be alarmist and reactionary. Perhaps the studying here should be by you and why don't you place any blame on the Islamic fundamentalist, and at least one of their Theocratic government, which by the way opresses Afghans.
Oh, Afghani foreign policy after we helped them get rid of Russia ? 43 million in drought relief last year, and 9 out of 10 dollars of aid into Afghanistan come from the US.
Maybe the world community , specially Europe should try to help poor countries as well instead of depending on the US to be the one spending all the money ?
Re:They talked about this on the "O'Reilly Factor"
on
A New Kind of War
·
· Score: 2
I think firing people on the current CIA hirerarchy is a good start !
You forgot to even refer to the primary motivation I forwarded to you, which is the single fact we set foot there. Not that we polluted anything, just that we touched Sauidi Arabia with our troops.
You also fail to even note the stated goals of his own organizations. Oh well.
Note that "Western cultural imperialism" things he also hates are freedom of religion, rights for women, rights for children, democracy, etc, etc, etc.
Re:They talked about this on the "O'Reilly Factor"
on
A New Kind of War
·
· Score: 2
I agree with that, however, the current environment has made it impossible to infiltrate groups like the militant Islamic groups.
Obviously the past solution led to abuses, and the current one is not helping our "intelligence", so the point is this is a bug that needs to be patched.
BTW, I escaped Panama and just became a US citizen. For all the fault of the US government of having Noriega as an informant, it was us, the Panamenian citizens that were ultimately to blame for his rise to power. Sometimes the opressed countries also have to take responsibility.
I'm not entirely sure that he's upset that we "set foot" in his homeland, but that the Western culture is destroying the mid-East culture.
You're not entirely sure because you are civilized and you cannot fathom such a thing.
However, read any of Bin Laden's interviews and bios. He turned against the US when we set foot in the Holy land of Saudi Arabia.
And last time I checked, there were no McDonalds in Afghanistan.
Reading his documentation (thesmokinggun.com), you can also see the primary goal of his org, is to replace all "infidel" govt. with "just" Islamic radical ones like the disgusting Taliban.
So, no he doesn't want Coca Cola to leave, or McDonalds which is not there to never set foot on the wasteland that is Afghanistan, what he wants is for your sister to wear a tunic that covers her all day, he wants you to pray 5 times a day to Allah, and he wants to replace all Democracies with Theocracies that subscribe to his perverted version of Islam.
Just read up on him, trying to rationalize a religious zealot is not going to give you insight into him.
If Osama Bin Laden thinks that US citizens should die, then yes, he is guilty... of THOUGHTCRIME. The first ammendment would protect him until it was proven that he was somehow part of the planning for the specific incident.
Actually, in some states (like CA) Osama would be arrested merely by hate crime laws if you want to apply US laws to an Afghani "citizen".
And is not "if he thinks..." he has already called on his fellow "Muslims" to kill any American on sight if they can.
As for "Anti-Islamic" rethoric ? Geez, here I tought our president just had a conference from a Mosque yesterday. Contrast that with the perverted Theocracy of the Taliban, who threatened with a Jihad and blamed the US , Christian and Jews. How ecumenic ! LOL !
Slashdot Mirror
But when he touch US interests (plan to nationalize Panama canal), general Noriega becomes the great drug villain and the US invade Panama.
Years before Noriega "pinnaple face" became a general, the Panama Canal treaty was already signed thanks to the general (who many believe Noriega killed) "Omar Torrijos Herrera" and Jimmy Carter.
US turned against Noriega when he went nuts. He had doctor "Hugo Spadafora" brutally killed, which led to scandal , a whistle blower, huge peaceful opposition, a failed cup, Noriega's suspencion of Constitutional rights, etc, etc.
US invaded, hundreds of Panamenians died, no more useless Panamenian Army. End of story.
You're so off, it's hilarious.
No need to show you why since everybody already caught you in your lie.
Hey, aren't you glad you posted anonymously ? LOL !!!
His not going to take over anything, but his ultimate goal is our destruction as cheezy as that sounds.
Uh ? Are you replying to my post ???
Yes, you said before boarding a plane, but that's not what they're talking about.
:-)
Well, being that I'm not "they" let's just stick to replaying to what I'm saying, ok ?
I don't much like the cameras in public cases, although I think the crypto laws are worse, but I do think they could help a bit in some areas. It's important to point out exactly where the techology is acceptable, as well as were it isn't.
Because a surveillance society is not a free society.
Hello ? I said face recognition to board a plane.
Are you also opposed to checking ID before bording the plane ???
And there you go with the quote again. LOL !
BTW, I agree that crypto laws are meaningless, but I object to your opposition of face recognition.
What essencial right is lost by scanning your face before you enter an airplane ? By bundling these type of measures with the crypto debate, it's more likely you congressman is just going to dismiss you as a reactionary whiner and ignore your whole letter.
... while an accurate quote, it's becoming as annoying as the Nostradamous fake one. Please, no need to repeate it all the time on every thread !!!
Anybody saying a Theocracy and a Democracy are equally bad, is not worth even addressing.
Heck, do you know what are the Taliban's environmental policies ? LOL !
The unwillingness of you and people like you to recognize that the US has foreign policy, let alone that our foreign policy may not always be in the best interests of the American people... THAT sickens me.
Actually, more frustrating is your unwillingness to understand the mastermind of these attacks goals. As stated by the previous poster, is the elminication of Heathen governments like ours and their replacement with "Holy" Islamic ones.
You don't seem to want to understand that.
Do you think Bin Laden cares if we help broker peace in Israel, do you think he cares if we give more money in aid to the Middle East ?
What's his number #1 complain right now ? That we touched his Holy Land Saudi Arabia.
Please, feel free to reason and deal with fanatical opportunists like these. See how far you get.
You can blame the US all you want for this cowardly attack, that just makes the terrorist laugh their asses off.
Drop troops to rebuild the country is a great idea, but you think they would welcome this ?
The fanatical element, which is their form of government would greatly oppose it.
Maybe we should just go back to caves and kill each other with bone clubs eh ?
You've been fooled. You watched the hand the magician was waving. Have you ever the Arab press?
Please read more
Bzzzt !
Again, read the "terrorist" manual from Bin Laden's own org (which is who I was talking about).
You can make up whatever views you want, but you should read what the "enemy" writes to understand him/her.
[thesmokinggun.com]Military Studies in the Jihad Against the Tyrants
The main mission for which the Military Organization is responsible is
The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with an Islamic regime.
Please read more, indeed !
I see your point, but I am arguing right or wrong here. The type of tyrannical Theocracy in Afghanistan has no place in the 21th century, it's a relic of the Dark & Middle Ages that is about time this part of the world should have given up.
Yes, most people just see "we are right" and "they are wrong", but it's even worse than that. The opponents in this case are fuled by fanatical religious views and express feelings of ridding the world of people not only by political beliefs but by religious ones.
Just wait until one of these guys gets a hold of Nukes and you can see bye bye to the safety of "Mutually Assured Destruction".
The "Evil" Soviet Empire is starting to sound more and more like Disney Land compared to these guys.
> So, contrary to people's claims that Bin Laden hates democracy: that we are a democracy is actually probably totally irrelevant to people like him. This concept, in fact, is almost totally opposite to the real problem: that he feels that there is no legitimacy (which democracy would be one avenue of providing) to what the US does in the Middle East.
Actually, he hates a Democracy or any other form of government that is not a Theocratic radial Muslim "government" like the Taliban.
It's right there in his pronouncements and writings, and it's stated as a goal for his org, to topple our "Infidel" governments with just Islamic ones that "Allah" will bless.
As for our foreign policy, yeah he hates it, but he mainly hates the fact we had troops (with permission btw) in Saudi Arabia.
I think your point reflects other and larger groups in the ME, but not really the fanatical extremism practiced by Bin Laden. His goals and excuses are quite clear and well documented.
All that you have said is reasonable and will be done. However, one must beware of changing policy as a reaction to a terrorist act. That's exactly the goal and motivation of most acts of terrorism by definition.
...", "You are afraid to die, we are not", etc)
As for Bin Laden, we have no choice but to bring him to justice. Even if that means others come up. Being passive in the face of evil is evil itself and very impractical.
This has nothing to do with revenge or retribution, this has to do with self preservation. And one or two measures are not the solution, a myriad of options need to be considered.
But to say that capturing and bringing the culprit and others with him to justice is not necessary, is ludicrous. Pay attention to the words of the terrorist, they are counting on that same reaction.
And again, I'll say it, instead of only asking what we've done, go read the motivations from the devil's own mouth. He's said it pretty clear, he's told people to kill "Americans" whenever you can, etc.
We also can't go soft like usual with regimes and terrorist. We've been attack by this particular network before many many times, and we did nothing. The last thing we did was an innefective and dumb cruise missile attack, which that did embolden the terrorist and showed them more of our weakness, which is hesitation to act.
BTW, that one can also be shown easily by paying attention to the terrorist own words (Bin Laden's brother, in CBS interview. "You are cowards sending cruise missiles
As for being from another country ? Well at least 63 nationalities were present in that attack, chances are they killed somebody from your country too.
Let's see , what's better for the human race;
Democracy or Theocratic Fundamentalism ?
This one is a no brainer, just ask the Hindus in Afghanistan asked to wear a scarlet letter marking them as non-Muslim.
As the women who got their businesses taken away, and that are not allowed to be educated and have to be covered even with masks.
Ask the people who are sick and tired of tribal warfare, and people making up religious laws that give them no freedom.
Democracy or Theocratic Fundamentalism ?
Instead, such an act would further fuel the hate that this came from to begin with. If anything, we should investigate where this came from and try to remedy that. Take away the cause, research just *why* this could have happened and try to take away the causes of terrorism instead of just fight the effects.
The main cause of terrorism in this case has already been mouthed by Bin Laden over and over again. He's upset we set foot on Saudi Arabia, and his orginzation is interested in replacing infidel govts like ours with radical Islamic fundamentalism.
The main problem here is radicals that pervert the Islamic religion, and governments that use this religion to opress their citizenry and fund terrorist to do their dirty work.
We might not be dealing with a "traditional army", but if you train, feed, harbor and encourage the terrorist groups that's just another type of army. It's also convienient, because you say "It wasn't me" type of excuses.
If we do not that (and the Bush Administration seems incapable of it) then this is only the beginning, no matter how many countries the US would nuke away for the purpose of retaliation.
Actually, I have all the confidence that they have a good chance of succeding in eliminating at least some of the more dangerous groups.
Bush's team learned from president Clinton, that cruise misseles don't solve the problem at all.
BTW, we're not about to nuke anybody, but feel free to be alarmist and reactionary. Perhaps the studying here should be by you and why don't you place any blame on the Islamic fundamentalist, and at least one of their Theocratic government, which by the way opresses Afghans.
Oh, Afghani foreign policy after we helped them get rid of Russia ? 43 million in drought relief last year, and 9 out of 10 dollars of aid into Afghanistan come from the US.
Maybe the world community , specially Europe should try to help poor countries as well instead of depending on the US to be the one spending all the money ?
I think firing people on the current CIA hirerarchy is a good start !
...
Here's more on this
Why can't Uncle Sam spy? -
The problem is red tape, turf battles and no spies on the ground, say experts
Re:McDonalds in Afghanistan ? (Score:1)
by FFFish on Tuesday September 18, @01:38PM (#2316373)
Why would I refer to it? I don't have issue with that bit. I don't think it's an adequate explanation, but I don't care to argue it.
Because that's the main reason and motivation he has given to hate us.
You can make up all the oversimplified reasons you want, but that's pretty much it.
Feel free to rationalize the thinking of a rabid fanatic.
US government a Theocracy ? LOL !
You forgot to even refer to the primary motivation I forwarded to you, which is the single fact we set foot there. Not that we polluted anything, just that we touched Sauidi Arabia with our troops.
You also fail to even note the stated goals of his own organizations. Oh well.
Note that "Western cultural imperialism" things he also hates are freedom of religion, rights for women, rights for children, democracy, etc, etc, etc.
I agree with that, however, the current environment has made it impossible to infiltrate groups like the militant Islamic groups.
Obviously the past solution led to abuses, and the current one is not helping our "intelligence", so the point is this is a bug that needs to be patched.
BTW, I escaped Panama and just became a US citizen. For all the fault of the US government of having Noriega as an informant, it was us, the Panamenian citizens that were ultimately to blame for his rise to power. Sometimes the opressed countries also have to take responsibility.
Re:Mod parent up ! (Score:1)
I'm not entirely sure that he's upset that we "set foot" in his homeland, but that the Western culture is destroying the mid-East culture.
You're not entirely sure because you are civilized and you cannot fathom such a thing.
However, read any of Bin Laden's interviews and bios. He turned against the US when we set foot in the Holy land of Saudi Arabia.
And last time I checked, there were no McDonalds in Afghanistan.
Reading his documentation (thesmokinggun.com), you can also see the primary goal of his org, is to replace all "infidel" govt. with "just" Islamic radical ones like the disgusting Taliban.
So, no he doesn't want Coca Cola to leave, or McDonalds which is not there to never set foot on the wasteland that is Afghanistan, what he wants is for your sister to wear a tunic that covers her all day, he wants you to pray 5 times a day to Allah, and he wants to replace all Democracies with Theocracies that subscribe to his perverted version of Islam.
Just read up on him, trying to rationalize a religious zealot is not going to give you insight into him.
If Osama Bin Laden thinks that US citizens should die, then yes, he is guilty... of THOUGHTCRIME. The first ammendment would protect him until it was proven that he was somehow part of the planning for the specific incident.
..." he has already called on his fellow "Muslims" to kill any American on sight if they can.
Actually, in some states (like CA) Osama would be arrested merely by hate crime laws if you want to apply US laws to an Afghani "citizen".
And is not "if he thinks
As for "Anti-Islamic" rethoric ? Geez, here I tought our president just had a conference from a Mosque yesterday. Contrast that with the perverted Theocracy of the Taliban, who threatened with a Jihad and blamed the US , Christian and Jews. How ecumenic ! LOL !