Given that the Chinese firewall is built by western corporations, if we blocked that activity, China would have no choice but to abandon it.
They could choose to block everything completely, which is easier than filtering specific data.
No, some Opera is not better than no Opera, because no Opera isn't on the table. There's no way China could censor every mention of Opera from the internet.
I never said they would censor every mention of Opera. I said they would block Opera Mini and make it impossible to use it in China.
Yes, some Opera is better than no Opera.
And besides, who are you to make these decisions on behalf of the Chinese people? Who are you to tell them they can't have the choice? Let them decide whether they want to use Opera or not. You are in no position to make that choice for them.
The impact of airliners hitting the WTC was shown to create a massive fireball of ignited fuel. Massive amounts of BLACK smoke resulted as the fuel continued to burn. Understandable. The fuel is a hydrocarbon.
The smoke coming from the Pentagon, as shown in the video from the parking lot, was WHITE. No black smoke until much later when the building, and the objects inside, began to burn.
I guess you just answered your own question. In WTC, the plane ended up well inside the building. Of course the explosion was going to burn up stuff inside the building.
The first thing that came to mind when trying to explain the white smoke? Ever watch a rocket launch? White smoke from the burning solid fuel components.
LOL. It was a plane. Stop listening to insane conspiracy theories.
Any rational human being will realize that getting out is not an option. That's not how the world works, and it would make things worse for the Chinese people. Some Opera is better than no Opera.
As it is now, they have absolutely no reason not to cooperate. They don't lose anything from doing so.
Except goodwill among ignorant and bigoted people who think their ideology should trump the security and choice of people in China.
If we were to make Opera et al choose between China and the free world, China would lose much of the leverage it has over these companies.
Except isolating countries never worked very well. You would just have made things worse for the Chinese people. You need to stop being blinded by ideology and knee-jerk reactions, and consider the fact that it is in the best interest of the Chinese people that they are not alone, and that they have some options and ways to get online. The more ways to get online, the more possible loopholes in the firewall as well. You want to deprive the Chinese of the multiple loopholes that still exist in Opera Mini. Disgusting and extremely egotistical of you, just to stroke your own ego and push your own ideology on everyone else.
It's my understanding that they're just routing through China's existing firewalls.
What are you trying to say? Opera's Chinese servers are behind the firewall. Opera's ISP does the filtering. Opera was forced to block Chinese users from using the client that doesn't use the Chinese servers.
You're setting up a strawman, though. I didn't suggest we bar Opera, Google et al from operating in China, but that we bar them from cooperating with the censorship.
They don't have a choice. And they aren't really "cooperating" any more than someone with a gun to his head is cooperating.
I may just use your link suggestion in the future. You shouldn't dismiss this rumor so easily considering that Opera employees were involved in the discussion, and it looked like they were afraid to even talk about it out of fear that their colleagues in China would be punished for it.
History shows that isolating countries like China is just going to make things worse for the people. Also, you failed to address the fact that more services like Opera = more work for the government = more difficulty keeping control = more possible holes.
Why would I have to reword something every time I write it? I'm responding to the same inane claims, so there's no reason why I would have to rewrite it every time.
I have considered that you've posted some 4,000 near-identical shallow messages
Why should I reword it every time if I'm responding to the same ignorant drivel multiple times? Shallow? That's a laughable claim, considering that you are the shallow one who can't even come up with a valid counter-argument.
Are you arguing that Opera is really bad at implementing censorship, and so people will find ways through just by virtue of them being involved?
It isn't Opera's goal to implement censorship. They will have to do what the government tells them to do, but not anything else. It's up to the government to find all the holes and tell Opera to plug them.
Or are you arguing that they will deliberately make it easy for Chinese to evade censorship by putting in place a weak implementation?
As I said, they will probably do exactly what the government told them to do, and nothing else. And it works. There are already several ways to get around this new block.
Are jobs more important than principles?
Are principles more important than people's lives or freedom? Also, you are assuming that your narrow-minded thoughts are the only ones that can constitute "principles". The fact is, more services like Opera means more work for the government, which means more difficulty plugging all holes, which means more possible holes people can use to get around the censorship.
So no Opera is better than some Opera? Of course not. More services like Opera means more work for the government, which means more potential holes to pass through the firewall.
Huh? So you will stop using Opera over this, but you will not stop using Google services? Why?
Ask yourself this: Is China better off without Opera? My conclusion is no. Even a censored Opera is better than no Opera. Why? Simple. The more services the Government has to oversee and censor, the more difficult it will be for them to plug all cracks in the firewall. Even after this, there are workarounds in Opera Mini to avoid the firewall. So ask yourself again: Do you really think China would be better off without Opera?
What do you think would happen if they didn't comply with the demands from the government? A slap on the wrist and "carry on as usual"? That's extremely naive. Rumors have it that Opera employees in China were going to be arrested (or "mysteriously" disappear) if they didn't comply. Maybe you would prefer that?
And even if pulling completely out of China had been an option, it would have been a bad one. Don't you get it? Fewer services means less and easier work for the government when censoring. The more services, the more difficult for the government to keep track of everything, and the greater the chances of workarounds being open.
As long as Opera keeps working in China there may be ways to work around the censorship (and there are). Opera pulling out wouldn't help at all!
It's extremely short-sighted of you to assume that you know best, and that it's fine to sacrifice Opera's employees in China. It's extremely short-sighted not to see the benefit in more services meaning more potential cracks in the firewall.
If you think it's a perfectly fine thing for Opera to do, then just say that.
What were Opera's options? Do you even know what actually happened? But hey, let's not worry about sacrificing Opera's employees in China, right? Also, did you ever consider that more services like Opera Mini means more difficulty enforcing the censorship, and a higher chance of cracks in the firewall?
What do you think would happen if they didn't comply with the demands from the government? A slap on the wrist and "carry on as usual"? That's extremely naive. Rumors have it that Opera employees in China were going to be arrested (or "mysteriously" disappear) if they didn't comply. Maybe you would prefer that?
And even if pulling completely out of China had been an option, it would have been a bad one. Don't you get it? Fewer services means less and easier work for the government when censoring. The more services, the more difficult for the government to keep track of everything, and the greater the chances of workarounds being open.
As long as Opera keeps working in China there may be ways to work around the censorship (and there are). Opera pulling out wouldn't help at all!
It's extremely short-sighted of you to assume that you know best, and that it's fine to sacrifice Opera's employees in China. It's extremely short-sighted not to see the benefit in more services meaning more potential cracks in the firewall.
Also, will you stop using all Google services, if you actually do stop using Opera?
As I wrote: What do you think would happen if they didn't comply with the demands from the government? A slap on the wrist and "carry on as usual"? That's extremely naive. Rumors have it that Opera employees in China were going to be arrested (or "mysteriously" disappear) if they didn't comply. Maybe you would prefer that?
And even if pulling completely out of China had been an option, it would have been a bad one. Don't you get it? Fewer services means less and easier work for the government when censoring. The more services, the more difficult for the government to keep track of everything, and the greater the chances of workarounds being open.
As long as Opera keeps working in China there may be ways to work around the censorship (and there are). Opera pulling out wouldn't help at all!
It's extremely short-sighted of you to assume that you know best, and that it's fine to sacrifice Opera's employees in China. It's extremely short-sighted not to see the benefit in more services meaning more potential cracks in the firewall.
I've thought pretty well of Opera, until now. This is the sort of whoring that helps to give Microsoft THEIR bad name.
Whoring? What do you think would happen if they didn't comply with the demands from the government? A slap on the wrist and "carry on as usual"? That's extremely naive. Rumors have it that Opera employees in China were going to be arrested (or "mysteriously" disappear) if they didn't comply. How's that for whoring? Maybe you would prefer that?
And even if pulling completely out of China had been an option, it would have been a bad one. Don't you get it? Fewer services means less and easier work for the government when censoring. The more services, the more difficult for the government to keep track of everything, and the greater the chances of workarounds being open.
As long as Opera keeps working in China there may be ways to work around the censorship (and there are). Opera pulling out wouldn't help at all!
It's extremely short-sighted of you to assume that you know best, and that it's fine to sacrifice Opera's employees in China. It's extremely short-sighted not to see the benefit in more services meaning more potential cracks in the firewall.
Considering the rumors that the only alternative to this outcome was arrest or "sudden and mysterious disappearance" of all Opera employees in China, you seem to be a bit off the mark.
Also, it benefits the Chinese to be able to use Opera Mini. It takes a lot more time and resources to police 100 services than 1 service. So the more services, the more possible cracks in the firewall. Opera pulling out would mean no browser for the Chinese, and fewer angles of attack when trying to work out ways to get around the censorship.
Conclusion: Opera may very well have stood on their principles.
The fundamental design decision was a browser that could run on just about any phone. It just so happens that the only way to do this is with a thin client where the browser engine resides on the server.
You are worried about Opera? What about your bank? Your doctor? Your ISP? A lot of organizations and companies have wide open access to your data.
If there's just one search engine in China, it's easy for the government to monitor it. If there are 10, it takes at least 10 times as much effort to monitor all of them. With 10 rather than 1 censored search engines it's more likely that there are ways to work around the censorship that the government won't be able to plug. Case in point: You can do that with Google.
Furthermore, if they did fight China on this one, I think it would be naive to think that they did it for any other reason that as a calculated risk to gain marketshare and ultimately profit.
The rumors that all their employees in China were going to be arrested if they didn't comply may just shine a different light on the whole thing...
Slashdot Mirror
A legal monopoly is far less than even 90%.
They could choose to block everything completely, which is easier than filtering specific data.
I never said they would censor every mention of Opera. I said they would block Opera Mini and make it impossible to use it in China.
Yes, some Opera is better than no Opera.
And besides, who are you to make these decisions on behalf of the Chinese people? Who are you to tell them they can't have the choice? Let them decide whether they want to use Opera or not. You are in no position to make that choice for them.
Why would the administration want to take huge losses to its naval fleet in the middle of a war?
Nonsense. The conspiracy theories are the products of insane morons without a clue.
I guess you just answered your own question. In WTC, the plane ended up well inside the building. Of course the explosion was going to burn up stuff inside the building.
LOL. It was a plane. Stop listening to insane conspiracy theories.
Any rational human being will realize that getting out is not an option. That's not how the world works, and it would make things worse for the Chinese people. Some Opera is better than no Opera.
Except goodwill among ignorant and bigoted people who think their ideology should trump the security and choice of people in China.
Except isolating countries never worked very well. You would just have made things worse for the Chinese people. You need to stop being blinded by ideology and knee-jerk reactions, and consider the fact that it is in the best interest of the Chinese people that they are not alone, and that they have some options and ways to get online. The more ways to get online, the more possible loopholes in the firewall as well. You want to deprive the Chinese of the multiple loopholes that still exist in Opera Mini. Disgusting and extremely egotistical of you, just to stroke your own ego and push your own ideology on everyone else.
What are you trying to say? Opera's Chinese servers are behind the firewall. Opera's ISP does the filtering. Opera was forced to block Chinese users from using the client that doesn't use the Chinese servers.
They don't have a choice. And they aren't really "cooperating" any more than someone with a gun to his head is cooperating.
I may just use your link suggestion in the future. You shouldn't dismiss this rumor so easily considering that Opera employees were involved in the discussion, and it looked like they were afraid to even talk about it out of fear that their colleagues in China would be punished for it.
Invalid analogy detected.
History shows that isolating countries like China is just going to make things worse for the people. Also, you failed to address the fact that more services like Opera = more work for the government = more difficulty keeping control = more possible holes.
Nope, it was all over Twitter.
Why would I have to reword something every time I write it? I'm responding to the same inane claims, so there's no reason why I would have to rewrite it every time.
Why should I reword it every time if I'm responding to the same ignorant drivel multiple times? Shallow? That's a laughable claim, considering that you are the shallow one who can't even come up with a valid counter-argument.
It isn't Opera's goal to implement censorship. They will have to do what the government tells them to do, but not anything else. It's up to the government to find all the holes and tell Opera to plug them.
As I said, they will probably do exactly what the government told them to do, and nothing else. And it works. There are already several ways to get around this new block.
Are principles more important than people's lives or freedom? Also, you are assuming that your narrow-minded thoughts are the only ones that can constitute "principles". The fact is, more services like Opera means more work for the government, which means more difficulty plugging all holes, which means more possible holes people can use to get around the censorship.
So no Opera is better than some Opera? Of course not. More services like Opera means more work for the government, which means more potential holes to pass through the firewall.
Ask yourself this: Is China better off without Opera? My conclusion is no. Even a censored Opera is better than no Opera. Why? Simple. The more services the Government has to oversee and censor, the more difficult it will be for them to plug all cracks in the firewall. Even after this, there are workarounds in Opera Mini to avoid the firewall. So ask yourself again: Do you really think China would be better off without Opera?
And even if pulling completely out of China had been an option, it would have been a bad one. Don't you get it? Fewer services means less and easier work for the government when censoring. The more services, the more difficult for the government to keep track of everything, and the greater the chances of workarounds being open.
As long as Opera keeps working in China there may be ways to work around the censorship (and there are). Opera pulling out wouldn't help at all!
It's extremely short-sighted of you to assume that you know best, and that it's fine to sacrifice Opera's employees in China. It's extremely short-sighted not to see the benefit in more services meaning more potential cracks in the firewall.
What were Opera's options? Do you even know what actually happened? But hey, let's not worry about sacrificing Opera's employees in China, right? Also, did you ever consider that more services like Opera Mini means more difficulty enforcing the censorship, and a higher chance of cracks in the firewall?
And even if pulling completely out of China had been an option, it would have been a bad one. Don't you get it? Fewer services means less and easier work for the government when censoring. The more services, the more difficult for the government to keep track of everything, and the greater the chances of workarounds being open.
As long as Opera keeps working in China there may be ways to work around the censorship (and there are). Opera pulling out wouldn't help at all!
It's extremely short-sighted of you to assume that you know best, and that it's fine to sacrifice Opera's employees in China. It's extremely short-sighted not to see the benefit in more services meaning more potential cracks in the firewall.
Also, will you stop using all Google services, if you actually do stop using Opera?
And even if pulling completely out of China had been an option, it would have been a bad one. Don't you get it? Fewer services means less and easier work for the government when censoring. The more services, the more difficult for the government to keep track of everything, and the greater the chances of workarounds being open.
As long as Opera keeps working in China there may be ways to work around the censorship (and there are). Opera pulling out wouldn't help at all!
It's extremely short-sighted of you to assume that you know best, and that it's fine to sacrifice Opera's employees in China. It's extremely short-sighted not to see the benefit in more services meaning more potential cracks in the firewall.
Whoring? What do you think would happen if they didn't comply with the demands from the government? A slap on the wrist and "carry on as usual"? That's extremely naive. Rumors have it that Opera employees in China were going to be arrested (or "mysteriously" disappear) if they didn't comply. How's that for whoring? Maybe you would prefer that?
And even if pulling completely out of China had been an option, it would have been a bad one. Don't you get it? Fewer services means less and easier work for the government when censoring. The more services, the more difficult for the government to keep track of everything, and the greater the chances of workarounds being open.
As long as Opera keeps working in China there may be ways to work around the censorship (and there are). Opera pulling out wouldn't help at all!
It's extremely short-sighted of you to assume that you know best, and that it's fine to sacrifice Opera's employees in China. It's extremely short-sighted not to see the benefit in more services meaning more potential cracks in the firewall.
Would you change your search engine (Google) out of protest since they are doing the same thing in China?
Also, it benefits the Chinese to be able to use Opera Mini. It takes a lot more time and resources to police 100 services than 1 service. So the more services, the more possible cracks in the firewall. Opera pulling out would mean no browser for the Chinese, and fewer angles of attack when trying to work out ways to get around the censorship.
Conclusion: Opera may very well have stood on their principles.
You are worried about Opera? What about your bank? Your doctor? Your ISP? A lot of organizations and companies have wide open access to your data.
Same goes for browsers.
The rumors that all their employees in China were going to be arrested if they didn't comply may just shine a different light on the whole thing...