I am only replying to you to educate you a little. No, Libertarians do not necessarily want to abandon all government, at the very least there must be some form of justice system and punishment system as well as some military protection against foreign threats.
Libertarians are against government getting into economics and into freedoms management through things like morality laws etc.
You are full of shit. I pay sales taxes and I pay property taxes in a few places, which is what the communities need to function on a local level.
I completely am against me paying any income taxes and you should be against you paying income taxes just as well. Income tax is a way of slave ownership, you are a slave if you play by those rules.
And as to the currencies - gold is my currency. I have almost not fiat presence.
I pay sales taxes and property taxes in some places, so fuck off with your high horse bullshit.
The only correct way for government to function without getting into my private life, without sucking blood out of the small/medium businesses is a government that does not favor and create monopolies and a government that does not destroy competition by the small business, a government that does not print or borrow money that is not backed up by production, a government that does not engage into wars with tax money, a government that does not push forward their morals through laws and taxes.
The only tax model I agree to is the sales tax, and the poor can file for a tax reimbursement, they want money back from the government, they have to give up something - their personal freedoms in this case.
I am paying just enough to this world and I never agreed to the way that this world is running and is trying to treat individuals. Don't be a slave.
You have no wisdom, you are a useful idiot who believes that a government can be in principle, anything more than a slave owning power grabbing, money stealing machine.
I am against governments' involvement into everything with 3 exceptions: Justice system. Punishment system. Minimum required military to keep the enemies where they are.
You believe it is possible to reform a government in its form, where it controls economy and sets moral standards, I do not.
Spare me. My IQ etc., your normal mode of operation does not usually include patronizing anybody, circletimes.
I am not an anarchist, I am a realist. Everybody who matters today is not paying income taxes, do you understand that?
Income taxes cause destruction of society in the long run by destroying ability of the middle class to save enough to be able to run their own small/medium size businesses and this is the cause of collapse of the economy. Government makes sure that some businesses become monopolies by preferential treatment, by giving out free money, by creating income tax loopholes and by setting regulations that kill competition.
All of this while following the Keynesian ideas of trying to manipulate economy through supply of debt and creating incentives not to save, but to live on debt, which also kills ability to create small business. Governments create monopolies, who then move production to the cheapest bidders. Government destroy small/medium size businesses, which kills the trade balance. Government creates inflation and debt - the only product of their work.
I am against all income taxes, however since I am not an anarchist in principle, I support government functions that actually help society rather than destroy it, so this includes the justice system and the punishment of the guilty in transgressions against individuals or the environment, which is public and shared property and responsibility.
I am against privatizing gain while socializing damage, but almost everything governments do creates that type of environment, the moral hazards, this includes regulations, taxes, FDIC, FDA, MMS, Military spending for the sake of enriching some individuals, you name it. All of this is done so that politicians can have their share of the pie.
I am for sales taxes, some argue that this is an 'unfair' tax against the poor. Well, those people who want something from the government, they should give something back. You want to get help? Here is how: disclose your income information and if you qualify, you get back the money you paid through the sales taxes over the year. If you don't want any sales taxes to be returned to you - you don't even have to file anything.
I am against being government property, thus I organize my affairs throughout the world - bank accounts in some countries where it suits me best, business in countries where it is the most profitable, spending money in countries where I get the best bang for the buck and keeping it real - gold, not fiat paper.
My position is not a defensive one against you, you are a troll and will attack me on that principle alone, your response will surely be something impolite at best and most likely it will be an attempt at insulting me, but I don't care. I just want to be clear on what I mean and that is why I respond.
Have fun with that. Good thing it only exists inside your crazy little head.
- oh, you are wrong, not that my head is that big, but you are wrong that corporations do not own the governments today in a way that they couldn't tell government to fuck off today.
You will see how BP, who is getting funded by governments of the world, who got to be the monopoly it is by getting help from UK and US governments even in such things are killing off democratically elected government of Iran in the 1953 I believe, that company will end up telling the US government to fuck off and rightfully so. Government that treats oil as if it is heroin, setting liability limits for companies that can do massive damage (75 million? that is the FUCK OFF) Government that pays hundreds of billions to such companies in contracts while getting almost no royalties? That IS the FUCK OFF.
Government that literally has people having sex with BP personnel, taking bribes, having drug parties together? That is the FUCK OFF.
Government will bend over and take it in the ass while talking smack. Individuals in government will not go against large corporations, they know not to bite the hand that feeds them.
At the same time the corporations like BP provide better security nets for people who have pensions in such companies than governments. Of-course in this year BP will have some trouble, but trouble will go away in a year or two, they'll manage.
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Governments are owned by the banks. They are owned by the military industrial complex. They are owned by manufacturing complex. They are owned by mining companies. They are owned by medical/pharma companies and they are owned by Insurance companies etc.
All of this is precisely because governments' hands are in all of these pies through 'regulations' and various tax schemes.
Governments are slave owners and people are the slaves. Get over it and do something about it not to be one.
I completely disagree with you, can we agree on that?
I am totally against income tax for everybody, and while this will not change much for large corporations anyway (you understand this, I know, and it is not about to change no matter what people want), this will create opportunity for the middle class to save some money to start their own businesses and that is what is needed to save economies of entire countries.
Also where it concerns the poor, I don't have a problem with them getting their taxes back from the government that collected them over the year by providing information on what their income is and how much taxes they paid for necessities.
I do not approach this from your point of view completely, I am against all government intervention into lives of individuals, and I can never agree to anything that supports income tax.
However the poor, if they can show that they are indeed the poor, should get government help by getting the taxes they paid back from the government, just as they do today.
How the fuck does this outer-libertarian ranting get modded "interesting"?
- why the fuck wouldn't the above comment be modded "interesting" or "insightful"? It is extremely interesting to see any kind of support of governments and of their spending with our money. You can believe what you believe, and I can believe what I believe and many people find my position interesting and insightful whatever your objections may be.
I paid for my education, I worked all my life to get that education, however I am not against all taxes completely, there must be a way to maintain enough government systems to do the only things government must do: justice system and punishment system for transgressions as well as minimal amount spent on defense. Money for that is easy enough to generate from sales tax, the only tax that promotes business while removes incentives against over-consumption, that's the only way to keep economy going.
If you follow MY ideas to the ultimate conclusion, then you'd have a working economy that could not be destroyed by state money manipulation and you'd have no wars that are funded by states that only benefit the largest players while destroying lives of people and nations.
I am not an anarchist, I am not interested in Somalia. I believe states have one real purpose: justice system, a court system and a punishment system to punish transgressions, such as harm done to individuals and to public property and environment.
In my world no company would get any public funding at all. There would be no income tax at all. There would be sales tax, which means that consumption is not encouraged, but production is and that is the real wealth, not fiat money.
In my world states would not have money to run wars of opportunity. In my world businesses could not own governments because governments would have very limited function: justice and punishment, which is much easier to control than all of the stuff governments do now.
In my world there would be no regulations against business, but in my world any business or individual hurting other individuals or public property (environment) would be punished severely both materially and criminally.
What do I do to live by my principles? My affairs are spread out between countries, bank accounts are where it suits me best, business is where it suits me best while I make any purchases again, in places that suit me best. It's about optimizing the life to get out of being a state slave.
The only tax system that is fair and does not discriminate against doing business is sales tax. That's the only tax system that does not create incentives against doing business and rather creates incentives against consumption for no production purposes. That is the only tax system I can support, the income tax is the tax that kills small / medium size business on one hand by not allowing middle class people to save enough money to start their own business while also this is the kind of tax that is the easiest to get around if you are a large corporation and they are also right to do what they can to get away from it.
Again, I am the guy who posted the original comment and I am completely against any income tax and I do consider it to be duty of everyone to avoid it as best as they can.
State must not receive any money from income of individuals or companies, this is the way to make people into slaves while using all that money for war and various state promoted 'moral' incentives, which I believe everybody should be completely against.
I am the guy that posted the original comment. I am not American, I travel most of my life, I have bank accounts in different countries, my business is in different countries from where my bank accounts are and I spend my money for pleasure in other countries, where I have no business or bank accounts. I live by my principles, money of a state do not matter to me in any way, I hold most money in gold. Cheers.
It is everybody's personal responsibility not to pay any taxes to the best of their abilities. A municipality, a regional or a federal government wants to know what you are doing? Let them hire investigators and follow you for a while.
The best idea is to have an off-shore bank account where money is deposited by the employer, a bank account in a country where they don't harass people for being industrious. Since this is about IT, it is obviously easy to avoid any kind of problem with normal import/export laws, all the work is done over the net, so make sure to use encrypted channels, you'll be fine.
'Society' sticking its long nose into affairs of an individual must not be tolerated by the individual, he/she must do everything possible to not let this to happen or at least not to let it happen in an effective way.
We all must avoid taxes, we all must avoid being property of the state.
China will dominate the worlds energy market, it comes with the territory of the largest population in the world, I don't see what you are shuddering about.
The problem with economy and it collapsing is the government getting into it all over the place, there should be less of it, not more.
I don't understand this, the people who wrote this 'letter' to the president are rich, look at the names. So they can start a company to create new energy production facilities etc. but they decide to write to the administration as if it is as urgent as a nuclear weapon about to be created and unleashed by a warmonger. Einstein obviously was concerned about a new weapon that Germany could develop and use to completely dominate the globe, Gates and Co. looks like are hoping for the government to get into yet another money laundering scheme.
If these guys think their ideas are worth a try and may work they should invest their money, they'll be rich beyond their wild dreams (hard to do, considering who they are, but still).
BP is getting billions of dollars from government contracts of all kinds, looks like this new initiative is about the same thing.
Build factories and make your energy generating equipment and see if you can compete with it and deliver something people will buy, why are you trying to involve the administration into this? The only thing that comes to mind is yet another money laundering scheme, a Halliburton/BP level scheme.
Oh yeah, some 30-60 thousand troops are going to do what against Chinese and Russians exactly? Don't forget that Pakistan may be interested in those minerals just as well as India, not too far away and there is the entire Middle East right there.
I understood your argument the first time, thank you for not understanding mine. MY point was that I did not understand why were you replying with that to my comment?
Rewarded? Isn't the entire point to contemplate on yet another idea no matter how useless or useful, 'good' or 'bad'? The process of talking things out, maybe that's the reward, or what is it?
Regulation in the long term is what kills economy, that and money printing. I guess we are coming up on the far end of the long term, we are witnessing what the end looks like.
You cannot fix the willfully ignorant, but I was not referring to those lost cases. I am talking about people who are not willfully ignorant, but are ignorant due to the circumstances and/or lack of ability. Those people can gain from being able to get very quick access to various information that is easy to retrieve.
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I am only replying to you to educate you a little. No, Libertarians do not necessarily want to abandon all government, at the very least there must be some form of justice system and punishment system as well as some military protection against foreign threats.
Libertarians are against government getting into economics and into freedoms management through things like morality laws etc.
I am quite certain, that you have answered to somebody who was not me.
I also totally do not care about your opinion, you continue doing what you are doing, I'll keep my part.
The community is not what it used to be, I am part of an Internet community more than of any physical one, after all, here we are, talking.
As to being an asshole, I really wish more people were assholes in that particular way, society would have been better off.
You are full of shit. I pay sales taxes and I pay property taxes in a few places, which is what the communities need to function on a local level.
I completely am against me paying any income taxes and you should be against you paying income taxes just as well. Income tax is a way of slave ownership, you are a slave if you play by those rules.
And as to the currencies - gold is my currency. I have almost not fiat presence.
I pay sales taxes and property taxes in some places, so fuck off with your high horse bullshit.
The only correct way for government to function without getting into my private life, without sucking blood out of the small/medium businesses is a government that does not favor and create monopolies and a government that does not destroy competition by the small business, a government that does not print or borrow money that is not backed up by production, a government that does not engage into wars with tax money, a government that does not push forward their morals through laws and taxes.
The only tax model I agree to is the sales tax, and the poor can file for a tax reimbursement, they want money back from the government, they have to give up something - their personal freedoms in this case.
I am paying just enough to this world and I never agreed to the way that this world is running and is trying to treat individuals. Don't be a slave.
You have no wisdom, you are a useful idiot who believes that a government can be in principle, anything more than a slave owning power grabbing, money stealing machine.
I am against governments' involvement into everything with 3 exceptions: Justice system. Punishment system. Minimum required military to keep the enemies where they are.
You believe it is possible to reform a government in its form, where it controls economy and sets moral standards, I do not.
Well that was quite a useless comment, nothing of any value to the topic.
Spare me. My IQ etc., your normal mode of operation does not usually include patronizing anybody, circletimes.
I am not an anarchist, I am a realist. Everybody who matters today is not paying income taxes, do you understand that?
Income taxes cause destruction of society in the long run by destroying ability of the middle class to save enough to be able to run their own small/medium size businesses and this is the cause of collapse of the economy. Government makes sure that some businesses become monopolies by preferential treatment, by giving out free money, by creating income tax loopholes and by setting regulations that kill competition.
All of this while following the Keynesian ideas of trying to manipulate economy through supply of debt and creating incentives not to save, but to live on debt, which also kills ability to create small business. Governments create monopolies, who then move production to the cheapest bidders. Government destroy small/medium size businesses, which kills the trade balance. Government creates inflation and debt - the only product of their work.
I am against all income taxes, however since I am not an anarchist in principle, I support government functions that actually help society rather than destroy it, so this includes the justice system and the punishment of the guilty in transgressions against individuals or the environment, which is public and shared property and responsibility.
I am against privatizing gain while socializing damage, but almost everything governments do creates that type of environment, the moral hazards, this includes regulations, taxes, FDIC, FDA, MMS, Military spending for the sake of enriching some individuals, you name it. All of this is done so that politicians can have their share of the pie.
I am for sales taxes, some argue that this is an 'unfair' tax against the poor. Well, those people who want something from the government, they should give something back. You want to get help? Here is how: disclose your income information and if you qualify, you get back the money you paid through the sales taxes over the year. If you don't want any sales taxes to be returned to you - you don't even have to file anything.
I am against being government property, thus I organize my affairs throughout the world - bank accounts in some countries where it suits me best, business in countries where it is the most profitable, spending money in countries where I get the best bang for the buck and keeping it real - gold, not fiat paper.
My position is not a defensive one against you, you are a troll and will attack me on that principle alone, your response will surely be something impolite at best and most likely it will be an attempt at insulting me, but I don't care. I just want to be clear on what I mean and that is why I respond.
Have fun with that. Good thing it only exists inside your crazy little head.
- oh, you are wrong, not that my head is that big, but you are wrong that corporations do not own the governments today in a way that they couldn't tell government to fuck off today.
You will see how BP, who is getting funded by governments of the world, who got to be the monopoly it is by getting help from UK and US governments even in such things are killing off democratically elected government of Iran in the 1953 I believe, that company will end up telling the US government to fuck off and rightfully so. Government that treats oil as if it is heroin, setting liability limits for companies that can do massive damage (75 million? that is the FUCK OFF) Government that pays hundreds of billions to such companies in contracts while getting almost no royalties? That IS the FUCK OFF.
Government that literally has people having sex with BP personnel, taking bribes, having drug parties together? That is the FUCK OFF.
Government will bend over and take it in the ass while talking smack. Individuals in government will not go against large corporations, they know not to bite the hand that feeds them.
At the same time the corporations like BP provide better security nets for people who have pensions in such companies than governments. Of-course in this year BP will have some trouble, but trouble will go away in a year or two, they'll manage.
--
Governments are owned by the banks. They are owned by the military industrial complex. They are owned by manufacturing complex. They are owned by mining companies. They are owned by medical/pharma companies and they are owned by Insurance companies etc.
All of this is precisely because governments' hands are in all of these pies through 'regulations' and various tax schemes.
Governments are slave owners and people are the slaves. Get over it and do something about it not to be one.
Your nice and clean definition is so flawed, starting with the fact that I am not an American...
I completely disagree with you, can we agree on that?
I am totally against income tax for everybody, and while this will not change much for large corporations anyway (you understand this, I know, and it is not about to change no matter what people want), this will create opportunity for the middle class to save some money to start their own businesses and that is what is needed to save economies of entire countries.
Also where it concerns the poor, I don't have a problem with them getting their taxes back from the government that collected them over the year by providing information on what their income is and how much taxes they paid for necessities.
I do not approach this from your point of view completely, I am against all government intervention into lives of individuals, and I can never agree to anything that supports income tax.
However the poor, if they can show that they are indeed the poor, should get government help by getting the taxes they paid back from the government, just as they do today.
How the fuck does this outer-libertarian ranting get modded "interesting"?
- why the fuck wouldn't the above comment be modded "interesting" or "insightful"? It is extremely interesting to see any kind of support of governments and of their spending with our money. You can believe what you believe, and I can believe what I believe and many people find my position interesting and insightful whatever your objections may be.
I paid for my education, I worked all my life to get that education, however I am not against all taxes completely, there must be a way to maintain enough government systems to do the only things government must do: justice system and punishment system for transgressions as well as minimal amount spent on defense. Money for that is easy enough to generate from sales tax, the only tax that promotes business while removes incentives against over-consumption, that's the only way to keep economy going.
If you follow MY ideas to the ultimate conclusion, then you'd have a working economy that could not be destroyed by state money manipulation and you'd have no wars that are funded by states that only benefit the largest players while destroying lives of people and nations.
I am not an anarchist, I am not interested in Somalia. I believe states have one real purpose: justice system, a court system and a punishment system to punish transgressions, such as harm done to individuals and to public property and environment.
In my world no company would get any public funding at all. There would be no income tax at all. There would be sales tax, which means that consumption is not encouraged, but production is and that is the real wealth, not fiat money.
In my world states would not have money to run wars of opportunity. In my world businesses could not own governments because governments would have very limited function: justice and punishment, which is much easier to control than all of the stuff governments do now.
In my world there would be no regulations against business, but in my world any business or individual hurting other individuals or public property (environment) would be punished severely both materially and criminally.
What do I do to live by my principles? My affairs are spread out between countries, bank accounts are where it suits me best, business is where it suits me best while I make any purchases again, in places that suit me best. It's about optimizing the life to get out of being a state slave.
The only tax system that is fair and does not discriminate against doing business is sales tax. That's the only tax system that does not create incentives against doing business and rather creates incentives against consumption for no production purposes. That is the only tax system I can support, the income tax is the tax that kills small / medium size business on one hand by not allowing middle class people to save enough money to start their own business while also this is the kind of tax that is the easiest to get around if you are a large corporation and they are also right to do what they can to get away from it.
Again, I am the guy who posted the original comment and I am completely against any income tax and I do consider it to be duty of everyone to avoid it as best as they can.
State must not receive any money from income of individuals or companies, this is the way to make people into slaves while using all that money for war and various state promoted 'moral' incentives, which I believe everybody should be completely against.
I am the guy that posted the original comment. I am not American, I travel most of my life, I have bank accounts in different countries, my business is in different countries from where my bank accounts are and I spend my money for pleasure in other countries, where I have no business or bank accounts. I live by my principles, money of a state do not matter to me in any way, I hold most money in gold. Cheers.
It is everybody's personal responsibility not to pay any taxes to the best of their abilities. A municipality, a regional or a federal government wants to know what you are doing? Let them hire investigators and follow you for a while.
The best idea is to have an off-shore bank account where money is deposited by the employer, a bank account in a country where they don't harass people for being industrious. Since this is about IT, it is obviously easy to avoid any kind of problem with normal import/export laws, all the work is done over the net, so make sure to use encrypted channels, you'll be fine.
'Society' sticking its long nose into affairs of an individual must not be tolerated by the individual, he/she must do everything possible to not let this to happen or at least not to let it happen in an effective way.
We all must avoid taxes, we all must avoid being property of the state.
China will dominate the worlds energy market, it comes with the territory of the largest population in the world, I don't see what you are shuddering about.
The problem with economy and it collapsing is the government getting into it all over the place, there should be less of it, not more.
I don't understand this, the people who wrote this 'letter' to the president are rich, look at the names. So they can start a company to create new energy production facilities etc. but they decide to write to the administration as if it is as urgent as a nuclear weapon about to be created and unleashed by a warmonger. Einstein obviously was concerned about a new weapon that Germany could develop and use to completely dominate the globe, Gates and Co. looks like are hoping for the government to get into yet another money laundering scheme.
If these guys think their ideas are worth a try and may work they should invest their money, they'll be rich beyond their wild dreams (hard to do, considering who they are, but still).
BP is getting billions of dollars from government contracts of all kinds, looks like this new initiative is about the same thing.
Build factories and make your energy generating equipment and see if you can compete with it and deliver something people will buy, why are you trying to involve the administration into this? The only thing that comes to mind is yet another money laundering scheme, a Halliburton/BP level scheme.
Russians have been launching Proton as well as Soyuz rockets and put a few modules of the ISS onto orbit.
Oh yeah, some 30-60 thousand troops are going to do what against Chinese and Russians exactly? Don't forget that Pakistan may be interested in those minerals just as well as India, not too far away and there is the entire Middle East right there.
I see what you are now, a little angry troll. Bye bye troll.
I understood your argument the first time, thank you for not understanding mine. MY point was that I did not understand why were you replying with that to my comment?
Rewarded? Isn't the entire point to contemplate on yet another idea no matter how useless or useful, 'good' or 'bad'? The process of talking things out, maybe that's the reward, or what is it?
Regulation in the long term is what kills economy, that and money printing. I guess we are coming up on the far end of the long term, we are witnessing what the end looks like.
You cannot fix the willfully ignorant, but I was not referring to those lost cases. I am talking about people who are not willfully ignorant, but are ignorant due to the circumstances and/or lack of ability. Those people can gain from being able to get very quick access to various information that is easy to retrieve.