The rules by which your "magician" operates are readily available and A abd B both had other options if they didn't like those rules
- lies, lies, lies. The system was changed very recently and A and B are not even aware of the change. The system became something else from what it was intended to be.
Companies were traded on merit. People were investing or shorting based on merit. Then came the HFT systems. There was no merit, there was no intention of investing. Everything HFTs are doing is stealing. They use their super fast systems, located within a microsecond computer time distance away from the trading floor, UNLIKE A and B. HFTs use their systems to 'read news' and decide the market movement based on this NOT for investing, only to figure out the market general direction.
None of this is investing, it is all about theft, it will destroy the market.
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the situation, that's why I would be coming with a few guys that like to work for me because I pay well enough for them and we bring the right tools for the job.
No. The actual owner sells it at minimum of 9.80. The buyer will pay a maximum of 10.
Then there is a 'magician', who gets into their heads for a millisecond to read their thoughts and decides to make 19 or 20 cents on the transaction that would have been done just fine without him and tricks the real participants without them even noticing.
Taking your thoughts and picking pockets quickly so that nobody notices to move something minus 20 cents from pocket of one to pocket of another = theft.
you can now come up with how this is not theft, irrelevant to me. I would shoot this 'magician' in the eye with a 30 millimeter cannon.
Creating and canceling orders all within milliseconds so as to check the willingness of the purchase or sale request is what is happening.
If you want to buy 10000 shares for $10 each, it means you are willing to accept up to 10000 shares at any price up to $10. Say the market is at $9.80. The flash orders are created in say batches of 100 shares, say at $9.85, $9.90, $9.95, $10, $10.05. They noticed you were buying up to and including at $10, but did not bite at $10.05. Now they do another 1 or 2 flashes and figure out that you are willing to buy at $10, so they offer to you $9.99. You are buying from them while they are buying away from someone at 9.80 tops.
They just made 19 cents on your ass, but not because the market was willing to do it, they figured out your hidden information: what is your price limit. This is the piece of information that they figured out that allowed them to steal from you, the market did not need you to buy at your maximum and you did not need to buy every share at that maximum either.
You were willing to buy at 10, sure, but that means you were willing to buy at MAXIMUM 10.
There was no real supply at 9.99, they created the 'supply' for your specifically and immediately.
You saying that those transactions are 'freely-entered-into' makes no sense and is false. The transactions between parties A and B do not intend to include intermediary transactions between A and C and then C and B.
I can repeat it another time: this is clearly theft.
I do not misunderstand. They first sell to one and then buy from the other, the transaction does not happen between the real buyer and seller, it happens between HFT thief->buyer, seller->HFT thief.
What we are observing right now has not happened in human history before. The West sees its jobs disappear and move to the East while it is no longer the nation that saves and lends, it is in deep debt. This is not going to be like before because the setup is different. What is coming is a collapse of the dollar.
certainly the stocks themselves have become the products that are bought and sold and they are dipping and raising suddenly due only to the manipulation that mostly has nothing to do with the actual company behind them (unless the company is doing the manipulation of-course).
No question that the era of investors putting money into a business and getting dividends with publicly traded companies is gone, in the West at least. It is all manipulation, but HFTs are so blatant and nothing is done about it, where are the regulators? Well, they don't understand the game and the top brass is in on it.
Furniture that is collectible obviously. Stamps also can be collectible or not, same with everything.
Whatever you are buying, my point is valid: this market is rigged and it will collapse, since it is based on free money that is printed by the Fed and that is loaned to financial firms at no cost, who turn around and play with it in various ways. The next 'bubble' is in Treasury bills (but it is all the same bubble, all the way back, the housing, the tech bubble in the nineties.) The point is that all of this is the bubble of the free money that is being given by the government to the preferred people, corporations. They are sucking out the value of whatever used to be produced and saved, they are almost done now. It will collapse and then the prices will skyrocket because the money itself will be worth no more than the silly paper it is printed on.
Food, energy, nonperishable goods, collectibles, weapons probably, any of that is better than playing in this rigged game unless you are playing with free money, unless you are the preferred financial institution and are getting free money, unless you own these HFT machines.
Straight from TFA, 4MILLION HFT transactions on that hardware per second. Whether all of them end up in a real purchase or a sale or whether they are done TO PUSH the prices up or down and immediately canceled, every transaction they do there is another theft.
If you have a $100 and you are holding it in paper at home for 10 years, then it means that in this time you have lost at least half of the purchasing value of your paper, so your purchase power has gone down from $100 to $50. That is quite a fair estimate of inflation in normal conditions. Question is: are you OK with it?
Due to the fact that there is always someone who is willing to do extra work to live better than the rest, some new money will be created from the value of the work that is done by these individuals. Of-course what happens now is that the brightest and best connected/educated individuals have figured out that the most money can be made by stealing, not by providing services that people want, and that's the problem with trading on stock market. It started as a good idea: stock released by a company to collect capital to create something of value that will pay back in dividends, instead the actual stock (the paper) itself became the product that is sold and bought, the dividends are not what is being sought. Of-course there are still long term investors, who invest into solid companies with solid products (it's Asia mostly now) and they still do get paid dividends. It really used to be the primary objective: collect money from investors now, use the money to grow business and investors get paid.
Stock market today has little to do with this idea, it is no longer relevant what the business does, how the company is doing, it is about buying and selling the paper (electronically). It is all about manipulation and shorting at this point by these market makers who have enormous power because they see all the bets.
The stock market is completely rigged right now, just like a bad casino, where the house knows all the cards in everybody's hands but it does not bet against people directly, it just gets in between a bet that is made by two parties and it covertly makes 2 other bets with these same people, but it's done so fast that these parties do not even know about it, it's like a magic trick.
In reality it should have never been allowed for private interests to control the information about everyone's bets this way without any oversight (and nobody really checks anything anymore, it is obvious that the government officials are in on it and also do not understand the game.)
It's all screwed up. The best bet at this point is to buy real things: coins, stamps, furniture, energy, canned food, whatever and to avoid wasting your money in these market conditions. This market will flop soon, it will implode because it is hollow and heavy at the same time.
so the buyer sells lower and the seller buys higher.
- a typo obviously. Buyer buys higher and seller sells lower than anticipated. The HFT transaction takes the edges. There is no value for economy other than the bank account of the HFT transaction owner becomes bigger. They didn't care about what was bought, what was sold, they have no idea what is happening with what is bought/sold, they are taking money from participants who may, in theory, have done something productive with it. Of-course that's not what happens. Just understand, that many people who own mutual funds and other investments are the suckers in this game of stealing the penny from the 'tray for everyone', to put in Office Space terms, so that/. would understand.
I dream that this entire high frequency scam is declared illegal and all involved are placed where they belong with all of their property confiscated.
Here is what happens when HFT is done: 2 parties agree on a price, the HFT meddles with in a way, that takes out money from the transaction, so the buyer sells lower and the seller buys higher. That little bit of difference is stolen by HFT.
These are thieves, we are discussing here, understand that. So they found a way to make some profit on their infrastructure? Well, great for them. 4,000,000 transactions per second they are talking about for one shop. That's 4,000,000 thefts per second.
Slashdot Mirror
From 170000 years ago (a state much closer to the default): Bam, I hit your head, you dead, I take your skins and women.
As an avid Tetris player, I must inquire when it is that one is given the "competitive level hardcore pro" title in Tetris?
-
Watch this to the end, you'll see.
The rules by which your "magician" operates are readily available and A abd B both had other options if they didn't like those rules
- lies, lies, lies. The system was changed very recently and A and B are not even aware of the change. The system became something else from what it was intended to be.
Companies were traded on merit. People were investing or shorting based on merit. Then came the HFT systems. There was no merit, there was no intention of investing. Everything HFTs are doing is stealing. They use their super fast systems, located within a microsecond computer time distance away from the trading floor, UNLIKE A and B. HFTs use their systems to 'read news' and decide the market movement based on this NOT for investing, only to figure out the market general direction.
None of this is investing, it is all about theft, it will destroy the market.
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the situation, that's why I would be coming with a few guys that like to work for me because I pay well enough for them and we bring the right tools for the job.
True, the default for your car is also not to be ownable, I'll be taking it now.
No. The actual owner sells it at minimum of 9.80. The buyer will pay a maximum of 10.
Then there is a 'magician', who gets into their heads for a millisecond to read their thoughts and decides to make 19 or 20 cents on the transaction that would have been done just fine without him and tricks the real participants without them even noticing.
Taking your thoughts and picking pockets quickly so that nobody notices to move something minus 20 cents from pocket of one to pocket of another = theft.
you can now come up with how this is not theft, irrelevant to me. I would shoot this 'magician' in the eye with a 30 millimeter cannon.
Theft - when someone takes something that does not belong to him and gets away with it.
Creating and canceling orders all within milliseconds so as to check the willingness of the purchase or sale request is what is happening.
If you want to buy 10000 shares for $10 each, it means you are willing to accept up to 10000 shares at any price up to $10. Say the market is at $9.80. The flash orders are created in say batches of 100 shares, say at $9.85, $9.90, $9.95, $10, $10.05. They noticed you were buying up to and including at $10, but did not bite at $10.05. Now they do another 1 or 2 flashes and figure out that you are willing to buy at $10, so they offer to you $9.99. You are buying from them while they are buying away from someone at 9.80 tops.
They just made 19 cents on your ass, but not because the market was willing to do it, they figured out your hidden information: what is your price limit. This is the piece of information that they figured out that allowed them to steal from you, the market did not need you to buy at your maximum and you did not need to buy every share at that maximum either.
You were willing to buy at 10, sure, but that means you were willing to buy at MAXIMUM 10.
There was no real supply at 9.99, they created the 'supply' for your specifically and immediately.
You saying that those transactions are 'freely-entered-into' makes no sense and is false. The transactions between parties A and B do not intend to include intermediary transactions between A and C and then C and B.
I can repeat it another time: this is clearly theft.
By the way, 4 days from now is the 12th of April. April 12, 1961 will be then 49 years ago. Where is the Mars colony?
There's no "killer app" for putting people in space.
- sure there is.
Sorry, sorry, too soon?
The OTHER thing that the HFT provides the market with is DATA on who is the criminal asshole.
you know, it is VERY telling that most of the replies to my post are from Anonymous Cowards.
Do I believe that people have a 'RIGHT' to make profit? No.
Do I believe that HFT provide anything but harm to the market? Yes.
I do. YMMV.
I do not misunderstand. They first sell to one and then buy from the other, the transaction does not happen between the real buyer and seller, it happens between HFT thief->buyer, seller->HFT thief.
they what? You LIE GODDAMNIT, YOU LIE!!!
sob sob sob sob
Some people might argue that teaching teens how to use seatbelts somehow makes them more likely to drive recklessly.
- poor analogy to the story at hand.
It is more like teaching kids about using seatbelts leads to them stealing cars and driving.
What we are observing right now has not happened in human history before. The West sees its jobs disappear and move to the East while it is no longer the nation that saves and lends, it is in deep debt. This is not going to be like before because the setup is different. What is coming is a collapse of the dollar.
Just because you are OK with this theft does not make it any less of theft, just shows what you are.
certainly the stocks themselves have become the products that are bought and sold and they are dipping and raising suddenly due only to the manipulation that mostly has nothing to do with the actual company behind them (unless the company is doing the manipulation of-course).
No question that the era of investors putting money into a business and getting dividends with publicly traded companies is gone, in the West at least. It is all manipulation, but HFTs are so blatant and nothing is done about it, where are the regulators? Well, they don't understand the game and the top brass is in on it.
Furniture that is collectible obviously. Stamps also can be collectible or not, same with everything.
Whatever you are buying, my point is valid: this market is rigged and it will collapse, since it is based on free money that is printed by the Fed and that is loaned to financial firms at no cost, who turn around and play with it in various ways. The next 'bubble' is in Treasury bills (but it is all the same bubble, all the way back, the housing, the tech bubble in the nineties.) The point is that all of this is the bubble of the free money that is being given by the government to the preferred people, corporations. They are sucking out the value of whatever used to be produced and saved, they are almost done now. It will collapse and then the prices will skyrocket because the money itself will be worth no more than the silly paper it is printed on.
Food, energy, nonperishable goods, collectibles, weapons probably, any of that is better than playing in this rigged game unless you are playing with free money, unless you are the preferred financial institution and are getting free money, unless you own these HFT machines.
Straight from TFA, 4MILLION HFT transactions on that hardware per second. Whether all of them end up in a real purchase or a sale or whether they are done TO PUSH the prices up or down and immediately canceled, every transaction they do there is another theft.
If you have a $100 and you are holding it in paper at home for 10 years, then it means that in this time you have lost at least half of the purchasing value of your paper, so your purchase power has gone down from $100 to $50. That is quite a fair estimate of inflation in normal conditions. Question is: are you OK with it?
Due to the fact that there is always someone who is willing to do extra work to live better than the rest, some new money will be created from the value of the work that is done by these individuals. Of-course what happens now is that the brightest and best connected/educated individuals have figured out that the most money can be made by stealing, not by providing services that people want, and that's the problem with trading on stock market. It started as a good idea: stock released by a company to collect capital to create something of value that will pay back in dividends, instead the actual stock (the paper) itself became the product that is sold and bought, the dividends are not what is being sought. Of-course there are still long term investors, who invest into solid companies with solid products (it's Asia mostly now) and they still do get paid dividends. It really used to be the primary objective: collect money from investors now, use the money to grow business and investors get paid.
Stock market today has little to do with this idea, it is no longer relevant what the business does, how the company is doing, it is about buying and selling the paper (electronically). It is all about manipulation and shorting at this point by these market makers who have enormous power because they see all the bets.
The stock market is completely rigged right now, just like a bad casino, where the house knows all the cards in everybody's hands but it does not bet against people directly, it just gets in between a bet that is made by two parties and it covertly makes 2 other bets with these same people, but it's done so fast that these parties do not even know about it, it's like a magic trick.
In reality it should have never been allowed for private interests to control the information about everyone's bets this way without any oversight (and nobody really checks anything anymore, it is obvious that the government officials are in on it and also do not understand the game.)
It's all screwed up. The best bet at this point is to buy real things: coins, stamps, furniture, energy, canned food, whatever and to avoid wasting your money in these market conditions. This market will flop soon, it will implode because it is hollow and heavy at the same time.
so the buyer sells lower and the seller buys higher.
- a typo obviously. Buyer buys higher and seller sells lower than anticipated. The HFT transaction takes the edges. There is no value for economy other than the bank account of the HFT transaction owner becomes bigger. They didn't care about what was bought, what was sold, they have no idea what is happening with what is bought/sold, they are taking money from participants who may, in theory, have done something productive with it. Of-course that's not what happens. Just understand, that many people who own mutual funds and other investments are the suckers in this game of stealing the penny from the 'tray for everyone', to put in Office Space terms, so that /. would understand.
I dream that this entire high frequency scam is declared illegal and all involved are placed where they belong with all of their property confiscated.
Here is what happens when HFT is done: 2 parties agree on a price, the HFT meddles with in a way, that takes out money from the transaction, so the buyer sells lower and the seller buys higher. That little bit of difference is stolen by HFT.
These are thieves, we are discussing here, understand that. So they found a way to make some profit on their infrastructure? Well, great for them. 4,000,000 transactions per second they are talking about for one shop. That's 4,000,000 thefts per second.