I think what alot of people get confused about IMHO, when debating what medium can be considered art. Is what the intention was when making it.
For starters. Any medium can be art, whether it's programming, photography, painting, drawing, music, graphic, scuplture, gardening, engineering, whatever.
I think what makes art. Is whether it was made for no real perpous. IE. the person might really like doing it. Might want to express feeling about something, might be bored, experimenting. Heaps of reasons. But the key is. It wasn't talored to meet any requirements. It wasn't made for a specific perpous or anything.
Design on the other had. Is made for a specific perpous. There are restrictions, requirements that have to be meet. There is a deffinit goal to be achived at the end.
Whether that be painting a portrait for someone, designing a magazine cover, making an OS for a computer, a fashion shoot, architecture, a tool etc...
I think, you'll find, that if you look at all the great art thoughout history, that it was made like I said: No specific perpous (I really do need to learn how to spell that word). It was created because the person just feel like doing it. Probably becasue they enjoyed it, and/or it meant something to them etc...
Of course. Art and design do quite oftern mix together in the real world. Just look at a fasion mag, the building you work in, you mouse (an the rest of the computer). Most probably, there is a bit of art in there mixed in with the design, and visa versa.
"Art is anything that isn't readily uniquely produceable in mass quanities - yes that means that pop-lollipop CD's aren't art but that the Linux kernel is. Fine art is any art that is both rare and hard to create, in any quantity."
I don't think a Linux kernel is art. I think it is more designed. IE, you designed it to do a certian thing.
Art is sort of more self expression. Design, all though it may seem like art in some mediums (graphics, painting etc). Is not art. It's doing something (quite oftern for someone else) for a specific reason.
EG. I'm a "web designer". If I made a website for some shop. I'd consider it design (There was a reason, and there where specific requirements for it). If I made a website for my self. For no real resason other than say, I felt like it. I was bored. I really to do it, self expression. Then think it would be art.
"Internet Explorer is free, you dont have to pay, so you dont have any right to complain. Dont use it if you dont like it."
Huh? Just because it's free. It means that I'm not allowed to complain about it? Hell, I could complain about it all I want about it, even if was GLP. I'm not sure what give you the idea that complaining is somehow illegal if you get it for free.
Also. I have to use it. I'm a web designer, that requiers me to try it on all major browsers.
It's also one of the few browsers that supports standards (not ver well, but still better than others).
Considering MS ship it with their OS, and most people don't bother to install another browser. I feel as if I'm allowd to complain about it as much as I want on the behalf of those people.
If people didn't complain about IE. It would still be as bad as it was at v.3.
"If you want complete control over layout, don't use HTML - use TeX."
No.. If you want contol over layout, use CSS. Thats what it was made for. Casscading style sheets. Using text to conrol layout is just as bad as using HTML to do it.
"The fact that the more anal-retentive want to dictate precisely how things should look is irrelevant"
It may come to a suprise to you. But some people like this. It adds a bit of life to the web, it makes it interesting. And there are also proper reasons to layout a page too. Somehow, you seem to think, that plane vanilla HTML has something against 1000 or so years of design history.
Design isn't just there to make stuff look pretty, it's there to serve a perpose too.
Maybe you should redirect you anger towards the web browser makers, and the web-designers that don't know how to design properly.
I'm sick to death of this "I want the page to look how I want it, not how some designer thinks" bullshit, as a deffence to supporting CSS and other standards. The fact is. If these standards are supported. And designers use them properly. you can have the page exactly how you like it. But other people can also have the option to see it how the designer wanted to. Everybody wins.
How many times dose this need to be said before the/. crowd understands this--what I though was a--simple concept.
"With a CRT, an electron gun sprays electrons on to a screen, and they are moved magnetically to the right position. So there is no physical object that corresponds to a display pixel. This means that you can theoretically have an unlimited number of resolutions on a CRT."
Sort of... don'f foget the little bits of phospher of what ever it's called. Spray a few water droplets on your monitor, and you will see lots of little 'pixels', each one with a r,g,b part.
"That's the minimum speed, below which we lose the impression of continous motion and start to see seperate images (actually, 18fps is roughly the min"
Acctualy, it's 12fps. You can still whatch something at 12fps and have your eyes tricked into thinking it's something moving. As opposed to just a whole lot of pictures changing.
Another thing I might as well add. While you maynot notice the difference between 30fps and 150fps. If one was to rotate the camera fast, or film a car driving past. There would be more motion blur at the lower speed.
Even with all the fancy techology today. there are still shots that you can't shoot on film (24fps) because of motion blur and the like.
Yes, but the average Joe B doesn't see it like that. They read the tag and it says "SDMI protected player" (or something like that)... Hmmmm.. thats got to be a good feature or else they wouldn't put it on the box.
And Joe Salesman might no know, or care if Joe B dosn't know what SMDI means.
Sure he might find out after. But is he really likey to take it back to the store now? Probably not. He'll just live with it.
Unless you hunt around for the lost chapers, which overwrite the ending of mostly harmless.
I'm not sure where exactly they take over (I assumed it was Mostly Harmless, and not any of the earler ones). They also must have been writen recently to, as he mentions USB in it.
:More relevantly, why should you have rights to a culture that is yours?"
Well, you got me there... Why should you have rights to your self?
"Most cultures would be happy to have knowledge of themselves spread around the world, especially in educating children."
Damn right there. But I bet most cultures wouldn't want there knoledge cut up, and rearranged so it isn't true though. I played that game for a while. And it didn't educucate anyone about Maori tribes or tell old stories or anything. It just used a few Maori names and symbols.
If you where Christian. How would you feel if Lego, made up a story that used names like Jesus, God, and other names from the bible. And made it into a story about Jesus the whore or something like that. And the cross was used upside down on the toilet handle. And tjen Lego said that the stories and where based on the bible. Would you be offended? A bit of an exaduration. But hopefully you get the idea.
"Why must Maori always be the difficult ones?"
Huh? Considering that Maori culture is relativly new to the world. How can you say that? Got any examples? You honestly think the Maori land claimes are the worst thing a culture as done in the history of mankind or something?
"It's really time for some of these people to stop pretending to live in the stone age. Humans have walked on the moon, split the atom, built a vast communications system in orbit, and with advances in farming have enough food to easily feed everybody on the entire planet and then some (the problem being distribution not supply these days)."
Huh? Stone age? Have you ever been to New Zealand before?
Anyway. Even if they still did choose to live in the stone age. Why the fuck is that a bad thing? What the hell has that got to do with you?
OT: Oh yeah. We might have done all of these things like flying to the moon. But are we any better off as people than we where 5000 years ago? We still kill and hurt each other after all.
"Today, Maori is a national language in New Zealand, taught in all schools"
Really? Unless something has happend in the last 2 years. There wasn't even an option to learn Maori at my (public) school when I was there. French, Japaness where compulsary to a certian grade. And Spanish and German where introduced latter on. But never Maori. Not our own native language.
The rest of what you said is true. But I think Maori are looking for more respect internationaly. I think there seems to be a thing where that feel like they are being used as a cheap marketing gimmic to wow the tourists.
And what exactly is your idea of sharing cultures? It's not like that game/or the lego set, will be historicly accurate, or even mention any cultural values. It's just ripping of bits of someone elses culture.
Your forgetting one thing. Differnt cultures have differnt values. We all know that english names are common and don't mean that much to us as people. But no all cultures are like that.
Some people get very offended when you hack there culture to bits, especialy just to make money, when you don't even give a toss about how they feel, respect, or even try to understand there culture.
"IANA electrical engineer, but I'm pretty sure LCDs aren't made of little light bulbs. "
PLease read again: "Switches often contain mercury, as do the fluorescent bulbs that light up liquid-crystal displays."
The LCD displays, don't contain light bulbs. But this is talking about the bulbs that light up the LCD displays. Slight differnce. Open and old (backlit) laptop up, and you'll find a bulb in there somewhere to light up the LCD. They usaly have that funny primatic plastic to, that looks cool when you look at a light though it.
"In other words... COLOR on a handheld is just another of the bells and whistles. Just like MP3 players, you have such a small ammount of storage and short battery life, it's completely useless."
I'm not sure if your tolling but: Color is very useful in GUI. Like icons, they can easly symbolise something, without taking up much space.
I do see your point though. Personaly, I prefer B&W PDAs, casue they smaller, and battery life. But I'm sure color will get better in a few years.
"All the Windows CE and Palm handhelds are just toys. For people that really need a device which fits in your pocket, and still does everything your desktop can (short of watch videos) buy a Psion 5mx. Fully featured Word processor, agenda, database, spreadsheet, terminal, and tons of great freeware for astronomy, chemistry, xpdf, calculators, encryption, electronics and more. Save yourself some wasted money and frustration. "
Yeah, the Pison has always tempted me. If the Palm Vx wasn't so small, I would have gotten a Psion revo +.
"That's the theory. The practice is that if a user tries to override or turn off style sheets many sites fall apart.
Appart from the fact that browsers don't support them very well. The only reason sites fall apart, or don't work with style sheets is becasue the people who made the site don't know how to use them.
"Not if you choose "Light" mode. You see, Slashdot does give users this option, and, unlike style sheets, it works. More sites should do that."
NO, once again, that the fault of the designer. There is nothing wrong with style sheets. Have you even used them before? Other than just to chnage the font? Why should a good, usefully standard be dropped just becasue people don't know how to use it, out of there own ignorance?
I have already made a verson of/. which looks the same when viewed with style sheets, and looks like light mode when stylesheets are turned off.
It works fine. So don't give me any of this stylesheets are bad crap. you just need to get off you ass and learn how to use them.
This post truly shows how the majority of/. don't have a clue about web-design.
Style sheets where made so designers can give more fexability. Sure you can change all the link colors. But that has been done using HTML for ages.
The thing with style sheets, it that they keep things consistent when you want it, alow you to give more control to you users, and give you tools to be able to sperate style from content. That way. people who don't like flashy web sites, and visit there favorite sites, do not have to put up with little bits like tables, images, differnt BG colors for differnt parts, border, whatever. That where intended just to make the site look good. Thats why they are called style sheets, people who don't want and style, can(or should be able to) turn them off.
Or, a designer can set up a differnt style sheet for diffent browsers IE: WebTV, brial browsers, PDA, WAP, Lynx, printers etc... And not have to go though the bullshit process of creating a differnt version site for each one. No more special prinible versions needed. No more seperate sites for differnt browsers.
The W3C is is not responsible for bad web-designers. That's like sayaing Linux encorages bad programing. What a complete load of bull.
BTW. I find you statement a bit unrealistic anyway. Even slashdot have customised colors.
If/. used CSS, it would be a big improvment for people on both sides of the field (plain vs stylised). Unfortunatly, untill browsers that support standards are more wide spread (and browsers that don't support the latest standards, but support what they support well) it's just not worth the effort.
Re:Palm's problem: poor displays!
on
Palm In Trouble?
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· Score: 1
"Consider this: some of the color Palm-OS units claim to support 16-bit color depth -- 65,535 colors. But a 160x160 display only has 25,600 pixels -- barely enough to display one third of these colors at any one time!"
Do you even have a clue what you are talking about? The 16-bit isn't a rating of how many differnt colors it can display at the same time. It's rating of how many colors it is capable of displaying.
Accoring to your theory. No 1024x769 screen, or even a 1600x1200 can display 24 or 32 bit color.
One would have though that someone would have uncovered this scam by now!
I think it started when people realised that these expensive (for the technology used) PDA's weren't actually high quality. EG. My palm came with a plastic stylus in the spare holder, not like the metal one in the right side. Also, the power buttons on the Vx have been knowen to fail (like mine), requireing you to press repeatedly, unless you hit the sweet spot.
Also. Where is my Palm OS upgrade that you promised? Why are all your accesories so expensive? Why do you still have a 160x120 screen, when you could make a 320x320 and not even make the unit bigger, or rewrite the whole OS?
Unless Palm get there act together, and stop trying to rip off customers, I'm never going to buy Palm stuff again. I hope the company dies, and learns it's lesson.
"Very few things in the real world always react the same way to the same command. You don't behave the same way in the library as you would at a friend's home. Your car responds much better to the gas pedal when it's in drive than in neutral. You read people's moods before deciding how to communicate with them."
First of all, I think you are taking what he says to literaly.
Most programs react the same when when you double click on them....They run. Most documents react the same way when opended....They are opened with there associated program. The system is reacting the same way to each command.
This also happend with progress bars. whether your deleting, installing, copying, moving stuff, you always get a dialog box, telling you the progress of the command.
Vending machines are one. There a 100's of different types of vending machines. There are all slightly differnt, but the still generally work in the same way, whether you buying a soft drink or pizza, or even underware from what I've heard.
Forms on web sites (usaly), the options might change a bit, they are going to differnt places, for differnt perposes. But they still have a general order, and a submit button. And they usaly take to another page comfirming that it has been sent afterwards.
My examples are a bit derragned from what he was saying, but hopefully you can get the
Slashdot Mirror
For starters. Any medium can be art, whether it's programming, photography, painting, drawing, music, graphic, scuplture, gardening, engineering, whatever.
I think what makes art. Is whether it was made for no real perpous. IE. the person might really like doing it. Might want to express feeling about something, might be bored, experimenting. Heaps of reasons. But the key is. It wasn't talored to meet any requirements. It wasn't made for a specific perpous or anything.
Design on the other had. Is made for a specific perpous. There are restrictions, requirements that have to be meet. There is a deffinit goal to be achived at the end.
Whether that be painting a portrait for someone, designing a magazine cover, making an OS for a computer, a fashion shoot, architecture, a tool etc...
I think, you'll find, that if you look at all the great art thoughout history, that it was made like I said: No specific perpous (I really do need to learn how to spell that word). It was created because the person just feel like doing it. Probably becasue they enjoyed it, and/or it meant something to them etc...
Of course. Art and design do quite oftern mix together in the real world. Just look at a fasion mag, the building you work in, you mouse (an the rest of the computer). Most probably, there is a bit of art in there mixed in with the design, and visa versa.
I don't think a Linux kernel is art. I think it is more designed. IE, you designed it to do a certian thing.
Art is sort of more self expression. Design, all though it may seem like art in some mediums (graphics, painting etc). Is not art. It's doing something (quite oftern for someone else) for a specific reason.
EG. I'm a "web designer". If I made a website for some shop. I'd consider it design (There was a reason, and there where specific requirements for it). If I made a website for my self. For no real resason other than say, I felt like it. I was bored. I really to do it, self expression. Then think it would be art.
Huh? Just because it's free. It means that I'm not allowed to complain about it? Hell, I could complain about it all I want about it, even if was GLP. I'm not sure what give you the idea that complaining is somehow illegal if you get it for free.
Also. I have to use it. I'm a web designer, that requiers me to try it on all major browsers.
It's also one of the few browsers that supports standards (not ver well, but still better than others).
Considering MS ship it with their OS, and most people don't bother to install another browser. I feel as if I'm allowd to complain about it as much as I want on the behalf of those people.
If people didn't complain about IE. It would still be as bad as it was at v.3.
Decode to 0's and 1's, and engrave them into diamond tablets. Sorta like punchcards I guess.
You'll need a few million diamond tablets though...
No.. If you want contol over layout, use CSS. Thats what it was made for. Casscading style sheets. Using text to conrol layout is just as bad as using HTML to do it.
"The fact that the more anal-retentive want to dictate precisely how things should look is irrelevant"
It may come to a suprise to you. But some people like this. It adds a bit of life to the web, it makes it interesting. And there are also proper reasons to layout a page too. Somehow, you seem to think, that plane vanilla HTML has something against 1000 or so years of design history.
Design isn't just there to make stuff look pretty, it's there to serve a perpose too.
Maybe you should redirect you anger towards the web browser makers, and the web-designers that don't know how to design properly.
I'm sick to death of this "I want the page to look how I want it, not how some designer thinks" bullshit, as a deffence to supporting CSS and other standards. The fact is. If these standards are supported. And designers use them properly. you can have the page exactly how you like it. But other people can also have the option to see it how the designer wanted to. Everybody wins.
How many times dose this need to be said before the /. crowd understands this--what I though was a--simple concept.
Sort of... don'f foget the little bits of phospher of what ever it's called. Spray a few water droplets on your monitor, and you will see lots of little 'pixels', each one with a r,g,b part.
Acctualy, it's 12fps. You can still whatch something at 12fps and have your eyes tricked into thinking it's something moving. As opposed to just a whole lot of pictures changing.
Another thing I might as well add. While you maynot notice the difference between 30fps and 150fps. If one was to rotate the camera fast, or film a car driving past. There would be more motion blur at the lower speed.
Even with all the fancy techology today. there are still shots that you can't shoot on film (24fps) because of motion blur and the like.
And Joe Salesman might no know, or care if Joe B dosn't know what SMDI means.
Sure he might find out after. But is he really likey to take it back to the store now? Probably not. He'll just live with it.
I'm not sure where exactly they take over (I assumed it was Mostly Harmless, and not any of the earler ones). They also must have been writen recently to, as he mentions USB in it.
If you where suspicious about the specs, then you could have just read them.
Well, you got me there... Why should you have rights to your self?
"Most cultures would be happy to have knowledge of themselves spread around the world, especially in educating children."
Damn right there. But I bet most cultures wouldn't want there knoledge cut up, and rearranged so it isn't true though. I played that game for a while. And it didn't educucate anyone about Maori tribes or tell old stories or anything. It just used a few Maori names and symbols.
If you where Christian. How would you feel if Lego, made up a story that used names like Jesus, God, and other names from the bible. And made it into a story about Jesus the whore or something like that. And the cross was used upside down on the toilet handle. And tjen Lego said that the stories and where based on the bible. Would you be offended? A bit of an exaduration. But hopefully you get the idea.
"Why must Maori always be the difficult ones?"
Huh? Considering that Maori culture is relativly new to the world. How can you say that? Got any examples? You honestly think the Maori land claimes are the worst thing a culture as done in the history of mankind or something?
Huh? Stone age? Have you ever been to New Zealand before?
Anyway. Even if they still did choose to live in the stone age. Why the fuck is that a bad thing? What the hell has that got to do with you?
OT: Oh yeah. We might have done all of these things like flying to the moon. But are we any better off as people than we where 5000 years ago? We still kill and hurt each other after all.
Really? Unless something has happend in the last 2 years. There wasn't even an option to learn Maori at my (public) school when I was there. French, Japaness where compulsary to a certian grade. And Spanish and German where introduced latter on. But never Maori. Not our own native language.
The rest of what you said is true. But I think Maori are looking for more respect internationaly. I think there seems to be a thing where that feel like they are being used as a cheap marketing gimmic to wow the tourists.
I'm a (white) New Zealander. Do I have de-facto rights to the Maori culture? No.
Why? Because I'm not Maori.
Why should I have rights to a culture that is not mine?
Anyway. I belive the people making it are in Denmark.
Well, you can't make money off a parody. So unless Lego are going to give those sets away...
I'm sure they would have if Star Trek had accually used alot of words, phases and names from the scientology crap. But IFAIK, they haven't.
And what exactly is your idea of sharing cultures? It's not like that game/or the lego set, will be historicly accurate, or even mention any cultural values. It's just ripping of bits of someone elses culture.
But no all cultures are like that.
Some people get very offended when you hack there culture to bits, especialy just to make money, when you don't even give a toss about how they feel, respect, or even try to understand there culture.
PLease read again: "Switches often contain mercury, as do the fluorescent bulbs that light up liquid-crystal displays."
The LCD displays, don't contain light bulbs. But this is talking about the bulbs that light up the LCD displays. Slight differnce. Open and old (backlit) laptop up, and you'll find a bulb in there somewhere to light up the LCD. They usaly have that funny primatic plastic to, that looks cool when you look at a light though it.
Scary though...
I do see your point though. Personaly, I prefer B&W PDAs, casue they smaller, and battery life. But I'm sure color will get better in a few years.
"All the Windows CE and Palm handhelds are just toys. For people that really need a device which fits in your pocket, and still does everything your desktop can (short of watch videos) buy a Psion 5mx. Fully featured Word processor, agenda, database, spreadsheet, terminal, and tons of great freeware for astronomy, chemistry, xpdf, calculators, encryption, electronics and more. Save yourself some wasted money and frustration. "
Yeah, the Pison has always tempted me. If the Palm Vx wasn't so small, I would have gotten a Psion revo +.
Appart from the fact that browsers don't support them very well. The only reason sites fall apart, or don't work with style sheets is becasue the people who made the site don't know how to use them.
"Not if you choose "Light" mode. You see, Slashdot does give users this option, and, unlike style sheets, it works. More sites should do that."
NO, once again, that the fault of the designer. There is nothing wrong with style sheets. Have you even used them before? Other than just to chnage the font?
Why should a good, usefully standard be dropped just becasue people don't know how to use it, out of there own ignorance?
I have already made a verson of /. which looks the same when viewed with style sheets, and looks like light mode when stylesheets are turned off.
It works fine. So don't give me any of this stylesheets are bad crap. you just need to get off you ass and learn how to use them.
Style sheets where made so designers can give more fexability. Sure you can change all the link colors. But that has been done using HTML for ages.
The thing with style sheets, it that they keep things consistent when you want it, alow you to give more control to you users, and give you tools to be able to sperate style from content. That way. people who don't like flashy web sites, and visit there favorite sites, do not have to put up with little bits like tables, images, differnt BG colors for differnt parts, border, whatever. That where intended just to make the site look good. Thats why they are called style sheets, people who don't want and style, can(or should be able to) turn them off.
Or, a designer can set up a differnt style sheet for diffent browsers IE: WebTV, brial browsers, PDA, WAP, Lynx, printers etc... And not have to go though the bullshit process of creating a differnt version site for each one. No more special prinible versions needed. No more seperate sites for differnt browsers.
The W3C is is not responsible for bad web-designers. That's like sayaing Linux encorages bad programing. What a complete load of bull.
BTW. I find you statement a bit unrealistic anyway. Even slashdot have customised colors.
If /. used CSS, it would be a big improvment for people on both sides of the field (plain vs stylised). Unfortunatly, untill browsers that support standards are more wide spread (and browsers that don't support the latest standards, but support what they support well) it's just not worth the effort.
Do you even have a clue what you are talking about? The 16-bit isn't a rating of how many differnt colors it can display at the same time. It's rating of how many colors it is capable of displaying.
Accoring to your theory. No 1024x769 screen, or even a 1600x1200 can display 24 or 32 bit color.
One would have though that someone would have uncovered this scam by now!
Also. Where is my Palm OS upgrade that you promised? Why are all your accesories so expensive? Why do you still have a 160x120 screen, when you could make a 320x320 and not even make the unit bigger, or rewrite the whole OS?
Unless Palm get there act together, and stop trying to rip off customers, I'm never going to buy Palm stuff again. I hope the company dies, and learns it's lesson.
First of all, I think you are taking what he says to literaly.
Most programs react the same when when you double click on them....They run. Most documents react the same way when opended....They are opened with there associated program. The system is reacting the same way to each command.
This also happend with progress bars. whether your deleting, installing, copying, moving stuff, you always get a dialog box, telling you the progress of the command.
Vending machines are one. There a 100's of different types of vending machines. There are all slightly differnt, but the still generally work in the same way, whether you buying a soft drink or pizza, or even underware from what I've heard.
Forms on web sites (usaly), the options might change a bit, they are going to differnt places, for differnt perposes. But they still have a general order, and a submit button. And they usaly take to another page comfirming that it has been sent afterwards.
My examples are a bit derragned from what he was saying, but hopefully you can get the