You should not have to be sorry for claiming your view, BUT (there's always a but)
The "reality" you state is the key point in my argument that I must have muffed.
I believe that the most significant effect of illegal distribution of music files is NOT a cut in distro costs, it is the strengthening of existing marketing. This is a catch 22 for the filesharers that was hoping for the forthgrowing of a new and indipendent music scene/market. Thus, as stated in the OP, the filesharing community are merely amplifiying excisting marketing of major labels, rather than supplying any significant corrections. This is based on the arguments of the filesharers themselves about filesharing also being "free" marketing, which I happen to believe is (to a far degree) true.
I agree that there is a significant reduction in distro costs, but its absolutely wrong to claim that the price of a digital copy therefore will end up at zero.
First of all, distro/copying accounts for very roughly 50% of the price paid by customer in a regular physical market. You still need to spend time and money on production, on marketing, on taxes and on administration. So given that distro costs was reduced to zero, the price to the consumer would only be reduced with about 50%.
It might be different in bigger markets like the US, but here in scandinavia prices on downloading a record are usually MORE than 50% lower than buying the physical item.
I still believe prices could be reduced more due to the fact that you can more easily reach out to a bigger market and thus make up for some additional price reduction by adding volume. However, stating that the price should be zero due to the customer/ISP covering the costs of distro only shows a lack on knowledge on the costs involved.
As I have stated in other posts here, I think filesharing COULD have brought forward marketing effects to royalty-free and legal music, but opposed to you I find that to be something that should be brought forward by the filesharers, not the music biz.
One way, to repeat myself from earlier posts, would be to make a service that gave the listener viable and legal alternatives when they searched up copyrighted music like Britney Schmears on TPB or the likes. In this way one could use the market power of the majors to promote artists without such leverage. Hopefully by the end a system like this would be self-containing and without the need of any major label music at all to "lean on"...
THAT would kill the majors, the Status Quo of today will not.
I might lack humor, but i value my time too much to bother much about people that makes post where their only point is that they want evidence, and then mucks me when i state the simple fact that I based my observation on the arguments brought forward by filesharers.
As said, you are merely stating the point in my OP, thanx for helping out. Sorry for not laughing.
You dont know anything about my label, and opposed to what you seem to be thinking, It was a success. I've had MTV award nominations, big tuopr support gigs and the works. I don't feel like going into the biz again for other reasons, so your 1.0.1 on marketing is not what I want.
Im trying, in my limited english, to point out
1. We are strengthening the majors if we believe in our own arguments about the effects of filesharing.
2. We should develop countermeasures to turn this development around and use the massive filesharing community to bring forth a new music scene.
One way could be to implement user generated matching to (main stream) artists that are being searched up on the filesharing services, and in this way present the user with FREE an LEGAL royalty free alternatives. If the user still choose to DL the illegal stuff, then its a lost case. If the user cares and want to be on the right side of the law, we have both stolen a potential customer from the majors as well as helped bringing forth a new artist. WIth time such a system would hopefully be self containing.
So I disahgree that we have to accept that the one with the most bucks always have to be the one sitting on top, (not when it comes to beer, but when it comes to digital products. Beer is good btw.;-) ). Or at least I think we have the possibility to rock their boat pretty heavily. It merely takes creative thinking, and the right people picking up on the Idea. TPB would be a nice place to start, although i frankly dont think those guys gives a hoses ass about anything else than themselves after listening to the embarasing streaming of the trial...
Yes you are right, my intentions with the post kinda got muffed due to me having a bit of problems communcating in english as its not my first language.
Reposting more solid suggestions is definitely worth trying, if I can make it pass the almight moderators again. This is not the easiest place to get articles that could be read as critics to the filesharing establishment accepted... But I'll give it a shot once I have managed to weed out the good and valid stuff that was posted to my OP:-)
I saw your other post, and dont worry about the flames. I had it coming, and I knew. I think I have actually gotten treated quite well given where I am posting and my background...:-D
I posted the article, and im not here to be captain obvious. English is not my first language though, and its a shame I didnt get my point out more clearly, as I really wanted to get people started on how we can change this trend.
I have a few thoughts myself, one is to use the searches in TPB and the likes to plug good, legal and royalty free alternatives.
Different from you, I think its definitely possible to use the marketing of the major labels against them, for instance in the way stated above. If such a system was buildt, it would (hopefully) be self containing after a while, and would serve the listeners with a viable option to violating copyright law and having nightmares about RIAA lawyers on their doorstep.
I used TPB merely to state my point. In the future id like to something like this born:
1. A user generated system is implemented that lets people list good and royalty free music, with links to similar major label music. Kinda like matching on last.fm
2. When recieving a search for Britney Schmears this could be used to give the listener alternatives, as well as the original searched item.
3. This could then hustle on major label marketing until it was self containing.
So my point is not that water is wet, but rather that I find it pretty concerning as well as ironic that the oh-so-sure-of-the-major's-close-death filesharers actually has turned the services into marketing centres for the major label music and perfected it as well, while there is close to impossible to find a good service taking care of royalty free music and promoting it to the masses.
There are several explanations to this I guess, and a good few of them are presented by insightful replies in here.
However it ended up as a debate about semantics and the TOP100 lists of TPB while what i hoped to trigger was a debate on how we can make a new era start. NOW.
I realise its mostly because i muffed my argument in the OP, Im having trouble getting my point out with my limited english vocabulary. But interesting points has been made (without my Karma becoming blown to smithereens, even).
I could at least hope that we could use the masses of TPB and the likes to gather up the cream of the crop and for instance use people's searches to present them with good alternatives that are royalty free and legal. Kinda like last.fm, but hustling on the marketing of major artists.
In this way people would get a valid choice, and it could fule the growth of a new music scene that are based on word of mouth and user generated marketing.
I am not, if you think so, surprised that the bay is filles with major label crap, simply because in the 10-12 years the debate has been rolling the initiatives for establishing an alternative to the excisting market has been rather few and poor.
So my OP was meant as a call out for this to happen, NOT as a whine about my personal experience with filesharing.
Thanks for clearing out my points, Im having trouble living up to slahsdot semantic standars as enlish is not my first language. Also, look at my reply to the Flawed premise OP
ALso: Im sad to report that this was implemented some time ago. Especially in Hip Hop there are plenty of examples of product placement in the lyrics, not to mention the videos. I think we are likely to see more, but primarily in the most mainstream parts of the biz (I hope).
As mentioned in the OP, im not here to state the obvious. Even though i realise you all prolly hate me now for mentioning I have been in the biz, id love to see this clearification modded up so that people don't spend their time assuming that Im here as Captain Obvious or as the failed emo-label dude...;-) I already know water is wet, so more posts on the subject is really not needed:-)
But IF we are right in assuming that filesharing has a marketing effect, a claim most of us have made earlier, we might very well be strengthening the majors and their marketing or at least killing them with a toothpick. This was my concern, not that my indie didn't get to the top100 of TPB.
And even if they (the majors) die it still raises the question on how we can put together a service to replace them. I say we shouldn't wait but start now, and slashdot definitely have the resources needed.
For instance, why not patch together a service that suggests good and LEGAL royalty free alternatives to whatever majorlabel crap people search up on filesharing services? In that way we could even hustle some marketing effect from the majors, as well as educate the masses on the fact that there is plenty of good and free music out there...
I know this, and it applies for copyright free artists even more than for indies. So it still raises the question that was supposed to be the main point of my OP:
What can we do to change this?
I know i will annoy some people by posting this same excerpt several places, but since SLashdot won' allow me to post as many replies as required, and I don't think most people will read all posts, im gonna take my chances:
IF it is true that filesharing strenghtens an artists sales, then TPB and the likes are strenghtening the major biz, not weakening it. I belive it does strenghten sales, and if I owned a major label, I would not lift a finger to change the ongoing situation.
Thus, I am calling out for the filesharing community to take counteraction. In a perfect world I would like something like this to be implemented:
A) When attempting to download Britney Schmears, you'd be warned that her music is copyrighted, and that you would actually support the major biz by DL'ing and seeding it...
B) After giving you this warning, you then get a choice to either download the original crap you searched up OR or a few alternatives that (by users i guess) are tagged as good LEGAL and COPYRIGHT FREE alternatives. Not indie-stuff. FREE stuff.
In this way the major biz would get a kick in the nuts that they actually felt. At the same time, the thousands of free artists out there could benefit from the marketing of major labels, and make use of it to advocate an alternative to the consolidated services we see today.
Is it more clear now what I am advocating? I mean: if noone at/. can make it happen, who can?:-)
I am not an exec. The post clearly states that I have left the music biz and closed down my (otherwise successful) label
I realise that you find it suitable to generalize the Music industry, but its not helping you or the forthgrowing of a new music scene.
I don't see any need to support any evidence, as the argument that filesharing strengthens artists are brought forth by the filesharers, not the biz. I just happen to think there is some truth in it, and with this in mind I made the assumption that filesharers are actually strengthening and consolidating the power of the major labels (biger market shares etc), not weakening it. If that does not concern you, you are merely stating my point in the OP.
My point is thyat why don't we put systems into action that TRULY makes the major labels obsolete?
I have posted this to a couple of other replies, so bear with me if you already saw it:
IF it is true that filesharing strenghtens an artists sales, then TPB and the likes are strenghtening the major biz, not weakening it. I belive it does strenghten sales, and if I owned a major label, I would not lift a finger to change the ongoing situation. And definitely not sue them... But stupid is forever I guess...;-)
Thus, I am calling out for the filesharing community to take counteraction. In a perfect world I would like something like this to be implemented:
A) When attempting to download Britney Schmears, you'd be warned that her music is copyrighted, and that you would actually support the major biz by DL'ing and seeding it...
B) After giving you this warning, you then get a choice to either download the original crap you searched up OR or a few alternatives that (by users i guess) are tagged as good LEGAL and COPYRIGHT FREE alternatives. Not indie-stuff. FREE stuff.
In this way the major biz would get a kick in the nuts that they actually felt. At the same time, the thousands of free artists out there could benefit from the marketing of major labels, and make use of it to advocate an alternative to the consolidated services we see today.
Is it more clear now what I am advocating? I mean: if noone at/. can make it happen, who can?:-)
I might be crazy, but my point was NOT to save the indies. Im advocating that the filesharing community is merely turning themselves into useful idiots rather than using the power they have at hand, and im suprised and let down that it has not happened in more than 10 years now
Im gonna repost a clearification i made to another post, I hope it can make you understand that im not just stating the obvious:
1)IF it is true that filesharing strenghtens an artists sales, then TPB and the likes are strenghtening the major biz, not weakening it. I belive it does strenghten sales, and if I owned a major label, I would not lift a finger to change the ongoing situation.
2) Thus, I am calling out for the filesharing community to take counteraction. In a perfect world I would like something like this to be implemented:
A) When attempting to download Britney Schmears, you'd be warned that her music is copyrighted, and that you would actually support the major biz by DL'ing and seeding it...
B) After giving you this warning, you then get a choice to either download the original crap you searched up OR or a few alternatives that (by users i guess) are tagged as good LEGAL and COPYRIGHT FREE alternatives. Not indie-stuff. FREE stuff.
In this way the major biz would get a kick in the nuts that they actually felt. At the same time, the thousands of free artists out there could benefit from the marketing of major labels, and make use of it to advocate an alternative to the consolidated services we see today.
Is it more clear now what I am advocating? I mean: if noone at/. can make it happen, who can?:-)
I hope you are right, and i share your faith in P2P as a distribution channel. This alone should cut costs with about 25%, money that either could be used to sell music cheaper, or even pay the filesharers for taking the time trouble and bandwith of distributing the music.
These are interesting thoughts, but while I had hope that someone would say "hey you moron there is a large project going on right now that does excactly what you ask for" it seems that neither the music biz or the filesharing community has any plans of putting such things into action...
But im still hoping, maybe I will start a project myself one day that aims to do some of this, I have some ideas but lack the dough and the time right now. Slashdot definitely has the people with the skills and the potential to mobilize a large movement towards the one that breaks the code on how it should be done...
This was not at all what I wanted to say. Im sorry i didn't reach out to you, and guess even the most simplified of posts cannot be absorbed by all.
I was not running a label when filesharing and P2P entered the scene. I was a music enthusiast, and a web enthusiast. I had strong faith in the future of music developing into a more user controlled and vivid scene than the (in my opinion) one-dimensional commercial market. As I see it now it has actually worsened, and i used TPB to examplify why and how. I over simplified it with strong belief in most/.-users being able to fill in the blanks, and most of them did.
I agree 100% with marketing being an uphill battle, but the point that overshot you is that earlier the "customers" (or listeners if you like) had no chance of controlling the market when it came to what being provided other than through their wallet. Now they have this ability, but unfortunately they don't use it from what I see.
Trent Reznor, who btw brought one of my bands along for support with NIN, has the money and the leverage to make an impact on these services. This simply because people will follow marketing as mindless sheeps. And the one with the most money will thus have the most power as long as the sheep-thing is in effect...
If it was only Reznor doing this I would not be concerned, but the same goes for Britney Schmears, Schmo-Rida and other wortless crap designed with no other purpose than to avoid as much market friction as possible.
If this doesn't concern you one bit, that's an honest thing. But if you think what I need to learn to be enlightened is your 1.0.1 on marketing i suggest you STFU yourself and read my original post again.
I don't even run the label anymore, for other reasons than filesharing. So my "marketing needs" has absolutely nothing to do with it as you so insightfully imply.
My loss will in the worst case scenario be that I will have to get bombarded by utter crap from the major biz back in L.A. even after the consumers have been handed power they are unable to use sensibly...
Well, you are an example of it being not all a waste of time. Whatever comes out of it, I will learn about the mindset of the "general" filesharer, and it will hopefully serve me some other time.
Actually I find the answers to be surprisingly diverse. Some seem to have reflected quite a bit over this, and the nitpickers and flamers are not at all as hard on me as I expected.
Then again I have not been able to read even half the postst yet...;-)
I share alot of your desillusions when it comes to filesharing and the wonders we thought it would bring 10-12 years ago.. And having been a part of the music biz for some years also, Im probably even more depressed to see how little has happened, and how little seemingly will happen. I dint the filesharing community to be almost as reactionary (can I use that expression in english??) as the record biz. The losers are the artists, the music, and perhaps the indies in my worst case scenario.
Anyhow: Have a nice day or night, depending on where in the world you find yourself located. I found your post both kind and encouraging!
Interesting. Im glad to hear that there are some success stories out their, as it means all is not doom even though me personally haven't seen any/many such histories yet... (well, now I do..:-) )
What surprises me is that no record label picked up on them or at least sniffed a bit on them (norwegian expressions that probably doesn't translate to well).
Due to fierce competition they are usually good on picking up pretty fast on bands getting an audience that cannot be explained by regular media or marketing...
The reason why they exist is that the artists seldomly are interested (or have the skills) to manage the financial part (amongst many things) of being... well, an artist.
Thats the reason why you will find very few or none that actually do what you state in here an "keep the dough themselves", although filesharing has been going on for at least 10 years.
This should concern the filesharing-enthusiasts. At least I know it concerns me, eho would like to see such a new market grow forth.
Finally: its called a market mainly because it is money involved. Manouvering in a market takes skills and COSTS money. The major problem the is that when you reach a certain level, you will no longer be able to focus on the artist part. You will need someone to take care of it for you, and wether you call them a label, a management or a schmabel is not really relevant. The thing is as long as their is a big interest in music, there will be money to be made, and there will be a need for a business. Otherwise, the artists would already have cut their bonds to the biz a long time ago. You need to remember that they sign the contracts out of free will, not with a gun against their head.
If we want to see this change, we need to give them good alternatives. I don't see that happening anytime soon, leading to my snub here at slashdot...
BTW: a good example on the gigantic opportunities as well as workload provided by the internet is the massive amount of feedback i get on my post. I could very well need a secretary right now...
It is no different for an artists experiencing success, wether it'd be on the net or through "traditional" channels...:-)
Its a shame you are back in Canada (im of candian origin myself), or i would invite you out for a beer sometimes as i think it would make an interesting aquaintance.
Im not gonna add alot to your post, other than mentioning that we have the same taxes on CD-Rs etc over her in norway that secures the artists some income, at least as long as there is a physical medium involved.
Have you checke out Spotify, if it is available over there? Its streaming, but they have buildt up a stron catalouge already and are rapidly growing. They base it upon som e advertising now and then between songs, as well as ad-free subscriptions with som other minor benefits. Its in beta stage, so you need an invite to install it though... I might be able to cough one up if its possible to use over there...
Anyways, thanks again for an insightful post that really puts the user experience in latter years into perspective...:-)
I just wanted to use TPB as an example on the missing link between the "new market" and the tons of free music out there begging for an audience...
This paired with the lack of success stories of bands being able to "make it" outside of the biz makes me concerned that things are actually moving to the benefit of the major biz rather than anything new replacing the dino's.
I don't even run the label anymore, so you are kinda missing my point. Im merely concerned that the major biz seems to be concolidating on behalf of the indies AND the free music that is out there. Im afraid this will continue and create a less diverse music scene, rather than bring forth the new music scene that I have been awaiting eagerly now for 10+ years. Im 35 now and im actually afraid im gonna die before it happens, and it concerns me:-D
Thats not what i MEANT to say, but if I dont get my point forth I guess its my own fault.
Im merely saying that if I were controlling the major labels, I would be pretty damned content with how things are developing. A recent poll/report in norway pointed out that more than 85% of the population still wants the copyright law as it is today. In other words we are still a long way from Nirvana...
Apart from that, a very important point is that copyright is not MANDATORY, and claiming pay for copyrighted material isn't either. Anyone has the free choice to release and distribute their music freely. But the internet community still has not been able to do it desirable for artists. It should be a concern for those awaiting the "new era" that after 10 years of merry filesharing most all artists wouls sign a record deal as soon as it is placed on the table in front of them...
So how do we bring forth change? By simply continuing to share Britney Schmears and Schmo-Rida at an ever growing pace? I dont think so...
I find your points _very_ interesting, although my english skills is not serving me well here;-)
My concern is that a system build around this tech would actually provide an even more commercial and undiverse music scene. Im not saying it WILL happen, Im just saying we need to keep our eyes on what change we actually advocate...
I beg to differ when it comes to the quality of the music, especially in the mainstream market. In my opinion it has not been less diverse and less interesting since the 70's, when the "listener burnout" due to mindless relases of terrible Disco led the major biz to claiming that "home taping is killing music". Laters it turned out that mass commercialisation (obviously) leads to a less faithful (in lack of a better word) audience.
Im not concerned about the excisting market one bit. Im concerned by the lack of good alternatives growing forth after 10-or-so years of mindless argueing between the "fronts". This is what I want to see happen, but it might take a higher level of conciousness from the sharers to advocate this change, thus my humble post in here...
Slashdot Mirror
Whatever helps you sleep at night..
You're a criminal in both cases..
You should not have to be sorry for claiming your view, BUT (there's always a but)
The "reality" you state is the key point in my argument that I must have muffed.
I believe that the most significant effect of illegal distribution of music files is NOT a cut in distro costs, it is the strengthening of existing marketing. This is a catch 22 for the filesharers that was hoping for the forthgrowing of a new and indipendent music scene/market. Thus, as stated in the OP, the filesharing community are merely amplifiying excisting marketing of major labels, rather than supplying any significant corrections. This is based on the arguments of the filesharers themselves about filesharing also being "free" marketing, which I happen to believe is (to a far degree) true.
I agree that there is a significant reduction in distro costs, but its absolutely wrong to claim that the price of a digital copy therefore will end up at zero.
First of all, distro/copying accounts for very roughly 50% of the price paid by customer in a regular physical market. You still need to spend time and money on production, on marketing, on taxes and on administration. So given that distro costs was reduced to zero, the price to the consumer would only be reduced with about 50%.
It might be different in bigger markets like the US, but here in scandinavia prices on downloading a record are usually MORE than 50% lower than buying the physical item.
I still believe prices could be reduced more due to the fact that you can more easily reach out to a bigger market and thus make up for some additional price reduction by adding volume. However, stating that the price should be zero due to the customer/ISP covering the costs of distro only shows a lack on knowledge on the costs involved.
As I have stated in other posts here, I think filesharing COULD have brought forward marketing effects to royalty-free and legal music, but opposed to you I find that to be something that should be brought forward by the filesharers, not the music biz.
One way, to repeat myself from earlier posts, would be to make a service that gave the listener viable and legal alternatives when they searched up copyrighted music like Britney Schmears on TPB or the likes. In this way one could use the market power of the majors to promote artists without such leverage. Hopefully by the end a system like this would be self-containing and without the need of any major label music at all to "lean on"...
THAT would kill the majors, the Status Quo of today will not.
I might lack humor, but i value my time too much to bother much about people that makes post where their only point is that they want evidence, and then mucks me when i state the simple fact that I based my observation on the arguments brought forward by filesharers.
As said, you are merely stating the point in my OP, thanx for helping out. Sorry for not laughing.
We are loosing track on what I wanted to debate.
You dont know anything about my label, and opposed to what you seem to be thinking, It was a success. I've had MTV award nominations, big tuopr support gigs and the works. I don't feel like going into the biz again for other reasons, so your 1.0.1 on marketing is not what I want.
Im trying, in my limited english, to point out
1. We are strengthening the majors if we believe in our own arguments about the effects of filesharing.
2. We should develop countermeasures to turn this development around and use the massive filesharing community to bring forth a new music scene.
One way could be to implement user generated matching to (main stream) artists that are being searched up on the filesharing services, and in this way present the user with FREE an LEGAL royalty free alternatives. If the user still choose to DL the illegal stuff, then its a lost case. If the user cares and want to be on the right side of the law, we have both stolen a potential customer from the majors as well as helped bringing forth a new artist. WIth time such a system would hopefully be self containing.
So I disahgree that we have to accept that the one with the most bucks always have to be the one sitting on top, (not when it comes to beer, but when it comes to digital products. Beer is good btw. ;-) ).
Or at least I think we have the possibility to rock their boat pretty heavily. It merely takes creative thinking, and the right people picking up on the Idea. TPB would be a nice place to start, although i frankly dont think those guys gives a hoses ass about anything else than themselves after listening to the embarasing streaming of the trial...
Yes you are right, my intentions with the post kinda got muffed due to me having a bit of problems communcating in english as its not my first language.
Reposting more solid suggestions is definitely worth trying, if I can make it pass the almight moderators again. This is not the easiest place to get articles that could be read as critics to the filesharing establishment accepted... But I'll give it a shot once I have managed to weed out the good and valid stuff that was posted to my OP :-)
I saw your other post, and dont worry about the flames. I had it coming, and I knew. :-D
I think I have actually gotten treated quite well given where I am posting and my background...
I posted the article, and im not here to be captain obvious. English is not my first language though, and its a shame I didnt get my point out more clearly, as I really wanted to get people started on how we can change this trend.
I have a few thoughts myself, one is to use the searches in TPB and the likes to plug good, legal and royalty free alternatives.
Different from you, I think its definitely possible to use the marketing of the major labels against them, for instance in the way stated above. If such a system was buildt, it would (hopefully) be self containing after a while, and would serve the listeners with a viable option to violating copyright law and having nightmares about RIAA lawyers on their doorstep.
I used TPB merely to state my point. In the future id like to something like this born:
1. A user generated system is implemented that lets people list good and royalty free music, with links to similar major label music. Kinda like matching on last.fm
2. When recieving a search for Britney Schmears this could be used to give the listener alternatives, as well as the original searched item.
3. This could then hustle on major label marketing until it was self containing.
So my point is not that water is wet, but rather that I find it pretty concerning as well as ironic that the oh-so-sure-of-the-major's-close-death filesharers actually has turned the services into marketing centres for the major label music and perfected it as well, while there is close to impossible to find a good service taking care of royalty free music and promoting it to the masses.
There are several explanations to this I guess, and a good few of them are presented by insightful replies in here.
However it ended up as a debate about semantics and the TOP100 lists of TPB while what i hoped to trigger was a debate on how we can make a new era start. NOW.
I realise its mostly because i muffed my argument in the OP, Im having trouble getting my point out with my limited english vocabulary. But interesting points has been made (without my Karma becoming blown to smithereens, even).
I humbly disagree.
I could at least hope that we could use the masses of TPB and the likes to gather up the cream of the crop and for instance use people's searches to present them with good alternatives that are royalty free and legal. Kinda like last.fm, but hustling on the marketing of major artists.
In this way people would get a valid choice, and it could fule the growth of a new music scene that are based on word of mouth and user generated marketing.
I am not, if you think so, surprised that the bay is filles with major label crap, simply because in the 10-12 years the debate has been rolling the initiatives for establishing an alternative to the excisting market has been rather few and poor.
So my OP was meant as a call out for this to happen, NOT as a whine about my personal experience with filesharing.
Thanks for clearing out my points, Im having trouble living up to slahsdot semantic standars as enlish is not my first language. Also, look at my reply to the Flawed premise OP
ALso:
Im sad to report that this was implemented some time ago. Especially in Hip Hop there are plenty of examples of product placement in the lyrics, not to mention the videos. I think we are likely to see more, but primarily in the most mainstream parts of the biz (I hope).
As mentioned in the OP, im not here to state the obvious. Even though i realise you all prolly hate me now for mentioning I have been in the biz, id love to see this clearification modded up so that people don't spend their time assuming that Im here as Captain Obvious or as the failed emo-label dude... ;-) I already know water is wet, so more posts on the subject is really not needed :-)
But IF we are right in assuming that filesharing has a marketing effect, a claim most of us have made earlier, we might very well be strengthening the majors and their marketing or at least killing them with a toothpick. This was my concern, not that my indie didn't get to the top100 of TPB.
And even if they (the majors) die it still raises the question on how we can put together a service to replace them. I say we shouldn't wait but start now, and slashdot definitely have the resources needed.
For instance, why not patch together a service that suggests good and LEGAL royalty free alternatives to whatever majorlabel crap people search up on filesharing services? In that way we could even hustle some marketing effect from the majors, as well as educate the masses on the fact that there is plenty of good and free music out there...
I know this, and it applies for copyright free artists even more than for indies. So it still raises the question that was supposed to be the main point of my OP:
What can we do to change this?
I know i will annoy some people by posting this same excerpt several places, but since SLashdot won' allow me to post as many replies as required, and I don't think most people will read all posts, im gonna take my chances:
IF it is true that filesharing strenghtens an artists sales, then TPB and the likes are strenghtening the major biz, not weakening it. I belive it does strenghten sales, and if I owned a major label, I would not lift a finger to change the ongoing situation.
Thus, I am calling out for the filesharing community to take counteraction. In a perfect world I would like something like this to be implemented:
A) When attempting to download Britney Schmears, you'd be warned that her music is copyrighted, and that you would actually support the major biz by DL'ing and seeding it...
B) After giving you this warning, you then get a choice to either download the original crap you searched up OR or a few alternatives that (by users i guess) are tagged as good LEGAL and COPYRIGHT FREE alternatives. Not indie-stuff. FREE stuff.
In this way the major biz would get a kick in the nuts that they actually felt. At the same time, the thousands of free artists out there could benefit from the marketing of major labels, and make use of it to advocate an alternative to the consolidated services we see today.
Is it more clear now what I am advocating? I mean: if noone at /. can make it happen, who can? :-)
I am not an exec. The post clearly states that I have left the music biz and closed down my (otherwise successful) label
I realise that you find it suitable to generalize the Music industry, but its not helping you or the forthgrowing of a new music scene.
I don't see any need to support any evidence, as the argument that filesharing strengthens artists are brought forth by the filesharers, not the biz. I just happen to think there is some truth in it, and with this in mind I made the assumption that filesharers are actually strengthening and consolidating the power of the major labels (biger market shares etc), not weakening it. If that does not concern you, you are merely stating my point in the OP.
OK, last try.
My point is thyat why don't we put systems into action that TRULY makes the major labels obsolete?
I have posted this to a couple of other replies, so bear with me if you already saw it:
IF it is true that filesharing strenghtens an artists sales, then TPB and the likes are strenghtening the major biz, not weakening it. I belive it does strenghten sales, and if I owned a major label, I would not lift a finger to change the ongoing situation. And definitely not sue them... But stupid is forever I guess... ;-)
Thus, I am calling out for the filesharing community to take counteraction. In a perfect world I would like something like this to be implemented:
A) When attempting to download Britney Schmears, you'd be warned that her music is copyrighted, and that you would actually support the major biz by DL'ing and seeding it...
B) After giving you this warning, you then get a choice to either download the original crap you searched up OR or a few alternatives that (by users i guess) are tagged as good LEGAL and COPYRIGHT FREE alternatives. Not indie-stuff. FREE stuff.
In this way the major biz would get a kick in the nuts that they actually felt. At the same time, the thousands of free artists out there could benefit from the marketing of major labels, and make use of it to advocate an alternative to the consolidated services we see today.
Is it more clear now what I am advocating? /. can make it happen, who can? :-)
I mean: if noone at
Thanks for posting.
I might be crazy, but my point was NOT to save the indies. Im advocating that the filesharing community is merely turning themselves into useful idiots rather than using the power they have at hand, and im suprised and let down that it has not happened in more than 10 years now
Im gonna repost a clearification i made to another post, I hope it can make you understand that im not just stating the obvious:
1)IF it is true that filesharing strenghtens an artists sales, then TPB and the likes are strenghtening the major biz, not weakening it. I belive it does strenghten sales, and if I owned a major label, I would not lift a finger to change the ongoing situation.
2) Thus, I am calling out for the filesharing community to take counteraction. In a perfect world I would like something like this to be implemented:
A) When attempting to download Britney Schmears, you'd be warned that her music is copyrighted, and that you would actually support the major biz by DL'ing and seeding it...
B) After giving you this warning, you then get a choice to either download the original crap you searched up OR or a few alternatives that (by users i guess) are tagged as good LEGAL and COPYRIGHT FREE alternatives. Not indie-stuff. FREE stuff.
In this way the major biz would get a kick in the nuts that they actually felt. At the same time, the thousands of free artists out there could benefit from the marketing of major labels, and make use of it to advocate an alternative to the consolidated services we see today.
Is it more clear now what I am advocating? I mean: if noone at /. can make it happen, who can? :-)
Thanks for posting
I hope you are right, and i share your faith in P2P as a distribution channel. This alone should cut costs with about 25%, money that either could be used to sell music cheaper, or even pay the filesharers for taking the time trouble and bandwith of distributing the music.
These are interesting thoughts, but while I had hope that someone would say "hey you moron there is a large project going on right now that does excactly what you ask for" it seems that neither the music biz or the filesharing community has any plans of putting such things into action...
But im still hoping, maybe I will start a project myself one day that aims to do some of this, I have some ideas but lack the dough and the time right now. Slashdot definitely has the people with the skills and the potential to mobilize a large movement towards the one that breaks the code on how it should be done...
Hello, and thanks for posting your views
This was not at all what I wanted to say. Im sorry i didn't reach out to you, and guess even the most simplified of posts cannot be absorbed by all.
I was not running a label when filesharing and P2P entered the scene. I was a music enthusiast, and a web enthusiast. I had strong faith in the future of music developing into a more user controlled and vivid scene than the (in my opinion) one-dimensional commercial market. As I see it now it has actually worsened, and i used TPB to examplify why and how. I over simplified it with strong belief in most /.-users being able to fill in the blanks, and most of them did.
I agree 100% with marketing being an uphill battle, but the point that overshot you is that earlier the "customers" (or listeners if you like) had no chance of controlling the market when it came to what being provided other than through their wallet. Now they have this ability, but unfortunately they don't use it from what I see.
Trent Reznor, who btw brought one of my bands along for support with NIN, has the money and the leverage to make an impact on these services. This simply because people will follow marketing as mindless sheeps. And the one with the most money will thus have the most power as long as the sheep-thing is in effect...
If it was only Reznor doing this I would not be concerned, but the same goes for Britney Schmears, Schmo-Rida and other wortless crap designed with no other purpose than to avoid as much market friction as possible.
If this doesn't concern you one bit, that's an honest thing. But if you think what I need to learn to be enlightened is your 1.0.1 on marketing i suggest you STFU yourself and read my original post again.
I don't even run the label anymore, for other reasons than filesharing. So my "marketing needs" has absolutely nothing to do with it as you so insightfully imply.
My loss will in the worst case scenario be that I will have to get bombarded by utter crap from the major biz back in L.A. even after the consumers have been handed power they are unable to use sensibly...
haha, thanks for your kind post
Well, you are an example of it being not all a waste of time. Whatever comes out of it, I will learn about the mindset of the "general" filesharer, and it will hopefully serve me some other time.
Actually I find the answers to be surprisingly diverse. Some seem to have reflected quite a bit over this, and the nitpickers and flamers are not at all as hard on me as I expected.
Then again I have not been able to read even half the postst yet... ;-)
I share alot of your desillusions when it comes to filesharing and the wonders we thought it would bring 10-12 years ago.. And having been a part of the music biz for some years also, Im probably even more depressed to see how little has happened, and how little seemingly will happen. I dint the filesharing community to be almost as reactionary (can I use that expression in english??) as the record biz. The losers are the artists, the music, and perhaps the indies in my worst case scenario.
Anyhow: Have a nice day or night, depending on where in the world you find yourself located. I found your post both kind and encouraging!
Hey and thanks for posting
Interesting. :-) )
Im glad to hear that there are some success stories out their, as it means all is not doom even though me personally haven't seen any/many such histories yet... (well, now I do..
What surprises me is that no record label picked up on them or at least sniffed a bit on them (norwegian expressions that probably doesn't translate to well).
Due to fierce competition they are usually good on picking up pretty fast on bands getting an audience that cannot be explained by regular media or marketing...
Thanks for posting.
The reason why they exist is that the artists seldomly are interested (or have the skills) to manage the financial part (amongst many things) of being... well, an artist.
Thats the reason why you will find very few or none that actually do what you state in here an "keep the dough themselves", although filesharing has been going on for at least 10 years.
This should concern the filesharing-enthusiasts. At least I know it concerns me, eho would like to see such a new market grow forth.
Finally: its called a market mainly because it is money involved. Manouvering in a market takes skills and COSTS money. The major problem the is that when you reach a certain level, you will no longer be able to focus on the artist part. You will need someone to take care of it for you, and wether you call them a label, a management or a schmabel is not really relevant. The thing is as long as their is a big interest in music, there will be money to be made, and there will be a need for a business. Otherwise, the artists would already have cut their bonds to the biz a long time ago. You need to remember that they sign the contracts out of free will, not with a gun against their head.
If we want to see this change, we need to give them good alternatives. I don't see that happening anytime soon, leading to my snub here at slashdot...
BTW:
a good example on the gigantic opportunities as well as workload provided by the internet is the massive amount of feedback i get on my post. I could very well need a secretary right now...
It is no different for an artists experiencing success, wether it'd be on the net or through "traditional" channels... :-)
THanks for a very good post
Its a shame you are back in Canada (im of candian origin myself), or i would invite you out for a beer sometimes as i think it would make an interesting aquaintance.
Im not gonna add alot to your post, other than mentioning that we have the same taxes on CD-Rs etc over her in norway that secures the artists some income, at least as long as there is a physical medium involved.
Have you checke out Spotify, if it is available over there? Its streaming, but they have buildt up a stron catalouge already and are rapidly growing. They base it upon som e advertising now and then between songs, as well as ad-free subscriptions with som other minor benefits. Its in beta stage, so you need an invite to install it though... I might be able to cough one up if its possible to use over there...
Anyways, thanks again for an insightful post that really puts the user experience in latter years into perspective... :-)
hello, and thanks for posting.
I AM aware of this, believe it or not. :-)
I just wanted to use TPB as an example on the missing link between the "new market" and the tons of free music out there begging for an audience...
This paired with the lack of success stories of bands being able to "make it" outside of the biz makes me concerned that things are actually moving to the benefit of the major biz rather than anything new replacing the dino's.
Thanks for posting!
I don't even run the label anymore, so you are kinda missing my point. Im merely concerned that the major biz seems to be concolidating on behalf of the indies AND the free music that is out there. Im afraid this will continue and create a less diverse music scene, rather than bring forth the new music scene that I have been awaiting eagerly now for 10+ years. Im 35 now and im actually afraid im gonna die before it happens, and it concerns me :-D
Thanks for posting.
Thats not what i MEANT to say, but if I dont get my point forth I guess its my own fault.
Im merely saying that if I were controlling the major labels, I would be pretty damned content with how things are developing. A recent poll/report in norway pointed out that more than 85% of the population still wants the copyright law as it is today. In other words we are still a long way from Nirvana...
Apart from that, a very important point is that copyright is not MANDATORY, and claiming pay for copyrighted material isn't either. Anyone has the free choice to release and distribute their music freely. But the internet community still has not been able to do it desirable for artists. It should be a concern for those awaiting the "new era" that after 10 years of merry filesharing most all artists wouls sign a record deal as soon as it is placed on the table in front of them...
So how do we bring forth change? By simply continuing to share Britney Schmears and Schmo-Rida at an ever growing pace? I dont think so...
THanks for posting
I find your points _very_ interesting, although my english skills is not serving me well here ;-)
My concern is that a system build around this tech would actually provide an even more commercial and undiverse music scene. Im not saying it WILL happen, Im just saying we need to keep our eyes on what change we actually advocate...
Hey, and thanks for your post
I beg to differ when it comes to the quality of the music, especially in the mainstream market. In my opinion it has not been less diverse and less interesting since the 70's, when the "listener burnout" due to mindless relases of terrible Disco led the major biz to claiming that "home taping is killing music". Laters it turned out that mass commercialisation (obviously) leads to a less faithful (in lack of a better word) audience.
Im not concerned about the excisting market one bit. Im concerned by the lack of good alternatives growing forth after 10-or-so years of mindless argueing between the "fronts". This is what I want to see happen, but it might take a higher level of conciousness from the sharers to advocate this change, thus my humble post in here...