Im not surprised, im just not sure the average filesharing person is aware of this and aware of the power (and responsibility) placed upon their shoulders...
I endorse your comment, and this is what concerns me. What I want to see in my perfect world is the filesharers being able to kick the major biz in the nuts buy ripping out the good free music in a way that KEEPS it free.
Someone in here mentioned non-mandatory micro-royalties. I find that idea very intersting. Another thought i have been plying with, is giving the filesharers the role and the INCOME of the traditional distributor. But It would take laot of time to present, so i'll live it be...
this pretty much sums up my concern in a good way. I'd like to see the pirates give this a little more thought, so that the good free music actually WILL be given a vivid marketing place...
I humbly disagree (totally...hehe) to your analysis of the quality of major biz music compared to indie music. As I read your arguments you basically want to keep the commercial music scene strong and healthy.
The micro-royalty idea is an idea I have seen brought forward many times the latter years, and I think it is a very interesting thought. Do you or anyone else here know if there are any initiative going on that is worth readin up on?
If thats all you pulled out from my posting, i have failed epicly in bringing my point forward.
I dont run a label anymore, mainly because I found the whole biz to be annoyingly counter-intuitive (in lack of a better word in my limited vocabulary).
I WANT to see a new era grow forth, and my post was a concern on why this is not happening after ten years of mindless arguing from both the biz and the filesharing community (pirates, althoug i dont like the expression too much)
BTW: Ill definitely check out your horror movie project. I love low budget horror. Check out this norwegian nazi-zombie project if u are inetrested (think the page is only in norwegian, but obviously the dialouge is not the main issue)
You make a strong and valid argument. There are some problems you dont adress though:
The main one is that where the RIAA major labels have a strong and global distribution running at any time, the indies don't as it is immensly costly.
So where the major's still can maintain a steady income on physical objects, the Indies are seeing a major setback competition wise. I have seen several reports pointing out this problem, unfortunately none that I can find now.
Its not that simple, and I find your statements very over-simplified. But since you seem to belive this, im gonna tell you why with the risk of just feeding a troll...
If I had alot of money to market music, I could make the most sucky artist ever top the TPB sharts, just like Britney Schmears or Schmo-Rida has done.;-)
If I have the best artist in the world, but only a few dough to market it, I wont stand a chance achieving it without a miracle striking down.
And again: this has nothing to do with me. My label is now history for other reasons than filsesharing.
I dont share your enthusiasm. The main reason is that I in general "hate" mainstream music. I am afraid that the mainstream music will be even more dominant, while the rest will be more niche than ever before. I want good services to provide me with the cool stuff from the free music scene, and I want it to have a measurable impact. As I get you, you dont think its possible. Im afraid you are right, but I hope not:-)
I clearly remeber those days, I even had a song with my own band up as "pick of the week" in the early days of mp3.com, and it surely had an effect.
So I totally agree with you, and this is part of my agenda. Why is the community not able to make a service just as popular as TPB based on the free and interesting music out there? Id love to see it!
Last.fm might be on a good track towards this, but again the problem is that as soon as major commercial acts are mixed into it the services has a tendency to collapse under their own weight, like myspace has done.
Hey and thanks for posting. There's probably alot passing me by, unfortunately I only have one life to spend on all the cool stuff on the net...
I will note down your thoughts about BT-communities. My point was not to nail TPB to the wall though, just to argue that there is seemingly no measurable effect on what music the net community listens to compared to the "ordinary" market.
Anyways, Im not at all afriad to say I might be wrong on some of this. On the other hand I see indies dying like flies, while I don't see any other damage to the major biz than some scratches in the paint. And it confuses me and makes me concerned.
If thats how you interpret my post, Im have failed to bring my point forth.
I dont even run a label anymore.
Im simply stating that the music biz scene seems to be more consolidated than ever, and I am aware (and thought I made this clear) that TPB is expected to reflect the marketing of the major biz. Im merely pointing out that this actually strengthens the "arch enemy" rather than advocating change...
I realise that its impossible to bring solid "evidence" to what is happening, and at what price it comes. I could write a book about it, but I wanted to keep it short to make my point. Not more, not less.
Im probably an idiot to try to post the "reader's Digest" version inside the temple of nerds, but hopefully I can start some refelctions that can contribute to the future market being brn.
That sais I know that your arguments are 100% valid. The problem is that I (and this is MY personal view) am afraid that the major labels will be stronger than ever, while all the other markets will be, as you point out, niches. The stuff in between, the indies, will struggle in such a market because they (again in my humble opinion) dont have the resources to profit as easily from global market opportunities as the major labels.
Anyways, thanks for posting good and valid arguments, I will definitely store them for future use..
I WANT a new market to grow forth. But very often I see TPB and similar services recognised as "front soldiers" for this struggle. I find this to be a false illusion that I wanted to challenge.
In my perfect world, people would fill TPB with the NEW and FREE music. How can we make that happen, is my simple question?
Actually I think you are right, but still wouldn't you expect such artists to both get alot of attention on til filesharing services in lack of other distribution?
And it still kinda raises the question to how likely this actually is to happen very often, and if this happens enough to bring the dinos of the major label industry to their knees. I feel pretty confident that the same minute an artist strikes lucky and is "lifted" by the internet community he/she will be in the pocket of the major biz pretty fast. Simply because there is no other alternatives on how to cash in the dough in a global and very complcated market.
Anyways, thanks for very useful and valid additional info to my post. I see that I will have no chance to answer all posts rolling in, so if anyone feel they really wanna discuss this with me, feel free to mail me at my gmail-adress, at account name "djredo".
I pretty much find this a valid and good argument. It might reduce the willingness to take risk på biggerlabels, but on the other hand Indies has always been prone to take more risk than major label companies.
I see some other implications, f.i. it also would affect the possible "lifespan" income of artists significantly: However this is already a problem since the expected lifespan of an artists career has dropped significantly due to stuff that the Biz has brought onto themselves (at least back here).
Anyway: I think you are absolutely right that revising the copyright system is one of the things that could change things. But its a big task, and involves lobbyism and other crap that is out of the sphere where "you and med" can make a change. I still think there must be other ways to get more focus on how we can avoid being stuck with the major labels consolidating their marketing power through the (supposed) user controlled channels, and posting this reflection was my humble contribution...:-)
It is of course not possible to supply hard evidence on something that "didnt happen".
But its a fact that in my 15+ years as a net and music junkie, I still have not seen one single artist that actually made a career this way. I guess it could be different in f.i. the USA, where there is alot more mobility and a far larger audience.
One thing that is hard to come around is the fact that the music biz is profit driven. If there really was a vivid indipendent scene that was growing up by the means of filesharing, we would have seen attempts to control it a long time ago.
TBH i dont think the music industry has reflected much around this, as they really, really think that a file downloaded is a sale lost. I WANT to see a new and revised music scene grow forth, but the above mentioned tendency to follow the marketing of themajor labels is in my humble opinion a major problem to actually see this happen.
My attempts to bring it into the debate in the music biz has partly been striked down upon, as the major industry still has a utopian dream of making the "new world" fit into their old and geographically oriented systems. The problem seems to be that us filesharers seem to lack the fantasy, drive or conciousness to make it happen as well.
I guess the question is: why does people listen to shitty music. A quick look at the Top100 at Pirate Bay clearly shows that however lousy people fint this music, they are not lifting a finger to bring any other music to the table. Its actually kinda ironic, TPB and the likes are on one hand seen as driving forward the "new music scene"; but on the other hand you will find nothing but major label crap there...
I also remember the hometaping-campaign, which at least back here in norway ended up with a special tax on recording tapes. The money brought in by this tax is still up to this day given to artists who apply as funding for recordings etc. So was not all a waste, even though i totally agree with you that the campaigning throughout the years has been a trial of disater alltogether...
Your post needs some thought. Shooting from the hip I am not sure that sponsorships will generate the vivid scene that _me personally_ would like to see. Lots of this is already happening, and you are definitely onto something here. But the implications of an "anarchistic" music scene is very big, and would leave us with something very different from what people see today. I am not sure people are ready for this... yet. AT least im not sure I am...:-D
Im a dedicated user of last.fm for about 3 years, and i agree with you in most all you say. Still, last.fm needs a vivid music scene to avoid stagnation and becoming a rating on what most people has been listening to the last months or years. So last.fm or similar services might very well be one of the main legs of a future music scene, I totally agree with you there...
Well I disagree with you here to a certain degree. First of all: I know its impossible to control what the individual user does. But thes "pirates" (i dont like the term) have a choice. There is free music out there for everyone to fill their HDs. Supporting these artists instead of running like mindless sheeps to download whatever you saw on MTV would advocate change. But this is not what happens.
The music business is not only about distribution. Its also about quality assurance, artist development and knowledge about trends in the market. Most all files you find on TPB are there because of this work being done (yes, in the hope of making a profit).
You might very well be correct about a totally new model developing from this, but it clearly will be very, very different from what people see today. Neither you nor me can say much about how it would be but its not possible to maintain the semi-professional scene that Indies provide and TPB profit on within these boundaries as its simply not econimically .
And im not sure people want that. They would like the best of both worlds, but im not sure it can be had in long run. In danger of repeating myself: its hard to compete with a free lunch.
The point being that good music always has a market potential. This is something filesharers must deeal with. If you want music to be free, the best way to provoce change is not downloading the artists that charge for their music, but supporting thos who dont. This is sociology, not technology, and it plays an important role in how the music scene will develop. Filesharers cant expect the distribution system to change without the product (or quality(diversity of the product) to change as well.
I am merely asking if most file sharers give this any thought. Im of course well aware that it is technologically impossible to control, but im also well aware it can be controlled alot more than today, and im interested in what price this comes at. So should the filesharers be.
Its a well established fact that there is not enough bandwith for all to actually fill the pipe they subscribe for. Anyways, this is not something you can blame on the music biz, wether major or indies...
Slashdot Mirror
Thanks for posting
Sounds like a very good idea, and i'd really like to see that list myself.
Thanks for posting.
Im not surprised, im just not sure the average filesharing person is aware of this and aware of the power (and responsibility) placed upon their shoulders...
Thanks for posting
I endorse your comment, and this is what concerns me. What I want to see in my perfect world is the filesharers being able to kick the major biz in the nuts buy ripping out the good free music in a way that KEEPS it free.
Someone in here mentioned non-mandatory micro-royalties. I find that idea very intersting. Another thought i have been plying with, is giving the filesharers the role and the INCOME of the traditional distributor. But It would take laot of time to present, so i'll live it be...
Thanks for posting.
this pretty much sums up my concern in a good way. I'd like to see the pirates give this a little more thought, so that the good free music actually WILL be given a vivid marketing place...
Thanks for posting
I humbly disagree (totally...hehe) to your analysis of the quality of major biz music compared to indie music. As I read your arguments you basically want to keep the commercial music scene strong and healthy.
The micro-royalty idea is an idea I have seen brought forward many times the latter years, and I think it is a very interesting thought. Do you or anyone else here know if there are any initiative going on that is worth readin up on?
Thanks for posting.
If thats all you pulled out from my posting, i have failed epicly in bringing my point forward.
I dont run a label anymore, mainly because I found the whole biz to be annoyingly counter-intuitive (in lack of a better word in my limited vocabulary).
I WANT to see a new era grow forth, and my post was a concern on why this is not happening after ten years of mindless arguing from both the biz and the filesharing community (pirates, althoug i dont like the expression too much)
BTW: Ill definitely check out your horror movie project. I love low budget horror. Check out this norwegian nazi-zombie project if u are inetrested (think the page is only in norwegian, but obviously the dialouge is not the main issue)
http://www.dodsno.no/
thanks for posting.
You make a strong and valid argument.
There are some problems you dont adress though:
The main one is that where the RIAA major labels have a strong and global distribution running at any time, the indies don't as it is immensly costly.
So where the major's still can maintain a steady income on physical objects, the Indies are seeing a major setback competition wise. I have seen several reports pointing out this problem, unfortunately none that I can find now.
anyways, thanks for interasting post
Thanks for posting.
Its not that simple, and I find your statements very over-simplified. But since you seem to belive this, im gonna tell you why with the risk of just feeding a troll...
If I had alot of money to market music, I could make the most sucky artist ever top the TPB sharts, just like Britney Schmears or Schmo-Rida has done. ;-)
If I have the best artist in the world, but only a few dough to market it, I wont stand a chance achieving it without a miracle striking down.
And again: this has nothing to do with me. My label is now history for other reasons than filsesharing.
Hey. Thanks for posting!
I dont share your enthusiasm. :-)
The main reason is that I in general "hate" mainstream music. I am afraid that the mainstream music will be even more dominant, while the rest will be more niche than ever before. I want good services to provide me with the cool stuff from the free music scene, and I want it to have a measurable impact. As I get you, you dont think its possible. Im afraid you are right, but I hope not
I clearly remeber those days, I even had a song with my own band up as "pick of the week" in the early days of mp3.com, and it surely had an effect.
So I totally agree with you, and this is part of my agenda. Why is the community not able to make a service just as popular as TPB based on the free and interesting music out there? Id love to see it!
Last.fm might be on a good track towards this, but again the problem is that as soon as major commercial acts are mixed into it the services has a tendency to collapse under their own weight, like myspace has done.
Hey and thanks for posting.
There's probably alot passing me by, unfortunately I only have one life to spend on all the cool stuff on the net...
I will note down your thoughts about BT-communities. My point was not to nail TPB to the wall though, just to argue that there is seemingly no measurable effect on what music the net community listens to compared to the "ordinary" market.
Anyways, Im not at all afriad to say I might be wrong on some of this. On the other hand I see indies dying like flies, while I don't see any other damage to the major biz than some scratches in the paint. And it confuses me and makes me concerned.
Thanks for posting.
If thats how you interpret my post, Im have failed to bring my point forth.
I dont even run a label anymore.
Im simply stating that the music biz scene seems to be more consolidated than ever, and I am aware (and thought I made this clear) that TPB is expected to reflect the marketing of the major biz. Im merely pointing out that this actually strengthens the "arch enemy" rather than advocating change...
THanks for posting.
I realise that its impossible to bring solid "evidence" to what is happening, and at what price it comes. I could write a book about it, but I wanted to keep it short to make my point. Not more, not less.
Im probably an idiot to try to post the "reader's Digest" version inside the temple of nerds, but hopefully I can start some refelctions that can contribute to the future market being brn.
That sais I know that your arguments are 100% valid. The problem is that I (and this is MY personal view) am afraid that the major labels will be stronger than ever, while all the other markets will be, as you point out, niches. The stuff in between, the indies, will struggle in such a market because they (again in my humble opinion) dont have the resources to profit as easily from global market opportunities as the major labels.
Anyways, thanks for posting good and valid arguments, I will definitely store them for future use..
Hey, im not selling myself mate...
I WANT a new market to grow forth. But very often I see TPB and similar services recognised as "front soldiers" for this struggle. I find this to be a false illusion that I wanted to challenge.
In my perfect world, people would fill TPB with the NEW and FREE music. How can we make that happen, is my simple question?
Thanks for posting
Actually I think you are right, but still wouldn't you expect such artists to both get alot of attention on til filesharing services in lack of other distribution?
And it still kinda raises the question to how likely this actually is to happen very often, and if this happens enough to bring the dinos of the major label industry to their knees. I feel pretty confident that the same minute an artist strikes lucky and is "lifted" by the internet community he/she will be in the pocket of the major biz pretty fast. Simply because there is no other alternatives on how to cash in the dough in a global and very complcated market.
Anyways, thanks for very useful and valid additional info to my post. I see that I will have no chance to answer all posts rolling in, so if anyone feel they really wanna discuss this with me, feel free to mail me at my gmail-adress, at account name "djredo".
Actually not a bad idea, but still not quite the permanent solution I am hoping to se being born sometime in a not-so-distant future. ;-)
Hey, and thanks for posting.
I pretty much find this a valid and good argument.
It might reduce the willingness to take risk på biggerlabels, but on the other hand Indies has always been prone to take more risk than major label companies.
I see some other implications, f.i. it also would affect the possible "lifespan" income of artists significantly: However this is already a problem since the expected lifespan of an artists career has dropped significantly due to stuff that the Biz has brought onto themselves (at least back here).
Anyway: I think you are absolutely right that revising the copyright system is one of the things that could change things. But its a big task, and involves lobbyism and other crap that is out of the sphere where "you and med" can make a change. I still think there must be other ways to get more focus on how we can avoid being stuck with the major labels consolidating their marketing power through the (supposed) user controlled channels, and posting this reflection was my humble contribution... :-)
Hello, and thanx for your post.
First: It is not a claim, its a _reflection_
It is of course not possible to supply hard evidence on something that "didnt happen".
But its a fact that in my 15+ years as a net and music junkie, I still have not seen one single artist that actually made a career this way. I guess it could be different in f.i. the USA, where there is alot more mobility and a far larger audience.
One thing that is hard to come around is the fact that the music biz is profit driven. If there really was a vivid indipendent scene that was growing up by the means of filesharing, we would have seen attempts to control it a long time ago.
TBH i dont think the music industry has reflected much around this, as they really, really think that a file downloaded is a sale lost. I WANT to see a new and revised music scene grow forth, but the above mentioned tendency to follow the marketing of themajor labels is in my humble opinion a major problem to actually see this happen.
My attempts to bring it into the debate in the music biz has partly been striked down upon, as the major industry still has a utopian dream of making the "new world" fit into their old and geographically oriented systems. The problem seems to be that us filesharers seem to lack the fantasy, drive or conciousness to make it happen as well.
I guess the question is: why does people listen to shitty music. A quick look at the Top100 at Pirate Bay clearly shows that however lousy people fint this music, they are not lifting a finger to bring any other music to the table. Its actually kinda ironic, TPB and the likes are on one hand seen as driving forward the "new music scene"; but on the other hand you will find nothing but major label crap there...
I also remember the hometaping-campaign, which at least back here in norway ended up with a special tax on recording tapes. The money brought in by this tax is still up to this day given to artists who apply as funding for recordings etc. So was not all a waste, even though i totally agree with you that the campaigning throughout the years has been a trial of disater alltogether...
No, but if someone started handing the food out the window to their non-paying friends I would.
that came out wrong. What i meant was that I need to think a bit about your post... :-)
Thanks for posting.
Your post needs some thought. Shooting from the hip I am not sure that sponsorships will generate the vivid scene that _me personally_ would like to see. Lots of this is already happening, and you are definitely onto something here. But the implications of an "anarchistic" music scene is very big, and would leave us with something very different from what people see today. I am not sure people are ready for this... yet. AT least im not sure I am... :-D
Im a dedicated user of last.fm for about 3 years, and i agree with you in most all you say. Still, last.fm needs a vivid music scene to avoid stagnation and becoming a rating on what most people has been listening to the last months or years. So last.fm or similar services might very well be one of the main legs of a future music scene, I totally agree with you there...
Thanks for posting.
Well I disagree with you here to a certain degree. First of all: I know its impossible to control what the individual user does. But thes "pirates" (i dont like the term) have a choice. There is free music out there for everyone to fill their HDs. Supporting these artists instead of running like mindless sheeps to download whatever you saw on MTV would advocate change. But this is not what happens.
The music business is not only about distribution. Its also about quality assurance, artist development and knowledge about trends in the market. Most all files you find on TPB are there because of this work being done (yes, in the hope of making a profit).
You might very well be correct about a totally new model developing from this, but it clearly will be very, very different from what people see today. Neither you nor me can say much about how it would be but its not possible to maintain the semi-professional scene that Indies provide and TPB profit on within these boundaries as its simply not econimically .
And im not sure people want that. They would like the best of both worlds, but im not sure it can be had in long run. In danger of repeating myself: its hard to compete with a free lunch.
The point being that good music always has a market potential. This is something filesharers must deeal with. If you want music to be free, the best way to provoce change is not downloading the artists that charge for their music, but supporting thos who dont. This is sociology, not technology, and it plays an important role in how the music scene will develop. Filesharers cant expect the distribution system to change without the product (or quality(diversity of the product) to change as well.
I am merely asking if most file sharers give this any thought. Im of course well aware that it is technologically impossible to control, but im also well aware it can be controlled alot more than today, and im interested in what price this comes at. So should the filesharers be.
Its a well established fact that there is not enough bandwith for all to actually fill the pipe they subscribe for. Anyways, this is not something you can blame on the music biz, wether major or indies...