"Israel is a democracy and doesn't oppress its own citizens"... (as long as they are Jewish)
"but it behaves like a dick towards other peoples."
A better analogy is like a monster; over 60 years of continuous inhuman oppression, cruelty and cold-blooded murder. Combined with so many lies! My god, such cold blood. Using the good will toward the Jewish people to take every advantage. Look at the troll who started this thread, using the same mendacious claims that we've heard a thousand times, all twisted and designed to cast doubt on plain facts. Never a moment of honest debate, just move to the next talking point then move to the next forum. They have a govt department with pamphlet for Hisbaratchniks to use to troll internet forums and keep the disinformation alive as awareness of the honest facts of this land grab is the end of it. Happily that day is dawning!
Just referring to your trolling taken to the comical level. Picture Charlie Chaplin doing physical gags, made funnier bc they are so obviously stupid and familiar, with big sad eyes after each pratfall. I just don't see that level of blackface here on slashdot very often.
Israel has brought their brought their worldwide pariah status on themselves through sustained brutality and criminality combined with a uniquely malicious style of one-sided, distorted and condescending rhetoric. like you're doing here.
Justifying your incredibly cruel occupation and ethnic cleansing campaign by saying that others are worse is not only untrue, it's irrelevant. Your colonial enterprise is destined to implode under its own racism, inhumanity and illegality, NOT under it's Jewishness.
Actually, Kuwait was a complete setup. Kuwait was slant drilling into a disputed oil field and this feud went on for quite some time. (very likely at US bidding) The US ambassador told her Iraqi counterpart that the US had no interest in their regional squabble. As soon as Iraq moved to physically stop Kuwait the US made their move, falsified stories of the incubators, falsified stories of Iraqi troop movements, and other things to paint the picture to justify the attack on Iraq and bring it down. The reason is that Saddam was losing his ability to control the Baath party and becoming an increasingly unreliable puppet. and of course this was primarily a concern for Israel more than anything else. Hence the first war, the sanctions and the eventual coup de grace once they were completely broken and had the right political conditions to pull off the illegal invasion.
Dude just hates the US or is scared that others will come after him
Or the dude hasn't received anonymous submissions from those countries. (actually, he has released a few things from other countires, Nigeria I recall, and there's the Swiss banking stuff but not sure where else) But the USA is the fattest of fat targets, English speaking and hated worldwide, so it stands to reason that they would be featured.
clearly they are relying on the blind patriotism disorder to win the day at home, plus they know the media is in lockstep to relegate doubters to the 'lunatic fringe'. done and done.
"Also, Bin Laden admitted or demonstrated his association with the 9/11 attacks on multiple occasions."
Bin Laden explicitly denied his involvement immediately afterwards, and then several other times (while praising its righteousness). Of course he may be lying, but that would be a strange thing for him to do considering his open declaration of war against America, it should be a time for him to sing it from the rooftops. that later 'admission' tape has never been considered credible as it is clearly not OBL sitting there, along with the several other bogus videos and recordings issued by persons unknown.
But this does not relieve him of culpability in other terrorist acts he did claim responsibility for, I'm not saying he shouldnt have been captured and tried in court.
But come on! OBL, the entire 9/11 incident and the subsequent War on Terror TM narrative stinks to high heaven. Bush summarily pinned it on "Al Qaeda" and OBL about a day or two afterwards, no investigation was done. And speaking of investigations, there never was a credible investigation of 9/11. Even the limited show inquiry has never been fully released to the public because it would simply beg the questions and it obviously opened up a bunch of new questions. This massive crime, hugely symbolic successful attack, revealing a complete breakdown of normal defenses, so many intriguing questions all swept under the rug and summarily pinned on this one former CIA asset.
The perfidy of this latest OBL story is in perfect synch with a pattern of deceit.
I wasn't calling for photos to settle this matter. Photos would be something greater than assertion, I would certainly look at them. I'm not sure they would be conclusive, regardless of the source, but with a worldwide crowd looking at this evidence, doing forensics on them, something valid could be produced.
of course, an autopsy is the usual method and the fact that that surefire proof was quickly made impossible is unfortunate for the govt.
Heh, i reread that last sentence and wonder to myself, what is 'unfortunate' to these people? They are fully divorced from all accountability in words and deeds. which btw is why wikileaks suddenly became enemy #1, the piercing of the bubble of immunity was/is horrifying.
"On balance of the evidence, the only plausible scenario is that the US version of events is - modulo a few details about who shot whom, when, and in which room - generally truthful."
Evidence? There is zero evidence. We are relying on statements by the US Govt.The US Government! They lie about everything, constantly. why would you believe this one with zero evidence?
i just hope they don't start dropping hellfire and bunker busters on our country, that's when it goes from bogeyman propaganda to millions of real dead loved ones.
i'm very concerned. this madman you speak of is a cartoon, and with _zero_ evidence you're all for vigilante justice with a few million men, women and children in collateral damage along the way. when exactly do you start to get concerned?
"So Al Quida itself saying to OBL is dead isn't good enough for you?"
WHICH verified spokesman of WHICH "Al Qaeda" was that again?
this is how the govt gets through its day, even a lot of slashdotters are ready to ignore obvious flaws. It's like how kids believe in Santa Claus long after the writing is on the walls in giant letters, they just want to believe.
I'll bite.
The US govt. has proven itself capable of massive coordinated fraud, (not just once or twice mind you) and there is seemingly no limit to that. Lying, obfuscating and withholding is what they do as a rule, (not unique to the US Gov of course) and in this case, nothing has been consistent or verifiable. Withholding and destroying the evidence on flimsy rationale to boot.
Statements from "Al Qaeda" are de facto useless as the mere claim of a "statement from Al Qaeda" is a non sequitor since there is no "AL Qaeda" in the sense of a top-down centralized org. Should some valid terrorist cell, or a CIA cell wish to pose as the voice of Al Qaeda, their word is about as useful as the US Gov., but the former's intelligence capability is highly questionable.
Iran is not the only one who has been convinced of OBL's demise many years ago, OBL abruptly stopped his regular inspirational messages after the Tora Bora assault (and several obviously bogus ones took their place). There is no reason to think he was alive, (other than the USGov saying he was, but again, their credibility is less than zero in this situation)
If his son actually wrote that letter, it's unlikely that he would have any knowledge of the situation more than you or me. It doesn't help that the entire article is so tabloid-credible.
Ditto the "Talibani" tribesmen. More or less credible than the yahoos shouting "USA-USA" on TV?
Bottom line, we all have nothing to go on but statements from the US Gov, a story which started unravelling within hours and by now is almost a completely different story. No valid reason to withhold any evidence. Dumping the body at sea on ridiculous pretense. Combined with the fact that OBL has been silent since the time he was cornered in the mountains, on dialysis and on the run, leads one to think that this is simply more political theater for the gullible masses. Theater that most conveniently has the effect of both fluffing the USA cred and pumping up the flagging War on Terror brand, both of which have been falling on hard times.
And you conclude by saying that to think otherwise is evidence of sheer lunacy, a reliable sign that you know you've put together a weak argument. It seems to me that anyone who simply _believes_ ANY statement from the US govt is just emotionally invested in a fantasy of essential-goodness. Which is what you've put forward, mere belief in official statements.
"The fact that your fallacious conclusion was moderated +5 proves the system is flawed."
mod parent up
mod his parent's parent down
then please mod his parent's parent's parent up
disagree? then this reveals the irony of this flawed mod system that is better than all the rest until you express minority opinions which contradict the libertarian groupthink which fails to get the point and expresses disagreement with negative moderation, once and for all, proving the system in certain situations to be, indeed, flawed.
If the forum is open to everyone and it's about politics, then you are going to deal with a lot of trolls and zealots and astroturf operations. You cannot avoid that, but for my money, just letting it be what it is and having some type of "report spam" button is the way to go. Cut it off after some number of days or hours hrs. Oh, and allow anonymous comments and make sure it's threaded.
Agree with the questionable timing, but not so much about the conspiracy problem. the only people who have to keep the secret are whomever was in the room with obama, the same folks who also know the full story behind 9/11. and there are also bullets for traitors if the sheer ignominy isn't sufficient. and there's some number of Navy Seals who are probably as trustworthy as it gets. Deception is a standard war tactic, it's not a stretch to believe a deception like this is in the best interest of the war effort.
Compared to the notion that OBL is hanging out in a large fenced off compound a mile from a military base and noone knows for years. And also that he decided to retire from his role as an inspiration to the jihadists for over 9 years in the face of so many outrages against his people? That alone seems the best evidence of his being long dead.
of course, one might consider that he never stopped being a CIA asset, really was alive awaiting further instruction!
I think your option one is very plausible. Why now instead of earlier? They may have not gotten confirmation of his demise until more recently, or they may have preferred to preserve the PR benefits until now. And why now and not even later? I'm not seeing any clear rationale, but the support for war in Afghanistan is a real problem right now so this could provide a boost, or maybe they're thinking of wrapping this war before the election and this will help sell the 'mission accomplished' idea? or maybe something else forced their hand that we'll never know about.
The fact that they have produced no evidence is extremely suspicious combined with the fact that Osama hasn't communicated since Tora Bora, was not well--on dialysis. Which means he was either captured and couldnt communicate or he died, most likely he died since capturing him would have been fantastic news. (but would have taken the wind out of the war against Iraq and all the rest of the post 9/11 cashflow, so it's somewhat plausible they would sit on it to keep that larger agenda on track)
you make a valid observation; "terrorism works", but do you really think there isn't a downside to that strategy? Take your prime example, Israel, worldwide pariah that will fall into the dustbin of history in our lifetimes. The USA has not coincidentally slid downhill rapidly since the adoption of the Israeli strategy and is on its way to collapse as well. The basic fact is that violence does work, but is contrary to the evolution of humanity and is fought against by every decent person within and without until it is ended.
but there's fabulous profit to be made in the interim!
Slashdot Mirror
Here's a brilliant comment on the wikileaks thang: The Rap News
come on MR, take a long breath. don't long to be something "great", be what you ARE...an irreplaceable part of the infinite wonder of this world.
shalom
that's an interesting angle. Is it that he speaks and behaves like a white person? ie., sets a 'good' example?
(not trolling)
"Israel is a democracy and doesn't oppress its own citizens" ... (as long as they are Jewish)
"but it behaves like a dick towards other peoples."
A better analogy is like a monster; over 60 years of continuous inhuman oppression, cruelty and cold-blooded murder. Combined with so many lies! My god, such cold blood. Using the good will toward the Jewish people to take every advantage. Look at the troll who started this thread, using the same mendacious claims that we've heard a thousand times, all twisted and designed to cast doubt on plain facts. Never a moment of honest debate, just move to the next talking point then move to the next forum. They have a govt department with pamphlet for Hisbaratchniks to use to troll internet forums and keep the disinformation alive as awareness of the honest facts of this land grab is the end of it. Happily that day is dawning!
Just referring to your trolling taken to the comical level. Picture Charlie Chaplin doing physical gags, made funnier bc they are so obviously stupid and familiar, with big sad eyes after each pratfall. I just don't see that level of blackface here on slashdot very often.
Justifying your incredibly cruel occupation and ethnic cleansing campaign by saying that others are worse is not only untrue, it's irrelevant. Your colonial enterprise is destined to implode under its own racism, inhumanity and illegality, NOT under it's Jewishness.
you are a real live cartoon! hilarious!!!
Actually, Kuwait was a complete setup. Kuwait was slant drilling into a disputed oil field and this feud went on for quite some time. (very likely at US bidding) The US ambassador told her Iraqi counterpart that the US had no interest in their regional squabble. As soon as Iraq moved to physically stop Kuwait the US made their move, falsified stories of the incubators, falsified stories of Iraqi troop movements, and other things to paint the picture to justify the attack on Iraq and bring it down. The reason is that Saddam was losing his ability to control the Baath party and becoming an increasingly unreliable puppet. and of course this was primarily a concern for Israel more than anything else. Hence the first war, the sanctions and the eventual coup de grace once they were completely broken and had the right political conditions to pull off the illegal invasion.
Dude just hates the US or is scared that others will come after him
Or the dude hasn't received anonymous submissions from those countries. (actually, he has released a few things from other countires, Nigeria I recall, and there's the Swiss banking stuff but not sure where else) But the USA is the fattest of fat targets, English speaking and hated worldwide, so it stands to reason that they would be featured.
clearly they are relying on the blind patriotism disorder to win the day at home, plus they know the media is in lockstep to relegate doubters to the 'lunatic fringe'. done and done.
"Also, Bin Laden admitted or demonstrated his association with the 9/11 attacks on multiple occasions."
Bin Laden explicitly denied his involvement immediately afterwards, and then several other times (while praising its righteousness). Of course he may be lying, but that would be a strange thing for him to do considering his open declaration of war against America, it should be a time for him to sing it from the rooftops. that later 'admission' tape has never been considered credible as it is clearly not OBL sitting there, along with the several other bogus videos and recordings issued by persons unknown.
But this does not relieve him of culpability in other terrorist acts he did claim responsibility for, I'm not saying he shouldnt have been captured and tried in court.
But come on! OBL, the entire 9/11 incident and the subsequent War on Terror TM narrative stinks to high heaven. Bush summarily pinned it on "Al Qaeda" and OBL about a day or two afterwards, no investigation was done. And speaking of investigations, there never was a credible investigation of 9/11. Even the limited show inquiry has never been fully released to the public because it would simply beg the questions and it obviously opened up a bunch of new questions. This massive crime, hugely symbolic successful attack, revealing a complete breakdown of normal defenses, so many intriguing questions all swept under the rug and summarily pinned on this one former CIA asset.
The perfidy of this latest OBL story is in perfect synch with a pattern of deceit.
I wasn't calling for photos to settle this matter. Photos would be something greater than assertion, I would certainly look at them. I'm not sure they would be conclusive, regardless of the source, but with a worldwide crowd looking at this evidence, doing forensics on them, something valid could be produced.
of course, an autopsy is the usual method and the fact that that surefire proof was quickly made impossible is unfortunate for the govt.
Heh, i reread that last sentence and wonder to myself, what is 'unfortunate' to these people? They are fully divorced from all accountability in words and deeds. which btw is why wikileaks suddenly became enemy #1, the piercing of the bubble of immunity was/is horrifying.
Your summary is loopy, which is why your conclusion doesn't work.
"On balance of the evidence, the only plausible scenario is that the US version of events is - modulo a few details about who shot whom, when, and in which room - generally truthful."
Evidence? There is zero evidence. We are relying on statements by the US Govt.The US Government! They lie about everything, constantly. why would you believe this one with zero evidence?
i just hope they don't start dropping hellfire and bunker busters on our country, that's when it goes from bogeyman propaganda to millions of real dead loved ones.
i'm very concerned. this madman you speak of is a cartoon, and with _zero_ evidence you're all for vigilante justice with a few million men, women and children in collateral damage along the way. when exactly do you start to get concerned?
"So Al Quida itself saying to OBL is dead isn't good enough for you?"
WHICH verified spokesman of WHICH "Al Qaeda" was that again?
this is how the govt gets through its day, even a lot of slashdotters are ready to ignore obvious flaws. It's like how kids believe in Santa Claus long after the writing is on the walls in giant letters, they just want to believe.
I'll bite.
The US govt. has proven itself capable of massive coordinated fraud, (not just once or twice mind you) and there is seemingly no limit to that. Lying, obfuscating and withholding is what they do as a rule, (not unique to the US Gov of course) and in this case, nothing has been consistent or verifiable. Withholding and destroying the evidence on flimsy rationale to boot.
Statements from "Al Qaeda" are de facto useless as the mere claim of a "statement from Al Qaeda" is a non sequitor since there is no "AL Qaeda" in the sense of a top-down centralized org. Should some valid terrorist cell, or a CIA cell wish to pose as the voice of Al Qaeda, their word is about as useful as the US Gov., but the former's intelligence capability is highly questionable.
Iran is not the only one who has been convinced of OBL's demise many years ago, OBL abruptly stopped his regular inspirational messages after the Tora Bora assault (and several obviously bogus ones took their place). There is no reason to think he was alive, (other than the USGov saying he was, but again, their credibility is less than zero in this situation)
If his son actually wrote that letter, it's unlikely that he would have any knowledge of the situation more than you or me. It doesn't help that the entire article is so tabloid-credible.
Ditto the "Talibani" tribesmen. More or less credible than the yahoos shouting "USA-USA" on TV?
Bottom line, we all have nothing to go on but statements from the US Gov, a story which started unravelling within hours and by now is almost a completely different story. No valid reason to withhold any evidence. Dumping the body at sea on ridiculous pretense. Combined with the fact that OBL has been silent since the time he was cornered in the mountains, on dialysis and on the run, leads one to think that this is simply more political theater for the gullible masses. Theater that most conveniently has the effect of both fluffing the USA cred and pumping up the flagging War on Terror brand, both of which have been falling on hard times.
And you conclude by saying that to think otherwise is evidence of sheer lunacy, a reliable sign that you know you've put together a weak argument. It seems to me that anyone who simply _believes_ ANY statement from the US govt is just emotionally invested in a fantasy of essential-goodness. Which is what you've put forward, mere belief in official statements.
"There are three things you can pick: Fast, Cheap, Tested"
i think you meant to say "there are two things you can pick, out of these three"
a variation on the old; "we can produce quality, fast and inexpensive...you can pick two"
"The fact that your fallacious conclusion was moderated +5 proves the system is flawed."
mod parent up
mod his parent's parent down
then please mod his parent's parent's parent up
disagree? then this reveals the irony of this flawed mod system that is better than all the rest until you express minority opinions which contradict the libertarian groupthink which fails to get the point and expresses disagreement with negative moderation, once and for all, proving the system in certain situations to be, indeed, flawed.
i'm gonna get modded into oblivion for this
If the forum is open to everyone and it's about politics, then you are going to deal with a lot of trolls and zealots and astroturf operations. You cannot avoid that, but for my money, just letting it be what it is and having some type of "report spam" button is the way to go. Cut it off after some number of days or hours hrs. Oh, and allow anonymous comments and make sure it's threaded.
Agree with the questionable timing, but not so much about the conspiracy problem. the only people who have to keep the secret are whomever was in the room with obama, the same folks who also know the full story behind 9/11. and there are also bullets for traitors if the sheer ignominy isn't sufficient. and there's some number of Navy Seals who are probably as trustworthy as it gets. Deception is a standard war tactic, it's not a stretch to believe a deception like this is in the best interest of the war effort.
Compared to the notion that OBL is hanging out in a large fenced off compound a mile from a military base and noone knows for years. And also that he decided to retire from his role as an inspiration to the jihadists for over 9 years in the face of so many outrages against his people? That alone seems the best evidence of his being long dead.
of course, one might consider that he never stopped being a CIA asset, really was alive awaiting further instruction!
I think your option one is very plausible. Why now instead of earlier? They may have not gotten confirmation of his demise until more recently, or they may have preferred to preserve the PR benefits until now. And why now and not even later? I'm not seeing any clear rationale, but the support for war in Afghanistan is a real problem right now so this could provide a boost, or maybe they're thinking of wrapping this war before the election and this will help sell the 'mission accomplished' idea? or maybe something else forced their hand that we'll never know about.
The fact that they have produced no evidence is extremely suspicious combined with the fact that Osama hasn't communicated since Tora Bora, was not well--on dialysis. Which means he was either captured and couldnt communicate or he died, most likely he died since capturing him would have been fantastic news. (but would have taken the wind out of the war against Iraq and all the rest of the post 9/11 cashflow, so it's somewhat plausible they would sit on it to keep that larger agenda on track)
"identifying"
you make a valid observation; "terrorism works", but do you really think there isn't a downside to that strategy? Take your prime example, Israel, worldwide pariah that will fall into the dustbin of history in our lifetimes. The USA has not coincidentally slid downhill rapidly since the adoption of the Israeli strategy and is on its way to collapse as well. The basic fact is that violence does work, but is contrary to the evolution of humanity and is fought against by every decent person within and without until it is ended.
but there's fabulous profit to be made in the interim!