G37 S 0-60 ($37k): 4,9s Q50 0-60 ($45k): 5,1s (Q50 Red Sport 400 ($58k): 4,5s) Model 3 SR ($35k): 5,6s Model 3 LR ($44k): 5,1s Model 3 SR/LR with performance package: Announced, but performance and pricing TBD.
Given the typical torque-power curves of ICEs and EVs, the two ICEs would probably match the Model 3 variants somewhere around 0-40 to 0-60, with the ICEs winning beyond that and the Model 3s winning below that. As for the performance Model 3s, who knows? Obviously they won't have it threaten a P100D, but I'd wager that for the LR it'd go for somewhere in the 3,5-4,2s ballpark, and add around $10k to the price; it's cheaper to up an EV's accel than a gasoline vehicle's.
Yeah, it was a transitional model. They stopped producing the 60s, but until they felt that they didn't need a 60 on the market, they kept selling 60s via software-limited 75 packs. It was an incredible deal for buyers, for lots of reasons. One, you could always upgrade later, which decreased your car's depreciation. Two, since you're effectively running at a lower DoD, you're decreasing pack degradation (relative to both those who owned actual 60s, and those who had the full 75). And three, it also could charge faster than a 60, since it was actually a larger pack.
One of the challenges for any manufacturer is to try to get buyers to spend "as much as they can"; you don't want to leave money on the table with your high-end buyers, but at the same time don't want to price your low-end buyers out of the market. Often this is done by a variety of premium packages, which they try to make as tempting as possible. With EVs, pack sizes can also be added to this list - with the caveat that you don't want to have to maintain an excessive number of manufacturing lines open for differing pack sizes (and engineering validation, and inventory, etc, etc). So software limitation is a good way to balance these conflicting priorities.
Yeah, except for the fact that they have a 25% profit margin on their lines.
You're confusing the profit per vehicle with the amount being invested into scaleup. Believe it or not - and this may come as the shock of all shockers to you - building the world's largest battery plant and a 500k-per-year vehicle production line actually costs a good bit of money.
How the hell do you have an 'AI chip' when we don't have anything like actual 'AI' to start with?
Nobody is talking about "generalized AI". The topic of concern is very specialized AI tasks. We have a wide variety of AI systems in use for specialized tasks in our everyday lives - particularly in the topic of image recognition.
Also how the hell do you have a 'self driving car chip' when the technology realisitically isn't even really close to ready for the general public?
It's already very popular among many Tesla users (particularly if you're stuck in traffic). But nobody is talking about the entire software stack being implemented in hardware and thus being permanently locked down. What's being discussed is offloading specific CPU-intensive image and radar processing tasks to the chip.
Yeah, car wiring harnesses have grown into beasts - it's pretty crazy how much of a car's manufacturing cost they now represent. Shrinking and simplifying the wiring harness has been the biggest "non-EV-specific" issue that Tesla has been focused on tackling.
It's simpler than that - if Tesla adopts it, it will become a commodity part. Tesla is looking to start Model 3 full produciton at 500k per year, scaling up eventually to 700k per year, and then do the same with the Model Y, all just in the next several years (not to mention future products). Whether or not they manage to achieve their goals, these are their goals. Every last one of them will come with Autopilot hardware, regardless of whether or not the person purchased Autopilot. Millions of units per year is pretty much "commodity hardware" in my book.
It makes a lot more sense to have specialized hardware that can run the task much faster with much less power than to use hardware not designed for the task when you're dealing in these sorts of quantities.
I hate to burst your bubble, but there is no single "Tesla connector". In the US Tesla uses a connector designed entirely by themselves. In Europe they're mandated to have a Type 2 port - but instead of awkwardly tacking on two DC pins like CCS Combo does, they managed to work it into the already-mandated Type 2 port.
Yes, it does. Backpressure like the above reduces your vehicle's efficiency. The more the backpressure, the more work that has to be done by the engine to clear the exhaust (which is experienced as greater engine braking). That's the very reason why vehicle mileages dropped when the government started mandating cats.
Actually, I do like C++;) But discussing charge rates in mph or kph is extremely common among EV owners. Because it's literally what you're getting: X miles/kilometers range per hour of charging.
It's also worth pointing out that "6-7% loss" on a 30mpg car is 2mpg. An amount that the average person wouldn't even notice.
It's funny when people put old cars on the dynamometer how much power they turn out to have lost. There's so much that can rob a car of power as it ages. Just to pick a random example: my high mileage Insight at one point was having trouble starting, and they took out one of its catalyst packs, and discovered that it was literally clogged to the brim with carbon buildup. To the point that when they took it out it made a big mess of on the floor of the workshop.
How often does the average person remove a catalytic converter on their car?
Yes, everyone except Tesla (top EV seller in the US) and Nissan (top EV seller globally). And, of course, Honda (Fit EV). And let's not forget Citroën (C-Zero, Berlingo) Kia too, of course (Soul EV). Then there's Mazda (Demio EV). And Mitsubishi (MiEV, Outlander PHEV - the latter being the top selling PHEV in Europe) Peugeots use it too (iOn, Partner - although they're just rebadges) Subaru? You betcha (Stella) Toyota? Sure (eQ, new RAV4)
But you know, apart from all of them, nobody uses CHAdeMO.
When I randomly pull up DC charging stations in continental Europe on plugshare, that's not what I find; I find mostly A) superchargers, and B) dual-plug CHAdeMO/CCS. There's the occasional pure-CHAdeMO and the occasional pure-CCS, but I'm not finding many of them in comparison to the others.
Technically inferior.... lol. A form factor half the size of a CHAdeMO but delivering three times the current, "technically inferior"? Yeah, try again.
CHAdeMO is a pefect example of how not to design a connector. CCS combo is okay, but still a Frankenconnector, needlessly large and awkward, and with too little current support.** Tesla has by far the best connectors. Even in Europe where they were mandated to include a Type 2, they modified the Type 2 so that it can handle both low power AC and extreme power DC charging in the exact same connector. Rather than CCS which decided that you needed to add a big two pronged "growth" onto your connector to do so.
** - There are a very small number of high power CCS stations, ~150kW or so. But they do this by increasing the voltage, not the current. Which is great if you have a mythical EV with a 1000V battery pack. Even the nominal ~50kWh stations often play the voltage game; that 50kW is often assuming that you're charging at 500V, but most packs have a well lower voltage than that.
Simply not true. First off, in many places (including the US), the "majority of public chargers" are superchargers. Not that most of the DC charger icons on Plugshare will be superchargers, but simply because there's so many stalls per supercharger site.
Let's zoom out to a far view of the US and start picking random DC icons on PlugShare, shall we? Here's my results:
Dennis Dillon Nissan: EV Plug (J1772), CHAdeMO DCFC St. George Supercharger: 8 Tesla Superchargers Woodstock Supercharger: 8 Tesla Superchargers Alexandria Supercharger: 8 Tesla Superchargers AAA: CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC McAllen Supercharger: 8 Tesla Superchargers St. George Supercharger: 8 Tesla Superchargers The Shops at Sunset Place: 2 Wall Outlet (120V)s, EV Plug (J1772), CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC West Wendover Supercharger: 6 Tesla Superchargers
Hmm... to be fair, Plugshare may be biasing my random clicks because Tesla has a lot more on the interstates between cities, while all chargers inside cities get bunched together; you can see that above I ended up with 46 superchargers vs. 4 CHAdeMO and 3 CCS (the latter being in all likelyhood not on a separate charger, but rather sharing a cable with the CHAdeMOs and only able to charge one car at a time).
Let's pick a random boring city and zoom in to try to end up with a higher percentage of non-Tesla chargers... let's say, Cleveland.
Walmart: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC Walmart Supercenter: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC Walmart Supercenter: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC Walmart Supercenter: 4 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC Transformer Station Contemporary Art Space: CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC Dunkin' Donuts: 2 CHAdeMO DCFCs, 2 CCS DCFCs CNG Metro Station: CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC Walmart Supercenter: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC Macedonia Supercharger: 6 Tesla Superchargers Tesla Motors: 2 Tesla Model S / Model Xs, Tesla Supercharger Walmart: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC Walmart Supercenter: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
Notice: once again it's a bunch of shared CHAdeMO/CCS chargers.
Okay, so maybe your statement is supposed to be about Europe? Well I can assure you that at least where I am (Iceland), all of the stations are both CCS/CHAdeMO (one vehicle at a time, pick your cable). Random clicking on a map of Europe finds that this appears to be the standard.
Where are you that you're finding mainly CCS-only chargers?
The future looks likely to be a CCS variant, however. That said, Tesla is a member of CharIN, so will probably be adopting the next standard.
I'm so glad that Tesla is in CharIN, by the way. Why is it that the only company who seems to know how to engineer a proper connector is Tesla? Always sleek, easy, minimal form factors with extreme power - never giant, awkward, limited-power frankenconnectors like others seem to design.
That's simply not true. Here is a survey of data gathered from Tesla owners. Click charts. Typical first-year degradation rates are about 4%, but then it slows down significantly from there. Average year-5 degradation appears to be a total of around 6-7% versus a new pack. A gas or diesel car's efficiency (and thus range) will have generally dropped well more than that by year 5.
Exactly; when you run the numbers it's easy to see the profit margin on them. They buy power at industrial rates (huge bulk), which in the US average something like $0.06-0.07/kWh, and sell it back for $0.20/kWh. The demand charges can be significant at low/uneven utilization rates, but that's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about "when electric vehicles become more popular". The station is much cheaper than a gas station to build; a typical 8-stall supercharging station today costs around $250k on average, and we're nowhere near mass production now. Punch in the numbers at say 30% average utilization and you find that it's easy to show significant profitability.
Actually, it's really not. Note the above with the Model 3, for example: adding ~41% more range from batteries increases the vehicle mass by only 7%, which in turn translates to a loss of range at highway speeds of 2-3% 41% vs. 2-3%; it's not that meaningful. It'd be more like 5% for city driving, but then again, nobody cares about EV range in city driving - EVs go much further in city driving regardless, and who drives 310+ miles in-town-only per day?
I know it's not something ICE drivers are used to, but it's a very meaningful way to measure charge times: how many of miles of range you get per hour spent charging.
Slashdot Mirror
For those who are curious:
G37 S 0-60 ($37k): 4,9s
Q50 0-60 ($45k): 5,1s (Q50 Red Sport 400 ($58k): 4,5s)
Model 3 SR ($35k): 5,6s
Model 3 LR ($44k): 5,1s
Model 3 SR/LR with performance package: Announced, but performance and pricing TBD.
Given the typical torque-power curves of ICEs and EVs, the two ICEs would probably match the Model 3 variants somewhere around 0-40 to 0-60, with the ICEs winning beyond that and the Model 3s winning below that. As for the performance Model 3s, who knows? Obviously they won't have it threaten a P100D, but I'd wager that for the LR it'd go for somewhere in the 3,5-4,2s ballpark, and add around $10k to the price; it's cheaper to up an EV's accel than a gasoline vehicle's.
Yeah, it was a transitional model. They stopped producing the 60s, but until they felt that they didn't need a 60 on the market, they kept selling 60s via software-limited 75 packs. It was an incredible deal for buyers, for lots of reasons. One, you could always upgrade later, which decreased your car's depreciation. Two, since you're effectively running at a lower DoD, you're decreasing pack degradation (relative to both those who owned actual 60s, and those who had the full 75). And three, it also could charge faster than a 60, since it was actually a larger pack.
One of the challenges for any manufacturer is to try to get buyers to spend "as much as they can"; you don't want to leave money on the table with your high-end buyers, but at the same time don't want to price your low-end buyers out of the market. Often this is done by a variety of premium packages, which they try to make as tempting as possible. With EVs, pack sizes can also be added to this list - with the caveat that you don't want to have to maintain an excessive number of manufacturing lines open for differing pack sizes (and engineering validation, and inventory, etc, etc). So software limitation is a good way to balance these conflicting priorities.
Yeah, except for the fact that they have a 25% profit margin on their lines.
You're confusing the profit per vehicle with the amount being invested into scaleup. Believe it or not - and this may come as the shock of all shockers to you - building the world's largest battery plant and a 500k-per-year vehicle production line actually costs a good bit of money.
Funny, TSLA says otherwise.
Nobody is talking about "generalized AI". The topic of concern is very specialized AI tasks. We have a wide variety of AI systems in use for specialized tasks in our everyday lives - particularly in the topic of image recognition.
It's already very popular among many Tesla users (particularly if you're stuck in traffic). But nobody is talking about the entire software stack being implemented in hardware and thus being permanently locked down. What's being discussed is offloading specific CPU-intensive image and radar processing tasks to the chip.
Aww, how cute!
As a side note, you actually can use a mouse to control the infotainment system in Teslas by plugging it into a USB port ;) Sadly, USB keyboards don't work.
Yeah, car wiring harnesses have grown into beasts - it's pretty crazy how much of a car's manufacturing cost they now represent. Shrinking and simplifying the wiring harness has been the biggest "non-EV-specific" issue that Tesla has been focused on tackling.
It's simpler than that - if Tesla adopts it, it will become a commodity part. Tesla is looking to start Model 3 full produciton at 500k per year, scaling up eventually to 700k per year, and then do the same with the Model Y, all just in the next several years (not to mention future products). Whether or not they manage to achieve their goals, these are their goals. Every last one of them will come with Autopilot hardware, regardless of whether or not the person purchased Autopilot. Millions of units per year is pretty much "commodity hardware" in my book.
It makes a lot more sense to have specialized hardware that can run the task much faster with much less power than to use hardware not designed for the task when you're dealing in these sorts of quantities.
Sure, if you like installing objects that weigh hundreds of kilograms each.
I hate to burst your bubble, but there is no single "Tesla connector". In the US Tesla uses a connector designed entirely by themselves. In Europe they're mandated to have a Type 2 port - but instead of awkwardly tacking on two DC pins like CCS Combo does, they managed to work it into the already-mandated Type 2 port.
Yes, it does. Backpressure like the above reduces your vehicle's efficiency. The more the backpressure, the more work that has to be done by the engine to clear the exhaust (which is experienced as greater engine braking). That's the very reason why vehicle mileages dropped when the government started mandating cats.
Actually, I do like C++ ;) But discussing charge rates in mph or kph is extremely common among EV owners. Because it's literally what you're getting: X miles/kilometers range per hour of charging.
It's also worth pointing out that "6-7% loss" on a 30mpg car is 2mpg. An amount that the average person wouldn't even notice.
It's funny when people put old cars on the dynamometer how much power they turn out to have lost. There's so much that can rob a car of power as it ages. Just to pick a random example: my high mileage Insight at one point was having trouble starting, and they took out one of its catalyst packs, and discovered that it was literally clogged to the brim with carbon buildup. To the point that when they took it out it made a big mess of on the floor of the workshop.
How often does the average person remove a catalytic converter on their car?
Yes, everyone except Tesla (top EV seller in the US) and Nissan (top EV seller globally).
And, of course, Honda (Fit EV).
And let's not forget Citroën (C-Zero, Berlingo)
Kia too, of course (Soul EV).
Then there's Mazda (Demio EV).
And Mitsubishi (MiEV, Outlander PHEV - the latter being the top selling PHEV in Europe)
Peugeots use it too (iOn, Partner - although they're just rebadges)
Subaru? You betcha (Stella)
Toyota? Sure (eQ, new RAV4)
But you know, apart from all of them, nobody uses CHAdeMO.
When I randomly pull up DC charging stations in continental Europe on plugshare, that's not what I find; I find mostly A) superchargers, and B) dual-plug CHAdeMO/CCS. There's the occasional pure-CHAdeMO and the occasional pure-CCS, but I'm not finding many of them in comparison to the others.
I covered both CCS and CHAdeMO in my above post. How did you not notice that?
Technically inferior.... lol. A form factor half the size of a CHAdeMO but delivering three times the current, "technically inferior"? Yeah, try again.
CHAdeMO is a pefect example of how not to design a connector. CCS combo is okay, but still a Frankenconnector, needlessly large and awkward, and with too little current support.** Tesla has by far the best connectors. Even in Europe where they were mandated to include a Type 2, they modified the Type 2 so that it can handle both low power AC and extreme power DC charging in the exact same connector. Rather than CCS which decided that you needed to add a big two pronged "growth" onto your connector to do so.
** - There are a very small number of high power CCS stations, ~150kW or so. But they do this by increasing the voltage, not the current. Which is great if you have a mythical EV with a 1000V battery pack. Even the nominal ~50kWh stations often play the voltage game; that 50kW is often assuming that you're charging at 500V, but most packs have a well lower voltage than that.
Simply not true. First off, in many places (including the US), the "majority of public chargers" are superchargers. Not that most of the DC charger icons on Plugshare will be superchargers, but simply because there's so many stalls per supercharger site.
Let's zoom out to a far view of the US and start picking random DC icons on PlugShare, shall we? Here's my results:
Dennis Dillon Nissan: EV Plug (J1772), CHAdeMO DCFC
St. George Supercharger: 8 Tesla Superchargers
Woodstock Supercharger: 8 Tesla Superchargers
Alexandria Supercharger: 8 Tesla Superchargers
AAA: CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
McAllen Supercharger: 8 Tesla Superchargers
St. George Supercharger: 8 Tesla Superchargers
The Shops at Sunset Place: 2 Wall Outlet (120V)s, EV Plug (J1772), CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
West Wendover Supercharger: 6 Tesla Superchargers
Hmm... to be fair, Plugshare may be biasing my random clicks because Tesla has a lot more on the interstates between cities, while all chargers inside cities get bunched together; you can see that above I ended up with 46 superchargers vs. 4 CHAdeMO and 3 CCS (the latter being in all likelyhood not on a separate charger, but rather sharing a cable with the CHAdeMOs and only able to charge one car at a time).
Let's pick a random boring city and zoom in to try to end up with a higher percentage of non-Tesla chargers... let's say, Cleveland.
Walmart: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
Walmart Supercenter: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
Walmart Supercenter: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
Walmart Supercenter: 4 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
Transformer Station Contemporary Art Space: CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
Dunkin' Donuts: 2 CHAdeMO DCFCs, 2 CCS DCFCs
CNG Metro Station: CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
Walmart Supercenter: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
Macedonia Supercharger: 6 Tesla Superchargers
Tesla Motors: 2 Tesla Model S / Model Xs, Tesla Supercharger
Walmart: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
Walmart Supercenter: 2 EV Plug (J1772)s, CHAdeMO DCFC, CCS DCFC
Notice: once again it's a bunch of shared CHAdeMO/CCS chargers.
Okay, so maybe your statement is supposed to be about Europe? Well I can assure you that at least where I am (Iceland), all of the stations are both CCS/CHAdeMO (one vehicle at a time, pick your cable). Random clicking on a map of Europe finds that this appears to be the standard.
Where are you that you're finding mainly CCS-only chargers?
The future looks likely to be a CCS variant, however. That said, Tesla is a member of CharIN, so will probably be adopting the next standard.
I'm so glad that Tesla is in CharIN, by the way. Why is it that the only company who seems to know how to engineer a proper connector is Tesla? Always sleek, easy, minimal form factors with extreme power - never giant, awkward, limited-power frankenconnectors like others seem to design.
That's simply not true. Here is a survey of data gathered from Tesla owners. Click charts. Typical first-year degradation rates are about 4%, but then it slows down significantly from there. Average year-5 degradation appears to be a total of around 6-7% versus a new pack. A gas or diesel car's efficiency (and thus range) will have generally dropped well more than that by year 5.
Wait, you can bill your refueling time? So shouldn't you want longer breaks then?
Exactly; when you run the numbers it's easy to see the profit margin on them. They buy power at industrial rates (huge bulk), which in the US average something like $0.06-0.07/kWh, and sell it back for $0.20/kWh. The demand charges can be significant at low/uneven utilization rates, but that's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about "when electric vehicles become more popular". The station is much cheaper than a gas station to build; a typical 8-stall supercharging station today costs around $250k on average, and we're nowhere near mass production now. Punch in the numbers at say 30% average utilization and you find that it's easy to show significant profitability.
Actually, it's really not. Note the above with the Model 3, for example: adding ~41% more range from batteries increases the vehicle mass by only 7%, which in turn translates to a loss of range at highway speeds of 2-3% 41% vs. 2-3%; it's not that meaningful. It'd be more like 5% for city driving, but then again, nobody cares about EV range in city driving - EVs go much further in city driving regardless, and who drives 310+ miles in-town-only per day?
I know it's not something ICE drivers are used to, but it's a very meaningful way to measure charge times: how many of miles of range you get per hour spent charging.