Rakishi, you are proceeding down a line which is irrelevant to the question I asked. My question was specifically aimed at pepty's absurd assertion that a drug costs $14K to manufacture per patient per year. I understand the absurd costs to get past the FDA hurdles, those are a different question though.
Again: a drug that costs $14K to manufacture per patient per year?...Anyone?...Anyone?
Really it costs $14K to manufacture? Without counting NRE? I have strong doubts that any drug costs that much to manufacture given how much automation is in place for drug manufacturing.
NRE = Non-Recurrent Engineering (just so I'm not accused of being obscure)
my response was to your desire of a 1m^3 workspace for $2K. Not on this planet, not in this lifetime. Thanks for the link though, it is big but clearly the quality of the printouts leave much to be desired. Here are more images for that machine, kudos to him for building it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurtcircuit/sets/72157624845973625/ but I don't think he'll ever make really nice parts with it not with the gears and motors he's using. Can't hold tolerances. If the quality of the parts he's making is good enough then probably making them out of oven baking clay would achieve the same result with much less machinery. Faster too. The machine won't get better with tweaking, it will take better construction and parts and engineering which means higher costs. Again, not to take away from his efforts, it is a fantastic machine, it's just not going to make high quality parts. Taking his time and effort as a sunk cost, what is the projected cost of making a copy building to his prints?
Stepper motors are ok if you stay well within (way below) their operating parameters. This means never driving them too hard because if you exceed their recommended load then you are going to be skipping steps and thus will be lost. At a minimum you should use servomotors which always know where they are, more so if you are using absolute encoders. All machining equipment uses sensors on the axis, this is because when it really matters, that is what you do. You can use a secondary encoder on the motor but this is more for velocity and acceleration control. If you are using steppers, you're either using massive steppers (more weight to carry) or you are driving them through a geartrain, which means loss of resolution and probably accuracy due to gear backlash. If you turn the speed down enough, you might as well carve a mold out the conventional way, by hand.
Yes, it would be a rollercoaster-like rail and carriage but these cost lots to make and if you want them really accurate then you mount them on sturdy and rigid bars (more mass). The z-axis very much needs to be placed accurately and this means you need a reliable way to move a printhead loaded with as much material as you've engineered your gantry to carry and it needs to move up and down carrying all that weight without missing a step. It stands as given that if you require a 1m^3 work volume, then you intend to push a lot of material through doesn't it? If you are just making hello kitty sized figurines then you'd use the smaller machine and yeah not have to worry about moving a lot of mass.
If there is a group that has made a 1m^3 work volume 3d printer, please point them out because I still feel that it can't be done with reasonable results ( current RepRap quality) for under $50,000.
And another thing... Not to mention that larger payloads and printers heads with more heavy requirements will be needed. Better cable management, material handling, etc. It isn't that easy to scale. A hobbyist who scaled down from the Objet1000 would certainly be compromising on print quality to even come close to covering the envelope.
So, I respectfully disagree unless you can show where the larger envelope sizes have been achieved for much lower cost. Note even that this printer does not meet the wished for 1m x 1m x1m of the parent post achieving in fact, only 40% of the wish.
You make a much better case than the paper's authors (based on slashdot info regarding the paper). It was absurd for them to pitch the cost angle when that is really not the benefit, rather it is what you put forth. The paper seems as desperate as a m$ "value" white paper, who sponsored the study?
for that you're probably looking at at least $50,000. Think about what's involved in making a machine of that size while holding tolerances tight enough for quality 3-D printing.
You did dismiss the wikipedia entry. He's not a superhero, just like Tarzan is not a superhero, as isn't Zorro. I think your anger and frustration show how much you care. I appreciate that you care so much and I am sure you are quite a valuable person. However, I don't care how many superhero tropes he fulfills, the thing is that he continues not to be a superhero. He was not meant to be a superhero and was never presented nor portrayed as one. For example "The Man With No Name" is also not a superhero, and although he lacks the mask he still conceals his identity (by having no name). He's not a superhero is he? Yet here he is killing bad guys, rescuing damsels and old folks in distress... The Three Amigos, rescued a whole town, yet, not superheros. Not sure why you're so hung up on him being a superhero. I already bought into a person not needing superpowers to be a superhero, but this does not make him a superhero. For example Hawkeye, he is an unbelievably good archer, far better than any real archer could be, thus he's a superhero. The Lone Ranger, while good with his gun was not amazing with it, was just smarter than the average idiot criminal, and he had a partner who knew how to move stealthily so could help him lay traps... So, be cool, you can't win them all and you can't win this one because you are wrong, did you ask your friends? All 10,000 of them? What is the puppetmaster defense? I am not familiar with that, just winging it on this argument. Maybe next time I'll just throw down the puppetmaster card and save a lot of typing.
Magically? Objective Facts? I thought we were talking about a made up character. The objective fact is that the Lone Ranger was never created as a superhero. The thing is, not every radio/television/comic book character is a superhero. Are you really convinced that he is? Wikipedia doesn't think he's a superhero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Ranger I've already mentioned that he wasn't on the other list of non-special-power superheroes, you didn't accept that so you might also dismiss the wikipedia entry. *sigh*
My pass at an insult was clumsy? I thought it was pretty funny, sorry if it cut too close.
Run a poll, ask both your friends, and your parent's four friends too if the Lone Ranger is a superhero. If they respond (they might have more important things to do), let me know how he fares in your circle.
alen, you should return your kids to wherever you got them from. You got defective ones. Or you're defective. If you can't handle the kids on a 30 minute drive you need a parenting class. Or give up, or maybe you already did.
I'm approaching that too and thinking about becoming a hipster. The thing is, why not? I mean, who really cares? Do I care what younger people think? No Do I care what older stodgy people or people my age think? No Am I going to die and no one will care anyway? Yes Do I care that some AC thinks it is a ridiculous way to be? No Is there a non-zero chance that some hot chick will find me interesting enough? Yes decision made.
I haven't done it but I think that people have the right to be as ridiculous as we want to be. It is our life after all and we only get one and why should we be repressed during its short span?
Superhero personality flaw != superhero Superhero = superpower, superintelligence, superstrength, and/or special ability Lone Ranger's extreme violence came only from his competent use of a gun and more than average intelligence. If we went by your definition Charles Manson would have been a superhero.
Lone Ranger is not now nor has ever been even remotely close to a superhero. No special powers, strength, size. Just an overwhelming need to express his self-righteous indignation upon the world with extreme violence.
Slashdot Mirror
lolz
yeah, go prison labor!
I myself don't like big round bellies but, to each his own.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. It means what it means in the context it is used in.
Rakishi, you are proceeding down a line which is irrelevant to the question I asked. My question was specifically aimed at pepty's absurd assertion that a drug costs $14K to manufacture per patient per year. I understand the absurd costs to get past the FDA hurdles, those are a different question though. ...Anyone? ...Anyone?
Again:
a drug that costs $14K to manufacture per patient per year?
Really it costs $14K to manufacture? Without counting NRE? I have strong doubts that any drug costs that much to manufacture given how much automation is in place for drug manufacturing.
NRE = Non-Recurrent Engineering (just so I'm not accused of being obscure)
my response was to your desire of a 1m^3 workspace for $2K. Not on this planet, not in this lifetime.
Thanks for the link though, it is big but clearly the quality of the printouts leave much to be desired. Here are more images for that machine, kudos to him for building it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurtcircuit/sets/72157624845973625/
but I don't think he'll ever make really nice parts with it not with the gears and motors he's using. Can't hold tolerances. If the quality of the parts he's making is good enough then probably making them out of oven baking clay would achieve the same result with much less machinery. Faster too. The machine won't get better with tweaking, it will take better construction and parts and engineering which means higher costs.
Again, not to take away from his efforts, it is a fantastic machine, it's just not going to make high quality parts. Taking his time and effort as a sunk cost, what is the projected cost of making a copy building to his prints?
Stepper motors are ok if you stay well within (way below) their operating parameters. This means never driving them too hard because if you exceed their recommended load then you are going to be skipping steps and thus will be lost. At a minimum you should use servomotors which always know where they are, more so if you are using absolute encoders. All machining equipment uses sensors on the axis, this is because when it really matters, that is what you do. You can use a secondary encoder on the motor but this is more for velocity and acceleration control. If you are using steppers, you're either using massive steppers (more weight to carry) or you are driving them through a geartrain, which means loss of resolution and probably accuracy due to gear backlash.
If you turn the speed down enough, you might as well carve a mold out the conventional way, by hand.
Yes, it would be a rollercoaster-like rail and carriage but these cost lots to make and if you want them really accurate then you mount them on sturdy and rigid bars (more mass). The z-axis very much needs to be placed accurately and this means you need a reliable way to move a printhead loaded with as much material as you've engineered your gantry to carry and it needs to move up and down carrying all that weight without missing a step. It stands as given that if you require a 1m^3 work volume, then you intend to push a lot of material through doesn't it? If you are just making hello kitty sized figurines then you'd use the smaller machine and yeah not have to worry about moving a lot of mass.
If there is a group that has made a 1m^3 work volume 3d printer, please point them out because I still feel that it can't be done with reasonable results ( current RepRap quality) for under $50,000.
And another thing...
Not to mention that larger payloads and printers heads with more heavy requirements will be needed. Better cable management, material handling, etc. It isn't that easy to scale. A hobbyist who scaled down from the Objet1000 would certainly be compromising on print quality to even come close to covering the envelope.
Not just rods and rails, also longer, by 5x(?) position sensors (optical strips?) and also the required rods and rails will need to be held to tighter tolerances as deviations that are passable at shorter lengths are magnified at longer lengths and thus no longer acceptable. It takes larger machines to make larger parts with tighter absolute tolerances and so the cost of the parts increases. I argue it increases by a lot.
Here in the comments section of the article about the Objet1000 (1000 mm x 800 mm x 500 mm) it mentions the price at $675,000. The article states $40,000 but that's probably wrong.
http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1394&doc_id=256319&dfpPParams=ind_186,industry_auto,industry_gov,industry_medical,bid_26,aid_256319&dfpLayout=blog
Here is one that mentions the price as 500,000 Pounds:
http://3dprintingindustry.com/2012/11/30/objet1000-connex-platform-launched-at-euromold/
So even if the hobbyist can reduce the price to 1/10, it is still $67,500.
So, I respectfully disagree unless you can show where the larger envelope sizes have been achieved for much lower cost. Note even that this printer does not meet the wished for 1m x 1m x1m of the parent post achieving in fact, only 40% of the wish.
You make a much better case than the paper's authors (based on slashdot info regarding the paper). It was absurd for them to pitch the cost angle when that is really not the benefit, rather it is what you put forth. The paper seems as desperate as a m$ "value" white paper, who sponsored the study?
for that you're probably looking at at least $50,000. Think about what's involved in making a machine of that size while holding tolerances tight enough for quality 3-D printing.
You did dismiss the wikipedia entry. He's not a superhero, just like Tarzan is not a superhero, as isn't Zorro. I think your anger and frustration show how much you care. I appreciate that you care so much and I am sure you are quite a valuable person. However, I don't care how many superhero tropes he fulfills, the thing is that he continues not to be a superhero. He was not meant to be a superhero and was never presented nor portrayed as one. For example "The Man With No Name" is also not a superhero, and although he lacks the mask he still conceals his identity (by having no name). He's not a superhero is he? Yet here he is killing bad guys, rescuing damsels and old folks in distress... The Three Amigos, rescued a whole town, yet, not superheros. Not sure why you're so hung up on him being a superhero. I already bought into a person not needing superpowers to be a superhero, but this does not make him a superhero. For example Hawkeye, he is an unbelievably good archer, far better than any real archer could be, thus he's a superhero. The Lone Ranger, while good with his gun was not amazing with it, was just smarter than the average idiot criminal, and he had a partner who knew how to move stealthily so could help him lay traps...
So, be cool, you can't win them all and you can't win this one because you are wrong, did you ask your friends? All 10,000 of them?
What is the puppetmaster defense? I am not familiar with that, just winging it on this argument. Maybe next time I'll just throw down the puppetmaster card and save a lot of typing.
Magically? Objective Facts?
I thought we were talking about a made up character.
The objective fact is that the Lone Ranger was never created as a superhero.
The thing is, not every radio/television/comic book character is a superhero.
Are you really convinced that he is?
Wikipedia doesn't think he's a superhero:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Ranger
I've already mentioned that he wasn't on the other list of non-special-power superheroes, you didn't accept that so you might also dismiss the wikipedia entry. *sigh*
My pass at an insult was clumsy? I thought it was pretty funny, sorry if it cut too close.
"Rights" are whatever corporations can afford to bribe congress to approve.
Run a poll, ask both your friends, and your parent's four friends too if the Lone Ranger is a superhero. If they respond (they might have more important things to do), let me know how he fares in your circle.
Your Momma
alen, you should return your kids to wherever you got them from. You got defective ones.
Or you're defective. If you can't handle the kids on a 30 minute drive you need a parenting class.
Or give up, or maybe you already did.
ok, fair enough.
He's still not a superhero. Per the link you poster.
I'm approaching that too and thinking about becoming a hipster.
The thing is, why not?
I mean, who really cares?
Do I care what younger people think? No
Do I care what older stodgy people or people my age think? No
Am I going to die and no one will care anyway? Yes
Do I care that some AC thinks it is a ridiculous way to be? No
Is there a non-zero chance that some hot chick will find me interesting enough? Yes
decision made.
I haven't done it but I think that people have the right to be as ridiculous as we want to be. It is our life after all and we only get one and why should we be repressed during its short span?
you must have felt like a total douchebag
Superhero personality flaw != superhero
Superhero = superpower, superintelligence, superstrength, and/or special ability
Lone Ranger's extreme violence came only from his competent use of a gun and more than average intelligence.
If we went by your definition Charles Manson would have been a superhero.
Good counter. Um, not sure how to respond to your content-less and witless retort(?).
I'll give it a shot, here goes:
Your Momma!
I am sure massive (relative to locally made films) advertising budgets in the 3rd world didn't have anything to do with the larger ticket numbers.
Lone Ranger is not now nor has ever been even remotely close to a superhero. No special powers, strength, size. Just an overwhelming need to express his self-righteous indignation upon the world with extreme violence.