Without the electric motor, the Insight makes its peak torque of 66 pound-feet at 4,800 rpm. With the electric motor, it makes 79 pound-feet at 1,500 rpm.
I seem to be repeating myself... Adjusting the CVT design slightly, or adding another, lower gear on the manual version, will easily give you close to the max. (66'pound) torque nearly from a stop, with nominal weight increase. That, plus the ~10% reduced weight should make-up for the final ~10% drop in torque.
I thought you didn't like the little 2-seater bubble cars?
I'm merely using the bubble-car's power-train as an example, as it's the most appropriate comparison for a hypothetical spin-off non-hybrid vehicle.
Uhh..I thought that the Zapruder film, the fact that bullet took an upward, not a downward trajectory, and eyewitness testimony have already trounced on the Warren Commission's findings that Oswald was the lone gunman in Dallas that shot Kennedy.
Only to extremely ignorant, non-experts, and conspiracy theorists...
Anyone who has ever seen a high-powered riffle going through a human head, knows that the forces involved are extreme, and difficult to imagine by those who have only seen people hit by slow, weak handguns. Bodies really do explode, in whatever direction is least dense... (closest to the surface)
If anything, the Zapruder film makes the "grassy knoll" conspiracy theory laughable, because non-military weapons like handguns and most riffles don't have nearly that kind of destructive force.
and eyewitness testimony have already trounced on the Warren Commission's findings
People claim they heard more shots... Big deal. Eyewitnesses are often mistaken, and the echo characteristics of cities make such mistakes quite understandable.
Two days before the assassination, Oswald went to the FBI office in Dallas to meet with Hosty, and when he found that Hosty was not in the office at the time, Oswald left an envelope for Hosty with a letter inside. After Oswald was murdered by Jack Ruby, Hosty's supervisor ordered Hosty to destroy the letter, and he did so by tearing the letter up and flushing it down the toilet.
The FBI agent claimed it was just random threats, which they typically disposed of, in connection with Oswald's mother's immigration case, IIRC.
I received a letter from my bank a week ago, which I shredded... Did it tell me to assassinate the president? Perhaps.
Conspiracy theorists love little pointless bits and pieces like that, but those of us who are somewhat rational like a bit more than wild speculation.
You want similar performance with 25% less power? You'll have to cut 25% of the car's weight.
Fortunately, with Honda's Insight, the electric motor provides less than 1/10th the horsepower of the engine. Cutting that much weight by removing the hybrid system is easy.
We're not comparing a brick and a missile here-- the two are very close.
I think you're missing the point. I'm not mentioning the EV1 to claim it would get far better fuel efficiency... I'm simply pointing out that short, "bubble" designs (which I happen to hate, and believe most people dislike) aren't necessary for aerodynamics. See: Toyota Yaris
You could build a 75hp Prius, too.
The Prius' body is acceptable, and the aerodynamics are good, but it's a bit on the large and heavy side to run solely on a 75HP engine. Honda has the lighter, smaller hybrid, but the Insight is exactly the kind of 2-seat bubble-car I was complaining about...
you've managed to propose a car that uses both a reduced engine size AND a reduced engine power density, without offering a way to make up the difference....
But I AM proposing a way to make-up the difference... Reduced engine weight, thanks to not requiring a battery pack, electric motors, etc., etc. Not to mention reduced sale price, and maintenance costs.
But hybrids offer several non-magical advantages over conventional engines: the ability to recoup energy while braking, the ability to use only the fraction of your combined ICE/electric system you need at any given time, and the ability to do things like run on the gutless atkinson cycle while having high torque at low RPM from an electric motor.
Recouping energy from braking is the big one, and there are designs in the works to do that with hydraulic cylinders instead of electric motors and batteries.
Converting to electric from momentum is really a superfluous and inefficient step that should be avoided if at all possible. Combined with weight, it really is a hindrance, rather than a benefit (if not for regenerative braking--see above).
Torque is not a major issue. Any well-designed transmission (or proper shifting by the driver) can give even a seriously low-powered vehicle good acceleration. That's one of the main reasons I mentioned older cars with equally low-power engines. Many of them performed quite well. And perhaps more relevant, the electric motor in Honda's hybrids don't provide much power to begin with. The low-end torque is good, but nothing a small engine can't provide.
I don't drive a hybrid, but pretending they're not currently more efficient than similarly performing conventional cars seems weird.
That's the whole point. There are no similarly-performing conventional cars. They've held off on fuel efficiency in conventional cars, and went all-in with hybrids, giving them the appearance of incredible fuel efficiency, while a conventional equivalent would be quite competitive.
And any breakthrough that works for ICE engines alone works for hybrids as well.
The inverse is also true. Any breakthrough for hybrids will work BETTER for lighter, cheaper, conventional cars as well.
I thought that gasoline was the same regardless of season;
Perhaps in some countries it is. In the US, it isn't.
Summer fuels have to be less volatile and lower Reid Vapor Pressure to prevent excess pollution in higher summer temperatures. Usually that includes larger volumes of butane than normal.
I'm not an expert in the subject, so I can't get much more specific than that. Perhaps someone else here can.
Love or hate the bubble, good engineering says there's only a few ways something that's really aerodynamic AND has room for people AND fits into our existing road/parking infrastructure will look.
Stretched-teardrop shape is more aerodynamic than the bubble. See the EV1, which had the lowest aerodynamic drag ever. Make it a bit larger, and there will be room for 4 seats, a trunk, and all without sitting on-top of the engine and sacrificing safety.
It does a respectable job, but despite being smaller and lighter than a Prius it only manages a rating of 34/40 mpg
Throw a 3-cyl. Atkinson cycle in there, and we'll talk.
It's not magic... If your engine has the same horsepower as the conventional engine in a hybrid, yet your fuel efficiency is comparatively poor, it's the fault of your engine, not some inherent limitation of non-hybrids. So, you can get most of the fuel efficiency benefit of hybrids, without the complexity, cost, weight, and ongoing maintenance.
Extended warranties are an extremely good deal on things like monitors.
3rd party repair facilities can't get documentation for the no-name crap monitors Best Buy sells. So if you don't have a warranty, you have to just buy a new one. If you have a warranty, you take it in, they put it on a truck, send it back to the manufacturer, and they fix the $5 problem and return it.
Presently, there is about a $1 swing between the price of a gallon of gas in the winter and in the summer. Every year. Does the price of a barrel of oil swing by $20 from the winter to the summer?
Does refinery capacity magically disappear in the summer, and come back in the winter?
No it doesn't.
Summer gasoline is more expensive because the formulation is more expensive to produce. Whether produced by the free market or government controlled entities.
One a purely statistical level, 50% of callers are going to be more intelligent than the support personnel they are calling, while 50% of support personnel are going to be more intelligence than those calling. Both cases exist, simultaneously.
You could argue that a similar car could be built by just dropping all the hybrid bits and running the exact same car on the Atkinson cycle ICE, but nobody wants that car-- it would lose a significant fraction of its total power and the majority of its low-end torque.
Many small to mid-sized cars have had engines that were only slightly more powerful than the conventional component of current hybrids. Drive a 15 year-old Saturn, which is a 4.5-seat car, larger than an Insight, and note that it can accelerates quite well on its 75HP engine (vs. ~65HP for an Insight).
Of course, because the engine tech is also old and inefficient, and the aerodynamics of the vehicle aren't exactly up to today's standards, you'll only be getting 40MPG, instead of the 60MPG that modern hybrids boast.
I would certainly love to see a non-hybrid with modern fuel efficient tech, in a light car that can seat 4 people, and doesn't look like a bubble.
I think you're saying that the brake petal needs to be pressed for regenerative breaking to occur on a Prius.
No, I'm saying that to decelerate 5MPH at highway speeds, you merely need to have your engine provide less power. Braking, by any means, is counter-productive.
Batteries are expensive, heavy, and (potentially) environmentally damaging to produce/destroy.
Batteries are smaller, lighter, and less expensive than an equivalent internal combustion engine, with full drive train and supporting components...
Large batteries are the most recycled consumer item around, at nearly 100% for car batteries, so they aren't being dumped into landfills. Whatever small amount of environmental damage is generated by constructing and recycling the batteries is more than made-up for by the fact that gasoline is no longer being burned, and that toxic chemicals like motor oil, brake fluid, transmission fluid, etc. is no longer needed. Spilling/dumping of those has become a very serious and wide-spread problem, due to pollution of groundwater. So much so that some cities have made it illegal for to change their own motor oil.
You need to reduce weight to account for batteries so cabin sizes suffer and become more bubble-like.
Nope. That certainly was done with very early models, with < 100 mile range, but is no longer needed. Many current vehicle designs are lightweight enough.
Batteries don't yet have the energy density (relative to costs) to make full-electrics feasible
As a matter of fact they do. LiIon is an EXTREMELY dense power source. So much so that many experimental/prototypes achieve longer range between recharges than a conventional ICE car.
You should consider me a source. I have 104,000 miles on my Insight and nothing to gain by misrepresenting its behavior.
No, but there could be millions of different reasons your results could be atypical, your readings could be inaccurate, or your interpretation could be imperfect. That's why anecdotes do not make for sources. I don't doubt your sincerity, but that doesn't mean too much when the question is simple technical specs.
Got any source for any of this? All information I've found directly contradicts almost everything you've said...
I couldn't find the maximum speed for the Insight's electric motor so you may be correct that it's helping (minimally) at freeway speeds, but I did previously find 35MPH as the max for the similar Civic hybrid (The Prius' max is 43MPH).
Also, the electric motor apparently contributes less than 1/10th the horsepower of the engine, so at speed there's very little potential fuel savings to be had by using the electric motor, though significant savings in city driving.
Every bit of information says that the Insight uses the electric motor significantly, at speeds under 20MPH, which makes complete sense, though you claim that it typically does not.
The Insight is also EPA rated as getting better city mileage than highway, quite the opposite of your claim.
GM, Chrysler and Ford announce that they'll transition to "thinking about possibly getting some of those battery-rechargey cars" into production by 2015.
Yeah, that might be funny, if I didn't know that Toyota and Honda are buying much of their hybrid tech from Ford to begin with. Maybe they just priced it too low:-)
Somehow, I'd hoped that 13 years from now we'd be all electric, or otherwise not tied permanently to OPEC's apron strings.
Electric cars are practical, but nobody wants to build them, for some inexplicable reason. 200 mile range is easy to do on conventional batteries, and flywheels could easily multiply that, as well as drastically reducing recharge times.
Still, if you're ONLY goal is to get away from OPEC, you merely need to increase overall fuel efficiency by 15% (IIRC), and the US won't need to import any oil from OPEC countries to meet it's needs. Of course, I'd aim a bit higher to be sure, as the population will continue growing, and oil may get more scarce in the US and friendly oil-producing countries in the intervening years.
Your assumption that hybrids are "dead weight" at highway speeds is wrong.
No, it's exactly correct.
I get my best hybrid mileage on the highway (often at or over 70 MPG).
Mileage, yes. "Hybrid," no. Your car's hybrid system (electric motor/generator) shuts off at 35MHz, and can't possibly help your gas mileage, in any way, above that speed.
Every time you slow from 75 to 70 then speed back up, the hybrid engine will help. Need to pass that slow poke in a hurry? stomp the gas pedal and the hybrid will assist you in speeding up,
Except none of that is true...
First, people don't use their brakes to slow down 5MPH at freeway speeds, except in the the occasional emergency situation. The physics are such that wind and engine resistance will do the job of minor braking very quickly. Not to mention that it's far less likely you'll be re-ended in the process.
Second, there's currently no hybrid car that uses it's electric motor... AT ALL... above 43MPH. And that's just the upper limit for the Prius. The Civic's only goes up to 35MPH, and depending on driving conditions, it may not be used even there.
And third, even if it could be used, it really isn't needed. Going from 70MPH to 80 isn't all that energy intensive. You absolutely don't need a monster horsepower engine. All you need is a properly geared transmission.
The real win of hybrids isn't the drivetrain, it's rengenerative braking. Storing kinetic energy rather than dissipating it as heat is an obvious efficiency win,
Except, of course, companies like Ford have announced their plans for hydraulic systems to store and re-use that same energy, which will presumably be a much less expensive investment, and require very little maintenance.
This arrogant and ignorant fool has spent a great deal of time hacking on various media related projects such as xine, mplayer, and freevo,
Yeah, I do remember you providing a few patches for some basic stuff. Nothing involving video output, of course, so I still seriously doubt your qualifications.
I note that you've subtly adjusted your claim from "fglrx does not support Xv" to "fglrx does not provide Xv on some cards" or "Xv provided by fglrx is buggy."
I haven't changed a thing. As I said, I simply didn't "write out every single exception".
And you're completely distorting what I actually said, even though you're putting your own words in quotes, as if I said it... Xv isn't supported on MOST cards. Where it is, it's almost always VERY buggy, to the point that it doesn't even provide a usable picture. There are some cards that it does work on, but those are rare exceptions. Of course, you're sure I'm wrong, after all, as you said "There is no exception here."
The context of the original claim is that one is unable to compare Xv performance between the OSS ati drivers and fglrx because fglrx doesn't support Xv.
The few cards that fglrx properly provides Xv is not a good statistical sampling, so it wouldn't be a fair comparison by any stretch of the imagination. Of course it would be irrelevant anyhow, as very few people can make use of fglrx's Xv to begin with.
But hey, it's surely much easier to write me off as arrogant and ignorant
I wasn't exactly just writing you off. It's quite clear you are both. I fully explained, the matter, and yet you continue to ignore and deny the facts.
and point me to some useless gmane search about fglrx bugs
If you checked more than one or two comments, you'd see they have nothing to do with "bugs", and everything to do with long-standing limitations of fglrx.
This sounds like it's going to be more of an investment than PV solar panels, and still not generate significant electricity.
Maybe it's not as much of an investment if you already have a well with significant ground water, but then you're likely spending a lot of energy just pumping it to the surface, from 30'/10m down to generate a small amount of electricity off of the temperature differential. If it's a shallow well, the temperature difference between the air and groundwater won't be as significant, so that's probably not an easy way to cheat either.
I imagine you're making the well or reservoir less valuable if you also want to use a ground-source heat-pump in the area, and save significantly on electricity/gas/oil. I'd certainly prefer an effective heatpump to (modest) electrical generation... Heating and cooling uses far more energy than anything else in my home. And a ground heatpump doesn't need massive solar panels in my yard in the summer months.
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I seem to be repeating myself... Adjusting the CVT design slightly, or adding another, lower gear on the manual version, will easily give you close to the max. (66'pound) torque nearly from a stop, with nominal weight increase. That, plus the ~10% reduced weight should make-up for the final ~10% drop in torque.
I'm merely using the bubble-car's power-train as an example, as it's the most appropriate comparison for a hypothetical spin-off non-hybrid vehicle.
Only to extremely ignorant, non-experts, and conspiracy theorists...
Anyone who has ever seen a high-powered riffle going through a human head, knows that the forces involved are extreme, and difficult to imagine by those who have only seen people hit by slow, weak handguns. Bodies really do explode, in whatever direction is least dense... (closest to the surface)
If anything, the Zapruder film makes the "grassy knoll" conspiracy theory laughable, because non-military weapons like handguns and most riffles don't have nearly that kind of destructive force.
People claim they heard more shots... Big deal. Eyewitnesses are often mistaken, and the echo characteristics of cities make such mistakes quite understandable.
The FBI agent claimed it was just random threats, which they typically disposed of, in connection with Oswald's mother's immigration case, IIRC.
I received a letter from my bank a week ago, which I shredded... Did it tell me to assassinate the president? Perhaps.
Conspiracy theorists love little pointless bits and pieces like that, but those of us who are somewhat rational like a bit more than wild speculation.
Fortunately, with Honda's Insight, the electric motor provides less than 1/10th the horsepower of the engine. Cutting that much weight by removing the hybrid system is easy.
I think you're missing the point. I'm not mentioning the EV1 to claim it would get far better fuel efficiency... I'm simply pointing out that short, "bubble" designs (which I happen to hate, and believe most people dislike) aren't necessary for aerodynamics. See: Toyota Yaris
The Prius' body is acceptable, and the aerodynamics are good, but it's a bit on the large and heavy side to run solely on a 75HP engine. Honda has the lighter, smaller hybrid, but the Insight is exactly the kind of 2-seat bubble-car I was complaining about...
But I AM proposing a way to make-up the difference... Reduced engine weight, thanks to not requiring a battery pack, electric motors, etc., etc. Not to mention reduced sale price, and maintenance costs.
Recouping energy from braking is the big one, and there are designs in the works to do that with hydraulic cylinders instead of electric motors and batteries.
Converting to electric from momentum is really a superfluous and inefficient step that should be avoided if at all possible. Combined with weight, it really is a hindrance, rather than a benefit (if not for regenerative braking--see above).
Torque is not a major issue. Any well-designed transmission (or proper shifting by the driver) can give even a seriously low-powered vehicle good acceleration. That's one of the main reasons I mentioned older cars with equally low-power engines. Many of them performed quite well. And perhaps more relevant, the electric motor in Honda's hybrids don't provide much power to begin with. The low-end torque is good, but nothing a small engine can't provide.
That's the whole point. There are no similarly-performing conventional cars. They've held off on fuel efficiency in conventional cars, and went all-in with hybrids, giving them the appearance of incredible fuel efficiency, while a conventional equivalent would be quite competitive.
The inverse is also true. Any breakthrough for hybrids will work BETTER for lighter, cheaper, conventional cars as well.
"Hybrid" is far, FAR more hype than reality.
I get it. However, you're still wrong.
Perhaps in some countries it is. In the US, it isn't.
Summer fuels have to be less volatile and lower Reid Vapor Pressure to prevent excess pollution in higher summer temperatures. Usually that includes larger volumes of butane than normal.
I'm not an expert in the subject, so I can't get much more specific than that. Perhaps someone else here can.
Stretched-teardrop shape is more aerodynamic than the bubble. See the EV1, which had the lowest aerodynamic drag ever. Make it a bit larger, and there will be room for 4 seats, a trunk, and all without sitting on-top of the engine and sacrificing safety.
Throw a 3-cyl. Atkinson cycle in there, and we'll talk.
It's not magic... If your engine has the same horsepower as the conventional engine in a hybrid, yet your fuel efficiency is comparatively poor, it's the fault of your engine, not some inherent limitation of non-hybrids. So, you can get most of the fuel efficiency benefit of hybrids, without the complexity, cost, weight, and ongoing maintenance.
Extended warranties are an extremely good deal on things like monitors.
3rd party repair facilities can't get documentation for the no-name crap monitors Best Buy sells. So if you don't have a warranty, you have to just buy a new one. If you have a warranty, you take it in, they put it on a truck, send it back to the manufacturer, and they fix the $5 problem and return it.
Does refinery capacity magically disappear in the summer, and come back in the winter?
No it doesn't.
Summer gasoline is more expensive because the formulation is more expensive to produce. Whether produced by the free market or government controlled entities.
False dichotomy.
One a purely statistical level, 50% of callers are going to be more intelligent than the support personnel they are calling, while 50% of support personnel are going to be more intelligence than those calling. Both cases exist, simultaneously.
Many small to mid-sized cars have had engines that were only slightly more powerful than the conventional component of current hybrids. Drive a 15 year-old Saturn, which is a 4.5-seat car, larger than an Insight, and note that it can accelerates quite well on its 75HP engine (vs. ~65HP for an Insight).
Of course, because the engine tech is also old and inefficient, and the aerodynamics of the vehicle aren't exactly up to today's standards, you'll only be getting 40MPG, instead of the 60MPG that modern hybrids boast.
I would certainly love to see a non-hybrid with modern fuel efficient tech, in a light car that can seat 4 people, and doesn't look like a bubble.
No, I'm saying that to decelerate 5MPH at highway speeds, you merely need to have your engine provide less power. Braking, by any means, is counter-productive.
Batteries are smaller, lighter, and less expensive than an equivalent internal combustion engine, with full drive train and supporting components...
Large batteries are the most recycled consumer item around, at nearly 100% for car batteries, so they aren't being dumped into landfills. Whatever small amount of environmental damage is generated by constructing and recycling the batteries is more than made-up for by the fact that gasoline is no longer being burned, and that toxic chemicals like motor oil, brake fluid, transmission fluid, etc. is no longer needed. Spilling/dumping of those has become a very serious and wide-spread problem, due to pollution of groundwater. So much so that some cities have made it illegal for to change their own motor oil.
Nope. That certainly was done with very early models, with < 100 mile range, but is no longer needed. Many current vehicle designs are lightweight enough.
As a matter of fact they do. LiIon is an EXTREMELY dense power source. So much so that many experimental/prototypes achieve longer range between recharges than a conventional ICE car.
No, but there could be millions of different reasons your results could be atypical, your readings could be inaccurate, or your interpretation could be imperfect. That's why anecdotes do not make for sources. I don't doubt your sincerity, but that doesn't mean too much when the question is simple technical specs.
Got any source for any of this? All information I've found directly contradicts almost everything you've said...
I couldn't find the maximum speed for the Insight's electric motor so you may be correct that it's helping (minimally) at freeway speeds, but I did previously find 35MPH as the max for the similar Civic hybrid (The Prius' max is 43MPH).
Also, the electric motor apparently contributes less than 1/10th the horsepower of the engine, so at speed there's very little potential fuel savings to be had by using the electric motor, though significant savings in city driving.
Every bit of information says that the Insight uses the electric motor significantly, at speeds under 20MPH, which makes complete sense, though you claim that it typically does not.
The Insight is also EPA rated as getting better city mileage than highway, quite the opposite of your claim.
Yeah, that might be funny, if I didn't know that Toyota and Honda are buying much of their hybrid tech from Ford to begin with. Maybe they just priced it too low
Electric cars are practical, but nobody wants to build them, for some inexplicable reason. 200 mile range is easy to do on conventional batteries, and flywheels could easily multiply that, as well as drastically reducing recharge times.
Still, if you're ONLY goal is to get away from OPEC, you merely need to increase overall fuel efficiency by 15% (IIRC), and the US won't need to import any oil from OPEC countries to meet it's needs. Of course, I'd aim a bit higher to be sure, as the population will continue growing, and oil may get more scarce in the US and friendly oil-producing countries in the intervening years.
No, it's exactly correct.
Mileage, yes. "Hybrid," no. Your car's hybrid system (electric motor/generator) shuts off at 35MHz, and can't possibly help your gas mileage, in any way, above that speed.
Except none of that is true...
First, people don't use their brakes to slow down 5MPH at freeway speeds, except in the the occasional emergency situation. The physics are such that wind and engine resistance will do the job of minor braking very quickly. Not to mention that it's far less likely you'll be re-ended in the process.
Second, there's currently no hybrid car that uses it's electric motor... AT ALL... above 43MPH. And that's just the upper limit for the Prius. The Civic's only goes up to 35MPH, and depending on driving conditions, it may not be used even there.
And third, even if it could be used, it really isn't needed. Going from 70MPH to 80 isn't all that energy intensive. You absolutely don't need a monster horsepower engine. All you need is a properly geared transmission.
Except, of course, companies like Ford have announced their plans for hydraulic systems to store and re-use that same energy, which will presumably be a much less expensive investment, and require very little maintenance.
Yeah, I do remember you providing a few patches for some basic stuff. Nothing involving video output, of course, so I still seriously doubt your qualifications.
I haven't changed a thing. As I said, I simply didn't "write out every single exception".
And you're completely distorting what I actually said, even though you're putting your own words in quotes, as if I said it... Xv isn't supported on MOST cards. Where it is, it's almost always VERY buggy, to the point that it doesn't even provide a usable picture. There are some cards that it does work on, but those are rare exceptions. Of course, you're sure I'm wrong, after all, as you said "There is no exception here."
The few cards that fglrx properly provides Xv is not a good statistical sampling, so it wouldn't be a fair comparison by any stretch of the imagination. Of course it would be irrelevant anyhow, as very few people can make use of fglrx's Xv to begin with.
I wasn't exactly just writing you off. It's quite clear you are both. I fully explained, the matter, and yet you continue to ignore and deny the facts.
If you checked more than one or two comments, you'd see they have nothing to do with "bugs", and everything to do with long-standing limitations of fglrx.
This sounds like it's going to be more of an investment than PV solar panels, and still not generate significant electricity.
Maybe it's not as much of an investment if you already have a well with significant ground water, but then you're likely spending a lot of energy just pumping it to the surface, from 30'/10m down to generate a small amount of electricity off of the temperature differential. If it's a shallow well, the temperature difference between the air and groundwater won't be as significant, so that's probably not an easy way to cheat either.
I imagine you're making the well or reservoir less valuable if you also want to use a ground-source heat-pump in the area, and save significantly on electricity/gas/oil. I'd certainly prefer an effective heatpump to (modest) electrical generation... Heating and cooling uses far more energy than anything else in my home. And a ground heatpump doesn't need massive solar panels in my yard in the summer months.
Quite the opposite. And may I remind you that those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
On many cards, flgrx doesn't provide Xv at all. Where it does, it's almost always broken in very serious ways.
I'm not interested in spending a lot of time citing sources to prove something to an arrogant and ignorant fool on
I'd never be able to get anything accomplished if I had to write out every single exception to anything I say in passing...