...because that stupid preview window in OE means you don't have to click on the attachment to get infected.
point of clarification... In the case of attachments, you do still need to doubleclick to activate it. The real danger of the Preview Pane is from scripts in HTML-formatted mail, which can, of course, load and run as the page is rendered.
But the biggest danger of all, whether you're running UNIX, Multics, CP/M, BeOS, DOS, TOS, OS/2, Windows, whatever, and don't let's forget it, is
Er, yes, but Pine/Elm/Mutt etc, do not run attachments automatically, don't include a programming language within the application itself, and aren't really susceptable to this sort of thing.
Outlook doesn't run attachments automatically - you have to doubleclick them
Although Outlook does contain a programming language (VBScript) in this case the vbscript that does the damage isn't hosted by Outlook but by the Windows Script Host (a gaping security hole in its own right, but not part of Outlook)
y reckon it came from the Phillipines, for some reason
That'll be from the first 3 lines:
rem barok -loveletter(vbe) rem by: spyder / ispyder@mail.com / @GRAMMERSoft Group/ Manila,Philippines
although, if he can write this stuff, he knows he could have used the MS Script Encoder and sent it as a.vbe (obfuscated). Which makes me think it's not spyder, but, if in any way connected, someone who really hates him
Actually, in this case Outlook's only automated by the script, It's hosted by the 'Windows Script Host' (wscript.exe), which drives Outlook by OLE Automation as one part of its nastiness
Those of us who use messenger are not immune to this as well
You'll receive it from Outlook users, it'll mess with a variety of filetypes and offer them on mIRC if you've got it installed, but it won't propagate, since it uses
if you have mirc installed, it will try to connect to an irc server and offer your mp3 and jpg files on the channel
i think it's a bit more insidious - by the time it gets to mIRC, it's already substituted itself for any mp2, mp3, jpg or jpeg files, so it'll be offering Artiste - Song title.mp3.vbs to anyone doltish enough to accept.
Well it's the first open-source live malware I've come across:)
first up, I don't like the guy's coding style one bit:)
So what is it and what does it do?
It's a VBScript file using the Windows Script Host runtime (wscript.exe), which is on any W98 or W2k systems, plus those with IE4 or higher (plus several other products install it).
It propagates using OLE Automation against Outlook (any version), propagating both to Lists and individual addresses (internal function spreadtoemail()
It dicks with the registry to make one of four URL's at skyinet.net ending in/WIN-BUGFIX.exe into IE's start page (IE only as it uses IE's registry entries to do this).
Replaces any file of types vbs, vbe, js, jse, css, wsh, sct, hta, jpg, jpeg, mp2, mp3 with a copy of itself.
Places copies of itself into \windows and \windows\system as win32DLL.vbs and MSkernel32.vbs and tweaks the registry so that these are loaded at startup
builds a webpage and displays it, including a request for the user to disable ActiveX security.
If you're non Win32 it's totally irrelevant. If you're Win32 but don't use Outlook it'll bugger about with some files but won't propagate. If you're Windows All The Way then it's trouble.
Not only don't i like his coding style, but he doesn't even realize you can encode vbs files for obfuscation.
I think that 90% of slashdot readers would agree that the world has moved on since the days when math and physics were relavent
Logically, the term 'relavant' sic requires a to: clause - relevant to what?
...today's economy demands is tech-savvy research...
OK so obviously it's a troll, but the points are worth refuting anyway
Could a physicist have come up with Java ? MP3 ? Napster ? KDE ?
dunno, but
Tim Berners-Lee is a physicist and we wouldn't be having this discussion if he hadn't looked into technological approaches to sharing scientific documents, and
mp3 is a compression algorithm (from Al-Kwharizmi, 14th century arabic mathematician) and so a mathematician (or several) DID come up with mp3
hardly life-changing exsamples, now are they?
CS and Marketing, these are the Physics and Math of the new economy
forget CS, think Engineering. Forget Marketing, it's an activity not a science. And then think, hmm, the biggest explosion in literature volume over the last twenty years is in the biomedical disciplines. That's not only where a lot of research is being done, but also where staggering amounts of money are being spent. And there can be no biology without chemistry, no chemistry without physics and no physics without maths.
I think...
actually, it doesn't look much as though you do....
I suggest you talk to some scientists at some point and get a clue
We demand the ability to open the hood of our cars because it gives us, the consumer, control over the product
Er, used to. Nowadays we seem to be quite happy, in most cases, to buy something where, when you lift the bonnet, all you can see is a sealed black (usually) box with a manufacturer's logo on it. And when you take the cowling off, yes there's still an IC engine under there, but so much of what it does is controlled by the closed-source, binary-only proprietary engine management software that you don't stand much of a chance.
And funnily enough, neither does any non-franchised mechanic. It's just like the old 'Special crimping tool' scam again.
Once upon a time there was some real fun to be had tweaking engines. Nowadays about all you can do is rechip and hope the new chip wasn't put together by cowboys so it'll burn out your valves after 1000 km
Almost a nice analogy, unfortunately what it demonstrates is that, yet again, 'the man' is still way ahead of us 'valued customers'
As the linked page states, this file definition comes From the Office book, found in the Microsoft Office Development section in the MSDN Online Library..
Can we have a little less of the 'undocumented formats' thread, then?
BizTalk is an industry initiative started by Microsoft and supported by a wide range of organizations, from technology vendors like SAP and CommerceOne to technology users like Boeing and BP/Amoco. BizTalk is not a standards body. Instead, we are a community of standards users, with the goal of driving the rapid, consistent adoption of XML to enable electronic commerce and application integration.
Now, I know it's MS-initiated, but it's not MS-controlled, and it is a start
Being totally honest, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency was, fairly blatantly, a rehash (sorry) of the Union-disrupted Doctor Who episode Shada (perfectly reasonable as you wrote the thing).
Not to say I didn't adore the book, seeing as, since I did, that would be (a) dishonest and (b) counterproductive, but was this more because you were keen on the material and wanted to get it out in the open, or the infamous Publisher-With-A-Baseball-Bat-Demanding-NewStuff (tm) thing again?
this may just be a result of your fiction permeating my perceptions, but anyway...
What's your reaction to the way that ever since the HHGTTG's first radio appearances, your, let's face it, pretty dystopian fiction reads more and more like a blueprint from which we're building our society? The whole DolManSaxLil Shoe Corporation was uncomfortably close to the bone at the time, but I'd swear that today, somewhere, some shoe exectuive really is thinking 'ah, join them at the heels, great idea!'. The talking lifts aren't that far from the websites that seem to say 'you want to look at Product A? Product B's very nice actually' and try to predict what you'll be buying in five minutes. And does Eddie live on in Win95 (ob-MS-flame)
and for that matter the electric Monk, which seems to have been a bit superseded... was that a DNA decision, their own business decision, or part of a takeover by the Marketing Division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.
It certainly must have, although in the commentaries to the radio scripts (and in my personal multiverse the Radio Series is the one that really counts, ymmv), poor old Slarti was a man laid low by the dreadful embarrasment of his name, which was originally Phartiphukborlz, poor sod.
TomV
Re:Its time to flame these retards into oblivion.
on
Attacking Open Source
·
· Score: 2
Morons like you thanks;) need to learn that a MAINFRAME is not a PC. Linux and Unix are not TOY OPERATING SYSTEMS, they require INTELLIGENCE from the user
..and the vast majority of GNU/Linux installations are compiled on which mainframe architecture? Or did you mean to slag off about 9 in every ten/. readers?
can you show me a multi-terabyte 24x7 rock-solid Access application running on a PC ?
..24*7*365*10 rock-solid Anything application running on a zero-redundancy microprocessor-based architecture...
snide comment about sysadmins, you reveal your own inadequacy
or my long memory
CPU cycles are a PRIVELIGE, not a RIGHT, and that privelege must be EARNED
Your point being that I go to work all week, EARN money, save that money for a year, spend that money on a computer, on software for that computer, and on the resources I need to keep my knowledge up to date, and then i STILL need to earn, er, what exactly? Or does this only apply to machines bought with my tax money rather than the bit I'm allowed to keep?
Unix centric... idiotic non-CS attitude
Let's not get into the One True System thing again, please? Or I'll be forced into another rant about the joys of Multics or how much i miss playing with a 3090, and that can get VERY boring VERY fast. By the way, don't CS courses teach you how caps lock works anymore?.
I long for a return to the days where a glass wall separated the competant from the idiots, where machine time was granted to people who NEEDED it, rather than simply wanted it.
another name for you. Ted Nelson. A little out of fashion perhaps, but clearly mightily relevant.
Feeling old and grouchy now... TomV
Re:Its time to flame these retards into oblivion.
on
Attacking Open Source
·
· Score: 1
Maybe this is where we start to reclaim Linux and Open Source for the elite nerds, and get it away from all this hype and marketing BS.
Ooh, please, mr big important godlike high priest SysAdmin, is there any chance you could run this piece of code for me on your mainframe. Some time in the next 6 months would be nice, but obviously if that doesn't fit in with your important schedules......
I thought we tried to kill all the high priests years ago. Forget P(ersonal) C(omputer)s then. Forget Vaxen, forget PDP's even. I mean notwithstanding BigBadBill's other sins, he did at least help (with ppl like Woz, Kapor, and so forth) us to get those damned elitist powertrippers off our backs. Let's not invite them back.
Recompile Kernel? we can schedule that in for you in mid to late september.
Ok the common comsumer is what has caused the state of the computer industry today. They do not educate them self enough to use the damn machine on their desk and have no wish to do so
and the inlet manifold pressure on your car engine is?
What's the maximum torque tolerable by the handle on your garden spade?
The diameter to the nearest micron of the ball in your ballpoint pen?
I know it reads kind of flamey but frankly this attitude makes me sick to my stomach. What on earth gives you any right to dictate who has the right to use computers, or how they should use them? I do not want to ever see again the days when, even on the same hardware, you couldn't swap discs (that's 8" disks) with a friend because you were using different DFS's.
If the consumer had wanted concurrent CP/M86 we'd be gutting Gary Kildall instead of Bill Gates today. If the WordPerfect corp had got WP6 right, rather than issuing a bag of sh|t3, Word wouldn't have stood a cat's chance. Don't get me started on Netscape and standards compliance...
do you actually remember what it was like, or are you just ranting at random?
{what's the opposite of a Karma Whore? Karma-kaze perhaps?} TomV
/me recalls the 'joy' of having one lot of useful stuff on a zx81, another lot on a BBC B, more on a PET, and more on an Apple ][. Communication? forget it. Print it out (onto the right printer for the 'puter in question), and then type it into the other machine. If you were lucky. Even after x86 started to take over, ever try to get WordStar to talk to 123?
Now there may have been a million better ways to get to where we are today, but no-one ever adopted any of them until it was too late. God preserve us from ever being in that situation again. It was not the Golden Age, it was hellish.
It was a spoofed post purporting to be from Dr G. in which it was strongly implied that (and as far as I'm concerned this is not a defamation in any case, since defamation means saying something BAD about somebody and i don't consider this Bad) Dr G. was not 100% heterosexual all the time.
Now I don't know if he is or he isn't, and i don't care. However i will say that his actions make it clear that he is a very thin-skinned bigot. It's his reaction to the implication made which is truly repulsive. And really, if you're going to be a bigot, you NEED to have a pretty thick skin.
And as we all know, libel is the crime of publishing untrue defamatory statements.
Demon committed libel
not quite. Libel is, as you say, the crime of publishing untrue defamatory statements.
Under UK law the defendant is innocent until proved guilty.
Corollary - the defendant cannot be said to have definitely committed the crime until a court has established guilt. in fast, to say that the defendant has definitely committed a crime before conviction is, recursively enough, libellous.
In the Demon case, it has not been established that
a crime of libel was committed at all, or that
Demon are guilty of the crime of libel in the case of Laurence Godfrey.
The part of this case that really concerns me is that ISP's now feel that they have to act as the cliched 'judge jury and executioner' as soon as libel is alleged. The Outcast incident reported here recently is a case in point. Judge and Jury (we don't have executioners anymore) are legally defined positions, and ISP's really ought to be able to refuse point blank to take on such a role
Remember the KLF Very special case - not a good basis on which to generalize. In this case, copyright was owned by Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty through therir own label, KLF Comm's. They made the decision to terminate the company. They made the decision to burn the million pounds remaining from the company. They have stated on several occasions, very clearly, that they, the copyright holders, are not concerned about the copying and distribution of anything pertaining to KLF Comm's. Check out the copyright notice at the mancentral archive for more info.
This is essentially similar to the Grateful Dead's position. It's a specific waiver by the copyright holder that makes copying OK, not their demise.
The Name KLF was indeed often decoded to Kopyright Liberation Front, but Bill & Jimmy delighted in changing it every time they were asked. So, does their use of the name Ketamine Acid Freaks in some way justify the violation of ancient copyright? Or Kings of Low Frequency?
Now I've got pretty much the whole KLF back catalogue. Anything I could get on vinyl for less than 50 pounds I have on vinyl. secondhand. But then I really love the hunt itself. A lot of other stuff I got by other means, but with the blessing of Bill & Jimmy, as it happens. Incidentally, copyright persists for 75 years after the creator's death.
What i was particularly referring to is the incidence of injuries and deaths resulting from the use of firearms. I entirely concur that the use of firearms as a threat is rising, but, (may this long continue to be the case) the weapons are very rarely discharged at all, and almost never in the direction of a person.
After all, armed robbery gets 8-12 years, attempted murder gets 'life'. And on the whole the criminals seem aware that if they injure or kill using a firearm, they WILL be hunted and charged.
Now this doesn't for a minute mean i'm not at risk of being bludgeoned, bottled, knifed or punched, but the risk of involvement in a serious firearms incident is minimal.
Slashdot Mirror
point of clarification...
In the case of attachments, you do still need to doubleclick to activate it. The real danger of the Preview Pane is from scripts in HTML-formatted mail, which can, of course, load and run as the page is rendered.
But the biggest danger of all, whether you're running UNIX, Multics, CP/M, BeOS, DOS, TOS, OS/2, Windows, whatever, and don't let's forget it, is
COMPLACENCY
and it's turbocharged cousin Smugness
TomV
Outlook doesn't run attachments automatically - you have to doubleclick them
Although Outlook does contain a programming language (VBScript) in this case the vbscript that does the damage isn't hosted by Outlook but by the Windows Script Host (a gaping security hole in its own right, but not part of Outlook)
Still not very impressive tho.
TomV
That'll be from the first 3 lines:
rem barok -loveletter(vbe) /
rem by: spyder / ispyder@mail.com / @GRAMMERSoft Group
Manila,Philippines
although, if he can write this stuff, he knows he could have used the MS Script Encoder and sent it as a .vbe (obfuscated). Which makes me think it's not spyder, but, if in any way connected, someone who really hates him
TomV
Actually, in this case Outlook's only automated by the script, It's hosted by the 'Windows Script Host' (wscript.exe), which drives Outlook by OLE Automation as one part of its nastiness
TomV
You'll receive it from Outlook users, it'll mess with a variety of filetypes and offer them on mIRC if you've got it installed, but it won't propagate, since it uses
to get at the Address book.Open source viruses, eh?
TomV
i think it's a bit more insidious - by the time it gets to mIRC, it's already substituted itself for any mp2, mp3, jpg or jpeg files, so it'll be offering Artiste - Song title.mp3.vbs to anyone doltish enough to accept.
Well it's the first open-source live malware I've come across :)
TomV
So what is it and what does it do?
It's a VBScript file using the Windows Script Host runtime (wscript.exe), which is on any W98 or W2k systems, plus those with IE4 or higher (plus several other products install it).
It propagates using OLE Automation against Outlook (any version), propagating both to Lists and individual addresses (internal function spreadtoemail()
It dicks with the registry to make one of four URL's at skyinet.net ending in /WIN-BUGFIX.exe into IE's start page (IE only as it uses IE's registry entries to do this).
Replaces any file of types vbs, vbe, js, jse, css, wsh, sct, hta, jpg, jpeg, mp2, mp3 with a copy of itself.
Places copies of itself into \windows and \windows\system as win32DLL.vbs and MSkernel32.vbs and tweaks the registry so that these are loaded at startup
builds a webpage and displays it, including a request for the user to disable ActiveX security.
If you're non Win32 it's totally irrelevant. If you're Win32 but don't use Outlook it'll bugger about with some files but won't propagate. If you're Windows All The Way then it's trouble.
Not only don't i like his coding style, but he doesn't even realize you can encode vbs files for obfuscation.
It's hit 340 lists at our firm so far.
TomV
Logically, the term 'relavant' sic requires a to: clause - relevant to what?
OK so obviously it's a troll, but the points are worth refuting anyway
Could a physicist have come up with Java ? MP3 ? Napster ? KDE ?
dunno, but
- Tim Berners-Lee is a physicist and we wouldn't be having this discussion if he hadn't looked into technological approaches to sharing scientific documents, and
- mp3 is a compression algorithm (from Al-Kwharizmi, 14th century arabic mathematician) and so a mathematician (or several) DID come up with mp3
- hardly life-changing exsamples, now are they?
CS and Marketing, these are the Physics and Math of the new economyforget CS, think Engineering. Forget Marketing, it's an activity not a science. And then think, hmm, the biggest explosion in literature volume over the last twenty years is in the biomedical disciplines. That's not only where a lot of research is being done, but also where staggering amounts of money are being spent. And there can be no biology without chemistry, no chemistry without physics and no physics without maths.
I think ...
actually, it doesn't look much as though you do....
I suggest you talk to some scientists at some point and get a clue
TomV
Er, used to. Nowadays we seem to be quite happy, in most cases, to buy something where, when you lift the bonnet, all you can see is a sealed black (usually) box with a manufacturer's logo on it. And when you take the cowling off, yes there's still an IC engine under there, but so much of what it does is controlled by the closed-source, binary-only proprietary engine management software that you don't stand much of a chance.
And funnily enough, neither does any non-franchised mechanic. It's just like the old 'Special crimping tool' scam again.
Once upon a time there was some real fun to be had tweaking engines. Nowadays about all you can do is rechip and hope the new chip wasn't put together by cowboys so it'll burn out your valves after 1000 km
Almost a nice analogy, unfortunately what it demonstrates is that, yet again, 'the man' is still way ahead of us 'valued customers'
TomV
As the linked page states, this file definition comes From the Office book, found in the Microsoft Office Development section in the MSDN Online Library. .
Can we have a little less of the 'undocumented formats' thread, then?
TomV
To quote from BizTalk,
Now, I know it's MS-initiated, but it's not MS-controlled, and it is a start
TomV
Not to say I didn't adore the book, seeing as, since I did, that would be (a) dishonest and (b) counterproductive, but was this more because you were keen on the material and wanted to get it out in the open, or the infamous Publisher-With-A-Baseball-Bat-Demanding-NewStuff (tm) thing again?
TomV
this may just be a result of your fiction permeating my perceptions, but anyway...
What's your reaction to the way that ever since the HHGTTG's first radio appearances, your, let's face it, pretty dystopian fiction reads more and more like a blueprint from which we're building our society? The whole DolManSaxLil Shoe Corporation was uncomfortably close to the bone at the time, but I'd swear that today, somewhere, some shoe exectuive really is thinking 'ah, join them at the heels, great idea!'. The talking lifts aren't that far from the websites that seem to say 'you want to look at Product A? Product B's very nice actually' and try to predict what you'll be buying in five minutes. And does Eddie live on in Win95 (ob-MS-flame)
TomV
TomV
TomV
can you show me a multi-terabyte 24x7 rock-solid Access application running on a PC ?
snide comment about sysadmins, you reveal your own inadequacy
or my long memory
CPU cycles are a PRIVELIGE, not a RIGHT, and that privelege must be EARNED
Your point being that I go to work all week, EARN money, save that money for a year, spend that money on a computer, on software for that computer, and on the resources I need to keep my knowledge up to date, and then i STILL need to earn, er, what exactly? Or does this only apply to machines bought with my tax money rather than the bit I'm allowed to keep?
Unix centric ... idiotic non-CS attitude
Let's not get into the One True System thing again, please? Or I'll be forced into another rant about the joys of Multics or how much i miss playing with a 3090, and that can get VERY boring VERY fast. By the way, don't CS courses teach you how caps lock works anymore?.
I long for a return to the days where a glass wall separated the competant from the idiots, where machine time was granted to people who NEEDED it, rather than simply wanted it.
another name for you. Ted Nelson. A little out of fashion perhaps, but clearly mightily relevant.
Feeling old and grouchy now...
TomV
Ooh, please, mr big important godlike high priest SysAdmin, is there any chance you could run this piece of code for me on your mainframe. Some time in the next 6 months would be nice, but obviously if that doesn't fit in with your important schedules......
I thought we tried to kill all the high priests years ago. Forget P(ersonal) C(omputer)s then. Forget Vaxen, forget PDP's even. I mean notwithstanding BigBadBill's other sins, he did at least help (with ppl like Woz, Kapor, and so forth) us to get those damned elitist powertrippers off our backs. Let's not invite them back.
Recompile Kernel? we can schedule that in for you in mid to late september.
TomV
What, less so than someone with a good native name like 'MacDonald' or 'Trudeau'?
TomV
and the inlet manifold pressure on your car engine is?
What's the maximum torque tolerable by the handle on your garden spade?
The diameter to the nearest micron of the ball in your ballpoint pen?
I know it reads kind of flamey but frankly this attitude makes me sick to my stomach. What on earth gives you any right to dictate who has the right to use computers, or how they should use them? I do not want to ever see again the days when, even on the same hardware, you couldn't swap discs (that's 8" disks) with a friend because you were using different DFS's.
If the consumer had wanted concurrent CP/M86 we'd be gutting Gary Kildall instead of Bill Gates today. If the WordPerfect corp had got WP6 right, rather than issuing a bag of sh|t3, Word wouldn't have stood a cat's chance. Don't get me started on Netscape and standards compliance...
do you actually remember what it was like, or are you just ranting at random?
{what's the opposite of a Karma Whore? Karma-kaze perhaps?} TomV
I'm going to suffer death by flame for this... like this?
TomV
Now there may have been a million better ways to get to where we are today, but no-one ever adopted any of them until it was too late. God preserve us from ever being in that situation again. It was not the Golden Age, it was hellish.
TomV
Now I don't know if he is or he isn't, and i don't care. However i will say that his actions make it clear that he is a very thin-skinned bigot. It's his reaction to the implication made which is truly repulsive. And really, if you're going to be a bigot, you NEED to have a pretty thick skin.
TomV
Demon committed libel
not quite. Libel is, as you say, the crime of publishing untrue defamatory statements.
Under UK law the defendant is innocent until proved guilty.
Corollary - the defendant cannot be said to have definitely committed the crime until a court has established guilt. in fast, to say that the defendant has definitely committed a crime before conviction is, recursively enough, libellous.
In the Demon case, it has not been established that
- a crime of libel was committed at all, or that
- Demon are guilty of the crime of libel in the case of Laurence Godfrey.
The part of this case that really concerns me is that ISP's now feel that they have to act as the cliched 'judge jury and executioner' as soon as libel is alleged. The Outcast incident reported here recently is a case in point. Judge and Jury (we don't have executioners anymore) are legally defined positions, and ISP's really ought to be able to refuse point blank to take on such a roleTomV
In this case, copyright was owned by Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty through therir own label, KLF Comm's. They made the decision to terminate the company. They made the decision to burn the million pounds remaining from the company. They have stated on several occasions, very clearly, that they, the copyright holders, are not concerned about the copying and distribution of anything pertaining to KLF Comm's. Check out the copyright notice at the mancentral archive for more info.
This is essentially similar to the Grateful Dead's position. It's a specific waiver by the copyright holder that makes copying OK, not their demise.
The Name KLF was indeed often decoded to Kopyright Liberation Front, but Bill & Jimmy delighted in changing it every time they were asked. So, does their use of the name Ketamine Acid Freaks in some way justify the violation of ancient copyright? Or Kings of Low Frequency?
Now I've got pretty much the whole KLF back catalogue. Anything I could get on vinyl for less than 50 pounds I have on vinyl. secondhand. But then I really love the hunt itself. A lot of other stuff I got by other means, but with the blessing of Bill & Jimmy, as it happens. Incidentally, copyright persists for 75 years after the creator's death.
OK I think a point of clarification is in order.
What i was particularly referring to is the incidence of injuries and deaths resulting from the use of firearms. I entirely concur that the use of firearms as a threat is rising, but, (may this long continue to be the case) the weapons are very rarely discharged at all, and almost never in the direction of a person.
After all, armed robbery gets 8-12 years, attempted murder gets 'life'. And on the whole the criminals seem aware that if they injure or kill using a firearm, they WILL be hunted and charged.
Now this doesn't for a minute mean i'm not at risk of being bludgeoned, bottled, knifed or punched, but the risk of involvement in a serious firearms incident is minimal.
TomV