The AC however is massively wrong in that the "Answers in Genesis"-folks base anything on the bible. They base their stuff on an eclectic reading of certain interpretations of the bible that are devoid of any serious theological thought, which HAS to include the tools of literary criticism. Biblical literalism is nuts from the atheist viewpoint and heretical from any serious theological viewpoint. You just cannot ignore the manner in which the stories of the bible are told. The first creation story, for example, has the structure of a hymn - think about the repetitive chanting of certain phrases in there ("And he saw it was good", etc.). That tells that the story is meant as a praise of the creator, not as a scientific account of creation. Hell, I am as atheistic as they come, and I can't stand this abuse of the text. Reading it as a literal account is against its clearly visible intention - and in extension, if it should really be a text inspired by the Divine, heretical at best and blasphemous at worst.
Now give me a volunteer to start Muslimworld and then sue for discrimination when he does not get government support. I'll get the popcorn and watch the fireworks...
The resulting rollercoaster with the moebius looping that led to the klein bottle section sure made everyone vomit, though. And don't get me started on the 21-dimensional part. Not going back there, No Sir!
Well, with the science theme park right next to it, you could point the "nuclear science" and the "science of high-energy chemical compounds"-sections in a certain direction and have the kids do fun experiments which most certainly would help with turning Creationworld into Smoking Craterworld...
Indeed, indeed. I am as atheist as they get, but I actually do like the bible, at least in part. Heavy storytelling and full of insights into how people used to explain their world, how they retconned their history to reinforce certain ideologies - interesting stuff. I also happen to like theological thinking, if only as an intellectual glass pearl game. What really amuses me is how much of current fundamentalistic evangelical thought is outright heretic if measured against any true scholarly theology. And that's from the viewpoint of an atheist. I'd probably die laughing in there...
This is not about conversion of us heathens, I guess. This is just a part of the evangelical fundamentalist echo chamber. They probably don't even expect probable converts to go there, they expect True Believers(TM) to go there to reinforce their beliefs.
A science theme park would rock, though, sign me up!
Go ahead then - take responsibility for the privilege you are born under and pay responsibly back to society gifting you this privilege by voting for a substantial tax increase for the upper income bracket, especially for a massive tax on capital gains.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime - Lao Tzu
You meant to say "Give a man inheritable exclusive fishing rights and he will catch the lake empty, eat comfortable for the rest of his life and watch the rest of us starving.", didn't you?
Theoretically, in the creation of data no bits are deleted, so the process is in principle, reversible. As we are talking about spam here, which is by definition non-information, we can regard every bit of spam created as one bit of information lost. Therefor, the Landauer limit applies and each created bit of spam leads to the release of kT ln 2 of heat. Assuming an ideal computer at room temperature, we end up with 2.4E-12 J of energy needed to create 100 MB of spam. Put that in Einstein's formula and we end up with 2.6 e-26 g of matter represented by 100 MB of spam, which is about the mass of 29 electrons or 1/26th of a proton.
Man, don't you see? They got poison for holding together their DNA. That's not just a trick of Satan, that's Satan's own DNA! The Enemy is growing his spawn right there in California (not that anyone would be surprised by that). The end is near! Repent! Bible-based science - it works, bitches!
From a biochemist's point of view, this is a huge substitution, as phosphate and arsenate compounds do usually not coexist well in organisms, hence the toxicity of arsenic. While "everything is made out of carbon", carbon is the rather boring compound that gives stuff its structure. High-energy-bonds, like formed by certain phosphate compounds, give stuff the energy to actually DO things. The virus defense theory is way off, btw - this bacterium evolved in a high-arsenic environment, so this is way more likely a way to cope with the chemical composition of its evolutionary niche.
From all I got from the conference, this is not a second independent case of life developing on earth. The bacterium in question is probably a proteobacterium, so it didn't even branch off very early. Just one of the most weird extremophile adaptations observed so far. There are still implications for the Drake equation, imo. The phosphorus metabolism forms such a basic, integral part of our biochemistry that showing that there are alternatives definitely opens up more environments suitable for the development of life. As usual with the Drake equation, don't ask me to quantify anything here:P
Well, as much as anything is carbon based, yes. We are carbon-hydrogen-oxygen-nitrogen-sulfur-phosphorus-based, this one is carbon-hydrogen-oxygen-nitrogen-sulfur-phosphorus/arsenic-based. That still makes for a major metabolic difference, but it is still biologically related to us. Same tree of life. Still way cool, though.
Yep, it is confirmed now in the press conference. This is just a side branch adapted to high arsenic using it as a functional replacement for phosphorus. On a side note, been working at Scripps myself for a couple of months while doing my PhD. Given the current weather around here... I want back there:D
I am watching the conference right now, and she just mentioned that they did an elementary analysis of the cells and found not enough phosphorus per cell to have a working biochemistry. So this strongly points to it being more than just impurities, but to a real functional substitution of As for P. Their growth medium was apparently phosphorus-free and the cultures still grew on for quite a while, which again points to a functional substitution.
Yeah, definitely. Highly unlikely that we are talking independent abiogenesis events here. Still a far out evolutionary path here. If you go for a sugar-arsenate backbone in your DNA, you have to change a whole lot in your metabolism.
Still need ATA for the backbone synthesis, I guess. And when you have the ATA floating around, you gotta deal with it in the rest of your energy metabolism. I can't imagine having a working energy metabolism with significant amounts of ATA and ATP present at the same time competing for binding spots. That just seems like a huge disadvantage in an evolutionary sense. The proton motive force still drives ATP synthesis - or perhaps ATA synthesis in this situation. I have difficulties thinking of a working system which just would work on the basis of an osmotically driven cytochrome system without an ATP/ATA-synthase to complement it. What would be your proton importing system to drive the cytochromes?
They hinted at more than just the DNA backbone and very shortly mentioned ATA in the energy metabolism. That indeed changes a lot of things. I need that paper. Now.
Watching the conference right now - they indeed found a bacterium with sugar-arsenate backbone in its DNA. Way cool indeed. No talk about sequence data yet, I guess they'll save that for the next couple of papers. Basically they took a mud sample from Mono Lake and cultivated it in a completely P-free and As-rich medium, found bacteria and found the As in the genomic DNA. That's all I got for now, they talk too much for the press, wish I could hear a proper talk on it now...:D
Selenocystein might help indeed. De-arsenation, hm, well - possible mechanism, but kinda underwhelming. If that's all there is, we just have another run-of-the-mill extremophile here. I am hoping for something more exciting, though.
Yep, phosphorus is so common, they need a mechanism to deal with it, so much is true. Regarding the metabolism, if it is anything less than an ATA based chemistry, I will be severly underwhelmed. After all, arsenic based energy metabolisms, e.g. arsenite -> arsenate based stuff, is known already anyway.
Well, if someone comes after my biochemistry, I am damn sure that I am the good guy here. Because, after all, this is MY biochemistry, there may be many more like it, but this one is mine... Besides, arsenic is rather rare outside of very special environments, so any arsenic specialized life form is more or less confined to environments like Lake Mono. We phosphorus guys just outcompete em out here - by miles and miles.
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The AC however is massively wrong in that the "Answers in Genesis"-folks base anything on the bible. They base their stuff on an eclectic reading of certain interpretations of the bible that are devoid of any serious theological thought, which HAS to include the tools of literary criticism. Biblical literalism is nuts from the atheist viewpoint and heretical from any serious theological viewpoint. You just cannot ignore the manner in which the stories of the bible are told. The first creation story, for example, has the structure of a hymn - think about the repetitive chanting of certain phrases in there ("And he saw it was good", etc.). That tells that the story is meant as a praise of the creator, not as a scientific account of creation. Hell, I am as atheistic as they come, and I can't stand this abuse of the text. Reading it as a literal account is against its clearly visible intention - and in extension, if it should really be a text inspired by the Divine, heretical at best and blasphemous at worst.
Hopefully there aren't too many more similar niches available in this biome. (Park-ome?)
Meme-ome, I guess.
Now give me a volunteer to start Muslimworld and then sue for discrimination when he does not get government support. I'll get the popcorn and watch the fireworks...
The resulting rollercoaster with the moebius looping that led to the klein bottle section sure made everyone vomit, though. And don't get me started on the 21-dimensional part. Not going back there, No Sir!
Well, with the science theme park right next to it, you could point the "nuclear science" and the "science of high-energy chemical compounds"-sections in a certain direction and have the kids do fun experiments which most certainly would help with turning Creationworld into Smoking Craterworld...
Indeed, indeed. I am as atheist as they get, but I actually do like the bible, at least in part. Heavy storytelling and full of insights into how people used to explain their world, how they retconned their history to reinforce certain ideologies - interesting stuff. I also happen to like theological thinking, if only as an intellectual glass pearl game. What really amuses me is how much of current fundamentalistic evangelical thought is outright heretic if measured against any true scholarly theology. And that's from the viewpoint of an atheist. I'd probably die laughing in there...
A science theme park would rock, though, sign me up!
Go ahead then - take responsibility for the privilege you are born under and pay responsibly back to society gifting you this privilege by voting for a substantial tax increase for the upper income bracket, especially for a massive tax on capital gains.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime - Lao Tzu
You meant to say "Give a man inheritable exclusive fishing rights and he will catch the lake empty, eat comfortable for the rest of his life and watch the rest of us starving.", didn't you?
Theoretically, in the creation of data no bits are deleted, so the process is in principle, reversible. As we are talking about spam here, which is by definition non-information, we can regard every bit of spam created as one bit of information lost. Therefor, the Landauer limit applies and each created bit of spam leads to the release of kT ln 2 of heat. Assuming an ideal computer at room temperature, we end up with 2.4E-12 J of energy needed to create 100 MB of spam. Put that in Einstein's formula and we end up with 2.6 e-26 g of matter represented by 100 MB of spam, which is about the mass of 29 electrons or 1/26th of a proton.
Man, don't you see? They got poison for holding together their DNA. That's not just a trick of Satan, that's Satan's own DNA! The Enemy is growing his spawn right there in California (not that anyone would be surprised by that). The end is near! Repent! Bible-based science - it works, bitches!
From a biochemist's point of view, this is a huge substitution, as phosphate and arsenate compounds do usually not coexist well in organisms, hence the toxicity of arsenic. While "everything is made out of carbon", carbon is the rather boring compound that gives stuff its structure. High-energy-bonds, like formed by certain phosphate compounds, give stuff the energy to actually DO things. The virus defense theory is way off, btw - this bacterium evolved in a high-arsenic environment, so this is way more likely a way to cope with the chemical composition of its evolutionary niche.
From all I got from the conference, this is not a second independent case of life developing on earth. The bacterium in question is probably a proteobacterium, so it didn't even branch off very early. Just one of the most weird extremophile adaptations observed so far. There are still implications for the Drake equation, imo. The phosphorus metabolism forms such a basic, integral part of our biochemistry that showing that there are alternatives definitely opens up more environments suitable for the development of life. As usual with the Drake equation, don't ask me to quantify anything here :P
Well, as much as anything is carbon based, yes. We are carbon-hydrogen-oxygen-nitrogen-sulfur-phosphorus-based, this one is carbon-hydrogen-oxygen-nitrogen-sulfur-phosphorus/arsenic-based. That still makes for a major metabolic difference, but it is still biologically related to us. Same tree of life. Still way cool, though.
Hehe, good guess indeed. Then again - those guys are known for a lot of wierd metabolism :D
Yep, it is confirmed now in the press conference. This is just a side branch adapted to high arsenic using it as a functional replacement for phosphorus. On a side note, been working at Scripps myself for a couple of months while doing my PhD. Given the current weather around here... I want back there :D
I am watching the conference right now, and she just mentioned that they did an elementary analysis of the cells and found not enough phosphorus per cell to have a working biochemistry. So this strongly points to it being more than just impurities, but to a real functional substitution of As for P. Their growth medium was apparently phosphorus-free and the cultures still grew on for quite a while, which again points to a functional substitution.
Yeah, definitely. Highly unlikely that we are talking independent abiogenesis events here. Still a far out evolutionary path here. If you go for a sugar-arsenate backbone in your DNA, you have to change a whole lot in your metabolism.
Still need ATA for the backbone synthesis, I guess. And when you have the ATA floating around, you gotta deal with it in the rest of your energy metabolism. I can't imagine having a working energy metabolism with significant amounts of ATA and ATP present at the same time competing for binding spots. That just seems like a huge disadvantage in an evolutionary sense. The proton motive force still drives ATP synthesis - or perhaps ATA synthesis in this situation. I have difficulties thinking of a working system which just would work on the basis of an osmotically driven cytochrome system without an ATP/ATA-synthase to complement it. What would be your proton importing system to drive the cytochromes?
They hinted at more than just the DNA backbone and very shortly mentioned ATA in the energy metabolism. That indeed changes a lot of things. I need that paper. Now.
Too bad I do not have online Science access any more. Gotta haul arse to a library tomorrow to get my grubby hands on the new issue.
On a side note, I am quite amused having a discussion between a biochemist named "mindcontrolled" and a microbiologist called "hallucinogen" here... :D
Watching the conference right now - they indeed found a bacterium with sugar-arsenate backbone in its DNA. Way cool indeed. No talk about sequence data yet, I guess they'll save that for the next couple of papers. Basically they took a mud sample from Mono Lake and cultivated it in a completely P-free and As-rich medium, found bacteria and found the As in the genomic DNA. That's all I got for now, they talk too much for the press, wish I could hear a proper talk on it now... :D
Selenocystein might help indeed. De-arsenation, hm, well - possible mechanism, but kinda underwhelming. If that's all there is, we just have another run-of-the-mill extremophile here. I am hoping for something more exciting, though.
Yep, phosphorus is so common, they need a mechanism to deal with it, so much is true. Regarding the metabolism, if it is anything less than an ATA based chemistry, I will be severly underwhelmed. After all, arsenic based energy metabolisms, e.g. arsenite -> arsenate based stuff, is known already anyway.
Well, if someone comes after my biochemistry, I am damn sure that I am the good guy here. Because, after all, this is MY biochemistry, there may be many more like it, but this one is mine... Besides, arsenic is rather rare outside of very special environments, so any arsenic specialized life form is more or less confined to environments like Lake Mono. We phosphorus guys just outcompete em out here - by miles and miles.