There are some posts about this already - basically, this. God created universe as we know it, and created the concept of time. This means that time does not exist beyond this universe, and this means that time does not apply to God. And if there is no time, then there is no such thing as beginning or end.
Simple enough. Does everything need to be handed on a plate to us?
If you think God is not making you believe, does he have to be the one to make the first step?
I will use Bible's viewpoint. Job was a servant of God's, and he was blessed in many ways. The Devil later challenged Job's loyalty by saying that he serves God because it is easy for him and convenient. This is Bible's explanation, but since you don't believe the Bible, you can use some similar analogy.
And no, I am not trying to convert anyone to be believers of one faith or another. I'm simply presenting perhaps some of the logical explanations.
After all, the Bible account is clear that despite the fact that Israelites have seen many miracles they deviated from true worship. This indicates that even miracles or some extraordinary events in one's life might not necessarily make him or her a firm believer. If one is set in his mind not to believe the existence of God, he or she will always find another explanations for events taking place.
not 6000 years old, but older
on
Calculating God
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· Score: 1
First of all, one cannot assume that the earth is 6000 years old on Bible chronology. What one can calculate on Bible-based chronology is that the history of mankind is approximately 6000 years long.
The Bible speaks of 6 creative days, but it does not pointedly say that each day is 1000 years. In the Bible, a day can mean a period of time not necessarily 1000 years long. Earth being one billion years old, or 15 billions years old is not in disagreement with the Bible, but it certainly seems unlikely the creation period being 6,000 years.
And the reason why the climate changed after the flood is that according to the Bible's creation account, there were two bodies of water - one on earth, and one above heaven (read Genesis 1:6-8). This upper body of water had tremendous effect on the climate, being more like a greenhouse effect. After that layer was poured down in the flood, it disappeared, thus no longer protecting the earth in the same way, and thus making the climate change.
For your information, if earth was to be levelled, the waters would cover it with depth of 7 km. The water stays on earth - before the flood there was less water and more surface, whereas now it's the opposite.
If you read the creation account carefully, you will note that there was a body of water in the heavens. The creation account clearly states that waters were separated.
Genesis 1:6-8 says: "And God went on to say: "Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters." Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven."
From this it is clear that a body of water was divided into two parts, and they were separated by heaven. So, there was a body of water in some form above heaven. Just because we are not sure of how it was does not mean it did not happen. Then if you read the account of the flood, you will see that it says that "the floodgates of the heaven were opened up", thus letting the water above drain down to the earth.
Re:That's only one definition
on
Calculating God
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· Score: 1
Regarding the knowledge in the garden of Eden. If one examines carefully it was a test to see if the mankind would be obedient to Creator or not.
Telling Abraham to kill his son is another example of a test. After all, it would not be impossible for God to resurrect Isaac, Abraham's son. But what was the outcome of that incident? God himself stopped Abraham, and God said not to kill Isaac. By being faithful, Abraham proved his stand.
The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were wiped out for their wickedness. I am not in ability to state what was wicked and what was not, but apparently their wickedness got to the point of them deserving destruction. For example, why is there death penalty in certain parts of the earth? It is believed if one commits a crime wicked enough that he or she deserves to be put to death. If you read the whole account of destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, you will see that God did not wipe any any righteous men or women. You will note that God first told Abraham (who had his relative Lot with the family dwelling in those cities) about his intentions to wipe out the cities completely. Abraham pleaded with God to save the city on the account of righteous people found in the city - to discover that except for Lot and his family there was not a single righteous person. For this reason, Lot with his family was not destroyed, but was warned, so that they could escape the judgemental period.
For similar reasons, God acted righteously in all that is described in the Old Testament. We have to find out the reason behind certain things being performed, and only then we can draw the conclusion.
You are certainly right on the topic of atrocities being done in the name of Christian God. If somebody comes to me and tells me to believe in God who is described as being good, and loving, and then he or she goes off and does things contrary to the description of the qualities of God - well, that just tells me something is probably not right in the application of the principles layed out by the religion itself.
To get to the point of God performing miraculous things. For one thing, if he made things very simply, or "not-weird" then soon people would perceive God without much respect. The reason for this is clear. If we examine the Bible, which is a basis for Christendom as we know it today, we will see that the nation of Israel who experienced supernaturals powers from God themselves later deviated from true worship to him. If you read, you will see that there were magic-practicing priests in other nations, that could perform some magic of their own. To show that in reality God is mightier than any magic and any magic practicing priests, it would seem logical that he would do things that would seem highly supernatural even to the magicians themselves. This would steer people in the right direction in terms of true worship. You will also note upon examination of all supernatural occurrences found in the Bible that such events were performed in a respectful manner to true worshipers.
Although there were many occasions on which God interacted supernaturally, one should not forget the occasions on which God interacted respectfully with humans, who are much inferior to God himself.
Re:Let me contradict your point with... scripture
on
Calculating God
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· Score: 1
I'm sorry, but this cannot even be an argument. How do you suppose that God who created the universe (as described through the Bible), who created the humandkind and all the things we see - how can such a Creator not be able to do anything as simple as what you quoted? If God created the stars and the sun - don't you suppose that that uses much more energy than driving out some humans from a physical place? My point is you can't use something literally without willing to learn the true meaning of the verse you were quoting. As was already mentioned in the comment, it was not God who did not drive them out, but it was Judah who did not drive them out. God was helping Judah in inhabiting the Promised Land - for those reasons some nations who intervened with the purpose were driven out. Because in this case Judah did not drive out the inhabitants of the mountain does not mean that God was powerless. What this indicates is that it was not necessary for the inhabitants of the mountain to be driven out, and there was another reason for leaving them alone. Even if it did not serve its purpose in the short range, it could serve its purpose in the long range.
That's a very good point that you brought up. As a matter of fact, the Bible NOWHERE tells of "hell" as of an actual place where humans are tormented eternally because of some wicked deeds they did only for 70 / 50 / or whatever years. This is actually a teaching that was influenced into most religions by ancient religions in Babylon, famous for its false worship. There is much data on this (scientific research where the teaching of hellfire came from), but even if you think of it logically - would living an evil course for only a few years put you into torture FOREVER? FOREVER?
There has been a lot of criticism about inaccuracy of the Bible from various scholars, mostly starting in the 19th century. Much of the criticism used then has been dissipated by some archaelogical findings (dead sea scrolls, one example).
Most critics who try to show inaccuracy of the Bible are determined in their minds to prove it inaccurate BEFORE they start doing any kind of research.
I have read various attacks on the Bible, and I have also read defense on respective attacks - and to find that most attempts to prove the Bible inaccurate are based on extremely weak arguments, arguments that you can dissolve quite easily. And you are quite correct that it is very hard to prove the Bible inaccurate.
Re:Hundreds of lunar and solar eclipses since Bibl
on
Total Lunar Eclipse
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· Score: 1
Back to my illustration of employee and employer. So, this one employee you hired says he can run the company better than you can, and he makes the claim in front of all other employees working for your company. Now, if you fire the employee who questions your authority, what will other employees think? Will they not think that maybe he was right? Maybe, after all, you really don't know how to run the company well enough?
And the smart way is to let the employee control your company for a period of time. And you also want to give sufficient amount time, so that no one could say "well, you didn't give him enough time to prove his case."
And, it's true, God wants happiness for his people. That is why the devil will not exist forever, but only for a period of time - a period long enough for God to prove that He is the only Sovereign Ruler of the universe. (Devil's removal would parallel the employee being fired).
As for the subject of why God sacrificed his only-begotten Son for mankind's sin - it is too deep to be explained in a few lines. I would be glad to explain things via email if you wish so. (My email max.b@home.com)
Slashdot Mirror
There are some posts about this already - basically, this. God created universe as we know it, and created the concept of time. This means that time does not exist beyond this universe, and this means that time does not apply to God. And if there is no time, then there is no such thing as beginning or end.
Simple enough. Does everything need to be handed on a plate to us?
If you think God is not making you believe, does he have to be the one to make the first step?
I will use Bible's viewpoint. Job was a servant of God's, and he was blessed in many ways. The Devil later challenged Job's loyalty by saying that he serves God because it is easy for him and convenient. This is Bible's explanation, but since you don't believe the Bible, you can use some similar analogy.
And no, I am not trying to convert anyone to be believers of one faith or another. I'm simply presenting perhaps some of the logical explanations.
After all, the Bible account is clear that despite the fact that Israelites have seen many miracles they deviated from true worship. This indicates that even miracles or some extraordinary events in one's life might not necessarily make him or her a firm believer. If one is set in his mind not to believe the existence of God, he or she will always find another explanations for events taking place.
First of all, one cannot assume that the earth is 6000 years old on Bible chronology. What one can calculate on Bible-based chronology is that the history of mankind is approximately 6000 years long.
The Bible speaks of 6 creative days, but it does not pointedly say that each day is 1000 years. In the Bible, a day can mean a period of time not necessarily 1000 years long. Earth being one billion years old, or 15 billions years old is not in disagreement with the Bible, but it certainly seems unlikely the creation period being 6,000 years.
And the reason why the climate changed after the flood is that according to the Bible's creation account, there were two bodies of water - one on earth, and one above heaven (read Genesis 1:6-8). This upper body of water had tremendous effect on the climate, being more like a greenhouse effect. After that layer was poured down in the flood, it disappeared, thus no longer protecting the earth in the same way, and thus making the climate change.
where the water came from and went...
For your information, if earth was to be levelled, the waters would cover it with depth of 7 km. The water stays on earth - before the flood there was less water and more surface, whereas now it's the opposite.
If you read the creation account carefully, you will note that there was a body of water in the heavens. The creation account clearly states that waters were separated.
Genesis 1:6-8 says: "And God went on to say: "Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters." Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven."
From this it is clear that a body of water was divided into two parts, and they were separated by heaven. So, there was a body of water in some form above heaven. Just because we are not sure of how it was does not mean it did not happen. Then if you read the account of the flood, you will see that it says that "the floodgates of the heaven were opened up", thus letting the water above drain down to the earth.
Regarding the knowledge in the garden of Eden. If one examines carefully it was a test to see if the mankind would be obedient to Creator or not.
Telling Abraham to kill his son is another example of a test. After all, it would not be impossible for God to resurrect Isaac, Abraham's son. But what was the outcome of that incident? God himself stopped Abraham, and God said not to kill Isaac. By being faithful, Abraham proved his stand.
The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were wiped out for their wickedness. I am not in ability to state what was wicked and what was not, but apparently their wickedness got to the point of them deserving destruction. For example, why is there death penalty in certain parts of the earth? It is believed if one commits a crime wicked enough that he or she deserves to be put to death.
If you read the whole account of destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, you will see that God did not wipe any any righteous men or women. You will note that God first told Abraham (who had his relative Lot with the family dwelling in those cities) about his intentions to wipe out the cities completely. Abraham pleaded with God to save the city on the account of righteous people found in the city - to discover that except for Lot and his family there was not a single righteous person. For this reason, Lot with his family was not destroyed, but was warned, so that they could escape the judgemental period.
For similar reasons, God acted righteously in all that is described in the Old Testament. We have to find out the reason behind certain things being performed, and only then we can draw the conclusion.
You are certainly right on the topic of atrocities being done in the name of Christian God. If somebody comes to me and tells me to believe in God who is described as being good, and loving, and then he or she goes off and does things contrary to the description of the qualities of God - well, that just tells me something is probably not right in the application of the principles layed out by the religion itself.
To get to the point of God performing miraculous things. For one thing, if he made things very simply, or "not-weird" then soon people would perceive God without much respect. The reason for this is clear. If we examine the Bible, which is a basis for Christendom as we know it today, we will see that the nation of Israel who experienced supernaturals powers from God themselves later deviated from true worship to him. If you read, you will see that there were magic-practicing priests in other nations, that could perform some magic of their own. To show that in reality God is mightier than any magic and any magic practicing priests, it would seem logical that he would do things that would seem highly supernatural even to the magicians themselves. This would steer people in the right direction in terms of true worship. You will also note upon examination of all supernatural occurrences found in the Bible that such events were performed in a respectful manner to true worshipers.
Although there were many occasions on which God interacted supernaturally, one should not forget the occasions on which God interacted respectfully with humans, who are much inferior to God himself.
I'm sorry, but this cannot even be an argument. How do you suppose that God who created the universe (as described through the Bible), who created the humandkind and all the things we see - how can such a Creator not be able to do anything as simple as what you quoted? If God created the stars and the sun - don't you suppose that that uses much more energy than driving out some humans from a physical place? My point is you can't use something literally without willing to learn the true meaning of the verse you were quoting. As was already mentioned in the comment, it was not God who did not drive them out, but it was Judah who did not drive them out. God was helping Judah in inhabiting the Promised Land - for those reasons some nations who intervened with the purpose were driven out. Because in this case Judah did not drive out the inhabitants of the mountain does not mean that God was powerless. What this indicates is that it was not necessary for the inhabitants of the mountain to be driven out, and there was another reason for leaving them alone. Even if it did not serve its purpose in the short range, it could serve its purpose in the long range.
That's a very good point that you brought up. As a matter of fact, the Bible NOWHERE tells of "hell" as of an actual place where humans are tormented eternally because of some wicked deeds they did only for 70 / 50 / or whatever years. This is actually a teaching that was influenced into most religions by ancient religions in Babylon, famous for its false worship. There is much data on this (scientific research where the teaching of hellfire came from), but even if you think of it logically - would living an evil course for only a few years put you into torture FOREVER? FOREVER?
There has been a lot of criticism about inaccuracy of the Bible from various scholars, mostly starting in the 19th century. Much of the criticism used then has been dissipated by some archaelogical findings (dead sea scrolls, one example).
Most critics who try to show inaccuracy of the Bible are determined in their minds to prove it inaccurate BEFORE they start doing any kind of research.
I have read various attacks on the Bible, and I have also read defense on respective attacks - and to find that most attempts to prove the Bible inaccurate are based on extremely weak arguments, arguments that you can dissolve quite easily. And you are quite correct that it is very hard to prove the Bible inaccurate.
Back to my illustration of employee and employer. So, this one employee you hired says he can run the company better than you can, and he makes the claim in front of all other employees working for your company. Now, if you fire the employee who questions your authority, what will other employees think? Will they not think that maybe he was right? Maybe, after all, you really don't know how to run the company well enough?
And the smart way is to let the employee control your company for a period of time. And you also want to give sufficient amount time, so that no one could say "well, you didn't give him enough time to prove his case."
And, it's true, God wants happiness for his people. That is why the devil will not exist forever, but only for a period of time - a period long enough for God to prove that He is the only Sovereign Ruler of the universe. (Devil's removal would parallel the employee being fired).
As for the subject of why God sacrificed his only-begotten Son for mankind's sin - it is too deep to be explained in a few lines. I would be glad to explain things via email if you wish so. (My email max.b@home.com)