Yeah, if you want a hack OS that only sometimes works, doesn't support 100% of your hardware 100% of the time, has troubles with updates, etc.
That is, unless that got a LOT better since I checked last, a year or two ago. It may have, but I doubt there's any 100% Just Put The OSX Install Media In And Go laptop.
I'm told that the Develop tab in Lightroom is pretty much identical to ACR, so you can go there. You can adjust the exposure, brightness, saturation, lens compensation etc.
Hehe. No OS Holy War on MY end. People can use whatever they like. I prefer not to us Windows, and that's my choice.
ACR, or Adobe Camera Raw, is a lot more basic than Lightroom. It comes with Photoshop. Lightroom basically replaces Bridge+ACR, and from what I understand (and remember from the one time I tried to use it) is a LOT more complicated. I have a friend who's a professional photographer, and has been for many many years, and I learned a LOT about post-processing from her. She used to use Bridge+ACR (which is why I learned to use is). When she moved over to lightroom it was quite the transition. Even for a pro. ACR is a LOT simpler. Buncha sliders on the side, couple of tabs, etc.
In Bridge you can right-click and go "Open with Adobe Camera Raw". I have no idea how (or if you can) get to that from Lightroom... but if you have a copy of Photoshop "lying around", Bridge and ACR should be a part of that.
I don't have Windows anywhere except work. Everything at home is Linux except one OS X laptop. And I'm actually very happy with my MBP.
I have... doubts about running OS X in a VM and having it reliably use stuff like a Wacom tablet, and use Adobe Creative Cloud (more that I trust Adobe to somehow break). I'd be willing to try but not experiment with. This is stuff I actually use a lot.
You might be correct on warranty. I've never bought Applecare for any Apple product I've ever owned. But I think OP meant "repairable" as "I can go buy a battery online and install it myself".
I've minimised the money I've spent on them by buying the cheapest HDD/RAM options and upgrading myself, easily saving at least $500 on the actual computer. I believe that's what the OP means by "upgradable".
And with those specs, i.e., the lowest-end high-end machine (if that makes sense), a MBP came out on top. There was not even any close competition. Any other i7 laptop cost hundreds of dollars more.
It's not just Photoshp. It's the whole workflow thing with Bridge->ACR->Photoshop. I used to use GIMP+UFRaw and I thought that was great... until I tried Adobe's stuff. GIMP doesn't even come close, it is unbelievably unintuitive and later versions have made this worse. And there is no RAW processor that comes close to ACR for Linux.
I have no idea if Creative Cloud will run in Wine. I've never tried. Why would I? It would never run as well as it does natively, and getting a Wacom tablet to work correctly on a multiple monitor Linux setup is a pain in the butt under normal circumstances.
There are other applications I use that come with OS X. I don't use them that often, but I do tend to use iMovie and GarageBand on occasion. Those have alternatives in Windows... I assume... possibly even free ones of the same quality (and I use the term loosely for iMovie). But I'd have to relearn stuff, and I'm betting I couldn't export my old projects to them.
I've not used Windows at home since Win2K, and that was a dual-boot for games (then I got a PS3). I've not EVER used Windows at home as a primary OS. I had DOS, but the versions of Windows that ran on top of DOS did not support my hardware. Neither did OS/2 (but then again that thing barely supported anything). I was stuck with DOS till Linux came along and since I was a UNIX geek already I just hopped on that bootstrapping bandwagon.
So yeah, I might not/need/ OS X as such, but I much prefer it to Windows.
I've seen the rMBP. The displays are nice, of course, but I'm sad about the glossy. It is my likely upgrade-path, though.
I've never sold an old apple laptop. I run those bastards into the ground. I gave away my old 12" Powerbook G4 when it was at the point that it heated up and shut itself down randomly. My girlfriend is using my 2005 Macbook (which I got because there were no 13" MBPs at the time). And she's waiting for me to upgrade form the current 15" MBP so she can have it. I'm hoping to get another year or two out of it.
You know, I mention in the very comment you quoted that I know I can do this on Windows, but I don't want to use Windows as my daily-driver.
My desktop (which I use most of the time, including right now) is Linux. I've been using Linux since before there were distributions. Heck, back then I ran Photoshop on an SGI Indy.
My laptop is OS X. I use it in the evenings, or when I need to do CC stuff, or edit videos, or record music. I have no desire to move all that stuff to Windows, as well as all my Downtime-computing. I was never a Windows person (even before Linux!) I have on occasion installed it and played with it just so I know where it is, and you know what? Still not a fan.
Of course. And I'd never suggest to my girlfriend or my pseudo-mother-in-law that they should get a Mac. I tell them I'll take them to Microcenter and we'll find them a refurbished Toshiba for $300 (this worked really well for my PMIL, but my girlfriend prefers to wait for me to upgrade and use my old Mac).
But the OP (and I) were talking about a MBP. And we're on slashdot. We're not looking for low-end (:
Neither would I, sadly, and I don't think they really ever did want us as customers. Nonetheless, they were accommodating (I've taken a self-modified MBP to the apple store to have minor repairs done, and they had zero problems. Even when I told them I personally broke the keyboard while upgrading the HDD).
First, I don't think I'm the norm in computer usage at all. Not even close. That doesn't mean I don't have a point of view, and it doesn't mean I can't be sad that my preferred hardware platform is changed in ways I don't like. Again, I'm just expressing my opinion on the matter, I'm not trying to make you agree to it. There is absolutely no need for you to get upset or jump into profanity...
Now, as to your points:
1. I can get 16GB of RAM for US$140 (which google tells me is NZD170). And that's a full 16. If I was just upgrading form 8gb it'd be half that. I've just saved about USD$200. 2. You are correct and I was wrong about the SSD not being replacable. However, the new MBP do not use a standard SSD, and the availability and type they use are limited and more expensive than standard ones. 3. I am looking at the Apple store website right now. The non-retina MBP are only available in 13", which is not an option I can use.
Exactly. I prefer to use O X for Creative Suite than I do Windows (and since I'm legally paying for the thing, I can actually switch between them now). I'd LOVE to use Linux for it, because I use Linux for just about everything else (even my OS X usage is largely ssh into my Linux machines) but that is not an option.
I can actually do anything I do on my MBP under Windows. I'm not tied to Apple. It's just my preferred OS for this. If Adobe Creative Cloud was available for Linux, that's where I'd be.
Obviously I use my laptop for other things, too, that are NOT Adobe Creative Cloud related. Those I'd also rather do on Linux but since my choices are OS X and Windows, I prefer OS X. A lot of it is using the terminal to ssh to other machines, anyway, and that's a LOT less of a hassle on OS X than it is on Windows...
I'm not tied to Apple. It's the lesser of both evils in this case.
They never made retina Macbook Pros with non-glossy screens. They're not available anywhere. They don't exist.
Or do you thin I want to replace my ageing laptop with the exact same laptop? My laptop is nowhere near obsolete, and sill works just fine. I've had Apple laptops keep going for years and years, and I wont' replace this one until it can no longer actually run he software I need. And when I do, replacing it with the exact same model will make zero sense.
If you meant something other than those two options, please explain.
With previous generation Apple laptops, I could put all the money into the machine with the best CPU and pay extra for the hires matte screen, and just get 4gigs of RAM and the cheapest, slowest HDD they had.
Then I could pay an extra $100 to upgrade it to 16gb of RAM on my own (rather than pay Apple an extra $400 or $600 or whatever) and buy and install my own 1tb harddrive or my own SSD or whatever, again, for a fraction of what Apple charge for that. And, to be clear, that'd be my plan no matter what laptop I bought. Always has been. Every laptop manufacturer charges those insane prices for extra RAM or better HDDs.
With the RAM (and harddrive!) soldered on, you can't do that anymore.
It's not just about fixing broken stuff. It's about getting a better deal and potentially saving hundreds of dollars to get a phenomenally better computer.
Last time I upgraded my laptop (from a macbook pro to another macbook pro) I really wanted to ditch the platform. I was not happy with the direction Apple was going - they had not made things as unupgradable as they are now, but it was obviously heading this way).
So I did a whole lot of research.
And there was NO OTHER LAPTOP that came even close for the same price. NONE.
PC laptops for the same price range had i5 CPUs rather than the Mac's i7. They had much lower resolution screens, and NONE had a matte screen (which at the time was still available on Macs). I could get the cheapest RAM and HDD because I was going to upgrade them myself anyway. The high-end MBP was just a superiour laptop. It cost more than non-apple laptops, but it was actually BETTER than them, too.
I'm in the same boat as you. I have the same year MBP as you, but I have the 15" and I went out of my way to get a matte screen on it. And THOSE are no longer available, which is MY biggest problem. Those retina screens are all glossy.
I could almost live with the non-upgradable stuff.
Here's my problem, though.
I need OS X. And no other laptop will give me that.
Now technically the apps I use can be run on Windows, too, but I am NOT using Windows as my daily driver. Sure, I can get a Lenovo or Alienware (both of which have matte screen options) and dual-boot, but I don't want to do that. I often leave Photoshop open for days (or weeks!) while working on stuff, while I do other things. I do not want to have to shuffle.
So, for me, the choice is really no choice at all. Apple have kind of taken away some features we've become used to, but I am a little bit tied to the platform.
Slashdot Mirror
Yeah, if you want a hack OS that only sometimes works, doesn't support 100% of your hardware 100% of the time, has troubles with updates, etc.
That is, unless that got a LOT better since I checked last, a year or two ago. It may have, but I doubt there's any 100% Just Put The OSX Install Media In And Go laptop.
That's what I have now (: Had it since a bit before they came out. Hoping to get at least another year or two out of it.
I didn't think OS X does very well on any (current) laptop. Definitely a hack, either way.
I'm told that the Develop tab in Lightroom is pretty much identical to ACR, so you can go there. You can adjust the exposure, brightness, saturation, lens compensation etc.
Hehe. No OS Holy War on MY end. People can use whatever they like. I prefer not to us Windows, and that's my choice.
ACR, or Adobe Camera Raw, is a lot more basic than Lightroom. It comes with Photoshop. Lightroom basically replaces Bridge+ACR, and from what I understand (and remember from the one time I tried to use it) is a LOT more complicated. I have a friend who's a professional photographer, and has been for many many years, and I learned a LOT about post-processing from her. She used to use Bridge+ACR (which is why I learned to use is). When she moved over to lightroom it was quite the transition. Even for a pro. ACR is a LOT simpler. Buncha sliders on the side, couple of tabs, etc.
In Bridge you can right-click and go "Open with Adobe Camera Raw". I have no idea how (or if you can) get to that from Lightroom... but if you have a copy of Photoshop "lying around", Bridge and ACR should be a part of that.
I don't have Windows anywhere except work. Everything at home is Linux except one OS X laptop. And I'm actually very happy with my MBP.
I have... doubts about running OS X in a VM and having it reliably use stuff like a Wacom tablet, and use Adobe Creative Cloud (more that I trust Adobe to somehow break). I'd be willing to try but not experiment with. This is stuff I actually use a lot.
Hey my birthday present when I was 14 was an upgrade from 512K to 640K. I don't even WANT to know how much that cost...
I have no choice about using Windows for work. I managed to run Linux for a few years without anyone noticing, but sadly that's not possible anymore.
So I'm hearing, and noting for the future.
You might be correct on warranty. I've never bought Applecare for any Apple product I've ever owned. But I think OP meant "repairable" as "I can go buy a battery online and install it myself".
I've minimised the money I've spent on them by buying the cheapest HDD/RAM options and upgrading myself, easily saving at least $500 on the actual computer. I believe that's what the OP means by "upgradable".
And with those specs, i.e., the lowest-end high-end machine (if that makes sense), a MBP came out on top. There was not even any close competition. Any other i7 laptop cost hundreds of dollars more.
It's not just Photoshp. It's the whole workflow thing with Bridge->ACR->Photoshop. I used to use GIMP+UFRaw and I thought that was great... until I tried Adobe's stuff. GIMP doesn't even come close, it is unbelievably unintuitive and later versions have made this worse. And there is no RAW processor that comes close to ACR for Linux.
I have no idea if Creative Cloud will run in Wine. I've never tried. Why would I? It would never run as well as it does natively, and getting a Wacom tablet to work correctly on a multiple monitor Linux setup is a pain in the butt under normal circumstances.
There are other applications I use that come with OS X. I don't use them that often, but I do tend to use iMovie and GarageBand on occasion. Those have alternatives in Windows... I assume... possibly even free ones of the same quality (and I use the term loosely for iMovie). But I'd have to relearn stuff, and I'm betting I couldn't export my old projects to them.
I've not used Windows at home since Win2K, and that was a dual-boot for games (then I got a PS3). I've not EVER used Windows at home as a primary OS. I had DOS, but the versions of Windows that ran on top of DOS did not support my hardware. Neither did OS/2 (but then again that thing barely supported anything). I was stuck with DOS till Linux came along and since I was a UNIX geek already I just hopped on that bootstrapping bandwagon.
So yeah, I might not /need/ OS X as such, but I much prefer it to Windows.
That's good to know. I'm not really anywhere near needing to upgrade yet (I HOPE) but it's good info for the future!
I've seen the rMBP. The displays are nice, of course, but I'm sad about the glossy. It is my likely upgrade-path, though.
I've never sold an old apple laptop. I run those bastards into the ground. I gave away my old 12" Powerbook G4 when it was at the point that it heated up and shut itself down randomly. My girlfriend is using my 2005 Macbook (which I got because there were no 13" MBPs at the time). And she's waiting for me to upgrade form the current 15" MBP so she can have it. I'm hoping to get another year or two out of it.
I wouldn't mind retina-like resolution. And my current MBP might have that, at the time they offered a higher-res matte screen, and that's what I got.
Apple do make a non-retina 13" MBP, so I might've been wrong on that, but I don't know if they have it in matte. Plus I need a 15" or higher.
You know, I mention in the very comment you quoted that I know I can do this on Windows, but I don't want to use Windows as my daily-driver.
My desktop (which I use most of the time, including right now) is Linux. I've been using Linux since before there were distributions. Heck, back then I ran Photoshop on an SGI Indy.
My laptop is OS X. I use it in the evenings, or when I need to do CC stuff, or edit videos, or record music. I have no desire to move all that stuff to Windows, as well as all my Downtime-computing. I was never a Windows person (even before Linux!) I have on occasion installed it and played with it just so I know where it is, and you know what? Still not a fan.
Of course. And I'd never suggest to my girlfriend or my pseudo-mother-in-law that they should get a Mac. I tell them I'll take them to Microcenter and we'll find them a refurbished Toshiba for $300 (this worked really well for my PMIL, but my girlfriend prefers to wait for me to upgrade and use my old Mac).
But the OP (and I) were talking about a MBP. And we're on slashdot. We're not looking for low-end (:
Neither would I, sadly, and I don't think they really ever did want us as customers. Nonetheless, they were accommodating (I've taken a self-modified MBP to the apple store to have minor repairs done, and they had zero problems. Even when I told them I personally broke the keyboard while upgrading the HDD).
First, I don't think I'm the norm in computer usage at all. Not even close. That doesn't mean I don't have a point of view, and it doesn't mean I can't be sad that my preferred hardware platform is changed in ways I don't like. Again, I'm just expressing my opinion on the matter, I'm not trying to make you agree to it. There is absolutely no need for you to get upset or jump into profanity...
Now, as to your points:
1. I can get 16GB of RAM for US$140 (which google tells me is NZD170). And that's a full 16. If I was just upgrading form 8gb it'd be half that. I've just saved about USD$200.
2. You are correct and I was wrong about the SSD not being replacable. However, the new MBP do not use a standard SSD, and the availability and type they use are limited and more expensive than standard ones.
3. I am looking at the Apple store website right now. The non-retina MBP are only available in 13", which is not an option I can use.
Exactly. I prefer to use O X for Creative Suite than I do Windows (and since I'm legally paying for the thing, I can actually switch between them now). I'd LOVE to use Linux for it, because I use Linux for just about everything else (even my OS X usage is largely ssh into my Linux machines) but that is not an option.
I can actually do anything I do on my MBP under Windows. I'm not tied to Apple. It's just my preferred OS for this. If Adobe Creative Cloud was available for Linux, that's where I'd be.
Obviously I use my laptop for other things, too, that are NOT Adobe Creative Cloud related. Those I'd also rather do on Linux but since my choices are OS X and Windows, I prefer OS X. A lot of it is using the terminal to ssh to other machines, anyway, and that's a LOT less of a hassle on OS X than it is on Windows...
I'm not tied to Apple. It's the lesser of both evils in this case.
They never made retina Macbook Pros with non-glossy screens. They're not available anywhere. They don't exist.
Or do you thin I want to replace my ageing laptop with the exact same laptop? My laptop is nowhere near obsolete, and sill works just fine. I've had Apple laptops keep going for years and years, and I wont' replace this one until it can no longer actually run he software I need. And when I do, replacing it with the exact same model will make zero sense.
If you meant something other than those two options, please explain.
It's a different subject, but it's really one of the big problems the OP and I are running into with buying new Apple hardware.
It's not just about being repairable.
With previous generation Apple laptops, I could put all the money into the machine with the best CPU and pay extra for the hires matte screen, and just get 4gigs of RAM and the cheapest, slowest HDD they had.
Then I could pay an extra $100 to upgrade it to 16gb of RAM on my own (rather than pay Apple an extra $400 or $600 or whatever) and buy and install my own 1tb harddrive or my own SSD or whatever, again, for a fraction of what Apple charge for that. And, to be clear, that'd be my plan no matter what laptop I bought. Always has been. Every laptop manufacturer charges those insane prices for extra RAM or better HDDs.
With the RAM (and harddrive!) soldered on, you can't do that anymore.
It's not just about fixing broken stuff. It's about getting a better deal and potentially saving hundreds of dollars to get a phenomenally better computer.
I have to comment on the "price premium" thing.
Last time I upgraded my laptop (from a macbook pro to another macbook pro) I really wanted to ditch the platform. I was not happy with the direction Apple was going - they had not made things as unupgradable as they are now, but it was obviously heading this way).
So I did a whole lot of research.
And there was NO OTHER LAPTOP that came even close for the same price. NONE.
PC laptops for the same price range had i5 CPUs rather than the Mac's i7. They had much lower resolution screens, and NONE had a matte screen (which at the time was still available on Macs). I could get the cheapest RAM and HDD because I was going to upgrade them myself anyway. The high-end MBP was just a superiour laptop. It cost more than non-apple laptops, but it was actually BETTER than them, too.
I'm in the same boat as you. I have the same year MBP as you, but I have the 15" and I went out of my way to get a matte screen on it. And THOSE are no longer available, which is MY biggest problem. Those retina screens are all glossy.
I could almost live with the non-upgradable stuff.
Here's my problem, though.
I need OS X. And no other laptop will give me that.
Now technically the apps I use can be run on Windows, too, but I am NOT using Windows as my daily driver. Sure, I can get a Lenovo or Alienware (both of which have matte screen options) and dual-boot, but I don't want to do that. I often leave Photoshop open for days (or weeks!) while working on stuff, while I do other things. I do not want to have to shuffle.
So, for me, the choice is really no choice at all. Apple have kind of taken away some features we've become used to, but I am a little bit tied to the platform.