yeah yeah I know - depends how you think of "end users". I was thinking of a corporate environment, where dragging pc's across firewalls might be useful. I realise now that for home users, a GUI may be useful, but there's only a select few home users who need to do anything beyond turning the firewall on their modem on...and they have a "GUI" for that.
We certainly dont want the end users changing firewall configurations. I'd suggest you need to start back at the top of the thread again...you know, somewhere near the summary...
there was no mention of whether their security system is buggy or not. The attack was made through a hacked internet site, with the help of an internal employee, not by someone "hacking into" the system. The weak link in the chain is always people, not software.
wasn't this same attack linked to MS internet explorer 6? had to bring that up...of course I could be wrong.
Anyone know of any large company opening up the source code to their security systems?
But I think you misunderstood. I'm not trying to come up with a quantifiable definition for quality. Rather I'm saying that the link between quality and sales numbers is not as strong as many think.
Obviously you need a product that is "good enough" but from there its all marketing. You do not need to be "best in class" to achieve the highest sales.
I do see a direct correlation between marketing and sales. I do not see a direct connection between quality and sales (in most cases - there will always be exceptions).
Sure it does. Show me HTML5 and I'll show you half a million flash applications AND developers that are out there RIGHT NOW.
Its ok now to say they allow HTML5 when almost nothing exists for it, but what happens when HTML5 gains popularity to the level of flash?
When Android finally gets a version of flash (seriously Adobe, why the wait?) THEN we'll see if the battery life argument holds up. Until then, the "conspiracy theory" is just as credible.
I just sat back and thought to myself, "This thread is awesome!". Its great chatting to other like-minded programmers.
I'm a bit of a visionary sometimes and I often think, if enough programmers got together we could develop some pretty crazy and amazing stuff. Thats why Microsoft and Google do so well, both of them treat the programmers/developers very well.
and unfortunately for us programmers, our jobs can also be (seemingly) replaced by offshore workers who will accept a tiny fraction of the pay. Guess who pockets your salary then? I'm pretty sure it isn't your company's clients.
Its happening in my company right now...the decision was made by senior management, without consulting IT at all. All they can see is dollar signs. All we can see is greedy bosses and a big knife in our backs.
We'll have the last laugh though. What happens to a billion dollar technology outsourcing company when 80% of its skilled IT staff leave. At least I'll have a new job soon and a lot more pay.
"You never know when it will strike, but there comes a moment at work when you’ve made up your mind that you just aren’t doing anything productive for the rest of the day."
Just goes to show how stupid people actually are. Better doesn't always win. Better very often loses to market hype and brand recognition. Slap an Apple logo on any iGadget and people will buy it today even if they hated it 10 years ago.
that may be true in terms of raw sales, but as a user, which one would you prefer, the more hyped one or the better one?
I get tired of changing passwords because I tend to forget the new one. I'd rather just keep it. For crucial things like banking or stocks, then I'll use a separate unique PASS and then lock it in a safe for future referral.
No. See my first paragraph - you need a competant product to be successful, but by no means the best product.
Quality is determined by (unbiased) reviews and by using the product yourself. Apple does do well in this regard, but the difference compared to other products is not as great as the sales figures suggest.
Sales is mostly directly connected to marketing, whatever form that takes.
In order to be an Apple killer it must work BETTER than the Apple.
Not true. The iPod didn't work better than competing products, it looked better, and was marketed better. It was perceived as being easier although I think this is again marketing because it was easier to copy music to competing products (same as any USB drive) - but most non-technical people didn't know that.
You have to be able to show your WORKING gadget to a potential Apple customer and make them want yours more.
There are several DAP's that offer more/better features than the iPod. They're just not marketed by Apple.
What you really mean is where are those "iPod/Apple marketing killers"?
You people seem unable to tell the difference between quality/features vs sales figures/marketing. You cant compare devices using sales numbers because the sale mostly occurs before the buyer has used the device in any meaningful way. The iPod became popular due to clever marketing and design. It didn't offer anything that other audio players at the time couldn't do, but it did put audio players in the hands of people who wouldn't normally buy them. That is marketing at work.
Is Windows superior to MacOS? By your logic, the sales numbers would suggest that any version of Windows, even 3.11, is a MacOSX killer.
In the case of the iPod, I find it weird that people will pay twice the price for a device that looks cool, but does less. That is marketing at work.
There's almost nothing I do at home where my desktop pc couldn't do it (much, much) better.
When I'm out, my (android) mobile phone is fine - and I dont see the iPad as being small enough to carry around anyway.
For the other times where I might like to use a PC at home or a friend's house, for example when sitting on the couch, my netbook is great for that (more practical than the iPad too because it runs exactly the same software as my desktop). The netbook screen tilts at any angle to make reading it while typing easy.
I just dont have a need for an iPad, and I suspect I'm not the only one.
Most of the early Android devices were underpowered compared to Apple devices - which is why you would see them as unresponsive etc...
Actually, all of the things you mentioned have more to do with hardware than software - because all reviews of the Nexus One have been favourable in exactly the areas you mentioned. And surprise, it features similar hardware specs to Apple's products.
Both OS's are great - lets not get carried away thinking Apple is untouchable...(see what i did there?)
No, the point is that Apple achieve their great sales through both excellent marketing (including building hype) AND a good product, whilst most others focus too heavily on the product and not on the marketing.
Sales can be directly attributed to marketing, whilst its difficult to gauge the quality of the product purely on sales numbers. To do that you need to look at reviews, support, opinions, all of which happen AFTER the product is sold.
What you're witnessing with Apple, is ingenious marketing that no other company has achieved. Thats why its difficult to name other products - its not (much) about the product, its about marketing.
Have I mentioned the word "marketing" enough?
Have a look at how Apple goes about releasing a product. They follow a very carefully planned and meticulous process. And it works in every case - to the point where they now have a large following, many of who will buy any product they release now regardless of what it is.
Slashdot Mirror
yeah yeah I know - depends how you think of "end users". I was thinking of a corporate environment, where dragging pc's across firewalls might be useful.
I realise now that for home users, a GUI may be useful, but there's only a select few home users who need to do anything beyond turning the firewall on their modem on...and they have a "GUI" for that.
We certainly dont want the end users changing firewall configurations. I'd suggest you need to start back at the top of the thread again...you know, somewhere near the summary...
how was the resulting game of Marco-Polo? fun?
there was no mention of whether their security system is buggy or not. The attack was made through a hacked internet site, with the help of an internal employee, not by someone "hacking into" the system. The weak link in the chain is always people, not software.
wasn't this same attack linked to MS internet explorer 6? had to bring that up...of course I could be wrong.
Anyone know of any large company opening up the source code to their security systems?
dont leave us Australians off that list now...
That is true. The cool factor has taken Apple years to master, and it started when Steve Jobs rejoined the company.
Google has (had?) a certain amount of "cool" too, but lately that has been suffering due to the privacy concerns that have cropped up.
I see what you're saying.
But I think you misunderstood. I'm not trying to come up with a quantifiable definition for quality. Rather I'm saying that the link between quality and sales numbers is not as strong as many think.
Obviously you need a product that is "good enough" but from there its all marketing. You do not need to be "best in class" to achieve the highest sales.
I do see a direct correlation between marketing and sales. I do not see a direct connection between quality and sales (in most cases - there will always be exceptions).
sorry mate, not trying to start a war. If you check the user id I'm not the person who started this...
I was just trying to put in another viewpoint.
Cheers anyway :)
Sure it does. Show me HTML5 and I'll show you half a million flash applications AND developers that are out there RIGHT NOW.
Its ok now to say they allow HTML5 when almost nothing exists for it, but what happens when HTML5 gains popularity to the level of flash?
When Android finally gets a version of flash (seriously Adobe, why the wait?) THEN we'll see if the battery life argument holds up. Until then, the "conspiracy theory" is just as credible.
I just sat back and thought to myself, "This thread is awesome!". Its great chatting to other like-minded programmers.
I'm a bit of a visionary sometimes and I often think, if enough programmers got together we could develop some pretty crazy and amazing stuff. Thats why Microsoft and Google do so well, both of them treat the programmers/developers very well.
and unfortunately for us programmers, our jobs can also be (seemingly) replaced by offshore workers who will accept a tiny fraction of the pay. Guess who pockets your salary then? I'm pretty sure it isn't your company's clients.
Its happening in my company right now...the decision was made by senior management, without consulting IT at all. All they can see is dollar signs. All we can see is greedy bosses and a big knife in our backs.
We'll have the last laugh though. What happens to a billion dollar technology outsourcing company when 80% of its skilled IT staff leave. At least I'll have a new job soon and a lot more pay.
it does do what your post asked for. However if you want computers to report on what they see, well first you need them to be able to see.
this reminds me of a quote I read somewhere:
"You never know when it will strike, but there comes a moment at work when you’ve made up your mind that you just aren’t doing anything productive for the rest of the day."
so true...often hits around 8:30 am for me.
Just goes to show how stupid people actually are. Better doesn't always win. Better very often loses to market hype and brand recognition. Slap an Apple logo on any iGadget and people will buy it today even if they hated it 10 years ago.
that may be true in terms of raw sales, but as a user, which one would you prefer, the more hyped one or the better one?
you learnt english in 30 minutes? It takes most of us 1-2 years!
In your analogy you equated anything that Apple does not let you do with crimes or unpleasant things.
What makes you think that anything outside the Apple ecosystem does not work?
I own no Apple products at all, and I do not have this "things dont work" problem that you seem so sure about.
The grass is just as green on the other side of the fence, so you perhaps need to adjust your assumptions a little.
I get tired of changing passwords because I tend to forget the new one. I'd rather just keep it. For crucial things like banking or stocks, then I'll use a separate unique PASS and then lock it in a safe for future referral.
I know.
No. See my first paragraph - you need a competant product to be successful, but by no means the best product.
Quality is determined by (unbiased) reviews and by using the product yourself. Apple does do well in this regard, but the difference compared to other products is not as great as the sales figures suggest.
Sales is mostly directly connected to marketing, whatever form that takes.
More people use firefox than the number of users of any apple product capable of surfing the net...
take the blinkers off
wow suddenly people who want to do more than apple lets them are murderers and robbers...
excuse us for simply wanting some freedom from the aforementioned "walled garden".
In order to be an Apple killer it must work BETTER than the Apple.
Not true. The iPod didn't work better than competing products, it looked better, and was marketed better. It was perceived as being easier although I think this is again marketing because it was easier to copy music to competing products (same as any USB drive) - but most non-technical people didn't know that.
You have to be able to show your WORKING gadget to a potential Apple customer and make them want yours more.
Now you understand how it works...(emphasis mine)
There are several DAP's that offer more/better features than the iPod. They're just not marketed by Apple.
What you really mean is where are those "iPod/Apple marketing killers"?
You people seem unable to tell the difference between quality/features vs sales figures/marketing. You cant compare devices using sales numbers because the sale mostly occurs before the buyer has used the device in any meaningful way. The iPod became popular due to clever marketing and design. It didn't offer anything that other audio players at the time couldn't do, but it did put audio players in the hands of people who wouldn't normally buy them. That is marketing at work.
Is Windows superior to MacOS? By your logic, the sales numbers would suggest that any version of Windows, even 3.11, is a MacOSX killer.
In the case of the iPod, I find it weird that people will pay twice the price for a device that looks cool, but does less. That is marketing at work.
There's almost nothing I do at home where my desktop pc couldn't do it (much, much) better.
When I'm out, my (android) mobile phone is fine - and I dont see the iPad as being small enough to carry around anyway.
For the other times where I might like to use a PC at home or a friend's house, for example when sitting on the couch, my netbook is great for that (more practical than the iPad too because it runs exactly the same software as my desktop). The netbook screen tilts at any angle to make reading it while typing easy.
I just dont have a need for an iPad, and I suspect I'm not the only one.
Most of the early Android devices were underpowered compared to Apple devices - which is why you would see them as unresponsive etc...
Actually, all of the things you mentioned have more to do with hardware than software - because all reviews of the Nexus One have been favourable in exactly the areas you mentioned. And surprise, it features similar hardware specs to Apple's products.
Both OS's are great - lets not get carried away thinking Apple is untouchable...(see what i did there?)
No, the point is that Apple achieve their great sales through both excellent marketing (including building hype) AND a good product, whilst most others focus too heavily on the product and not on the marketing.
Sales can be directly attributed to marketing, whilst its difficult to gauge the quality of the product purely on sales numbers. To do that you need to look at reviews, support, opinions, all of which happen AFTER the product is sold.
What you're witnessing with Apple, is ingenious marketing that no other company has achieved. Thats why its difficult to name other products - its not (much) about the product, its about marketing.
Have I mentioned the word "marketing" enough?
Have a look at how Apple goes about releasing a product. They follow a very carefully planned and meticulous process. And it works in every case - to the point where they now have a large following, many of who will buy any product they release now regardless of what it is.