>>>You do realize that as a cable operating you can put the 'channel' on any frequence you want... RIGHT?
Which has nothing to do with what he was talking about. He was explaining that if his cable company is trying to pick-up a channel 10 from sixty miles away, but there's another channel 10 or 11 nearby, it can interfere with reception such that no DTV picture is decoded. Then the customers complain. And he doesn't have a solution.
Of course if it was me, I'd probably get a channel 10 YAGI which blocks everything above 10, and attenuates everything below 10, thereby solving the problem .
I guess I have poor taste then. I've downloaded several of his movies to my hard drive, including House of the Dead, Alone in the Dark, BloodRayne. And even watched one of them twice (House of the Dead). Oh well.
I'm surprised I didn't see Resident Evil on the IMDb list. I thought he made that one too?
I've lived in some isolated areas (Salt Lake City, Grand Rapids Michigan, Cedar Rapids Iowa) and in cases where there were no local affiliates the cable company provided stations from the next closest market. For example in GR, MI there were no WB affiliates, so I ended-up watching Chicago's WB via my cable service.
Of course with today's digital television, a single station can divide itself into 3, 4, or even 5 parts. I've seen some stations that have triple affiliation, such as NBC, FOX, and MyNetTV. If the second station carries ABC, CBS, and CW then you've covered the top 6 networks .
When I was living in OK City, the radio was just about worthless. I relied on the TV to monitor tornado events.
About the only way I would support dumping over-the-air TV is if the people who takeover that spectrum (Verizon, Google, et al) provided Free-To-View satellite service like the UK has. Otherwise I say leave this 1% of the spectrum in the hands of the People (i.e. free to receive), rather than hand it over to corporations to collect 1 trillion a year in overly high-priced cellphone subscriptions.
Get a Winegard FreeVision or Channel Master 4228 (both small enough to be used inside). The first will pull in a signal from 15 miles away, and the second from 40-50 miles. That should solve your problems.
COFDM isn't great. It's what is used in my HD Radio and it starts breaking-up when I drive past 15 miles. Beyond 20 miles there's no signal at all. I can't imagine using COFDM in the US where residents can be 100+ miles away from the nearest TV station.
>>>on the day of the analog cutoff, half of the digital channels I was receiving went away. I rescanned, tried different antenna amplifiers
It sounds like SOME of your digital stations moved from the UHF band to the VHF band (where the analog used to be). That means you need to get a VHF antenna. When this happened to me I already had the VHF antenna but if I had not been prepared, I would have lost channels 6, 8, 11, 12, and 13 on that day.
The Winegard Freevision and Channel Master 4228 are good VHF/UHF indoor antennas. The first has about 15 miles range, while the second has 40-50 miles.
The Japanese analog system was pretty ingenious. The image was preprocessed using digital compression to eliminate colors/motion that the human eye could not see, same as today's digital system. The only difference is that the final result was transmitted via old-fashioned analog. I can't help wondering if a similar system could have been used with NTSC, to boost it to DVD quality, while still being compatible with everyone's home TV .
>>>COFDM far superior to 8VSB for those of us who live in major metropolitan areas
That is true, however COFDM is poor over long distance. We use it for our US digital radio, and my car doesn't get any signal beyond 15 miles from the station. It starts breaking-up and after 20 miles there's nothing. - I certainly wouldn't want to use that for our television, especially since many citizens lie 100 or more miles from their central TV station. That is why 8VSB was picked instead .
Just as analog TVs originally needed cable boxes (1970s and 80s) and then evolved into "cable ready" TVs that did not need a box, soo too with digital TVs follow the same path. I figure by 2020 we'll be able to plug DTVs directly into cable lines without needing the separate box . WHAT really annoys me though is not the existence of the boxes, but that you have to RENT them for $5 each month. We the people should be able to buy the box once and done .
>>>The worst thing about the conversion is that there is no redundancy in the signal
False, false, false. The data actually is spread across the time domain, so if there's a temporary "blip" such as from lightning disrupting the signal, the tuner's CPU can pick-up pieces from 1 second later, and then reconstruct the picture via the built-in error correction.
>>>Sure, in theory ATSC can reach farther from a single source
Yes and have you ever driven across this country? There can be upto 200 miles between TV stations. That is why ATSC was chosen: To cover the long, long distances that an EU-style COFDM can not cover (it dies a quick death over distance).
We actually use COFDM for our HD Radio system, and look how well it works: barely at all. You're fine as long as you drive your car within 10-15 miles of the station, but outside that area COFDM/HDR starts skipping and beyond 20 miles there's no service.
Yes low-power (LP) and clear-air (CA) stations, which includes translators can remain analog indefinitely. Last I heard about one-third of them flashcut directly from analog-to-digital transmission on midnight, while others are still gathering the necessary funds to buy the DTV equipment.
When it's lightning, my channel 8 freezes-up for a second. When the storm is directly overhead it's like watching stroboscope. It's not as bad since they increased their power from 5 to 30 kilowatts, but it's still noticeable. I imagine if a tornado was within a mile of my house, Brian Williams' image would simply freeze and not move at all..... run for the basement!;-)
Thanks. I've never seen that Newegg product before, but the DTVpal DVR is a better deal for several reasons:
- Costs about the same ($250) - Has two tuners so you can record two different channels - Has been run through FCC testing to verify it meets minimum DTV sensitivity and error-correction requirements (most tuners fail) - And in AVS Forum testing was found to be one of the most-sensitive tuners you can buy (i.e. gets about 1.5 times more channels than the Kmart converter boxes)
>>>a lot of areas don't offer basic cable at all -- you start with the $40 package or do without
That's illegal per FCC regulation. All cable companies are required to provide a package which consists of locals only. It's typically 15-25 channels in size, however cable companies aren't not required to advertise this option, so they don't.
Another reason why science/research jobs are disappearing is for the same reason factory jobs are disappearing. Companies find it is cheaper to put these jobs in China or India.
And the solution (imho) is to require foreign companies to increase their minimum wage to at least 1/4 the US minimum wage, else we will not allow their goods to enter our country. As for the justification, we can say that paying workers a mere $30 a week is a human rights violation and the US will not be party to such things. Of course this will take years of negotiation but we still have enough influence to make it happen, especially if we get the EU to participate in exerting pressure .
>>>Many of the tech employers have lobbied congress to get exemptions to the laws regarding the hiring of foreign workers. They have cited the lack of qualified people as the reason
And people wonder why I feel no guilt about taking-away corporate rights' to free speech. They should not be allowed to pervert the People's government by drowning the People's voice with corporate-paid lobbyists.
Time for a new amendment: "The rights listed in this Constitution are reserved to individual human beings and the governments of the Member States. No other entity shall have any rights or privileges under the law." i.e. Corporations, rocks, trees, and other inanimate objects no longer have rights.
Because even if the US or EU fell under communism or dictatorship, history shows it's only temporary. The Roman Republic fell from democracy to dictatorship to Middle Ages feudalism, but eventually democracy was restored.
- Well two of the channels I get with my Antenna are foreign programming. Mostly from India and Korea, but also a smattering of Italy, Germany, France, China, and Russia. I've tried to find some of these shows via isohunt, but they either aren't there or lack English subtitles so the local channel is the only real option.
- The other two channels I sometimes watch are Spanish with telenovelas. Same deal - either the shows are not available online, or lack subtitles.
- The Family channel has reruns of Little House, Laverne & Shirley, Happy Days, et cetera which my child watches. Some of these I can rent - others I cannot. He also watches Qubo which is online, but very limited (just a few episodes). And the "this" Movie Channel is yet another channel that displays lots of rare/old programs that can't be found online.
That's about it. Other channels shows Star Trek, Dead Like Me, Deadliest Catch,..., but like you said those can be found or rented easy enough. I watch Free TV mainly for the 7 channels I just listed, plus local news and weather.
>>>Nowhere, Nebraska implies legacy - low power - VHF broadcast
Actually most VHF stations in the midwest are high-power with antennas tall enough to set world records. Why? So the signal can reach across 100-150 miles and be seen by distant rural farmers. Here's one of them. It's over 1/3 mile high: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVLY-TV_mast
>>>end up watching all of my programming with the sides cut off.
Couldn't you just adjust the zoom? I set my SDTV to "Zoom 2" which is a 14:9 ratio halfway between full zoom and letterboxed. It works great even when watching modern television shows composed for the wider image .
Many of the flaws you discuss also existed when NTSC-analog television was born. The standard was patented by Radio Corporation of America. There was no such thing as a portable. It was not open source.
But just as NTSC eventually became public domain, so too will ATSC-digital. MPEG2 will expire soon, and the patent on the 8VSB standard will end just prior to 2020. Portables were not available at first, but now they are shrinking to 5 inch size and will continue shrinking as CPUs grow faster and cheaper.
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>>>You do realize that as a cable operating you can put the 'channel' on any frequence you want ... RIGHT?
Which has nothing to do with what he was talking about. He was explaining that if his cable company is trying to pick-up a channel 10 from sixty miles away, but there's another channel 10 or 11 nearby, it can interfere with reception such that no DTV picture is decoded. Then the customers complain. And he doesn't have a solution.
Of course if it was me, I'd probably get a channel 10 YAGI which blocks everything above 10, and attenuates everything below 10, thereby solving the problem
.
If the cat walking can block your antenna, then you need to get an outside antenna.
I guess I have poor taste then. I've downloaded several of his movies to my hard drive, including House of the Dead, Alone in the Dark, BloodRayne. And even watched one of them twice (House of the Dead). Oh well.
I'm surprised I didn't see Resident Evil on the IMDb list. I thought he made that one too?
I've lived in some isolated areas (Salt Lake City, Grand Rapids Michigan, Cedar Rapids Iowa) and in cases where there were no local affiliates the cable company provided stations from the next closest market. For example in GR, MI there were no WB affiliates, so I ended-up watching Chicago's WB via my cable service.
Of course with today's digital television, a single station can divide itself into 3, 4, or even 5 parts. I've seen some stations that have triple affiliation, such as NBC, FOX, and MyNetTV. If the second station carries ABC, CBS, and CW then you've covered the top 6 networks
.
When I was living in OK City, the radio was just about worthless. I relied on the TV to monitor tornado events.
About the only way I would support dumping over-the-air TV is if the people who takeover that spectrum (Verizon, Google, et al) provided Free-To-View satellite service like the UK has. Otherwise I say leave this 1% of the spectrum in the hands of the People (i.e. free to receive), rather than hand it over to corporations to collect 1 trillion a year in overly high-priced cellphone subscriptions.
Get a Winegard FreeVision or Channel Master 4228 (both small enough to be used inside). The first will pull in a signal from 15 miles away, and the second from 40-50 miles. That should solve your problems.
COFDM isn't great. It's what is used in my HD Radio and it starts breaking-up when I drive past 15 miles. Beyond 20 miles there's no signal at all. I can't imagine using COFDM in the US where residents can be 100+ miles away from the nearest TV station.
>>>on the day of the analog cutoff, half of the digital channels I was receiving went away. I rescanned, tried different antenna amplifiers
It sounds like SOME of your digital stations moved from the UHF band to the VHF band (where the analog used to be). That means you need to get a VHF antenna. When this happened to me I already had the VHF antenna but if I had not been prepared, I would have lost channels 6, 8, 11, 12, and 13 on that day.
The Winegard Freevision and Channel Master 4228 are good VHF/UHF indoor antennas. The first has about 15 miles range, while the second has 40-50 miles.
The Japanese analog system was pretty ingenious. The image was preprocessed using digital compression to eliminate colors/motion that the human eye could not see, same as today's digital system. The only difference is that the final result was transmitted via old-fashioned analog. I can't help wondering if a similar system could have been used with NTSC, to boost it to DVD quality, while still being compatible with everyone's home TV
.
>>>COFDM far superior to 8VSB for those of us who live in major metropolitan areas
That is true, however COFDM is poor over long distance. We use it for our US digital radio, and my car doesn't get any signal beyond 15 miles from the station. It starts breaking-up and after 20 miles there's nothing. - I certainly wouldn't want to use that for our television, especially since many citizens lie 100 or more miles from their central TV station. That is why 8VSB was picked instead
.
Just as analog TVs originally needed cable boxes (1970s and 80s) and then evolved into "cable ready" TVs that did not need a box, soo too with digital TVs follow the same path. I figure by 2020 we'll be able to plug DTVs directly into cable lines without needing the separate box
.
WHAT really annoys me though is not the existence of the boxes, but that you have to RENT them for $5 each month. We the people should be able to buy the box once and done
.
>>>The worst thing about the conversion is that there is no redundancy in the signal
False, false, false. The data actually is spread across the time domain, so if there's a temporary "blip" such as from lightning disrupting the signal, the tuner's CPU can pick-up pieces from 1 second later, and then reconstruct the picture via the built-in error correction.
>>>Sure, in theory ATSC can reach farther from a single source
Yes and have you ever driven across this country? There can be upto 200 miles between TV stations. That is why ATSC was chosen: To cover the long, long distances that an EU-style COFDM can not cover (it dies a quick death over distance).
We actually use COFDM for our HD Radio system, and look how well it works: barely at all. You're fine as long as you drive your car within 10-15 miles of the station, but outside that area COFDM/HDR starts skipping and beyond 20 miles there's no service.
Yes low-power (LP) and clear-air (CA) stations, which includes translators can remain analog indefinitely. Last I heard about one-third of them flashcut directly from analog-to-digital transmission on midnight, while others are still gathering the necessary funds to buy the DTV equipment.
Here in Maryland there's no analog whatsoever.
DTVs work even better.
When it's lightning, my channel 8 freezes-up for a second. When the storm is directly overhead it's like watching stroboscope. It's not as bad since they increased their power from 5 to 30 kilowatts, but it's still noticeable. I imagine if a tornado was within a mile of my house, Brian Williams' image would simply freeze and not move at all..... run for the basement! ;-)
Thanks. I've never seen that Newegg product before, but the DTVpal DVR is a better deal for several reasons:
- Costs about the same ($250)
- Has two tuners so you can record two different channels
- Has been run through FCC testing to verify it meets minimum DTV sensitivity and error-correction requirements (most tuners fail)
- And in AVS Forum testing was found to be one of the most-sensitive tuners you can buy (i.e. gets about 1.5 times more channels than the Kmart converter boxes)
>>>a lot of areas don't offer basic cable at all -- you start with the $40 package or do without
That's illegal per FCC regulation. All cable companies are required to provide a package which consists of locals only. It's typically 15-25 channels in size, however cable companies aren't not required to advertise this option, so they don't.
Another reason why science/research jobs are disappearing is for the same reason factory jobs are disappearing. Companies find it is cheaper to put these jobs in China or India.
And the solution (imho) is to require foreign companies to increase their minimum wage to at least 1/4 the US minimum wage, else we will not allow their goods to enter our country. As for the justification, we can say that paying workers a mere $30 a week is a human rights violation and the US will not be party to such things. Of course this will take years of negotiation but we still have enough influence to make it happen, especially if we get the EU to participate in exerting pressure
.
>>>Many of the tech employers have lobbied congress to get exemptions to the laws regarding the hiring of foreign workers. They have cited the lack of qualified people as the reason
And people wonder why I feel no guilt about taking-away corporate rights' to free speech. They should not be allowed to pervert the People's government by drowning the People's voice with corporate-paid lobbyists.
Time for a new amendment: "The rights listed in this Constitution are reserved to individual human beings and the governments of the Member States. No other entity shall have any rights or privileges under the law." i.e. Corporations, rocks, trees, and other inanimate objects no longer have rights.
Because even if the US or EU fell under communism or dictatorship, history shows it's only temporary. The Roman Republic fell from democracy to dictatorship to Middle Ages feudalism, but eventually democracy was restored.
If we blow ourselves up, then there's no future.
>>>one big antenna hogging all the spectrum which is only usable for one thing.
Broadcast TV occupies less than 1% of the total spectrum currently in use. It's not "hogging" anything. If you need more room to watch the Pr0n on your iGadget, shutdown one of the other less-useful services, not the TV which people rely upon for Tornado Warnings and other emergency events. See this map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Frequency_Allocations_Chart_2003_-_The_Radio_Spectrum.jpg
- Well two of the channels I get with my Antenna are foreign programming. Mostly from India and Korea, but also a smattering of Italy, Germany, France, China, and Russia. I've tried to find some of these shows via isohunt, but they either aren't there or lack English subtitles so the local channel is the only real option.
- The other two channels I sometimes watch are Spanish with telenovelas. Same deal - either the shows are not available online, or lack subtitles.
- The Family channel has reruns of Little House, Laverne & Shirley, Happy Days, et cetera which my child watches. Some of these I can rent - others I cannot. He also watches Qubo which is online, but very limited (just a few episodes). And the "this" Movie Channel is yet another channel that displays lots of rare/old programs that can't be found online.
That's about it. Other channels shows Star Trek, Dead Like Me, Deadliest Catch, ..., but like you said those can be found or rented easy enough. I watch Free TV mainly for the 7 channels I just listed, plus local news and weather.
>>>Nowhere, Nebraska implies legacy - low power - VHF broadcast
Actually most VHF stations in the midwest are high-power with antennas tall enough to set world records. Why? So the signal can reach across 100-150 miles and be seen by distant rural farmers. Here's one of them. It's over 1/3 mile high: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVLY-TV_mast
>>>Maybe you could explain to granny how losing the ability to record two channels at once is "progress"
She can keep that ability if she tosses-aside the VCR for a DTVpal DVR, which has two digital tuners inside.
>>>end up watching all of my programming with the sides cut off.
Couldn't you just adjust the zoom? I set my SDTV to "Zoom 2" which is a 14:9 ratio halfway between full zoom and letterboxed. It works great even when watching modern television shows composed for the wider image
.
Many of the flaws you discuss also existed when NTSC-analog television was born. The standard was patented by Radio Corporation of America. There was no such thing as a portable. It was not open source.
But just as NTSC eventually became public domain, so too will ATSC-digital. MPEG2 will expire soon, and the patent on the 8VSB standard will end just prior to 2020. Portables were not available at first, but now they are shrinking to 5 inch size and will continue shrinking as CPUs grow faster and cheaper.