>>>While Europe was going through the Dark Ages, Islam was carrying the torch of civilization and culture.
Bzzzz. The most civilized culture during the 500-1400 dark ages was the Eastern Rome Empire, centered around Constantinople (Istanbul). The only role the Muslims played was to surround and crush that capitol, but fortunately for us, most of the preserved Roman knowledge had already migrated to Venice, before the muslims could hold the ancient world's equivalent to a book-burning.
Sounds like the staff is downsizing voluntarily (by quitting). Personally I'd rather wait for the layoff and the 1-2 months of severance pay, but whatever. (shrug)
Democracy leads to suppression of the minority (and the individual). Rule by a Supreme Law that protects minority rights from being trampled by the 51% majority (or overzealous leaders) is a preferable form of organization. Not perfect, but certainly better. IMHO.
- If you don't believe, consider the fate of Socrates (and others) who lived in the Athenian Democracy. Executed by majority vote, simply because they didn't like his writings.
FIX - http://www.google.com/search?q="Opera+10.5"+"Mac+OS+10.6" ----- The point is I've always been able to find what I need without knowing the the "Bigcat" OS X or Ubuntu names. I suppose they're nice for marketing purposes ("ooo there's a lion on the cover") but otherwise I don't pay attention.
BTW I think I'll nominate Busty Brassiere for the next release. It has a nice ring to it.
>>>Random Program 10.5 on Mac OS 10.6 and all the search engines give you advice on how to run Random Program 10.6 on Mac OS 10.5. That's when the names are useful.
I don't know if Mozilla would do this, but Winamp used to provide two choices: The download with bundled extras, or the stripped download with just the player. So people could choose if they want Firefox+Writer Demo bundled, or just Firefox.
YOU CAN'T RESELL E-TEXTS. When I was in college I used to buy books for about $50 used, get my work out of it, and then sell it for $40 at the end of semester. NET COST: $10.
Now this e-text idea will prevent us from doing that. It will end-up costing MORE not less.
2000 was a *professional* OS. XP was a consumer OS. Different markets (like Betacam and Betamax serve different markets), and the true successor to 2000 for professionals was Windows 2003.
>>>it's a bit ridiculous to say that Seamonkey is Firefox without the bloat, since (historically) it's the other way around and in terms of code-base there's a lot more 'bloat' in Seamonkey!
Wow. That was a long post.:-)
My theory is that Seamonkey doesn't load the extra components (email, chat, etc) since I never use them, therefore it acts like a stripped-down browser and does so more efficiently than Firefox (150,000 vs 300,000 KB according to my task manager). It's also worth noting that Puppy Linux, which is designed to be as small as possible so it can run 100% in memory, chose Seamonkey instead of Firefox. Why? Because:
"Firefox would be too big to run in RAM in a PC with 128 megabytes." - Puppy FAQ
Netscape wasn't Netscape anymore. AOL was the one who made the (dumb) decision to release Mozilla 0.6 as Netscape 6. I suspect if Netscape had still been an independent company, they'd have waited for a stable M-1.0 version, or else release the older Netscape 5 (developed but never finalized). .
>>>This older code base, plus incremental improvements over time, survives as Seamonkey.
I don't understand why people keep saying this? SeaMonkey is not derived from the old Netscape 1,2,3,4 code. That branch is dead (in the same way the Win95/98/me branch is dead). SeaMonkey was simply a renamed version of Mozilla Suite 1.8 (the new code).
>>>Bundle OpenOffice with Firefox? You know how large the OpenOffice download is compared to Firefox, right?
Not a clue. OO.o == 145 megabytes M-FF == 11 megabytes
Okay I can see how that would be a problem. Maybe Mozilla could include a demo version of "Writer" instead, and then provide a link to upgrade to the full suite, if the Firefox user likes it.
No. Nursie said, "...mozilla suite? The one [seamonkey] ditched and rewrote because of bloat?" which is not correct. SeaMonkey 1.0 == Mozilla Suite 1.8. Same software, and it has not been rewritten since then. Of course there were upgrades and bugfixes but that's it. .
>>>Firefox was created, in part, to get rid of Mozilla Suite's bloat, which included a webpage editor, email client...
True. But they still kept the same core that Mozilla Suite used. They didn't do a "major rewrite"... they just removed the email/chat components as not needed. .
>>>I don't buy that Firefox is bloated:-) Well that's cool you have that opinion, but have both Firefox and Seamonkey open right now. FF is using 300,000+ kilobytes of memory and SM just 150,000 kilobytes. Half. SM is also more responsive where FF sometimes freezes for a second or two.
AND seamonkey still has all those other features you don't like, such as email, chat, editor, etc.
Another feature seamonkey has which I love: The ability to resize this damn edit window so it's not so small.;-) Just grab the corner and drag.
>>>1. A Browser is a much smaller piece of software than an Office suit.
Is it? I always find it amusing that I can run MS Office 97(?) on my old laptop with only 8 megabytes of RAM. Good luck trying to make a browser fit into that. If they could make the Office suite small back then, surely they can do it today? .
>>>2. We already have a decent office suit called OpenOffice
Agreed. Since Oracle dumped OpenOffice.org, they are kinda floundering. I think Mozilla should adopt them and help make OO.o as popular as Firefox has become.
And now Mozilla Suite, renamed SeaMonkey, uses half as much RAM on my computer as Firefox! Which I really don't understand - they both use the same core... only the user interface is different (seaMonkey resembles Netscape 4).
>>>Firefox "is" the current browser that is "healthy". It has the most maturity of any of the other browsers.
SeaMonkey is older (initially released as Mozilla Suite in 2000, then later renamed.) Opera is older (1996?) IE is older (sourced from Commodore Amiga Mosaic(1994)).
Perhaps by "maturity" you meant Firefox has the most features, but I still disagree with that. It doesn't have Opera Turbo (for slow connections), or Opera Link (online storage of bookmarks), or Opera Unite (friend sharing).
I'm not an expert, but from what I've been reading most of the innovations did not come from Mozilla. They came from Opera.
The Opera browser was initially ad-based and behind the times, but sometime around 2002 they started innovating. Goodbye ads. Hello tabs. They were the first to invent that idea. They innovated with addons (called widgets), and built-in spellcheck. They were the first to create Opera Mini (for cellphones), Opera Turbo (compression technology for slow internet connections), plus Opera Link (stores bookmarks online), and Opera Unite (photo and file sharing with friends).
Mozilla has mostly just been copying what Opera did first. Or so I've read.
>>>Wasn't seamonkey descended from the old mozilla suite? The one they ditched and rewrote because of bloat?
You're a bit confused. Netscape ditched COMMUNICATOR because it had become bloated (and slow). Mozilla Browser was the from-scratch code that was their solution. It eventually became the lean, efficient core for Netscape 6-9, Firefox, and SeaMonkey.
Netscape is retired. Firefox continues. SeaMonkey is similar to netscape 4 in appearance, but has all the features of firefox, minus the bloat.
Democracy leads to suppression of the minority (and the individual). Rule by a Supreme Law that protects minority rights from being trampled by the 51% majority (or overzealous leaders) is a preferable form of organization. Not perfect, but certainly better than a tyranny by the majority. IMHO.
- If you don't believe, consider the fate of Socrates (and others) who lived in the Athenian Democracy. Executed by majority vote, simply because they didn't like his writings.
- Or japanese-Americans during World War 2..... locked up for ~5 years simply because that's what the majority wanted. Too bad President Roosevelt (D) was unwilling to obey the law/constitution, because it was illegal to do that to the Japanese. It could have been prevented.
- That's what your "direct democracy" would create... a society where you could execute someone in your state, or an unliked race, by a simple vote.
If Mozilla is bored, they can try making less bloated Firefox.
The SeaMonkey Beta I'm trying has the same functionality as Firefox (HTML5, addons, Gecko rendering), but only uses half as much RAM on my computer. Clearly Firefox is bloated and could use some optimization. If Mozilla needs a mission, let them return to the browser's original purpose when it started in 1999.
Or maybe they could volunteer to help the now-orphaned OpenOffice.org group by saying, "Come over here. We'll help you organize, and you can use our familiar name. We'll even bundle it with Firefox and Seamonkey ZIP files, so you get wider distribution to billions of users."
Slashdot Mirror
>>>While Europe was going through the Dark Ages, Islam was carrying the torch of civilization and culture.
Bzzzz. The most civilized culture during the 500-1400 dark ages was the Eastern Rome Empire, centered around Constantinople (Istanbul). The only role the Muslims played was to surround and crush that capitol, but fortunately for us, most of the preserved Roman knowledge had already migrated to Venice, before the muslims could hold the ancient world's equivalent to a book-burning.
Sounds like the staff is downsizing voluntarily (by quitting). Personally I'd rather wait for the layoff and the 1-2 months of severance pay, but whatever. (shrug)
>>>You're using 8.4 (from April, 2008) and 10.4 (April, 2010)
Not quite. It's actually 8.04, 8.10, 10.04, and 10.10.
>>>full polling of how individuals would decide
Democracy leads to suppression of the minority (and the individual). Rule by a Supreme Law that protects minority rights from being trampled by the 51% majority (or overzealous leaders) is a preferable form of organization. Not perfect, but certainly better. IMHO.
- If you don't believe, consider the fate of Socrates (and others) who lived in the Athenian Democracy. Executed by majority vote, simply because they didn't like his writings.
FIX - http://www.google.com/search?q="Opera+10.5"+"Mac+OS+10.6" ----- The point is I've always been able to find what I need without knowing the the "Bigcat" OS X or Ubuntu names. I suppose they're nice for marketing purposes ("ooo there's a lion on the cover") but otherwise I don't pay attention.
BTW I think I'll nominate Busty Brassiere for the next release. It has a nice ring to it.
>>>Random Program 10.5 on Mac OS 10.6 and all the search engines give you advice on how to run Random Program 10.6 on Mac OS 10.5. That's when the names are useful.
Okay. Let's try Opera 10.5 on OS 10.6: http://www.google.com/search?q="Opera+10.5"+"Mac+OS+10.6"
Yeah that was rough. (Psych)
I'm still not seeing the need
to know what 10.6's name is.
I don't know if Mozilla would do this, but Winamp used to provide two choices: The download with bundled extras, or the stripped download with just the player. So people could choose if they want Firefox+Writer Demo bundled, or just Firefox.
Something ye forgot:
YOU CAN'T RESELL E-TEXTS. When I was in college I used to buy books for about $50 used, get my work out of it, and then sell it for $40 at the end of semester. NET COST: $10.
Now this e-text idea will prevent us from doing that. It will end-up costing MORE not less.
>>>XP was released a year after Windows 2000.
2000 was a *professional* OS. XP was a consumer OS. Different markets (like Betacam and Betamax serve different markets), and the true successor to 2000 for professionals was Windows 2003.
>>>it's a bit ridiculous to say that Seamonkey is Firefox without the bloat, since (historically) it's the other way around and in terms of code-base there's a lot more 'bloat' in Seamonkey!
Wow. That was a long post. :-)
My theory is that Seamonkey doesn't load the extra components (email, chat, etc) since I never use them, therefore it acts like a stripped-down browser and does so more efficiently than Firefox (150,000 vs 300,000 KB according to my task manager). It's also worth noting that Puppy Linux, which is designed to be as small as possible so it can run 100% in memory, chose Seamonkey instead of Firefox. Why? Because:
"Firefox would be too big to run in RAM in a PC with 128 megabytes." - Puppy FAQ
>>>Netscape learned it the hard way
Netscape wasn't Netscape anymore. AOL was the one who made the (dumb) decision to release Mozilla 0.6 as Netscape 6. I suspect if Netscape had still been an independent company, they'd have waited for a stable M-1.0 version, or else release the older Netscape 5 (developed but never finalized).
.
>>>This older code base, plus incremental improvements over time, survives as Seamonkey.
I don't understand why people keep saying this? SeaMonkey is not derived from the old Netscape 1,2,3,4 code. That branch is dead (in the same way the Win95/98/me branch is dead). SeaMonkey was simply a renamed version of Mozilla Suite 1.8 (the new code).
Thanks! Maybe it's time I go check out Firefox 4, although I don't usually touch alphas or betas. Any idea when FF4 final will be released?
Thanks for the correction.
>>>Bundle OpenOffice with Firefox? You know how large the OpenOffice download is compared to Firefox, right?
Not a clue.
OO.o == 145 megabytes
M-FF == 11 megabytes
Okay I can see how that would be a problem. Maybe Mozilla could include a demo version of
"Writer" instead, and then provide a link to upgrade to the full suite, if the Firefox user likes it.
Oracle and OpenOffice.org have parted ways.
That means OO.o is no longer under Ellison's control, out also the programmers are out there with no support. I'd like to see Mozilla adopt them.
>>>Nursie was correct.
No. Nursie said, "...mozilla suite? The one [seamonkey] ditched and rewrote because of bloat?" which is not correct. SeaMonkey 1.0 == Mozilla Suite 1.8. Same software, and it has not been rewritten since then. Of course there were upgrades and bugfixes but that's it.
.
>>>Firefox was created, in part, to get rid of Mozilla Suite's bloat, which included a webpage editor, email client...
True. But they still kept the same core that Mozilla Suite used. They didn't do a "major rewrite"... they just removed the email/chat components as not needed.
.
>>>I don't buy that Firefox is bloated :-) Well that's cool you have that opinion, but have both Firefox and Seamonkey open right now. FF is using 300,000+ kilobytes of memory and SM just 150,000 kilobytes. Half. SM is also more responsive where FF sometimes freezes for a second or two.
AND seamonkey still has all those other features you don't like, such as email, chat, editor, etc.
Another feature seamonkey has which I love: The ability to resize this damn edit window so it's not so small. ;-) Just grab the corner and drag.
Why? Nobody has a trademark on OpenOffice.org. The programmers are free to go join Mozilla if they want.
>>>1. A Browser is a much smaller piece of software than an Office suit.
Is it? I always find it amusing that I can run MS Office 97(?) on my old laptop with only 8 megabytes of RAM. Good luck trying to make a browser fit into that. If they could make the Office suite small back then, surely they can do it today?
.
>>>2. We already have a decent office suit called OpenOffice
Agreed. Since Oracle dumped OpenOffice.org, they are kinda floundering. I think Mozilla should adopt them and help make OO.o as popular as Firefox has become.
>>>Mozilla Suite
And now Mozilla Suite, renamed SeaMonkey, uses half as much RAM on my computer as Firefox! Which I really don't understand - they both use the same core... only the user interface is different (seaMonkey resembles Netscape 4).
>>>Firefox "is" the current browser that is "healthy". It has the most maturity of any of the other browsers.
SeaMonkey is older (initially released as Mozilla Suite in 2000, then later renamed.)
Opera is older (1996?)
IE is older (sourced from Commodore Amiga Mosaic(1994)).
Perhaps by "maturity" you meant Firefox has the most features, but I still disagree with that. It doesn't have Opera Turbo (for slow connections), or Opera Link (online storage of bookmarks), or Opera Unite (friend sharing).
I'm not an expert, but from what I've been reading most of the innovations did not come from Mozilla. They came from Opera.
The Opera browser was initially ad-based and behind the times, but sometime around 2002 they started innovating. Goodbye ads. Hello tabs. They were the first to invent that idea. They innovated with addons (called widgets), and built-in spellcheck. They were the first to create Opera Mini (for cellphones), Opera Turbo (compression technology for slow internet connections), plus Opera Link (stores bookmarks online), and Opera Unite (photo and file sharing with friends).
Mozilla has mostly just been copying what Opera did first. Or so I've read.
>>>Wasn't seamonkey descended from the old mozilla suite? The one they ditched and rewrote because of bloat?
You're a bit confused. Netscape ditched COMMUNICATOR because it had become bloated (and slow). Mozilla Browser was the from-scratch code that was their solution. It eventually became the lean, efficient core for Netscape 6-9, Firefox, and SeaMonkey.
Netscape is retired.
Firefox continues.
SeaMonkey is similar to netscape 4 in appearance, but has all the features of firefox, minus the bloat.
>>>full polling of how individuals would decide
Democracy leads to suppression of the minority (and the individual). Rule by a Supreme Law that protects minority rights from being trampled by the 51% majority (or overzealous leaders) is a preferable form of organization. Not perfect, but certainly better than a tyranny by the majority. IMHO.
- If you don't believe, consider the fate of Socrates (and others) who lived in the Athenian Democracy. Executed by majority vote, simply because they didn't like his writings.
- Or japanese-Americans during World War 2..... locked up for ~5 years simply because that's what the majority wanted. Too bad President Roosevelt (D) was unwilling to obey the law/constitution, because it was illegal to do that to the Japanese. It could have been prevented.
- That's what your "direct democracy" would create... a society where you could execute someone in your state, or an unliked race, by a simple vote.
If Mozilla is bored, they can try making less bloated Firefox.
The SeaMonkey Beta I'm trying has the same functionality as Firefox (HTML5, addons, Gecko rendering), but only uses half as much RAM on my computer. Clearly Firefox is bloated and could use some optimization. If Mozilla needs a mission, let them return to the browser's original purpose when it started in 1999.
I'd use it!
Or maybe they could volunteer to help the now-orphaned OpenOffice.org group by saying, "Come over here. We'll help you organize, and you can use our familiar name. We'll even bundle it with Firefox and Seamonkey ZIP files, so you get wider distribution to billions of users."