That "necessary evil", killing an embryo - perhaps the genetic material used was from the GENIUS who developed this cloning experiment in the first place. Perhaps that embryo would have developed into a pretty smart guy too. Perhaps that embryo would have cured cancer, or solved the CIA crypto-sculpture or something.
But now we'll never know.
Did that embryo have a soul? Da Pope says yes. Da Darwin says no. Da ME says I don't fuggin' know, so what right do I have to decide?
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
I guess what would be nice is if they could direct cell-differentiation to the point of, once they begin a cloned embryo's development, they can direct only certain organ tissues to develop, so we grow say, only a genetically identical heart (in a saline bath - credit to Bill Cosby). Then the PETA people would have us clone cows, that only grow tenderloin tissue, we wouldn't need to raise and murder cattle anymore. ..
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
And for the one or two rich, self centered bastards out there who will have themselves cloned, really, I couldn't _think_ of a better punishment than for them to have a child who is exactly like _them_:>
and for the rich folks who do this, will also be able to afford a nanny to raise the little brats for them as well.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
damn. If I was born without hands, I sure as hell WOULD want my genetic code changed.
If they could fix my nearsightedness, I sure as hell would want my genetic code changed.
If they could fix my back problems (or prevent my offspring from having them), I sure as hell would want my genetic code changed.
Why the hell would I want to pass on suffering to my offspring? A couple of alterations here and there wouldn't hurt - but going much farther, to the point where I and my offspring wouldn't be similar any longer, genetically speaking, I'd kind of shy away from that.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
come on - PEOPLE did these things. How can you blame a god you don't even believe in? Millions of people were killed by - people.
If religion made it more convenient to explain why entire villages had to be "put to the sword", then wow, what a convenient tool. Almost as convenient as "weapons of mass destruction".
The first three words God says to mankind in the book of Genesis are "You are free. .." - so you can't blame God for things man does. Unless you don't believe in free-will, in which case, it really makes no sense to believe in God either.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
And we all know that mitochondria are really midichlorians, so if this cow was strong with the force, so will the cloned offspring, no matter what genetic material it had.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
Well, I think this all revisits the whole abortion debate - as in: define "human" define "murder"
Is "murder", the taking of a "human" life? So, at what point, does egg/sperm become "human"? Well, to differentiate humans from animals, we say humans have a soul, and animals do not, otherwise, eating a hamburger would be murder. Some people feel that is the case, and those people I would please ask to go shut up and eat some tofu, for the purposes of this discussion. For those who do not believe in souls, or think defining this is legalistically impossible, (because there is no legal way to prove the existance of the soul) - we go about this issue with the term "intelligence", or "human consciousness". Well, philosiphers have debated this concept for centuries, and we now have a few half-baked theories on what this means, but still, no hard evidence on what's different between humans and animals, other than observations of behavior. So they draw the line at the "approximate" time in development when the fetus starts developing a brain, as if the brain harbored the soul. The fact is, the Bible is pretty damn unclear on this. So this is a point I personally don't get all worked up about guilt-wise. There's really only a couple of applicable scripture passages, one stating that it's bad to even use birth control (premature withdrawl method), and another which states that God ". . knew me even before I was formed in my mother's womb". This suggests that even before egg meets sperm, there's a soul, in a primordial state, waiting for a human body to plug into. What's not clear is, if something happens to this fertilized egg, and it dies, is this a death? In the context of the passage about birth-control, God wasn't mad about a murder, he was mad that this guy didn't continue his family-line (because it was "important" in the big scheme of things - I interperet this as an anectdotal message, not an example for all humanity) does the soul then go to it's final resting place? or does it "try again" for another fetus? Simply knowing the sheer numbers of natural spontaneous abortions that happen (1/3 of all pregnancies total?) you would think God had a contingincy plan here. Either that, or a large chunk of folks in the afterlife were never actually born. So, maybe God "plugs in" your soul at a later time, or maybe takes into account the destiny of the fertilized egg - either it's destined to die, or destined to be born and live, and in the former case, never assigns a soul. In this case, will God "help out" in cases where we need the tissue, but don't necessarily want a new life? Or will God make us unknowingly "murderers"?
I'm not of the calibre of DesCartes, so I'm not going to pursue this further, but I thought that the subject was sufficiently muddled (the topic of how biblical morality applies to cloning), that some issues needed to be clarified.
This does need to be settled - just like every toddler has to come to grips eventually with: "gee, I can pee in my pants, but is it the right thing to do?"
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
Just because it's technically possible to destroy an entire city with one atom bomb, doesn't make it morally or ethically "right". Or inevitable.
Michael Chriton said it best in Jurrasic Park; the scientist spent so much time trying to figure out if they COULD do it, they didn't think about whether they SHOULD. ..
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
. . . wasn't it McNealy who said; "you don't have any privacy anyway, so get over it"
?
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
Re:Could someone tell me why it was bad?
on
DIVX is dead
·
· Score: 1
Our local Hollywood video did it the other way around, much more beneficial.
$3.50 for a movie, 5-day rental. If you return it within 24 hours, you get a $1.00-off coupon.
Now THAT'S an improved rental model!!
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
Re:Could someone tell me why it was bad?
on
DIVX is dead
·
· Score: 1
okay, so what? Blockbuster can have their little database of how many times I've rented Blade Runner, or that time I kept The Truman Show two days past the due-date.
But I'd be an idiot to rent porno from Blockbuster anyway. There's other video rental stores than Blockbuster, there's still lots of little mom-n-pop shops that don't keep a national centralized database.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
Re:PT Barnum is spining in his grave
on
DIVX is dead
·
· Score: 1
naw.
Folks are still buying intel chips.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
Re:Geeks To Consumers: We Were Right After All
on
DIVX is dead
·
· Score: 1
This argument actually references the "PC's are dead" topic.
Why the fsck would I (or anyone) want to pay-per-use across the internet to an Adobe Software server for Photoshop, rather than simply buy the CD, and install it on my local HD, and use it on a non-internet-connected machine?
That whole scheme is doomed to failure.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
Heh, when I was little, for Christmas, my brother got a radio controlled car, and I got a Star Trek walkie-talkie, with a morse-code key button. It didn't take me long, listening to the walkie-talkie, to realize that I could hear muted signals coming through from my brother's car, so I tried the morse-code key, and I made my brother's car turn. He tried returning it, but they wouldn't take it back because it worked just fine at the store. I drove him nuts for weeks until he caught me in the act, and beat the crap out of me.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
hm. Interesting observation. You must be new to this "computer thing", so let me clue you in. It's been this way since the beginning of time. It's been one of the great arguments FOR single-platform dominance. If you eliminate all the competition, the one remaining dominant player will stop trying to spit out alpha-quality releases to get a feature leg-up on the enemy, and they'll simply sit-back and slowly, and carefully produce quality code.
As if.
Do we see this from MS in the OS market? How about the Productivity app market?
The culture that mainstream software is fostering is, sell CD's, make money. Sell CD's, make money. If the product is shoddy, support will fix it. If support costs too much, we'll just charge for it and make support a profit center.
I guess stating any more about this topic in this forum is preaching to the choir. ..
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months." -jafac's law
Slashdot Mirror
(playing DA here)
That "necessary evil", killing an embryo - perhaps the genetic material used was from the GENIUS who developed this cloning experiment in the first place. Perhaps that embryo would have developed into a pretty smart guy too. Perhaps that embryo would have cured cancer, or solved the CIA crypto-sculpture or something.
But now we'll never know.
Did that embryo have a soul?
Da Pope says yes.
Da Darwin says no.
Da ME says I don't fuggin' know, so what right do I have to decide?
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
I think you're confusing religion with politics. Very dangerous thing to do. Can be convenient for those in power. Very inconvenient for those not.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
I guess what would be nice is if they could direct cell-differentiation to the point of, once they begin a cloned embryo's development, they can direct only certain organ tissues to develop, so we grow say, only a genetically identical heart (in a saline bath - credit to Bill Cosby). .
Then the PETA people would have us clone cows, that only grow tenderloin tissue, we wouldn't need to raise and murder cattle anymore. .
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
I trusted nature and look what I got-
bad eyes and an aching back, and a predisposition for obesity (not there yet, but I'm working on it).
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
If I was legless, I could wait that long.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
And for the one or two rich, self centered bastards out there who will have themselves cloned, really, :>
I couldn't _think_ of a better punishment than for them to have a child who is exactly like _them_
and for the rich folks who do this, will also be able to afford a nanny to raise the little brats for them as well.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
damn.
If I was born without hands, I sure as hell WOULD want my genetic code changed.
If they could fix my nearsightedness, I sure as hell would want my genetic code changed.
If they could fix my back problems (or prevent my offspring from having them), I sure as hell would want my genetic code changed.
Why the hell would I want to pass on suffering to my offspring? A couple of alterations here and there wouldn't hurt - but going much farther, to the point where I and my offspring wouldn't be similar any longer, genetically speaking, I'd kind of shy away from that.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
come on - PEOPLE did these things. How can you blame a god you don't even believe in? Millions of people were killed by - people.
." - so you can't blame God for things man does. Unless you don't believe in free-will, in which case, it really makes no sense to believe in God either.
If religion made it more convenient to explain why entire villages had to be "put to the sword", then wow, what a convenient tool. Almost as convenient as "weapons of mass destruction".
The first three words God says to mankind in the book of Genesis are "You are free. .
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
NO
ObiWan fought WITH Luke's father in the clone wars, as in, on the same side.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
#5 would be sick with you, but hey, I'm pretty good-looking!
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
And we all know that mitochondria are really midichlorians, so if this cow was strong with the force, so will the cloned offspring, no matter what genetic material it had.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Well, I think this all revisits the whole abortion debate - as in:
define "human"
define "murder"
Is "murder", the taking of a "human" life?
So, at what point, does egg/sperm become "human"? Well, to differentiate humans from animals, we say humans have a soul, and animals do not, otherwise, eating a hamburger would be murder. Some people feel that is the case, and those people I would please ask to go shut up and eat some tofu, for the purposes of this discussion.
For those who do not believe in souls, or think defining this is legalistically impossible, (because there is no legal way to prove the existance of the soul) - we go about this issue with the term "intelligence", or "human consciousness". Well, philosiphers have debated this concept for centuries, and we now have a few half-baked theories on what this means, but still, no hard evidence on what's different between humans and animals, other than observations of behavior. So they draw the line at the "approximate" time in development when the fetus starts developing a brain, as if the brain harbored the soul.
The fact is, the Bible is pretty damn unclear on this. So this is a point I personally don't get all worked up about guilt-wise. There's really only a couple of applicable scripture passages, one stating that it's bad to even use birth control (premature withdrawl method), and another which states that God ". . knew me even before I was formed in my mother's womb". This suggests that even before egg meets sperm, there's a soul, in a primordial state, waiting for a human body to plug into. What's not clear is, if something happens to this fertilized egg, and it dies, is this a death? In the context of the passage about birth-control, God wasn't mad about a murder, he was mad that this guy didn't continue his family-line (because it was "important" in the big scheme of things - I interperet this as an anectdotal message, not an example for all humanity) does the soul then go to it's final resting place? or does it "try again" for another fetus? Simply knowing the sheer numbers of natural spontaneous abortions that happen (1/3 of all pregnancies total?) you would think God had a contingincy plan here. Either that, or a large chunk of folks in the afterlife were never actually born. So, maybe God "plugs in" your soul at a later time, or maybe takes into account the destiny of the fertilized egg - either it's destined to die, or destined to be born and live, and in the former case, never assigns a soul. In this case, will God "help out" in cases where we need the tissue, but don't necessarily want a new life? Or will God make us unknowingly "murderers"?
I'm not of the calibre of DesCartes, so I'm not going to pursue this further, but I thought that the subject was sufficiently muddled (the topic of how biblical morality applies to cloning), that some issues needed to be clarified.
This does need to be settled - just like every toddler has to come to grips eventually with: "gee, I can pee in my pants, but is it the right thing to do?"
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Just because it's technically possible to destroy an entire city with one atom bomb, doesn't make it morally or ethically "right". Or inevitable.
.
Michael Chriton said it best in Jurrasic Park; the scientist spent so much time trying to figure out if they COULD do it, they didn't think about whether they SHOULD. .
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Send them to the island of misfit toys.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
You want some insight? Why not write a dozen or so "intentionally" anti-Microsoft slanted articles and see what happens?
.
In the best-case scenario, it could be fun, and give msnbc.com a bunch of sensational hits.
On the other hand, in the worst-case scenario. .
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Sorry. Not just "slashdot readers". Nobody on the consumer-side wants "metered computing".
Call it a dead paradigm if you wish, but when people pay money for goods, they want to OWN something.
That's why marriage is more popular than prostitution.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
I don't throw away my AOL CD's.
I let my gerbil chew them up and use the shavings as bedding.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
. . . wasn't it McNealy who said;
"you don't have any privacy anyway, so get over it"
?
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Our local Hollywood video did it the other way around, much more beneficial.
$3.50 for a movie, 5-day rental.
If you return it within 24 hours, you get a $1.00-off coupon.
Now THAT'S an improved rental model!!
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
okay, so what?
Blockbuster can have their little database of how many times I've rented Blade Runner, or that time I kept The Truman Show two days past the due-date.
But I'd be an idiot to rent porno from Blockbuster anyway. There's other video rental stores than Blockbuster, there's still lots of little mom-n-pop shops that don't keep a national centralized database.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
naw.
Folks are still buying intel chips.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
This argument actually references the "PC's are dead" topic.
Why the fsck would I (or anyone) want to pay-per-use across the internet to an Adobe Software server for Photoshop, rather than simply buy the CD, and install it on my local HD, and use it on a non-internet-connected machine?
That whole scheme is doomed to failure.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
The NSA probably solved this one back in the 60's, and are laughing their asses off now.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Heh, when I was little, for Christmas, my brother got a radio controlled car, and I got a Star Trek walkie-talkie, with a morse-code key button. It didn't take me long, listening to the walkie-talkie, to realize that I could hear muted signals coming through from my brother's car, so I tried the morse-code key, and I made my brother's car turn. He tried returning it, but they wouldn't take it back because it worked just fine at the store. I drove him nuts for weeks until he caught me in the act, and beat the crap out of me.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
hm. Interesting observation. You must be new to this "computer thing", so let me clue you in. It's been this way since the beginning of time. It's been one of the great arguments FOR single-platform dominance. If you eliminate all the competition, the one remaining dominant player will stop trying to spit out alpha-quality releases to get a feature leg-up on the enemy, and they'll simply sit-back and slowly, and carefully produce quality code.
.
As if.
Do we see this from MS in the OS market? How about the Productivity app market?
The culture that mainstream software is fostering is, sell CD's, make money. Sell CD's, make money. If the product is shoddy, support will fix it. If support costs too much, we'll just charge for it and make support a profit center.
I guess stating any more about this topic in this forum is preaching to the choir. .
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law