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The AOL-Netscape-Sun Triune want to slay Microsoft
paRcat wrote to us with the lastest
news from MS Trial. It appears, from court documents, that AOL-Sun-Netscpe (Or, Apollo, Zeus and Odyssey as they referred to themselves) have laid a plan to make Microsoft irrelevant. Reading through much of it is common-sense, but it's interesting to see the plans laid out, including the tidbit that IE4-AOL is "the last" one.
The three are betting heavily on the notion that everything runs off of the Internet-and they mean everything, pairing that with Java from Sun, and Netscape in applications, they want to dominate everything.
Thanks God, there is someone who speaks some sense.
Sun and co. are just as mental as Microsoft are. Their products are rubbish....I suppose marketing is where it is at.
When is Linux going to have flash adverts on t.v.?
Simply Senzuri
Now I can't for myself see how Java could be used for low level OS stuff (rather redundant) but such an OS exists already.
Remember that the Java classes are essentially executable code and chips do exist that use bytecode as the native language so it may not be that bad.
Despite all this, the notion seems like their playing king of the hill and not sleigh the dragon.
--- Linux... a college project gone horribly right
I don't think so.. MSNBC is *partly* owned by msft. Where would their credibility be if they only reported good info about msft?? Who would read their news??
Its about the bottom line: cash. to get cash, get readers, to get the readers to give you cash- show them advertisements..
Hi Folks,
/. land. Maybe all my brethren are scared to post. Now for the defence.
I feel like the only Netscaper out here in
While I am of the mind that almost all of our media is now catering to the interests of a few corporate giants (NBC - GE, ABC - DISNEY.. etc), I do not think that the trinity that I now work for will be bad for the Internet and it's protocols. It's not the same as the electromagnetic spectrum and the silliness of the US Govt and the telco/cable/telephone cartels. Netscape and Sun have been innovators who have open sourced and RFCed a very valuable segment of the common literature. I'm going to try to help it stay that way. More folks helping Mozilla would go a long way too.
As for the content of those Internet channels that we surf, well, we know AOL's "family" policy. We each have our own opinion on that. But it's for sure that you can use these technologies to put up your own websites, and say whatever you please. Please do.
Microsoft picked the fight. Just maybe someone else will win.
(Then of course, capitalism will fall into ruin and we'll all live free, liberated, able to lead our lives productively without having to sell our labor -- but that's certainly not my employer's opinion!)
Reminds me of Foundation, when they're worried about Anacreon being taken over. [Anyone who hasn't read Asimov should stop reading at this point.] Like the treaty between the Galactic Empire and Anacreon, it was a few pages of crap that boiled down to basically nothing.
It is somewhat scary though. I don't want AOL everywhere. I really, really dislike them. To put it lightly.
Same applies to MS, though.
Let me clarify.
they = the leaders on Terminus
"Anacreon being taken over" should be "Anacreon taking over them"
Sorry.. heh
cant they find something better to do than
trying to 'dominate' the rest of us?
didnt they get the hint from the internet?
they have had networking tech. since the 60s
but it took cooperation and volunteers to make
the Internet what it is. this had nothing to do
with some guy in a suit 'dominating' anyone.
if they want to go to 'war' why dont they join
the damn army.
Yes, I've seen the other coverage. That's why the tone of the article seems so strange. And you're right about Boies. He not only pulls these things off, he does them with just the right timing and theatrical sense. Thing is, though, that all else about the deal aside, if AOL, which MS says is now so powerful that they can challenge MS in the marketplace, is afraid to annoy MS by dropping MS's browser in favor of one AOL owns, that only shores up the proposition that MS has a monopoly. It certainly doesn't help MS's case any.
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
Let me get this straight. The people who put "MS" in "MSNBC" have no influence whatsoever over the editorial content?
They aren't involved in hiring or firing anyone?
They don't provide any advertising revenue?
They don't provide any funding in any form (such as paychecks, lowered/eliminated prices on hardware/software)?
No influence? Or invisible influence? Or all-pervasive influence that the (no offense) serfs such as yourself don't even notice?
I'm sure you've never gotten a call from MS in the middle of the night: "Nice family you've got there. Be a shame if somethin' happen'd to it." But that doesn't mean they have no influence.
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
I (think) remember one (idea) application of Multics was to sell people terminals and
then connect them to big central Multics computers
and they could do all their email and applications or whatever. hmmm Maybe history DOES repeat
itself. Well personaly, I would never sign up
for something like that.. Gee pay by the hour
to use M$ crap, I really want to do that.
Ahem, that's exactly what AOL/Sun is about... remember the mottos: AOL everywhere and The network is the computer (Sun). Not to forget NCs...
Geez, at least with MS (or Linux, for that matter) we have a desktop OS with local applications. I'm not saying that's the future, but with the bandwidth we have now, it's the better solution.
And I personally don't like a lot the idea of my address book or schedule stored remotely on some server not under my direct control...
In this book, the bad guys were a Cable Company/Internet Provider
Spooky isn't it?
--Blerik
--Blerik
It's going to be tough for them to pull off. "AOL Everywhere"? The slogan has got to be bolder than the reality of it. It probably translates more into, "AOL available on every reasonable platform and pipe." I guess I can't argue with that.
Sun's vision of fat servers and dumb clients? Maybe. There are certainly a few issues which are going to work against that -- privacy, and games. I might want to type, send, and store my email on a remote server, but I'm going to be a whole lot less trusting to put personal finances and information on an online "excel/word" application to be stored and managed for me.
Even WORSE, it leads to "metered computing", which nobody wants. Quake type games become impossible to run, and you've got vendor lock-in with their decision of what application you run. (Well, kind of like Microsoft, huh?)
Sun has done a great job of defending its turf ever since Microsoft jumped it on the workstation space, and made a feeble attempt at the datacenter. I'm rooting for Sun here. As far as AOL? If it floats someone's boat, good for them. Just don't ram it down my throat like MSN.
Well, the author has made an interesting point, which I hate to say that I've fallen into. The point is that the battle against Microsoft is going to change the landscape in ways I may not like, win or lose. Linux is looking better even more these days. I need to install it.
rather not have MS over thrown.Used to there crud
but, With AOL different ballgame maybe
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
If they do, I'm sure we'll see the story on Slashdot:
Truisms for Nerds. Stuff that's Obvious.
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
So this is what Illiad was predicting... (see UF here)
How is Sun hardware proprietary ? do you even own any Sun hardware or use any Sun hardware ? cause if you did, you wouldnt be making such a stupid comment.
Hahah, you must suck as a Java programmer.
Don't know how to write scalable programs do you?
Running on a shitty VM are you?
Just buy a $1000 dual pentium-ii box, stick 128mb of ram, the Solaris x86, and the Sun JDK1.2
Solaris production release.
Use Servlets, don't use overuse sessions (are you a dumbass? *NEVER* store huge amounts of state on the server, in ANY programming language), and you're performance will destroy Perl, PHP, Cold Fusion, and every other environment.
If your performance sucked, it's your fault. Other sites like Mail.com and Sun's Developer Connection run on Java Servlets on Java Web Server and easily handle millions of users.
Mail.com handles 5 million users.
but why bother? You, cjr, have put into words my very thoughts. Thank you.
I got a wonderful mental picture with hoards of gaunt and starving people frantically digging in the plains of Texas for oil; dirt was flying everywhere as they sought to compete with Standard Oil! Reminds me alot of today's computing marketplace.
If you ask me, Microsoft is insulting our intelligence! Who in their right mind would fall for Microsoft's assertion that these three companies pose any REAL threat to it's monopoly? Not me says I.
I'm sick to death of Microsoft's heavy handedness in the computing industry - it's time for a change! I laud these three (now two) company's (AOL and Sun) partnership; it may someday become competition for Microsoft. Someday.
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Bollocks. Netscape stole the idea of COM from MS.
. . . wasn't it McNealy who said;
"you don't have any privacy anyway, so get over it"
?
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Todd -- Did you read our daily trial coverage the day before? Brock Meeks covered it (he's our lead guy on the trial) and basically reported the same stuff that everyone else did. http://www.msnbc.com/news/279890.asp
Anyone who would accuse Brock of having a pro-MS bias is crazy! The MS flaks and lawyers usually run for cover when he comes to ask them questions. And Brill's Content (the independent ombudsman magazine) just wrote an article commending him for being impartial in spite of MS' partnership in our site (they weren't so kind with ABC's Disney affiliation a couple months back!)
Anyway, the story we wrote on AOL wasn't supposed to be about the jusge's reaction, but was a feature spun-off from the trial. The idea was to take a step back and sift through all the documents ourselves and determine what we could about the nature of this blockbuster deal.
So we'd already reported the part you said, and were trying to take the story in a direction that would add value for our readers. And to satisfy our own curiosity, as I (as someone who covers AOL and Netscape) personally found the documents fascinating.
And that email from Case you mentioned -- you should have been there in court. David Boies slowly stood up and waited quietly for Warden to finished. Then at a key moment, he introduced Pittman's respone citing a rule of evidence that it should be included since it was part of the same document technically.
By the time Warden was done objecting, both Jackson and Colburn (not to mention all of us in the peanut gallery) were so curious about what the response was, that Warden had no choice but to ask Colburn about it right then and there.
It ended up turning what was looking like a big point for MS into a huge score for the government. Boies is quite an attorney.
MS has a very simple paradigm...to be at the top of every software category. Until a company comes along with that same paradigm, MS will be the top SW company in the world.
BTW, eBay runs off Sun...I guess that means they put the 'o' in DOH!.
Yes, Sun has given us Java. There is nothing inherently wrong with Java; unfortunately, there seem to be more non-developers out there who decide to moan about how bad it supposedly is. As for Jini, it isn't really "vaporware" as it actually exists. Never heard about the demos they pulled off a little while back? Not to mention the notice it got at last JavaOne. Vaporware has to be defined as lack of existance. Jini doesn't fit that role.
There is nothing illegal about having a monopoly, this is anti-trust, which is when you have monopoly or near monopoly, you leverage that to keep your monopoly.
An example, Standard Oil in the 19th century. They had a near monopoly in the Oil business. If a competitor would appear, then Standard would undercut the competitor's prices until the competitor could not afford to stay in the business.
This is similar to what MS did with IE, give it away for free to kill Netscape.
It's the anti-competative behavior that is illegal.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
As far as I'm concerned, the world would be a better place without Micro$oft AND without AOHell. AOL basically made Micro$oft operating systems internet friendly before Micro$oft had the brains to do it. Now that AOL has a big cutomer base (thanks to 90 some % of PCs runnig winblows) they think they have some sort of power. NOBODY has EVER bought a computer because it has AOL on it.
I'm just getting too mad about this... I'm going to stop writing.
--
Let us go back, about 2000 years back, to be precise...
During the rule of the Roman emperor Gaius Julius Caesar, Rome was prospering. He had just bumped off Pompey, and conquered Gaul. So on the whole he was doing pretty good.
Now along comes Brutus et al, and they kill him. A bit of a problem on the ol' conquering front, being dead.
Now, this understandably causes a bit of civil unrest. (and I'll get to the point in a minute..) Mark Anthony, Caesar's adopted son, takes a bit of objection to a bunch of upstarts going and killing his father, so he stirs up the public a bit. They soon are after the conspirator's blood.
When they are safely in exile (the conspirators, not Anthony), he and Octavius, and Lepidus form the second Triumvirate (three men). They take control, and are soon no better on the evil dictator front than Caesar.
Now isn't this like the AOL-Sun-Netscape Triune wanting to kill Microsoft? Let's do a little comparison...
AOL NETSCAPE SUN | MICROSOFT
ANTHONY OCTAVIUS LEPIDUS | CONSPIRATORS
There we go. And we mustn't forget the end of the second Triumvirate, they all got jealous of each other, and ended up with Ant and Octavius killing Lepidus, and Ant killing Octo.
(I apologise for any historical errors in the text...I'm kinda winging it a bit until my End of Year exams.)
~Linux is not The Answer. Yes is the answer. Linux is The Question.
The problem with the "AOL PC" is where are the other applications, ie. Office applications??? What else could you do with an AOL PC other than surf and send email?? Not much else -- no games, no office apps, no servers, just surfing.
Look at what both Corel and Microsoft are doing with their 2000 suites. They're working towards selling the end user a "thin client" application that includes just enough functionality to allow the user to do whatever has to be done on the client side, i.e. setup, configuration, UI, etc. with the core of the application living on a server at your local neighborhood Application Service Provider (ASP). In other words, without the ASP (whether it's your corporate app servers or your ISP) your MS Office is an empty shell. This is a bad thing, just another way to lock users into proprietary software, in my opinion.
There are some interesting articles floating around that detail how Microsoft, Intel, HP, Cisco and other big players are investing in the infrastructure required for this type of application.
slashdot broke my sig
AOL's visions of the future look even scarier than MS's current monopoly - FAR worse. Or am I just being paranoid? It seems like AOL wants to completely replace the Internet with their own network, and control of the network is FAR worse than control of the endpoints. Look at why AOL doesn't want to get involved with cable companies - That's some scary stuff.
Still, I hope that AOL/Netscape/Sun is moderately successful in their plans - I don't think they'll achieve the plans they have, but they probably WILL shake MS up quite a bit. This is going to leave a perfect opportunity for Linus's joking comments about world domination to become true. After MS's marketing stranglehold is broken, technically superior solutions will finally rise.
You might say that AOL/NS/Sun will try to FUD us to nonexistence like MS has. Well, we've got a headstart on them by around 10 million users, and we're already growing rapidly.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Does any of the other 3:
I could go on much further. Basically, there's lots of things MS have done that just about no other company has ever done or done to that extreme. There's lots of people who seem to fall to MS's own PR - ie anyone who wants to supplant us, is just as bad as us.
Also, to focus on Sun's Java software is highly missleading. Sure it's their biggest PR problems with respect to the open source community, but it's still a far cry from typical MS operations. Anyone can get the source code to Java. (not even close with Windows, and MS's 'hints' of open source seem to be just starshine so far). Sun's 'community source liscense' is still pretty closed, and they need to sort out things though. Neither is Java a once off - Sun are making most of their source code available it seems. Jini is most definately not vapourware - how can it be vapourware if the source code has been available for downloading for months? Also, part of Java (the JavaServer Pages/servlet stuff) is be coming with Apache, as source code, under the Apache liscense. Far cry from MS.
Java is just a tiny, but highly visible part of Sun, and they make very little revenue or profit from it directly. Sun's hardware and Solaris software is highly reliable, secure, scalable - far more so than Windows.
What happened to the linux task force over at MS who were going to try to port Office to linux?
Uh, it was just yet-another unsubstantiated rumor about MS? This was never verified as actually happening. An all too frequent occurance for /. "news" these days, I'm afraid.
oh come on, this is obviously just a bunch of microsoft FUD going on.
thats all, I am not going to belive this untill I start seeing some hard evidence on things not owned by microsoft.
I mean this really paints a BAD!! picture of the AOL-NETSCAPE-SUN trio. and just what is this legal battle of MS about, its about microsoft's monolpoly, and who are the key players in it, aol, netscape, and sun.
and I don't think that trio would try to beat MS at there own game and get in the same position as MS is in, at least netscape and sun is smarter than that, I am not to sure about aol though
-------------------------------------------------
As if Sun & the other companies are any better. If they were in the same position as MS they'd probably use the same tactics.
// C
Maybe you're just bitter that most /.ers haven't warmed up to the Mac, eh?
MSNBC seem to positively delight in baiting their part-funders into trying to influence the editorial policy, with articles highly critical of both their business practices and their software and praising Linux to the skies. I think this guy is sincere.
--
Employ me! Unix,Linux,crypto/security,Perl,C/C++,distance work. Edinburgh UK.
Xenu loves you!
1970/1 (I forget... gotta check that Win^H^H^H game programming book again)
First GUI invented Used to hate Xerox for
dropping the project but no doubt it's because of Luddites like yourself who were using that killer application - the lawn mower - most of the time.
1975 MS formed
Big Whoop. BAssIC. Down with IBM (who used to share source monopoles as they were).
...
1985 First 32-bit OS Available
Amiga for $500 in 1987 - NC before NCs.
4096 colors
Big question how come the following was gaining ground?
1991 Tandy 1000 SL $1200 384k RAM 8086 16 Colors
Let me see your Luddite merit badge again.
Incidentally the birth of Linux.
Hmm 1999 the PUBLIC discovers multiple GUI's.
Get off your phony evolutionary theorist high horse. The next generation is going to be more than just lame App servers over the net. That's the fucking best you can come up with? I see Open Hardware design, I see intelligent effects processor boards for High Budget Multimedia artists. They will be able to do in a virtual world what they can do on canvas and with clay. And I mean artistic effects boards that can transfer learned styles from one 3D model to another. Distorted Model Style Recognition. I see every person being able to do the work they need to do at whatever paradigm they need to do it. Not the crap that happens to be the latest bullshit fad.
You've had a desk job too long get some air on the moon.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
It's not different at all, of course (except that there are three companies which makes it a trust and not a monopoly perhaps).
There seems to be an assumption that microsoft is somehow `evil'. This is wrong. They are just doing the best they can to make money, the same as any company will. Sun would do the same thing if they were in microsoft's shoes (as would I). Because Microsoft are a monopoly, their attempts to make money hurt the consumer, but it's not their fault they are a monopoly, it's just that free markets are vulnerable to this kind of cascade runaway where all power ends up with one organisation.
So of course, it will not be fifferent. All we can hope is that the anti monopoly laws are enforced sooner next time around.
Sun doesn't seem any more proprietary than Wintel to me. The OS can be licensed by other hardware makers, as can the Sparc architecture. See SPARC International for more information.
catdoc can convert .doc into TeX or plain text.
Works on all but the most complicated docs.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Server based applications?, sounds like a job for X-terminals to me.
Isn't it ironic that MSNBC is reporting on the planned demise of Micros~1?
Tom Byrum
'Triune': Hemos started using a thesaurus.
---
Ryan Wilhelm
Lotus Notes Administrator
Executive Risk, Inc.
Why don't they just make a pact with COREL & ORACLE. COREL makes an office suite-didn't they try a JAVA one or something a couple years ago? And use Oracle for your database--personal addition. Even if they did something like that-it is no different than M$. I know commitees take a while, but you do get some pretty decent standards from them. If a cooperation sets the standards like M$ or anyone else, everyone pays for it & w/ more than money. If they want to make a commercial product, fine. But let an independent standards body create the standards and follow them. If they would do that, it would certainly fix a lot of problems. All for now...
Office is a relatively new to the world of Office computing. WordPerfect was the standard for sometime, if MS starts to lose it, WP could come back into play.
from Microsoft how? I am far from a fan of MS by any stretch but quite honestly how does this make this trinity different from the way Microsoft is now? Other than the fact that its 3 companies united via partnership. I'm far from a lawyer as well so does this still constitute the same business practices that MS is in trouble for right now?
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
I didn't say that the current incarnation of Office 2000 is a thin client application--I said they were working towards this goal. There's plenty of press that proves this, including statements from Mr. Gates himself.
Here's an interesting article that gives some clues on where things are headed. This is not a pretty picture:
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,3 7913,00.html
slashdot broke my sig
A transparent attempt by M$ to position itself
as the victim in the court of public opinion. We should fear the evil-three not M$, is what the piece wants us to believe.
Frankly, I do fear an AOL-dominated world as much as the M$-dominated world we now live in. Hopefully, none will come to pass.
I say that the AOL symbol should be the main part of the
"evil three" logo, because, like you said, it almost fits the bill
already. Also, Netscape is really just a part of aol now. And,
of course, AOL is by far the most evil and MS-like of the three
companies.
Start with the AOL logo, and color it black, with evil looking fire
peeking around the edges. Inside, blend in a picture of a sinister
mozilla, warped and twisted from it's previously good, pure
form. In the monster's eye, or perhaps partly hidden behind
the head, put a deep red, sinister looking sun.
I think a logo like that would be really cool, funny, and make
a statement at the same time. Anyone out there really good
with the Gimp? I'm not, but I'll try my best.
Vidi, Vici, Veni
These concerns may be well-founded. Of course, this in no way changes the fact that MS should be punished to the full extent of the law for all the crap they have pulled.
It's great news!
In 18 months or so it might just be possible to run java apps and applets without going for a coffeebreak while they execute... On this great machine
The problem with the "AOL PC" is where are the
other applications, ie. Office applications???
What else could you do with an AOL PC other
than surf and send email?? Not much else --
no games, no office apps, no servers, just
surfing. You may as well buy a WebTV. If you
think you can build Java apps to play Quake
and write heavily formatted spread sheets, well
it's not going to happen any time soon -- Java
can't handle heavy applications.
Microsoft's dominance rests on at least three
hinges: Windows, Microsoft Office, and Internet
Explorer. OK, so you figure you can replace
Windows and Internet Explorer but you're
forgeting the Big One: Microsoft Office, and
I don't recall Sun or Netscape having any office
application ready to roll.
As long as the business world is hopelessly
addicted to MS Office, Windows will be there
too. The only real threat to that market is
Linux w/ Star Office or Applix or some other
office suite in Linux.
If there's one thing you can't do, it is to assume an average user know anything. One of the ISP's I've done consulting for once got a complaint for a user that wanted his money back because their advertizing didn't specify that he had to have a computer of some sort to access the internet. And I've personally listened in on a support call where the user didn't understand why things didn't work, even though his modem was turned off... But wait, it gets better... It wasn't just turned off - it wasn't hooked up at all... And then it turned out the bastard hadn't even taken it out of the package he got it im. He just assumed it would work lieing there in the original box without electricity.
When he finally hooked everything up, and we had walked through all of the setup with him, we asked him to choose dial. He called back a quarter later and wondered why he heard weird noises from his phone when he dialed the number we had given him. Turns out he called the modem number with his phone.
And do you know what the worst part is? That was a stupid user, but he wasn't much worse than average... Of course, the smart users doesn't typically call support. But the point is: You can't assume anything about your user base.
You may consider yourself a newbie, but the fact that you even know what a server is means your much closer to being a poweruser.
I'm betting on microsoft.mil myself..
Microsoft: We make the things that make communications break.
1) correct but like they stated in the article these are long term goals, aol/sun isn't trying to do this stuff right now they are only trying to perfect the technology so that when the infrastructure is there they will be ready for it.
2) no it isn't fast enough now, but now dosen't matter it's 3 years down the road that matters.
3) well digitally signing java aplications is trivial. security will be a problem but it a problem now too. since there are currently ways to improve security it would be a good bet that they will have even better ways when this stuff is ready.
4) again, stop thinking now. this stuff isn't even close to being ready now, it's a few years down the road that's important. yes they will probably have problems with overloading from time to time but this is the way things work now. when they do have problems they will upgrade, just like companies do now.
5)well even editors now have autosave features, but in never really says that it will be done the way you are thinking. a more practical way would be to base it on the way source control systems currently work except all the workings would be hidden from the user. you open your term paper and a local copy is downloaded from the server, when ever you save and/or periodically it will sync what you have edited with whats on the server, if it can't sync it will schedual a task and sync later when it can connect. sure there are going to be times when data will be lost but that happens now, net outages, power outages, equipmnent failure, no matter what it is chances are a company will be doing a better job of securing your data than you would be able to do yourself at home.
Something with a triangle in it would be good. Needs to have that hint of evil conspiracy in it as well. Maybe just a triangle with an eye in the center like the Illuminati (sp?) symbol? (See the back of a one dollar bill, top of the pyramid, for example). Maybe put the Sun/AOL/Netscape Logos in the corners?
remenber that JVM that sun ported to the palm V? think that they are gearing up to test some of these ideas?
and with AOL graping ICQ, winAMP. they are gathering the data they need. and the app's they need to tie everything to netcenter.
thank discorda, that mozilla is open source, cause when it is ready im grabing a copy and rolling my own... ( need a good browser and mozilla is getting everything right )
if you look, (just scan some headlines) sometimes you can see what is "really" going on.
nmarshall
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
R.U. SIRIUS: THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE
nmarshall
The law is that which it boldly asserted and plausibly maintained..
--Colonel Burr 1783
Haven't you paid attention to what they did to IBM with the Windows pricing and development info?
I was really surprised how this particular issue was reported in the press. I read (and heard on NPR) several acounts about how MS raised Windows pricing to IBM. But only one account noted that this was when IBM and Microsoft were (A) going through their "divorce" and IBM had been getting a really low price since they had contributed to that version of Windows development and (B) the raised price was for a newer version of Windows that IBM hadn't contributed dev effort to. In other words, all the news reports except for one were horribly slanted against MS. I was really suprised by this, especially on NPR, but then the story was immediately followed by one of their "sponsor" notices (these things are almost commercials these days) and it was for Sun Microsystems. One of those things that makes you go hmmm...
why would they wanna connect their Palm Pilots to AOL rather than their OWN server?
because most people dont have the time, desire, and/or ability to run their OWN servers. hell even many people who would have the time/ability probably wouldnt just because having someone else do it is so much more convienent. it's really all very simple if you think about it.
--
This could be way out of hand, but, hey, thats never stopped me before:
3 posts.
1 sort of pro m$
1 sort of anti mozilla
1 other
Hmmmm . . . probably my paranoia . . .
These are important points you raise. Sun should be confronted with them. OTOH, the problem with MS-bashing is not theat it is too vehement. On the contrary, people tend to confuse the crapiness of their products with other aspects of their business. In fact, very few people appreciate the dangerous control that MSFT has attained. Maximum penalties levied in the court case will help a little, but clearly the public needs to be more informed about this bad situation.
These are important points you raise. Sun should be confronted with them. OTOH, the problem with MS-bashing is not that it is too vehement. On the contrary, people tend to confuse the crapiness of their products with other aspects of their business. In fact, very few people appreciate the dangerous control that MSFT has attained. Maximum penalties levied in the court case will help a little, but clearly the public needs to be more informed about this bad situation.
Java is the week link
Just think how many times we have recently heard about so and so not using java-OS for net-puters, handheld devices, palmtops, etc?
I don't think that a java system will ever be a commercial success. And Yes I have written some serios Client Server Jave.
"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix
"SPOOOOOOOOON!" - The Tick, The Tick
Heh...Perhaps we should change the title from "Anonymous Coward" to "Anonymous Moron"? (as opposed to those of us morons who bother to log in :) That would keep the privacy people from ranting that anonymity != cowardice.
(shielding self from flames by people who don't realize I'm being facetious)
I don't throw away my AOL CD's.
I let my gerbil chew them up and use the shavings as bedding.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
As I said, they may use cut-throat tactics, but that is not illegal. If you want a computer that doesn't run windows, you can buy a mac, and now you can buy a computer with linux(and it doesn't even have to be a server). There are several alternatives to MS, just no one wants to use them. That is not MS's fault. Who own's netscape? AOL. Is AOL alive and well? very much so... therefor is netscape alive and well? yup.
I hate Microsoft, but the consumer has alternatives offered to them, and all of those alternatives can do just as much as a MS product can do, peoples just don't want to change. The average consumer -likes- windows and doesn't want something different, MS should not be sued for that.
They do not have a monopoly, they just have a succesful company. Take many European contries for example, in holland windows is $300, due to that schools and most home users use Linux. A monopoly is when you can hike the prices and people -must- pay, like the oil monopoly once had.
Business is a mean, cruel, heartless world that MS has just done very well in.
Hrm, a triangle with an eye in the center... a good Idea, beacuse in theory if they held all your data, they could look at it... (like they'd be useing any kind of encription)
but there is one problem... AOL already *has* that logo
---------------
Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
As for Sun being committed to their bottom line. Surprise: Their obliged to. If not, their management would be slapped with a class action suit faster than they could say "shareholder".
Some companies are better than others in being perceived as "good". But face it, their goal is profit and only profit, from the day of their IPO. Before that, they may have private arrangement regarding other goals, but once they're a publicly held company, any indication from their management that profit isn't their primary comitment, and they are in deep shit.
First, just because Netscape still exists and is owned by another company it does not necessarily follow that they are doing well. If they were doing so well, they might still have a profitable browser business. Unfortunately, Microsoft feared Netscape becoming a platform unto itself, so they did everything they could to sink Netscape's browser. They did pretty well until the browser went open source. They can't touch it directly now. All they can do is hope to proprietize as many protocols and whatnot as possible so that nobody else has access to them. This was all laid out in the Halloween memos.
Secondly, cut-throat tactics can be very illegal if you have a monopoly.
They do not have a monopoly, they just have a succesful company. (...) A monopoly is when you can hike the prices and people -must- pay
Once again, Windows is proprietary. Businesses have to standardize in order to keep their support costs as low as possible. If you want to exchange documents with 90% of the computer-using world, you need to have Microsoft Office. MS Office is only available on Windows and Mac platforms. The Mac platform is too risky because Microsoft can take Office away from them at any time and has threatened to do so in the past if Apple didn't do what they wanted. Businesses can't take that risk if it's not absolutely necessary.
I think the ruling in the DOJ case will confirm that Microsoft has a monopoly. It is due to network effects. They are real. They do exist, no matter what Microsoft's pet economist says. If they didn't have a monopoly, they wouldn't be able to threaten OEMs with higher prices. They wouldn't be able to keep competitors from gaining access to the OEMs, or at least limit their access. They can and do raise prices at will, just not on the retail shelves where it is highly noticeable. They raise the prices to OEMs using secret contracts that nobody else knows any details of.
There are massive barriers to entry for any new OS. The only thing that makes any competition possible at all is people DONATING their time, money, and effort into creating an alternative. That is not a sign of a healthy market. Be actually offered to let OEMs ship BeOS for free if they would just give customers the option of purchasing a machine preinstalled with it. Unfortunately, OEMs are still rather afraid of Microsoft. They can have their prices jacked through the roof if they don't behave. The only reason we see any Linux machines being offered now is because Microsoft can't do anything with the DOJ breathing down its neck. If they (by some miracle) win their case or if the result is another weak agreement, all hell will break loose and Microsoft will once again crack down on everyone who was not kissing their butt the entire time.
The bottom line is that the average computer user really doesn't have much choice since they can't buy preloaded machines from the top ten OEMs out there (only one of which is offering anything other than Windows on a desktop machine). As long as Microsoft is able to keep the OEMs from offering anything else, it will remain this way. Perhaps their grip will be broken when the trial is over. One can only hope. Businesses have virtually no choice, depending on what business they're in. They may be able to run various types of servers, but on the desktop, it's nearly always Microsoft. There is no other option for them because Office is THE standard. Trying to get businesses to switch from one standard to a new one will cause alot of chaos. That's why Microsoft is sitting pretty. People are locked in. It would take a huge influence to move them. Unless Microsoft raises its prices above what the market will bear (which is quite alot due to the costs of switching), their monopoly will stay intact.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
First off, most of these came from pre-"Halloween Documents" e-mails. That's almost 5 years internet time. And much of this sounds like pipe-dreams and wishful thinking.
/., and even here most of it is wrong, spun, or opinion. (..and of course, M$ is evil and in need of a good slaying)
One bad thing--
"Further, AOL plans to morph its ICQ instant messaging software into a desktop-based portal that would use Netscape technology as a browser -- something that could further increase its browser share."
Why, why, why do you take a very good niche product and try to make it everything? That philosophy makes software so large it creates it's own gravity, and it starts to suck. Will they turn WinAmp into a full-blown sound editing environment, with Mp3 support? My confidence in AOL's bidness acumen is diving past zero.
One other point...this was on MSNBC.com. (Yes,I read MSNBC, say what you will, MS knows GUI's) However, in the many stories I have read there (many on comp./int. news) this is by far the most biased. It's not subtle how they portray these companies, and I quote...
" "Our view of AOL is, let's take the interactivity they love and have come to depend on as a necessity in their life and take pieces of it linking it back to AOL and in the process finding new revenue streams per member so we're not only making new money for adding new members but adding devices that get revenue from the members," Pittman said. "
While this may be true, this paints a VERY negative picture of AOL from an "impartial" news source. (which obviously shows MSNBC isn't, making it even more insidious). Let's have a look see at the core of the M$ plan to expoit ppl.
(like MSNBC, the channel, every notice who buys all the ads there? All M$'s partners)
Bottom line, you can't trust any news sources, other than
'''''';;;;;;..... (core vented. meltdown avoided. Good job Homer)
+&x
"That's fuckin' scary! I say execute the bastards! Get them out of the gene pool!"
;)
*CHEER*
*CHEER*
I agree completely! When I first started (circa 286s, we live in a backwards shit-town.. *sigh*)
I at least had the base intelligence to know that if my modem had a 9-pin connector, that it must connect to one of the 9-pins in the back of the pretty box.
I also started running a BBS with no knowledge of what to do, or how. But guess what.. it became pretty popular. I have since lost my records of user feedback, but from a 486/50 with a single 2400 modem as dialin I think that's good.
The way I see it if people can't use their heads for anything other than keeping rain off their necks, they have *NO* business owning a computer at all. Using one, fine. As long as someone with half a brain takes care of the thing.
Sorry. Not just "slashdot readers". Nobody on the consumer-side wants "metered computing".
Call it a dead paradigm if you wish, but when people pay money for goods, they want to OWN something.
That's why marriage is more popular than prostitution.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
You want some insight? Why not write a dozen or so "intentionally" anti-Microsoft slanted articles and see what happens?
.
In the best-case scenario, it could be fun, and give msnbc.com a bunch of sensational hits.
On the other hand, in the worst-case scenario. .
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
AHah good idea.
MS: "AHa! Ms Office for linux!! only a billion dollars."
Linux ppl: "kick ass, new version of tetex is out!"
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
Don't use java for an os, it's silly to write device drivers in java
use java HEAVILY for networked application it is the most productive, fastest and best all around tool for the web
charly
, and the much hyped Vaporware of "Jini".
how exactly is Jini vaporware or do just not know what vaporware is? jini is out and it works, 2 things that make it a bit hard for it to be vaporware. get a clue will you.
Agreed. And if you click on it then they're funding Slashdot. :-)
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
Other headlines:
Experts Announce: Fire is Hot
"Pope is Catholic," Theologian Claims
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Regarding #2 the speed point
remember server side java is jitted
in other words you _distribute_ the code as bytecode, but it always _executes_ as native code once compiled by the JITs..
bottom line: we have more speed, almost a factor of 2, in our servlet implementation that we had with our perl c++ gateway.
That is real life production, not blaMarketing...
java speed is NOT an issue at all on servers, and the good news is we are planning to switch to Linux (from NT, I tell you java is going to help linux BIG TIME).
blaise
It looks like an MSNBC user account. Why did this person not get credited for the story?
-- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"'
Well, if that isn't quite the comparison.
A better comparison would probably be local phone calls. Nearly everyone takes unlimited local calls, though metered is often an option. Except for people that almost never use the phone, it's a great convenience not to have to monitor use, even if you could save a little money on metered.
People are often quite happy to rent rather than to buy, if the financial terms are right. For instance, many people lease cars - and many others have no interest in this, even though it might be more financially sensible. I think it's fair to say that people prefer to own rather than rent, and prefer flat rate to metered, but are willing to consider those options if there's a large financial benefit. Given that metered computing is rarely cheaper for most people (and certainly not slashdotters) than the fixed rates that come up, it's being squished.
If Microsoft offered Office licenses at $10/year or $400 for unlimited use, people would flock to the yearly license.
-- Kate
...and I think I saw on Bloomberg's Monday morning that Qwest tendered, or was thinking about tendering, an offer for USWorst for $44BillUS. Their stock took a hit that day.
sign me up, i don't make that much as an employee doing java...
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
I'll assume from context you really meant "MS knows First Impressions" or something, because brother, they ain't got a clue on GUI's.
I actually PREFER to use FVWM in X to Win95 (except for cut 'n' paste).
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
I'm not rooting for Sun but I do hope MS, Sun and AOL will
become more involved in a struggle which increases the
opportunities for open source to become more of an alternative
for "average" consumers.
AOL's resentment towards MS has been well known for some
time - it goes back to their feeling pressured by MS to use the
IE browser.
The danger is exactly what Sun wants - fat servers and thin
clients, and metered computing in which software is downloaded
and rented. Back to the old mainframe timesharing days -
that is Sun's mentality.
Java is ok, but if it is inceasingly used in this way then it
does pose a far greater threat than MS. We don't need
clients or servers, but end users who are both. The potential
of the internet is nullified if it does not become more like
a peer-to-peer network in every way. In such an environment
open source can thrive. With fat servers and thin clients.
everything is controlled at the server end - some of you
sysadmins may like that, befause it takes control out of the
hands of users. But, it really puts more control in the hands
of fewer and fewer giant multinationals.
AOL is also ok. It provides a needed service for many people.
If open source cannot do the same (it already is with some
portals for Linux), then it will never reach the majority of
users. However, it is also possible for users to move beyond
that especially with Linux. We just need software to help
novices set up web sites and servers, with hands-on help
from nerds who can charge for their services.
We need lots of little centers of activity everywhere, not just
a few big ones.
Sun and AOL are forgetting what PC's are all about. End user
control. People using Windows do have the illusion that they
have control of their own systems, but many are now realizing
that they don't have much control. This is an opportunity for
Linux and other systems to move in. This stragegy by
Sun and AOL will not work so long as people want to control
their own systems and store data on their own systems.
Yes, the internet is nice, but most PC users do a lot more with
their computers - games, business, desktop apps, etc. They
will not be inclined to "rent" software which is downloaded onto
their thin clients with Java because then it will become very
clear that they have absolutely no control.
Anyway, it will take some time for people to free themselves
from MS Office dependency.
In summary, this strategy will only partially work for AOL and
Sun but will hurt MS and make open source (Linux, BSD) look
a lot more attractive to a lot more people.
well, at least we'll be using Unix! :)
Excuse me while I go in the corner and puke my guts out!
Just what we need is the #1 source of idiocy on the internet dominating everything...I mean I'm not fond of Microsoft either, but at least they don't proliferate the net with complete morons...
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GIT d? s: a-- C++++ UL++++ P++ L+++ E- W++ N o-- K- w--- O- M+ V PS+ P
Already the OSS world does a lot of the java advancement:
Kaffe/blackdown (JVM)
jserv/apache (Servlets)
gnujsp (JSP)
EJBoss (EJB)
all are running ahead of the pack... you have nothing to fear from java it is ALREADY in the OSS world, and my feeling is SUN is loosing control to IBM, and IBM is cool with OSS.
This penguin is on caffeine!
pascal
Microsoft will win out in the end for one, good reason: They control time itself. Yes! its true. Whenever you copy files, etc., time slows down. First it reports that copying the file will take 15 minutes, then within 5 seconds, it is halved, again and again. By the end, the last 5 seconds takes two minutes or more!
How can anyone compete against a copany that controls time?
BitPoet
If AOL were to switch to the Netscape Raptor browser, which it can opt to do in December 1999 under its contract with Microsoft, Microsoft's browser share would immediately drop from 50 percent to about 35 percent, and Netscape's would jump from 50 to 65 percent.
Come over to the light side, Scott!
The article is written by Microsoft minions!
What do you expect it to say! You never bite
the hand that feeds you!
It is an article. It has words in it. Any actual
value is buried in the noise. (sigh)
Newbies just coming online now already might not be able to see the distinction between AOL and the rest of the web --- so I can definitely see someone buying a machine because they heard of AOL and all that instant messaging fun (!) from other newbie friends. And the AOL marketing will probably play off that.
=moJ
- - - - - -
swagmag.com
It's not the AOL-Netscape-Sun triune anymore. It's AOL and Sun, since there is no Netscape Corporation.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
with java as the os, while waiting for it to load, you can mow the lawn, do the dishes, clean the bathroom, watch little johnnie's stupid soccer game....
"AOL sees the Net becoming the platform on which everything else runs. [...] In AOL's worldview, handheld devices such as cell phones, pagers and Palm Pilots will all depend on that platform. And that platform will be AOL."
"Everything will be written in Sun's Java programming language."
So much for platform independence. Remember: Java is not platform independent - Java is a platform. IMO, this deal between the "gods" looks just as hostile as MS. They all want to control the technology (platform and media), that you use for any kind of communication. And if this wasn't enough, AOL wants to control the applications you are running, and the information you receive:
"AOL must become the 'ubiquitous' choice of consumers seeking online info/services to become the main portal to cable/telco networks - hence the 'AOL Anywhere' initiative."
"The goal of the devices and the AOL/PC is the same, according to the Sun executive's e-mail: "to standardize upon the Java platform as their ONLY 'AOL Anywhere' client architecture..."
How is this monopoly different from wintel? AOL produces (and controls?) content and has plans for providing services (as a replacement for applications) and Sun produces hardware (of any kind - not only consumer devices but also network stuff) and the platform (Java, JavaOS, Jini, etc.).
Well, perhaps I'm biased myself, not liking Microsoft's positions and attitudes, but I find it strange that an MSNBC article is the only one favoring Microsoft on Colburn's testimony and AOL's plans. Everyone else was reporting that the judge was openly skeptical of what point MS was trying to make with this issue, and generally not making it sound like MS scored any points.
Eg.: Colburn's memo about dropping IE, which MS tried to make much of. They weren't happy to have Case's response to that memo brought in as well, in which Case basically said that dropping IE wasn't feasible due to repercussions from MS if they did that.
Yes, of course those other companies want to shaft consumers. The difference is not advertising--puhlease! The difference is abuse of monopoly power and _blantantly_ anticompetitive _behavior_. No one should let MSFT off the hook. They had a chance to fool the judge, but they were too clumsy. I bet that judge feels pretty insulted by MSFT _courtroom_ tactics. How will this influence--after all, he is human--his conviction in the inevitable sentencing phase?
Nothing I saw in the exposed plans looks illegal. The problem with MS isn't that they have a monopoly, it's that they use it "to stifle innovation". When WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 were the undisputed winners in their niche, DOJ (and users) didn't care, because they weren't trying to take over desktop printers, banking, and worldwide media. It's OK to corner a market based on better product. It's not OK to corner a market by leveraging a monopoly in another market, regardless of whether your product is of competitive quality.
Besides, how much power would AOL have if they "won"? They would be providing a service based on Open Standards, through third-party telco's, with little proprietary content. What would be the barrier to entry for a better product, with the V.C. available these to support advertising?
On a PII-333 with the Symantec JVM a SSH client written in Java (no assembly assist for the Crypto) can scroll the screen far faster then I can read. I can tell when it GC'es (or maybe when the network loses a packet) because it pauses long enough to make out a few words (my "standard" test is to cat an ~500K /etc/termcap).
Disabling the SSH encryption it timed as faster then the Telnet that came with my Windows box (i.e. receving SSH packets in the clear, doing a CRC, and displaying them was faster in Java then doing even less work in C -- I assume they didn't feel a need to tune for speed, and I did).
On a PPro-180 under FreeBSD the Sun JDK limped along fairly painfully, I could guess how many lines were in eatch SSH "packet". (actually it was a Duel PPro-180, but I dout Java tryed to schedule diffrent threads on diffrent CPUs)
The JVM implmentation makes a huge diffrence, but I would say Java is fast enough for a lot more tasks then people tend to give it credit for.
'nuff said
I'm afraid he's right, guys, at least for the time being. The number one threat to a competitive marketplace right now (not that I agree with the DoJ attacking microsoft) is closed standards. With open standards, anyone can produce Something Better that complies with the norm. With poorly documented standards like Word 7 and various Win32 binary standards, you're stuck using Company X. Which, in this case, is Microsoft.
...not any more. The BIFF5 format is easy enough to download. The OLE SDK stuff (with the OLE Document format, which Word & Excel docs are) is readily available, too.
That several companies offer conversion software for Word Docs should be clue enough.
At least for spreadsheets, is there much market other than Excel (so who cares)?
That's fuckin' scary! I say execute the bastards! Get them out of the gene pool!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Actually, MSNBC has been remarkably balanced in the past, with their articles about Linux and Microsoft. I don't think they're biased because of Microsoft's partial ownership of them, and I'm a naturally distrustful guy.
While I realize that there are other applications that can read .doc files, I think those of you critizing this post are missing the point: In the eyes of the business world, Office is a great suite. And frankly, it is the best office productivity suite I have seen (admittedly, it's the only one I used for a while, so there may be some serious competition on this front that I am not aware of).
This is not an endorsement, it's a simple observation that the business world would pretty much scoff at the Sun/AOL vision, at least for the forseeable future. Admittedly, businesses are farming their IT work out to consultants in droves, and this might seem like the next logical step if the technology was there to do it. But seriously, do you expect this setup to compete with a desktop solution anytime soon, particurily for anyone that wants to use any advanced features of something like office? Hell, a Linux suite stands a better chance, and that's not likely for at least a while. Or at least a locally owned ditributed component architecture that did all the stuff the OMG has been promising with easy off the shelf solutions (Of course, this could be *shudder* com). But over AOL as a service/access provider? get real. Even with "it's getting faster but still slow, but best of all it ain't MicroSoft!" Java. (as an aside, I really wish Java hadn't been quite so hyped. It is here to stay and may in fact help to kill MS, but it was not and still is not quite ready for the prime time, at least as a distributed OS platform for typical joe business user).
Face it, at much as we all hate MS, this is a goofy idea that smells of Scott McNealy's obsession with being the boy who beat up Bill Gates. And whether you want to admit or not, Office is not a horrendous product. It certainly compares well to it's competition (see above caveat). MS's sin was not to create Office, not even with all the bugs in it (I used to use WordPerfect for example, and while a more powerful word processor than MS turd, I cannot say it was any less buggy. Though I do miss the ability to edit the text codes directly). Their sin is to tie us all to their piece of shit OS and trying to dominate every market available and succeding more of the time than they should. They deserve to be hammered. But even if they are broken up into tiny little pieces, Office will be around. Businesses don't have any problem tying their user base to Office. And other than the fact that the current biggest corporate asshole owns it, I can't think of a compelling reason for things to be otherwise. OK, so COM is a crappy component architecture. From a business perspective however,it's just dandy to support something like Office, so who cares?
BTW, I'm a different AC than the one you responded to. And if I read to much into your statements, sorry. But *.doc and *.xls are likely to be the flavor of choice for good long while, particurily served on an Office platter.
The day I can buy software with a title deed I'll kiss the ground.
Really an economy can't go on if it stops itself.
DUH!
Plus at this point it should be quite clear that a company that controls the market and its consumers globally where they have nowhere to put the money since it is global only smacks of corporate onanism. Totally not the real thing. Look at it like this a snake that bites everything it owns including itself. Globalization is going to cause economies to literally cancel each other if only few control the world leaving an equilibrium that will kill everything. On the other hand globalization with small businesses is going to open up many opportunities.
But that means at least partial knowledge of the things you work with.
We really have to get rid of guys like this Swami DesktopComputingIsDeadanananananda.
As for marriage/prostitution, there's a lot of ownership themes in pimping. Why do you think it's illegal? It's so women should feel guilty and dirty which makes them hardly a voice in the system and so only the pimps make the money off the women's work.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
If you are referring to the picture at the top of the article, you might notice that the three people at the bottom (with swords?) have the symbols of the Trio on their backs. That would make MS the 3-headed monster. I made the same mistake on immediate examination.
However, the fact that they were making plans, and had ideas on how to implement them, gives weight to the idea that the market isn't as closed as they would have us believe. That article makes me think that all these companies really want is to replace MS, not make the environment better for users.
In the end, that is (should be) the goal of anti-trust legislation: guarantee competition. If MS acted to prevent these companies from replacing their OS as dominant, that's one thing. If, on the other hand, these companies were just too wary of the development and advertising costs associated with entering the fray, why are we spending money on them? I don't remember seeing AOL or Sun or Netscape releasing an OS, MS drastically cutting the price of Winblows, and raising it back after the other died.
Basically, this trial is about the other companies being upset that MS is better at pulling the wool over the consumers' eyes than thay are. I think Netscape is a greatly superior browser (my employers, unfortunately, don't), but MS has greatly superior advertising (in that it exists), and the great majority of our fellow countrypeople are more swayed by advertising than quality.
ohhhh.... bad post.... long.....
> Who are the unwashed hordes of barbarians at the
> gate who eventually win... the goths, visigoths,
> vandals and franks?
...us hairy Unix folk, of course. Don't tell me that the sysadmin next door with the two-foot beard, sandals and braided hair doesn't look JUST LIKE SAID BARBARIANS...
...although personally I look like a strung-out accountant with the goatee, rockports and slicked-back hair...
---
DNA just wants to be free...
It is hard to imagine worse than MSFT. You will have to show a lot more than that to claim that AOL could be as bad as, let alone worse than, MSFT.
we would have been hearing how cars provided competition for Standard Oil because these could also run on oil provided by other vendors (even though none had relevant market share or production capacity at the time, so no choice was available to buyers).
Furthermore, we would have heard that the alleged monopoly on oil could fall apart at any moment, as a multitude of people were digging in the earth with the purpose of striking oil.
And lastly, they would have told that oil was about to be overtaken by nuclear and solar energy (and one shouldn't bother about questioning whether these can provide energy for cars) so, despite Standard Oil's market share, the company wouldn't have market power at the moment of investigation.
-cjr
Linux? Hell, I'd rather use anything than something produced by AOL. Are you sick and tired of hearing "You've got mail" in every movie you go see? Imagine hearing it every time you boot up your computer!!
I know this is just Microsoft's spin, but if it has any basis in truth whatsoever, I'm a little worried. I'd definitely rather have Microsoft take over the world than AOL.
-
-
It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out.
Posted by stodge:
Me too. I have neither seen nor tried anything to make me want to put any faith in Java. As far as I'm concerned, Java is still only an Internet/web page language, and that's where it should stay.
It is hypocritical though. They might complain about Microsoft's dominance (monopoly) of the PC market, yet they want to create and control a market with only one OS on even more types of computers. Hmmmmmmmmm
Imagine, Direct X under Java? *shudder*
If they use a native code compiler then it would run decently fast and on a 200mhz strongarm or whatever it shouldn't be that bad. No slower than Win98 on a PII 450 (like mine hehehehe, Win98 is still slow as shit)
---Got Coffee?---
As if MSFT wouldn't censor? What is AOL's justification? Inevitably, the buck. But nobody outdoes MSFT on ruthless buckmaking? What about MSFT "filtering out" bluemountain greeting cards? What about the initial Win95 installation routines to report hard drive contents back to MSFT? What about Office document ID's? What about stealing technology from Stac, Apple, etc? What about...it's a bit depressing... I don't even use that crap, it's plain to see AOL would have to try hard to beat the dirty MSFT track record.
MSFT tried to pull one over on a judge by faking eveidence in a federal courtroom. And you are defending them and their practices. Why would anyone not corrupt or stupid believe your claims?
It is this fact that AOL is intending to capitalize on.
A great portion of the AOL users have no desire/need for quake, spread sheets, etc., and would be likely consumers of such a device. It is not intended to sway geeks, or even the average PC user. Simply people who have no use for computers other than email, chat rooms, and web browsing.
.DOC and .XLS are the language of buisness. The only one who speaks .DOC is MS. All the browser/java action is going to get you is sports stocks and porn.
if they use OSS themselves. Easy to just quit the projects and go on strike.
:P
The triumvirus taking over.
Some people might hate M$, but a heck of a lot of them have no love for monopolies in general. The second they try to pull a fast one is the second we stay the fuck away.
Read that as:
No DivX like BS
No rental software
No user only gets browsing, ISPs get serving, email, ftp, and such.
No Pisswatered down versions of the Open Licenses.
If we can take out M$ we can take our the three new boneheads as well.
Not that I believe the report.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
Octavian was the adopted son.
Octavian killed Antony.
Even if you failed Latin, you should have at least gleamed that much.
Nice URL-- looks like it's reflected through a hotmail machine... (209.185.130.250) ?
Correct URL is http://www.msnbc.com/news/280218.asp
Well, Rob, you'll need a new icon for the new Holy Trinity here. Who knows, in five years maybe they'll be the new MSFT. The market seems to need a 500-pound gorilla, and once Redmond is out of the picture someone else will take its place. Sounds like these folks want to be that.
This year, they're the good guys. Next year maybe they'll be the bad guys. Ah well, if we didn't want excitement and constant change, we wouldn't be working in technology, eh?
AOL.. wow.. that'd be so much worse. A company who got into trouble by using questionable means to "bill" their customers. The absolute worst online service. I don't like Steve Case or Scott McNealy any more than I like Gates. They all seem dirty.
ahh.. incoherence... so nice. : )
I would much rather use Linux than a "Java-based OS."
That makes me cringe. How would that be any more efficient?
Linux: Because rebooting is for adding new hardware.
everyone has dreams, and bill gates want to control all information and send everyone a bill each month for the priveledge (this is ms' stated goal).
so, the DOJ and consumers bitch about more choice. i want choice, too. we'll see what happens.
i repeat: ms is not on trial for "what might happen in the future". they are on trial for their allegedly illegal practices. and they might be punished for them.
aol, netscape and sun can dream all they want. hell, i have dreams about being bill clinton and having a mcdonald's menu panel mounted on my desk. most of the icons have interns heads on them. go figure.
First thought: This'll be job security for the antitrust people at the DOJ and SEC.
Second: Remember that scene in the Oliver Stone film _Salvador_, with James Woods? The photojournalist (Woods' character) witnesses the "good" revolutionaries about to shoot captured national troops -- the oppressors -- in a combination of revenge and expedience, and he warns them (futilely) "You'll become like they are! You'll become like they are!"
If it all comes true, I hope I've switched to *ix by then. I *like* AOL, but I'll change my tune quickly if they start dictating how software's gonna work under the hood.
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
woohoo! Trade one power monger for another! Thats what I like. The more I hear of this trial the more it seems like it's just people upset at MS's success. I hate MS with a passion but they do not have a monopoly on anything, Netscape, opera, and lynx are alive and well as is linux, macos, beos, bsd's, and UNIX ... am I mistaken or isn't a monopoly cornering the market? They may use cutthroat tactics, but since when do you have to be nice in business? I think it is just whining companies who don't have the balls to compete with MS so are trying to sue them.
This will benefit no one but another power monger.
After Caesar the tyrant was murdured, a
civil war ensued and government was seized
by the triumvirate of Lepidus, Marc Antony
and Octavian (soon to rename himself
Augustus).
We all know what happens afterwards.
None of them are trustworthy.
Unless someone has something that comprehensivly attacks MS in all the major sectors (consumer, business desktop, server), you're not going to hurt MS that much. That hardest is probably the business desktop.
I know certain aspects of my sentiments have been said, but I must say them...
:), but while this may not accurately reflect how ancient emperors really were, I hope my point about MS still comes across. They aren't here to deliver crappy products, it just happens in the midst of not caring if they deliver good products over their market share. Now, our favorite Tripant is different. MS is a bit sick, a bit misguided, and unfortunatly it's never been brought to a sanitarium. AOL is pure evil. Netscape has been (essentially) what MS would perhaps be if it were the underdog, aside from certain marketing aspects (and intelligence with perspective). Sun, as a company, is irrelevant to me, so I won't comment on them. But under the oppression of an empire (figuratively speaking), we'll find two types of people. One usually succeeds, one doesn't.
Microsoft is like some ancient emperor. MS wants to get control of all the 'kingdoms' in the area. It doesn't want to make their citizens (both old an new) live in horrible conditions, but it also isn't the goal to make them live in eden-like spleandor. This means that the citizens (for the most part; not a universal rule) can still live their day-to-day lives even if everything about the empire they live in is trash. While most surely any sane person would want to leave, it's akin to wanting to walk out on a bad movie instead of escape chinese water torture.
I'm really not a history person (despite taking it
Type A: Martin Luther King's. The Ghandis. These people don't often succeed, but when they do, they do so while being completely 100% in the right (subjectively) and changing the world for the better. This would be Linux, for the most part. Passive-Resistance. Peace, man.
Type B: The Angry Mob. In the empire analogy, these guys would consist mostly of the nobles who probably still have it pretty good. What do they do? They find the nearest town that's a main part of the empire (as in, a town of the empire before it decided taking over their neighbor's lands was fun for the whole family) and they torch the houses of all the citizens. Althought they feel better, the rest of the citizens of the empire suddenly get the mistaken impression that the empire is good because of the terrorists they now have to compare to. Instead of creating a new empire of 'nobles', they end up getting caught and in jail. Nothing is accomplished, except perhaps a bit of thankfulness on the citizens part that the empire has locked a few cruel people in the dungeons, and a perspective that it could be worse... they could be under the hands of those freaks.
Goliath One, meet Goliaths Two through Three.
Editors have had autosave since before most people reading
You can do that now in Emacs. Keep your master sources in a networked CVS repository and edit from a checked out version. Emacs will transparently handle checkouts/commits. As a bonus, you can use secure/non-Big Brother enabled encryption via ssh to keep the network traffic private. Sun/AOL are U.S.-based companies. They will not be permitted to field anything with secure encryption.
Novel is re-writing (has re-written?) large chunks of their Network into Java. It starts up a bit slowly, but once it's running it seems to be fairly fast. (I've heard that the garbage collector never actually returns everything to the system, so eventually it should crash [40 days?], but if you can down it once in awhile that shouldn't be a problem. Just need some way to unload/reload at some point when the load is v. light.)
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I received a presentation from Novell a year ago, discussing this very concept. It's been slightly modified. The original was: Sun for the platform and Java, Oracle for the software technology to store all the data, Netscape for the the end-user interface, and Novell for the directory services and access control.
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
(B) the raised price was for a newer version of Windows that IBM hadn't contributed dev effort to.
(A)What newer version of Windows hasn't included all the older crap (that IBM apparently helped to create)?
(B) Why justification does Microsoft have for charging IBM 2-3 times as much for Windows as other OEMs just because a new version with some extra "features" was released?
(C) How do you explain the threats by Joachim Kempin that if IBM didn't stop marketing and/or offering OS/2, they would have to pay alot more for Windows.
(D) How do you explain the deal that Kempin tried to arrange that involved having IBM stop shipping SmartSuite for six months to a year in order to receive a discount on Windows (which would have still had IBM paying more than any other major OEM).
If the press reports seemed to be slanted against Microsoft, it's because Microsoft earned it. They were trying to use their prices to prevent IBM from competing. That's illegal if you have a monopoly, which seems to be pretty well established in court now. I believe there was even an email from a Microsoft exec to an IBM exec that stated that IBM can have Compaq's deal when IBM stops competing. Just another one of those damning emails that show exactly what Microsoft's intentions were.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Perhaps this is just a little market research. Maybe they're trying to see how many /.'ers (primarily Linux users) are interested in MS Office. They want to see how many more poor bastards they can steal 500 bucks from with a Linux port of MS Office.
Hey all -- I'm the drone who wrote this story for MSNBC. I've really enjoyed the comments here -- you guys have some great insights. I especially liked the post about Ceaser and his slayers... very clever. Of course, no one noticed that the companies got it all wrong: Sun should have been Apollo, not AOL... guess Steve Case never read Bulfinch's
Anyway, for the record, when I first took the job at MSNBC, I shared all the concerns voiced here about the relationship between the news organization and Microsoft. I mean, I had just been covering the MS trial for the Mercury News, so it wasn't like I was ignorant about how MS goes about its business.
But I was very pleased to discover that MS has NEVER tried to influence the editorial content of the site. I know its hard to believe. But I know I personally never would have taken the job if I thought otherwise. Now, three months later, I am pleased to say my editors are tickled pink when I (or my colleagues) are tough on MS, and have never told me to slant my news in ANY way, let alone pro-MS.
Anyway, this story was really interesting to dig into. AOL/Sun/Netscape really look like they are trying to out-Microsoft Microsoft, in that they want to establish and control the standards, which has always been MS' game.
You expect that of AOL, but what puzzles me more than anything else is Sun's involvement. They have been pretty big open-standard proponents in the past and I'm a little surprised to see them in this role. Thoughts anyone?
Anyway, thanks for all the insight!
-Elliot
It's so funny seeing these little pro-MSFT posts. A funny thing to do would be to do a taxonomy, especially because the posts are rather predictable.
Here's one entry: the "Non-MS fan" post. Yep, these posts are easy to spot. "By no means am I a fan of MS...", "far be it for me to be defending MS...". Then of course they go on to be rather dumb, saying how business is business, MSFT is really no different, etc.
teehee
I mean I'm not fond
of Microsoft either, but at least they don't proliferate the net with complete morons..
No. They just have a different name for them: MCP and MCSE.
"Would you like to try some Microsoft TCP/IP. Much
better than that other Brand X TCP/IP."
Yes, but do bears shit in the woods?
ATM I know a total of jack about programming, and thanks to my cursed Winmodem I have to use Win on both my machines (the other is a 486, no room for Linux).. but I still on occasion toss up ROM 2.4, Apache, an FTP server, and a couple others. It doesn't take much in the way of brains to run a server. (no comments please :P )
Even my mother, who is afraid of her PC, can and has done it.
In short, anyone can run a server of some sort for whatever reason, you cannot just assume that the average 'user' won't/can't know how and hasn't the desire to ITFP.
End of story. Dialup? Oh yeah um dial an internet connection. Like you know ppp-on-demand or kppp or X-ISP, or others. Who needs ISP centric dialers?
and if AOL wants to keep us out we'll gladly take their customers with us.
This is just more Micros~1 FUD. We're already there, just need to remind every one else we've won.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
Why not use something like one of the covers for Michael Moorcock's series for the Eternal Champion. And make sure to put the Chaos symbol on the swords too.
Will in Seattle
AOL - overlap - makes a good symbol
Will in Seattle
Ok, if I read this correctly (and I admit I ran through it only once) then there are a few things that I think could hinder this plan.
:-)
1. This seems unfeasible(sp?) until there is inexpensive and common high/ultrahigh-bandwidth connections to peoples homes. Perhaps AOL wants to buy Qwest?
2. Is a JVM system really fast enough now to work as a real OS or even application on its own?
3. Somehow it seems to me that using the net as a giant application server is a very good way to both reduce security both on the server end (cracker modifies the Java code? BOOM) and in the data stream (we would want uber-encryption on this data, and it is still decoded on the server side, returning to my previous point).
4. Who would run the massively high-speed computers to do all this processing? I would think that serving apps for x number of net users, combined with whatever encryption is needed on the data would slow most computers (I mean even SMP servers and clusters) to a crawl. And if you limit the number of connections to each server, what happens if there is a surge in users and the servers are overloaded? Can you say lawsuit?
5. The 'net, even though it is designed to be redundant, occasionally loses connection with parts of itself. How would this be handled? For those on modem access, what if you are suddenly disconnected after typing 9 pages of a term paper? Are there accounts on these servers in which your abandoned document is saved, or does it just expire as soon as the connection times out?
Tom Byrum
Anyone else notice the Office 2000 ads now running on our very own /.? I don't know how those morons down at M$ marketing expect to garner any revenue from advertising their newest piece of uberbloatware on a den of the resistance. It's their money, tho; if they want to assist in Linux-based Slash development (and the food which goes on Rob's plate), then that's fine by me. I just think that if the world had a couple fewer idiots, we all would be better off.
-josh
Aren't you dead?
- Netscape: Ok, I like their browser better than IE, but it's still huge and buggy. I think JWZ made the most cogent remarks on how life at NS is these days.
- Sun: Nice hardware, for some time. Lately however, what have they given us? Java (*shudder*), and the much hyped Vaporware of "Jini". Sun ain't the friendly gang of fellers some in the open source community would like them to be, by a long shot.
- AOL: Don't even get me started. They ARE Microsoft, as far as I can tell. They've been offering simplified garbage for idiots from day one, and it remains a mystery how they've even survived, let alone gained the market share they have. I've always thought of AOL's success in the same category as rains of fish and crop circles. It seems to happen, but no one knows why.
The basic questions are:A) How the hell are these three going to create the next consumer platform? and
B) Why would we want to substitute M$ crap with America OnNetSunScapeLine's crap?
----------------------
There is no K5 cabal.
I am not the real rusty.
Microsoft is far from being perfect, however, I would rather deal with them, then this Triumvirate. Netscape was once a brilliant start-up, now they're simply part of AOL, who is probably second to MS on the most hated list. They scored points with the community with the Mozilla Open Source project, but where has that goine? Sun has produced some really cool stuff, but where is their true commitment? Their own bottom line.
I can see far worse things coming out of this alliance than we could dream of happening with MS. This may be paranoid, but I can see it being illegal for anyone who isn't licensed to own a device that can do much more than e-mail or web browse. It'll be impossible to sit down at one machine and do everything. With stuff like this and the Apple buyout rumors, I think we're getting closer than we may think to the evil mega-corps such as depicted by 1984/Blade Runner.
How scary is the thought of McMicroAOLExxonDisneySoftInc.gov (Or whatever combinations of current corps scare you the most)??
As the article mentions (about 3/4 the way down... gee, is this a biased article?), the AOL-Sun Internet Anywhere concept isn't a direct threat on Microsoft's operating system monopoly. So you can use your Java-based cell phone to check your AOL email by sometime next year -- is that going to replace the Windoze box you have on your desk at work? Nope. Not by a long shot.
The focus of the anti-trust trial (which gets very little fanfare in this article) is whether Microsoft currently has a monopoly over operating systems, and whether they use that monopoly maliciously. Frankly, this is just smoke up the public's ass, trying to cloud the issue.
-- Mid
Seriously, Netscape, while corporate, I could trust. Sun, I could trust.
AOL I would not trust in a million years to treat the net properly, simply because they are an arrogant, clueless conglomorate of arrogant, clueless nincompoops. Everything that AOL has taken over they have, effectively, destroyed.
I'd rather have Microsoft in charge of the internet, than AOL (though, chances are neither will anyways).
Harry
In a word, nothing. (BTW, read the _whole_ article. It becomes easier to not hear B. Gates' voice reading it as you go along.)
It is a truely desperate effort on Microsoft's part to use this kind of material as a defense. It could backfire on them. These three companies are only going through with these deals because of Microsoft's dominance. And in the end, their plans could amount to nothing more than pipe dreams.
Most of the quoted documents were apparently written by Sun. I am a Java advocate, but I'll be the first to tell you that Sun inappropriately likes to see their plight on a mythic scale. I equate some of their comments to those chain-letter type of e-mails that run around the internet comparing MS to a dragon, or a car, or a giant spider, etc.. When I was an OS/2 user (duck) I used to see these types of e-mails all the time. And we OS/2 users always held onto the belief that some day our OS would beat the evil MS. We knew it wasn't true, but that's what faith is all about.
Alot of the triad's plans sound similarly dream-like. I do think that Java will become more wide-spread but you have to have a pretty faithful imagination to think it will dominate the desktop. (Nothing would please me more but I still have a few OS/2 pains where those muscles are.) There other plans are just that. Plans. Add 50 cents and you might be able to buy a cup of coffee. Only time will tell how much they succeed.
Fortunately, the Judge in the trial seems to have a pretty good head on his shoulders. He seems to be able to recognize smoke and mirrors when he sees it. Still, only time will tell if they succeed.
However, if MS does make it through this trial completely unscathed then I don't think the triads plans amount to anything.
MS's "downfall" would have to come from another direction. And I won't hold my breath.
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
because taco's such a good guy...but we have to face the truth which is that there are probably more morons who post on slashdot than there are are AOL. Let's face it -the whole internet is full of stupidity, spam and morons. AOL has its share too but most of the junk is on the regular internet
---
I don't deny Microsoft played dirty to get and keep their OS position, BUT I sincerely believe that a big factor in their success was their approach to developer relations, which was unlike any other computer company ever, and made developing for their platform far cheaper, easier and quicker.
No other company had tried to release so much information for free, or sold their professional dev tools for so little.
I don't mean to defend their business practices, or their quality standards, or even their architecture, but this blind anti-MS sentiment here just smacks of computing newbies.
How many here were trying to develop products for SunOS in the late 80's / early 90's???
FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME A BROWSER IS NOT AN OPERATING SYSTEM!
If a browser is not an os like the doj proved then this testomony is irrelivant. I thought the trial is about microsoft using ilegal and unfair tactics to prevent competition in the OS area. Microsoft is creating a whole entirelly different and non-revilvant area of software and blowing the hype trumpet about it and calling it an operating system and then using this other market as proof that its windows operating system is not a monopoly?????
We have plenty of competition! IS not the sky blue and does not Pepsi make softdrinks!!
Since Scully was the former CEO of pepsico and the former CEO of apple, then we have competition from pepsi. BLA bla bla bla
:-)
Microsoft should just give up and settle. This seems very desperate. IF they actaully win this case on this arguement, I will then switch my computer science major and become a lawyer. Apparently you dont have to be smart to be a lawyer.
so do we want expensive, buggy software or cheezy graphics, lots of ads, and that "you've got mail!" guy
I prefer a number of smaller companies specializing to the needs of the customer instead of trying to get absolute control thier market.
--
Try again. Use the web besides bruising and chaffing (I mean browsing and chatting).
Obviously you're not involved in anything constructive.
Slacker.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
The net is not limited to sports, stocks and porn.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
Last time I checked, Netscape was owned by AOL now.
Microsoft might have been a pack of arseholes,
but i think AOL would be even worse!, they make absolutely nothing of any value apart from their own stuff for their network, for their system.
Frankly if i had to choose, id take microsoft ANYDAY over AOL. I HAVE bought Microsoft products (NO DONT STONE ME!), registered, and NEVER received harassing mail, email, etc etc.
AOL? i dont even know em, diddnt ever visit their site, and have gotten mail, letters, and a blasted CD to join up with them. The day AOL produce something of value is the day ill start thinking of them in a different light, but for now, they can go F**K themselves theyre just another greedy company that want it all now, want to control everything NOW!, and charge through the ass... at least microsoft in recent years have pushed the computer market along, and office 2000 is a pretty damn good product, no more bloat ware, i dont think many would argue with me about office 2000.
Better the devil you know then the devil you dont.
They have got the ISP, the browser, (and Sun),
they just need an OS to bring it all together and make M$ irrelevant.
what should it be, Solaris or Linux?
coward~god
Nothing against the journalist necessarily, but the heart of the matter is MSFT. They need to get busted--bad.
After they get busted, we can worry about the rest, which at the moment is, of course, a matter of idle speculation.
The AOL symbol already looks a lot like that, you know.
ach nevermind. I've been coding too much.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
I can hear them now.
There are black helicopters hovering RIGHT NOW somewhere in California. The DEATH CAMPS all around America are preparing for the NWO.
WE WILL EXTERMINATE MICROSOFT, TO PAVE THE WAY FOR A STRONGER UNITY
The fastest way to create a bond amoung the lower people is to foster a common hatred. The middle and lower classes already have a hatred for the rich. Microsoft == Rich, everyone knows that. They want us to ally ourselves with our champions, AOL-Netscape-Sun, so that they may lead us into a new era!
We must STOP THIS MADNESS!!! STOP THE MADNESS!!!
They have decided that the world has 60 million too many people!! You know who these people are:
Jaques Cousteau, Ted Turner and Henry Kissenger!
They want to KILL 60 million people to fit their plan for america!!!
I swear! WITH BLACK HELICOPTERS!!! Look in the SKY!! CAN'T YOU SEE THEM??? Its the NWO! And I don't mean wrestling!!!!
-- user logs off to take medication now
Its about marketing, and the consumers (as always) will be sold a pile of well marketed crapola. And they will love it!
I find it interesting that this article went into such exceptional detail about the business plans of these 3 companies. (At least the article mentions that Microsoft is the MS in MSNBC).
:-)
Hasn't MS been able to have such excruciating details excluded from public view, in order to protect their business plans?
I don't recall such intimate details of similar MS docs being published. Just excerpts of email, high level plans, etc. Perhaps this a decision by the particular publishers?
I do think the article tried to deliver a resouding "look at all this competition MS has" to the readers. As if some javabox running AOL is gonna run MS out of business. We all know it's actually gonna be linux
The only character missing from this insidious consipracy is ex-borlander and wannabe MS killer, P. Kahn. that would make Bill tremble, eh?
Can't you just see it, 10 years from now, the justice department has Sun/AOL/Netscape on trial for being a monopoly, and crap like this will be brought up...
_______
2B1ASK1