It was my impression that the two sites would become one under the sourceforge banner, with both teams working with each other. We certainly don't want to take any functionality away from folks on either site.
This isn't official, but I think it's pretty close. Robin Miller knows the full story and will probably post.
I didn't say it was illegal (At least, I don't think so:-) but I figuyre the more you know, the better. I'm sure there are a number of people who have excite at home that would want to know what thier isp is doing with thier connection.
So how did I fail to point this out? It was -right after my name- in the post. Or did you not read it? I am indeed a mouthpiece, I never made a statement saying otherwise. You are , yet again, seeing what you want to see to support your misguided pogrom.
I'm not afraid of people hearing what you have to say at all, I mean, anyone with half a brain can read what you have to say and dismiss it. My -job- is to point out that you are wrong, so that those who are seeing your childish rants for the first time understand that and give us the fair chance that we deserve.
Oh yeah, mean ol' VA, they stink! They have been doing nice things for Linux since 1995 out of some sick plan to take over!
Bowie, you just don't seem to get it, at all. There are a -ton- of sites that we have nothing to do with, including LinuxToday, BeOpen, advogato, Kuro5hin and the rest. A near monopoly means that we could prevent other sites from even happening, which, clearly, we could not do. Also, for it to a be a monopoly we would have to have a service that people were forced to use. You are welcome to not use any of the aggregate web sites.
For those of you who don't know, Bowie thinks VA screwed him and "stole" his idea in creating sourceforge and has been whining like a child ever since. In fact VA had been doing hosting for years and sourceforge was a logical extension to that. Just click around on slashdot to learn about poags issues with VA.
I'll agree with you that diversity is a good thing, though, and I for one am glad BeOpen is around.
Actually, we've had a hard timne getting hardware from sun, sgi and the like, they are more in demand for the compile farm than Alpha. Either way, if they want to get us machiens to put on the farm, we'd be pleased to do it.
Hi All, I wanted to note some things for developers interested in using this service. First, since sourceforge only caters to OSS projects, it is limited to OSS only.
I did want to go over the NDA that you have to click through to use the service. Why the NDA? Intel is letting us use IA-64 engineering samples for the compile farm and they don't think that any public benchmarking done on engineering samples is fair. We agreed with them and wanted to see developers get thier hands on a working sample early. You're welcome to disagree, but we wanted to give a heads up to people, so be sure to read the NDA.
Intel has been pretty cool about this, I am pretty happy to see the GPL liberally sprinkled around an Intel legal document.
Some points from the NDA (most of the NDA is Intel covering its butt, limitation of liabilities and such):
In paragraph 3 Intel says the following (and this applies to paragraph 5,8 as well):
"You may not reverse engineer, decompile, license or disassemble portions of any Intel Software provided in object code form."
The only code that is from Intel in object code form is the BIOS and motherboard controller firmware. There is no other object code on the system. The IA-64 Linux kernel is completely open and has been out of NDA and licensed under the GPL since February.
Paragraph 4 is the Benchmarking Clause.
Paragraph 13, this is a tricky thing, they retain the right to receive activity logs of the compile farm, this is so they can verify for Paragraph 4. They are only able to request logs pertaining to the Compile Farm, not any other sections of the site.
Finally we ask for a brief description of the work you want to perform, this is because we (VA/Sourceforge) may have to throttle usage based on project importance. The persons judging this is Eric Sindelar here at VA. We really don't think we'll have to throttle usage, but we want to have the info available to do so if in fact we need to. As of this writing we already have 30 requests to use the service, so it shouldn't be all that necessary.
That is the overview that we've come up with, we hope that this will go a long way in finding out any IA-64 issues that your code may have. This will also be good for checking the IA-64 Linux Kernel out in real world conditions. If you have any other questions, pose them here and we'll answer them, or email me directly
Hey, I just wanted to say that VA has been doing a lot, dedicating a number of it's employees time to the DVD case. (Mine, Don Marti, etc) and covering travel for working with the NY lawyers. Don't think I'm saying that RH's contribution isn't way cool and really great to see, I just wanted to post about what VA has done in response to your question.
That said, you should join EFF if you can, the T-Shirt is nice, but an EFF membership goes a lot farther.
Chris DiBona VA Linux Systems -- Grant Chair, Linux Int. Pres, SVLUG
Re:Why there's no article about /. getting DoS'ed
on
SGI's New Linux Boxes
·
· Score: 3
Hey zico, you know that the VA/Andover merger isn't final until the SEC approves it right? After that you are free to spin conspiracies.
Chris DiBona VA Linux Systems -- Grant Chair, Linux Int. Pres, SVLUG
*bzzzzz* wrong, plutonium is in fact pyrophoric. When exposed to the air, pu can in fact light on fire. This was the cause of a conflagration at rocky flats in 1969 that cost beau coup bucks to clean up.
Chris DiBona -- Grant Chair, Linux Int. Pres, SVLUG
The problem isn't the technology though, the problem is the implementation of it and the way we handle waste. The technology is understood, and when properly administered, safe. The waste, when properly hanedled and such, is a better problem to deal with than the chemicals spewed from oil, coal and shale processing and power generating.
That said, exactly that -has- been a problem here in the US. A good hard look at the entire chain of power generation via nuclear fuels shows a long history of neglect and a head inthe sand mentality when it comes to clean up. Look at hanford and rocky flats. Look at kerr-mcgee and the rest and you'll understand why people are nervous about how we handle this technology.
We've been lucky so far, we haven't have a major meltdown, but don't tell the people downstream from hanford or rocky flats, or downwind from the nevada test site that they were and are being served well by the nuclear industry in this country.
So from this you'd think I was against nuclear power, in fact I think it may be our cleanest choice, but it still needs to be run by adults and not greedy children.
Chris DiBona -- Grant Chair, Linux Int. Pres, SVLUG
From what tony was telling me, the cronjobs are specific to your system (about 14 machines, or more now), so I don't feel that bad about this, he'll probably chime in.
As to you taking twice as much time, imagine how much time you would have spent with no source code. Imagine how "annoying" that will be. Sheeze.
Nobody ripped you off bowie, that's what you keep on forgetting. VA was hosting projects long before you were on the scene. SF was, again, just an extension of that. And we didn't rip System12 off, we're buying Andover.
So you see, we did address your claims , and I'll do it again here: They were groundless.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems -- Grant Chair, Linux Int. Pres, SVLUG
Using SSL and SSH means that the site is being run in a secure manner. If you don't think that's true, you are welcome to download the SF code and set your own, insecure version of SF up, becuase SF will not change this aspect of it's administration.
You want a hassle? How about having machines crashing due to people cracking them. That's a hassle. I know that SSH isn't always the best of utilities, but it's the best we have right now.
You are better off learning to use ssh and scp than continuing to use insecure, cleartext, tools. If you don't agree with me now, that's fine, you will after you get hacked a few times.
Chris DiBona VA Linux Systems -- Grant Chair, Linux Int. Pres, SVLUG
First off, please read Mark Stone's post above regarding the web/asp issues and the gpl, they are -very- important. This represents one of the biggest problems for us (by us I mean all of us) right now. That said, we do releases based on the gpl every couple of months, so I'm fine with that.
While I understand the frustration the AC felt with the patch and documentation systems (more on this later) the AC should realize that when a group does work on an open souce project many people choose to go the route of tarballs every few months. You may not like this method, I don't. I asked myself last week why the cvs tree wasn't public, and while I did not agree with the SF team, the fact is, since they have tarballs coming out often (and I tell you, every two or three months is a completely reasonable interval) I'm not going to tell them how to run thier project. Any more than I would tell mandrake or raster how to run enlightenment.
It sounds awful, and counter intuitive, but many of the OSS worlds best projects are run with an iron fist without external cvs servers. Not that I wish to equate SF with the importance of the Kernel, but when was the last time anyone saw a cvs server from Linus?
Now, the patches and the rest, I'll take a look at what's up and see that they pay greater attention to them, but again, a few procedural mistakes in the early stages of an OSS project is common and forgivable.
So what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is, if SF is only released every three months, and if they choose to completely ignore outside help, that's fine, that's a choice they are making. I don't think it's the most efficient, but it's thier choice to make and I'm not going to interfere with how they practice what so many others don't even have the courage to preach.
One last thing, I can't stress enough the importance of Mark's post. IF you didn't read it , you should. The GPL as written basically allows people to write an ASP like SF and put it out under the GPL. At that point, another person can take the code and set up thier own public SF, which is fine, but any changes they make don't have to be redisributed, which is not. This is a -big- problem, and if the GPL is not fixed, there will need to be a new licence made to address it. We'd rather just use a GPL that covers this contingincy. I'm of the opinion that a clause in the next version of the GPL that says that "public distribution as defined includes use on a public web site" thereby introducing the redistribution requirements for such uses, but I'm not sure that this sort of language will work to promote GPL'd software in the right way.
Anyhow, any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Chris DiBona VA Linux Systems -- Grant Chair, Linux Int. Pres, SVLUG
Uh, did you read the post itself? I was talking about Happy penguin. Duh. You spend so much time and trouble being angry that you seem sorta nutty.
You really need to chill! (or, in your terms, squat)
Also, System12 wasn't even on the radar much less a "threat" to SF. Anyhow, who -cares- if someone competes with SF, it just makes Tony and the boys work harder. Anyhow, you didn't come up with the concept of hosting, bucko, we've been doing it (and a lot of others have been too) for years before you were on the scene, we just did a good job of it. Wacky Concept, that.
Chris DiBona VA Linux Systems -- Grant Chair, Linux Int. Pres, SVLUG
VA Media Monopoly? How is this possible when the SEC hasn't even finished reviewing the merge? The S-4 Was only filed last week. I thought I'd point that out. You are welcome to your opinions on the rest though.
Also, if you look at what this post is about, I have to say I'm very proud of what VA has done, and I'm proud of my part in this. I mean, we rescued a site that was liked by a bunch of people with no strings attached.
And before you say things like "owned and controlled" you should take a look at the terms of service and the rest on sourceforge, and maybe you should read the GPL too, we don't own anyone's software. We just want to provide the real developers in the community with the resources they need to succeed. The GPL prevents that sort of thing from happening, I really don't think you understand the licence at all.
Chris DiBona VA Linux Systems -- Grant Chair, Linux Int. Pres, SVLUG
How exactly are we threatening? Did we repeal the GPL? I wish people woul think through this stuff before they post it, the only danger to the GPL is people not understanding how it works.
If VA, RH, Caldera and the rest disappear tomorrow, Linux won't stop existing. I happen to belong to the school of thought that more companies who pay to have people code full time, the better.
That said, I don't like the Asynchrony approach to this, but I welcome thier trying out a newish approach.
Chris DiBona VA Linux Systems -- Grant Chair, Linux Int. Pres, SVLUG
Slashdot Mirror
This isn't official, but I think it's pretty close. Robin Miller knows the full story and will probably post.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
I'm not afraid of people hearing what you have to say at all, I mean, anyone with half a brain can read what you have to say and dismiss it. My -job- is to point out that you are wrong, so that those who are seeing your childish rants for the first time understand that and give us the fair chance that we deserve.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
(hey, that's how I sign -every- post!)
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Bowie, you just don't seem to get it, at all. There are a -ton- of sites that we have nothing to do with, including LinuxToday, BeOpen, advogato, Kuro5hin and the rest. A near monopoly means that we could prevent other sites from even happening, which, clearly, we could not do. Also, for it to a be a monopoly we would have to have a service that people were forced to use. You are welcome to not use any of the aggregate web sites.
For those of you who don't know, Bowie thinks VA screwed him and "stole" his idea in creating sourceforge and has been whining like a child ever since. In fact VA had been doing hosting for years and sourceforge was a logical extension to that. Just click around on slashdot to learn about poags issues with VA.
I'll agree with you that diversity is a good thing, though, and I for one am glad BeOpen is around.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
I did want to go over the NDA that you have to click through to use the service. Why the NDA? Intel is letting us use IA-64 engineering samples for the compile farm and they don't think that any public benchmarking done on engineering samples is fair. We agreed with them and wanted to see developers get thier hands on a working sample early. You're welcome to disagree, but we wanted to give a heads up to people, so be sure to read the NDA.
Intel has been pretty cool about this, I am pretty happy to see the GPL liberally sprinkled around an Intel legal document.
Some points from the NDA (most of the NDA is Intel covering its butt, limitation of liabilities and such):
In paragraph 3 Intel says the following (and this applies to paragraph 5,8 as well):
- "You may not reverse engineer, decompile, license or disassemble portions of any Intel Software provided in object code form."
Paragraph 4 is the Benchmarking Clause.The only code that is from Intel in object code form is the BIOS and motherboard controller firmware. There is no other object code on the system. The IA-64 Linux kernel is completely open and has been out of NDA and licensed under the GPL since February.
Paragraph 13, this is a tricky thing, they retain the right to receive activity logs of the compile farm, this is so they can verify for Paragraph 4. They are only able to request logs pertaining to the Compile Farm, not any other sections of the site.
Finally we ask for a brief description of the work you want to perform, this is because we (VA/Sourceforge) may have to throttle usage based on project importance. The persons judging this is Eric Sindelar here at VA. We really don't think we'll have to throttle usage, but we want to have the info available to do so if in fact we need to. As of this writing we already have 30 requests to use the service, so it shouldn't be all that necessary.
That is the overview that we've come up with, we hope that this will go a long way in finding out any IA-64 issues that your code may have. This will also be good for checking the IA-64 Linux Kernel out in real world conditions. If you have any other questions, pose them here and we'll answer them, or email me directly
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
That said, you should join EFF if you can, the T-Shirt is nice, but an EFF membership goes a lot farther.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris DiBona VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris DiBona
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
That said, exactly that -has- been a problem here in the US. A good hard look at the entire chain of power generation via nuclear fuels shows a long history of neglect and a head inthe sand mentality when it comes to clean up. Look at hanford and rocky flats. Look at kerr-mcgee and the rest and you'll understand why people are nervous about how we handle this technology.
We've been lucky so far, we haven't have a major meltdown, but don't tell the people downstream from hanford or rocky flats, or downwind from the nevada test site that they were and are being served well by the nuclear industry in this country.
So from this you'd think I was against nuclear power, in fact I think it may be our cleanest choice, but it still needs to be run by adults and not greedy children.
Chris DiBona
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
As to you taking twice as much time, imagine how much time you would have spent with no source code. Imagine how "annoying" that will be. Sheeze.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
So you see, we did address your claims , and I'll do it again here: They were groundless.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
You want a hassle? How about having machines crashing due to people cracking them. That's a hassle. I know that SSH isn't always the best of utilities, but it's the best we have right now.
You are better off learning to use ssh and scp than continuing to use insecure, cleartext, tools. If you don't agree with me now, that's fine, you will after you get hacked a few times.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
First off, please read Mark Stone's post above regarding the web/asp issues and the gpl, they are -very- important. This represents one of the biggest problems for us (by us I mean all of us) right now. That said, we do releases based on the gpl every couple of months, so I'm fine with that.
While I understand the frustration the AC felt with the patch and documentation systems (more on this later) the AC should realize that when a group does work on an open souce project many people choose to go the route of tarballs every few months. You may not like this method, I don't. I asked myself last week why the cvs tree wasn't public, and while I did not agree with the SF team, the fact is, since they have tarballs coming out often (and I tell you, every two or three months is a completely reasonable interval) I'm not going to tell them how to run thier project. Any more than I would tell mandrake or raster how to run enlightenment.
It sounds awful, and counter intuitive, but many of the OSS worlds best projects are run with an iron fist without external cvs servers. Not that I wish to equate SF with the importance of the Kernel, but when was the last time anyone saw a cvs server from Linus?
Now, the patches and the rest, I'll take a look at what's up and see that they pay greater attention to them, but again, a few procedural mistakes in the early stages of an OSS project is common and forgivable.
So what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is, if SF is only released every three months, and if they choose to completely ignore outside help, that's fine, that's a choice they are making. I don't think it's the most efficient, but it's thier choice to make and I'm not going to interfere with how they practice what so many others don't even have the courage to preach.
Anyhow, if anyone would like to contact me personally about this, please email me at chris@valinux.com (or chris@dibona.com).
One last thing, I can't stress enough the importance of Mark's post. IF you didn't read it , you should. The GPL as written basically allows people to write an ASP like SF and put it out under the GPL. At that point, another person can take the code and set up thier own public SF, which is fine, but any changes they make don't have to be redisributed, which is not. This is a -big- problem, and if the GPL is not fixed, there will need to be a new licence made to address it. We'd rather just use a GPL that covers this contingincy. I'm of the opinion that a clause in the next version of the GPL that says that "public distribution as defined includes use on a public web site" thereby introducing the redistribution requirements for such uses, but I'm not sure that this sort of language will work to promote GPL'd software in the right way.
Anyhow, any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
You really need to chill! (or, in your terms, squat)
Also, System12 wasn't even on the radar much less a "threat" to SF. Anyhow, who -cares- if someone competes with SF, it just makes Tony and the boys work harder. Anyhow, you didn't come up with the concept of hosting, bucko, we've been doing it (and a lot of others have been too) for years before you were on the scene, we just did a good job of it. Wacky Concept, that.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Also, if you look at what this post is about, I have to say I'm very proud of what VA has done, and I'm proud of my part in this. I mean, we rescued a site that was liked by a bunch of people with no strings attached.
And before you say things like "owned and controlled" you should take a look at the terms of service and the rest on sourceforge, and maybe you should read the GPL too, we don't own anyone's software. We just want to provide the real developers in the community with the resources they need to succeed. The GPL prevents that sort of thing from happening, I really don't think you understand the licence at all.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Chris
VA.
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
If VA, RH, Caldera and the rest disappear tomorrow, Linux won't stop existing. I happen to belong to the school of thought that more companies who pay to have people code full time, the better.
That said, I don't like the Asynchrony approach to this, but I welcome thier trying out a newish approach.
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG