I see the AC is still in rant mode, using such elegant counterarguments as "that is just retarded". Hint: the first rule of being in a hole is to stop digging.
Karma is a real thing on slashdot - we're not talking about metaphysics here.
This is comical. I admire people like they guy who stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square, but somehow I don't feel like I'm in his league if I risk my Slashdot karma.
P.S. I'm fully aware of how the karma system here works, but some some reason I'm less afraid of it than truncheons and bullets (let alone tanks!).
We're giving them that hand-over-fist? You'd rather have China stay a third world country?
False dichotomy. Many countries have vastly increased their standard of living without the US transferring it's technological know-how and manufacturing capacity wholesale. I have faith in the Chinese people to figure it out for themselves, but I'm puzzled why you have such a low opinion of their abilities.
People post as Anon for similar reasons as to why people protest while wearing masks in corrupt police states.
They're afraid that jackbooted Slashdotters will break into their homes at night and drag them off, never to be seen again?
If you have something to say, which is a valid, but very unpopular opinion, sure, you can post with your real handle, but then you'll just get bad karma
Oooh, bad karma. Is that anything like the gulag?
I honestly don't know how much courage I have to stand up to jackbooted thugs in a corrupt police state, but I'm incredibly intrepid when it comes to posting unpopular arguments on Slashdot using my "real" name (full disclosure: ebno-10db is not the name on my birth certificate). I even do it at the risk of my life giving karma!
See, here is your problem, you Americans never seem to understand one simple concept: "Mind your own business".
By your own reasoning you don't know how to mind your own business, since (I infer from your post) you're not an American, and you're posting on an American website where American politics are frequently discussed. Unless you're Chinese, then by your own reasoning you really don't know how to mind your own business, since this is about Chinese and American issues.
You missed the point, The difference here is China never pretended to be some FREEEEEEEEEEEEDOM (tm) fighter...
It's ok for China to oppress its own citizens because they never claimed they don't? According to your logic, it's ok to do anything as long as you're not a hypocrite about it.
Snowden just did another interview, more details are coming.
Notice all the people here defending the NSA from Snowden's disclosures? Me neither. If China isn't doing this to its own citizens then they probably have a crash program to catch up. Is getting screwed by our own government in one respect a good reason to let China screw us in other respects?
Let's point fingers at everyone else and ignore the fact that the US is still the worst of them all, combined.
As always, the most inflammatory comments come from AC's. If you're going to make an argument, at least be prepared to defend it. There are too many people here by the name of "Anonymous Coward" to do that.
The "problem" is cultural, and it is entirely self-made.
The problem is political, not cultural. Remember all the choices people had in 1992 if they were opposed to NAFTA? Me neither. Sure there was Perot, but no 3rd party candidate has won a presidential election since Lincoln. Both the D and R were for it. Yes I know that wasn't directly related to China, but it was the beginning of the whole so-called free trade scam in the US.
Fact is that China is defensive in it's positions and pacifism is in China's interest and strategy.
That explains their belligerence over any worthless island within a few hundred miles of their coast and their refusal to recognize Taiwan as an independent country.
The kind of transfers of technological knowledge you are talking about are perfectly legal
They're legal from the US because the US has chosen to make it so. What we're debating is whether that's a good idea, from both a military and a commercial POV.
necessary so China doesn't have to go the same lengthy pains of industrialization with even worse pollution
So your rationale is that the purpose of these technology transfers is to keep Chinese pollution down? It's working well. Tell me another one.
Keeping them as "the third world", exploited and underdeveloped is not an option.
Not giving them jet engine tech is tantamount to keeping them exploited and underdeveloped? As I mentioned earlier, there are only 3 companies in the world worth talking about for jet engines, and they're located in 2 countries. Interestingly there are many countries in the world that don't manufacture jet engines and are anything but exploited and underdeveloped.
The US is the #1 manufacturing country on the planet
And an even bigger consumer of manufactured products, ergo our persistent trade deficit. We have, and will continue to have, a trade deficit in mineral wealth (most especially including oil), our vaunted surplus in services has never taken off as predicted, and we probably won't ever have a much bigger surplus in agriculture. Manufacturing was (believe it or not folks) our main surplus for many years, and it doesn't look like there's anything to replace it, so shipping factories to China doesn't seem like it was such a good idea.
It's a matter of degree. It was one thing for the French or whomever to try to find out about the details of a bid by some US company to a foreign country, but China takes it much further. Very high level execs had to worry about being spied on, but in China every 2-bit businessman is well advised to leave their cell phone and laptop at home.
you'd have to be delusional to think that countries play nice with each other, but seriously, how do we know how much of this is fact and how much is fearmongering
The book sounds over-the-top, but that doesn't mean that everything recommended to fight this is a bad idea. Is there any doubt in your mind that China's industrial espionage is over-the-top, and that joint ventures between US and Chinese companies are something done for the sake of "technology transfer"? In some cases that's quite openly true. For example, GE happily showed China how to build gas turbines (half a step from jet engines) and is now happily showing them how to build the engines (via a joint venture). This is a technology where only three companies in the world are worth talking about. This is the kind of thing that's to the short term advantage of Jeff "American Jobs Czar" Immelt and major GE stockholders, and the long term detriment of most Americans.
On the military side, I'm the last person to bang the war drum. The whole "pivot to the Pacific" sounds like a way to give the navy its turn after the army and air force were the stars in Afghanistan and Iraq. OTOH, I'd also be very careful to keep China from getting advanced military technology as much as possible (e.g. don't help them learn how to design and build jet engines).
Only an American citizen would say "guns are a necessary evil". You don't see the average Canadian, Australian, European or Japanese joe carrying a gun.
Canada has a higher gun ownership rate than the US.
Anyone who's read Frederick Forsyth or "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" has the knowledge on how to make a nuclear device. You may even have learned the principles in an undergrad physics course. If you could get the right amount of purified uranium and the stuff to make an initiator you could make one.
The correct analogy would be that it's ok for people to build nuclear weapons as long as they pinky swear not to use them.
The British government kept the secret that they had broken the German Enigma encryption system
Because the Germans thought it hadn't been broken. If there are any terrorists who think the NSA can't monitor phone and Internet traffic, they're too stupid to worry about.
Williams [the property owner] then decided to sell the remains, and contracted with Sotheby's to auction the property.... On October 4, 1997, the auction began at $500,000; less than ten minutes later, The Field Museum had purchased the remains with the highest bid of $8,362,500.
Doesn't sound like the property owner did too badly.
Bob Bailey, the MPP for the area, said he has spoken to the minister of consumer services (the Funeral, Burial and Cremation Services Act falls under her purview) and her staff, and intends to make sure Sauve won’t have to pay.
Slashdot Mirror
The US has essentially the same percentage of world manufacturing today as it did in 1970.
Now there's an irrelevant sound byte! Let me know when you're up to addressing the trade deficit issues.
I see the AC is still in rant mode, using such elegant counterarguments as "that is just retarded". Hint: the first rule of being in a hole is to stop digging.
Karma is a real thing on slashdot - we're not talking about metaphysics here.
This is comical. I admire people like they guy who stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square, but somehow I don't feel like I'm in his league if I risk my Slashdot karma.
P.S. I'm fully aware of how the karma system here works, but some some reason I'm less afraid of it than truncheons and bullets (let alone tanks!).
We're giving them that hand-over-fist? You'd rather have China stay a third world country?
False dichotomy. Many countries have vastly increased their standard of living without the US transferring it's technological know-how and manufacturing capacity wholesale. I have faith in the Chinese people to figure it out for themselves, but I'm puzzled why you have such a low opinion of their abilities.
People post as Anon for similar reasons as to why people protest while wearing masks in corrupt police states.
They're afraid that jackbooted Slashdotters will break into their homes at night and drag them off, never to be seen again?
If you have something to say, which is a valid, but very unpopular opinion, sure, you can post with your real handle, but then you'll just get bad karma
Oooh, bad karma. Is that anything like the gulag?
I honestly don't know how much courage I have to stand up to jackbooted thugs in a corrupt police state, but I'm incredibly intrepid when it comes to posting unpopular arguments on Slashdot using my "real" name (full disclosure: ebno-10db is not the name on my birth certificate). I even do it at the risk of my life giving karma!
More crying on nicknames from someone who can't make proper counter arguments. ... What are you an idiot?
I'm impressed by the way you stick to "proper counter arguments".
Your "rebuttal" didn't address anything about what I wrote. Instead you just jumped into a rant. Did you have trouble countering my point?
See, here is your problem, you Americans never seem to understand one simple concept: "Mind your own business".
By your own reasoning you don't know how to mind your own business, since (I infer from your post) you're not an American, and you're posting on an American website where American politics are frequently discussed. Unless you're Chinese, then by your own reasoning you really don't know how to mind your own business, since this is about Chinese and American issues.
Post back when you've resolved that hypocrisy.
More AC(s). 'nuf said.
You missed the point, The difference here is China never pretended to be some FREEEEEEEEEEEEDOM (tm) fighter ...
It's ok for China to oppress its own citizens because they never claimed they don't? According to your logic, it's ok to do anything as long as you're not a hypocrite about it.
Beware the phony posts attacking this book by the Water Army....it has started already
See above for example. But I like the Water Army. It's fun to rebut their arguments, even if it's not always sporting enough.
Snowden just did another interview, more details are coming.
Notice all the people here defending the NSA from Snowden's disclosures? Me neither. If China isn't doing this to its own citizens then they probably have a crash program to catch up. Is getting screwed by our own government in one respect a good reason to let China screw us in other respects?
Let's point fingers at everyone else and ignore the fact that the US is still the worst of them all, combined.
As always, the most inflammatory comments come from AC's. If you're going to make an argument, at least be prepared to defend it. There are too many people here by the name of "Anonymous Coward" to do that.
Well if you are going to do a drive by accusations with no factsthen let me try also. Want to know the worst country for this stuff: Uruguay!
No, Paraguay (I get them confused too).
The "problem" is cultural, and it is entirely self-made.
The problem is political, not cultural. Remember all the choices people had in 1992 if they were opposed to NAFTA? Me neither. Sure there was Perot, but no 3rd party candidate has won a presidential election since Lincoln. Both the D and R were for it. Yes I know that wasn't directly related to China, but it was the beginning of the whole so-called free trade scam in the US.
Fact is that China is defensive in it's positions and pacifism is in China's interest and strategy.
That explains their belligerence over any worthless island within a few hundred miles of their coast and their refusal to recognize Taiwan as an independent country.
The kind of transfers of technological knowledge you are talking about are perfectly legal
They're legal from the US because the US has chosen to make it so. What we're debating is whether that's a good idea, from both a military and a commercial POV.
necessary so China doesn't have to go the same lengthy pains of industrialization with even worse pollution
So your rationale is that the purpose of these technology transfers is to keep Chinese pollution down? It's working well. Tell me another one.
Keeping them as "the third world", exploited and underdeveloped is not an option.
Not giving them jet engine tech is tantamount to keeping them exploited and underdeveloped? As I mentioned earlier, there are only 3 companies in the world worth talking about for jet engines, and they're located in 2 countries. Interestingly there are many countries in the world that don't manufacture jet engines and are anything but exploited and underdeveloped.
The US is the #1 manufacturing country on the planet
And an even bigger consumer of manufactured products, ergo our persistent trade deficit. We have, and will continue to have, a trade deficit in mineral wealth (most especially including oil), our vaunted surplus in services has never taken off as predicted, and we probably won't ever have a much bigger surplus in agriculture. Manufacturing was (believe it or not folks) our main surplus for many years, and it doesn't look like there's anything to replace it, so shipping factories to China doesn't seem like it was such a good idea.
It's a matter of degree. It was one thing for the French or whomever to try to find out about the details of a bid by some US company to a foreign country, but China takes it much further. Very high level execs had to worry about being spied on, but in China every 2-bit businessman is well advised to leave their cell phone and laptop at home.
you'd have to be delusional to think that countries play nice with each other, but seriously, how do we know how much of this is fact and how much is fearmongering
The book sounds over-the-top, but that doesn't mean that everything recommended to fight this is a bad idea. Is there any doubt in your mind that China's industrial espionage is over-the-top, and that joint ventures between US and Chinese companies are something done for the sake of "technology transfer"? In some cases that's quite openly true. For example, GE happily showed China how to build gas turbines (half a step from jet engines) and is now happily showing them how to build the engines (via a joint venture). This is a technology where only three companies in the world are worth talking about. This is the kind of thing that's to the short term advantage of Jeff "American Jobs Czar" Immelt and major GE stockholders, and the long term detriment of most Americans.
On the military side, I'm the last person to bang the war drum. The whole "pivot to the Pacific" sounds like a way to give the navy its turn after the army and air force were the stars in Afghanistan and Iraq. OTOH, I'd also be very careful to keep China from getting advanced military technology as much as possible (e.g. don't help them learn how to design and build jet engines).
Only an American citizen would say "guns are a necessary evil". You don't see the average Canadian, Australian, European or Japanese joe carrying a gun.
Canada has a higher gun ownership rate than the US.
Anyone who's read Frederick Forsyth or "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" has the knowledge on how to make a nuclear device. You may even have learned the principles in an undergrad physics course. If you could get the right amount of purified uranium and the stuff to make an initiator you could make one.
The correct analogy would be that it's ok for people to build nuclear weapons as long as they pinky swear not to use them.
The British government kept the secret that they had broken the German Enigma encryption system
Because the Germans thought it hadn't been broken. If there are any terrorists who think the NSA can't monitor phone and Internet traffic, they're too stupid to worry about.
Williams [the property owner] then decided to sell the remains, and contracted with Sotheby's to auction the property. ... On October 4, 1997, the auction began at $500,000; less than ten minutes later, The Field Museum had purchased the remains with the highest bid of $8,362,500.
Doesn't sound like the property owner did too badly.
RTFA:
Bob Bailey, the MPP for the area, said he has spoken to the minister of consumer services (the Funeral, Burial and Cremation Services Act falls under her purview) and her staff, and intends to make sure Sauve won’t have to pay.
Party pooper. We were having fun discussing this.
those who benefit by it to the exclusion of their fellows should not be divorced from the obligations associated with it
Well put, and utterly meaningless without any specifics about those obligations.