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Canadian Couple Charged $5k For Finding 400-Year-Old Skeleton

First time accepted submitter Rebecka Schumann writes "Ontario couple Ken Campbell and Nicole Sauve said a recent fence installation led them to discover what is being labeled a historical find. Sauve, who said the duo originally believed the skeleton to be from bones of an animal, called the Ontario Provincial Police to investigate; Forensic Anthropologist Michael Spence confirmed the bones were that of an aboriginal woman who died at age 24 between the late 1500s to the early 1600s. In spite of reporting their find and Spence's evaluation, Suave and Campbell were told they were required to hire an archeologist to assess their property at their own expense under Ontario's Funeral, Burial and Cremation Services Act. The act, which requires evaluation for all properties found to house human remains, has the Canadian couple stuck with a big bill."

601 comments

  1. Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Don't do the dig if you can't cover the vig.

    1. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My first construction job was in Texas in an area where the was a lot of limestone and caves. If the construction hit a cave, they would have to stop work and hire an archaeologist to investigate for Native American artifacts, and then excavate if they found any

      As a result, they would quietly fill any 'gaps' they found with concrete (sometimes truckloads) just to avoid finding any inconvenient remains

      All in all, the effect of the law ran exactly opposite to the intent of the law

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    2. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All in all, the effect of the law ran exactly opposite to the intent of the law

      This is not a plausible claim.

      If it was just this one example, then maybe it would be, but when you're talking about decades of examples where laws of all types achieve the exact opposite of their stated goals, and when the people enacting and enforcing laws ignore the mountains of evidence of this and continue to do what has been provably shown to accomplish the exact opposite of their stated goals, then it's more rational to assume that the stated goals of the laws have nothing whatsoever to do with the real intent of those enacting and enforcing the laws.

    3. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by sideslash · · Score: 1

      Apparently you haven't rubbed shoulders with typical legislators and bureaucrats.

    4. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Picass0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nice. Your former employer filled undocumented, potentially important history (which belongs to us all) with cement. You worked for the same breed of dumbasses who tore down a Mayan temple to make road gravel.

      Is government a pain in the ass? Yes. Do the overreact? All the time. Why? Because of people doing stuff like what you just described.

    5. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by dywolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      while the project is held up they arent making money. yet they still have to pay their workers. or they can lay them off. and they (the company) has to pay the cost of the research too.

      its a double jeapardy burden on the company, effectively punishing them for "doing the right thing"... and you think that's right and fair?

      bugger off.

      its like the morons around here who all of a sudden want to "make it a law for everyone to have tornado shelters....but they have to pay for it them themselves". if "the law" wants to require people to do something that costs money, then "the law" needs to pay for it. otherwise "the law" can go bugger itself.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    6. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      no, the point is, if the government wants to get archeological artefacts it should probably pay for their recovery, not make the finder pay what seems to him only as retribution (kinda like: "I order you to help me mow the lawn and then also pay for the lawnmower and fuel")

    7. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Imagix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your former employer filled undocumented, potentially important history (which belongs to us all)

      In which case, why didn't we "all" pay for the dig instead of shafting the finder with the bill? And, reimburse the finder for the appropriation of land and/or time? (The gov't already said go ahead and build there, now they want to change their mind. With authority should come responsibility.)

    8. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And just why should his company be required to foot the bill? That's the whole reason they filled it in.

    9. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by eth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nice. Your former employer filled undocumented, potentially important history (which belongs to us all) with cement. You worked for the same breed of dumbasses who tore down a Mayan temple to make road gravel.

      Is government a pain in the ass? Yes. Do the overreact? All the time. Why? Because of people doing stuff like what you just described.

      And once news gets around of this incident, the same thing will start happening in Canada. Most people can't afford to pour thousands of dollars down a hole - they'll get absolutely no benefit from the expenditure. If people have a choice between doing the right thing and going bankrupt, or quietly covering/disposing of the evidence, what do you think most people will do? If the state is going to require that sort of expensive investigation, then they need to pay for it.

    10. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the government wants to protect artifacts, then they should pay for it. Why should society benefit at the expensive of the individual? If anything, these companies should be rewarded for finding stuff, not punished.

    11. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, they preserved the history they found in concrete until a more enlightened generation (or species) comes along to find it.

      Meanwhile, the modern economy was allowed to roll along more quickly to whatever end it is heading for (good, bad, matter of opinion?)

    12. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      That makes perfect sense to me.

    13. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      As a result, they would quietly fill any 'gaps' they found with concrete (sometimes truckloads) just to avoid finding any inconvenient remains

      All in all, the effect of the law ran exactly opposite to the intent of the law

      Which is stupid, because it's trivially easy to make a law that works the way it's intended. Don't force the landowner or construction company to pay for archeology that's supposed to benefit society as a whole. If they find ruins, they should stop production, receive a stipend for their time, and the government should hire the archaeologist.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    14. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 4, Insightful

      if "the law" wants to require people to do something that costs money, then "the law" needs to pay for it. otherwise "the law" can go bugger itself.

      Stupid building codes, driver's permits, garbage collection, always making ME pay for them.

      Money's nifty but it's not the only thing.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    15. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by FuzzNugget · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If it belongs to the public, then the public should pay for it.

    16. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1
      This is also why the law is wrong. The law should compensate the construction company and the developer for the lost time. The Fifth Amendment states, among other things:

      nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation

      I think it is worthwhile to investigate but we need to compensate people, not punish them, should they find something. If we, as a society, don't think it is worth the money then we shouldn't so burden the developers and owners of the land.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    17. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I agree, if we want the finds to actually be reported, we need to foot the bill, otherwise 'dumbasses' like that will be doing the perfectly rational thing.

    18. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by GLMDesigns · · Score: 2

      No. The government should reimburse companies, developers for their lost time and money as required by the Constitution.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    19. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by ddd0004 · · Score: 0

      they flail wildly with abso-fucking-lutely no direction. Politicians basically sit around and comment on shit of which they have no idea to appear busy.

      This is not limited politicians. This statement pretty much describes all of human history up to and including this reply.

      Stick with what works I always say.

    20. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's nonsense. There are countless examples of government simply doing the wrong thing and overreacting badly.

      Of the following three scenarios, which do you think is most likely to work and which is most likely to destroy archaelogical finds?

      1. The landowner must report on any archaelogical finds and pay to have the site investigated. Any items will not belong to the landowner.
      2. The landowner must report on any archaelogical finds and pay to have the site investigated, but the items found will belong to the landowner, who may sell or donate, but not destroy them.
      3. The landowner must report on any archaelogical finds. The government will pay to have the site investigated and will be the owner of any found items.

      To me, the second option is the fairest and most likely to prevent the destruction of the items. If we make it profitable, it is not only fair, but it encourages people to find these items. The third option is less fair in that it doesn't account for the opportunity costs lost due to the investigation, but at least the landowner isn't having to foot the bill. The first option is completely unfair and leads (demonstrably) to lost artifacts.

    21. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Sique · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You are not required to have a driver's permit, thus this example is not valid.

      You are not required to build something, thus this example is not valid.

      You are not required to create garbage, thus this example is not valid.

      Sorry, but if you do something that influences other people (and all three, driving, building and creating garbage do so massively), you are required to follow rules negotiated by the people (maY it be by elections, petitions and writing your member of congress, or via written or unwritten contracts) you are influencing.

      If you want to drive around, build something or litter as you want without any restrictions, go, find some place where you are disturbing no one else, and do it there.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    22. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by arfonrg · · Score: 1

      You TOTALLY MISSED garyisabusyguy's point. You are making the 'former employer' the bad guy instead of the true cause, the bad law.

      Get rid of the law and people usually do the right thing (try to save those precious artifacts)... As it is now, the law is pretty much guaranteeing their destruction.

      --
      Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    23. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, I have.

      The intent of a law from the perspective of a legislator is to grant favors to people who will grant favors to them in return. The public is told, or is convieniently allowed to assume, a more benign and enlightened intent than what is actually true.

      The intent of a law from the perspective of a bueracrat is to justifiy that bueracrat's continued salary and eventual pension.

      This is the only explaination that is consistent with the evidence of how legislators and bueracrats behave. (as opposed to what they say).

    24. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Construction company executives, on the other hand, have perfect judgement about what is important and what is not.

      ~s

      Idiots making decisions is inevitable. When talking about goverment regulation vs self regulation, it's question of whether you want the poor decisions to come from someone who is elected through a semi-democratic process with at least a stated goal of public interest or whether you want the poor decisions to come from someone put in place by the executive board whose stated goal is to make money.

    25. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      receive a stipend for their time, and the government should hire the archaeologist.

      The moment you do this though I think that you'd find that the government doesn't think all those 'priceless archeological historical items' aren't priceless after all...

      Still, it'd be a net positive. You wouldn't have people quietly disposing of said artifacts, sort of like how there are constant rumors about developers equally quietly disposing of any endangered species that might be found in the development area that would bring said development to a screeching halt.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    26. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by JeanInMontana · · Score: 2

      <quote><p>My first construction job was in Texas in an area where the was a lot of limestone and caves. If the construction hit a cave, they would have to stop work and hire an archaeologist to investigate for Native American artifacts, and then excavate if they found any</p><p>As a result, they would quietly fill any 'gaps' they found with concrete (sometimes truckloads) just to avoid finding any inconvenient remains</p><p>All in all, the effect of the law ran exactly opposite to the intent of the law</p></quote>

      I wish you would name this employer so they could be investigated.  Or at the very least slapped upside the head.  How would they like having their families sacred 'gaps' filled in for the sake of profit?  This total lack of respect for others is one of the biggest problems in this country.  It's all about 'me' and what I can get from it.  Makes me sick.

      --
      *Think globally~Dream universally*
    27. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If companies want to dig holes, and in the process take away some of our history, they need to pay all of us for it.

    28. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The artifacts aren't private property, you dip shit.

      They dig the hole (to make money), they pay for any public historical finds. It's the cost of doing business. Deal with it.

    29. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And once news gets around of this incident, the same thing will start happening in Canada.

      *Start* happening? This incident is classic Canadian government psychotic over-regulation. It's pretty insane in the U.S. sometimes (e.g. NYC Building Permits are more complex than quantum mechanics), but Canada does a lot of really insane things. You need an HVAC inspection with new construction that doesn't have HVAC systems, for example. Everyone in government above a certain level has to learn French, even though most of the country doesn't use it and most of the government doesn't use it in their jobs--and the government will *PAY* for them to learn French.

    30. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      It's worse then that. Any grave artifacts are valuable. By reporting the find, not only do you have to pay, you lose income and the use of your land.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    31. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you expect for an outfit working in Texas?

    32. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I ran heavy equipment for a couple of years and we had similar policies when it came to finding fossils or possible historical artifacts. Short of finding the Ark of the Covenent buried in the ground, we were to quietly dig it up and never tell anyone where it came from. As a result, my yard is covered in petrified wood and dinosaur bones.

    33. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by jandrese · · Score: 4, Funny

      On the other hand, they'll probably be pretty well preserved now that they're encased in cement.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    34. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by HiThere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I *slightly* disagree. It's entirely appropriate that construction companies be required to preserve historic artifacts. What's not appropriate is that *particular* construction companies be so required. That's, as mentioned, counter productive, and places the burden on those who are conscientious. It needs to be a general fee levied on ALL construction companies, with a partial rebate to those that find and appropriately report them. Doing it the other way creates and adverse incentive, as stated.

      So. Perhaps tornado shelters are a good idea. If so, at least a part of the construction cost should be remitted for installng one. And perhaps some sort of punishment ("You go the end of the line in case of emergency"?) should be implemented for lack of one.

      That said, I'm not sure it should be legal to sell or rent properties lacking a tornado shelter in areas where a tornado is likely. You may not be able to install it due to lack of finances, but this doesn't mean you should be able to transfer the problem to someone else. Perhaps sale should be allowed if the purchaser signed a clear statement in 14 point type saying (approximately) "I understand that the state believes living in this place is unsafe due to the lack of a tornado shelter.". Renting is, however, a separate problem. Landlords have a long history of totally ignoring the safety of their tennants, so I don't think they should be granted ANY slack.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    35. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by yurtinus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      potentially important history (which belongs to us all) with cement

      Here's the thing - if that important history belongs to all of us, why would the burden for extracting and preserving it fall solely on the homeowner or developer that found it? It's easy for us to say "yeah, that should be preserved" - it's entirely another thing for us to demand somebody else pay for it.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    36. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That would involved increasing tax rates.

      Don't get me wrong, I think that the government should pay the assessed value when they need to seize land, and that they should pay for the cost of replacing sidewalks, or in this case investigating the caverns, but the reality is that people don't want to pay the cost of that via taxes, and most people will never be directly affected by it.

    37. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by swalve · · Score: 2

      That's what construction insurance is for. These homeowners kinda got screwed, but the fun thing about buying property is that you buy any undiscovered troubles and benefits with the property. If they found a chest full of pirate gold, they would probably not be complaining so much.

    38. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 2

      "People" might. Corporations, not so much. If you believe that corporations are "people" under the law then the case law currently says they have to act like sociopaths or they might have a lawsuit. This is exactly why oversight is needed.

    39. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by interval1066 · · Score: 2

      France itself goes even further. Students of many sciences (math, physics, etc.) are required to record all their research in French, where as even in many German institutions English courses are a requirement. Then when they go to conferences the research is presented primarily in English and German, virtually nothing is done in French, putting the French researchers at a disadvantage.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    40. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or we could make the penalty for destroying archaeological sites a felony punishable by significant jail time.

    41. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by yurtinus · · Score: 2

      It's also worthwhile to consider that this happened in the Canadias, the Fifth Amendment doesn't specifically apply.

      Not saying the point isn't relevant to the conversation, since we're pretty aware that the same practice exists in the states... Really I just wanted to be a pedantic ass.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    42. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by phrostie · · Score: 1

      I suspect you are confusing two different issues.

      the San Antonio and Austin areas are very protective of the Edwards aquifer recharge zone.
      Most caves in the region eventually feed back to the aquifer.
      The caves are sealed to help protect the aquifer from you contaminating it.

      That said the same geologists who prevent me as a spelunker, from enjoying my hobby, would honestly rather be searching for arrow heads and other artifacts themselves. once the caves are sealed no one will ever be able to go in again, so they inform local universities to some of it can be salvaged.

      no one likes it, but it has to be done to protect the aquifer.

    43. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      You want to dig in the dirt, you get to follow the rules.

      Don't like it? Don't get in the earth-moving business. Tough cookies.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    44. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by kimvette · · Score: 1

      nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation

      I'm pretty sure none of the US Constitution applies, given this situation is not on American soil.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    45. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      That's not funny either.

      I'd somewhat disagree with the perspective of a bureocrat. It's the legislators that write laws, the bureocrats are required to apply them and are often reluctant to do that. That said, bureocrats do write some rules, when the Law tells them to, and some of them do think that way... What's unexpected because despite your claims, normaly their salaries and pension isn't dependent on convoluted rules.

      Sig. a bureocrat (that loves exposing stupid rules and already helped extinguishing my 3 previous work assignments - that means, nobody does them anymore, except for one that we couldn't completely extinguish, so there are 2 people locked on it, replacing a team of 21.)

    46. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by yurtinus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The topic has been pretty well covered, but consider both sides of this discussion being quite selfish and childish.

      The one side says "Damn, that's a big expense and hassle, let's just keep it buried."

      The other side says "Hey, that stuff belongs to all of us. *You* need to pay to dig it up to share with everybody."

      The fact is, both sides are selfish and lacking respect for others - but the fault doesn't lie with either. The fault lies in a law that places a burden on people for simply finding artifacts like these. If your family's sacred gaps are lost out there in the countryside - you shouldn't expect the guy who bought that land and stumbled across it while digging a hole to foot the bill to extract or preserve it. If society wants it preserved, then the government should foot the bill and let society pay for its preservation. If it's just you that wants it preserved, well you should probably get out your pocketbook. As it is now, we do have developers and putting up tremendous amounts of money to investigate them without seeing any benefit from their efforts besides a ton of negative press.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    47. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that without this law, companies would actually stop the dig and check for what's going on? No, they would do exactly what they were doing even after the law was enacted.

      All that this shows is that laws that ask people to self-report and incur significant costs due to the self-reporting are going to fail. There are a couple of solutions to it, whether it is to have the public pay for the cost (not going to happen in Texas), to not grant construction permits in areas with caves or to have an archeologist attached to every construction, but just passing a law that says "you will pay significant money anytime something happens that no one will find out about" is silly. It also shows that self-regulation is a complete boondoggle that works only for the most masochistic corporations, or where there is great publicity attached to every event that is supposed to be self-regulated.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    48. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your former employer filled undocumented, potentially important history (which belongs to us all)

      In which case, why didn't we "all" pay for the dig instead of shafting the finder with the bill? And, reimburse the finder for the appropriation of land and/or time? (The gov't already said go ahead and build there, now they want to change their mind. With authority should come responsibility.)

      Did you buy title insurance with your house & property? In areas where there are contested titles, this is often required by lenders (banks). If you buy in an area where there might be interesting archeology, why not buy insurance to cover the potential cost of the research.

    49. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      I don't understand your vehemence. This is a public taking. If we say that starting from now all lands with species X on it are to be protected then we need to compensate people for their loss. Just because the artifact doesn't belong to the landowners doesn't mean they have the responsibility to stop work, lose money so society can have one more artifact in a museum.

      Again, if the artifact belongs to ALL OF US, then all of us ought to pay for saving, preserving and displaying said artifact.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    50. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a Home Owner's Association.

      They will make you mow your lawn, and pay for it...and resist at your own peril.

    51. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      True. :-)

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    52. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Yes but the artifact doesn't belong to them. It belongs to society and society said that construction must stop and bills the homeowner for this. That's not just. And it's counter productive as others will see this as a lesson to keep their mouth shut and destroy the finds.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    53. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      The big question is, would the pirate gold belong to the people when it's on their property? If so, the the skeleton would also be their property. So after they paid the archaeologist, they should then have the right to sell anything he finds to the archaeologist or any museum who wants to buy the artifacts. Some initial Googling suggest that any treasure you find on your land is yours unless the original owner is found, which in the case of a 400 year old skeleton, the would be no owner, and even if you did argue that people could be "owned' the owner would be long dead. So, while they may be out $5000 to pay an archaeologist, they may even be able to make some money, or at least not lose so much from selling the found artifacts.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    54. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's funny... The town I live in has an ordinance to that effect. All lawns must be mowed at the property owner's expense. If the property owner fails to do so, the city will send someone out to do it and place a lien on the property for the cost.

    55. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably because wealthy employer types also throw extreme hissy fits at any suggestion of collecting and using tax money for "useless" things like historical/cultural preservation. They'd much rather foist the costs off onto any individual stupid enough to be honest and report the find, instead of acting like a proper antisocial capitalist and destroying the shared cultural heritage to make a parking lot.

    56. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This does happen in Canada ... in the worst cases, some smaller spec. builders would go under if they tried to finance some of the archeological digs they are supposed-to (the red tape alone is a nightmare). Starve or "unfind" an artefact: not really a tough choice.

    57. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, a good number of jurisdictions make it a crime to hold on to discovered relics like pirate gold for example. So if they had tried to cash it in they might look at jail time. Salvage vs treasure hunting is a contentious issue. Spain is suing a bunch of folks who found a sunken Spanish galleon saying they never abandoned the wreck.

    58. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by PsychoSlashDot · · Score: 1

      Nice. Your former employer filled undocumented, potentially important history (which belongs to us all) with cement.

      If it's important to us all and belongs to us all and is not of benefit to the discoverer then why are "us all" paying for cost of recovery?

      --
      "Oh no... he found the .sig setting."
    59. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is pretty much inevitable any time the law sticks you with inconvenient bills you can shrug off if only you simply overlook what you see. The end result is undesirable for the greater good, but since nobody notices... yeah.

      It's the lawmakers that think up stupid laws like this that are criminally negligent. They bloody well ought to know how this works, and if they don't, they have no business drafting laws, nevermind passing them.

    60. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by 0racle · · Score: 2

      The way these things are handled leads people to do this. If they are deemed important to society then society should be making sure that it is protected, not the individual member of the society who has the bad luck of stumbling on it footing the bill, not just related to the excavation of the objects but the costs related to work being stopped.

      This article is the perfect example of the issue, they have to by law have it excavated and documented because the find may be of historical importance to the country. They, however, have to foot the bill themselves. It is set up like a punishment for finding and reporting. Surprisingly, people will just simply not report finds in the future.

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    61. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by stenvar · · Score: 1

      The problem here is that the government tried to push off paying for a benefit to the public onto a single business or individual. Why should one unlucky business owner lose thousands of dollars or more because some archaeologist thinks there might be something worthwhile there?

      If you want to fix this, then reward people for their finds, don't punish them: let them call it in, then bid on the right to delay their work and dig the stuff up.

    62. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by stenvar · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, if the public wants something, it should pay for it (through taxes). It shouldn't try to stick random bystanders with the cost, not just because it's unjust, but because it doesn't work: the predictable consequence of such laws is that what you consider valuable now just quietly disappears altogether.

    63. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      I can understand both sides of this one. They really shouldn't be making the finders pay for the excavation.

      In the case of a family finding a skeleton, $5,000 is a lot of money! If that history (belongs to us all) then (us all) should be footing the bill! I know that I for one could not afford to pay that kind of money for something I didn't expect and don't actually personally need. I just don't have that much lying around! It isn't there! Maybe I could make payments but a family is enough to pay for already, some extra payment that I don't need would cause a real, tangible hardship.

      As for the construction company pouring concrete down the hole.. that is pretty bad. It saddens me that someone is doing that. But... Could they afford to pay for a proper excavation? It sounds like this has happened more than once. How many excavations could they afford? Would they do the right thing right out of business? It's probably expensive enough just having a project delayed while the archaeologists do their thing. Remember.. if the company goes under real people, who are alive today lose their livelihoods. Will the museum take them in, cloth feed and shelter them?

      I do wish that construction company would use a less destructive method to cover things back up if that is what they must do. It's really too bad that the government that is demanding they do this doesn't at least pay for it.

    64. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by dywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      we're not talking about building codes
      were not talking about drivers permits
      we're not talking about garbage collection.

      we're talking about an archeological dig, and putting an undue burden on a family, such that the law is very likely to cause the next archeological find to end up ina trash bag and never be seen again. i brought up the example of mandated storm shelters...which cost >4k$ for the "cheap" ones...as another example of the "there ought to be a law" mentality. its easy to say. but paying for it isnt.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    65. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      If the likelihood and cost of those rules is great enough then there would be no more earth-movers. So, society does with out that I guess. Enjoy your slanty house as it slides down the hill!

    66. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2

      "(which belongs to us all)"

      Since you feel such a sense of ownership, maybe you should get your butt out there, and take care of business. In the absence of prompt action, it will be assumed that you've abandoned your claim of ownership.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    67. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by morgauxo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well... here are the taxpayers choices

      A. Pay for it, (and the public (museums) get the artifacts)
      B. Don't pay for it (and probably not get the artifacts)

      Apparently the government has taken choice C.

      Make one person (or household or business) who doesn't necessarily have any interest in the artifact pay for it out of their own pocket even if they cannot afford to do so.

      If you can't see why C. is wrong then I sincerely hope you make a monumental discovery in your own back yard some time soon.

    68. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Ruprecht+the+Monkeyb · · Score: 1

      Horseshit. It's almost certainly of no interest to anyone outside academics. Our ancestors didn't give a shit about history, and we turned out ok. Look at any really old European/Mediterranean city, and you'll see new construction piled on old construction every couple centuries for hundreds or thousands of years. If you think it's that important, than you pay for it. Your attitude is exactly why government is the problem; tons of power, no willingness to assume responsiblity.

    69. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by AJH16 · · Score: 2

      Does the law allow you to simply abandon the project? I thought it simply didn't allow the project to continue unless you removed the historical artifacts from the land. You don't technically have to spend more, but it could cause the project to be a loss up to that point.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    70. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by lgw · · Score: 0

      So you're fine with whatever laws the government makes, right? Infinite government power, unchecked by the people that power affects, that's your utopia? I'm not even sure I'm joking, given some of the posts I've seen on /. recently.

      Every law will incentivize some sort of behavior. Every law should be questioned on whether the result of that incentive outweighs any cost on money and liberty. Laws can only be justified by a net benefit to society.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    71. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by camperdave · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And once news gets around of this incident, the same thing will start happening in Canada.

      What makes you think it isn't already here? I've heard of things going the other way. If you don't grease the palm of the inspector, an arrowhead might fall out of his pocket, and "Oh, look! We must be on sacred ground. Looks like you'll have to stop digging until we get the permits re-examined and squared away."

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    72. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by cusco · · Score: 1

      More likely you'd have developers searching out insignificant archeological sites with the declared intention of putting up an outhouse, and then milking the stipend for as many years as they could get away with.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    73. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Funny

      I had to break in a new neighbor last year. Apparently the wife didn't like my mowing schedule.

      I was going to mow on a weekend, when I got a notice telling me I had three weeks to get my lawn mowed 'or else'. Needless to say I let it go until the last day and let her know why.

      I also let the husband know that he had to curb his bitch or the next call would be about the three commercial vehicles he parked on his property every night.

      I love my neighborhood. An HOA would have screwed that whole interaction up.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    74. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      That's just the frogs pining for the days when they were a world power and when the language of science was frog.

      No different then the Catholics holding onto Latin. In the end, both languages will fade into obscurity where they belong.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    75. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by lightknight · · Score: 2

      Actually, that history doesn't belong to us (all), but nice work with the whole broad appeal thing. Works wonders on juries when someone is trying to lift someone else's stuff, but needs to do it in a politically acceptable way. That history would, in theory, belong either to those who found it (assuming it was abandoned / no known descendents), or to the descendents of that piece of history.

      But I digress, you're going to find some way to put it into a museum for the masses to gawk at, and setup something akin to a tourist trap / gift shop out front, so let's dispense with lies, shall we?

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    76. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mold inspectors were busted here by the Department of Health for doing a similar thing. Apparently, they would have mold detectors that were already being exposed when they arrived to the job (for goodness knows how long before they arrived). This was after they would recommend sampling in situations where it is not considered necessary by the EPA or would claim that ANY symptom a person had was because of the mold to give themselves an excuse. Of course, most of the inspectors are either affiliated with or directly employed by the same companies that do remediation.

      And don't even get me started on what they found out with radon companies in a similar sting.

    77. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 2

      the bureocrats are required to apply them and are often reluctant to do that

      The problem with this statement is that it's not falsifiable.

      Anyone can talk about their motives and say they are reluctant to do something, but people frequently do lie about this to themselves and others. The only objective evidence an outsider has to evaulate motivations is behavior.

      Since it's not true that any bureaucrats have been conscripted into government service then it must be true that any objection a bureaucrat may have towards any single aspect of their job is less important to them than avoiding the inconvenience of finding a new job. Anything one is willing to continue accepting a paycheck for isn't something one can credibly claim to oppose. That's why I'm more inclined to accept Edward Snowden's expressed motives at face value than I'm willing to accept yours.

    78. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

      And, you AGREED TO THAT, in writing, when you signed the purchase contract for the property. I don't see these people, who likely had to pay for a construction permit to build the fence, agree to do more than build a fence as per the supplied plan. . .

    79. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

      Believe it or not, in most of the country garbage collection isn't a government function. If you want someone to pick up your trash, you have to go find a private trash hauler and pay them to do it, or you can take it to a landfill yourself.

    80. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by ravenscar · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree at all with your point. The part that I also think is important, however, is the fact that you state that history belongs to all of us. To mea, that means its maintenance and preservation need to be paid for by all of us - not the landowner by whom it was discovered. I would expect just compensation for time, lost opportunity, or seizure of property to be appropriate. Of course, this would need to be paid for via some government fund - I suggest pulling that money from the TSA.

    81. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never really understood archeologists with them out in the sun all day digging with paint-brushes, but it shows what a true interest the people have in being very careful and taking the time to find things that may very well crumble at the very slightest movements.

      If it's in their interests to find such things, I wonder why it's not easier to get them to 'sites known to have things to dig for'. Also, suppose a very important item is found (like a golden statue that's 20 feet tall), do the people that pay for the archeologists get to keep it all, or get reimbursed in some fashion? Because, if so, that would explain a lot.

    82. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by X0563511 · · Score: 2

      That doesn't give you the right to quietly ignore it, destroying historical artifacts in the process.

      It would be one thing if you were just saving time, but those places/objects are being irretrievably destroyed for your laziness/greed.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    83. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by halivar · · Score: 4, Funny

      Agreed. No one has spoken a word of Latin in common conversation almost 1600 years, and is ipso facto a dead language.

    84. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are not required to have a driver's permit, thus this example is not valid.

      You are not required to build something, thus this example is not valid.

      You are not required to create garbage, thus this example is not valid.

      Sorry, but if you do something that influences other people (and all three, driving, building and creating garbage do so massively), you are required to follow rules negotiated by the people (maY it be by elections, petitions and writing your member of congress, or via written or unwritten contracts) you are influencing.

      If you want to drive around, build something or litter as you want without any restrictions, go, find some place where you are disturbing no one else, and do it there.

      Ok - you want to own a house - you are not required to (you could rent for example) - therefore you must accept reasonable payments for the things you want to do, but don't need to do, like the above. No?

    85. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by boristdog · · Score: 2

      I can verify this. A pipeline company ran into a decent-sized cavern on my property (many years before I bought it) and they just filled it in with dirt from elsewhere on the property so they wouldn't have to deal with environmental or archeological laws.

      Which sucks now because I wish I had a cavern on my property.

    86. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Picass0 · · Score: 1

      OK. Let's do it you way. Next time a construction company punches into a void area of limestone or other sediment they should fill it without further study or concern. I'll tell them Runaway1956 takes full responsibility, don't be concerned with a delay. Fill it with concrete. After all, that brand new Nuclear Power Station you're building is going to supply energy for an entire region. We shouldn't concern ourselves with the possibility you accidently discovered a previously undocumented fault line.

    87. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean like the new laws regarding insurance? I think you do...

    88. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by haystor · · Score: 1

      Fundamentally, it is putting a value on the site, but putting the cost on the finder. The cost should be borne by those who value it, if that means "the people" then the government should come in and pick it up, possibly even paying the owner of the land for the use.

      In this case, the government only values it as far as the owner can pay for it.

      --
      t
    89. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by haystor · · Score: 1

      It is your greed that thinks someone else should pay for something you value.

      --
      t
    90. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by couchslug · · Score: 1

      If someone is going to punish me for what I find on MY property, fuck 'em.

      A few bones or arrowheads or potshards aren't going to change the world, are not a Mayan temple (one thing is not like the other) and I refuse to suffer that academics may be entertained.

      If I found bones, they'd be bone meal in my garden. If I found stone items, they'd be gravel, if I found pottery it would be dust, and if I found precious metals they'd be in a crucible meeting my cutting torch with some modern metals added to skew the assay.

      If OTOH the government were to PAY for the COMPLETE costs of rescuing the objects and/or buy my property at a suitable profit, they could have at it.

      What I buy and own is mine and I'd kill to protect it if I thought fit. Without property rights there is no (practical) freedom.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    91. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      *roll eyes*

      So, you're suggesting that there should be both a geological survey and an archeological survey? Why don't we survey for endangered species while we're at it?

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    92. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Possibly, but then, it depends how stupid the people running the corporation are...and to be honest, there may be brighter bulbs at an Green energy festival than what we are seeing here.

      Fuck, if I ran a corporation, and found a crapload of artifacts of any significant worth at the site of one of my new buildings, I'd stop all work long enough to cart them off to a professional appraiser / restorer, then mount them in the lobby of the new building with all sorts of plaques when it was finished being built. I'd have the lower area marked off as some sort of museum in exchange for a sweet tax break deal (good for as long as the museum exists...and what is good PR worth?), then I'd add it to my list of accomplishments before the board that year. Something something 'preserver of the arts'...

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    93. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep the guvment out of it altogether. The find was on private property. Find a wealthy buyer interested in obtaining the goods for their own private collection. It should fetch a nice handsome sum. PROFIT! Don't disclose the sale. Don't allow the guvment to benefit from your find. Down,y pay taxes on the sale. No PROFIT! down.t you love capitalism!

    94. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Hatta · · Score: 2

      Stupid building codes, driver's permits, garbage collection, always making ME pay for them.

      Why shouldn't the government pay for all of those things? Would we get better compliance if it did? Would that lead to improved quality of life for our citizens? These are testable hypotheses.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    95. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by X0563511 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I happen to believe that the entity enforcing the law should be paying for it, not you.

      But that does not absolve you for destroying it to get away without having to deal with it. Ethically, I find that wrong.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    96. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You hint that you don't have a HOA after saying you had a notice to mow your lawn or else. Without a HOA, what or else could there possibly be? Throw the notice away and forget about it.

    97. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Picass0 · · Score: 1

      I know. What was I thinking? Screw bringing in those eggheads!

      When you punch through to a hole in the ground I would have thought somebody would be concerned with sinkholes and other underground features that can cause a foundation to shift or collapse.

      Nope. We should follow your lead. Drive those piles into the ground and raise a 40 story building.

    98. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      County/city code. Not nearly as bad as a HOA.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    99. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      *roll eyes again*

      Don't you understand that you are off topic? TFS is about an archeological find. GP in this thread remained on topic with potential archeological finds, and the burdensome regulations surrounding them. Then, you seem to have branched out into geological faults, and I handed back endangered species and environmental impact studies.

      GP didn't mention what was being built, so I can't make any evaluation about safety or anything, IN THAT CASE. But, it's not uncommon in the Arklatex to find voids underground, such as he mentions. In limestone country, it's to be EXPECTED. You fill in the void, and go on. Now, if you were building a high rise, or a nuclear reactor - yeah, you're going to be a little more concerned. Building a sawmill? I built a sawmill that floats on gumbo, which in turn floats over top of a layer of limestone. (gumbo - a rather soupy mix of clay, water, and vegetable matter) Limestone is common throughout the region. Building a warehouse? Again, no problem - I built one over a couple of voids. We didn't even bother to fill in the voids, we just put a heavy-up around and across them. Oh - someone actually did look inside of those voids, and found no skulls, arrow heads, or cave drawings. Still - the voids are still there, we built right over top of them.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    100. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      Well, if the public wants something, it should pay for it (through taxes). It shouldn't try to stick random bystanders with the cost, not just because it's unjust, but because it doesn't work: the predictable consequence of such laws is that what you consider valuable now just quietly disappears altogether.

      Bingo. This guy gets it. The responsibility is being laid with the wrong party; You're making these people responsible for unspecified and possibly prohibitively expensive work, and they're being paid by contracts with tight margins. Contracts don't say "Oh by the way, you may have to eat an extra $20 mil on your basement remodel because we found a cave there that nobody knew about. The contract is for $50,000 of work. ha ha."

      If the government hadn't half-assed it and setup some kind of insurance fund and then just applied a .xx % tax to contract work done to support such excavations, etc., you'd be seeing a lot more cooperation. Not total cooperation, because not everyone wants their construction job delayed and a few asshats will try to hide it to keep the time tables, but it wouldn't be common industry practice, which is what this fail law causes.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    101. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by jopsen · · Score: 1

      while the project is held up they arent making money. yet they still have to pay their workers. or they can lay them off. and they (the company) has to pay the cost of the research too.

      its a double jeapardy burden on the company, effectively punishing them for "doing the right thing"... and you think that's right and fair?

      It might be better with a bigger government that would then pay for the excavations... Or if you prefer small governments make a law such as this... And if companies can't deal with the risk of the business environment they operate in then either they shouldn't operate there or they should ensure themselves against such eventualities...

      I don't think it is unusual to ensure against building on a toxic ground, fire or one of the many other things that only goes wrong occasionally, but incurs a big cost when they do. That's what insurance is for... If people isn't responsible enough to ensure, when necessary, a bigger government is a possible the solution.
      Other solution is to make a law that an insurance is required, and so forth...

    102. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There "might be interesting archaeology" *ANYWHERE* and *EVERYWHERE*. For example, they just found King Richard under a freaking parking lot.

    103. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      Depending on where you're at of course. Some have the authority to have it done for you and bill you for it.

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    104. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by DM9290 · · Score: 1

      while the project is held up they arent making money. yet they still have to pay their workers. or they can lay them off. and they (the company) has to pay the cost of the research too.

      its a double jeapardy burden on the company, effectively punishing them for "doing the right thing"... and you think that's right and fair?

      bugger off.

      its like the morons around here who all of a sudden want to "make it a law for everyone to have tornado shelters....but they have to pay for it them themselves". if "the law" wants to require people to do something that costs money, then "the law" needs to pay for it. otherwise "the law" can go bugger itself.

      The company knew or should have known its legal obligation before spending a single penny on anything. Whatever they found AFTER they started work, could have been found prior to starting work.

      An obligation to obey the law, is not a punishment. It is a responsibility and if you don't like it then all you need to do is get the law changed or work in a different industry with different risks. Perhaps selling used cars rather than excavation.

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    105. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Around these parts, construction companies are supposed to pull out buried oil tanks and properly dispose of them.

      I guarantee, that, if you check under any construction that was done over the site of a gas station, you'll find a full set of tanks (many with gasoline still in them).

      The only exception is when the project is near a school. There, the state generally sends someone over to make sure the tanks get yanked out.

    106. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Solandri · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I *slightly* disagree. It's entirely appropriate that construction companies be required to preserve historic artifacts. What's not appropriate is that *particular* construction companies be so required. That's, as mentioned, counter productive, and places the burden on those who are conscientious.

      Costs should be borne by the beneficiaries. If it's the public which is going to benefit from an archeological find, then it's the public which should bear the cost, not the construction company. It is not just inappropriate, but also immoral and dysfunctional to require a non-beneficiary to bear the costs of a situation they did not create.

      Once you start making someone other than the beneficiary bear the cost, you get into all sorts of trouble. Whether it be bailouts for bankers who took too many risks, or people living perennially on welfare. The moment cost is decoupled from benefit, you can lose all sense of scale between cost and benefit. The beneficiaries don't bear the cost so it becomes a game of seeing how much they can get away with, and those bearing the cost start to get upset at taxation without representation and threaten to revolt.

      Having the beneficiary bear the cost also makes the cost-benefit analysis crystal clear. If each discovered archeological site costs $5 million to process, but only yields $1 million worth of cultural preservation, then clearly the processing method needs to be refined to lower its cost. If it's the public footing the bill, then the government agency paying for it has an incentive to streamline the processing and their costs. If the construction companies are footing the bill, then there's no incentive for the government agency to do any streamlining.

      That said, I'm not sure it should be legal to sell or rent properties lacking a tornado shelter in areas where a tornado is likely. You may not be able to install it due to lack of finances, but this doesn't mean you should be able to transfer the problem to someone else. Perhaps sale should be allowed if the purchaser signed a clear statement in 14 point type saying (approximately) "I understand that the state believes living in this place is unsafe due to the lack of a tornado shelter.".

      Despite the recent news, tornadoes and especially injuries and deaths from tornadoes are actually pretty rare. If tornadoes kill 75 people per year on average, and you require all ~50 million residences in the tornado-prone areas to build $5000 shelters, and the average home lasts 50 years, you're mandating a cost of ($5000 per home * 50 million homes / (50 years * 75 people/year) ) = $67 million per life saved.

      Given that the lifetime productivity of an average person is only $2-$3 million, a tornado shelter requirement would result in a net decrease in the standard of living. i.e. About 22-33 lifetimes' worth of productivity is being spent to save one life, instead of being used on other things which could save a lot more lives.

      Renting is, however, a separate problem. Landlords have a long history of totally ignoring the safety of their tennants, so I don't think they should be granted ANY slack.

      If you've actually been a landlord, you would also know that it's equally true that renters have a long history of totally ignoring the integrity and safety of the landlord's property. I've seen everything from tenants painting over a mold problem caused by a leak they didn't want to bother to fix or report, to cutting structural beams and "repairing" them in an unsound manner, to adding plumbing and electrical wiring which didn't comply with code without telling the landlord, to just plain leaving a mess when they leave which costs the landlord far more than the security deposit to dispose of in a way which complies with local environmental regulations.

      Yes there are bad

    107. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The catholic church abandoned the use of latin during masses in the Second Vatican Council in 1965. Your knowledge of the catholic church is about 50 years out of date.

    108. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Mabhatter · · Score: 1

      The intent is not to disturb the remains. So covering them in cement if you "think" they might be there is an intended result.

    109. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by dargaud · · Score: 1

      while the project is held up they arent making money. yet they still have to pay their workers. or they can lay them off. and they (the company) has to pay the cost of the research too.

      Easy fix: customary insurance in case this happens.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    110. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How did hubby take the news? I love it when neighbors get all uppity about something and think they have to call the cops at the drop of the hat. My policy is to be reasonable, be gracious, and be direct. No need to get the authorities involved unless things get out of hand.

    111. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's one thing when public safety is at stake. If the state wants stuff that's nice to have, it can bloody well pay for it.

    112. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And once news gets around of this incident, the same thing will start happening in Canada.

      *Start* happening? This incident is classic Canadian government psychotic over-regulation. It's pretty insane in the U.S. sometimes (e.g. NYC Building Permits are more complex than quantum mechanics), but Canada does a lot of really insane things. You need an HVAC inspection with new construction that doesn't have HVAC systems, for example. Everyone in government above a certain level has to learn French, even though most of the country doesn't use it and most of the government doesn't use it in their jobs--and the government will *PAY* for them to learn French.

      Home inspections are under the authority of municipal governments. They determine what inspections are necessary for new construction and renovations, and tend to vary quite wildly from city to city and even inspector to inspector. :)

      The fact is that Canada is a bilingual country, with two official languages of the government. The fact that a French-only speaking citizen may enter a federal department and get assistance in his native language may be an unnecessary cost, but about 22% of the population speak French only. Although technically that aligns with your use of the word "most", there would still be 5.9 million people that would be under served by not being able to access government services in French.

      I'm not French native, but an Anglophone from Quebec, but I speak French fluently, and I enjoy being able to converse with government employees in either language.

      It's part of our culture. Love it, or not... Just try to imagine what it would be like to get assistance from someone without speaking the language while in your own town...

    113. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Costs should be borne by the beneficiaries. If it's the public which is going to benefit from an archeological find, then it's the public which should bear the cost, not the construction company. It is not just inappropriate, but also immoral and dysfunctional to require a non-beneficiary to bear the costs of a situation they did not create.

      What a load of crap. It is the construction company that benefits from the digging, so they should be the ones who pay.

    114. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Why shouldn't the government pay for all of those things?

      Because the "government" doesn't pay for anything. They simply spend the money that the people must pay them through taxation.

    115. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by OldSoldier · · Score: 3, Informative

      if "the law" wants to require people to do something that costs money, then "the law" needs to pay for it. otherwise "the law" can go bugger itself.

      Stupid building codes, driver's permits, garbage collection, always making ME pay for them.

      Usually codes like the one the OP cited only apply to new construction, retroactively requiring a tornado shelter on an existing building is hardly ever done in the US. However, stupid shit still is done... we remodeled our house and even though we didn't change the number of plumbing fixtures we had to bring our septic system up to current code. To make matters worse, the county did not certify the old drain field because "the soils were disturbed" ... no duh, there's a SEPTIC field there. So at great expense we had to completely install a new septic field.

    116. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Like I implied, odds are the government would quickly decide that those artifacts aren't really all that valuable to avoid just that issue. Like anything it's a balancing game.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    117. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by EdZ · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You are not required to build something, thus this example is not valid.

      Don't want to deal with archaeological finds at your dig? You don't have to build anything, thus this example is not valid!

    118. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1
      From all appearances, he didn't fill it with cement, he walled it off, which has at least 4 advantages.
      • The limestone cave, with which the south is riddled, is left undamaged.
      • The cave is not defiled by current investigators, who are likely to be incompetent compared to investigators who will look at the cave when it is rediscovered in a few hundred years.
      • The time and money of whoever would investigate is not being wasted on something likely to be worthless.
      • The time and money of both the builder and the owner is not being wasted.

      undocumented, potentially important history (which belongs to us all)

      There isn't a square inch of Earth which doesn't fit that description. This is just the noise of an interfering fussbudget, exaggerating the importance of his own pet peeve.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    119. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks. We aren't actually stupid, though.

    120. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      And? What's your point? If it furthers the public good, and won't get funded any other way, isn't it a good thing that the government steps in?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    121. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I pretended it was an 'unknown caller'. Let him hear me discussing my plans with my friends r.e. letting the lawn go until the day before the city would have started moving forward on mowing and how it would have been done weeks earlier except for the call to code. Truth be told the lawn was looking _real_ bad by the time I mowed it.

      I didn't have to explicitly call him out on his vehicles. Again he 'overheard' me discussing all the other code violations on all the lots, and how nobody in the neighborhood would call the code guys; they'd mention it over poker/fence if they were pissed over something. Still I'm sure he heard me discussing how much it would cost him to rent commercial vehicle parking if the code guy looked at him crooked, in the context of 'he would never be stupid enough to call code, he's got a small business worth of service vehicles on his lot, he's the new guy and I sell some of the local patrol cops and their parents "California medicine".' Truth is he's OK, he just had to explain to his wife that we were on 'horse properties' not 'pretentious suburbs' (the 'medicine' patch is just a fact of life, not even a code violation).

      No calls sense.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    122. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Sure they will eventually brush hog your lot and charge you. To prevent a fire hazard.

      HOAs will get their panties in a bunch if you so much as plant an unauthorized plant species, use an unauthorized paint color or park a car in the driveway.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    123. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. The government should reimburse companies, developers for their lost time and money as required by the Constitution.

      That's Republican thinking right there. Government spending without taxation. And, pray tell us, where does the money to cover that come from? I'd bet on tons of artifacts being "found" whenever there's a delay, or the crew wants a three day weekend, or the owner a new yacht...

    124. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Question for you:

      Are you responsible for the property you own?

      If I own land next to you and I decide to pile it with gasoline, dry brush and lightning rods, should you have any legal recourse?

      How about if I build a factory and dump radioactive toxic biohazardous medical waste on it? Should I have to clean it up?

      Ok, now how about I did that , covered it with 6" of dirt and then sold it to you last week? Are you responsible as the new owner, or is only the old owner responsible?

      Ok, now how about if I sold it to a company with no other assets before poisoning it, and then that penniless hollowed out company sells it to you?

      Who pays now?

      It's more complicated when you think about it. People get together and make (bad) decisions and we live with it. We call that government and try to avoid the sociopaths in the last example. It doesn't always work.

    125. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Yet the jebbies made me waste two years of my youth studying that crap. It is fading to obscurity, slowly. In the old days they would burn you at the stake just for having an unauthorized translation of the bible. Vatican II was only the most recent step of them being force to let go of Latin.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    126. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Dracul · · Score: 1

      Problem is the vast majority of archaeological finds are intrinsically worthless unless you're an archaeologist, the owner ends up paying for information to advance the careers of the archaeologist (who do you think got these laws written). If they really wanted to get the cultural heritage they (archaeologists or the Government on societies behalf) should pay for cost of obtaining the information and leave the owner with their property rights preserved. If something is valuable and the archaeologist/Government wants to put it in a museum they should pay the real value. If I own the land, it and everything on it is mine, anything else is just vested interests getting greedy and stealing from me... simple laws protect everyone, complex laws benefit the rich and the lawyers.

    127. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go look up the definition of 'risk' in ISO31000. You want all the sweet, sweet moolah for digging stuff out of the ground? Then you get to shoulder the risks - including legislative risk, and the costs of compliance.

    128. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by ralphaostrander · · Score: 1

      I defy you to give one example of a law written by a legislator and not a corporation for their own self interests no including political score card ones like abortion. Some of them while having earned a pension not a 401k like the rest of us and in only 10 years have never had a bill actually become law. If you write me in for president I will make sure no politician gets anything more than a 401k. Just kidding I leave that up to another fool.

    129. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by SnarfQuest · · Score: 0

      If you pay for it, then shouldn't it belong to you.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    130. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Archaeologists are likely to insist that all findings be photographed and measured in situ, and the entire cave be dug out with low pressure air and camel's hair brushes. A big find might halt production for years or indefinitely.

      Unless you know in advance how "authorities" are going to react, it's pretty much a crap shoot.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    131. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      It doesn't fix the problem. The problem is that people are required to bankrupt their company (and often themselves) in order to do the "right thing". If the government wants the land after something like that is found, then they should pay market rate and eminent domain it.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    132. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I dock you 2 letter grades for the longest run-on sentence in history...

    133. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      It was more like lazy law making. It was easier to wave off the cost onto the person running into the cave than to structure the law as such that it funded any type of loss or archaeological expedition.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    134. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      I prefer a combination of 2 and 3: The landowner must report on any archaelogical finds; the government must bear the cost of the preliminary inspection. If the government then declares the find is of public interest, the landowner gets first option on paying for a private dig and claiming anything found to donate or sell but not destroy. If the landowner declines this option then government should justly compensate the landowner according to the usual laws for eminent domain.

    135. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by marcosdumay · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, I live in Brazil. Here, the legislators are a caste on their own. When they say "quack like a duck", corporations quack. But even at the US, they create laws based on self interest, it's only that your legislator's self interest tells them to obey the corportations.

      Anyway, I pay a lot more for my pension than private workers pay for they retirement here. And probably none of us will get it back in 30 years.

    136. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people are expected to foot the bill if they report something, what do you expect? The majority of people WILL not report it for the fear of major inconvenience and cost they are left with.

    137. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there really that much grass in Saudi Arabia where you live? In the US, men don't own their wives so they can't 'curb their bitches'. I love the freedom we have here, and I hope your country comes around to recognizing human rights soon.

    138. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, but when a tornado comes tearing through you little Oklahoma town no one comes to help and you don't get to complain.

    139. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck you then, let it get covered in concrete.

    140. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The property "owner" IS the beneficiary. First, they are allowed to "own" that "property." Secondly, in many instances, an archeological find would result in an eminent domain claim - now they just need to insure safe recovery.

      Sorry, but we allow you to benefit from the concept of private property. Don't bitch when you have to participate.

    141. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same society that values you not being forced off your "property" by the nearest person with the biggest gun is what values that artifact. Perhaps we should remember how much you want to contribute when your neighbor annexes your yard - should you have to pay for the police response?

    142. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you are incapable of parsing a paragraph.

    143. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it belongs to us all, and we value it so highly, we should pay for it.

    144. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 0

      I dock you two Googles for a failure to search before using hyperbole.

    145. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While the artifacts may be damaged and hard to get to, they are probably very well preserved in the concrete for future generations to grave rob.

    146. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      And? What's your point? If it furthers the public good, and won't get funded any other way, isn't it a good thing that the government steps in?

      Because the government has a huge amount of overhead before it actually spends the money on anything beneficial for you and me. If even more things are going to be paid through taxation, then we will need to be paying in even more. Honestly, I wouldn't mind paying more if we got the benefits that many countries in the EU get for their money. But we don't. Extra money seems to get siphoned off into someone's pet project rather than where should go.

      Garbage collection is getting paid by us now. Why do we need to add an extra layer of bureaucracy? You can't possibly believe more people having their hands out is going to be more cost efficient.

      How is having driving permits paid by "the government" going to be better? I don't know what the DMV is like in your state as they have ranged from dreadful to acceptable in the various states I've lived in. When I lived in Pennsylvania I think they would have designed the place like something in the styling of M.C. Escher if the universe would allow for it.. I can't imagine what another layer like the IRS would do to this. And why does everyone deserve a drivers license? If you can't afford the cost of a license how in the hell are you going to buy a car to drive anyhow?

      We already pay the local government agencies to come up with building codes. What more should they pay for?

      Now healthcare. Yes, that should be something we don't have to worry about. But look at the colossal fuck up we got in place now. We had the executive and both houses of the legislative branch of government in agreement about this and they used reconciliation to get it through the senate. Instead of giving us a single payer system that could have been so simple to do, we got, well we're still not sure what in the hell we got out of it.

      Sorry if I came across as attacking you or something. But I talk to so many people who think the government is some endless pit of money that should just give them shit and that money materializes out of thin air.

    147. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Thanks. We aren't actually stupid, though.

      Perhaps. But it's my experience that 3 out of 5 people I talk to that think the government should just give them shit are that stupid.

    148. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      People used to believe that free market could come up with a thing called "insurance" for that kind of cases. But free market supposes also that all actors are law-abiding.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    149. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why the fuck did you let them get away with that?

    150. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have it backwards. The owner owns the property. The government is an interloper who is only tolerated, and should be deposed if it makes excessive demands. Sic semper tyrannis!

    151. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you insane, stupid, or just ignorant? If there was no government there would be no property ownership in the first place. Anyone could walk in and run you off, killing you in the process if necessary, and there would be nothing you could do. Don't spout nonsense of using force, since the one walking in would just bring more of it.

      You are an idiot, regardless of reason.

    152. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if people do not wish to pay the cost of archeolagy on their land they will factor that into the price they're willing to pay. That's how the FREE market works as defined by the constitutian.

      roman_mir

    153. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by delt0r · · Score: 1

      ..potentially important history (which belongs to us all)..

      Then all of us (the tax payer) should pay for it.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    154. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Didn't say that. I said that WE, as a society should pay for this if WE as a society consider it valuable. I don't think it makes sense, or just, to force the landowners to pay out-of-pocket for this.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    155. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That may be the case, but it's not how it's supposed to be. The government does not grant favors or rights, but protects the rights people already have. If the government is the one giving rights, then it can turn around and take them away again.

    156. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are the law. Go take a civics lesson.

    157. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tornado shelters, when built at the same time as the structure cost little and and the cost is amortized. Retrofitting is expensive. Tornadoes do happen, they happen repeatedly over a large area of the US, Typically the warning doesn't have enough lead time for people to get to a community shelter, especially in rural areas. Building a tornado shelter into new construction as a provision in the building codes in tornado prone areas is the same as the provisions in the building codes in areas with earthquakes or areas with hurricanes. It makes the structure safer for the people in it, and reduces cost to the local government in case of disaster, and we fund the government.

    158. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's important, obviously, is that we have laws regulating all this. Only then can we have a perfect society. Because laws are more important than money, or people.

    159. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      You do realize you're trying to compare deliberate acts of negligence to a happenstance predating modern ownership of that land... So, disregarding that "question" is really a shotgun of questions trying to get whatever response you're after, let's dig in! Yes, yes, not sure if that one's a question, yes, again not sure what the question is, yes but as the new owner I'd have legal recourse to sue you for damages in court, now you're just repeating that one movie with that one chick, you do.

      Now, if you happened up on a mammoth tusk and the government demanded you dig it out to give to a museum at your own expense... I think I'd have a different answer.

      Any further questions?

      --
      +1 Disagree
    160. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consider: a law is set in motion and it seems like a good idea at the time to someone; that is they have a real intent and honest motivation. Evidence that the law is having the opposite effect of its original intent comes years later. Ideally, the law would then be removed. Of course, you then need someone to remove the law. Who will step up to the plate and face the political consequences of informing a mixed informed public? None of this scenario requires malicious intent. Assume, there is one. The benign intent is stated in the law. What would be the malicious or 'real' intent of this law? If one is not stated and supported it seems to be just as rational to assume unintended consequences. This could be due to a new generation of naive law-makers, who think they know what they are doing or the final result of a law created by a committee that makes no sense at law. Hence, there may be no single real intent.

    161. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      The government does not grant favors or rights, but protects the rights people already have.

      That's just a story people tell, no more connected to reality than the legend of Santa Claus.

      The governments is a collection of people who tell everybody else what to do and not to do, employ other people to enforce their decisions using violence if necessary, and get away with it.

      There is no difference in legitimacy between a government and a mafia; governments just give their employees nicer costumes and invented culture so they could distract everyone from their essential nature using mythology and pageantry.

    162. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Santa Claus is a legend?

    163. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      Only because people like you failed to act with integrity.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    164. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by mikael · · Score: 1

      Or they get free advertising for having the artifacts placed in a museum and a finders fee for discovering those items.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    165. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... if "the law" wants to require people to do something that costs money, then "the law" needs to pay for it. otherwise "the law" can go bugger itself.

      Kind of like the "Affordable Care Act"?

    166. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He could have used ObamaCare as a classic example of government mandating you purchase you might not be able to afford. Of course that would sound political and /. would never allow that to happen.

      8^]

    167. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Skynyrd · · Score: 1

      You are not required to have a driver's permit, thus this example is not valid.

      You are not required to build something, thus this example is not valid.

      You are not required to create garbage, thus this example is not valid.

      Sorry, but if you do something that influences other people (and all three, driving, building and creating garbage do so massively), you are required to follow rules negotiated by the people (maY it be by elections, petitions and writing your member of congress, or via written or unwritten contracts) you are influencing.

      If you want to drive around, build something or litter as you want without any restrictions, go, find some place where you are disturbing no one else, and do it there.

      I am not required to create garbage, but the city I live in has mandatory garbage collection. You must (by law) subscribe to the service, and pay for it.

    168. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as the new owner I'd have legal recourse to sue you for damages in court, now you're just repeating that one movie with that one chick, you do.

      Thanks for replying to my anon.

      My example was extreme for clarity, adding in other variables (subcontractors, some poor schmuck who takes the job to feed his family and rubber stamps approvals (aka the West Texas patsy who might eventually see a jail threat), etc, just muddies the water.

      Liability through a civil suit sounds great, but there's the catch. You can't sue me, I wasn't the direct former owner so you can't prove I knew anything, even if I did. You have to sue what amounts to a shell corporation, which is judgement proof through lack of assets, even if I was a sociopath. It doesn't matter at this point if it was deliberate or not, or if it was 15 owners/generations back in time when the damage happened. At this point, you, as the current owner, are liable for cleanup costs for problem discovered during your ownership. It's not the government's fault if you don't buy insurance or otherwise fail to do due diligence to mitigate the risks you, as a property owner, are taking. Don't make the rest of society pay for the risks you took when they don't pan out ala Wall Street. Private profits and socialized risks are a terrible recipe, almost as bad as private risks and socialized profits/benefits (because at least the private risk taker gets the socialized benefits too - clean air, etc).

      You didn't know? Not my problem. Too expensive to mitigate the risk? Don't take the risk of owning, rent land from someone else instead. But please don't try to have it both ways. First order implications aren't always in alignment with more powerful second order impacts...

      Now, if you happened up on a mammoth tusk and the government demanded you dig it out to give to a museum at your own expense... I think I'd have a different answer.

      Any further questions?

    169. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus christ, we're talking about laws in place to stop builders from paving over priceless artefacts. Leave the infantile empty libertarian-esque slogans at the door for just a little while, would you?

      Otherwise I'll start posting "Hey, ho! GTFO!" in response to all your posts.

    170. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by DFCollet · · Score: 1

      But, if you read the article (what? On /. Never) - you will see that there are avenues of redress. Specifically a government body that will reimburse the couple for their costs if they are found to be truly burdened by such costs.

      Also, the First Nations group also is contributing to the cost of preserving some portion of their history, even if this was simply a death resulting from a nomadic life style.

      I don't believe that Ontario, Canada is the only jurisdiction that will offer such support. Many times it comes in the form of private foundations interested in this but it also comes from the governments that mandate the preservation of historical artifacts.

      Interesting as it is, it is not solely the responsibility of the couple who 'did the right thing'.

      --
      The truly loyal subject will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures.
    171. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      Obviously you have many valuable and accurate points to add to this conversation, which is why you advance your position with insults and threats.

    172. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      My first construction job was in Texas in an area where the was a lot of limestone and caves. If the construction hit a cave,

      ... then you sued the person who had done the site investigation before you went ahead with the detailed planning. You know - the guy who charged a couple of thousand dollars to run over the site on a 5m spacing with a GPR machine and tell you about size and location of voids before you paid the seller for the land, and before you hired an architect to plan the building.

      I believe the phrase that you're looking for is "due diligence".

      You do plan things before you commit to spending money, don't you?

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    173. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      its a double jeapardy burden on the company, effectively punishing them for "doing the right thing"...

      Nope, it's a punishment on the company for not having done their necessary and appropriate checks before starting the project.

      Did you miss the bit where the OP said that he lived in an area where the presence of caves is known? So ... I'll speak slowly, and use short words ... you manage the big risk (of down time in the middle of the job) by paying an insurance premium (a small, known risk) either to an insurance company, or by paying for geophysical (hmmm, long word - try "technical"?) investigation early in the project.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    174. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      we're talking about an archeological dig, and putting an undue burden on a family,

      Actually, as I understand TFS, we're talking about a domestic maintenance (building / repairing a fence) which unexpectedly turned into an archaeological dig. And the required standards for a dig have significant associated costs.

      Which does sound a bit harsh. And frankly, that sounds like an ideal case for specialist insurance. If you're spending (say) #1000 on materials, equipment hire and labour to build a fence ... then #50 or so for insurance against unexpected costs like this is not unreasonable.

      As someone who's new home has a bit of a fencing problem which I'm going to have to sort out with the neighbour's landlord ... and since I don't know where water, power, sewage or telephone lines run ... then I'll be bearing this in mind. Although I think that such "incidental" site investigations are dealt with (locally) from general taxation for domestic situations like this. For a commercial site development, I assume the risk goes onto the developer.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    175. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      Where do you think the government's money comes from?

      You're actually saying you want all your peers to pay for it...

    176. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And once news gets around of this incident, the same thing will start happening in Canada.

      The coal mines in southern BC will just blast away dinosaur bones they find in their open pit coal mine to avoid the downtime an archaeological investigation would take.

    177. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It is a benefit to community as a whole, so if it's worthwhile, the community as a whole can pay for it.

    178. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great response.

      I would add two things.

      #1. People choose to live in areas where there are tornadoes, just as I chose to live in an area that is frequented by Hurricanes. I don't need the government's assistance in making sound decisions related to my safety.

      #2. Great thing about living in a society where you have the freedom to choose what you buy or rent is that you can say NO. If the landlord does not provide a house that you feel safe living in.... DON'T rent it. When people stop renting homes that don't meet their basic needs the landlord is forced to update the home. I have been a landlord and I have always followed one simple rule (as do other businesses): If my customer does not require a particular service or ammenity, why would I spend money on it? It's just good business sense. Nobody stays in business by wasting money (except the government or those that they bail out). When my government can learn how to successfully do simple things like deliver the mail and maintain roads with some sense of fiscal responsibility I will be willing to listen to (not necessarily follow) their advice on other subjects.

    179. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      ...wouldn't the free market "as defined by the constitutian" say it's OK to just let the sleeping bones lie and build the damn fence right over them?

      O crap, I think I just got tricked into feeding the trolls. Sorry everybody :(

      --
      +1 Disagree
    180. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they're being destroyed by your laziness and greed. If you want those places/objects saved, you have to pay for it. Pass all the laws you like, it ain't gonna work unless you pay for it. This law does not preserve places or objects. It makes us want to destroy them, so we don't have to pay for your fun. Now that this story is out, every 'place or object' you want to save will be destroyed, for fear of having to pay for it.

    181. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > its like the morons around here who all of a sudden want to "make it a law for everyone to have tornado shelters....but they have to pay for it them themselves".

      On the other hand, if you DON'T build a tornado shelter and a tornado kills you and your family and destroys your property, then who is supposed to pay for it, instead? Suppose the morons around there decided to build a municipal tornado shelter, instead. NO one would have to pay for that, right? It would just be free, right?

    182. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With regards to option 2:

      that sound nice, but what if it turns out the artifacts are virtually worthless (I can't imagine a broken piece of a very common type of pottery can be valued very high) and the landowner still has to pay for it and he is at a loss?

    183. Re: Don't Do The Dig ... by haystor · · Score: 1

      We pay regularly for police response. We don't pay one big bill after the police show up. You present exactly the opposite case of how the environmental bills are split up (or not split up). We bear the costs of police, fire, education as a society. Some bones show up on a property which are deemed valuable to society (deemed valuable by some small group and some bureaucrats in actuality) and single land owners are responsible for the whole cost.

      --
      t
    184. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "Your former employer filled undocumented, potentially important history (which belongs to us all) with cement."

      If the potentially unimportant history belongs to us all then us all should be paying the cost to investigate and preserve it. As long as the costs of society are unfairly offloaded onto the shoulders of individuals society has no room to complain when they try to subvert those costs. This is why we have taxes. Presumably those individuals are paying their fair share according to the tax code, that should be the ONLY time they have to pay money for the benefit of society or for any sort of society provided service.

      Things like this and feels for government services, id cards, plate registration, tolls, etc are just ways for some people to avoid paying their share of taxes. Someone who made a billion dollars this year undoubtedly required a massive utilization of infrastructure, police protection, legal structure, etc either directly or indirectly to make that possible while someone who made $20,000 likely worked for him, used a tiny fraction of that, and gained only a small fraction of the benefit from what he did use. Why exactly is it appropriate for them to pay an equal toll to drive on a road that is part of that infrastructure? It isn't, the toll exists so the man who made a billion can pay far less than his share at the expense of the man who made $20,000.

    185. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      That sort of story just makes me glad I moved out of the suburbs into the country.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    186. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obrigado por ajudar a economizar o meu dinheiro!

    187. Re:Don't Do The Dig ... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      This is why I'm for strengthening, not weakening, the takings clause.

      If The People, in their infinite wisdom, think something is So Damned Important, they they should pay for it. Just like Police or Fire departments.

      Same goes for environmemtal study burdens. Seriously. It ends the fraud of grinding things to a halt becaise someone can't afford the studies and lawyers.

      If it's so damned important to The People, The People should pay for it. Remember, we've merely ended the unofficial reason for these laws, stopping hings by fiinancial burden. Which every citizen should be disgusted by.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  2. OH CANADA! by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Funny

    Think you found the bones of someone who was murdered in Canada? Better be safe: Help the original killer by reburying the bones somewhere else. Thank you for your cooperation, Citizen.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:OH CANADA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In this case, I am pretty sure the original killer no longer needs their help.

    2. Re:OH CANADA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      In this case, I am pretty sure the original killer no longer needs their help.

      The killer may have been a vampire who's still aimlessly roaming the Earth today, you insensitive clod!

    3. Re:OH CANADA! by atom1c · · Score: 1

      This is just Ontario. They're very (different kind of) special in that province.

    4. Re:OH CANADA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly what I thought, cheaper just no not report the body.

    5. Re:OH CANADA! by ameen.ross · · Score: 1

      Oh surely not, because
      *WOOSH*

      --
      $(echo cm0gLXJmIC8= | base64 --decode)
    6. Re:OH CANADA! by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Informative

      I uhh, didn't mean for this to be 'funny'. I'm deadly serious: The law of unintended consequences is working overtime here. This is another classic example of how strict liability laws cause grave injustices. In the ideal case, nobody should ever be punished for trying to do the right think, contacting proper authorities, and generally taking personal responsibility for reporting a possible crime or public safety concern, or in cases where there is immediate threat to life, taking action -- even if such action in hindsight is later determined to have been unnecessary, incomplete, etc.

      Laws like this take away a person's incentive and motivation to do good by others. To take personal responsibility. To be good citizens.

      While its intent may have been to protect burial sites, etc., a noble idea... the actual effect has been to punish a living, responsible, contributing member of society for disturbing inanimate objects with no intrinsic value. It is, in effect, a form of religious bigotry -- not everyone believes that the remains of the dead have value, and nature doesn't give a damn... it recycles you when you're dead. And the judges' hands are tied on this because in strict liability cases, mens rea can't be considered -- that is, your motivation is totally irrelevant. I mean, even if it's to save lives, you're still just as guilty as if you'd done it out of pure malice and hatred.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    7. Re:OH CANADA! by yndrd1984 · · Score: 1

      In this case, I am pretty sure the original killer no longer needs their help.

      Yeah, and I'm sure they were qualified to do a proper forensic investigation to determine that.

    8. Re:OH CANADA! by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      If you find a body and it has no fillings in the teeth, for fucks sake don't report it. Shovel, Shutup and sell the artifacts.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    9. Re:OH CANADA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could have been Quebec. They're special with a capital 'R'.

    10. Re:OH CANADA! by kimvette · · Score: 2

      So, it's safe to assume you're on team Edward?

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    11. Re:OH CANADA! by girlintraining · · Score: 2

      So, it's safe to assume you're on team Edward?

      Team Guy Who Almost Hit Bella With a Car, actually.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    12. Re:OH CANADA! by Ol+Biscuitbarrel · · Score: 1

      Maybe he's Rowsdower.

    13. Re:OH CANADA! by Anachragnome · · Score: 1

      "... the actual effect has been to punish a living, responsible, contributing member of society for disturbing inanimate objects with no intrinsic value."

      For this reason alone I have already made it clear to my family that I want to be cremated when I no longer need this body--anything else will eventually make me a burden on someone further along the timeline.

      I do not like the idea of cremation--by today's standards--as it still leaves my family with the cost of paying someone thousands of dollars to turn me into ash, but the alternatives are illegal where I live. I was going to suggest they simply buy a used, beat-up dingy (kinda like me..), load it up with some good hardwood, lay me on top, strike the match and shove it out to sea. But after reading this nonsense in TFA, I realize that a charred, human tibia washing up on someone's clambake would end up wasting a lot more money.

      On another note, most people buried in the U.S. of A. are buried in "vaults"--cement sarcophagi that the coffin is placed into--and so the idea of being recycled by Mother Nature is misleading. You don't so much turn into dirt as into a dried-out husk wearing pretty clothes.

    14. Re:OH CANADA! by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      How brilliantly obscure.

    15. Re:OH CANADA! by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Abzug? Shame on you for missing.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    16. Re:OH CANADA! by billd10 · · Score: 0

      Apparently it costs big bucks to be a good citizen in Canada. Isn't it every citizen's job to do the government's work for them when the government is broke?

  3. Come on now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    ...what is this, the telegraph? reddit? Not news, not for nerds, definitely doesn't matter. All the headline is missing is a punctuation mark, and a more sensationalized headline, and we could call it /r/circlejerk

    1. Re:Come on now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I sometimes get annoyed when people bitch about articles being offtopic for Slashdot, but I have to agree in this case. This isn't big news, and it's not tech. Why is this here?

      Wait, I know why it is here. It got voted up. Well, you can thank your fellow readers.

    2. Re:Come on now... by kannibal_klown · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      ...what is this, the telegraph? reddit? Not news, not for nerds, definitely doesn't matter. All the headline is missing is a punctuation mark, and a more sensationalized headline, and we could call it /r/circlejerk

      I guess there's the science aspect of archaeology in there, and there are some archaeology nerds out there.

      Like an A/C responded below, I usually get annoyed when people whine about Article X being posted on slashdot. Especially when there's obviously a science-angle or fuel for a techie debate within the contents.

      But I have to admit... this one is kind of pushing it. It's more of like a CNN or Local-News blurb to fill in 3 minutes of air time.

    3. Re:Come on now... by JMJimmy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ethics and injustice tend to be topics geeks like, especially when it pertains to unusual subject matter.

  4. So the correct action is... by BenJeremy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Throw the bones away in the trash.

    Likewise, property owners frustrated with the US's endangered species act find it's easier to hunt and kill such species on their property, rather than lose access to that property.

    Isn't it wonderful, how well all this legislation to protect historical or ecological treasure works?

    1. Re:So the correct action is... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 2

      Yep, for a while over in Africa they cut the horns off rhino's to stop poachers. The result? The poachers still spent days tracking an animal only to find out it didn't have a horn - so they killed it anyway out of spite.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    2. Re:So the correct action is... by geoffrobinson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're missing the point.

      A better analogy would be someone would like to feed a homeless person but gets a fine from the government for having a food catering business without a license.

      --
      Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    3. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, there is at least the upside that the poachers didn't make any money of it.

    4. Re:So the correct action is... by Jodka · · Score: 4, Informative

      ... property owners frustrated with the US's endangered species act find it's easier to hunt and kill such species on their property, rather than lose access to that property.

      The term for this is "shoot, shovel and shut up."

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    5. Re:So the correct action is... by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      I don't doubt that happened sometimes, but what was the net effect? No law or policy is ever perfect.

    6. Re:So the correct action is... by operagost · · Score: 1

      Only if you objective is to be a griefer, rather than discourage rhino poaching.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    7. Re:So the correct action is... by PPH · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think they are changing their tactics. They are poisoning the rhino horns in such a manner as not to harm the rhino, but to sicken* or kill the people who eventually ingest the horn products. It will only require poisoning a few of them and a few resulting deaths making the news to reduce the demand for horn.

      * Its a shame they couldn't find something to render the users impotent. And spread the news that even toughing the horns makes your junk shrivel.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    8. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      White man wonder why he sick and fat.

      Annoyingly, it is mostly what tthey did to the corn we taught them how to plant. They destroyed that too. ;(

      HFCS messes up your ability to tell when you have had enough to eat.

      GMO corn has been discussed here many times related to how it does harm.

    9. Re:So the correct action is... by operagost · · Score: 2

      You mean like this?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    10. Re:So the correct action is... by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      I find it easier to kill those property owners than waiting for the law to deal with them.

      What's good for the goose and all.

      Regulations don't work if people are criminals? What a fucking surprise.

    11. Re:So the correct action is... by ags1 · · Score: 1

      Then they stopped hunting because the return on investment was so poor. The remaining rhinos lived. Sounds like a good plan to me.

    12. Re:So the correct action is... by opus_magnum · · Score: 1

      Didn't they do the something like that during prohibition with stolen industrial alcohol?

    13. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know what you mean. I get frustrated with all the drug dealers, thieves, tire slashers and whatnot in my area so rather than follow the law, I just go out and shoot them rather than lose my right not to be attacked or harassed when I go outside.

      Well, I know it might be offensive to you left-wing maginas here, but when I lived out west (Arizona, New Mexico, and West Texas) we did abide by the three S rule:

      1. Shoot
      2. Shovel
      3. Shut up

      The desert is a big place.

      Now.. in *my* experience it was animals, but go acting like an ass to the wrong person and you get what you get. I know that's anathema to you 'no responsiblity for my own actions let the nanny state take care of it types', but that's the way it is.

    14. Re:So the correct action is... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      That is what I propose we do with you folks. Way more effective than regulation.

    15. Re:So the correct action is... by tofarr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The poachers MAY kill the rhino out of spite, but they may not - If they do, they needlessly jeopardise their future revenue stream - Maybe the hornless rhino will have offspring that have horns which they can kill - Would they cut off their noses to spite their faces? Who knows. Another benefit is that they don't get paid. Sure, they MAY kill the current one, but maybe some of them don't go hunting rhino next time, as there is no profit in it. Despite the fact that people are jerks, Cutting the horns still may make sense - More data is required.

    16. Re:So the correct action is... by dywolf · · Score: 1

      in Atlanta, and most cities, its illegal to give anything to homeless folks.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    17. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the point.

      A better analogy would be someone would like to feed a homeless person but gets a fine from the government for having a food catering business without a license.

      Much like caring for stray cats by simply providing them a food source is a pretty fucking bad idea, so it is with the homeless. If you want to help, be part of the community don't just take one action (that will backfire) and call it a win.

    18. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the real problem that you're dancing around is lack of funding.
      We want to protect these things. Historical finds, endangered species, etc.

      We want them enough to pass laws. Trouble is, laws without funding aren't really laws. They have no teeth. Or worse, they only have teeth sometimes and their enforcement is arbitrary.

      Ideally, the govt would put up the funds to dig sites or rehabilitate endangered species habitat (And purchase said lands outright).. But we know how much certain parties are opposed to the govt doing anything with money. Hell, some of them proudly campaign on he term "defund".

      Instead, we have the clusterfuck we have now. Seems to me it would be cheaper and easier in the long run just to put up the money.. Instead we have dead endangered animals and concrete filled Indian graves, and home owners saddled with bills when they want to build a fence.

    19. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Incorrect. The reason they started killing rhino's was because that made the horns they had in storage much more valuable.

    20. Re:So the correct action is... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was there talking to the actual safari guides. It's what happens.

      And the 'future revenue stream'? Seriously? They kill the rhino to get the horn in the first place...you can't exactly take it off them without doing so, or are you so dense to think the poachers would have tranquilizers and be 'nice' about it?

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    21. Re:So the correct action is... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      Go check rhino populations...it isn't helping.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    22. Re:So the correct action is... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      The horns are used for carvings too, but interesting assuming it works as described.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    23. Re:So the correct action is... by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Regulations don't work if people are criminals? What a fucking surprise.

      Sure they do. They just work slowly. If I break into your house and steal your TV, the odds of me getting caught are pretty low. If I break into a hundred houses and steal their TVs too... chances are good they're going to bust me. When you stop looking at police as a way to prevent crime and instead as a way to deter crime, it becomes quite a bit clearer how it all fits together.

      And for people saying "gun regulation can't work! Only criminals will have guns!", (The classic contemporary anti-regulation argument) I refer them to the fact that gun regulation on the purchase of silencers has been so effective that very few people have them. Regulation does work -- it works by preventing systemic abuse or crime, in the same way that traffic signals can't stop you from driving however you want... but people mostly obey the laws anyway because (a) it actually does keep them safer, and (b) it's a big fat fine and possible loss of driving privileges if you're busted too many times breaking too many laws.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    24. Re:So the correct action is... by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      Maybe folks who object to well-intentioned laws arent cold heardless jerks after all; maybe theres valid reasons to think that "more regulation" isnt the universal right answer.

    25. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry sweetie, I'm already a part of the machine (military). You don't have the balls or the hardware.

    26. Re:So the correct action is... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Lots of people have silencers. You only need to fill out the NFA form and pay a $200 tax.

    27. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is what I propose we do with you folks. Way more effective than regulation.

      Umm, you're not the one with the guns, nor the knowledge to use them.

      You metrosexual, pussified sitzpinkler.

    28. Re:So the correct action is... by yndrd1984 · · Score: 1

      GMO corn has been discussed here many times related to how some people believe that it does harm.

    29. Re:So the correct action is... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Cutting the horns still may make sense

      Dont rhinos generally need those horns?

      Also, if the poacher didnt NEED to kill the rhino to get the horn but historically does anyways, what makes you think they care at all about "needlessly jeopardising their future revenue stream"? How did such a line of reasoning work out with the american bison, how is it working out with fisheries?

      People will hunt an animal to extinction without worrying about what it does to their future revenue stream, this has been shown throughout history, and its not hard to understand. If you are one fisherman, its A) very hard to think that the few fish YOU catch will have a significant impact, and B) hard to "do the right thing" when it means abandoning the way you make a living.

    30. Re:So the correct action is... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Some regulations dont work because people are people, and its stupid to pretend otherwise.

    31. Re:So the correct action is... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      And the 'future revenue stream'? Seriously? They kill the rhino to get the horn in the first place...

      And you missed the rest of his point. Heck, for all we know the poachers often shoot the rhino in the dark before they knew it's had it's horn removed.

      The theory behind reducing profit levels still holds true - would you do X for $10k? What if it's a 50% chance of being 0? Still worth it?

      Personally, I'd allow the responsible ranching of Rhinos combined with sustainable horn harvest; drop the price by an OOM and poaching would be nowhere near as profitable while ranched Rhinos would help pull the species back from endangerment.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    32. Re:So the correct action is... by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

      It's Okay, SCOTUS said we could. They wrote an opinion a few centuries back saying "People say this is really immoral, it probably is really immoral, but we can't say it's really immoral, because the courts of the conqueror are the courts of the conqueror."

    33. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The poachers probably kill the rhino not out of spite, but to be certain they don't accidentally waste time tracking it again.

    34. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and so you become that which you hate.

      I really do love catch-22s.

      "There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch"

    35. Re:So the correct action is... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Stone age people lose to industrial age people. Not news or unusual.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    36. Re:So the correct action is... by ZFox · · Score: 2

      Didn't they do the something like that during prohibition

      They still do exactly this with the practice of denaturing alcohol and also by adding heptatotoxins to opiate medications.

    37. Re:So the correct action is... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      So then we should just be ok with people helping to extinct animals?

      The simple fact is these laws need more teeth. If they find out you killed these animals and disposed of them they should just sieze your property and auction it off. Give the reporter some percentage.

    38. Re:So the correct action is... by ZFox · · Score: 1

      State laws on it vary too. I would have to get permission from the head of my local police jurisdiction, as well.

    39. Re:So the correct action is... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The best thing to do with bums is setup a food kitchen in _your_ neighborhood.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    40. Re:So the correct action is... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Good luck to you. Get a big insurance policy so we don't have to support your spawn.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    41. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The poachers MAY kill the rhino out of spite, but they may not - If they do, they needlessly jeopardise their future revenue stream - Maybe the hornless rhino will have offspring that have horns which they can kill - Would they cut off their noses to spite their faces? Who knows.

      Yeah, poachers who carry automatic weapons and slaughter animals for a horn or a tusk and kill anyone who gets in their way are well known for taking the long view, and are the most assiduous in their husbandry of natural resources.

      Fuckwit.

    42. Re:So the correct action is... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      You are ascribing multi-generational planning to people who are shooting every animal they can find to get at some keratin? Or who shoot gorilla parents so that they can hawk a gorilla baby on the black market? Really? Current data says that you're delusional.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    43. Re:So the correct action is... by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      in Atlanta, and most cities, its illegal to give anything to homeless folks.

      Can't wait to see the official Atlanta City Gov't HomelessPerson ID badge so we know which panhandlers not to give anything to.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    44. Re:So the correct action is... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      The slight problem is that rhinos aren't cows. You can't ranch them in the traditional sense. The only thing you can do is to provide them with the space, the environment and the partners necessary to reproduce, and then hope you don't have to ever get close to them again. That means... wide-open parks that cannot be reasonably policed. Which invites the same poachers.

      That said, I'd also like to see responsible horn harvesting. It can only drop demand for illegally obtained horn. The trick is to make sure people can verify it was responsibly harvested.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    45. Re:So the correct action is... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      So then we should just be ok with people helping to extinct animals?

      I dont think I said that, but making stupid ineffective laws surely is not the answer.

    46. Re:So the correct action is... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      The laws are not totally ineffective. The only reason they are not effective is the low rate of enforcement.

    47. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real problem here are Chinese men who think powdered rhino horn will somehow enlarge their tiny cocks.

      Hell, it isn't as if there are enough women left to fuck in China, and those that are available are screwing white guys.

    48. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Likewise, property owners frustrated with the US's endangered species act find it's easier to hunt and kill such species on their property, rather than lose access to that property.

      Especially when the endangered species in question migrated there in the back of an environmentallist's Volkswagen for the sole purpose of shutting down an entire industry.

    49. Re:So the correct action is... by dywolf · · Score: 1

      i use "homeless" as a generic term. the law in atlanta forbids giving to any panhandlers, homeless, beggars, etc. essentailly no handouts to anyone...by a private citizen anyway.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    50. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GMO corn has been discussed here many times related to how some bee leave does harm.

    51. Re:So the correct action is... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      We need to 3d print rhino horn using hair and finger clippings as feedstock.

      Someone should open a kickstart project.

      Wasn't Viagra supposed to save the rhino/tiger etc. Working boner pills should push out snake oil.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    52. Re:So the correct action is... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      'Silencers' are butt simple. If you need one you make it, then dispose of it before you can get any shit for having it.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    53. Re:So the correct action is... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      The theory behind reducing profit levels still holds true

      Actually it doesn't. By reducing supply, you make the remaining horn (that rangers can't cut off humanely) that much more valuable. It drives more people to try and poach because now it's worth even more. Oh and the horns grow back in 18-24 months, so you have to de-horn the animals repeatedly.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    54. Re:So the correct action is... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      To get a decent rate of enforcement out of some laws you would have to junk any concept of privacy. Those laws are totally ineffective.

      Would a law against fapping be totally ineffective or would it only need better enforcement. OK bad example, a tax on fapping?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    55. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And for people saying "gun regulation can't work! Only criminals will have guns!", (The classic contemporary anti-regulation argument) I refer them to the fact that gun regulation on the purchase of silencers has been so effective that very few people have them.

      Nonsense! Almost everyone has multiple (unregistered) silencers. Who doesn't have a water or soda water bottle, an oil filter, or a pillow? And there are plenty of registered silencers if you want to pay the $200 fee.

    56. Re:So the correct action is... by rea1l1 · · Score: 0
    57. Re:So the correct action is... by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "I refer them to the fact that gun regulation on the purchase of silencers has been so effective that very few people have them"

      Silencers aren't necessary to using a firearm, hence not terribly popular although if you abide by the regs you can purchase and use them in most States.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    58. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually there is a perverse reason for the killing. Some of the dealers, (not the hunters) would like to drive some animals into extinction. Why? They have an extensive supply of illegal animal parts and it would become priceless if there wasn't any more supply. Short sighted? Yes, but they are only thinking in the short term. Once their supply is gone, they will find another species to drive into extinction. More has to be done to find these cretins that think this way.

    59. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "gun regulation can't work! Only criminals will have guns!"

      You obviously dont live in Chicago, where that is EXACTLT the case. Highest murder count in the US.

    60. Re:So the correct action is... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      That would be immoral and stupid.

      At least try to compare like for like. Animal abuse for instance. Which generally only gets used when someone reports you. Which is a reasonable enforcement measure.

      I do not accept that just because you can't enforce a law it is a bad law. That is a flawed premise since we can't stop murder, so why have a law against it?

    61. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plenty of people have silencers, just like handgun use by criminals in england has more than doubled since they banned handguns. The funny thing is a silencer is actually a safety device. It prevents hearing damage, it doesn't actually silence the report just drops it bellow a level that would damage your hearing. But a suppressor (the proper name for them) is quite easy to come by. Do some paperwork, fingerprints and pay a $200 tax. The reason I don't own a suppressor personally has nothing to do with the regulation on buying them but rather on the regulation against using them for hunting here. Home made suppressors are quite easy to manufacture however criminals don't use them as they offer no benefit. They add weight to the gun, they don't do anything like what the movies do. They drop the sound to a level that lets you shoot most guns safely without hearing protection but they don't make it just a whisper like they do on the movies unless you have a low powered bolt action or single shot rifle purpose built to be silent. With semi automatics or high powered rifles it's all about letting you use the firearm without hearing protection.

    62. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      look into a NFA trust, that typically bypasses the CLEO signoff AND fingerprints

    63. Re:So the correct action is... by stymy · · Score: 1

      So if they're gonna kill the rhino either way, at least if its horn was cut off the poachers won't get any money. A proper cost-benefit analysis would be needed to see if tranqing and cutting the horns off rhinos is the best use of money to combat poachers, but long-term it should deter poachers, if most of the time walk away without a horn.

    64. Re:So the correct action is... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      An unenforced or selectively enforced law is a bad law _and_ potentially a mechanism of a police state.

      Any law that requires your privacy be violated to even think about enforcing it is also a bad law.

      Animal abuse laws written by people who got their understanding of nature from a Disney film are also bad laws.

      Not enforced perfectly is not the same thing as not enforced. It is even further from not enforced unless you piss off someone with power.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    65. Re:So the correct action is... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I hunt, I fish, I have kept livestock and yet I fully support animal abuse legislation. You are incredibly ignorant or just stupid.

    66. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People do have silencers...you just can't here them.

    67. Re:So the correct action is... by idontgno · · Score: 1

      What Viagra can't do is increase bloodflow in the brain enough to disbelieve "traditional medicine". More's the shame... I know a lot of people who could use more cerebral circulation.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    68. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government hates competition. It hates it because private enterprise and charity do a better job at taking care of the homeless/poor. Government by its very nature is monopolistic both in what it does and what it causes. It has a monopoly on law creation and a monopoly on the initiation of the use of force

    69. Re:So the correct action is... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      That means... wide-open parks that cannot be reasonably policed.

      There's a dude storing up horn in case it ever becomes legal to sell it from Rhinos he 'ranches' himself as is. He manages to keep them protected; remember that he, at least in his own mind, has a very good incentive to have an effective protection program up, not to mention that since all the Rhinos are missing their horns(on average), they're not as good of a target for poachers.

      I'm not saying that it's as cheap as farming cattle, where raising a steer worth not even $200 is still economical, but when a horn you can harvest something like 10 times over the animal's life is worth $20k, you can go through a lot more effort and still have it be economical. Heck, even if you depress the price to a 'mere' $2k, and raise the price of raising them an OOM over a steer, they're still easily worth it.

      The trick is to make sure people can verify it was responsibly harvested.

      The people buying it, on average, don't care. The trick is to ensure that the government/customs agents can verify it's legally harvested stuff, but once the legal horn harvest herds are big enough, the trickle of illegal horns won't actually be that big of a deal since the price will be so depressed, it won't normally be worth a poacher's effort/risk. What's worth it right now at $200k per horn might not be worth it at $2k.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    70. Re:So the correct action is... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      The horns grow back in 12-18 months. So trying to find and capture and tranq every rhino every 1-2 years isn't going to be viable anyway.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    71. Re:So the correct action is... by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Unless you always wear full body armor, all he needs is a .22 and good aim.

      Sweetie.

    72. Re:So the correct action is... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Carbohydrates messes up your ability to tell when you have had enough to eat.

      FTFY

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    73. Re:So the correct action is... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The city I came from - Stamford Connecticut - bought the land from the resident (Shippan) Indians. The Indians forgot they had sold it and complained, so the settlers bought the land from the Indians again. And again. Net three times the Indians were paid for the land.

      There's been plenty of nastiness on both sides; don't pretend otherwise.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    74. Re:So the correct action is... by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      Since the GP stated "I'd allow the responsible ranching of Rhinos combined with sustainable horn harvest" and you stated "the horns grow back in 18-24 months, so you have to de-horn the animals repeatedly", how does that reduce (legitimate) supply?

      If the poachers are killing de-horned animals out of spite even though they could get valuable horn by coming back in 18-24 months, thus (literally) killing off their own future profits, then they're the kind of people who "just want to watch the world burn" and they should be treated accordingly.

    75. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, perhaps very few people need sound suppressors, and those that do find them trivially easy to construct from such common items as potatoes and oil filters,

    76. Re:So the correct action is... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Wait a minute.

      Viagra makes snake oil come out of your dick??

      Or is that a euphemism for ejaculate?

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    77. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. You really do want to kill people who don't agree with your world view. The first post saying so above, I figured it was hyperbole. But after many repeated messages, I see you really can't stand the fact that people you'll never actually meet don't agree with you.

    78. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be from Houston

    79. Re:So the correct action is... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You fully support _all_ animal abuse legislation? Are you fucking kidding me?

      No more science, no more farming, no more hunting...

      Like anything else there is a lunatic fringe who have gotten hold of enough power in loony areas.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    80. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I was there talking to the actual safari guides. It's what happens. "

      According to a rumor some tourguide heard.

      "They kill the rhino to get the horn in the first place"

      Not if the horn has already been effing removed! At that point they're only killing the rhino out of spite, like you yourself said. Better to leave it alive and hope it has kids. Jebus.

    81. Re:So the correct action is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DO NOT aid endangered species. You will face fines and jail time for that. Let them die instead.

  5. Note to all Ontario citizens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you dig up remains, bury them again, don't tell anyone.

    That's all this idiotic law is going to make people do (unless independently wealthy and like to waste cash).

    1. Re:Note to all Ontario citizens by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      same over here.

      I know a town where they usually do exactly that when they find another roman coin in their garden.

      --
      bickerdyke
  6. property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If the property owner were to find some sort of toxic material on their property, they'd likely be required to clean that up too and foot the bill. I don't see how this long dead body is any different. Shit happens.

    1. Re:property rights and responsiblities by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Real estate, the only field where it's still acceptable to blame the victim. I mean they were asking for it, just look at how they painted that house...

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    2. Re:property rights and responsiblities by JMJimmy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      True, however, one can research the recent history of a property and have an environmental assessment done before purchasing. There's no equivalent for that when it comes to 400 year old unmarked burial sites.

    3. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they might also be able to sue the surveyor that didn't notice the material before they purchased the land; or the seller who didn't mention it despite knowing it was there.

      What this will actually do is stop people reporting finds, and whilst this is a 400 year old burial, next time it will be a murder victim under a patio.

      Although admittedly that wouldn't require the archaeological survey in reality, homeowners aren't going to risk it.

    4. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Aaden42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I see one pretty significant difference that underscores the abuse of government power supposedly in the name of the Public Good.

      Toxic waste on land is inherently dangerous to all in the area. It leaches into surrounding water, etc., people get sick. As a property owner, your in-action in not cleaning it up has a high likelihood of causing harm to others. It's reasonable that the government would use its power to force the owner to clean it up.

      History and artifacts are nice, but if they're destroyed, nobody is poisoned or gets cancer. If The People believe that preserving them and learning about the past is an important goal, The People should pay for it, not drop the entire cost on the hapless sot who bought the property where someone happened to have dropped dead a long time ago.

      In the former case, the Public Good is protected. A dangerous situation which can harm others who have no control over the problem (IE I can't go on your land to clean up your mess) is rectified. In the latter case, individual property rights are trampled with at best weak justification. It seems unlikely that this find will unearth great and valuable truths about the indigenous population. If the owners wish to allow an archeologist to examine the dig at his own (or perhaps a university's) expense, that's very nice of them. They shouldn't be required to do so, and it's completely unreasonable to expect them to pay for it.

      In their place, I'd be calling a lawyer to see whether the potential fines from an "accident" destroying the entire find exceed the potential cost of hiring someone to dig it up. Then I'd proceed in the most fiscally responsible manner.

    5. Re:property rights and responsiblities by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yup. File a lawsuit. That's the answer for everything today. How DARE that surveyor not notice that something was buried on the property 400 years ago? The sad fact is that people like you think of solutions like that, and would have no trouble whatsoever in finding a sleazbag lawyer willing to take the case (for a percentage).

    6. Re:property rights and responsiblities by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      So the solution is to charge the homeowner 5000$ on the basis that HE is responsible for something that was buried on the property 400 years ago?

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    7. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      A lawsuit like that won't go anywhere. Laws and court decisions can be fucked up at times, but even that's not going to go anywhere. That's what's called a "baseless lawsuit"; it'll be thrown out of court immediately.

      It's just like everyone else here is saying: anyone else who finds a skeleton on their property is just going to rebury it and shut up, so they don't have to pay these fees. If the government really thinks it's important that skeletons be properly dealt with (whether they're 400 years old or just 4), the government needs to foot the bill for dealing with them, instead of making the property owners liable for the costs for something they could not reasonably have known about before purchasing the property.

    8. Re:property rights and responsiblities by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Blame the victim?
      They own the body/toxic waste right?

      Sounds like their problem. That is what you get when you own property. You own both the good and the bad. Don't like it? Rent.

    9. Re:property rights and responsiblities by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It is his property. It's certainly more his responsibility than some guy who spent a few hours surveying the property once upon a time. If the land owner found treasure buried in the back yard would he share it with the surveyor?

    10. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Typical+Slashdotter · · Score: 1

      Well, for the truly unexpected, there is always insurance. Oh wait, it's only $5,000 so it's not worth the bother? Tough shit, sometimes home ownership has unexpected costs.

    11. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

      Yup. File a lawsuit. That's the answer for everything today. How DARE that surveyor not notice that something was buried on the property 400 years ago? The sad fact is that people like you think of solutions like that, and would have no trouble whatsoever in finding a sleazbag lawyer willing to take the case (for a percentage).

      Lawsuits exist for when there is a legitimate dispute between two people or organizations, because it's better than "finders, keepers." Here, a surveyor's is probably going to win any lawsuit unless he really should have known that something was buried there 400 years ago, like there was a giant "X" marking the spot with a headstone on it.

      The only real problem is when the transaction costs of the lawsuit are too high for it to be worth defending. That's a price we pay for having a system better than "finders, keepers." And it is somewhat mitigated by insurance.

    12. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the government's property first.

    13. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unless the government put it there, the owner has more responsibility for what is on his land, know or unknown, than the government does.

    14. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      One thing that everyone here who is making some variant of this argument is conveniently forgetting is the opposite end of what can happen. What if instead of bones his shovel had turned up gold lumps? Would the public get a cut if it was standing by with a check because of what might turn up? Is this the one man version of "socialize the cost, privatize the profit"?

      --
      Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
    15. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they actually owned the good and the bad, they'd be allowed to destroy it. Do you honestly think these homeowners will be allowed to keep the remains and charge admission to a little museum? They don't own jack.

    16. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In their place, I'd be calling a lawyer to see whether the potential fines from an "accident" destroying the entire find exceed the potential cost of hiring someone to dig it up. Then I'd proceed in the most fiscally responsible manner.

      Human remains should be treated with more respect than "accidentally" destroying them.

    17. Re:property rights and responsiblities by cusco · · Score: 2

      So if the homeowner finds a chest of pirate gold on the property, or a suitcase of $100 bills was hidden under the floorboards, then it belongs to the government? After all, it was "something they could not reasonably have known about before purchasing the property." How about if oil is discovered in the area? Is it the government's because they didn't know it was there when they bought the property? Or is it only COSTS that belongs to taxpayers, never BENEFITS?

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    18. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      False equivalence. There's no reason the homeowner needs to hire an archaeologist and pay all these costs for excavation, except that the government requires this for some odd reason. The homeowner should have the right to simply bury the body, or even sell the bones if they want to; they don't because that's illegal, which is a government incursion into private property rights. That's OK actually, since some rights do need to be curtailed for "the greater good", however, if you're going to infringe on someone's rights, you need to pay for the costs associated. That means if you think it's so important that Native American bones be properly excavated and interred, for cultural reasons or whatever, you (the government) need to pay the cost of that, not mandate that homeowners do this at their own expense.

      Finding oil or $100 bills on the land has nothing at all to do with this; there's no valid reason for the government to interfere in private property rights in these cases (except to regulate how the oil is pumped, to avoid environmental damage).

    19. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      The difference is that if you find bones you are required to have them dug up and investigated and then turn them over to the public, whereas if you find gold you can dig it up if you want to (you probably do) and then it's yours to do with as you please, but if you really want to you can just throw it away or rebury it or anything you like.

      If property owners were not under any obligation to do anything one way or another with the bones, but the state (or other parties like private universities etc) were standing around with an offer to investigate and buy any such artifacts discovered, then that would encourage preservation of the artifacts and not infringe any property rights. This would be the analog of the finding-gold case.

      An obligation to allow the state of dig the bones up and take them away (at their own expense, not yours) is perhaps a small violation of property rights, but not all that bad: it's basically a claim that the state already owns any such artifacts, and an obligation to step aside and let them take their property if you come across it. That would be an acceptable solution: if you find bones, you have to let the state investigate and dig them up, but you don't have to do it yourself.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    20. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (1) Yes, it's quite possible that the state (not quite the public, but in theory a relative) claims the minerals found on people's property, and, by dint of having more guns, gets to walk in and take them;

      (2) However, the only reason why there is any cost at all is because the state is forcing people to spend money because of this find. It is not something that is expensive of itself, and by rights the finders should have the choice to rebury it, auction it, or, heck, grind its bones to make their bread.

      In itself, an old skeleton is not a hazard and a liability to people - it is the threat of harm from the state that is the hazard. And, as so many others have observed, the incentive for future finders is to make sure there's no excuse to take their money.

    21. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its obviously unfair that the landowner has to pay for archeologists fees, but its equally unfair when an invaded land has its culture eradicated by the new owners.

      Who do I complain to?

    22. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? They're a matrix of calcium and assorted other minerals left behind after the protein and fats rot around them.

    23. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty sure the First Nations people buried there thought it was THEIR property.

      He's just an illegal immigrant.

    24. Re:property rights and responsiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't oil just really really old skeletons in liquid form? According to this law it should go to the government, and land owner should pay for pumping it up.

  7. first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    first!!

  8. Had they discovered oil on the property... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    the government would have seized it for pennies on the dollar under "Eminent Domain" or some equivalent bullshit law (which they do have in Canada as well). From the government's view point it's always "heads I win, tails you lose" type of deal.

    1. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by LVSlushdat · · Score: 0

      From the government's view point it's always "heads I win, tails you lose" type of deal.

      You got that a bit wrong..Its "heads I win, tails I win.."

      --
      THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
    2. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Do you hear that wooshing sound?

    3. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by esorf · · Score: 2

      Canada is not privatizing all natural resources. Or if they are, they're doing a poor job of it.

      However, despite the paranoia of the parent comment, through taxation the government of Canada *would* enjoy some of the upside of the owner discovering oil on his land. It is only fair and reasonable that the government should also share in the downside (cost of surprise archeological survey) associated with land ownership. And apparently from another comment, there is recourse to apply to the ministry for just such compensation.

    4. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      derp.

    5. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh

    6. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by richy+freeway · · Score: 1

      The saying is "Heads I win, tails you lose." It's meant to sound mildly confusing.

    7. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wooooooooooosh.....

    8. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by afidel · · Score: 2

      Huh? Canada is like the US in that you can own both the surface rights and the mineral rights to your property, if you own the bundled rights and oil is found nobody seizes your land, you get to negotiate a lucrative rights lease to somebody who will exploit the resources (or not, but if you don't it's likely they'll put a well on your neighbors property and exploit it without compensating you so you might as well lease the rights). I know quite a few folks here in Ohio that have hunting tracts down in SE Ohio that have received checks for several times the original cost of the land for oil and gas leases.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    9. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 2

      It's meant to sound mildly confusing.

      Looks like it fulfilled its goal...

    10. Re: Had they discovered oil on the property... by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 1

      They mean two subtly different things. The first is "Either I win or nobody wins", the second is I always win".

      When dealing with the gov't in situations like these, gov't always wins.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    11. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Well that would require Canadians to have the right to own property. We don't, nor is it enshrined in the charter up here. So, enjoy that sobering thought.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    12. Re:Had they discovered oil on the property... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It all belongs to the Crown.

  9. Let them be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So if you find bones on your properly, just ignore them and keep putting up the fence.

    Oh and Canada sucks, take it from a Cdn...

  10. finders keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it was in their back yard, why not make some profit?

  11. TFA says that they can apply for relief by Jabrwock · · Score: 5, Informative
    The Act allows for them to apply to the minister for an exemption, upon granting the state will pay the cost.

    The law as written was meant to ensure companies are responsible for the archaeological costs incurred from digging up their land instead of saddling the taxpayer.

    The Star is just ginning this up as their usual "GOVERNMENT BAD" drivel.

    --
    Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
    1. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Star is just ginning this up as their usual "GOVERNMENT BAD" drivel.

      And Slashdot's happy to repeat it.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    2. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The law as written was meant to ensure companies are responsible for the archaeological costs incurred from digging up their land instead of saddling the taxpayer.

      I don't see why companies should be saddled with this cost either, unless perhaps they purchased a piece of land knowing ahead-of-time that it was likely to contain archaeological artifacts. In many cases the law already requires the owner to "stand aside" while someone digs up archeological finds. In Rome that happens in about every other construction project. That's enough of a burden. I'm all for archaeology and historical preservation, but it's absurd to stick the land owner with the cost.

      OTOH I doubt one would have to pay an archaeologist (can you find them on Craig's List?). A call to your local university history or archaeology department would probably get it done for free.

    3. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by StormyWeather · · Score: 1

      As someone who just got an IRS letter saying they owe 4500 dollars that they don't owe I don't really give a shit how I can fight to not pay it, it's something I shouldn't have to fucking fight!

    4. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm all for archaeology and historical preservation, but it's absurd to stick the land owner with the cost.

      It could be handled that way, but with responsibility comes authority in a sane property rights regime. That is, the owners should be able to sell the archaeological finds to the highest bidder to recoup the dig costs or dispose of them if the costs cannot be recouped (that is, nobody finds the dig to be of value).

      That would be the way to maximize the recovery of artifacts and have them make their way to museums. Sure, in the short term private collectors might have them, but that's not a lasting problem, especially compared to the age of most interesting artifacts.

      It sounds like in Canada the owners have the responsibility but not the authority. That's just a way to socialize costs in an acute fashion and to reinforce the idea of weak property rights.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    5. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's the European approach, which makes much more sense to me.

      The North American approach, I guess in an attempt to avoid spending taxpayer money on things, instead requires landowners to pay for miscellaneous things that the state really ought to take care of. As one example, in many N.A. jurisdictions the property owner is responsible for maintaining a sidewalk in front of their house up to certain standards. Whereas in most of Europe, sidewalk maintenance is considered the state's responsibility.

    6. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by tippe · · Score: 2

      Hopefully they got title insurance when they bought the house, which in Ontario covers this type of thing (it covers things like errors in surveys or public records, amongst other things that would affect the ability to sell or finance the property). If they didn't: sucks to be them, but I have no pity. It only costs a few hundred dollars to get title insurance when you buy a house, which you can just lump in with your mortgage if you don't want to pay outright. If they don't get an exemption for the 5k, or if it turns out that they are living on some ancient Indian burial ground, then their stinginess when buying the house is probably going to cost them a lot more than the title insurance would have...

    7. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 2

      Yes, that's the European approach, which makes much more sense to me.

      The North American approach, I guess in an attempt to avoid spending taxpayer money on things, instead requires landowners to pay for miscellaneous things that the state really ought to take care of. As one example, in many N.A. jurisdictions the property owner is responsible for maintaining a sidewalk in front of their house up to certain standards. Whereas in most of Europe, sidewalk maintenance is considered the state's responsibility.

      Nowhere in the USA that I've lived ever made the homeowner do anything with the sidewalk in front of their house. The city always paid for it. I have lived in DC, MD, VA, and CA.

    8. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cause - Effect

      If a POOR (IE not a millionaire) person finds, a body, historic artifacts, anything other than rocks on their property. THEY HAVE TO PAY TO HAVE THE ENTIRE PROPERTY SCANNED FOR MORE. The effect is a trend to AVOID THE COST.

      Result is a lose to society in general. Either a murder never solved or prosecuted or treasures from hundreds of years ago end up in a basement.

      It's not GOVERNMENT BAD, IT IS LAZY LEGISLATION! Whoever wrote the bill did a half ass job!

    9. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nowhere in the USA that I've lived ever made the homeowner do anything with the sidewalk in front of their house.

      In my state, it's the homeowner's responsibility to maintain the sidewalk.

    10. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      the owners should be able to sell the archaeological finds to the highest bidder to recoup the dig costs

      Are you sure that they can't? IIRC that's become an issue because dinosaur skeletons for example can be very valuable. A dino skeleton on your property can be found gold, but it makes it horrible expensive for museums and the like to purchase them. Part of me thinks "your land, your dino", just as a mineral find on your property can be literally a gold mine (assuming you have the mineral rights too). OTOH a market approach to dinos doesn't make much sense because they ain't making any more of them.

      Either way the policy should be consistent. I suspect that for a minor find like this, rights to sell wouldn't outweigh dig costs (assuming you can't get your local university to do it for free). Also, there are laws regarding proper respect given to human remains. Sometimes that gets taken to ridiculous extremes, like an Indian tribe claiming rights to a 10,000 year old skeleton, but 400 years is another story. Are people permitted to purchase pre-colonial cemeteries and sell the human remains? Of course not.

    11. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Jabrwock · · Score: 1
      In some jurisdictions in Canada, the state will do some things to maintain the sidewalk/edges of your property (pay for repairs to concrete, maintain trees, etc) but you are still responsible for others (shovelling sidewalk, mowing grass, etc).

      It depends on the local bylaws.

      --
      Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
    12. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Towns in South Dakota make you pay to put it in and keep it cleared of snow. Very far from "do anything" and more like "do everything". I am reasonably certain you pay to replace and fix it but I am not quite as certain.

    13. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Jabrwock · · Score: 1

      It's not GOVERNMENT BAD, IT IS LAZY LEGISLATION! Whoever wrote the bill did a half ass job!

      You must pay. Unless you can demonstrate it's a financial burden. These clauses are within a few lines of each other in the legislation. How is that lazy?

      --
      Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
    14. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by afidel · · Score: 1

      You're required in many areas of Ohio to maintain the sidewalk in front of your property, if you fail to do so the city will do it for you and asses your property with a lien.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    15. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Nite_Hawk · · Score: 2

      I live in Minneapolis. About 3-4 years ago we were told the city would be coming through assessing our sidewalk squares for cracks, shifting, etc. After the assessment, we were told that they would be replacing a number of the squares. We could pay the city $800 upfront or pay them over the next 5 years with our taxes (also incurring some additional interest overhead). Alternatively we could hire a licensed contractor from a list provided by the city at our own expense. Later on when they came through to pour the new sidewalks, I noticed at my neighbor's house that they didn't properly level the ground (or lay down a base). The concrete was only two inches deep in places and poured directly on the dirt. I suspect they didn't use rebar or any kind of structural support either. It's almost certain to crack again in the not-to-distant future.

      I'm about as liberal as they come, but in this case it's pretty easy to see why people become disillusioned with government spending.

    16. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The homeowner is responsible for maintaining the sidewalks here in Pasadena,Ca. The previous owner of my house had to pay $x00 to the city to have a small mis-match in sidewalk level repaired before an occupancy permit would be issued.

    17. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Nowhere in the USA that I've lived ever made the homeowner do anything with the sidewalk in front of their house.

      In my state, it's the homeowner's responsibility to maintain the sidewalk.

      What state is that?

    18. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by dywolf · · Score: 1

      if its valuable and likely to make money, you (or the property owner) wont be allowed to profit from it. instead it will be siezed or claimed under another law.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    19. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Tom · · Score: 1

      Well, that is democracy for it.

      Here's the longhand explanation: The voters have decided that they want to do it this way. If you don't see it that way, then you're in the minority. Tough luck.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    20. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      Whereas in most of Europe, sidewalk maintenance is considered the state's responsibility.

      Construction maybe, but maintenance, certainly not. Case in point: In Luxembourg, residents are responsible for keeping "their" sidewalk snow and ice-free in the winter.

    21. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      that's the European approach ... The North American approach

      There are 50 countries in Europe, some of them divided into states or provinces with a certain degree of autonomy. Do they all follow the same practice?

      There are 23 countries in North America, including Canada divided into 10 provinces, the US into 50 states, and Mexico divided into 31 states. Do they all follow the same practice?

    22. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by adolf · · Score: 2

      Nowhere in the USA that I've lived ever made the homeowner do anything with the sidewalk in front of their house. The city always paid for it. I have lived in DC, MD, VA, and CA.

      Good for your anecdote!

      In Findlay, Ohio, the landowner is responsible for the sidewalk.

      If the landowner does not maintain the sidewalk properly, the City will take it upon themselves to fix it, and then bill the homeowner accordingly.

    23. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      It is the same in many places in europe too, but it is not necessarily a law as such, it is just that if anyone gets hurt on YOUR badly maintained sidewalk, you are the one the victim is going to sue. Similarly if you own a public accesible road it is your duty to maintain it as well, though in practice most roads have been bought by the munincipalities the last 100 years, but historically most roads were privately owned, now it is just the sidewalk.

    24. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Tom · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm about as liberal as they come, but in this case it's pretty easy to see why people become disillusioned with government spending.

      Have you ever thought about the other explanation: They they do it cheaply and badly because everyone tries to save a few pennies on this job? I'm pretty sure had you hired a contractor, it would've been more than $800, but it would've been done properly.

      Everyone always expects the government to work great, but with an absolute minimum of budget. Well, newsflash, private corporations don't manage to do that, either. Many of them just have the advantage of getting infrastructure, etc. for free from the government.

      Example: The rail company in Germany was made a private company about 10 years ago. The first few years, everything looks great, just like the consultants had promised. Then things started to go downhill, and still do. Because the first thing they started to save money on was such irritable costs as maintainance. With minimal maintainance, the tracks and stations work just fine... for a few years...

      Government is sometimes wasteful, but often they are just more expensive because they don't cut corners as much as private companies do and because they take risks and explore frontiers that corporations rather not.
      NASA is crazy expensive, but they got a man to the moon in 8 years. And even with all the groundwork long done, private companies are still working out the details of reaching earth orbit after 11 years.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    25. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by h4rr4r · · Score: 0

      No, it would simply lead to maximizing disposal.

      Much better would be to have the government come get it if it wants it so bad. You fill out a form and wait X time. If they never respond you can do as you like.

    26. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Can you cite some pertinent examples?

    27. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Tom · · Score: 1

      OTOH a market approach to dinos doesn't make much sense because they ain't making any more of them.

      *grin* that was a really good one.

      But, of course, I'm quite sure that you can get authentic dino skeletons from China in whatever type and quantity you desire...

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    28. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by dywolf · · Score: 1

      everywhere i've lived its been the homeowners responsibilty. now, the city may do it initially, and may repair it as needed...but the law on the books says its you, and if you look, i bet your taxes are paying for it.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    29. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      I'm not the person you're replying to, but that's the case in most of Texas. Here are three random cities: Bryan, TX, Richardson, TX, and Dallas, TX.

      Example, From Dallas,

      Street and Alley Repair

      Street and alley repair is the responsibility of the Department of Street Services.

      [...]

      Sidewalk or Drive Approach Repairs / Replacements

      The adjacent property owner is responsible for all repairs or replacement of sidewalks and drive approaches.

    30. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      The GP wasn't clear what he meant by maintenance. Around here (Long Island, NY) you're also responsible for keeping the sidewalk clear of ice and snow and even for mowing the grass on the strip between the sidewalk and the street. That's reasonable, especially if they don't go totally nuts in enforcing it. Having to pour new concrete for a broken sidewalk is a whole different story.

    31. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      In some countries a gov't agency can sue a newspaper for slander. In this case, if The Star could have reasonably known about and mentioned the exemption possibility but failed to, one could have a good case against them in such countries.

      However, certain news sources I've seen (that rhyme with "box") will include the obvious or easy-to-find counter arguments, but near the bottom in convoluted or sloppy language. Such a court case would then be over wording and placement, which would fill the courts with squabbling over gray areas.

    32. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      I don't think that's a liberal vs. conservative issue. Liberals would say it's a government responsibility to maintain infrastructure, and conservatives would say the government shouldn't unreasonably burden property owners. In this case they both amount to the same thing.

      That cute "contractor from a list provided by the city" sounds more like plain old-fashioned corruption rather than an ideological difference, especially with those contractors doing a lousy job. Why, for example, couldn't you do your own work if you wanted?

    33. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The law as written was meant to ensure companies are responsible for the archaeological costs incurred from digging up their land instead of saddling the taxpayer.

      If the tax payer is interested in archaeology, they should be willing to pay for it.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    34. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      I think the general theory is that the government should be cheaper than the private sector since they don't have a profit motive, all else being equal.

    35. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by RedShoeRider · · Score: 2

      Come to New Jersey.

      It's dependent on the municipality as to what you have to do with the sidewalk. In most towns, you're responsibale for keeping it clear (shovel the snow in the winter, cut the grass in the summer). Some towns, however, make you shoulder the cost of repair/replacing it when it no longer meets the town standards.

      --

      Chris Knight is my hero.

    36. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      As someone who just got an IRS letter saying they owe 4500 dollars that they don't owe I don't really give a shit how I can fight to not pay it, it's something I shouldn't have to fucking fight!

      Relax, If you're right about the money, it's probably not gonna take more than a couple letters back and forth to solve. I've gotten these every so often, and usually a single clarification solves the whole thing. A couple of those it was my error. In one case I owed them money. In one case, I'd paid too much and they sent it back. It's almost certainly not going to be anywhere near the hassle you might anticipate.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    37. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose you're also okay with people stealing cars as well, so long as the owner doesn't have theft insurance.

    38. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Can you cite some pertinent examples?

      Sue the T-Rex

    39. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by jandrese · · Score: 1

      It depends what you mean by "take care of it". In my city, I'm responsible for shoveling snow off of the sidewalk and for mowing the strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street, but I am not responsible for filling cracks or anything like that, the city takes care of that. It seems like a pretty reasonable compromise and probably better than the city running tiny snowplows up and down the sidewalks in the winter or something.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    40. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by argStyopa · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because it's TRUE.

      Yes, they can apply for an exemption.
      Yes they will PROBABLY get it....but not certainly.

      The fact is, if a person/corporation/dog digs up something on their property that someone else thinks is important, why should that property owner pay for it EVER unless they can expect reasonable compensation to at least offset those costs?

      Seriously?

      The law as written is stupid. If I dig up inuit bones, it's meaningless to me. If the inuit (or more realistically, some caucasian anthropologists, right?) feel what I find is valuable, THEY can flippin' pay for it. If it's not worth them sinking $5000 into the 'site evaluation' plus whatever I want to charge for the inconvenience of delaying my project, then screw them and grind it to dust.

      --
      -Styopa
    41. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      everywhere i've lived its been the homeowners responsibilty. now, the city may do it initially, and may repair it as needed...but the law on the books says its you, and if you look, i bet your taxes are paying for it.

      Of course your taxes are paying for it. It's not being done with pixie dust.

    42. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      It depends what you mean by "take care of it". In my city, I'm responsible for shoveling snow off of the sidewalk and for mowing the strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street, but I am not responsible for filling cracks or anything like that, the city takes care of that. It seems like a pretty reasonable compromise and probably better than the city running tiny snowplows up and down the sidewalks in the winter or something.

      Yes, I meant repairs, only. I can't imagine any municipality plowing the sidewalks for everyone.

    43. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      Nowhere in the USA that I've lived ever made the homeowner do anything with the sidewalk in front of their house. The city always paid for it. I have lived in DC, MD, VA, and CA.

      Good for your anecdote!

      In Findlay, Ohio, the landowner is responsible for the sidewalk.

      If the landowner does not maintain the sidewalk properly, the City will take it upon themselves to fix it, and then bill the homeowner accordingly.

      Good for your anecdote, too.

    44. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Depending on how many squares where being replaced for the $800 it was almost certainly more then a fair share of what contractor would have charged the block (you've got to do apples to apples comparisons).

      The government version cost extra because it was being run by the mayor's nephew and staffed by union thugs.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    45. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having to apply for an exemption is still a cost if you assume the homeowner's time has value. It should be the other way around, with a government official assessing the applicability of reimbursement when they receive a report.

      Who incurs these archaeological costs? If it's our history, our bones, then the government should be the ones paying for everything.

    46. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      No, it would simply lead to maximizing disposal.

      That's silly, nobody throws away things that have value. If they found a gold nugget instead of an artifact, would they throw it away or sell it?

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    47. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      I'm also in Ohio. My city targets a neighborhood and inspects all the sidewalks. Any that are crumbled or terribly affected by tree roots are market for replacement. The homeowner can either use the company suggested by the city to fix it at a previously agreed upon rate or make their own arrangements. Anything not done by a certain time is completed by the city at the homeowner's expense. The neighborhood my grandma lives in went through this last fall, it makes a huge difference to the asthetics.

      They do something similar with yards. If someone does not mow and a complaint is made, the city will come out and mow it then bill the homeowner.

      It may seem like the city is overstepping its bounds but they are trying to protect the value of the city.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    48. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      OTOH a market approach to dinos doesn't make much sense because they ain't making any more of them.

      They ain't making any more gold either, at least not in these parts for another seven billion years.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    49. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes...4 towns in 4 states == all of the USA...

    50. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Nite_Hawk · · Score: 1

      I'm about as liberal as they come, but in this case it's pretty easy to see why people become disillusioned with government spending.

      Have you ever thought about the other explanation: They they do it cheaply and badly because everyone tries to save a few pennies on this job? I'm pretty sure had you hired a contractor, it would've been more than $800, but it would've been done properly.

      That's not the other explanation, it's more or less what I'm complaining about. The city should be in the business of finding the best value, not the dirt cheapest solution. *Anyone* can do that. I naively assumed that the default option of letting the city handle it would be optimal. I mean, is it really that unreasonable to expect that the city should know how to find someone to install proper sidewalks at a reasonable price better than I do?

      Everyone always expects the government to work great, but with an absolute minimum of budget. Well, newsflash, private corporations don't manage to do that, either. Many of them just have the advantage of getting infrastructure, etc. for free from the government.

      Who's everyone? We are talking about city sidewalks...

      Example: The rail company in Germany was made a private company about 10 years ago. The first few years, everything looks great, just like the consultants had promised. Then things started to go downhill, and still do. Because the first thing they started to save money on was such irritable costs as maintainance. With minimal maintainance, the tracks and stations work just fine... for a few years...

      Government is sometimes wasteful, but often they are just more expensive because they don't cut corners as much as private companies do and because they take risks and explore frontiers that corporations rather not.

      I'm not sure what any of this really has to do with shoddy sidewalks installed by the city... Anyway, had the city done a better job (even with a bit of extra work to make sure things were done right) I would have been grudgingly happy (despite wondering why my tax dollars are going toward building new sports stadiums when the old ones are fine instead of replacing our crumbling infrastructure). The problem here is that the government provided options was as, if not more, shoddy than private solutions.

      NASA is crazy expensive, but they got a man to the moon in 8 years. And even with all the groundwork long done, private companies are still working out the details of reaching earth orbit after 11 years.

      Sidewalks! It's literally not rocket science. I'm not talking about putting down advanced concrete formulations, subsurface heating, or crazy glow in the dark walking stripes. I just want them to level the dirt, throw down some aggregate, and use rebar so I'm not being forced to pay for this again in 10 years.

    51. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by adolf · · Score: 1

      That wasn't an anecdote. It was a specific example.

    52. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      The voters have decided that they want to do it this way.

      No, unless there was a referendum, the people who are supposed to represent the voters have decided that they want to do it this way. Hint: representative government, while generally the least worst alternative, is not perfect, and the people's representatives are not always above corruption.

      If you don't see it that way, then you're in the minority. Tough luck.

      So even if it were decided by the voters, people aren't allowed to complain about it?

    53. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by kimvette · · Score: 1

      In practice it's many times the cost of private enterprise, due to administrative overhead here in Massachusetts.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    54. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Lots of things have value that get tossed out all the time.

      Go look around when your town does garbage collection.

    55. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ebno-10db · · Score: 2
      From your link:

      Williams [the property owner] then decided to sell the remains, and contracted with Sotheby's to auction the property. ... On October 4, 1997, the auction began at $500,000; less than ten minutes later, The Field Museum had purchased the remains with the highest bid of $8,362,500.

      Doesn't sound like the property owner did too badly.

    56. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That would be the way to maximize the recovery of artifacts and have them make their way to museums. Sure, in the short term private collectors might have them, but that's not a lasting problem, especially compared to the age of most interesting artifacts.

      This is about the worst case for actual archaeological research. What collectors want --- a pretty looking specimen to display on the shelf --- is often the least interesting/important part for researchers. Most of the useful information from archeological digs comes from meticulous recording and analysis of all the "rubbish" at the dig site --- all the stuff that looters tear through and discard to find the shiny baubles. Little fragments of rotted wood can be just as important (or more so) than the occasional solid gold jewelery for learning about history. By the time an artifact has passed through private collector's hands, it (and the site from which it was looted) has usually been rendered nearly worthless as an object of academic historical study.

    57. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Informative

      Somebody has to pay for society. I'm not particularly keen on it being the landowner, but if the government pays as a matter of course, the door's wide open for exploitation. A reasonable system (in my opinion) would be to have the government pay for major expenses, and private entities pay for minor things, where the definitions of "major" and "minor" are determined by an appropriately-uninterested third party.

      That sounds pretty similar to what's happening here:

      Bob Bailey, the MPP for the area, saw her story in the local newspaper and his staff did some research into the couple’s predicament. He found out that Sauve can make a request to the Registrar of Cemeteries to determine if paying for the excavation would be considered an “undue financial burden.” The registrar will then either reimburse her or pay the bill directly.

      Bailey said he has spoken to the minister of consumer services (the Funeral, Burial and Cremation Services Act falls under her purview) and her staff, and intends to make sure Sauve won’t have to pay.

      An unexpected $5000 bill to a residential homeowner is pretty likely to be undue, but it's up to the registrar to decide. We could of course wait and see, but since this is Slashdot, we're never going to get the resolution. Even if the registrar pays the whole bill, Slashdot won't report on it. Instead, the next anti-government story that can be spun into a revolutionary frenzy will make the front page.

      If I dig up inuit bones, it's meaningless to me. If the inuit feel what I find is valuable, THEY can flippin' pay for it. If it's not worth them sinking $5000 into the 'site evaluation' plus whatever I want to charge for the inconvenience of delaying my project, then screw them and grind it to dust.

      And this is why we have government in the first place. Society as a whole has determined that the cultural and scientific value of the bones is worth more than any "inconvenience" to you, so society's government has declared it illegal to knowingly (or negligently) "grind it to dust". If you're building a new multi-million-dollar complex, and your preliminary survey encounters some artifacts, the few thousand dollars extra it costs you to comply with the law is an insignificant price. In the colonial cities on the United States' east coast, this is a routine occurrence, and there are grant programs available specifically to pay for such things.

      Even scarier than the unexpected bills to citizens is the opportunity for fraud against the government. If the government's policy is to simply pay all excavation and exploration bills, anybody with a few old bones can drop them on a planned construction site, and have the cost of construction subsidized by the taxpayers. If the government's also required to pay for "inconvenience", the fraud can set whatever price he wants, and effectively hold history for ransom. Through the indirect process of representative government, society has said they'd rather have occasional unexpected bills.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    58. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by dywolf · · Score: 1

      you completely missed the point, even though you just refuted your own point.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    59. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ogrizzo · · Score: 1

      Whereas in most of Europe, sidewalk maintenance is considered the state's responsibility.

      Construction maybe, but maintenance, certainly not. Case in point: In Luxembourg, residents are responsible for keeping "their" sidewalk snow and ice-free in the winter.

      Here in Italy, the construction of a sidewalk in face of a new development is usually paid for (and built by) the developer. Maintenance could be up to the building owner for a number of years (it depends on the deal you stroke with the local municipality on the building permit) but is usually done by the municipality. In theory residents are responsible for keeping their sidewalk snow and ice-free, and where I live you can even get free salt in order to do that. In practice, either someone does it out of fun (as I do), or someone reminds the building manager that it would be him the one charged with criminal negligence in case sh*t happens.

    60. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      That wasn't an anecdote. It was a specific example.

      Oh, so mine is an anecdote, and yours is an example. Got it!

    61. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      you completely missed the point, even though you just refuted your own point.

      I did no such thing. Re-read and comprehend. The sidewalk repair (where I've lived) is not the homeowner's responsibility. The city takes care of it. All city homeowners pay taxes that fund the sidewalk repair. It is not the homeowner's individual responsibility or sole cost.

    62. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by adolf · · Score: 1

      Indeed. These words have different meanings. Perhaps that is why they are spelled, pronounced, and defined differently.

    63. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by lgw · · Score: 1

      Not long term, of course. The best way to reduce costs is to invent new technology that does things cheaper. This can make orders-of-magnitude differences in costs over time. Government has no incentives to reduce costs - rather the opposite: the bigger your budget, the more important you are.

      Or were you talking about government-by-angels instead of government-by-men?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    64. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      The Act allows for them to apply to the minister for an exemption, upon granting the state will pay the cost. The law as written was meant to ensure companies are responsible for the archaeological costs incurred from digging up their land instead of saddling the taxpayer.

      Ahh. So all they really have to do is hire a lawyer to get that paperwork filled out properly and shepherd it through the system, and once that is all complete they will probably have access back to their property?

      To quote that great ancient philosopher Lando Calrissian: This deal's getting worse all the time!

    65. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you'd care to explain why my data is an anecdote, while yours is an example.

    66. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by tompaulco · · Score: 0

      I don't think Title Insurance is any kind of collectible insurance. i think they just charge you a couple of hundred dollars and expect to never hear from you again. At any rate it wouldn't cover something like this. If anything, it would cover if they made some kind of mistake in ownership that lead to you somehow not being the legal owner of the property. And even then, you are probably out of luck because they probably would have closed up shop and opened up under a new name.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    67. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Tom · · Score: 1

      I don't like representative democracy, either. However, the people decided that this is how they want it, so they are also responsible for what happened afterwards. I can't give you a gun and tell you to shoot something, and then complain about the details of where you shot it and how.

      So even if it were decided by the voters, people aren't allowed to complain about it?

      Complain, yes. But there are valid and invalid complaints. You can still dislike it, but you should acknowledge that it is like that for a reason. That you might disagree with, but the majority doesn't.

      Ok, that's a bit beating around the bush. What's getting on my nerves is people complaining about government actions as if the government where an alien parasite that infects the planet and not something that we do to ourselves.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    68. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Tom · · Score: 1

      The city should be in the business of finding the best value, not the dirt cheapest solution.

      What I'm saying is: Maybe they would love to do just that, but everyone complains when they need a bigger budget because they are not going with the dirt cheap solutions anymore.

      I'm not sure what any of this really has to do with shoddy sidewalks installed by the city...

      The big picture is that there is this liberal assumption floating around that anything the government does is bad and expensive, and everyone private enterprise does is cheap and good. And I'm saying that's bullshit.

      Sidewalks! It's literally not rocket science.

      No. But it's still a job that can be done well, or badly.

      I'm just trying to make you think one step further, beyond "the city fucked this up" towards "why did they fuck this up?".

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    69. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Tom · · Score: 1

      The government version cost extra because it was being run by the mayor's nephew and staffed by union thugs.

      And that's a set of baseless assumptions right there.

      I prefer a fact-based approach to bullshit propaganda. So unless you've got any evidence of your claim, I'll call you a liar.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    70. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by adolf · · Score: 1

      Example: A thing characteristic of its kind or illustrating a general rule.

      Anecdote: An account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.

      *shrug*

    71. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Tom · · Score: 1

      The problem is that most corporations don't think long term anymore. To them "long term" means more than one business year.

      New technology is very, very often founded by taxpayers in its initial stages. Then corporations pick it up and make it big and take the credit, but the fact is that they could start with a mature product instead of doing all the basic research themselves.

      There are exceptions, but if you really go through the history of even recent inventions, you will be surprised at how often taxpayer money is involved in the early stages.

      For my country, most of the current telecommunications stuff, TV and radio, a lof of transportation, thousands of small inventions in material sciences and engineering, alternative energy, almost everything in the aerospace industry, the early Internet and an endless list of other things would not have come to pass without the government funding at least parts of the early development, and often considerably more than that.

      Basically, any technology that takes several years to mature and deploy as well as any that requires a considerably deployed base before economy of scale makes it profitable.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    72. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In most of the United States, the sidewalk is on private property with a public easement. Unless specified through local ordinance, the property owner should consider it their responsibility for its upkeep.

      Three examples in California.

      Los Angeles undertakes the burden of sidewalk repair, but is about $2 billion behind on repairs to the 4,000 miles of neglected concrete.

      Long Beach takes responsibility for fixing sidewalks, but only if there is a joint separation that exceeds one half inch, some loose concrete or the creation of a drainage problem.

      San Jose holds property owners liable for maintaining, repairing and replacing sidewalks, curbs and gutters.

    73. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      At my father's old house in California, the area that would normally be a sidewalk between the state road our private driveway was an atrocious no-mans-land of responsibility. CalTrans would not maintain it, and would not let us fix it either. It was their property and they were determined to let it (and the what-should-have-been-a-sidewalk all along that road) deteriorate, and to hell with us if we wanted to fix it up; we could only pave our private driveway up to about a sidewalk's width away from the road, and then had to stop, so to pull off the road into our driveway, we'd always have to drive across a sidewalk's width of effectively unpaved crumbled concrete and asphalt left over from whenever that area was first built up.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    74. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is sidewalk repair my responsibility?

      Seattle Municipal Code, Title 15.72 requires that property owners keep the sidewalk adjacent to their property fit and safe for the purposes of public travel. As such, property owners must repair cracks and other damage to the sidewalk as well as ensure that snow and ice do not pose a hazard to pedestrians. If the sidewalk is determined to be unfit or unsafe, the Municipal Code requires SDOT to direct the abutting property owner to fix their sidewalk. The property owner of record is notified by the district Street Use inspector of the repairs or action needed. If there is an unsafe condition and you need to repair the sidewalk, apply for a Street Use sidewalk repair permit.

      If a property owner installs a new concrete sidewalk, the owner or the contractor must obtain a Street Use Permit to make sure the walkway meets the City's current standards, including wheelchair ramps at street corners and proper drainage of the street area.

    75. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Kaptain+Kruton · · Score: 1

      The Act allows for them to apply to the minister for an exemption, upon granting the state will pay the cost

      Correction: TFA says they can apply for REIMBURSEMENT. I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay $5000 now and then wait several months to get my money back.

      The law as written was meant to ensure companies are responsible for the archaeological costs incurred from digging up their land instead of saddling the taxpayer.

      I don't care what laws are meant to do nearly as much as what they actually do. Isn't that part of the reason why /. loves to bash things such as the Patriot Act and SOPA? Please do not defend laws by saying they are meant to do something good.

    76. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Society as a whole has determined that the cultural and scientific value of the bones is worth more than any "inconvenience" to you, so society's government has declared it illegal to knowingly (or negligently) "grind it to dust".

      No we haven't. Some elected officials may have decided that in their role as representatives of those who value those bones. That doesn't mean EVERYBODY values those bones. It just means a small group made a big enough noise to be heard.

      Your statement is as incorrect as saying that society as a whole has determined that marijuana should be illegal, but in fact that's wrong and many polls show a majority of people favoring its legalization. The will of the people isn't always reflected in our laws. When they are out of whack, people feel morally justified in breaking those laws.

      Based on the responses here, aside from a few stick-in-the-mud types who sound like complete douchebags, I'd guess your average citizen would say "No that's stupid, this couple shouldn't have to pay."

    77. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Jabrwock · · Score: 1

      Correction: TFA says they can apply for REIMBURSEMENT. I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay $5000 now and then wait several months to get my money back.

      As opposed to TFA, the actual law says:

      Where registrar investigates (4) If the registrar is of the opinion that an investigation under subsection (1) would impose an undue financial burden on the land owner, the registrar shall undertake the investigation. 2002, c. 33, s. 96 (4).

      Nowhere in the law does it say they have to apply for reimbursement. They can challenge the order to hire the archaeologist by stating they don't have the funds to hire him.

      --
      Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
    78. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Nite_Hawk · · Score: 1

      The city should be in the business of finding the best value, not the dirt cheapest solution.

      What I'm saying is: Maybe they would love to do just that, but everyone complains when they need a bigger budget because they are not going with the dirt cheap solutions anymore.

      This isn't being paid for out of a budget, it's being paid for directly by the people that own the affected homes. I would have greatly appreciated it if they would have said "you can pay us $800, but you really shouldn't because we are going to hire the cheapest sloppiest contractor we can find". I would have gone and found someone else myself even if it cost a bit more.

      I'm not sure what any of this really has to do with shoddy sidewalks installed by the city...

      The big picture is that there is this liberal assumption floating around that anything the government does is bad and expensive, and everyone private enterprise does is cheap and good. And I'm saying that's bullshit.

      There is a liberal assumption that private enterprise is good and government is bad? That seems to be the opposite of the typical meme I've heard...

      Sidewalks! It's literally not rocket science.

      No. But it's still a job that can be done well, or badly.

      I'm just trying to make you think one step further, beyond "the city fucked this up" towards "why did they fuck this up?".

      Look, I shouldn't have to worry about these things. If it's not the sidewalks, it's the gas lines (3 blocks from my home!):

      http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/203710911.html

      Or how about the bridges collapsing into the river?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge

      I expect better than this from my government. I don't mind paying taxes to make sure infrastructure is maintained, but they are doing a hell of a job convincing me they aren't the right people to be doing it.

    79. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      MD : http://www6.montgomerycountymd.gov/mcgtmpl.asp?url=/content/pio/emergency/Code_Section_49-24A.asp
      "A person is responsible for removing snow and ice on any sidewalk, other walkway, or parking area on or adjacent to property that the person owns, leases, or manages, including any walkway in the public right-of-way, to provide a pathway wide enough for safe pedestrian and wheelchair use. "

      DC: http://web.lexisnexis.com/research/xlink?app=00075&view=full&interface=1&docinfo=off&searchtype=get&search=D.C.+Code+%2525A7+9-601
      "It shall be the duty of every person, partnership, corporation, joint-stock company, or syndicate in charge or control of any building or lot of land within the fire limits of the District of Columbia, fronting or abutting on a paved sidewalk, whether as owner, tenant, occupant, lessee, or otherwise, within the first 8 hours of daylight after the ceasing to fall of any snow or sleet, to remove and clear away, or cause to be removed and cleared away, such snow or sleet from so much of said sidewalk as is in front of or abuts on said building or lot of land."

      VA: http://alexandriava.gov/special/weather/snow/default.aspx?id=40386
      "Snow and ice must be cleared from all paved sidewalks abutting your property within 24-72 hours of the end of the snowfall, depending on the storm response level"

      No idea about CA, and of course city/district level rather than state usually.

    80. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      It just means a small group made a big enough noise to be heard.

      Ah, right... the silent majority opposes all those crazy politicians, but still keep voting 'em right back into office.

      Your statement is as incorrect as saying that society as a whole has determined that marijuana should be illegal

      Why yes, it is, which is to say it's not incorrect at all. Marijuana's criminalization started when it was identified as a "poison" because of its psychoactive properties, so it got lumped in with narcotics. That gave it a mildly bad reputation that continued to decline as propaganda swayed public opinion. By 1937, when it was pretty fully criminalized, the public didn't really oppose it.

      but in fact that's wrong and many polls show a majority of people favoring its legalization.

      Now it is, yes. Slowly, politicians are recognizing that, and will continue to do so. This doesn't mean that representatives are independent of their constituents, but rather it illustrates that there is an obvious delay between a change in public opinion and political action.

      The will of the people isn't always reflected in our laws.

      Nope. Often this is a good thing, because on the whole, people are stupid and short-sighted. When it comes to a personal issue, like "I don't want to pay for an archaeologist", they choose one way. When the issue is phrased differently, like "I want my children to know about the native culture in this area", they choose differently. It's the job of government to figure out what specific policies lead to the greater good. The people, by vote or by petition, simply set that long-term target.

      When they are out of whack, people feel morally justified in breaking those laws.

      People feel morally justified in everything they do, because people are very strongly biased, regardless of laws or any fixed morality.

      Based on the responses here, aside from a few stick-in-the-mud types who sound like complete douchebags, I'd guess your average citizen would say "No that's stupid, this couple shouldn't have to pay."

      Whether the couple should or should not have to pay is not actually the issue at hand, despite the muckrakers' drivel. As far as I can tell, nobody actually involved in the case is saying that the landowners should pay. Rather, the default state for the law is that the landowner gets the bill for legally-mandated work, just like they have to pay for their own smoke detectors, circuit breakers, sanitation, structural repairs, fireman access, et cetera. If the expense is unreasonable in the circumstances (as this appears to be), the government can assist, for the benefit of society, but that decision hasn't been made yet.

      All we have here is a half-baked story about something unusual happening, but not yet concluded. Since it's at a stage where it's easy to get commenters riled up in a nice Two Minutes' Hate against the government, it gets wide media attention.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    81. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Assuming the square of concrete is 3x3 feet, that's 4.5 cubic feet of concrete if it's 6 inches thick. About $50 if you mix your own from bags from a local hardware store.

      You didn't say how many squares, but this sounds like a do-it-yourself project, if you could get away with it.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    82. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      I live in a small rural town, with maybe 500 yards of sidewalk. About half of it is between and near the school, library, and town hall. The town does indeed run a tiny snowplow to clear all the sidewalks - it's a question of safety and efficiency; it would be a bit foolish to insist everyone with a 50 foot frontage keep their own portion clean.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    83. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      It's not GOVERNMENT BAD, IT IS LAZY LEGISLATION!

      And what entity wrote the legislation?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    84. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      My point is that you consider my account to be unreliable and yet your account is illustrating a general rule. You can't even see your own bias.

    85. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      As I have said previously, I was referring to sidewalk repairs, not snow removal.

    86. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      I live in a small rural town, with maybe 500 yards of sidewalk. About half of it is between and near the school, library, and town hall. The town does indeed run a tiny snowplow to clear all the sidewalks - it's a question of safety and efficiency; it would be a bit foolish to insist everyone with a 50 foot frontage keep their own portion clean.

      I'm impressed. Every city I've ever lived in required the homeowners to clear their own walks. I guess in a town of only 500 yards of sidewalk, the town can easily do the job.

    87. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      I guess we use different working definitions for the word "anything".

      But OK, for CA then: http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/sidewalks.aspx

      Assuming the city of Berkeley isn't lying then (it's always suspicious when they don't give the darn reference for to the law in question of course): "State law has long held that property owners are fully responsible for keeping sidewalks in safe condition. However, to ensure that sidewalks provide safe passage for everyone, the City has been performing many needed repairs.".

    88. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      If you look back to the top of the thread (poster: Trepidity), his claim was that the "North American" approach was that "the property owner is responsible for maintaining a sidewalk in front of their house." That was what I was responding to. "Anything" meant "anything in maintaining." And please don't respond and say that shoveling snow is maintaining unless your ego requires you to always be right.

      Perhaps it is state law in CA, but in practice the cities I've lived in there (Anaheim, Santa Ana, Orange) have always done the repair work and have never asked me for compensation (other than the same tax rate all property owners pay). I think the state law is purely for liability purposes when someone trips and falls in front of your house.

    89. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      I consider removing hazards as maintenance. You are allowed not to. That I think that doesn't mean I have an ego that requires me always to be right. Do you have a problem with random people on the internet not agreeing with all your opinions?

      Liability purposed is all there is. What other purpose could there be? "Looking pretty" I guess but it'd be very strange for a state to get involved at that level.

      Anyway I found it:

      "The owners of lots or portions of lots fronting on any portion of a public street or place when that street or place is improved or if and when the area between the property line of the adjacent property and the street line is maintained as a park or parking strip, shall maintain any sidewalk in such condition that the sidewalk will not endanger persons or property and maintain it in a condition which will not interfere with the public convenience in the use of those works or areas save and except as to those conditions created or maintained in, upon, along, or in connection with such sidewalk by any person other than the owner, under and by virtue of any permit or right granted to him by law or by the city authorities in charge thereof, and such persons shall be under a like duty in relation thereto." - http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/SHC/1/d7/3/22/2/s5610 (CAL CODE 5610)

      That some cities have decided to take on the responsibility doesn't change what the state law is. Of course it isn't surprising that CA voters have elected people to city government who have had the city take such responsibilities.

    90. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      No, I don't have a problem with random people on the Internet disagreeing. However, your zealousness does seem to indicate that your ego is well engaged on the topic.

    91. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Really? You can detect zealousness and ego in my opinion that hazard removal is a type of maintenance?

      Your abilities are truly astounding.

      Or was is the minute I spent googling for "MD snow shovel owner", "DC snow shovel owner", "VA snow shovel owner", and "CA snow shovel owner" and clicking through one of the top matches for something that looked like what I expected due to it being the law in my own state. Well except for CA - that gave matches for Canada instead of California and I couldn't be bothered special casing a search. If so was it the minute of time I spent that shows too much "zealous ego engagement" for you? Or was it that I gave up on California at the first obstacle?

      I hope it wasn't the minute I spent, since if so I just spent another minute typing this proving your point again I guess. Then again if so, why do you want rapid non-thinking conversations rather than me spending a tiny bit of time checking my facts before spouting them?

    92. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      No, it's how far you're going to disprove my point. My point was always about SIDEWALK REPAIR as practically enforced in the USA in my experience (as said multiple times above). And yet you try to "dispute" my point by changing what I'm saying. Just keep right on justifying yourself, because someone with your outsized ego must surely realize that an outsized ego is a negative quality and must therefore argue that they don't have one. Have a nice day.

    93. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      I'm not going far to disprove your point. I've accepted that you used "anything" with a qualifier that I didn't see (since I jumped in in the middle of the thread). so there's no point to disprove in the first place. I've agreed that non-snow removal type maintenance has probably been the responsibility of the city in the places you've lived (I've lived in apartments in some places and so wouldn't know for them). I haven't changed what you've said at all that I can tell.

      I'm currently just amazed that you seem to consider someone having a different opinion than you and/or that they do trivial fact checking before making a claim so be a sign of zealousness and ego (whatever those actually are). I'll try and remember to just make stuff up whenever replying to you rather than checking if my recollections are valid - though I don't actually look at the names on the comments so it won't matter anyway since I won't notice it's you, sorry.

      I can honestly say that there's no ego involved. I truly don't care if I'm right or wrong on this (there doesn't seem to be a dispute to be wrong or right for that matter). I agree in fact that in most of the places I've lived sidewalk repair has been paid for by the city. I'm only still engaged in the hope that I'll get insight into why you felt the need to explicitly tell me not to bother saying "sorry, I considered snow removal a form of maintenance" and that the only reason I could possibly have for wanting to clear up a difference in definitions was a need to be right rather than say trying to end on agreement.

      I must admit you did bait me into looking up CA rules (since I vaguely remembered a news story long ago about Los Angeles getting sued for crappy sidewalks and trying to stick it back on the property owners but the city had some old regulation in which they took responsibility and good luck getting the people to let them go back on that deficit and hence had something to check), congratulations on that one :)

    94. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      I never had any intention of baiting anyone into looking up the rules in the places I've lived. I was just stating what the rules (as they were applied) were in the places I've lived as a counterpoint to a claim that the "North American way" was to make the homeowner pay for sidewalk repairs. I understand skepticism when reading claims on the interwebs, but really why would someone lie about such a trivial observation in a small sample of places? It seemed awfully unusual to me for such a minor point to argued so heavily.

    95. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      I didn't think you were lying. I figured you just forgot about snow shoveling since it's such just the done thing anyway. I was surprised myself when it turns out that CA expects owners to repair the sidewalk (I expected my recollections of a news article would be wrong since it's such a dumb idea) - though if CA does I'm sure a bunch of other places do too (CA isn't exactly famous for small government after all).

      I was wrong, obviously. You didn't forget about snow shoveling you just didn't consider it part of maintenance. Which is fine, just strange that me possibly wanting to say that yes I do think it is part of maintenance could only be a crippling desire to always be right on my part.

    96. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by adolf · · Score: 1

      The two accounts are different.

      You mentioned a bunch of generalized places where you say you've lived, and stated that the sidewalks were paid for by the government in those places.

      I mentioned a specific instance of a thing characteristic of its kind (not a general rule as you seem to think).

      One of these claims can be independently verified. The other cannot be.

      Guess which one is more reliable?

      It's not a question of bias. It is an example (there's that word again) of the notion that not all statements are created equally.

    97. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      The two accounts are different.

      You mentioned a bunch of generalized places where you say you've lived, and stated that the sidewalks were paid for by the government in those places.

      I mentioned a specific instance of a thing characteristic of its kind (not a general rule as you seem to think).

      One of these claims can be independently verified. The other cannot be.

      Guess which one is more reliable?

      It's not a question of bias. It is an example (there's that word again) of the notion that not all statements are created equally.

      I did not mention "generalized places" I've lived. Washington, DC is specific as it gets. Okay, the states were large, so here's the cities: Santa Ana, CA; Orange, CA; Leesburg, VA. You clearly used the word anecdote to bias your data above mine.

    98. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Ah, right... the silent majority opposes all those crazy politicians, but still keep voting 'em right back into office.

      Yes, people will oppose many issues if they are explicitly brought to the people's attention that they would otherwise ignore and have no motivation to seek out and discover.

      Now it is, yes. Slowly, politicians are recognizing that, and will continue to do so.

      You're admitting that the representatives of the people are out of sync with the people at least sometimes. That's a good step.

      Nope. Often this is a good thing, because on the whole, people are stupid and short-sighted. When it comes to a personal issue, like "I don't want to pay for an archaeologist", they choose one way. When the issue is phrased differently, like "I want my children to know about the native culture in this area", they choose differently. It's the job of government to figure out what specific policies lead to the greater good. The people, by vote or by petition, simply set that long-term target.

      Wrong - what's going on in your example is there is more than one way to effect learning about the native culture in your area, and phrased vaguely, people tend to treat that as "if there exists a method that would do X that I support, then I support X."

      You are claiming that people who say they support X support any method of bringing about X, so no matter how the government implements X, it is the will of the people. But again that's just wrong. If you really believe that, perhaps that's why you have such a low opinion of people. You're taking a common rhetorical trick and treating it as some kind of truth.

      People feel morally justified in everything they do, because people are very strongly biased, regardless of laws or any fixed morality.

      I know you're just exaggerating since you know people do in fact have the emotion of guilt and it comes in play sometimes.

      But I see what you're saying and you're largely right. It's really a separate issue from what I'm saying though.. certainly I didn't say the ONLY time people feel morally justified breaking the law is when a majority of society disagrees with the law. There is still a notable difference in that issues with broad public support mean more people think it's morally justified to break the law even if they themselves aren't doing it. Few people who don't rob banks think it's ok for others to rob banks. Plenty of people who don't smoke pot think it's ok for others to smoke pot. To me that feels like a different level of moral support from society.

    99. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by adolf · · Score: 1

      And your data was clearly vague, and therefore unreliable.

    100. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      My data was not any vaguer than yours. Washington, DC is as non-vague as Findlay, Ohio. In addition, vagueness does not imply unreliability.

    101. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by adolf · · Score: 1

      Fine. On average, your data was vague.

      And yes, vagueness does imply unreliability: If the data is so vague that I simply cannot independently verify that the data is correct, then I must assume that it is every bit as [un]reliable as "someone on the Internet said so."

      And that is, obviously, pretty far down on the reliability scale.

    102. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      You sure are trying hard to justify your bias.

    103. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by adolf · · Score: 1

      What bias?

    104. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      What bias?

      Your personal bias of your example versus my anecdote, as I previously pointed out. On average, my data was vague? Really, I was unaware you could average vagueness. Also, the difference between vagueness and unreliability is the same as the difference between precision and accuracy, though I can hardly fault you as that is a common failing among the populace.

    105. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by adolf · · Score: 1

      Reliable data can be verified, much as reliable software can be. It can be proven.

      Vague data cannot be. And it can not be proven, much less verified.

      There, an analogy! This being Slashdot, I think we're done here.

      You and your anecdotes can go and play together now.

    106. Re:TFA says that they can apply for relief by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      Reliable data can be verified, much as reliable software can be. It can be proven.

      Vague data cannot be. And it can not be proven, much less verified.

      There, an analogy! This being Slashdot, I think we're done here.

      You and your anecdotes can go and play together now.

      Like I said, you don't know the difference between precision and accuracy.

  12. FUCK that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    And, here I thought things were getting so bad in the US and that Canada seems so fair and so safe.... This is an incredibly unfair law. So, what happens if the property owner refuses to hire an archaeologist ? It's their own damn property. Unbelievable.

  13. Idiot lawmakers by gweihir · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The next such skeleton found will just go into the trash...

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Idiot lawmakers by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yep, because of muckraking reporting that neglects to mention that the couple can file for relief which will almost certainly be granted.

    2. Re:Idiot lawmakers by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The next such skeleton found will just go into the trash...

      Not necessarily a good idea either. In some places, trash is sorted manually, and human remains certainly will trigger police attention. Better not throw any identifiable items (envelopes...) into the same trash bag.

      Better just leave it in the ground, that way you also have plausible deniability ("sorry, I just didn't notice anything weird...")

    3. Re:Idiot lawmakers by whatthef*ck · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yep, because of muckraking reporting that neglects to mention that the couple can file for relief which will almost certainly be granted.

      That doesn't mean the law is in any way just. In fact, laws that have arbitrary and selective enforcement built in are among the worst kinds.

    4. Re:Idiot lawmakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TFA - the original one in The Star, that is - does mention the option to apply for financial relief. Helps if you read it before commenting on it.

    5. Re:Idiot lawmakers by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      No. Just no. The title of the article says the find will "cost" the couple $5k. The subtitle says the same thing. The first 3 paragraphs are about how they're going to have to pay and why and snarking at how ridiculous the law was. Then, after another half dozen paragraphs, and after a "more articles from the star" link box, they mention that the couple won't have to pay. That's practically the definition of abusing the format to sell stories that aren't really stories.

    6. Re:Idiot lawmakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and toss plenty of lime on it.

    7. Re:Idiot lawmakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it easier to throw something in the garbage or apply for relief? Doing paperwork is still a cost.

    8. Re:Idiot lawmakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nope, it's the laws that have no room for exception and interpretation that are among the worst kinds.

      Laws where you can show mercy, where you can recognize the limits of human capacity, are actually among the best kinds.

      At least, as long as humans continue to be imperfect.

    9. Re:Idiot lawmakers by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I was not thinking straight in the face of this much stupidity.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    10. Re:Idiot lawmakers by stymy · · Score: 1

      Why do you assume that the process to get relief is arbitrary? I'm sure they have some reasonable guidelines written somewhere.

    11. Re:Idiot lawmakers by whatthef*ck · · Score: 1

      Why do you assume that the process to get relief is arbitrary? I'm sure they have some reasonable guidelines written somewhere.

      Really? What makes you so sure?

    12. Re:Idiot lawmakers by whatthef*ck · · Score: 1

      Nope, it's the laws that have no room for exception and interpretation that are among the worst kinds.

      Laws where you can show mercy, where you can recognize the limits of human capacity, are actually among the best kinds.

      At least, as long as humans continue to be imperfect.

      I prefer my justice blind, thank you.

      That's not to say I think that laws can't prescribe a range for punishments, for example 1 to 5 years in prison for something, with a judge considering various factors while deciding the actual sentence.

      But there should be no built-in provision for non-enforcement. If you're not comfortable with everyone being equally subjected to a law, perhaps the activity in question should not be illegal.

      In this case, the couple did nothing illegal, they're just being penalized because of what happened on their property centuries before they were born. That goes against the notion of basic fairness held by most people. That's why the law has to contain provisions for "relief".

    13. Re:Idiot lawmakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well duh. Dig it up! Clean it. Place in your rlivingroom. A super nice discussion piece. If someone asks claim you found it in a yard sale somewhere :D

  14. Eh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Honestly, what did this couple expect by reporting the find?

    We wanna preserve our heratage or some crap... Pay us? Nope.. that's gonna cost YOU money..

    We're gonna be famous? Yeah i think this is what they were betting on...

    Plain ol greed is the only way i can see this happening... And.. it worked out well.

    1. Re:Eh by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Uhh, no. They wanted to keep the skeleton buried on the property, not sell it off or create some attraction out of it. At most it would have been a conversation topic for a little while then ignored.

    2. Re:Eh by Another,+completely · · Score: 1

      Honestly, what did this couple expect by reporting the find?

      It's an interesting thing about Canadians: if they know they are legally required to report a human skeleton found buried on their land, they are very likely to do it just because they are supposed to. (And if they didn't know that law for a fact ahead of time, then they would probably be able to guess.) I'm not saying people follow every law in every situation, but the default course of action is generally to follow the law unless there is a good reason to do otherwise.

    3. Re:Eh by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      How about just wanting to do their civic duty? Allowing historians to have a look at it (but not expecting to have to foot the bill for this...)

    4. Re:Eh by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I could never live in country full of such despicable law abiders. They are getting what they deserve.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Eh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "unless there is a good reason to do otherwise."

      Now they and people like them have 5,000 good reasons not to follow the law.

    6. Re:Eh by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Honestly, what did this couple expect by reporting the find?

      We wanna preserve our heratage or some crap... Pay us? Nope.. that's gonna cost YOU money..

      We're gonna be famous? Yeah i think this is what they were betting on...

      Plain ol greed is the only way i can see this happening... And.. it worked out well.

      Since of morality?
      Desire to obey the law?
      Honesty?
      Any number of reasons besides greed. Somebody is projecting.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    7. Re:Eh by stoploss · · Score: 1

      I could never live in country full of such despicable law abiders. They are getting what they deserve.

      Verily. I doubt I would ever be able to fit in a culture where it is presumed that the law deserves the benefit of the doubt.

      Good thing we have a border, eh? They can engage in their cultural predilections there and we can pursue ours here, without either group having to force their perspective on the other.

      I just hope their perspective isn't a spreading meme. Ugh.

    8. Re:Eh by ahodgson · · Score: 1

      Having observed Americans in action, I don't think we're all that different. Outside of certain select sub-populations, both countries are very law abiding.

      In fact, Americans are probably the most used to being told what to do and how to do it, and being abused by law enforcement whenever they don't, of any country in the world.

  15. Any interested archaeologists? by LordNimon · · Score: 1

    Surely they could find some archeologists would be willing to pay the bill for exclusive access to the site?

    --
    And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
    To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
    1. Re:Any interested archaeologists? by Jabrwock · · Score: 4, Informative
      The local band is raising the money to have the skeleton re-buried at their cemetery.

      The issue is that they are required to also have an archeological survey done to ensure there aren't other artifacts buried there too.

      --
      Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
    2. Re:Any interested archaeologists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah prolly tax payer money

  16. Found on the beach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The Dutch solution for that problem is to find stuff of archeological value "on the beach". Or you pretend you saw nothing. Best pour concrete over it to make sure you will never accidentally find it again.

    1. Re:Found on the beach by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      It was part of my moms collection of primitive art. Grandfathered on all the artifact laws. Abracadabra, it's an asset that I can sell.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  17. Next time.. by Chewbacon · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...turn it into doggy treats.

    --
    Chewbacon
    The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
  18. Keep your mouth shut by koan · · Score: 1

    You might find yourself surprised at how few problems you have if you do.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  19. Carefully... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Using surgical gloves while handing... carefully dig up the bones, catalog their positions, and find a spot to rebury them right next to your enemy's house.
    Cover with sod.
    Make a call from a public payphone with a disguised voice to the authorities.

    Done.

    1. Re:Carefully... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hahahaha, the culprit forgot to hide his face, and we have dna off of the phone. We've got 'em now!!!!

  20. blackmailed into giving up the find, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Suave said after uncovering the remains were that of a human, she planned to keep the historical find, even naming the deceased individual “Sephira” after her granddaughter. The couple decided to relinquish the remains after they were informed that upon keeping them, their property’s deed would be reissued to state there was a cemetery on the premises.

    1. Re:blackmailed into giving up the find, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      their property’s deed would be reissued to state there was a cemetery on the premises.

      God forbid they have to tell people there's a body buried in the backyard.

  21. similar rules elsewhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here the initial digging to build on site that is a potential historic site requires a archeologist present to see if there is anything of interest, but if they find something you still have the option of leaving it alone so some one can escavate it later, if not you have pay to get a bunch archeologist to do if you want to go on but they have to give you a fixed budget

  22. How t f by rossdee · · Score: 3, Funny

    "an aboriginal woman who died at age 24 ;

    How did an Aboriginal woman manage to travel all the way from Australia to Canada 400 years ago ?

    1. Re:How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a difference between aboriginal and Aboriginal.

    2. Re: How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Aboriginal doesn't mean from Australia.

    3. Re:How t f by EJB · · Score: 1

      You're kidding right? Of course when you were a bit unsure about a term you found on the Internet, you used the Internet to look it up because it only takes seconds, and you're only posting this here to yank our legs right?

      "1. being the first or earliest known of its kind present in a region "
      ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aboriginal )

      "1. Having existed in a region from the beginning: aboriginal forests. See Synonyms at native."
      ( http://www.thefreedictionary.com/aboriginal )

    4. Re:How t f by CyberSlugGump · · Score: 3, Informative

      "an aboriginal woman who died at age 24 ;

      How did an Aboriginal woman manage to travel all the way from Australia to Canada 400 years ago ?

      Aborigine does not just refer to people in Australia. See Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada

    5. Re:How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe her boomerang wouldn't come back.

    6. Re:How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They mean she was an injun.

    7. Re: How t f by rossdee · · Score: 0

      It does in the Southern Hemisphere (I was born 'across the ditch' from the West Island)

      I thought the the Native people of Canada were called "First Nation" (except for the Eskimos who are called Inuit )

    8. Re:How t f by darkshot117 · · Score: 1

      That's a good question... it must have been Ancient Aliens that helped her, obviously.

    9. Re: How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And there goes the slim hope that you were joking...

    10. Re:How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boat...

    11. Re:How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She walks on water...like all women.

    12. Re:How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "an aboriginal woman who died at age 24 ;

      How did an Aboriginal woman manage to travel all the way from Australia to Canada 400 years ago ?

      Dingos.

    13. Re:How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "an aboriginal woman who died at age 24 ;

      How did an Aboriginal woman manage to travel all the way from Australia to Canada 400 years ago ?

      She didn't. Learn to read, dumbass.

    14. Re:How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "an aboriginal woman who died at age 24 ;

      How did an Aboriginal woman manage to travel all the way from Australia to Canada 400 years ago ?

      Aborigine does not just refer to people in Australia. See Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada

      That's The Joke! (TM)

    15. Re:How t f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except he wasn't joking. Nice try, though.

  23. It's in our way...now it isn't! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    A simple principle where The People, if they find an issue So Damned Important, should be required To Pay For Their Conceit Thru Government...

    Would Be Nice.

    It's supposed to be this way in the US with the prohibition against seizure without just compensation. "But that would make environmental regulations way too costly!" Well, then what in god's name is government doing ladling that on private citizens? If IT's So Damned Important To The People...

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:It's in our way...now it isn't! by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      It's supposed to be this way in the US with the prohibition against seizure without just compensation. "But that would make environmental regulations way too costly!" Well, then what in god's name is government doing ladling that on private citizens? If IT's So Damned Important To The People...

      Whole different story. Most of the complaints about environmental regulations being "effectively a taking" are about people who buy undeveloped land as a form of speculation. That land doesn't have zoning or environmental approval for what they hope it'll be used for some day, but they get upset when such restrictions are placed on it because it kills the possibility of getting rich from their speculation. Screw 'em. Real estate speculation is an utterly unproductive activity. Existing, or even imminently planned uses are almost always grandfathered in when new restrictions are put in place.

  24. Same USA Whackiness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I found a Native American artifact in my back yard while digging a hole for a tree. I contacted the local archeological society about it mostly to establish its authenticity. Next thing I know they're all over me to bring it in to their meeting, register my "archelolgical site" with the state, etc.
    Lucky for me I never used my real name or address. If you want your private property to remain private remember to keep yer damn yap shut about anything interesting you find there.

    1. Re:Same USA Whackiness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right.

      Just think of all the grief ensuing when the buyers of my old houses dig in the back yard and find the hookers. Better to just bury them again and avoid the inconvenience.

  25. ghost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ah so thats why they're fence and house were haunted. the not so free ghosts!

  26. That's Bureaucracy for You by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 0

    The act, which requires evaluation for all properties found to house human remains, has the Canadian couple stuck with a big bill.

    Gubrment needs its tax fees, you know. Fairness or competence got nothing to do with it :/

  27. Re: 5 9's perfection? by Jabrwock · · Score: 1

    Demand 100% perfection. That'll solve everything. And cost an arm and a leg. How much more in taxes are you willing to pay to never have to call them to say "hey, there's been a mistake"?

    --
    Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
  28. Couple Charged $5k For Finding Old Skelton by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where's the tech angle? This headline sounds more like a National Inquirer article.

    1. Re:Couple Charged $5k For Finding Old Skelton by Jabrwock · · Score: 1

      It was written by the Toronto Star, so you're not far off...

      --
      Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
    2. Re:Couple Charged $5k For Finding Old Skelton by Ost99 · · Score: 1

      It's blame the government day at slashdot today.
      Been a lot of those lately.

      --
      ---- Sig. gone.
  29. Moral Of The Story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Be Evil and save $5000.

  30. Re: 5 9's perfection? by Richy_T · · Score: 1

    Ironically, if they eliminated all the bullshit that leads to that kind of mistake, we'd probably all be paying less taxes.

  31. Wasting money by GrahamJ · · Score: 2

    Whew I'm sure glad we didn't waste that $5k of taxpayer's money. So how are those F-35's coming along, Harper?

  32. Slashdot by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    So it's just a general "laws that seem a bit unfair" blog, now?

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  33. The curse still rings true! by dbIII · · Score: 0

    The fools built on an ancient Indian burial ground and suffered the curse - of a $5000 fine.
    Wait that's not it, the curse was imposed by a stupid "user pays" idea of running a government that's not just cursing these folk. There's no point trying to get a government to act like private enterprise since you end up with automatic monopoly and plenty of casual injustice without even trying.

  34. Re:Title Insurance? by Jabrwock · · Score: 1
    I was just thinking "wouldn't insurance cover this"?

    Especially in Ontario. It's a known risk. Like building your museum on a known ancient meeting place like the Forks in Winnipeg. Bound to be tons of archaeological finds every time the backhoe scoops the ground.

    --
    Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
  35. Re: 5 9's perfection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the case of the IRS specifically, 100% perfection is pretty easy to achieve: simplify the tax code. It has the result of being cheaper, too. And while they may still make a mistake, it will be easier and less costly to prove.

    The problem isn't perfection, it's onerous rules that 9 times out of 10 can't achieve their desired goals in the first place, but still put the burden on the individual.

  36. Kennewick Man by PPH · · Score: 2, Informative

    Be careful you don't find artifacts that might conflict with Native Americans assertions about their history. Kennewick Man, the remains of a person found in Eastern Washington State dating back over 9000 years but not anatomically similar to the natives of the time caused quite a bit of controversy. The Indian tribes of the area claimed the body as their property in spite of scientific evidence because it could conflict with their oral history. Not stated in the Wikipedia article: The site of the find was destroyed to prevent further archeological finds that could challenge tribal mythology. Where's the First Amendment when we need it?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  37. Your property, your responsibility by Typical+Slashdotter · · Score: 1

    The fact that the couple is responsible for the costs makes enough sense; you're responsible for taking care of your property, not the government. If you found chemical waste hidden in some trap door in your basement, would you expect the state to foot the bill to destroy that for you? Same thing here.

    1. Re:Your property, your responsibility by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Not the state no. This is Canada. You might mean province.

      But in Canada, people do not mineral rights on their property. Mineral rights are owned by the government and cannot be purchased... only leased. It has been this way in Canada since the early 1900's.

      So yes, I would expect the province to take care of it, and if it were of unnatural causes, they could then proceed to make the individual or corporation that caused it foot the bill.

  38. I'm no expert on Canadian law... by zullnero · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But the reason most of this works the way it does in most governments is that originally, the state or university system covers the cost of the evaluation as part of the law because it's of national importance. Also, digging up the graves of people's ancestors and then throwing the remains in the trash deeply offends a majority of people, especially tribes or such that may claim that person as one of their ancestors.

    Then politicians (usually on the conservative side, or the "moderate middle") decide that the government can't be "burdened" with what amounts to a trifle of spending every year (seriously, it's like the equivalent of maybe a buck in your pocket in government budget terms). A reasonable majority of average citizens can't wrap their heads around the average government budget in perspective to their own so they cheer it on, vote it through. Mostly they don't even remember or understand why their parents or grandparents passed such a law in the first place, but not unlike the politicians, feel that they need to "make their mark". So, they turn the cost over to individuals. But the law stays on the books because a lobby or two makes a really sharp point about how the end result is that individuals would end up digging up corpses of their ancestors to install swimming pools and not, you know, properly care for those remains afterward. (aka trash bin coffins)

    Then years later, a story gets posted on Slashdot, and the readers are outraged that the government, with it's "highly repressive laws" would dare to impose such a cost on individual property owners without understanding the full history of said law. That their parents or they themselves may have actually been in favor of causing in the first place but they "forgot" because it was "boring".

    1. Re:I'm no expert on Canadian law... by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      the reason most of this works the way it does in most governments

      Without some specific examples, such a claim is way too broad to even be worth considering.

    2. Re:I'm no expert on Canadian law... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the real reason is all levels of government in Canada are held hostage constantly by native groups. Blackmail is just the way of things up here when dealing with land disputes so the municipality or provincial or federal authority is going to do anything they can to avoid conflict and hang the ordinary citizen out to dry in the process (Google the Caledonia native occupation for context). The average American won't understand how different it is in Canada when dealing with natives. To put it bluntly, we (and by we, I mean early Canadian politicians) bought the natives off rather than displace and eradicatethem like the U.S. did under the banner of Manifest Destiny. We are now saddled with this decision that was likely deemed benign and trivial at the time, but is becoming more and more difficult to manage in today's legal and politically correct climate.

      Canada's native population is approaching an order of magnitude increase over what was here before Europeans arrived. Eventually they're going to just take their shit back. At least if the Muslim population lets them.

  39. The name has changed over time by phorm · · Score: 2

    I've heard:
    Aboriginal
    First Nation
    Native
    Indian
    etc

    It seems like a bit of a mess, actually, since various laws seem to use difference names depending on the era in which they were created (e.g. the "Indian Act"), and people from different generations tend to be stuck on a given word. When I was young it was "Native," but First Nations appears to be the currently correct term.

  40. They got off lightly compared to others by dschl · · Score: 3, Interesting

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/04/19/bc-diggingbill.html

    One family on Vancouver Island got charged $35,000 for archeologists to check for arrowheads. I've heard of archeologists in BC (same firm as the $35k one) who registered a site near where I live onto the archeology registry without the owner's knowledge, because they thought they found arrowheads. Later on, when the local First Nations archeologist looked at them, she said "They're just rocks", and tossed them.

    The adage for ranchers when it comes to endangered species used to be (and still may be) "shoot, shovel, and shut up". Same with artifacts in Canada, if you're smart.

    --
    Slashdot - the place where you can look like a genius by restating the obvious
    1. Re:They got off lightly compared to others by AxemRed · · Score: 1

      From the article you linked:

      "If society is benefiting from whatever the government is doing, society should pay for it, not the landowner," said CEO Robert Laing. "The cost can be horrendous. And it isn't fair."

      This this this.

    2. Re:They got off lightly compared to others by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if it is believed that archaeological evidence is found, the archaeologist actually has a DUTY TO REPORT it to their overseeing body. it is a condition of admission to the ranks of professional consulting archaeologists. it is for the purpose of ensuring that companies do not do the opposite of your story, where a company hires and buries studies until they obtain the one that they want.

  41. What is property? by HalfFlat · · Score: 3, Informative

    It is by no means clear that anyone has a fundamental right to own land. Indeed, few individuals own land outright — in common law states, real property is typically held fee simple.

    If all land were owned and its use restricted to private individuals, how could one live without being a property owner, or being beholden to one? Land exists independently of human art, and our literal existence demands that we at the very least reside in it, breathe the air on it, and so forth. Morally, the private, exclusive use of land must come with an obligation that that ownership benefits our society more than a lack of ownership would — there is an obligation of stewardship, if nothing else.

    The system whereby our governments enforce property ownership is almost certainly better than one where individuals maintain the exclusive use and benefit of land by force. Yet it is by no means a natural system, and those who benefit by it to the exclusion of their fellows should not be divorced from the obligations associated with it.

    1. Re:What is property? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      those who benefit by it to the exclusion of their fellows should not be divorced from the obligations associated with it

      Well put, and utterly meaningless without any specifics about those obligations.

    2. Re:What is property? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If all land were owned and its use restricted to private individuals, how could one live without being a property owner, or being beholden to one?

      That's a strawman argument. There's a sensible middle ground, where people truly own their properties, but other land (streets, parks, etc.) is owned collectively.

    3. Re:What is property? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Society consists of a large number of individuals. Would you mind explaining how any individual of a society, none of whom live on, depend on, maintain, or add value to, a particular piece of real estate, has any valid claim on that real estate that one man lives on, depends on, maintains and adds value to?

      The fact that society consists of a large number of individuals does not confer upon them rights that not one of them has individually. All it gives them is the immoral power to violate the rights of an individual.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  42. And then there's the ghosts by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    They think $5000 is bad? Just wait until the ancient aboriginal ghosts show up and start poltergeisting the shit out of the place. The damage done by their dishes flying all over and mirrors smashing plus professional exorcists will definitely exceed $5000.

  43. Re: Star headlines are almost always misleading by Jabrwock · · Score: 1

    TFA - the original one in The Star, that is - does mention the option to apply for financial relief. Helps if you read it before commenting on it.

    The Star does that a lot. Gins up a headline, then reports the actual facts down at the bottom after they've finished editorializing.

    --
    Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
  44. Well there's always Time Team... by Keill · · Score: 1

    Or not :(

    --
    'Stupidity is an often fatal disease' - R. A. Heinlein
  45. A lesson so worn it need not be repeated by spune · · Score: 1, Funny

    Don't build your house on an Indian graveyard :\

  46. Very punny by sjbe · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is another classic example of how strict liability laws cause grave injustices.

    Please tell me that pun was intentional...

    1. Re:Very punny by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      Please tell me that pun was intentional...

      I thought it was a dead ringer...

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    2. Re:Very punny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That doesn't even make sense.

    3. Re:Very punny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you wouldn't be the one to ask about storing dead ringers?

  47. And this is why by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    corporations ar enot to be trusted in any way, shape or form, as they will screw over everything and everyone for a quick buck.

    1. Re:And this is why by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Just corporations? Are you sure you don't also want to blame partnerships, sole proprietorships, and babysitters? Are you including charitable corporations in your attack?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  48. Right, so what will happen now is... by FuzzNugget · · Score: 1

    Hmmm, that's interesting. Well, into the trash it goes.

    Because while most people want to do the right thing, they're not going to if you ensure that no good deed goes unpunished.

  49. Sensationalist title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RTFA:

    Bob Bailey, the MPP for the area, said he has spoken to the minister of consumer services (the Funeral, Burial and Cremation Services Act falls under her purview) and her staff, and intends to make sure Sauve won’t have to pay.

    1. Re:Sensationalist title by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      RTFA:

      Bob Bailey, the MPP for the area, said he has spoken to the minister of consumer services (the Funeral, Burial and Cremation Services Act falls under her purview) and her staff, and intends to make sure Sauve won’t have to pay.

      Party pooper. We were having fun discussing this.

  50. Rewarding Citizenship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This appears to be a recurring way of getting citizens involved in community issues in several countries. Charging them big time. Why don't Governments understand that citizenship must be rewarded instead of penalized? Unfortunately this is becoming the new norm.

  51. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by yurtinus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wait a tick, did you budget for an archeological survey the last time you dug a hole to plant a tree in your backyard? It's fine for the law to require a survey of finds of historical value, but the law must recognize that it can be a tremendous burden on the people that find it and provide support for those tasks. If you're offended at the idea of people covering up potentially significant finds, you should probably work to incentivise reporting these finds. At the moment, it sounds like you're saying "Oh, that belongs to all of humanity, but you need to pay to dig it up. Reality bites, doesn't it?"

    --
    +1 Disagree
  52. Your property, your finds. by Darkness404 · · Score: 2

    This absurdity that the government "owns" "historical" (and they often use a very broad definition of "historical") found on your property has done much more harm than good, especially in Europe.

    What this is saying to those who might find historical artifacts is to either ignore them or avoid recording them. This is counter-productive to the preservation of history. Instead, what needs to happen is we need to let the market help history. For example, a dug arrowhead is unlikely to fetch much money at market, but a dug arrowhead with a story behind it will often fetch much more, thus giving an incentive to have finds "checked out" because that means extra $$$ for you when you sell it.

    Of course it also has a more outrageous claim, the claim to own things on your own property. Whatever is buried on your land, be it an Anglo-Saxon hoard, oil, or whatever is yours to do with as you wish so long as you own the land.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  53. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Maybe some insurance company would be willing to offer insurance to cover the costs of an archaeological survey should one be needed. Since it seems to be a rare yet costly problem, it would seem to be along the lines of exactly the kind of thing somebody would buy insurance for. Same as car, house, or medical insurance, one should be able purchase insurance in the event that some ancient remains are found, and cause the project to the held up

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  54. Verizon Fees by Linkreincarnate · · Score: 0

    That's how their defending this? It was only 300 calls? Why did it cost 20 million then? You can't thwart terrorism for less than 67,000 per call? Any way you slice it it still smells bad.

  55. Arch studies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Interestingly this figures into my line of work. I am a planner in Ontario who works on the development side and the municipal side.

    Contractors are required - by law - to inform OPP of any human remains encountered during construction. No ifs, ands, or buts. This is so that any victims of foul play, and/or archaeologically significant finds can be documented. Canada/Ontario implements various treaties to enable the native tribes to collect their ancestors and bury them. there is no ambiguity or missing intention. The whole of Ontario used to be the territory to some tribe or another and is rife /w lands that have the potential for archaeological finds that are significant. These finds can tell us of how people lived, worked, and died. this is part of the bargain we made to purchase Ontario. the PPS covers aspects of this, so to do the ontario consulting archaeological guidelines and other MMAH internal webpages.

    Ontario operates under a set of developer-pays polices. The developer, big or small, pays for all required archaeological studies. This is because they take the rewards and the risks. In this case, the couple are bitching because they took the risk of installing a fence (which would have benefited themselves), and discovered some remains. they likely made a decision to continue with the fence - which required complete excavation.

    The costs identified here are pitifully small and the couple got off easy. I will guarantee that the archaeologist is not charging all of their time on the basis of the extra-ordinary nature of this find (i have seen many not fully bill huge portions of work as a loss-leader). Stage 1 (tabletop) assessments run 1.5k to maybe 5k and are paper studies only, stage 2 (test-pitting) goes up to 10-30k, stage 3-4 (grid refinement, total excavation and complete documentation) run up into the 100k's and could take years.

    it is the cost of doing business. The province does not have the resources to perform archaeological investigations, they act in a QA role only. This case likely triggered a Stage 4 study over a limited geographic area - 10's of metres in either direction and 2-3 m down. the 5k likely includes contractor time to remove the body under supervision (1-5 days) and is pretty much nothing, when you consider getting a rental backhoe might be 100$/hr + the supervising archaeologist (if senior - up to 250$/hr - more likely in the 125$/hr range). It basically doubled the soft costs of the fence.

    most of the public are ignorant that as individuals in canada and ontario - you do not have sovereignty over your property and the contents under the land. A number of rights were reserved to the queen and treaty nations (Indians). This 5,000 is a small price to pay for compensate the ancestral and present day indian tribes.

    1. Re:Arch studies by mark-t · · Score: 1

      If $5k is such a small price to pay, why doesn't the province pay it instead of burdening the people who happened to find it, and in particular.... who aren't profiting from it?

    2. Re:Arch studies by mc6809e · · Score: 1

      I am a planner in Ontario

      And the rest can eat cake, right?

    3. Re:Arch studies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those corpse are already burried, and have been for the past centuries. There is no need to move them. This all aboriginal is strictly non-sense. The Canadian and Provincial Government are giving them way too much rights...

      That said, just SSS.

  56. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 0

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  57. Shovel up, Shut up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This issue is quite common in British Columbia. There are burial sites everywhere and god help you if its on your property. The best rule of thumb is shovel up and shut up. No good deed goes unpunished as they say.

  58. Re: 5 9's perfection? by davester666 · · Score: 1

    No, you wouldn't. It would be spent on something else.

    --
    Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  59. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by barc0001 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Why should this be on the insurance company. The intent of the law is the artifact is culturally important and belongs to "all", so why should its recovery only be subsidized by a small portion of the "all" (i.e. the customers of that particular insurance company)? The only thing this article has taught me to do is if I dig and find remains on my property, fill them back in and forget it ever happened. I don't have 5K lying around for this shit.

  60. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by morgauxo · · Score: 2

    Aparently humanity needs a bailout from people who build fences? Screw the individual if it can benefit the masses?

  61. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by dywolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    did i say anything about bailing out?
    did i say i can do whatever i want?

    i said its easy to say there ought to be a law, but not so easy to pay for it. which is why the burden of cost in these kinds of laws is passed onto the "victim" in the first place: the law would never pass otherwise "because its expensive"...so they make the law "Free" by passing the buck, literally. but why should this couple be forced to pay the bill for an archeological dig on tehir own property due to completely random, unlikely and and unforseen circumstances? this is precisely why the 3S's came about.

    you're an idiotic troll, and not a terribly good one.

    --
    The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  62. Personal Responsibility FTW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear constituent,

    Thank you for your generous votes during the last election. As you know the Conservative government is following through on our promise to reduce taxes, following overwhelming voter demand for more personal responsibility. We thank you for contributing to Canadian culture through your find, and congratulate you for "kicking in". Your contribution to the Department of Burials will help us attain our goals while giving you the satisfaction of taking personal responsibility for the heritage of Canada.

    Sincerely,

    The Conservative Government

  63. Animals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Sauve, who said the duo originally believed the skeleton to be from bones of an animal, called the Ontario Provincial Police to investigate;"

    News flash: humans are animals too, not plants or minerals. Although when it comes to my brother-in-law you could make a good case that he's a potted plant.

  64. No good deed goes unpunished by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not a cynical saying, but a 'truism'. You are getting the usual shill scum defend the Canadian government- a side-effect of Canada backing every racist atrocity carried out by Israel. The Zionist crowd loves to do favours for the child-abusing horrors that run Canada (the history of state abuse of children in Canada is probably the worst in Human history).

    Government is good- go back to sleep you sheeple. How many times to you see an army of posters on Slashdot pushing this position? I hope you all saw that video of the women being arrested in a family court in the USA. Her crime? A court official had just illegally taken her into a side-office and had subject her to a serious sexual assault. When she re-appeared in the main court room, she attempted to make a formal complaint of assault to the judge. The judge, a woman, turned her back to the victim, ignoring her terrified pleas, and played with the women's 2-tear old daughter.

    The fat slob who sexual assaulted her ORDERED her to recant in court, promising she would be arrested and lose her child if she did not. In terror, the woman did recant, but only to escape his physical clutches so she could them move to the microphone and directly address the judge - where she repeated the claims of assault. The judge continued to ignore the victim, and the attacker, along with a marshal, physically restrained and handcuffed the woman.

    Meanwhile, the 2-year-old girl had moved to the scene of the attack, and was begging the two large male thugs to leave her Mommy alone.

    The video is so distressing, it is the first time I have seen 100% of the comments express outrage at the abuse of ordinary people by officials employed by Obama. The women was in court to finalise some detail of a divorce. After the arrest, she was taken to prison, and her kid taken to a juvenile facility, traumatising her for life. Internal affairs got involved, and it transpired that women have been sexually assaulted at this family court in Las Vegas on a regular basis. The judges and the sexual perverts were working as a double-team- the various male officials would abuse the victim under the pretence of carrying out an unwarranted drug search, and the various judges would ignore the pleas of the victim as the victim was warned that any official complaint would mean jail. The refusal of the judge to acknowledge or intercede on behalf of the victim ensured the victim simply gave up.

    The scandal is one of the worst in American court history. Yet the shills still tell you that the government loves you.

    Or you might Google "cash for kids" if you can stand having the last shred of belief in the system completely blown away.

    1. Re:No good deed goes unpunished by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look everybody - another anti-Semitic guzzler of Ron Paul's dick juice.

  65. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe some insurance company would be willing to offer insurance to cover the costs of an archaeological survey should one be needed. Since it seems to be a rare yet costly problem, it would seem to be along the lines of exactly the kind of thing somebody would buy insurance for. Same as car, house, or medical insurance, one should be able purchase insurance in the event that some ancient remains are found, and cause the project to the held up

    average joe response: "you sound like a typical insurance salesman... i'll pass... I'm willing to take that risk"
    when remains are found "I'm not willing to take that risk"

  66. Next time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Next time, someone will just close the dig, and not report it.
    Or dig around it. and find "creative" solutions. (Like a convenient pillar.)

  67. Emergent Effects by necro351 · · Score: 1

    This is another case of legislators not looking at very basic emergent effects. This article takes a big step toward making this law, and its consequences, widely known. This law, combined with widespread awareness of it, will obviously have chilling effects on archaeology in Canada. Regardless of what you think is right or wrong, or who should pay, the simple fact is that forcing the property owner to fund a proper excavation of these sorts of artifacts effectively means artifacts found by property owners during a construction project will be repeatedly reburied while no authorities are notified. If we do not want that, we have to change the law. You cannot change human nature.

    --
    --"You are your own God"--
  68. Property "Ownership" by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    In most common-law jurisdictions, you cannot "own" property outright. Where your deed is held fee-simple, you do not own the land at all. You merely own the right to improve upon it, generally by placing structures upon the surface of it, or to a depth reasonable, necessary, and blessed by your government overlords, as with a basement.

    You don't own the land beneath the surface or any of the mineral content thereof.

    You don't own the vegetation that grows in it, nor the right for your animals to eat it.

    You don't own the water that falls on it, runs into it, or out of it.

    You own nothing except a conceptual privilege to build your house on it, subject to the rules, regulations, and conditions set forth by your lords and their "zoning" rules.

    1. Re:Property "Ownership" by Punko · · Score: 1

      Except for those of us who do own the mineral rights below our land :)

      Also, vegetation growing on the land is considered an improvement, and hence belongs to the landowner. Formal grazing is a land use, subject to zoning.

      You are correct on water, but then only a complete idiot would try to claim water running through his land.

      --
      If only we could fall into a woman's arms without falling into her hands
    2. Re:Property "Ownership" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It also depends on jurisdiction to some degree. Here, you only own the vegetation IF it is an improvement. Natural vegetation is not an improvement because you did not put it there.

      My former city has actually sued people for removing wild vegetation on their own property and won in court on this premise. Then again, they're a bunch of tree-hugging hippy leftists who thing that plants have feelings.

      All improvements are subject to zoning, and there is zoning on the books there that requires a permit to remove any wild vegetation, and another permit to plant non-wild vegetation.

      Thankfully, we just moved 1 mile outside the city limit so now we don't have to pay taxes to those idiots to help them pay for their stupid zoning rules.

  69. ...but that makes sense... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We don't do "common sense," here at SlashDot.

    You need to pull some extreme (and completely devoid of any basis in reality) rhetoric out of your bunghole.

  70. Herp. See also: derp by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Whatever they found AFTER they started work, could have been found prior to starting work.

    Really? If it's buried six feet underground?

    See round these here parts what I's a hailin' from, when we digs god-diggety-darn holes we starts em from the top.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  71. Prime Minister's Office by mantissa128 · · Score: 1

    Just get them to sign a cheque for it. They do this all the time.

  72. Your Rights Under Expropriation by tepples · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure none of the US Constitution applies, given this situation is not on American soil.

    True, but Canadian law includes similar verbiage. See Your Rights Under Expropriation.

  73. fake rhino horn by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    There's already a lot of fake rhino horn sold, one of my ideas was to have the government flood the market even more with convincing fakes. Using a 3D printer to make them would probably be a wash; I'm picturing something more like a mold and using bull horns as the base.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:fake rhino horn by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Molds cost a fortune and make the exact same part every time.

      3d printing has a big buzz with the 'trusting stupid eco conscious hipster' crowd. I could pay myself a nice salary before the 3d printed rhino horns were market failures (and maybe I could make a convincing fake).

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:fake rhino horn by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Molds cost a fortune and make the exact same part every time.

      Depends on how you define 'fortune' and how the mold actually works. I'm not picturing one of the really high pressure ones. As for 'exact copy' have somebody dressing them up after they come out, plus have a dozen different molds.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  74. No good deed goes unpunished by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should have tossed the bones into a land-fill and been done with it. It would have saved them a lot of money as well as time, and hassle.

  75. Re: 5 9's perfection? by Richy_T · · Score: 1

    Touche

  76. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by yurtinus · · Score: 1

    So... Build a fence in your backyard, pull out an insurance policy on that effort? This is something that can happen on extremely common and rudimentary household tasks. Literally, digging a hole in the backyard. You expect people to take out hole digging insurance policy for that bush they want to plant? There's simply no way unless it's going to be covered as part of the homeowner's insurance plan. You're looking at putting more effort into dealing with the paperwork of digging a hole than the effort you'd put in to shoveling.

    --
    +1 Disagree
  77. Can only sympathise with the folks by Kittenman · · Score: 1

    And I hope they had an alibi for the time the skeleton-owner went missing...

    --
    "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
  78. No matter if the body is freshor 400. by ralphaostrander · · Score: 1

    Just step over it and keep on going. Like the gas station guy during the DC shootings.

  79. Solution by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    Flood the market with fake rhino horn.

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  80. Re: typical, spoiled child attitude. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes. Society should be renumerated for allowing you to exercise your discretion over that piece of land - remember, property is theft, sanctioned by the state.

  81. Nope. by RodalynBrookes · · Score: 1

    Dig up a bag of bones, nope. Back goes the dirt.

  82. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

    In the UK we have something called Chancel Repair Liability insurance, designed to protect us from the incredibly unlikely event that the house you buy is on land that was once part of a rectory or glebe (land where a portion of the product of that land goes towards parish upkeep), meaning the current modern-day owner is then potentially subject to paying for the upkeep of the parish church buildings and lands. There was a case in the early 2000s of a parish claiming under this, for around £100,000 in repair bills.

    Besides, an actual insurance underwriter (not a broker) will insure you against anything. Just be prepared to pay for it.

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  83. Why worry? by danaris · · Score: 1

    Look, I shouldn't have to worry about these things.

    Maybe this is the fundamental problem: that, as a society, we have collectively decided that we shouldn't have to worry about government.

    This begets two problems. First, the exact problem you're complaining about: that not enough money gets spent on things, because people don't think they should have to worry about it, but they also don't want to pay more in taxes so that the government can pay someone competent to worry about it for them.

    Second, you end up with the people who have more time on their hands (generally, the people with more money), or who care significantly more (generally, the people at the various fringes), being the ones who are most involved in government. The latter of those leads to divisiveness, and the former leads to monied interests having a disproportionate say.

    So, in the end, I kind of agree with you that it would be nice not to have to worry about these things. They're the sort of thing that a well-run government should take care of on its own. But the way we as a society think about and treat our government has been pushing it in a direction for a few decades that would inevitably lead to just this kind of outcome.

    Dan Aris

    --
    Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
  84. It is a Law. You live in Canada. Deal with it. by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    As the title suggests this is a Canadian Law. A common one. One that everyone is subject to. I see this all the time (commercially at least) though my work, where companies are burdened with the cost/time of the exploration. It is the cost of doing business. If this happens on your private property you are subject to the same law.

    As for those to glibly say, oh well this will just make sure the next one goes into the garbage... Well that can describe a lot of laws. That is why there are severe punishments for those that do. You could use the same example of finding an endangered species on your private property, and rather than report/protect it (or whatever is required of the landowner) you destroy it, well you face the possible legal consequences.

    What are the chances of you getting caught? Probably low. However if you face large enough fines or jail time, well that is your decision to make.

    Most of what I see is companies finding artifacts during excavation, arrow heads and the like. Those can prompt this kind of response. The fact that it was actual human remains, means that likely there was no way around it. Is it unlucky from a personal money sense, ya. However you don't live in Cambodia or Sudan, you live in Canada and a citizen should be expected to follow the laws, you live a pretty privileged life compared to most people in the world. If you don't like it, then feel free to move to Liberia or where ever and see how much you like the "Laws" there. There are risks involved with buying anything, including property, or construction, and sometimes you have to pay a bit more than you might have expected.

    1. Re:It is a Law. You live in Canada. Deal with it. by ZorinLynx · · Score: 2

      The problem in this case is, the government wants to be able to excavate and study the remains. If that's the case, the government should have to pay for it. Requiring the homeowner to pay for it is absolutely absurd.

      And yes, this will result in the next time someone finds something, it will remain unreported. All because the law was stupid enough to not provide funding for dealing with the finds.

      $5000 is prohibitive for many people. I know if someone stuck me with a sudden $5000 bill I'd be in a world of hurt. If a law is going to require finds to be studied, the law should provide funding. Simple common sense.

  85. Obvious response to this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you find a skeleton while digging, dig it up, destroy it, dispose of the pieces and never tell anyone.

    Yes, that helps anthropology and advances knowledge plenty but there's zero incentive to cooperate.

  86. Conveniently omitted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "the couple has the option to file a request for the Registrar of Cemeteries to handle the unearthing if the cost would be considered an “undue financial burden,” a move that would result in the registrar reimbursing the couple in full."

  87. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This wouldn't be "on the insurance company". They would cover it in a way that made them money. Like all insurance does. It would still be "on you", you would just be able to manage the risk better.

  88. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dig em up, don't tell anyone. Let them sit somewhere for a couple of years. Find out what they are, and if they are valuable in any way. Sell on ebay, or send to some archeology student anonymously. (i almost wrote museum. But it'd be much more fun to send them to students. Museums are already full of old crap, and students might still have passion for them)

  89. Re:typical, spoiled child attitude. by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

    That's a misrepresentation of insurance.
    Ideally there isn't any additional burden on other insurers... I.e. the premium is the cost of the event multiplied by the probablility of the event plus some fees.
    The mean balance should simply be the fees... hence the insurance company makes money.
    This is true even if the insurance company only offers "archeological protection insurance".

  90. Who owns the finds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does the landowner/contractor get to sell the stuff that is dug up? At least attempt to offset the cost?

    I tried to RTFS, but the links loaded so many ads I almost threw up. (actually my browser basically hung, yes old slow computer)

  91. Bryan, TX by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Bryan is kind of an odd choice - not a city that most people would think of unless they live there. If by chance you DO live in Bryan, howdy neighbor.

  92. Screamapillar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See Reversal of Freedoms Act of 1994