I used to work for a small HealthPlan that was serving these poor chams at the state's expense.
This program was decimated a couple years ago when the rules were somewhat changed and their membership counts decreased 40-50%.
I can't give away inside knowledge of how much the state was paying the HP per capita, but it was significantly less than the commercial HPs were charging, so the company was barely surviving (I don't know if they are still there).
Also, Oregon's governer is a fuck: he has vetoed the highway speed increase two times!:-(
My heart and 300zx Turbo are crying;-)
There is an anecdote about Subj.
During the course of History, five Jews said the world what is the foundation of everything.
The first one said that everything is in the head. It was Moses.
Second one told that everything is in the heart. It was Jesus.
Third on said that everything is in the wallet (or stomach). It was Marx.
Fourth one said that everything is in sex. It was Freud.
And Einstein said that everything is relative;-).
I cite this anecdote just to point that your opinion is totally Marxist, and the History has proven it wrong.
You might build thousands of schools, but if the teachers are from Islamic Jihad, you're going to get fanatics at the graduation. Taliban is the byproduct of the schools built by Pakistanis in the camps of Afghan refugees.
There is no easy way (short of taking children from their parents and moving them out of the country for brainwashing with "American values") of transforming rugged fighters' children into socialites or law-obedient citizens like you and me.
Also read jordandeamattson's reply - I second every word of it. The only thing I want to add is that Israel SYMBOLIZES West's penetration into Islamic world. This is why they hate it. And removing Israel won't do any good because Islamists will just find another symbol/target.
I feel sorry for you - your government and media has fed you with SO MUCH BullMerde:-(
"Arrafat started the new war? Do you believe this, or are you just pulling it as a dirty rhetorical
ploy?
Tell me again, what led to the current crisis. Was it not Sharon walking in the mosquee square
(dunno about the english terminology for it), at a very inappropriate time? "
Yes, Arafat has started the new war.
Guess what, wars don't happen on the empty place. They need to be carefully planned and prepared.
1) For seven years Arafat owned the territories a lot of weapons and ammo was stockpiled there. The Oslo agreements permitted him to have 20,000 policemen with light weapons. Can you explain why they have about 150,000 strong militias with so much ammo that it's enough for a year of fighting?
2) Even rocks that Muslim "worshippers" were throwing at the Jews praying at the Western Wall were carefully stocked by the leaders of would be intifada.
3) Psychological moment. For seven years Arafat owned the territories his TV and radio were full of hatred and incitement (at the time when successive governments of Israel were talking about peace). He was preparing his people not to the peace, but to "war till the end" (Some Arab politicians talk abot 1967 lines, but the street and other polititians talk about "Palestine from Jordan river to the sea"). It was Arafat who prepared his people to "explode" at any moment. As soon as people became tired of his corrupt regime he started the war in order to fullen their rage and desperation not at the rightful target - himself - but at Israel.
4) Was it Sharon who released ALL Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists from Palestinian jail, so that they can murder Israeli civilians?
Conclusion: terror was a strategic decision of Arafat who was in the dead end after rejecting the most generous offer he had ever received. I've seen in the analitic news that Arabs started preparing to the war even before the Camp-David meeting.
Trying to blame Sharon's visit for the war is equal to believing that the WW2 started because Polish soldiers attacked German radiostation, like Nazi propaganda "explained" it.
"And why is Sharon prohibiting Peres from meeting Arrafat? Why is he afraid of diplomacy?"
He is not afraid of diplomacy. It is just that Sharon will not negotiate under fire (BTW, all the negotiations under fire that Barak tried of desperation lead to agreements that Arabs were not even thinking to follow). His position - let Arabs stop terrorism, and negotiations will follow. Or your media was not telling you about the cease-fire that was negotiated by CIA director Tennet in June that Arabs violated by continuing terrorism?
So, admit that Israel is a victim of French desire to get oil for cheap and have an arms market among Arabs.
No, I don't have anything to tell about France or French people.
The only thing is that European press where he gets his information is EXTREMELY anti-Israel. It is especially true in French-speaking countries (I read some of the France Press news agency's articles in English among other sources). Reasons?
1) There are a lot of Muslims in France - several millions;
2) France is desperately trying to displace ex-USSR as "The biggest friend of Arabs"; this is why they scream histerically about "Israeli aggression", even though it's clear that Arafat started the new war there. They hope to get to these markets by lobbying Muslim interests and taking their side in the Arab-Israeli conflict (hopefully, you don't forget who has built a nuclear reactor for Saddam in the beginning of eighties).
3) I don't think French in general are anti-Semitic, but France did not have a real denazification after the WW2. Even more, some famous French Nazi criminals were saved and harbored by the Catholic church.
And this is the same France that was in Vietnam, Algiers and so on.
A long time ago I've seen a thread here about spirituality in the geek community. Further conclusions assume that you believe that there is something else besides the meterial world we live in.
In spiritual world we know that there are immaterial creatures and energies that like us to experience pain, addictions and do what they expect of us. This is how the crowds "work", this is how rumors and bad news are spreading out and making an aggressive mob out of people who don't even know each other.
All the spiritual schools (Tao, Sufism, Kabbalah, Buddhism, and so on) teach you how to unwind the "hooks" these things use to get you, and teach you to be aware of your addictions and how to remove them and be immune to the "social programming".
I know that this way is not for everyone, but many people will find it interesting and useful for wrestling the control of your life from the media and society back into your own hands.
If you speak Russian or know someone who does, you can read this book:
http://www.deir.org/book/Kniga_1/Contents.htm
The methodics there gives you the first step of regaining your conscience and freedom.
"This is partisan nonsense that glosses over equivalent behavior on the Israeli side. Let's not
forget that Iraeli's side has vastly greater and more sympathetic coverage. "
BS again.
Israel is democratic country, and press is free. You can write about everything sans military secrets. Compare that to Arabs who censor everything.
Read this site (especially, how it started): http://www.honestreporting.com/
"In fact your, assumption that I support any of these imperialist actions is baseless. It is you who is making excuses for this behavior on behalf of Israel. "
It is you who attacks Israel without even trying to understand it a bit because your words about "understanding everyone" are just words. You prefer "trying to understand" Bin Laden.
"Sans foreign military aid on both sides, the Israelis would not have a chance agains the
Arabs. "
Keep dreaming, buddy. ALL wars were won by Israel not because of the military help from the US (USSR provided Arabs with much more help), but because of bravery and military prowess of Israelis.
"If it isn't for humantitarian purposes, I say cut off Egypt too. "
It is not for humanitarian purposes; it's the same military help as Israel is getting.
"Please explain to me how Israel is entitled to more aid. (Maybe you could brush up on geography
as well.) "
If you think that aid is provided by the territory size or the population numbers, you're just not that bright. I'll give you a couple of hints about Israel:
1) State-controlled media does not call US State Secretary a fool in Israel; it also doesn't make fun of the US Ambassador's religion;
2) The angry mobs don't go on rampage and pillage McDonalds' franchises as symbols of "American Imperializm" because they disagree with the American policy. No Anti-American histeria in Israel.
3) You might be familiar with the concept of loyalty. Israel stands by the US all the time (I can give you examples), and not just pays a lip service to it. Israel genuinely griefs about the barbarian act in NY, and not sends a half-hearted condolences while significant parts of its population cheer.
4) Israel is a true Western Democracy and not a puppet regime whose army "discourages" parts of the population from voting.
Need more?
"And with the benefit of hindsight, all that military intelligence proved to be pretty worthless."
Dirty lie. Newest Soviet military equipment that the US got helped US not to lose in the arms race.
BTW, do you know why I don't consider myself Leftist?
1) I'm not an idiot who believes that everyone thinks like me;
2) I'm not an idiot who believes that free speech and free beer is enough to satisfy anyone;
3) I believe in personal responsibility.
"Left alone to grab even more land? Left alone to bulldoze Palestinian settlements? As I said, not in any meaningful sense. Israel is the only part of the world where anyone even makes a feeble attempt to rationalize this kind of imperialism. "
Bullshit.
Majority of Israelis dream about leaving these territories. Everything they do is to uproot terrorists. BTW, read this:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/intimidation. ht ml
Also, you've forgotten about Chinese who say about "Tibet always being part of China" (but only China you think about is Chyna;-). You don't think about Northern Ireland that Brits can't leave even despite they don't need it. You don't think about "Great Albania", about genocides in Africa. You only think about tiny piece of land where always persecuted and threatened by enemies Jews try to make a living.
Who are you after that?
" I say cut of US military support to Israel, and lets see who is really weak. Seems like a great way to leave them alone! Since they are so righteous and powerful, I'm sure they can survive cut off from the US welfare roles."
Study history, buddy.
You'll notice that such a support started only after USSR opened unlimited credit to Arabs for weaponry and military training. US had pretty much nothing to do with Israel before; Israelis were buying arms from France.
BTW, you speak about welfare. Do you know how much of American welfare Egypt is getting? Not much less than Israel.
And unlike Egypt, Israel is paying America back. Do you know how much of the most advanced Soviet military technics was given to the US by Israel who was able to get it through bravery and military skills? Do you know how much money were Amerecans able to save on that?
Land where enough Jews were living even before the WW2.
Israelis ARE willing to share as long as they are left alone.
" I do question Israels legitimacy. Their has presence destablized an entire region and their
conflict is spreading rapidly. As far as I am concerned, no one's seperatist religious ambitions
are worth the price the world has paid to prop up Israel. "
You know, buddy, if Arabs can't resign themselves to Israel's existence and live peacefully with the Jews, they won't be able to live with any other culture, and they just don't deserve getting appeased.
And you're supposedly coming from the country that talks about diversity and understanding everybody... Conclusion: all your righteous words are just words.
Native Americans would like to share and live peacefully with Whites. It was Whites who wanted to have everything. They were stronger technologically and and took everything for themselves.
Jews would like to share and live peacefully with Arabs. It was Arabs who wanted the world without Jews. They thought they were stronger and tried to butcher Israelis many times, but lost.
Hey, man! Do you know what is your biggest problem? It is yuor self-righteousness that leads you to grand delusions and prevents you from seeing what is going on on this Earth.
"Read my comment in its entirety."
I've read it again. There will always be terrorism and violence _unless people change_.
Hatred is unconscious irrational thing that LOOKS FOR RATIONAL EXPLANATIONS to present itself.
It looks like I'll send you to another reading quest. Read as much as you can find about Ethology - the science of instincts - and you'll understand that we're not that far from monkeys. It tells that racism and national hatred are just an instinctive (read: unconscious) program gone awry.
All the other in that post is pure and undiluted leftist dogma.
"Without an enemy you can identify, declaring 'war' is just rhetoric. It is an attempt to pre-justify indiscriminate mayhem and destruction."
It is more than rhetoric. It means becoming aware of the seriousness of the problem and making steps towards resolving it.
Also, do you know the difference between berserk (sp?) and samurai? You can fight without fighting or being hateful or violent.
"I have lived in two different countries as well. How you could live outside the US and recoginze the cultural differences that exist and fail to understand the animosity towards America is quite puzzling. "
What countries, at what age, for how long?
I can explain the animosity:
1) "They are different" - CLOSED-MINDNESS (study ethology).
2) "They are big and powerful" - FEAR.
3) ENVY.
America, certainly, is not sinless, but most of the crap is in their own minds; it's almost always true for any hatred. Example: these 21% of Americans who want to "bomb something right now" just demonstrate their fears and denial.
"There is no deterent to madness. But there is to desperation and resentment, and we should be doing something about it. The only alternative is to ignore the causes and hunt down the perpetrators after they do their damage. "
This is one of your biggest assumptions that is just plain wrong. You can do NOTHING with their desperation and resentment because you can't give everyone everything they want. As soon as they get something they wanted they are going to demand even more. What you will achieve is just increase their appetites. Two examples:
1) Hitler and Czechs. Bastards Chamberlain and D'Aladie (sp?) thought that appeasing Hitler and giving him Czech areas of Sudet mountains will satisfy him and make him stop the expansion. You know the result:-(
2) Arafat. In 1993 he has got anything but his own state and the dynamics since then were giving him more and more land.
His actions - stealing money from his own people and building a terror infrastructure. He has given NOTHING in return! After he got the most generous offer possible he started the terror campain.
Your misconception (tipical American one) is that compromise is the attribute of the strong. Guess what - in Middle East as well as in the East it is considered an attribute of weak. If you don't show an image of force, you're screwed. This is why I think that peace between Israel and Arabs is possible only after a war where Israel beats the crap out of them (the way it happened in 1977 with Egypt that would not be possible without Israel's win of the 1973 war). While they think they can win a war, they won't go the peace route.
"As is evident in Israel, even the most ruthless efforts to exterminate our enemies will not eleimiate them all. "
Even the most ruthless? Are you out of your mind? "Most ruthless" is Pol Pot, Stalin or Hitler, all of which were able to exterminate any opposition (The only opposition to Hitler appeared towards the end of the War when Germany was losing).
Land that belonged to Ottoman Empire of Turks?
Land that was changing hands many times - through Romans and Crusaders? Land that could contain both states?
Now I understand. You question the legitimacy of Israel at all. So, be kind enough, please, to return California and Texas to Mexico; Florida to Spain and everything that is left to Native Americans.
Also, I've looked at your original post that started this thread.
And YES, Israeli actions has reduced the terrorists' ability to strike dramatically. They estimate that only a few percents of potential terrorists get to Israel proper. If it would not be for the Mossad, the death toll among Israels' peaceful popuation would become unbearable thus prompting a full-scale military intervention (like it happened in 1956).
I am not disputing the safety of Israelis abroad; it was me who told that Israeli delegations are now pretty safe there because of the hunt for terrorists that murdered their sportsmen.
I presume you to be a leftist based on your conclusion that "Everything is the fault of corporations and globalisation" ( http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21582&threshol d=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=2288272 ).
Speaking of the blood-lust and laws, you don't understand the difference between the mob and the war. Mob should be dealt with by police according to the law. When you have an act of war, you deal with it by different laws. You don't need a jury decision to shoot an enemy soldier, and terrorists ARE ENEMY SOLDIERS. Period. BTW, I wholehartedly approve the actions of the US that decided to find the offenders first, and act second. I don't belong to 20% of Americans who want to "bomb anything right now".
And your post shows that you don't even want to understand my arguments about different values for different cultures (and I know at least something here because I lived in two different countries during the course of my life).
You just continue talking about understanding their cause. I'm trying to tell that some people are going to become terrorists whatever the cause and reason are. It's like the criminals - extrapolating your thoughts will produce an obviously false conclusion that all criminals are impowerished and oppressed desperados. Sure, some of them are, but your position will not explain the crime among wealthy and middle-class (and even some of the lower than middle class people).
If you can't discourage would be murderers and rapists in the wealthy America and Europe, you won't be able to curb terrorism just by giving everybody money and some form of freedom (it might look like a paradox, but the amount of freedom Arabs with Israeli passports have is higher than in any Arab country).
No, it doesn't. It was not a public action intended for scaring Israel like the murder at the Olympics was.
As for your second writing, you've obviously not understood what I told you here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21582&cid=22 91 125
You think in your leftist naivette that everyone is like you and thinks about the life of a peaceful Philistine (I don't know if it's a right word). I am sure that people like Che Gevara, Carlos "The Jackal", Osama Bin-Laden and Arafat would become terrorists whatever the environment would surround them. There are these who act of desperation, but they are the ones who explode themselves, not the ones who give them explosives and direct them. These others are professional terrorists, and Israel is now trying to eliminate this kind of masterminds who make terror possible.
You don't need to go farther than your leftist collegues who can't protest peacefully at the globalist summits; they vandalize everything around and wound police just to prove their point. They cry about peace and law, but break the laws and shatter peace in the process.
I don't know if you like good science fiction, but if you do, try finding an old book called "Fury" by Henry Kuttner. Read it, and you'll understand that people like Sam (hero of the book) can't find themselves in regular life you're advocating.
It depends.
One of the hostages taken by Hesbollah was taken in Switzerland.
Countries that fight terrorism (Russia, Israel) should be able to do so without yelping of the leftist Human Rights groups that protect only the rights of terrorists now.
I meant a high-profile demonstrative murders of Israeli sportsmen or other delegates outside of Israel.
Whatever is going on there is different beast.
Israel is now trying to kill not these potential bombers (there are too many brainwashed fanatics), but the ones who plan their actions and supply them with explosives et al.
Hey, don't confuse hijacking planes for demands (money/release of imprisoned terrorists) that stopped 20+ years ago because of Israel's actions with what have happened here, in the US.
This is completely different terrorists with different goals and so on.
Didn't you know that after the creation of Israel not only about 600,000 Arabs ran away from what became the 1949 borders of Israel, but also about 600,000 Jews were necessary to leave everything behind and run from Arab countries to Israel?
Their property left was estimated at $30 BLN. So, this entire refugee problem was the result of Arab states not letting the Arab refugees out of the camps.
Unlike Arabs, Jewish refugees were able to live as a citizens of Israel with all rights according to this status.
BTW, Jews who decided not to leave Arab countries were persecuted and many of them were executed.
Your Allegations Are Just Stupid
on
More On Tragedy
·
· Score: 2
You think Israel will risk its only ally that is equal to its existance for simplifying its fight with terrorism?
Big NO. They are not THAT stupid. Also, European leftists will continue its policy of "Don't touch innocent Palestinians".
If you want to look at other big winners:
1) Russia. It does pretty much get a cart blanche for continuing eradicating the Chechen terrorists. Also, chances for the Bush's ABM system are getting much slimmer.
2) France.
French are rolling shit at Israel because they hope to displace Americans as the supplier of arms to Saudis and other less extremist Arab regimes.
Try to think how they will welcome the US retaliating against Muslim terrorist and contries that support it.
If their bodies will be recovered, they should be buried in a pig's skin that will automatically make them ineligible for Heaven. IIRC, Brits were using this method for discouraging potential Muslim terrorists.
Slashdot Mirror
Mine is off in Portland, OR
/.-tted :-(
Trying to get access through dialup to AT&T sites that give information to be changed fail; the sites seem to be
I used to work for a small HealthPlan that was serving these poor chams at the state's expense.
:-(
;-)
This program was decimated a couple years ago when the rules were somewhat changed and their membership counts decreased 40-50%.
I can't give away inside knowledge of how much the state was paying the HP per capita, but it was significantly less than the commercial HPs were charging, so the company was barely surviving (I don't know if they are still there).
Also, Oregon's governer is a fuck: he has vetoed the highway speed increase two times!
My heart and 300zx Turbo are crying
... layoffs are done by HR! :-(
Once upon a time DEC has cut Dave Cuttler (sp?) and his group.
Result: M$ has piched up the group that made them NT. They would have a very hard time getting it sooner without ex-DEC-ers' experience.
There is an anecdote about Subj.
;-).
During the course of History, five Jews said the world what is the foundation of everything.
The first one said that everything is in the head. It was Moses.
Second one told that everything is in the heart. It was Jesus.
Third on said that everything is in the wallet (or stomach). It was Marx.
Fourth one said that everything is in sex. It was Freud.
And Einstein said that everything is relative
I cite this anecdote just to point that your opinion is totally Marxist, and the History has proven it wrong.
You might build thousands of schools, but if the teachers are from Islamic Jihad, you're going to get fanatics at the graduation. Taliban is the byproduct of the schools built by Pakistanis in the camps of Afghan refugees.
There is no easy way (short of taking children from their parents and moving them out of the country for brainwashing with "American values") of transforming rugged fighters' children into socialites or law-obedient citizens like you and me.
Also read jordandeamattson's reply - I second every word of it. The only thing I want to add is that Israel SYMBOLIZES West's penetration into Islamic world. This is why they hate it. And removing Israel won't do any good because Islamists will just find another symbol/target.
I feel sorry for you - your government and media has fed you with SO MUCH BullMerde :-(
"Arrafat started the new war? Do you believe this, or are you just pulling it as a dirty rhetorical
ploy?
Tell me again, what led to the current crisis. Was it not Sharon walking in the mosquee square
(dunno about the english terminology for it), at a very inappropriate time? "
Yes, Arafat has started the new war.
Guess what, wars don't happen on the empty place. They need to be carefully planned and prepared.
1) For seven years Arafat owned the territories a lot of weapons and ammo was stockpiled there. The Oslo agreements permitted him to have 20,000 policemen with light weapons. Can you explain why they have about 150,000 strong militias with so much ammo that it's enough for a year of fighting?
2) Even rocks that Muslim "worshippers" were throwing at the Jews praying at the Western Wall were carefully stocked by the leaders of would be intifada.
3) Psychological moment. For seven years Arafat owned the territories his TV and radio were full of hatred and incitement (at the time when successive governments of Israel were talking about peace). He was preparing his people not to the peace, but to "war till the end" (Some Arab politicians talk abot 1967 lines, but the street and other polititians talk about "Palestine from Jordan river to the sea"). It was Arafat who prepared his people to "explode" at any moment. As soon as people became tired of his corrupt regime he started the war in order to fullen their rage and desperation not at the rightful target - himself - but at Israel.
4) Was it Sharon who released ALL Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists from Palestinian jail, so that they can murder Israeli civilians?
Conclusion: terror was a strategic decision of Arafat who was in the dead end after rejecting the most generous offer he had ever received. I've seen in the analitic news that Arabs started preparing to the war even before the Camp-David meeting.
Trying to blame Sharon's visit for the war is equal to believing that the WW2 started because Polish soldiers attacked German radiostation, like Nazi propaganda "explained" it.
"And why is Sharon prohibiting Peres from meeting Arrafat? Why is he afraid of diplomacy?"
He is not afraid of diplomacy. It is just that Sharon will not negotiate under fire (BTW, all the negotiations under fire that Barak tried of desperation lead to agreements that Arabs were not even thinking to follow). His position - let Arabs stop terrorism, and negotiations will follow. Or your media was not telling you about the cease-fire that was negotiated by CIA director Tennet in June that Arabs violated by continuing terrorism?
So, admit that Israel is a victim of French desire to get oil for cheap and have an arms market among Arabs.
No, I don't have anything to tell about France or French people.
The only thing is that European press where he gets his information is EXTREMELY anti-Israel. It is especially true in French-speaking countries (I read some of the France Press news agency's articles in English among other sources). Reasons?
1) There are a lot of Muslims in France - several millions;
2) France is desperately trying to displace ex-USSR as "The biggest friend of Arabs"; this is why they scream histerically about "Israeli aggression", even though it's clear that Arafat started the new war there. They hope to get to these markets by lobbying Muslim interests and taking their side in the Arab-Israeli conflict (hopefully, you don't forget who has built a nuclear reactor for Saddam in the beginning of eighties).
3) I don't think French in general are anti-Semitic, but France did not have a real denazification after the WW2. Even more, some famous French Nazi criminals were saved and harbored by the Catholic church.
And this is the same France that was in Vietnam, Algiers and so on.
A long time ago I've seen a thread here about spirituality in the geek community. Further conclusions assume that you believe that there is something else besides the meterial world we live in.
In spiritual world we know that there are immaterial creatures and energies that like us to experience pain, addictions and do what they expect of us. This is how the crowds "work", this is how rumors and bad news are spreading out and making an aggressive mob out of people who don't even know each other.
All the spiritual schools (Tao, Sufism, Kabbalah, Buddhism, and so on) teach you how to unwind the "hooks" these things use to get you, and teach you to be aware of your addictions and how to remove them and be immune to the "social programming".
I know that this way is not for everyone, but many people will find it interesting and useful for wrestling the control of your life from the media and society back into your own hands.
If you speak Russian or know someone who does, you can read this book:
http://www.deir.org/book/Kniga_1/Contents.htm
The methodics there gives you the first step of regaining your conscience and freedom.
It looks like talking to you means wasting my time.
;-) and farewell.
Everything I say - both facts and logic - can't penetrate your thick shield of bigotry.
So, I don't intend to listen to your insults anymore, especially since you're not capable to producing anything else.
Good night (or should I say Laila Tiaba?
"This is partisan nonsense that glosses over equivalent behavior on the Israeli side. Let's not
forget that Iraeli's side has vastly greater and more sympathetic coverage. "
BS again.
Israel is democratic country, and press is free. You can write about everything sans military secrets. Compare that to Arabs who censor everything.
Read this site (especially, how it started): http://www.honestreporting.com/
"In fact your, assumption that I support any of these imperialist actions is baseless. It is you who is making excuses for this behavior on behalf of Israel. "
It is you who attacks Israel without even trying to understand it a bit because your words about "understanding everyone" are just words. You prefer "trying to understand" Bin Laden.
"Sans foreign military aid on both sides, the Israelis would not have a chance agains the
Arabs. "
Keep dreaming, buddy. ALL wars were won by Israel not because of the military help from the US (USSR provided Arabs with much more help), but because of bravery and military prowess of Israelis.
"If it isn't for humantitarian purposes, I say cut off Egypt too. "
It is not for humanitarian purposes; it's the same military help as Israel is getting.
"Please explain to me how Israel is entitled to more aid. (Maybe you could brush up on geography
as well.) "
If you think that aid is provided by the territory size or the population numbers, you're just not that bright. I'll give you a couple of hints about Israel:
1) State-controlled media does not call US State Secretary a fool in Israel; it also doesn't make fun of the US Ambassador's religion;
2) The angry mobs don't go on rampage and pillage McDonalds' franchises as symbols of "American Imperializm" because they disagree with the American policy. No Anti-American histeria in Israel.
3) You might be familiar with the concept of loyalty. Israel stands by the US all the time (I can give you examples), and not just pays a lip service to it. Israel genuinely griefs about the barbarian act in NY, and not sends a half-hearted condolences while significant parts of its population cheer.
4) Israel is a true Western Democracy and not a puppet regime whose army "discourages" parts of the population from voting.
Need more?
"And with the benefit of hindsight, all that military intelligence proved to be pretty worthless."
Dirty lie. Newest Soviet military equipment that the US got helped US not to lose in the arms race.
BTW, do you know why I don't consider myself Leftist?
1) I'm not an idiot who believes that everyone thinks like me;
2) I'm not an idiot who believes that free speech and free beer is enough to satisfy anyone;
3) I believe in personal responsibility.
"Left alone to grab even more land? Left alone to bulldoze Palestinian settlements? As I said, not in any meaningful sense. Israel is the only part of the world where anyone even makes a feeble attempt to rationalize this kind of imperialism. "
. ht ml
;-). You don't think about Northern Ireland that Brits can't leave even despite they don't need it. You don't think about "Great Albania", about genocides in Africa. You only think about tiny piece of land where always persecuted and threatened by enemies Jews try to make a living.
Bullshit.
Majority of Israelis dream about leaving these territories. Everything they do is to uproot terrorists. BTW, read this:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/intimidation
Also, you've forgotten about Chinese who say about "Tibet always being part of China" (but only China you think about is Chyna
Who are you after that?
" I say cut of US military support to Israel, and lets see who is really weak. Seems like a great way to leave them alone! Since they are so righteous and powerful, I'm sure they can survive cut off from the US welfare roles."
Study history, buddy.
You'll notice that such a support started only after USSR opened unlimited credit to Arabs for weaponry and military training. US had pretty much nothing to do with Israel before; Israelis were buying arms from France.
BTW, you speak about welfare. Do you know how much of American welfare Egypt is getting? Not much less than Israel.
And unlike Egypt, Israel is paying America back. Do you know how much of the most advanced Soviet military technics was given to the US by Israel who was able to get it through bravery and military skills? Do you know how much money were Amerecans able to save on that?
Land where enough Jews were living even before the WW2.
... Conclusion: all your righteous words are just words.
;-)
Israelis ARE willing to share as long as they are left alone.
" I do question Israels legitimacy. Their has presence destablized an entire region and their
conflict is spreading rapidly. As far as I am concerned, no one's seperatist religious ambitions
are worth the price the world has paid to prop up Israel. "
You know, buddy, if Arabs can't resign themselves to Israel's existence and live peacefully with the Jews, they won't be able to live with any other culture, and they just don't deserve getting appeased.
And you're supposedly coming from the country that talks about diversity and understanding everybody
Native Americans would like to share and live peacefully with Whites. It was Whites who wanted to have everything. They were stronger technologically and and took everything for themselves.
Jews would like to share and live peacefully with Arabs. It was Arabs who wanted the world without Jews. They thought they were stronger and tried to butcher Israelis many times, but lost.
See similarities?
Hey, man! Do you know what is your biggest problem? It is yuor self-righteousness that leads you to grand delusions and prevents you from seeing what is going on on this Earth.
:-(
"Read my comment in its entirety."
I've read it again. There will always be terrorism and violence _unless people change_.
Hatred is unconscious irrational thing that LOOKS FOR RATIONAL EXPLANATIONS to present itself.
It looks like I'll send you to another reading quest. Read as much as you can find about Ethology - the science of instincts - and you'll understand that we're not that far from monkeys. It tells that racism and national hatred are just an instinctive (read: unconscious) program gone awry.
All the other in that post is pure and undiluted leftist dogma.
"Without an enemy you can identify, declaring 'war' is just rhetoric. It is an attempt to pre-justify indiscriminate mayhem and destruction."
It is more than rhetoric. It means becoming aware of the seriousness of the problem and making steps towards resolving it.
Also, do you know the difference between berserk (sp?) and samurai? You can fight without fighting or being hateful or violent.
"I have lived in two different countries as well. How you could live outside the US and recoginze the cultural differences that exist and fail to understand the animosity towards America is quite puzzling. "
What countries, at what age, for how long?
I can explain the animosity:
1) "They are different" - CLOSED-MINDNESS (study ethology).
2) "They are big and powerful" - FEAR.
3) ENVY.
America, certainly, is not sinless, but most of the crap is in their own minds; it's almost always true for any hatred. Example: these 21% of Americans who want to "bomb something right now" just demonstrate their fears and denial.
"There is no deterent to madness. But there is to desperation and resentment, and we should be doing something about it. The only alternative is to ignore the causes and hunt down the perpetrators after they do their damage. "
This is one of your biggest assumptions that is just plain wrong. You can do NOTHING with their desperation and resentment because you can't give everyone everything they want. As soon as they get something they wanted they are going to demand even more. What you will achieve is just increase their appetites. Two examples:
1) Hitler and Czechs. Bastards Chamberlain and D'Aladie (sp?) thought that appeasing Hitler and giving him Czech areas of Sudet mountains will satisfy him and make him stop the expansion. You know the result
2) Arafat. In 1993 he has got anything but his own state and the dynamics since then were giving him more and more land.
His actions - stealing money from his own people and building a terror infrastructure. He has given NOTHING in return! After he got the most generous offer possible he started the terror campain.
Your misconception (tipical American one) is that compromise is the attribute of the strong. Guess what - in Middle East as well as in the East it is considered an attribute of weak. If you don't show an image of force, you're screwed. This is why I think that peace between Israel and Arabs is possible only after a war where Israel beats the crap out of them (the way it happened in 1977 with Egypt that would not be possible without Israel's win of the 1973 war). While they think they can win a war, they won't go the peace route.
"As is evident in Israel, even the most ruthless efforts to exterminate our enemies will not eleimiate them all. "
Even the most ruthless? Are you out of your mind? "Most ruthless" is Pol Pot, Stalin or Hitler, all of which were able to exterminate any opposition (The only opposition to Hitler appeared towards the end of the War when Germany was losing).
"From the land they took from Arabs. "
Land that belonged to Ottoman Empire of Turks?
Land that was changing hands many times - through Romans and Crusaders? Land that could contain both states?
Now I understand. You question the legitimacy of Israel at all. So, be kind enough, please, to return California and Texas to Mexico; Florida to Spain and everything that is left to Native Americans.
Address the root of the problem?
:-(
...
You mean, disappear from the Earth?
Arabs won't stop unless Jews disappear
Also, I've looked at your original post that started this thread.
And YES, Israeli actions has reduced the terrorists' ability to strike dramatically. They estimate that only a few percents of potential terrorists get to Israel proper. If it would not be for the Mossad, the death toll among Israels' peaceful popuation would become unbearable thus prompting a full-scale military intervention (like it happened in 1956).
I am not disputing the safety of Israelis abroad; it was me who told that Israeli delegations are now pretty safe there because of the hunt for terrorists that murdered their sportsmen.
l d=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=2288272 ).
I presume you to be a leftist based on your conclusion that "Everything is the fault of corporations and globalisation" ( http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21582&thresho
Speaking of the blood-lust and laws, you don't understand the difference between the mob and the war. Mob should be dealt with by police according to the law. When you have an act of war, you deal with it by different laws. You don't need a jury decision to shoot an enemy soldier, and terrorists ARE ENEMY SOLDIERS. Period. BTW, I wholehartedly approve the actions of the US that decided to find the offenders first, and act second. I don't belong to 20% of Americans who want to "bomb anything right now".
And your post shows that you don't even want to understand my arguments about different values for different cultures (and I know at least something here because I lived in two different countries during the course of my life).
You just continue talking about understanding their cause. I'm trying to tell that some people are going to become terrorists whatever the cause and reason are. It's like the criminals - extrapolating your thoughts will produce an obviously false conclusion that all criminals are impowerished and oppressed desperados. Sure, some of them are, but your position will not explain the crime among wealthy and middle-class (and even some of the lower than middle class people).
If you can't discourage would be murderers and rapists in the wealthy America and Europe, you won't be able to curb terrorism just by giving everybody money and some form of freedom (it might look like a paradox, but the amount of freedom Arabs with Israeli passports have is higher than in any Arab country).
No, it doesn't. It was not a public action intended for scaring Israel like the murder at the Olympics was.
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As for your second writing, you've obviously not understood what I told you here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21582&cid=2
You think in your leftist naivette that everyone is like you and thinks about the life of a peaceful Philistine (I don't know if it's a right word). I am sure that people like Che Gevara, Carlos "The Jackal", Osama Bin-Laden and Arafat would become terrorists whatever the environment would surround them. There are these who act of desperation, but they are the ones who explode themselves, not the ones who give them explosives and direct them. These others are professional terrorists, and Israel is now trying to eliminate this kind of masterminds who make terror possible.
You don't need to go farther than your leftist collegues who can't protest peacefully at the globalist summits; they vandalize everything around and wound police just to prove their point. They cry about peace and law, but break the laws and shatter peace in the process.
I don't know if you like good science fiction, but if you do, try finding an old book called "Fury" by Henry Kuttner. Read it, and you'll understand that people like Sam (hero of the book) can't find themselves in regular life you're advocating.
It depends.
One of the hostages taken by Hesbollah was taken in Switzerland.
Countries that fight terrorism (Russia, Israel) should be able to do so without yelping of the leftist Human Rights groups that protect only the rights of terrorists now.
This is not a joke, just read the context.
I meant a high-profile demonstrative murders of Israeli sportsmen or other delegates outside of Israel.
Whatever is going on there is different beast.
Israel is now trying to kill not these potential bombers (there are too many brainwashed fanatics), but the ones who plan their actions and supply them with explosives et al.
Hey, don't confuse hijacking planes for demands (money/release of imprisoned terrorists) that stopped 20+ years ago because of Israel's actions with what have happened here, in the US.
This is completely different terrorists with different goals and so on.
Didn't you know that after the creation of Israel not only about 600,000 Arabs ran away from what became the 1949 borders of Israel, but also about 600,000 Jews were necessary to leave everything behind and run from Arab countries to Israel?
Their property left was estimated at $30 BLN. So, this entire refugee problem was the result of Arab states not letting the Arab refugees out of the camps.
Unlike Arabs, Jewish refugees were able to live as a citizens of Israel with all rights according to this status.
BTW, Jews who decided not to leave Arab countries were persecuted and many of them were executed.
You think Israel will risk its only ally that is equal to its existance for simplifying its fight with terrorism?
Big NO. They are not THAT stupid. Also, European leftists will continue its policy of "Don't touch innocent Palestinians".
If you want to look at other big winners:
1) Russia. It does pretty much get a cart blanche for continuing eradicating the Chechen terrorists. Also, chances for the Bush's ABM system are getting much slimmer.
2) France.
French are rolling shit at Israel because they hope to displace Americans as the supplier of arms to Saudis and other less extremist Arab regimes.
Try to think how they will welcome the US retaliating against Muslim terrorist and contries that support it.
If their bodies will be recovered, they should be buried in a pig's skin that will automatically make them ineligible for Heaven. IIRC, Brits were using this method for discouraging potential Muslim terrorists.
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