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More On Tragedy
ELBnet writes It would be a godsend if the various survivor registries would pool their data, or if someone sets up a google-like search engine to reach all of them at once - and that is a great idea. I set up the search engine at WWW.ELBnet.com/wtc but need URLs to populate it. Please e-mail me any suggested URLS and I'll add them.
Also please don't /. the site... let the people who need it get to it. Spread the word."
Radio Free Wazee writes "Radio Free Wazee has suspended its normal programming in order to provide a relay for National Public Radio. Most of the sites are slammed -- we've got room for about 320 listeners. You'll need an MP3 player (WinAMP, etc.) -- the stream is at http://live.str3am.com:2310/listen.pls Our web site is http://www.ideashot.com/wazee.org Howard @ radio free waee"
GatorMan writes "The Red Cross and Amazon.com have setup a donations page for disaster relief to aide in the recovery of our people. I've seen it jump $100,000 in an hour (thanks to my $10 I'm sure) with over 25,000 donations so far, very promising. No where else on Earth could you find support like this."
winksmith writes "as many of us look on the recent crashes in horror, we will also be pushed towards more tech solutions to some of the scenarios witnessed. i believe experts agree that the buildings may have stood up to forces of the crash had it not been for the very hot fuel burning w/i the building. the building themselves were designed to take aircraft impacts (albeit circa 1960 aircraft). this disaster may spark re-interest in fuel additives for jet fuel that would immediately put out fires upon impact.
the faa and nasa ran some very extensive tests including the purposeful crashing of a large boeing jet (B720) in december of 1984. the tests were not encouraging. details are available. figure 1-1 shows the jet crashing.
no one can second guess what would have happened, but perhaps continued research into this area might have played a role in saving a few more lives. and still may in the future."
Wiggins writes ""The Internet Fraud Complaint Center recently received several complaints that someone is using the letters, "FBI" or "fbi.gov" in an e-mail address in order to make it seem that the message is coming from an FBI employee. In several cases, the message said, "Your application is approved. Please fill out this form to confirm your identity" and solicited the person's name, address, credit card number and expiration date." More on the http://www.ifccfbi.gov/. I am sure /. users know better, but the general populace doesn't (always)."
Today, having calmed down a little, I have been thinking about feasible ways to prevent such acts of terrorism.
Experts seem to agree that security measures can never completely prevent a determined, well organized attempt involving suicide killers. Never being fully secure, maybe we could still make pulling off something like this hard enough so it won't happen again. Please share your ideas.
One thing I read on /. was "physically separate the pilots from the
passenger cabin". I think that would make it a lot harder. It could be
improved by adding security personnel in plain clothes (preferably
Constable Angua von Überwald ;o) israeli-style.
This act was obviously planned by a close and disciplined group. Such groups need money to operate. It has been suggested that Osama Bin Laden be involved in this. Regardless, he is definitely actively supporting terrorism, which is what we are trying to make more difficult.
IIRC, Bin Laden is a sort of rich businessman from Saudi-Arabia. Probably he still owns some company (or companies), drawing his income from it (or them). The huge, illegal, (nonexistant) cartels of (nonexistant) multinational corporations (not) governing virtually all international trade all (don't) have well established procedures (not) to crush possible competitors. Considering the degree of interdependency in our economy and the fact that the WTC housed some quite influential offices, Bin Ladens commercial efforts might suddenly prove unfit for competition on global markets, as did many others, surprising unsuspecting watchers.
Apparently, he gets lots of cash from fund-raising organizations operating in rich (read: G7) countries. Could these be found out, their efforts proved illegal, their money confiscated?
These methods could be used against multiple targets. They seem to involve less martyr potential than nukes. Any other suggestions?
Kiwaiti
Member of the Legion Of Microsoft Haters
NATO showing their backing and various european and asian governments showing support, this is not a big suprise. It should be expected, the World Trade Center in NY was home to offices of many international finance corporations. There is not a much better way to hurt the world economy that swiftly.
Moderating to further my personal world domination agenda... and to get chicks.
It's worth mentioning that Amazon isn't charging their usual cut for the service, all money is going to Red Cross. And (this is a bit odd) it's refundable for 30 days.
I'm not kidding. Go to goatse.cx, and instead of the horrible sight you think you'll see, you'll find something different.
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
This may not be exactly on topic with the story above but relevent.
I've been watching Amazon.com's RedCross donation page today. It was mentioned here earlier. It has just passed $1 million collected with over 36,000 people contributing. Truely amazing.
I hope everyone will consider donating at least a little bit to help the victims.
Jonathan
Which network centers are we talking abotu that wre going to run out of deisel? TV/Radio? Are they without power right now? That post wasn't terribly clear.
Ok, perhaps this is flamebait, but I'm asking, because I think it has some relevance.
I read on the 'net that when "The WB" covered Bush's speech yesterday, there was a mic on that shouldn't have been. They claimed that they heard someone feeding lines to Bush during the first part of the speech - i.e. reading lines to Bush, Bush then repeating what he heard.
Anyone else see this? Or is it political FUD? It would explain his strangely halting delivery.
Over 36,000 people have contributed over $1,000,000 today. Wow - amazing. Get there and give money if you haven't!
_sig_ is away
Anyone know what went wrong here? They've got fat pipes and lots of fast machines, and Berkeley in general is fully reachable.
What is article five, or where could I find
full documentation on it?
Guttermouth is a really good band.
Just wanted to clarify that.
---
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
I would like to thank all of you who have contributed with your comments here on slashdot in regards to this case in the last two days. You have been an invaluble source for extensive information far beyond what any comercial news-source could ever be. You have given a human perspective to the unimaginable.
Again, thank you. And God bless us all.
Not only did the terrorists bombing piss us off really bad (a it should), so we're already more than likely to go bomb anything remotely related to the terrorists (well, ur state was adjacent to theirs, but now we also got NATO wanting to get into the action. So barring UN intervention of some kind (I doubt it, although I don't know if we'd listen to them anyway), we're going to find a terrorist to blame and bomb the hell out of him and all his associates.
Yeah, we may not find the real terrorist, but we'll make sure we can find someone else to blame. The government has that legitimacy thing and competence thing to maintain.
What, the government would never do that? Hey, maybe they're all honest johns in D.C., but if anyone has ever read Fahrenheit 451, you know that the public doesn't want the government to catch THE terrorist, they want them to catch someone that the government say is the terrorist.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Maybe I missed it, but has there been a confirmation about a 5th plane enroute to Colarado? This "mutual defense clause" does that mean that it's possible that Norad has been damaged and the U.S. is blind in the air?
I'm watchin CNN now and there's a reported talking about a single unidentified plane flying over NY and to me it looks like one of the new unmanned spy plane's.
This is time for the nation to unite, donate to the red cross trough amazon, and give blood...
Douglas Calvert
So twenty odd thousand people are killed, and your first thought is, "hey, lets see what goat.secx has to say about this"
Or maybe you just have it set as your homepage...
with the enourmous amount of hackers and computer specialists in the slashdot community, it seems that this community could be used to identify the responsible parties, and aid the authorities. I am not asking for vigilante action, but maybe some targeted information gathering. I'm thinking is terms of bots to collect information and a central database to gather and mine data. after important data has been verified (prevent passing on false rumors) then passing the results to the authorities. We've got all this computing power. It's time to use it for something more important than Quake.
It's a curious phenomenon, suicidal Arabs kamikazi into 2 buildings in NY, and in the end who gets the blame? The Jews. But these stupid people don't realize that the Arabs hate Israel because of the West, not the other way around. Their enemy is the West, symbolized by the USA and its ally Israel in the Middle East.
I'd just like to say that I've used slashdot a bit over the past two days and I've been impressed.
Of course there has been wild speculation that was inaccurate - but there was also this everywhere.
The accounts of survivors here and some of the links provided have been really good.
What does everyone else thing of slashdot's coverage ?
I find it interesting that this past Friday, (September 7th) the U.S. Department of State issued the following "Worldwide Caution" travel bulletin for the benefit of US travelers:
"Over the last several months, the U.S. Government has learned that U.S. citizens and interests abroad may be at increased risk of a terrorist action from extremist groups. In addition, we have received unconfirmed information that terrorist actions may be taken against U.S. military facilities and/or establishments frequented by U.S. military personnel in Korea and Japan. We are also concerned about information we received in May 2001 that American citizens may be the target of a terrorist threat from extremist groups with links to Usama Bin Ladin's Al-Qaida organization. In the past, such individuals have not distinguished between official and civilian targets. As always, we take this information seriously. U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of alert."
[From: http://travel.state.gov/wwc1.html]
The U.S. Department of State apparently knew that something was up, just not exactly what.
This ocurred to me last night.
Every commercial airline pilot i have ever met was an ex air-force pilot. (In the USe abotu the only way to learn to fly jhets is to join the US Airforce.)
Given that, I would think they have training on the proper handling of a side arm. Maybe its time to arm them all.
Thanks to modern technology, if we can recover DNA samples, we can clone them and put their clones on trial!
I'm glad to hear that airport security for passenger flights will be increased. I haven't seen mention, though, of non-passenger flights. There are other planes in the air, such as Fedex and UPS. Surely these planes make cross-continental flights and carry alot of fuel, making them dangerous weapons should terrorists be at the controls. Has anyone seen this point raised yet?
This article links the CIA with Bin Laden... Scary? I saw Orrin mouthing off yesterday as well.
This link was discovered via Slashdot, via Michael Moore's page.
Winton
The only effective weapon against terrorism is to do absolutely nothing.
...
Make any change at all in response, and you are instantly losing. Pandering to the desired effect, which is 'change'.
Say what you will about the loss of life, and the human tragedy of it, but the fact remains: humans die, whether at the hands of other humans, or by their own doing.
Yes, it's horrific the way things went down in New York yesterday. Terrible, and we all suffered through it (thanks to live action television) with those souls in the street and in the buildings and planes.
Americans fear death. Everything they do - their entire culture - is designed to prolong the inevitable.
It is this nations biggest weakness.
Responding to this form of terrorism with anything less than an utterly peaceful view is to let the terrorists win.
Killing terrorists in retaliation won't work - they've already demonstrated they're not afraid of death - something that most Americans can not truly admit.
Face it. In this particular case, America is not the superpower, since those who do not fear death have the mightiest weapon of all.
However, we should of course expect a typically American reaction. Bombing of specific targets. Categorically standard propagation of information by American news/propaganda corporations. Political jousting and hustling. Conspiracy, subterfuge, irresolution.
Made for TV movies will be on the airwaves by June
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I've been recording everything on TV for two days now. My GF taped some 90210 on accident, but I taped over that.
I would like to have quality video to put on VCD, so if anyone can point me to somewhere that I can download video, that would be great. Streaming video is nice, but I own a TV and get cable - we don't need that.
There is a mirror of some video at my public FTP site: ftp://ftp.one.net/pub/users/joe/
Anything that is pointed out to me will be uploaded to that site.
This is something that I believe shouldn't be forgotten - let's keep these records.
Get your Unix fortune now!
The images in all our minds from Tuesday are powerful. The images in our PVRs are 'real'. I'm scared that our memories of the devastation, of our Unity, and of our humanity will be replaced with 5 second news-bytes and cut-shots. The streams in your PVR's may well never be seen again if they are erased, because the media will sanatize and shorten the vids to fit between commercials forever-more.
I'm asking for discussion, here on /., about preserving these feeds, about it's copyright implications, and about the greater good of preserving these memories forever.
Before I part with'em: two pennies weigh ~4.996+/-0.014g, have a zinc core, and the face of Lincoln. You can keep 'em.
On the radio the FBI said the terrorists who were pilots, several of the people in the groups, were trained at Huffman Aviation in Daytona Beach, FL. It sounded like the training had been some time ago and thats why they believe they had been planning this for quite some time.
http://www.huffmanaviation.com
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
I've been hearing about the proposal to beef up security for domestic flights in the USA: bravo!
I have flown many international flights, but only 3 or 4 times within the USA, and quite frankly security always seemed a little lax, even compared to Canada. This is not to say that airport officals are directly to blame for this tragedy, but one can also look at it pragmatically: there are HUGE numbers of people flying within the USA at all times, and regular delays only seem to piss people off. What will happen now if the security becomes much stricter? I'm afraid we'll all have to deal with it when the time comes, but it's not going to be a pretty sight trying to process that many people.
In more positive news, many hundreds of Torontonians have turned out to donate blood! (OK, me included) Please disregard the troll who has been posting that the Red Cross has lots of blood: it's been a known fact for the past year that supplies have been *very* low both here and in the US. Go for it if you can! Even if your blood is not used for this emergency. blood is ALWAYS in demand, and will NOT get thrown out like the troll has implied. It all gets stored and sorted, never has there been a surplus!
Thanks.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/1m/www.wash ingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19050-2001Sep12.ht ml
is up your ass.
To do nothing will embolden more attackers.
I'm re-posting this because I think it has some important points.
The following article was written by Rick Giombetti, from Seattle, WA. Posted with the author's permission.
Why The Surprise?:
"I Want To Be A Pilot So That One Day I Can Bomb Americans!"
Who saw it coming?
There is nothing more ridiculous than listening to people express "shock" and "surprise" at the multiple airplane hijackings and terror attacks on September 11. I'm surprised an attack against the U.S. of this magnitude hasn't happened sooner. One nation can only treat the world as a slave plantation and its peoples as slaves for so long, before the slaves finally rise up. There isn't a region of the world the U.S. hasn't pillaged and raped to some degree over the past 150 years. In a world with 6 billion people, there are always going to be a few who resort to individual and group terrorism to protest the policies of a global empire like the U.S.
Could there have been a better selection of targets to protest U.S. financial hegemony and military violence? First, it was Scam Central: The two 110-story World Trade Center towers, the most prominent symbols of U.S. multinational corporate capitalism. Then it was Violence Central: The Pentagon, home of the badly misnamed Department of "Defense." These attacks are being called "cowardly" by U.S. politicians and media pundits. Cowardly? Compared to the U.S. pilots who dropped bombs from over 15,000 ft. above Serbia for 78 days in 1999, safely out of the range of Serb gunners on the ground and against a nation with no air force to counter the U.S.? I don't think so.
"What balls," is all I have to say. These terror attackers risked being caught and possibly beaten and tortured while in custody. They sacrificed themselves in what may have been the boldest terror attacks in history. And who has ever turned airplanes into bombs for taking out office towers and government buildings? Yeah, it was a group of mean fuckers who did what they did on September 11, but they sure as hell weren't cowards.
Don't get me wrong. I despise individual and group terrorism not only because it causes loss of life. It also represents the ultimate rejection of mass struggle. Now the job of well-meaning U.S. activists just got a whole hell of a lot harder. We can expect some more Bill of Rights shredding legislation and more violent crackdowns on protest because of the terror attacks. We can also expect people to not want to hear peace activist's demands for an end to the destructive and violent policies of the U.S. all over the world. "Show some respect for the victims and victim's families," some people will tell us. If now isn't the time to demand an end to U.S.-backed violence around the world, then when will it be a good time to do so? With the U.S. government preparing(and most likely already carrying out) a fresh round of bombings around the world in retaliation for the terror attacks, now isn't the time to be quiet about U.S. violence against defenseless people. The eleven year U.S.-led war of bombs from the air and draconian sanctions via the U.N. against the people or Iraq is just one example of the kinds of policies we shouldn't back down from denouncing.
When I was still living Fort Collins, Colorado two years ago I attended a talk by the wonderful peace activist Kathy Kelly of Voices In The Wilderness(VITW). VITW has been campaigning against the bombing and U.S. imposed sanctions regime against the people of Iraq for about a decade now. VITW has courageously and openly defied U.S. government enforcement of the unjust U.N. sanctions by smuggling badly needed humanitarian aid into Iraq over the past decade. Kelly offered the small audience who came to see her speak that October evening a chilling anecdote about an Iraqi boy she met while making one of her many humanitarian tours of Iraq. The single digit aged boy described to a crowd at a gathering what he wanted to be when he grew up. He said, "I want to be a pilot so that one day I can bomb Americans!"
That anecdote has haunted me ever since and I knew it was only a matter of time before that angry Iraqi boy's apocalyptic wish would come true. It's a chilling sentiment but it's completely understandable. The only world that poor Iraqi boy and countless other children his age have ever known, if said boy is even alive today, is one of U.S. bombings and sanction's imposed misery. Yet this pre-adolescent boy is(was?) sophisticated enough to figure out that it's the U.S. government that is ordering the bombings and imposing the devastating sanctions against his country, not Saddam Husein. Perhaps it's time for the majority of the U.S. adult population to match this Iraqi boy's sophistication and start demanding that their government end the bombings and the sanctions regime.
The combination of bombings and sanctions has led to a death toll in Iraq over the past decade that easily tops 1 million. I haven't seen much, if any, concern in the mass media about this horrible U.S. caused suffering in Iraq. This is the same mass media that treated the intense six week bombing campaign against Iraq at the beginning of 1991 like it was a video game where no Iraqis were being injured or killed(talk about disrespecting the victims of massive military violence!). The bombings have never stopped. Yet about the only time the media covers new bombings is when the president is looking for a boost in his poll numbers and holds a press conference after the fresh round of bombing begins.
The sanctions aren't even a topic of debate in the mass media. Try to find some commentary anywhere about Thomas Nagy's September Progressive article, which demonstrates how the U.S. government intentionally used the U.N. sanctions against Iraqi to degrade the country's water supply. Meanwhile, peace activists like Kathy Kelly are hardly mainstays in the media pundit circus. However, every time a U.S. president orders bombings of countries like Iraq or Serbia the mass media gives plenty of airtime to retired military officers for the purpose of fanning the flames of war.
Now peace activists are going to be asked to shut their mouths about U.S. violence around the world out of respect for the thousands of victims of the September 11 terror attacks. What a bunch of bullshit. I say, honor the memory of the victims of September 11: Denounce and oppose U.S. violence everywhere.
#---------------
#The following comment in NO WAY condones terrorism
#---------------
It is a shame that it has taken a tragedy like this to compel us to whip our heads around and notice what is happening. *Complete freedom* is not an easy thing to master; America is advanced citizenship. You really have to want it. I, personally, feel like I am not as patriotic or stalwart as I can be.
Unfortunately for us, those who have no regard for human life will always exist. A lack of understanding abounds in the world today, with people who feel like those who are different are bad, and anyone whose ideas and values don't agree with their own need to be exterminated.
One of the only differences between the people who organized this act of terror and the next person you meet isn't the willingness to give up one's life for a certain cause, but the complete disregard for the life of others. I feel strongly about certain values; it is safe to say that I would die for them. But I would never put the lives of others in danger just because of something that I believe in.
More info on what article V is:a tionalsecurity/art5.pdf
http://www.acus.org/Publications/bulletins/intern
Or copy and paste: http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
I have set up a rather extensive set of image and video mirrors.
http://www.watership.org/media/
http://wtc.frack.org/
Please mirror these.
I have made tar balls of the images and the movies so everyone will be able to set up their own mirror.
http://watership.org/media/images.tar.gz -(26985k)
http://watership.org/media/movies.tar.gz -(200189k)
i am not sure on the copyright issues. But anyone is welcome to dload and set up content mirrors.
Producing satire is kind of hopeless because of the literacy rate of the American public. - Frank Zappa
... as it simultaneously creates them.
According to a press conference on CNN (dont remember which one) no one has been *arrested* yet in conjunction w/the attacks.
Yes we all know that they took into custody some people that they believe are linked to Ladin and may have had something to do w/the attacks but they know apparently little at this point.
I heard rumors that they are checking into an e-mail account that was apparently used to communicate the messages about the attack.
On a side note -- I live in an apartment complex of several buildings. My building and the one closest to me have many flags hanging from the balconies. I urge everyone to not only donate their blood (there was a 2.5 hour wait this morning in Toledo, OH) but to display an American flag for the lives lost in this tragic event.
God Bless America.
This site is a service for everyone who may have been near the terrorist attacks on September 11 and their family members and friends. Our thoughts and emotions are with you all, and we only hope that this can provide some measure of help in these difficult times. Thank you for your many messages of support.
Sites with a similar purpose are also being run by Prodigy, Ken Shan, Disaster Message Service, Atlantic Highlands, NJ, Rian Schmidt, and ny.com. You may want to check them as well.
If you know someone who is safe, please submit a report on them.
If you are looking for someone, please use the search page.
Please submit reports on anyone you have spoken to or heard from who may have been near the incidents. There may be many concerned relatives and friends looking for them.
I want to report that someone is safe.
I want to find out if someone is safe.
We do not have any official sources of our own and cannot guarantee the accuracy of any of this information. We rely only on reports collected from you, our users, so please be honest and accurate.
This site is hosted on the Millennium Cluster at the University of California, Berkeley.
For questions about this site, contact Ka-Ping Yee at ping@lfw.org.
Many news sources are now reporting that Air Force One was considered directly under threat during the awful events of yesterday. What does this mean? It was in Florida at the time. Were their any attempts made? Any extra planes involved? Theories would be welcome of course.
Just like during the Gulf War, this incident is going to test how well the world will react. The result will either be another strong coalition with the majority of the world nations united against those few exterminates or (God forbid) WWIII.
Karma stuck at 50? Add 2-5 inches.. err.. 2-5x Karmas Count to your pen1es.. err.. Karma all naturally and private
You don't kill terrorists to punish them, you kill them to get rid of them! The more terrorists you kill, the less terrorism there will be. Duh!
Of course, the hard part is killing only the terrorists and sparing the innocent victims of Mid-East strife.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
A friend sent this to me and i found it to be an interesting different perspective.
America: The Good Neighbor
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
News channels have said they will not show a lot of video or photos they have because it may not be 'suitable.' This is a tragedy --- censoring shouldnt have a place here. Are these censored photos or video up at a site?
The Original Broadcast real audio format. Hope no linux users get to irritated.
The Americans
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -! not once, but several times and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything and never even get a thank you for the things we do.
I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read this.
Str8Dog
using System.Darkside; public
If we do nothing, they'll keep doing this until they've killed all the infidels. The best response is to kill all of them in self-defense. The only real question is how to define "them".
Are there any terrorist websites that our fellow Arabic speaking /.ers can translate? I am interested in finding out if there are other news groups / sites that are discussing the aftermath or even claining responsibility.
I had heard there was a recent takeover by FBI of a website that harbored Middle Eastern News.
Also, through a close source, a friend whom flies on all bombing missions when her base command is called, left a message with her parents last night stating that "I am leaving for 2-3 days. I cannot tell you where I am going, but once you hear the news you'll know. "
Sounds like we are making a run somewhere.
What are the chances some sensitive information was unknowingly disgorged from said terrorists' computers in the days and weeks before this incident?
i.e. is there some bit of crucial information sitting in some email trash folder
I send you this file in order to have your advice
-dameron
This battle is already lost. All we can do now is pay respects to the dead and work towards making this a world where this kind of thing is no longer imaginable.
The arrogance with which we rain destruction down on arbitrary targets whenever we are stuck is an insult to the laws and due process that this country is founded on.
The only way to win this 'war' is show the world that our humanity and civility can not be shaken.
Comment: "Personally, I don't want to hurt Bin Laden or whoever is behind these attacks. I simply want them to STOP. If force is required to achieve this, then I will accept that. But I refuse to act out of anger or the desire for my enemies to suffer."
Response: "If they are dead, they will stop."
Kill some terrorists and watch 10 take their place. Change the damn favored "godly" state of motherf*ng israel and watch what happens. American weapons kill islamic people every day be it bombs in iraq, cruise missiles in sudan, or m-16's in the west bank.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
In my haste I forgot to reference the origal thread Sorry about that.
Also this is of interest:
Origins: On June 5 1973, Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair decided he'd had enough of the stream of criticism and negative press recently directed at the United States of America by foreign journalists (primarily over America's long military involvement in Vietnam, which had ended with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords six months earlier). When he arrived at radio station CFRB in Toronto that morning, he spent twenty minutes dashing off a two-page editorial defending the USA against its carping critics which he then delivered in a defiant, indignant tone during his "Let's Be Personal" spot at 11:45 AM that day.
The unusualness of any foreign correspondent -- even one from a country with such close ties to the USA as Canada -- delivering such a caustic commentary about those who would dare to criticize the USA is best demonstrated by the fact that even thirty years later, many Americans doubt that this piece (which has been circulating on the Internet in the slightly-altered form quoted above as something "recently" printed in a Toronto newspaper) is real. It is real, and it received a great deal of attention in its day. After Sinclair's editorial was rebroadcast by a few American radio stations, it spread like wildfire all over the country. It was played again and again (often superimposed over a piece of inspirational music such as "Battle Hymn of the Republic" or "Bridge Over Troubled Waters"), read into the Congress Record multiple times, and finally released on a record (titled "The Americans"), with all royalties donated to the American Red Cross. (A Detroit radio broadcaster named Byron MacGregor recorded and released an unauthorized version of the piece that hit the record stores before Sinclair's official version; an infringement suit was avoided when MacGregor agreed to donate his profits to the Red Cross as well).
Sinclair passed away in 1984, but he will long be remembered on both sides of the U.S.-Canadian border -- both for his contributions to journalism, and for his loudly proclaiming what no one else at the time would stand up and say.
Str8Dog
using System.Darkside; public
Here are some links for the demonstration mentioned above. They are on the Dryden Flight Research center site which has an archive of aviation related images, videos, and more. An incredible site. The videos are particularly unsettling
videos
photos
Unity folks, unity is important
First of all, one of the bedrock principles of the US is the protection of freedom of speech... which kind of goes along with the freedom of religion. Oh yeah, and implicitely the freedom to think whatever the hell you want. There are plenty of white supremicists who belive crazy stuff with no backing, but I would rather them have their right to believe what they like than to supress that right. Maybe my ideas would get the short end of the stick one day.
Hey, maybe we should ban all atheism, since it is such a hopeless belief system, with no afterlife or reward system. Maybe that's the cause of a lot of depression.
Almost all religions are against killing and deaths of innocent individuals. BUT, the people who run the religions can be corrupted and use religion for their own purposes (i.e. the Crusades).
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Is available without registration at: The Wall Street Journal>
It's real simple. We've known of terrorist orginazations for decades but have done very little to combat it.
All civilized nations need to delcare war on terrorism.
Make it real simple:
If you're a terrorist organzation you are at war with us and will be treated as such(ie killed).
If you are a country that habors or funds terrorists you will be treated no differently than the terrorists.
There needs to be a message sent that terrorism in any form will no longer be tolerated and treaties should be put into place so that if it rears its ugly head again in the future it'll be eliminated with the same vengence we used on those that commited these acts.
I just heard on AP radio that all of the major ISPs are being served warrants for any log files looking for a particular email address. Earthlink exec was quoted as saying it was not an Earthlink address, but they wanted to scan their logs for it.
I have some sympathy for this view, but if we kill terrorists, at least those we kill won't be able to do anything like this again.
And since they are not afraid of death, surely this wouldn't matter for them either?
The way to win is to make sure everyone knows that terrorists inevitably lose. Look at McVeigh; he wanted to sabotage the Clinton administration through his attacks, but people immediately rallied behind their President and he would up at least doubling in the polls. Surely not what McVeigh was seeking?
D
I think the only reason they went for this is due to the incredibly high profile nature of this situation.
The US will attack anyone it pleases, breaking international law if it has to, which it has done repeatedly. Most of our attacks dating back to the early 80's (Latin America) and probably earlier are usually denounced in the international press. There are only three things that really deter our government from attacks:
1) US public opinion
2) international public opinion
3) threat of counterattack (ie we don't attack Russia because they killed x number of people over issue x, because they can nuke us. Countries like the former Yugoslovia or Somalia do not present this problem).
And really #1 and #2 can be kept to a minimum when no one knows what is going on to begin with when the media doesn't report it.
Since #1 is the most important you see information controls and propeganda in the US far more than the rest of the "civilized world". As such you can go to Canada and at least get a more accurate picture of things going on in the world, instead of another evening of Larry King talking to Chandra Levy's parents and a 1 paragraph mention of the thousands of people killed by security forces in country x in the back of the New York Times.
If at a minimum the investigation shows the attackers to be Arab, whether they are connected to Bin Laden or even if they are American citizens, Afghanistan will be crushed. This is looking more likely by the hour.
I only hope that any law maker that tries to use this horrid attack as a platform for the 'Evils of Technology' will realize that this whole attack was carried out with airplanes siezed by men with knives and fake bombs. All of which existed LONG before the Internet and easy personal encryption.
There ONLY effective reform for a case like this is heightened in-aircraft security (seperate pilot cabin, possible sleeping gas capsules in the passenger area, etc..) and/or possibly stricter immigration checks.
-Zane
This sig is worse than my last.
Our local morning paper released an afternoon edition which had a nice list of companies and what floors they are on.
Many of the companies who had offices weren't only banks of the world, but computer/internet companies.
Any news about Sun Microsystems and the like?
Get your Unix fortune now!
If you stand back and do nothing you invite the terrorists to come back and take another stab at it. If you show that you aren't affected by the tragedy at all you will also encourage them to do something worse next time.
The thoughts of fear over the prospect that this horrible tragedy will be used to justify turning the United States of America into a police state like no other in history with subsequent effects on the rest of the world, the inability to understand the loss of life even though I've never stood foot on American soil, and worry about future developments have all crossed my mind as I have spent the past three hours reading incredible posts on Slashdot. But... one harrowing image came to my mind that I haven't seen mentioned yet...
Imagine what was going through the the minds of the terrorists piloting the second plane to the World Trade Center.
They would have seen that the first plane had hit. They would have known that they were going to hit. They would have realized that their mission would be a complete success.
I fear what will happen if the American public finds out from a recovered cockpit voice recorder that the last joyous words spoken by the madmen were "Allahu akbar"...
France had some huge storms around Christmas 1999,
and much of the national power grid was down. Of course the big cities were fixed quickly, but the smaller towns were in the dark for a week or more. How long the phone system worked depended on the type of switch serving the town.
IIRC older phone switches had diesel generators and would stay up as long as required as they could be refueled. The newer ones had batteries (cheaper and smaller) and would only run for a three or four days.
Obviously the details will be different, but I'd expect something similar here. Y(M/km)MV
...that on some level, we brought this upon ourselves.
Our "defense" industry is largely what caused this debacle -- the number one export for the United States is weapons. Think about that for a second -- we make more money selling weapons to the rest of the world than any other thing that we make.
The middle eastern countries are mostly split into 2 factions. We, in the United States, choose one of the 2 teams and sell arms to them. Often, we will sell arms to both sides. Remember iran-contra? Anyone? Anyone? Oh, wait, that was patriotic heroism. Only a crackhead or a defense industry salesman would sell fucking ARMS to IRAN.
So, basically, our #1 export is pouring gasoline on fires that have burned for thousands of years. Eventually, one of those fires hits us back here at home, and everyone wants to cry out "more defense" as if this could protect us, or help us sleep at night.
This attack is a reminder that ballistic missles aren't going to save us anymore. Star wars isn't going to stop 8 men with knives from hijacking
domestic flights.
The only thing that is going to save us a sane, rational foreign policy that doesn't incense our enemies in the middle east.
This isn't even a partisan issue. Clinton is as much to blame as either Bush, Ronald Reagan is as much to blame as Lyndon Johnson.
We as a nation need to stop instigating fights if we want to stay out of them. It's that simple.
For example, if a plane diverges from its set flight-path a mechanism should kick-in which sets it on autopilot at x-thousand feet. This can only be overriden by ground control.
Or, how about a button that upon pressing locks the airplane on a fixed altitude and sounds the alarm. You know, like the safe in any convinence store.
Submit your own idea.
As important, the signal to noise ratio is the best I've ever seen - almost everyone has been respectful and honest. I will admit to being an occasional troll myself, and I'm very pleased that there has been almost zero harassment or false stories - just as it should be.
One of the stories is now number one on the Hall of Fame with 2422 stories. Again, just as it should be.
Many thanks to the Slashdot crew for keeping the site running, and posting such meaningful, powerful stories. And thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. It's made a difference for thousands of people.
sulli
RTFJ.
So should we nuke all the Christians back to the Stone Age?
Pearl Habor saw 2400 military personel dead.
Our final reaction? Nuke Japan.
We're gonna see around 10k+ civilians dead here. If you think we're gonna bluff anybody you're in for a shocker.
Our favorite search engine's list
Free unix account: freeshell.org
Secondly, we have to be realistic about striking back at terrorists and the nations who host them. This has little to do with right and wrong - the US has meddled in the Middle East for decades, and Islamic regimes are well known for their support of terror policies. There are no innocent parties, so forget about who has morality on their side. Start worrying about protecting your famillies, interests, values, and property. You were never in the "right" so forget about sheltering your petty morality. This is a war. You will have to kill innocent civillians. If you do not, you may die. Those who support Islamic fundamentalist regimes are your enemy, regardless of their direct involvement with terrorist acts.
Americans killed plenty of innocent Germans and Italians and Japanese in WW2 to protect its interests. It was acceptable then, it is acceptable now.
Two floors of the WTC were home to Sun's NYC operations. According to Sun, at least 300 of their New York employees are unaccounted for.
Let's say Amazon spends 100 million last year, and took in 101 million in revenue excluding the donation "revenue" They would owe taxes on 1 million dollars. add a million to revenue, ans a million to expenses, they still owe taxes on a million dollars(their ACTUAL profit). If you are going to be stupid, please don't be anonymous, so that your Karma will relect your stupidity!
My other sig is extremely clever...
Are they going to allow their planes to be seized by hijackers [cooperate for ransom], or are they simply going to put the helm over into a dive rather than surrender? Or try aggressive flying (barrel rolls) before that?
The whole matter is very macabre, but needs to be thought through. IMHO, the total tower pancake collapses was an unexpected payoff to terror. What are the odds? Is it better to deliberately crash than possibly be used as a kinetic/incendary projectile?
I've been seeing media reports that both the White House and Air Force One was initally a target.
I understand how you'd hit the White House (same as any other building), but how exactly were they planning to take down Air Force One? Does anyone have details or even a guess?
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Why the hell can't we have cameras on airliners broadcast video to the ground or satellites? Would it be too hard or too expensive? I can get a webcam for under $50 i'm sure, why can't airlines?
"America, I smoke marijuana every chance I get."
The security people teased me a little about it, but I was allowed to take them with me. The bicycle pump looked like a pipe bomb under the x-ray apparently.
But to think that this tragedy started with these bastards stabbing stuardesses and pilots. It would be so easy to hide stabbing weapons in something. You can never fully detect that. Even a plastic stabbing weapon could be used.
One thing is certain now though. If hi-jackers take over a plane now.... a lot more people on board will try to be a hero(which we are told not to do). I'm am glad those passengers on the PA flight stopped them before they got to their destination.
In all likelihood you are 15 and smoking pot
in your parents' home.
Please post a URL before you spread rumors.
Thanks and have a drug-filled weekend.
I do not know if this is obvious to everyone else but I want to say it. This act has proved that terrorists are a signifigant threat to EVERYONE. Any of us could have been visiting that area.
In effect this act has opened hunting season on every terrorist on the planet. Not just the ones that are capable of this large of a disaster, but any terrorist group that can eventually grow to this threat level.
I think that the community of terrorists have been smart enough up until now not to threaten everyone like this because they knew it would be their deaths. If you see a bombing in an embessy in some country you never heard of and you think, what a shame. But a major coordinated attack against a place I might have actually visited makes me fear for my life.
If they have any intelligence anyone who calls themselves a terrorist better destroy any proof of what they are and go strait. Other wise they will end up dead. I am sure that the the governmets will not stop hunting these people down even after they get the ones responsible for the WTC attacks.
I almost went down and signed up for the military. I just wanted to get the chance to kill these bastards. If you can get a slacker like me to want to join up then imagine what effect this has on our military. The people who signed up to defend our country before they were threatened.
I appologize for my poor writing skills, I failed english many times.
Damn, I wouldn't be so upset that I died except that I lost my colt.
If there is one reason why wolves prey on sheep, it is simply because sheep behave like sheep. If sheep banded together and fought off the wolves, limited as a sheep's natural defenses are, wolves would not kill sheep.
It's a simple parallel, but the metaphor is strong. Bank robberies commit robberies because they believe they will get money. Kidnappers steal children because they believe it will be profitable. Hijackers hijack planes because they believe they will be successful. If average citizens really hated terrorism, if they hated it so much that they were willing to sacrifice their own lives as a deterrant to future terrorist acts, terrorists would realize that their attacks would be fruitless.
The whole idea of a hostage is the assumption that a person threatens the life of another person who doesn't want to lose theirs. If people weren't averse to losing their lives in the name of stopping a global evil--terrorism--perhaps we wouldn't see those evils take place. It's ironic that one of our most cherished Western qualities, the sanctity of life, is also what makes us so vulnerable to those who don't hold that to be an important trait.
But ultimately, I don't think it can happen. What parent would be the first to give up a child? What passenger would be the first to take the bullet when they rush the hijackers? What bank customer would be willing to confront an armed gunman? But if us sheep could stop being sheep, I think something special would happen...
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
..your objective is the hijacking of four (4) commerical airliners. Your date is set for September 11. This gives you just shy of 6 months. Now, lets play make believe for a bit. Assuming that 6 months ago, that was said between a dozen or so commited individials, what could happen?
;) Otherwise, this is the sort of operation you could run blind, without outside direction.
Well, lets play this on a few assumptions. First, get into groups (cels) of 3. Maybe 2. Family members would be encouraged to group up as that lowers suspicion. Commit to a date and go for silence. Make no contacts with the other cels, save possibly a reserved 'abort' method. Now, lets figure out what each group needs.
First, a PC with an Internet connection. Second, a copy of MS Flight Simulator. A credit card, stolen or otherwise. A file and some plexiglass.
Now, the PC is to send the abort code, order your tickets online and practice your flying skills. You'll probably need to download supplemental instrumentation information, but those are easily available on Google.
Take a flight course or 2 just to make sure you're not completely clueless. Review navigation in MSFS. Congrats, using public information, you can now fly and probably even navigate with a commercial airliner.
Granted, you can't land or take off with it, but the former is moot and the latter is already dealt with after you sharpen your plexiglass down to thin shards and sneak it onto the plane.
Since the date was decided so long ago, the only real problem is the statistical odds of you and another cel booking tickets on the same flight
Ideally, don't leave any warm bodies behind, it makes the investigation all the more difficult.
Granted, I doubt the operation was run this way. Organizations have a bad habit of leaving papertrails, both real and electronic.
You are a stupid fuck
What about a genocide?
Zeb
While headed into downtown Philly today I heard on the radio that a guy was pulled out of the WTC rubble today, alive, and "not really hurt that badly," according to someone who I presume would be one of the rescuers who pulled him out.
The amazing-if-true part is that he said he was on the 80th floor of one of the buildings when it collapsed... I was only kinda half listening at the time, so I don't have complete specifics.
If it's not BS, that dude must have had one hell of a ride.
Anyone else hear this? Still nothing on CNN.com about that guy.
~Philly
How about killing the brains and money that convinced these chuckleheads that suicide attacks are glorious? Knock the head off the beast.
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Doing absolutely nothing would be an impressive reaction. But it will never happen. America must react. Why? My reasoning is slightly different than yours: Politicians must fight for re-election. Any politician who is against retaliation would be comitting professional suicide. Speaking of reservations is one thing, but doing anything other than fully going along with whatever the President's plan will be would cause a massive public uproar. This has caused to much pain for too many people -- ignoring it is not an option. Emotions conflict with logical reasoning. I've unfortunately encounterred this sentiment more frequently than I'd like to admit.
---
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
and economic sanctions which starve children
1. Kill all fucking idiots
2. See 1
You are so fucking stupid. Yes, we are going to nuke the hell out of someone. But, you --- newsflash: hitler is dead you fucking racist.
I hope your kind is among the dead during retaliation.
I am not condemming US policy - the US was right to support the Israelis, and the oil sheiks have been filling our cars with cheap gas for decades.
for the same reason you dont want camers watching you every other damn place.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Interesting...
Now, does this mean that the U.S. must consult with the Security Council before taking any action? ("Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council")
I'm not sure if that's the case, but it might help temper a hot-handed solution the U.S. might think up on it's own (although I hope it wouldn't go that far), and if so, it's a pretty damn smart move on NATO's part.
Just thinkin...
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
Maybe Condit should be looked into regarding yesterday's events...
This website has many images of the disaster from space. Out of all the images, I found this one the most disturbing.
Keep those donations coming!!
sulli
RTFJ.
Fly your flag "in the name of our God." It is God who strengthens us out of Zion; it is God who defends us; it is God who sends us help from the sanctuary.
--Jon
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
What's up with the promotion of audio and video sites?! The phone network is dammaged and jammed so the internet is the only useful means of communication many people have. Let them use it for their mail or personal communications! We should disscourage people from visiting sites that simply package things that can be had by traditional broadcast methods (remember radio and TV?), especially video formats.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
How absurd. Are you suggesting taking the extra police off of the streets and not introducing any more effective security mesaures at airports? Precautions can protect you. You learn what precautions are useful from experience. You are suggesting that we not learn anything from this experience at all.
This is an excerpt from an analysis I just received from Stratfor
The big winner today, intended or not, is the state of Israel.
Israel has been under siege by suicide bombers for more than a
year. It has responded by waging a systematic war against
Palestinian command structures. The international community,
particularly the United States, has pressured Israel heavily to
stop its operations. The argument has been made that the threat
of suicide bombings, though real, does not itself constitute a
genuine threat to Israeli national security and should not
trigger the kind of response Israel is making.
Today's events change all of this.
First, the United States no longer can argue that Israel should
endure the bombings. Moving forward, the domestic American
political mood simply won't tolerate such a stance.
Second, Israel now becomes, once again, an indispensable ally to
the United States. The United States is obviously going to launch
a massive covert and overt war against the international radical
Islamic movement that is assumed to be behind this attack. Not
only does this align U.S. and Israeli interests but it also makes
the United States dependent on the Israelis -- whose intelligence
capabilities in this area as well as covert operational
capabilities are clearly going to be needed.
Excuse me...big winner, intended or not?
Is this a suggestion that some Israeli faction might be involved?
Who benefits? Who pays?
I can't see this being a Palestinian operation. The last thing they want is a pissed-off US pouring more money into Israel. It might have been Bin Laden but I would've expected him to show more of a sick sense of "pride" in his handiwork. The Iraqis? maybe, but Iraq is monitored pretty closely and they know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of US ire. Answer who benefits and you might be close to uncovering the source of this wickedness.
This'll probably get modded to hell, but I don't care. Karma isn't everything.
You're using her as bait, Master!
but if we kill terrorists, at least those we kill won't be able to do anything like this again.
Great idea, but it lacks the reality component. You see, you can kill them, kill them all. Then next year, there is another, and after him/her there is another. There will always be another. You see, terrorism will always exist as long as it is effective. As long as it spurs a reaction that may cause a nation to change.
The main objective of a terrorist is to make the civil public change their views which in turn changes public policy and the government's role. Does it always work? Not really. But it does make us think about the message. It makes us think "Why would someone be so desperate to make themselves heard that they would kill thousands of civilians as well as themselves?" That question is followed by the inevitable "...and what is that message??".
I am not saying that just ignoring this terrible attack is the way to go. I still think making whomever is responsible pay is a priority. But I think that we need to maintain our focus as a nation and to look into ways that we can make this type of terrorism ineffective and as difficult as possible to implement.
google groups
:-(
This madman was warning people about the event before it happened!
This guy seemed to be warning people on the newsgroup about the end of the world, etc etc. And that tomorrow you will understand my warnings, blah blah blah.
Maybe it's crap, but it's still fricken given me chills.
Princeton University has links to 24-hour coverage.
is at this location, for what it's worth.
sulli
RTFJ.
Not only monetarially, even though my company has donated over $500,000 already, there have been many, many more stories of fantastic generosity in the face of these attacks. Allow me to share a story.
I have a story to relate about blood donating today. My wife Melissa and I went to our local donation center yesterday to try to donate blood. We picked our daughter Alexis up early from school and went to stand in line. We got there around 3 and put our names on the list. After waiting about 45 minutes or so we were told it would be at least a couple more hours, so we went home and made some sandwiches and had a light dinner, then went back around 5. Around 6:20 we were told the nurses were exhausted and wouldn't be able to get very many more people through and we were asked to make appointments for donating the next day. We made an appointment for noon the next day and left.
All of that is kind of peripheral to the story though. The real story is the vast number of other people who were there. There was a line of people out the door and halfway around the building. I'd estimate a hundred people or more. For a donation center which only services about a dozen people a day on a regular day, this was an extremely busy day. They were eliminating much of the paperwork and putting it off so they could keep up the rate at which they actually drew blood(I later found out that they had stayed past 11 to catch up on the paperwork even though they stopped drawing blood around 7). But the donors were there, and they stayed there for HOURS. There were people who were there, standing outside the doors of the donation center, from before noon until almost 6 PM. The mood was very friendly, there was not too much chatting, everything was kind of subdued, but optimistic and glad to do whatever they could to help, even though they were hundreds of miles away(the DFW area) and no one I spoke with knew anyone in those areas. They were just there because they felt it was the right thing to do. There was a little bit of grumbling when people were turned away, but most made future appointments.
Today Melissa and I went back for our noon appointment. The place was packed again. There was a line out the door AGAIN! There were donations of food and refreshments from local stores. Papa Johns pizza had a person who had come out early that morning with the back of his SUV loaded with pizza and sodas. He donated blood and then spent the rest of the day handing out pizza and drinks to any and everyone who wanted some who was waiting in line. He left a couple of times to go get more and fresh pizza for the staff and people donating. The backup and wait was large again. People were taking a number, getting a time estimate of when their number would be called then going back to work and calling in when their time was close. If they were about to be called, they left work and came back. And they REALLY DID COME BACK!
Jason's Deli dropped off several party trays of snacks and bags and bags of deli sandwiches like they would bring to a catered event. The Kroger down the street came by with supplies of bottled water and food because many people, myself included, were skipping lunch to come stand in line. Both today and last night there were several people who took the day off work/school to volunteer at the center to handle the non-medical work. They were passing out questionnaires, making sure all the donor info was filled out correctly, keeping the lines flowing smoothly and doing their best to keep the work flowing well. I estimate six or seven volunteers last night and an equal number today. Things like bringing new bags and tourniquets for the nurses, keeping the lines in order, walking up and down the lines answering questions about the wait, how long you have to wait between donations, reassuring people who were first-time donors and who were nervous.
There was a young man who skipped school today because he felt that volunteering to help the nurses at the donation center was more important. When I saw him he was helping a woman who was feeling faint after donating by keeping her company and keeping a cool, wet rag on her forehead and bringing her drinks and snacks. He was running errands for the nurses and helping patients in any way he could. He was cracking jokes and making many people feel more comfortable during what is a very nerve wracking experience for first time donors. The nurses expressed their appreciation for his efforts a couple of times in the short time I was there.
The number of people who shared their time, their money, their very lifeblood(literally!) to give aid to strangers whom they shared nothing with except the distinction of being Americans. Then the acknowledgement of the needs of the support workers who do vital things like draw blood and the outpouring of help given by volunteers and local businesses. Melissa and I were spending time re-assuring first time donors(I've donated well over a gallon and Melissa has donated several times as well) and while she was on the table(after I was done) I took the kids and went across the street and purchased several gallons of orange juice and apple juice to stock the pantry of the donation center(it is important to drink juice or water, not soda, because soda is a diuretic). I wish I could do more and so do many of the other people who were in line. America has a fantastic reputation for pulling together in a time of crisis, and I consider myself privileged to have been in the same room with so many giving, caring people yesterday and today. If any of you can, please donate blood and/or support the Red Cross.
I'm including a snippet of an email sent out to us at work with contact info for the local Red Cross and donation info. If you're not in the DFW area, please look up your local chapter and ask what they need. Typically they need money because they can't ship supplies up there due to air travel restrictions.
If you would like to donate money, you can make checks payable to Red Cross, and mail directly to:
Red Cross
4800 Harry Hines Blvd.
Dallas, TX 75235
Writing DR789 in the memo line of your check will ensure the money goes directly to the victims of the WTC and Pentagon tragedies.
Or, you can call 1-800-HELP-NOW to make a donation by phone. For more information, go to the Red Cross website at www.redcross.org. Since they are having heavy web traffic today, you may or may not be able to access the site.
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
The outpouring of generousity is incredible, but let's not forget that there is going to be a fund established for the families of all the firefighters, policemen, medical workers and other who died performing their duty, trying to get civilians to safety.
At least 300 firefighters are missing and presumed dead. While I'm sure they all have nice pensions, it often isn't enough. One firefighter is reported to have 10 children and the question is raised who will take care of them with their father gone?
I myself have three friends who are firefighters (over in CA, they mourn the loss of their comrades across the country) and I hope that we all don't get lost in the moment. I'm sure the Red Cross has the resources they need right now to provide care (except for blood, which they probably still need) so try to remember there is going to be a LOT of need in the coming months.
It will be a very cold winter for many NY families.
- JoeShmoe
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
Im sorry to say.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
My guess is the final reaction will be along the lines of 60 days of carpet bombing. Who knows!
Now, if Bill Gates was looking for a cause to establish himself as a humanitarian and a philanthropist, this would be it. And not just a Red Cross donation either. City equipment needs to be replaced (fire trucks for example). Streets and buildings need to be repaired. And victim's families could use all they help they could get. The list goes on.
C'mon Bill, what do you say?
If the pilot needed ground clearance to assume manual control... how many of these planes would have been hijacked? Or, at least, is the 'panic' button that signals to the ground that there might be some problem relinquished control of the aircraft strictly back to the autopilot, or perhaps straight back to the ground. (Where the autopilot is in charge of the 'tactics' of flying, while the ground controls 'strategy', like whether that cold front should be avoided.)
El Al, Israel's airlines, really doesn't have hijacking problems. Partially due to Israeli security, but the omnipresence of skymarshals armed with guns with glaser rounds (which are unlikely to penetrate the skin of the aircraft).
Forget about keeping the moral high ground in the Middle East because you never had it. Instead, protect your interests. Make sure you win, not them. Forget about the "good guy" winning because if you lift up the veil you may find the "good guy" is not you, or anyone else.
Forget about war. Who are you going to fight? These terrorists are not guys who walk around town in battle fatigues. Like Vietnam, the live in villages, with guns buried in the garden.
To fight terrorism ask Zimbaweans about the war against independance. Beat them at their own game, by going on missions of three people, living off the land, booby traps, etc.
Forget cruise missiles and save the world!
Yes, atheism has no reward system. This is a GOOD THING. It's partly the stupid belief in some promised reward in the afterlife that motivates suicide bombers.
Perhaps that causes some people to get depressed. GOOD. They're realising the world isn't fair.
But we can MAKE THE WORLD BETTER. It's something humans can do. It's something that delusional humans tend not to do.
I think people should be free to beleive whatever they want - but as soon as those beliefs translate into actions against me or the people I care about, then I think they're fair game for annahilation.
Just as no-one seriously still teaches the world is flat, no one should still seriously teach that any god exists.
Even if a god did exist, he/she/it is quite obviously NOT deserving of our praise - one need only to look at history for that little lesson
Cisco also donated 4 million to help care for the families of victims.
Some flamebaits from a European web surfer:
1. There's nothing like a stupid Javascript programmer to make the most casual Html FORM a nightmare...
2. There's nothing like a stupid American programmer to make the most casual ZIP, State or Phone INPUT field a nightmare... Would you, American Javascripters out there, believe that some country actually use letters in their ZIP or have more/less than 10-digit phone numbers? Grrbl!
Terrorist thrive on two things. The suffering of those they claim to represent, and the (however false) moral high ground that they claim by demonizing their targets.
If we reach out to the average Palestinian, Sudanese or Iraqi citizen and offer them a better life, reiterate our support of thier religious freedom and show them that we are not out to murder them and extinguish their beleifs the support and mandate that terrorism enjoys will erode. Soon they will be falling all over themselves to claim the bounty on bin Laden and his ilk.
Thank you, God.
information is immaterial
I do not think armed pilots is an appropriate measure. I do think that eliminating carry on luggage would be a giant step in securing air traffic. Annoying for passengers, yes. Annoying for would-be hijackers, most definitely.
I think McVeigh had a far longer range view of things then whether Clinton went up or down in the polls. Sweating over opinion polls and "popularity" is something politicians worry about, which is precisely why people like McVeigh despise politicians - not just Clinton, but Bush as well (Bush is, on all the issues important to McVeigh, just as big a traitor as Clinton).
Terrorists don't "invariably lose". If McVeigh's actions helped destroy a do-nothing conservative movement, that would be a plus for McVeigh, not a minus. If the recent suicide bombings change American public opinion enough to give Israel carte blanche to carry out more murders and de facto ethnic cleansing in Israel, that is a plus for the fundamentalists, not a minus, because in such a situation Arafat will be totally discredited - Arafat is a secular Arab nationalist, not a fundamentalist, and who, in spite of his demonization in the West is in fact a mildly moderate compromiser in comparision to the fundamentalists.
You see, the "terrorists" aren't just engaging in a war against their external enemies, but against their internal enemies as well. The Islamic fundamentalists see most of the existing governments in the middle east as traitors who have sold out Islam to Israel and the USA. If their terrorism in the West further serves to undermine the existing Arabic regimes, so much the better for them.
Which just goes to show you how much your average Westerner fails to understand the realities of the middle east or the nature of politics.
Does anyone know if the Port Authority had an insurance policy on the complex?
I wonder what the combined cost of insurance claims for property and from the victims will be
I just heard on CBC coverage that One Liberty Plaza a 54 story building around the WTC complex is ready to fall. They have evacuated the area around it. It has already partially collapsed. There is now a 10 block perimeter for evacuation of emergence personnel.
I'm a member of the US public and I don't want blood.
I want justice and I'm tired of this kind of behavior being tolerated in the world.
We've put up with terrorism for a solid 30 years, but have pussy footed around really doing something about it because we don't want to deal with the mess.
Well guess what? It just got real messy anyway.
It was quite simply an act of war.
Downing a plane is terrorism, the damage done yesterday is nothing short of if they had launched missles against the US.
As for arming pilots. A better system would be a way for the pilots to be totally locked off from passengers on-board and have the ability to knock out everyone in the passenger section either by gas, tazer, sound, whatever.
They have shown that they will kill passengers to take control. In a hostage situation the pilots safety should superceed the passengers in thier ability to land or force land the plane.
Yes it's sad to loose 300 people. It is even more sad to loose 10's of thousands.
There are hundreds of known terrorists. I don't think that the point of this lesson is to mobilize the entire United States in the effort to wipe out one specific terrorist group. It should extend to all terrorists. The denial given out by various terrorist groups only show that they are terrorist groups. Since terrorism at any scale is reprehnsible it should not make one iota of difference if you bomb a cafe with no casualties or follow through on the recent, horrible events. You should be treated the same way.
The problem lies in the fact that there is no tangible target which to direct military force. Bombs cannot descriminate between the innocent and the guilty, soldiers can, but they have to know what to look for. Terrorists are small groups of people who plan in secret and are not very keen on announcing their intentions. The only way to detect these people is with Police and Inteligence agencies. The military can provide the force at that point.
I bet the US government will attack the Afgahn Taliban and make many arrests, to the cheers of it's citizens, but the problem of terrorism will still remain. The only way to combat this effectively is to severly restrict the freedoms and processes of society as we know it. It's analagous to network security as I'm sure many here can relate. You must constantly screen traffic and be on the look out for bad stuff. Rouge procceses and the like. This means monitoring things much more closely. You had better be prepared for greater Police power and restricted rights. Just imagine, a Police state with 'Firewall USA' installed on your borders harbours and airports. If this is becomes a reality, in an awful sort of sense, this terrorist attack will have succeeded in destroying the American way of life. We can only pray that justice is done and that power is used responsibly.
All a coder really wants, are fast cars, fast women and fast algorithms.
Perhaps what we need to do is just invest in their country. Turn it into Starbuck's land. Overwhelm them with everything they hate about our country. Drown them in VCR's and Satellite TV. Turn them into TV addled zombies like we are so that they will fear death. Hell, make them fear not being home in time to watch the new episode of Friends.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Something I just thought of a little while ago, to help me gain some perspective on what happened:
A Boeing 767-400ER has a maximum takeoff mass of a shade more than 200,000 kg. It has a typical cruise speed of 840 km/h.
Using our favorite formula for kinetic energy, that comes to about 5.6 billion Joules, or between one and two tons of TNT.
Or, in other words, just the force of that much mass at that speed is about the same as a WWII blockbuster bomb. Add in some twenty thousand gallons of jet fuel...and I still can't wrap my mind around that much destructive force.
And I thought cars on the freeway were deadly!
May such magnificient machines never again be used for such awful, awful purpose.
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
Yup, you can eat my meat America.
Should the jews have been asking themselves what they did to deserve the holocoast you fucktwit?
New York is one of the largest cities on earth, does it matter what countyr it is?
If London was hit with an attack of this magnitude it would be just as a big a deal.
All the money from PayPal's donation page goes there also, just like the Amazon page. The site is here...
l ief-outside
Or copy and paste: http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/re
Given the sophiscation of this operation, it wouldn't be hard to believe whomever did this placed bogus information which mislead intel on where they should be looking...
I have been thinking about some of the technological implications of this great tragedy.
Can somebody with more knowledge than I have please discuss the efforts that have been made to make
jet fuel less explosive? I think I remember that NASA had done some experiments along this line, but that it was supposed to be "too expensive" to convert to the new mixture.
Considering all the expensive technological solutions now being proposed, should we not reconsider this one? After all, it is foolish to have a high-tech explosives detector at the entry gate when the fuel on board is already sufficiently explosive to bring down these massive buildings (all that is needed to activate it appears to be an easily-concealed razor blade and a fanatic will).
I believe that Canada has freely shared firefighters with us when fighting wildfires, and I seem to recall other crews from as far away as Australia.
The author has some valid points, but the US usually doesn't require much outside help because few disasters affect us nationally. When we do, Canada and our other friends have always come to our aid.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Just a friendly reminder that the people directly responsible for the terrorist attack are all dead. They went down with the plane. And if they acted independently (which is a possibility) there is nobody to punish, because... they are dead.
Better: if this is the case, if they can be found out, if it can be determined that they knew what they were doing, they can be prosecuted for treason and executed.
I think what we need to consider is not "what will stop these people from seeming like martyrs", but rather, "how do we stop this from happening again?". I believe just bombing people, or assasinating them, won't do enough. We prosecute people for raising the money and put them in jail, that isn't enough of a deterrant. We drop some bombs on afghanistan, they'll probably shrug and say "oh look, more bombs." They're bombing each other there already, we won't be that big a deal to them.
However, if we drop a nuke on them, that's about the most severe action we can take. How do you think any nation would feel about harboring terrorists after that? Knowing that if they get caught, we'll destroy their homes... and their children... and their whole economy... and everything and everyone they've ever known and loved? Whether or not they think the people we nuke in the first place were martyrs, I sure as hell think they wouldn't want to try it themselves.
As far as I'm concerned, as soon as we know who is reponsible for this for absolute certain, we can drop a nuke on them at once.
As long as "some" is greater than "10", I think we can call that progress.
;-)
And who knew we could absolve ourselves of any blame by using weapons made by others?!?
I say we buy a ton of Kalishnikovs and SCUDs, and blame "whatever we do with them" on the Russians!
Good plan, huh? Well, if the real world were governed by your reasoning, I guess it would be.
...yellow number five, yellow number five, yellow number five...
By not stealing everyones freedoms in the name of allah perhaps, you faggot.
It's just another fucking bloodbath
If you don't like it, don't do it
If you do, then get on with it
And shut the fuck up
'Cause I'm not impressed by death
You've dragged me there before
Fucker
And for too long I was stupid
Enough to listen while you rattled
Away my love
Drunk stupid again
I puke and there you are
In all your insane red glare
His stuff reads like he was just mouthing off. But he'll probably be interviewed by the FBI anyway.
HAW HAW!
(I don't think that link points to what you think it does.)
What utter shit.
America is not a superpower because others don't fear death? No, we have not fought back like we should have.
The answer to terrorism- find out who did it and who harbored them, and then destroy both. Not a missle into a factory, carpet bomb the whole area.
"Oh, you bombed our embassy? Say goodbye to your entire country."
There's your answer when it comes to terrorism- reply with more terror than a bomber can imagine.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
The Range Safety Officer is in charge of detonating the shuttle/rocket in the event that it is going to theaten people on the ground. (Sorry no link)
Here where I work, I've sent an email to everyone saying "if you want to donate but don't want to use your credit card, come to see me to give your donation and I will issue the whole payment as 1 transaction with my credit card, if everyone could donate 5$ or 10$, it's not much, but together we can make a difference".
Some people do lunches on friday or order pizza, well maybe for juste one week they should be grateful for living and escaping that inhuman act, and bring a lunch and donate the money they'd usually spend.
Just some ideas... I'm sure some people are reading this right now and wish to pay but don't want to give their CCs because of security in electronic transactions, or go to the trouble of signing up, well now you can do a difference.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
All I know is if we (Americans) get the wrong guy? It will cause a rain of shit on america that will make yesterday look like a good thing. Do we really want the death of Osama Bin Laden to unify the muslims against the US? This is one concequence of over-reacting in this that we must be very careful of. Other than that, nuke the fucker when you find him (or her).
In other words, NATO has agreed that the organization is in a state of war. Even if this doesn't put each individual NATO member country into a state of war, this is not good news.
I'm scared of what might happen next.
"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind." - Mahatma Ghandi
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
Acts of God and acts of war are probably (almost certainly) excluded in any such policy.
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,46766,00. html
It's pretty damn nice to see that *someone* recognizes that the value of the internet in such a horrendous crisis doesn't come from one or two companies posting information, but from hundreds and thousands of... dare I say it... heroic individuals who do their little insignifcant part to take care of people.
Kudos to sites like Slashdot and ESPN. Super Kudos to all the individuals with webcams and mirror sites. You guys did the country and world an invaluable service yesterday. As someone who is separated by thousands of miles from the horror, I thank you for giving us a information line into what really happened.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
I think the FAA and other federal agencies are starting to think in the proper manner. The security measures to be changed right away are definitely a step in the right direction:
1. No carry-on luggage.
2. No curbside luggage check-in.
3. No luggage check-in at hotels.
Number one is a great thing, no we don't have to wait so long to get off of the plane once we get to our destination.
Number two is fine, I personally don't trust curbside check-in. The only time I have ever lost luggage was when it was checked-in curbside.
Number three is good too. I don't need to wait longer at a hotel to leave because the counter person's are busy dealing with the airlines business, luggage.
Of course, this is a rather lazy society. We hate to wait; if things are going slower than normal, most people complain. Usually without understanding why, or feeling any compassion for those trying to get the job done. With these first new security measures being implemented, lines will be longer, and so will the wait. And what do we get? A better chance of making it to where we planned, safely, and in one piece.
I think we should applaud those who are trying to make things safer for us, and help them to do it better.
Those bulletins go out all the time. Never seen those signs at the airport warning about certain destinations?
It is highly unlikely that the Internet was used in any way to organize, plan, target, or launch these attacks. Chances are that none of the 20+ terrorists involved even had an email account, and if they did, it was a hotmail account used as a cover, with a subscription to a couple pro-Israel mailing lists, and a web browser history showing a few visits to flight booking sites and a bit of porn browsing on the weekends.
The Internet is monitored, logged, and data-mined like no other communications medium. It is undependable, insecure, and would not be used by terrorists for the same reasons that it is not used by the US government to plan our reprisals.
The Internet isn't good for anything much more important than Quake.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
The architect of the buildings themselves gave an interview that specifically said that the building were over-engineered for NATURAL disasters, not aircraft crashes. He said they did withstand the impacts but the explosive forces of the impacts probably stripped the fire-proofing from the steel supports, which then probably melted in the jet-fuel heat.
He said that the sprinkler systems were designed for paper, cardboard, and desk fire loads--jet fuel doesn't respond so well to water sprinklers, that's why the aviation buildings he designed have foam fire extinguisher systems--NOT water.
Once again, the architect of the trade towers themselves insisted that the buildings were prepared for any natural disaster, but that disasters like this could obviously *not* be prepared for.
He also said he didn't even know whether or not the sprinkler systems were activated, let alone helping or hindering matters any.
He said that the heat from the jet fuel melted the steel supports and that probably only a single floor gave way--but that the momentum from the drop (with all the floors above it) was enough to overload the supports below, and the supports below that, and so on right down to ground floor.
So please make the correction--they weren't designed to withstand jet impact. Maybe a propellor airplane, maybe not--I have no idea where you got that info from. Doesn't matter.
-sudog
A lot of people want to hit back at whoever did this and hit them hard. I saw suggested on the news last night that if we can prove that Bin Laden and the Taliban (indirectly as keepers of Bin Laden) can be definitively connected to this event, that we should blow up their entire government.
And, unfortunately, I think that's about the only violent way to solve this problem. Violence does solve problems, as history has shown, and contrary to school teachers. But the problem here is the bully in this schoolyard is driven by hatred. And everyone knows that punching back at someone who hates you is only going to make them hate you more. The only solutions to hatred are to defuse the hatred, or completely destroy it. You can't punch back and say "you hurt me, I hurt you back, now you shouldn't hurt me anymore because I showed you that I can hurt you a lot too."
The problem is that last approach of punching back is just about the only response which politics and the American public will accept. The people and the U.S. government won't accept an all out bomb-them-to-hell approach because that would be deemed morally unacceptable. Likewise, they won't accept an approach which attempts to defuse the hatred because that will be seen as a weak position.
As a result, we'll see some military strikes that really just amount to a few punches in the face, making the hatred grow. Unless something happens which enables the U.S. government to assasinate Bin Laden and cover it up. I doubt the other nations would allow a justification for his assasination to fly.
I think the sensible solution is to try and defuse the hatred. But, of course, people will see that as caving in to terrorist demands. But that is why we have diplomats. Diplomats are in charge of getting both parties to agree on a compromise that doesn't make either party feel like they have caved in to the demands of the other party.
And before any Americans start yelling about how we're the good guys, they're the bad guys, and their hatred is all wrong and bad, I'm telling you all to shut up because you've got hatred for those terrorists yourself. Learn to Grok, and understand that "Thou art God!"
..heard on CNN just a few minutes ago that the One Liberty Plaza building was unstable. Cops were shouting for people to run away from it if they valued their lives.
d ex .html
The building is 54 stories tall, black, and looks kinda like a large airconditioning unit with three "columns" of "slatted" windows on the east/west side, and four columns on the north/south sides..
Here's a link at skyscapers, but I expect this to be slashdotted soon.
http://www.skyscrapers.com/building/979098/e_in
right after the WTC went down, the Petrona towers announced the message "Attention, the Petronas Towers are now the tallest buildings in the world." Or soemthing along those lines, i'm not kidding, my local news station reported that.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Hi,
Since yesterday i've read lots of forums to see people's reactions. People calmed a lot today and begin to think but what amazed me is that nearly no one thinks about _why_ did this happen. Mainly every body talks about how to protect&predict such things in materialistic terms which WILL lead to loss of privacy, did you forget that 3 days ago you were "against" your government ? Now everybody is going to join the army ? I really don't think people that govern us have changed, they got nastier and will do more stupid things. A war is good for economy, isn't it?
We are on the good side to know that higher the security raises, higher leveled and creative the people that try to bypass it are. Which might not lead to a good futur for our kids.
Maybe the only way to fight terrorism is to educate people and make them understand there are other cultures around that don't think the same way and that don't necessary want to live the same way than us. Manipulating them (as most of the western countries are very good at) leads to this kind of death that more and more innocents will face.
I really don't think someone that gives out his life for a cause does it for fun nor for religion they want what we've stolen : their freedom.
If it's the talibans that did that i'm gonna laught... US gave them money and weapons
Now more innocent people are going to suffer in the US because of their skin and religion.
By Steve from www.Foggymyst.com So here we are. Areas of New York have been declared a major disaster area. The military is at Defcon 2. Thousands are feared dead. The stock market and air travel have completly shut down. America has stopped dead in the water and we dont know what to do next. What can we expect? It would be foolish to expect the apocalypse but it would be equally foolish to expect nothing. I have spent all day contemplating this as I watch horrid videos of airliners peircing through buildings. It is useless to keep these thoughts and predictions to myself, so I have detailed them out on this page for your speculation. Please note that I dont consider myself an expert by any means, but I do know that world history is one of my strengths and as an avid news watcher I consider myself versed in current happenings. Here is what we know: Two large airliners were hijacked and intentionally crashed into the World Trade Center leveling both towers and subsequentlly destroying a smaller, but still sizable, third tower. One airliner was hijacked with the intention of crashing into the Whitehouse but was seen making radical manuevers as it changed course for the Pentagon. It crashed into the Pentagon. Another airliner was hijacked but crashed outside of Pittsburgh. The president stated he will hold the terrorists and the nation harboring the terrorists equally responsible. Here is my educated guesses as to what will occur next: There will be further attacks, their magnitude is beyond me. The US will attempt to identify the organization behind this attack and any following attack. If the organization is found to be Osma Bin Laden, the following is my best guess as to what will happen- I am fairly confident that the US has a good idea where Osama Bin Laden is located. They may claim not too, but I am sure they have a good idea. Already rocket attacks are reported in Kabul. I have little doubt this is due to American influence, particulary the CIA's. The CIA is notorious for influencing various foreign activities, most notably coups and wars and due to the Afghanistan/Russian was we already have a good share of influence there. The first objective will be to destroy Osama Bin Laden and his "army". Unfortunatley Afghanistan is not located in an ideal geographic location (surrounded by Iran, Pakistan and other such nations) for a military campaign. Also, this is not the friendliest of countries. "Afghanistan was invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union in 1979. The USSR was forced to withdraw 10 years later by anti-communist mujahidin forces supplied and trained by the US, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and others. Fighting subsequently continued among the various mujahidin factions, but the fundamentalist Islamic Taliban movement has been able to seize most of the country. In addition to the continuing civil strife, the country suffers from enormous poverty, a crumbling infrastructure, and widespread live mines. " However, as you can see America already has some friendly forces (the mujahidin) in the area. Again, do you think its coincedence that Kabul was attacked this afternoon? I digress. Osama Bin Laden will most likely be hiding in a bunker built somewhere in Afghanistan. If the location of this bunker is know it will surely fall prey to a wide assortment of American missles. However, again, Afghanistans geographic location creates problmes that would hinder extended attacks. Bombs designed to destroy hardened bunkers, "bunker busters",must be delived via jet. To get to Afghanistan the US aircraft and missles must cross through Pakistanian airspace. During the 1998 missle attacks by the United States against Osama Bin Laden, 70 to 80 cruise missle made their way across Pakistanian airspace leading Pakistan to file a complaint to the UN. While this complaint did not lead to anything significant, an extended campaign in this area could cause major issues. Along with Osama Bin Laden, the US will strike at Afghanistan for sponsoring such activities. Potential targets include weapons factories, military installations (notably SAM and radar sites), fuel depots, bridges, etc. The objective would be to cripple terrorist activities in Afghanistan and to generally dent the economy of the nation. I have no doubt there is a list of potential targets being generated as I write this. Once the list of targets and objectives had been generated the attack would be launched and most likely would be over in a period of hours, possibly days but not extending into more than a week. The attack would probly consist of Tomahawk cruise missles laden with conventional warheads striking various targets spread throughout the area. For reasons mentioned above, an extended campaign would be very tricky and would be the most likely canidate for causing an escalation in hostilities. I predict that any attack by the US against Afghanistan will be extremely swift and will last but hours. Surrounding nations will object, but no official action from any such nations will occur. Finally, I predict that US sponsored guerilla activities will heighten in the region. We will see an increase in violence in Afghanistan as things progress. Attacking Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan is a tactical and political issue that could reach potentially deadly levels. I am very interested to see what happens if Afghanistan is indeed held responsible. Unfortunatley the result of any action by the US will be further terrorist attacks. This is almost a given. Also, any attack we make will not make up for what occured this morning. Nothing aside from a full scale retaliation can appease the anger that has filled America. That is my speculation for now. I am way to tired to continue so I will stop here. There is more, but I will save my insight for later. Until later. ------------- Last night I spent rougly an hour drafting the predictions I posted to my website below. I had more theories that were based off of the terrorist group not being related to Afghanistan but I reached a point where I was so tired I could barely keep writing, so I stopped. I will now continue, however I will continue with the assumption that the terrorist organization responsible for yesterday's attacks is Afghan. Yesterday I stated that a US strike against Afghanistan would have two goals: Destroy the terrorist leader Usman Bin Laden and cripple Afghanistan's military/terrorist activities. If the strike were to be along the same magnitude as the previous strikes against Afghanistan I predicted we would see a short offensive consisting almost entirely of cruise missles. I also predicted that this retaliation would fall very short of what Americans would consider ample punishment. Any offensive would undoubtley result in heightened tensions in the Middle East, price hikes at the gas pump and further terrorist attacks. Today I will focus on the possibility that the US will retaliate with a much harsher, colder offensive- which as events unfold is becoming more plausible. A large scale retaliatory attack would have the same goals as the aforementioned attack: Destroy the terrorist leader Usman Bin Laden and cripple Afghanistan's military/terrorist activities. The difference would be the extent to which this objective is carried out and an extended effort to remove the Taliban goverment (which is apparently sympathetic with terroists). My previous prediction may temporarily stun or slow terrorism but it would surely not stop it. In fact it may provide more fuel for the fire. A larger scale attack would involve severley damaging the Afghan goverment and its military as well as areas of finical importance. This may slow terrorism, or it may increase it. I dont know. Unfortunatley, no allied nations border Afghanistan. Due to this we are nearly guarenteed an air war which depends wholely on our ability to defeat the Afghan air defenses. In order to carry out air attacks, coalition aircraft must tresspass through another country's airspace, either Pakistan or Iran. In this case it would most likely be safer to go through Pakistan as we have done before, but Pakistan could become hostile-- although I doubt this will occur. Keep in mind that Pakistan is the only goverment that recognizes the Taliban goverment in control of Afganistan so one could easily deduct they are near allies. To what extent Pakistan would defend its airspace, to what extent it would aid Afghanistan and to what extent the United States would violate it Pakistani airspace is anyones guess. I can imagine the Afghan goverment demanding the Pakistani goverment shoot down American craft. I can also imagine a potential political and possible physical conflict developing over this issue. A ground war is almost totally out of the picture. Again, to get troops into Afghanistan would require penetrating another country's air space. Furthermore, a ground war would be dangerous at best as Afghanistan has already been host to a 10 year war meaning veteran guerillas are in abundance and worse still is the area littered with mines. So in summary, an extended campaign against Afghanistan would surely be air based. It would bring up many issues for Pakistan and their relations with Afghanistan and would surely make the area "hot" as things became hostile. Ground assault is almost completley out of the question. However, other nations siding with Afghanistan could complicate the issue beyond all reason and lead to a greater conflict that could dwarf previous conflicts in the Middle East. I guess we'll see what happens.
Well, I'm glad that the government isn't being hasty about retaliation. If nothing else we need to find out what group or groups were involved in planning and carrying out this terrorism and make them pay the same way they decided to make thousands of innocent civilians pay for something that had nothing to do with them. Of course the course of action I agree with is whether or not terrorist harboring nations turn over the guilty parties they themselves are just as guilty for harboring these terrorists up until the point of this attack. If it turns out to be that bin Laden and his organization were behind this then we start by a strike against his camp(s) in Afganistan and then every major military base in that country, from there we move on to the military bases in Iraq, Sudan, Syria, Iran, and any other country which is known to harbor and support terrorists. Of course, we haven't been out from under Clinton long enough to grow the balls for a task like that. So I will be happy enough if Bush orders an attack on the terrorists and the military bases of whatever country is found to support them.
And a link to an image I found on another message board which pretty much sums up my feelings about the matter.
http://www.bailbondsupplies.com/chris_only/home
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
Does anyone have any objection to facial recognition systems at customs? And a database of people who should either be checked out carefully, bounced, or arrested on the spot?
Didn't think so.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
One thing that I have never seen mentioned anywhere that could definitely prevent this sort of disaster from happening again is to implement a remote control system for all passenger airliners. In the situation of a hijacking, either the pilots, or ground staff (air traffic controller) switch the plane over to remote operations. At this point, the pilots cannot regain control of the plane until it is landed and reset by the FAA. There are already sizable planes that are remote controlled, and owned by the military. With todays flight control systems, I don't think it would be too difficult as they are all controlled by wire, and communicate extensively with ground operations somewhere anyways.
Just a thought, but it would definitely be nice. Perhaps deter a few terrorists, if they knew that they could not maintain flight control of an aircraft.
so, the world trade center is burned to the ground like a bundle of sticks.
...
(literally - from an engineering standpoint, the 'bundle of sticks tied together' that was the WTC infrastructure was undone with a simple burn)
and all that's left is stones.
oh, and a whole lotta name calling
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Not all terrorists do not fear death. Bin Laden for instance does. He's not the one who's performing the suicide attacks, his minions are. The Taliban, who are harboring Bin Laden, also fear death.
Sure, as I understand it, their belief is that dying for their cause is a straight ticket to heaven, but that doesn't mean they don't fear death. Christians also believe that they will be sent to heaven at their death, but that doesn't erase the fear of death in all of us. And obviously whoever is behind this, fears death, because they haven't taken accountability for it. These people aren't fearless, they're cowards.
The reason that these terrorists are willing to die isn't common to their culture. It's common to any military establishment. The purpose of training soldiers is to get them to do things rational people would not normally do. We train our soldiers this way, and every army in history had to lead men, who had a better chance of dying than surviving into a battle. In war there is an expected loss of life on all sides, everyone involved is aware of this.
Making these terrorists out to be somehow braver than Americans is simply false. Up to 300 firefighters risked and lost their lives trying to save people at the WTC. They knew they were at risk, and put their lives in harms way to help someone else. This is bravery on a national scale. A few terrorists lost their lives, to perform a dispicable and cowardly act, this is not bravery.
These terrorists do not have the tools or the resolution to win. We can, should and will fight them. America has the resources, resolution, and unity to do this, the commitment from our allies only makes us stronger. These terrorists are weak, and they are cowards. They will fall quickly, and those who have harbored them in the past will be afraid to harbor them in the future.
"More on tragedy" .. the title of this story .. it sounds like "moron tragedy", which is quite appropriate seeing as most of the Americans who died are - sorry, were - morons.
I have a good idea for hi-jack prevention - put big bullet/explosive resistant doors onthe cockpit. The pilots have all their food with them, and on 747's the whole top deck is locked too so the relief pilots can stay there. The doors are locked from the pilots side, and in the event of a hi-jack, they press a button that plays loud music in the cockpit so they can't hear the terrorists threatening to kill the people outside.
If i was bush i'd be sh*ting my pants. I mean, it would be almost entirely my fault for running such a loose ship that people with out even an AK-47 could hi-jack 4 planes and bomb the pentagon, wtc, and almost the white house. That goes for the other incompetent leaders around the world including the UN and Blair. Isn't it obvious from previous events and films that: planes flying over or near cities, Kamikaze Islamic extremists, low security, and big tall buildings are accidents waiting to happen.
Why do people accept religions? children will believe anything they are told, and if they're told that they should kill themselves to do someones bidding then thats what they'll do. True most religions are pretty tame, but Islam is not, and extreme Islam is pretty dangerous, but no, its politically incorrect to persecute someones beliefs, bull shit. I'm not saying it was islamics who we're responsible, but even if it wasn't, it just proves that people who believe in something will do anything for it.
The propaganda rating on this is way off the scale, if war is declared on the taliban, loads of dumb shmucks will go and join the army to 'fight for the freeworld' and shit. Not realising that they are just doing Bushes bidding.
If i was responsible for this, i would now be thinking what i should do next - the White House plane went bad, so i might consider sending another one to finish the job. Or, maybe if i was feeling more ambitious, i would use a nuke or bio weapons (if i could get hold of them). American airspace can't stay closed for ever.
In Memorial of the Victims of Mass Murder
by Richard Carrier
The Internet Infidels are all in a state of shock at the most disturbing manifestation of orchestrated evil since the Holocaust. I live in New York city, just four miles from where the twin towers stood. My wife Jennifer works in a building only forty blocks away. She is well, but had to be evacuated. All we could do is give blood. I had vivid nightmares last night about the horror the victims, both on the planes and in the buildings, must have suffered in the moments before their deaths. I now sit here in outrage at the callous lack of compassion and the evil-bloated hatred that has allowed human beings to commit such a crime, most likely, it would seem, for the Glory of God.
I would like to express the profoundest grief for all the victims and their families and friends, on behalf of myself and all of us here at the Secular Web. We have received condoling email from around the world expressing horror and sadness. As I walk the streets of New York, I am startled to see foreign tourists looking at me and other Americans, their faces filled with a sadness and concern that they feel helpless to express. It's as if they wish to say something, to comfort us, but there is nothing to say. They feel as helpless as we do. The best I can do is pass this on to those truly hurt with loss by this tragedy: the world really does care.
I could harp on about how only a superstitious belief in immortality, only a backwards belief that the Will of God trumps all morality and compassion, would ever allow any group of men to fulfill every step of this task. We have been battling evil here for years but never believed it would show so vile an excrement as this: the mass murder of thousands of innocent civilians. But there are more important tasks before us today: not merely to prevent it happening again by locating and cutting this cancer from the earth, but to negotiate the social contract once again for a new balance between life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and the need to defend these priceless treasures against suicidal murderers. But we should also stir our memory.
My wife took her album from the dusty shelf, and found some photographs she took of those towers a few years ago. It almost made me cry to look at them. To mourn and honor the dead, we will not publish here the images splashed on the front pages of every newspaper and now incorporated into every television news graphic. Rather, with no slight intended to the victims at the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania, I would like us to remember the World Trade Center towers for what they were: a glorious and incredible achievement that brought tremendous good to the world, a place of resilience and comfort and security. I reproduce Jennifer's photographs above and below as a memorial to all those thousands of lives lost.
These buildings were an incredibly efficient and durable machine for the generation of economic wealth in an environmentally sound package: for by permitting the genuine equivalent of the entire population of a small city to work in one place, the pollution and environmental damage caused by transportation was greatly reduced. This was, almost literally, an entire city, with its own police department, stores and markets. The World Trade Center generated steady jobs for over fifty thousand people. Let no one scorn them as vain towers of Babel. These were good works.
They were also a testament to our forethought, our genius, our diligence, and our compassion, in every element of their design. Unlike many other nations that ignore or do not even demand laws for constructing buildings for safety and evacuation, the automated sprinkler systems no doubt delayed the collapse long enough to allow thousands to flee certain death through abundant and well-constructed stairwells. Indeed, had the planes not been loaded with over ten thousand gallons of jet fuel apiece for their intended cross-continental flight, the towers would likely still be standing: they were that well built. It was only the intense, sustained heat that weakened the metal supports, causing them to give way. As one engineer put it, you simply cannot build anything that could withstand that. But their construction saved the lives of thousands, partly thwarting the evil designs of madmen, and we would do well to remember that.
There is little more I can say. You will have heard it a hundred times already, but we urge everyone to give blood. I do not urge this because it is needed. Sadly, the number of survivors in need of blood is smaller than anyone expected. The disaster was that fatal. And the wave of donations across the country in the past two days will more than meet the real demand. No, I urge everyone to give blood as a symbol of solidarity and as a humanitarian act, thumbing your nose at those who would rather spill blood than give it. The world is always in need of an abundant blood supply. If it takes days to find a clinic that can accommodate the rush, that's fine: the blood you give will be of good use nonetheless. It will help someone, somewhere in the world. And this will remind us of the most crucial truth: hands that help are far better than lips that pray.
Date published: 12/09/2001
Not sure what your point was of mentioning Iran. But, keep in mind Iran has become increasingly pro-US throughout the past few years and is extremely anti-bin laden. Iran wants him dead and is the significant contributor to anti-Taliban groups.
I think the US would find Iran very well a partner in any attack on Taliban and/or bin laden.
I have a couple of points to make:
First, though I'm not neccesarily advocating the arming of pilots in cockpits, cabin de-pressurization is not that bad of a thing when compared to many alternatives. If a cabin becomes de-pressurized in flight due to a puncture in the fuselage, about the worse thing that would happen is the plane would drop a few thousand feet in order to move to a higher pressurized atomosphere. The plane would not become unflyable. Drop down masks would come down so people can breathe and the plane could be diverted to an immediate landing strip, assuming the emergency situation (terrorists) was brought under control. We all remember stories in the past about parts of planes falling off. We all remember when a huge part of the fuselage popped off a plane and people were sucked out. Even that plane landed successfully, and that is far worse than a 9mm hole in the side of the plane.
Second, air marshals were commonplace on commercial flights in the US in the 60's. Israel has been using them for many years. As a note, Israel, a country more affected by terrorism than any other nation on Earth, has never had a civilian airliner hiijacked. Granted, that is, in large part, due to more than just air marshals, but they are a key part of the security plan that Israel implements.
Personally, I think separating the cabin is a better solution. It would not stop hiijackers (because of the hostage situations which the pilots would have to deal with), but would prevent the kind of suicide attacks we saw yesterday.
However, separating the pilot cabin would require a replacement or significant structural changes to exisiting air fleets, which cannot happen in a very timely fashion. This is part of a long-term approach, but should be coupled with some short term measures including the presence of air marshals on flights and the de-privitization of airport security. Trained police and/or military personnel should be used to ensure airport security. The under $10/hour rent-a-cops should be sent back to the shopping malls.
By the way, I just heard on the news that the FAA has re-instated the sky marshal policy.
Terror and terror attacks is nothing new. There are conflicts all over the world, people have been fighting and killing each other for generations in similar suicide attacks. We see there what happens when every answer to an attack is raging retaliation. We just have to look at Israel the past months to see people killing themselves over and over again in order to get revenge.
People that were not involved before become involved. Innocent people are suddenly victims, and soon enough they are fighting back to the best of their ability. I think we all can agree that this is a vicious circle.
Many wise people have said this before, but I will say it again: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: Let the retaliation that will come only involve people that were directly responsible for this attack. Not only the US, but the world at large must agree that the retaliation hit only the people that deserved it. Otherwise this is just the first turn of a wheel that will turn over and over and over again.....
I now have the first and second plane crash videos
/.ed
on my site:
http://24.36.34.43/wtcattack/index.html
please make mirrors of this so I don't get
"the fax machine is nothing but a waffle iron with a phone attached to it." - Grandpa Simpson
As it happens the Israelies have solved this one.
They have a gun (special bullet i believe) tht has a large bullet and low muzzle velocity. Will put down a human, wont go through steel.
But secondly, to be honest, in a hijacking ill take my chances with depressurization. If the hijacker is put down there are always the breathing masks for the passengers.
A friend at Sun claims everyone got out OK. They were on floors 23 and 24 in building 2.
google's cache [ http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.nato.int/ docu/basictxt/treaty.htm ]
Obviously we are going to have to seal off Afghanistan, invade it with ground troops, section it up and dismantle the sections.
The key diplomatic question is what kind of support or opposition we will get from neighboring countries. If none of them are willing to be the base of our invasion, it may be necessary to begin the invasion in another neighboring country. I'd guess that Iran may provide this avenue if we need it.
The big question mark is Pakistan. They have nuclear weapons (but not missles, I'm told). They are one of the few countries that have recognized the Taliban diplomatically. Pakistan will be a critical player in this conflict.
I don't know much about the former soviet republics to the north of Afghanistan. The ones that touch Afg are Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikstan. Here's a ethnic map of Afghanistan. If I recall, the forces that launched the rocket attacks were the "Northern rebels". I think their attack was a PR stunt looking for allies. Maybe we can find allies to the north?
China also touches a very small piece of Afg, but the tip of Afghanistan that touches China is very sparsely populated (I think its basically the Himalayas). We want to keep this as far from China as possible.
Basically there are three possiblities I see: (1) Get Pakistan on board, like we did Saudi Arabia in the Gulf war, (2) Get one or more soviet republics on our side (3) Move east through Iran, with or without them joining the cause.
Strategically, these aren't mutually exclusive, either. Option 3 seems like the most ambitious. If Pakistan will cooperate with (1), then it's probably the simplest. Doing option (3) without Iran could easily lead us into a much larger scale mideast conflict I can't imagine Iraq staying out of a conflict so close to them.
I don't see calling this World War 3. Maybe it's "World War T", though.
The difference is when the FBI comes after you the ISP doesn't try to hide your records.
When he says that these countries "harbor" the terrorists, he's talking about how they keep them safe from justice.
For the last 36 hours, I've been keeping a weblog of the events in New York and DC, largely from the perspective of amateur vidoe and still photographers, keeps of weblogs and journals.
World New York.
Wordnik, a dictionary project which aims to collect
Im going to answer this in one place-- here.
I considerd this, there are two answers:
(1) The Isrealies have already solved this problem. They have a gun that shoots a large bullet with low muzzle velocity. Will put down a human but wont go through even the thin steel of an airplane.
(2) Frankly in a hiucjackign ill take my chances with depressurization. If the hijcakers are put down tehr are always the breathing masks for the passengers.
Oh and finally, in re trianing. As i mentioend in the original post, almost all if not all US comemrical airline pilosta re retired airforce pilots. (its abotu the only way an individual cna get Jet training in the US.) So actually they have already BEEN trained in the ahndling of a firearm.
The plane that crashed into the pentagon veered suddenly from a path towards the white house. Why? If bush was not in the white house it would not have been as important a target. Perhaps a controller elsewhere (on the ground in washington?) redirected the plane to the next target on the priority list. Communication could have been accomplished with a cell phone.
For an interesting look at exactly why the WTC towers collapsed, look at
/.er.
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.htm
This was posted earlier by another
I personally like carryon luggage as I usually pack light and don't want to wait for it at the luggage claim. I agree with you you on all other aspects. I don't mind checking my stuff if it helps prevent another problem like this.
So climate's changing. So what? It has always changed. The big news would be if it wasn't changing. - Dr. Philip Stone
It has been said the the government will be investigating suspicious cell phones calls made during yesterday's events in hopes of finding a conversation between terrorists. This is the first time Carnivore is being used in a well publicized situation - and despite my desire for the protection of free speach, I can't bring myself to flame the government for using it under these circumstances. Is Carnivore now our friend? What distinguishes when it should and should not be used?
I suspect that commercial Airports will be moved farther away from important government and economic sites. Any plane that goes out into the restricted areas will be shot down.
And I expect this whole event will gain Bush support for his Missle Defense plan.
*shudders*
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
Those have been coming out weekly or so since the USS Cole was bombed, possibly longer. Ask anyone working on a military base. Most of the time, the Washington Post doesn't even pick up on them anymore.
--
Just lurking, thanks!
One of the characteristics of resistance groups - and make no mistake that is how these people see themselves - is that if you start out with 100 revolutionaries and execute 90, when you're finished you don't have 10, or even 100, but 10,000, or even more.
What do others think of this guy's messages?
This one is erie (see message subject and date of message) and others he has posted.
"There ought to be limits to freedom"
The two pilots struggled to subdue the hijacker. They were able to hold him down enough that one pilot was able to take back the aircraft controls and pull the plane out of the dive. The plane exceeded Mach I during the dive, the pull-out stresses warped parts of the aircraft, and counterbalance weights in the tail were torn off. But the plane held together.
The plane was landed intact at Memphis, the hijacker was arrested, convicted, and is in prison, and one of the pilots was too injured to fly again. The plane itself was repaired and returned to service.
yup I have to agree
they were all sheep
living like viel
You can shove your arrogance straight up your ass . If not, perhaps you'd like to your kneecaps to meet my baseball bat.
Keep watching your TV dumbass. You have no idea what it's really like in NYC right now..... what the cameras don't show you. The body parts... the airplane parts... the firetrucks buried beneath rubble... firehoses snaking from trucks, to someplace under the rubble. There is death here. Maybe someone like you needs to see it up close and personal before you truly understand the scope of the tragedy.
As far as the terrorists not fearing death, then perhaps they should start to worry about fearing for the lives of THEIR mothers, daughters & children. Payback is coming.
They may not fear death, but they can't fly planes into buildings if they're dead to begin with.
Am I angry? Sure I fucking am. I had to step over body parts to get to my apartment yesterday. Yeah, americans like to prolong the inevitable. We, like all other normal people prefer not to die. You'd have to be a fucking madman to want to kill yourself.
Microsoft Fucking Sucks!! Up The Penguins!!
I think the Western world is looking at us, saying, "now, do you GET IT??" and waiting for us to develop a military standard on dealing with terrorism. They want us to set a precedent. They want to say, "look what happened when the US got attacked - now attack us, closer to home, and see what WE do." Whatever we do here gives the rest of the world license to do the same thing.
I just hope they don't go nuclear.
Hi everyone. As many of you are aware, people in Egypt and other countries celebrated the attacks on New York and Washington. Some of these countries receive billions of dollars in aid from the United States. I believe that people who celebrate the deaths of thousands of people do not deserve to receive any aid from those peoples' country. As a result, I've sent letters to representatives in the government, urging them to stop support to these countries. The money should be used to help the victims and their families, and to rebuild what has been destroyed. I'm including a copy of this letter below, and I invite and urge all of you to mail a copy of it to your representatives, or write your own. Please tell your family, friends, coworkers and neighbors. Let's make this as widespread as possible.
*** Begin letter ***
Dear Senators and Representatives,
People in Egypt and other countries were filmed celebrating the September 11 attacks on America that destroyed thousands of lives.
These countries receive billions of dollars in foreign aid from us--paid for by those whose lives were destroyed or altered forever by the attack. Their celebrating of these horrible acts show total disrespect and disregard for human lives, not to mention a complete lack of appreciation for the support that has continued to benefit them.
I strongly urge you to stop financial aid to these countries.
The money should instead go to victims and their families, not to those who celebrated their untimely deaths. And, of course, the money should be used to rebuild the destroyed properties and pay for the expensive investigations and other actions that must take place.
The hard-earned money of those who died should NOT go to those who celebrated their deaths.
Sincerely,
[Your name here]
[I suggest including your mailing address]
***
I don't have cable, so my only news access is via the web. With every news portal down due to heavy traffic, Slashdot was there to bring me up to speed.
anon
I just heard this on MSNBC (TV). Sorry I wasn't able to find mention of this on any website and I'm having to paraphrase this from memory so please excuse any inacacurracies (if someone can correct me, I'd appreaciate it) :
Congressman Trent Lott, following a meeting i the White House, has hinted at potential retaliatory plans as being massive and surprising/unconventional (or something to that extent). The idea here, that the news journalists were keying on, was the suprising or unconventional.
What could this mean? Are we secretly working with the Taliban and they are just going to turn the guy over? Are we gonna have a Navy Seal put a bullet in bin Laden's head on CNN? Are we going to torture the bastard until he renounces Allah? Are Afghan rebels rounding up the guy for us? Are Israeli Sepcial Forces going to move on Afghanistan? I have no idea.
Damm right. Specially when you can find out that this has occured some 2-3 mins after the 2nd plane hits. #CNN on Dalnet at one stage had 3000 users. Everyone pulling info from wherever they could, and letting everybody know. Big congrats to everyone who provided info in one way or another.
On the other hand, you have fingers
I think all terrorist organizations need to be taken out.
.357 and shot the bully.
If any government gets in the way, it should also be eliminated.
Then we work with other NATO allies to ensure that any future terrorist groups are treated the same way.
Or in your schoolyard terms:
The bully punched us.
We pulled out our
The world needs to be taught that all the civilized countries will no longer tolerate terrorism as an acceptable form of "protesting".
...there is still a slight difference between the criminal himself and someone helping a criminal - and criminal law fully recognizes that difference: the murderer gets the chair (at least in your civilized country, over here, he'll have to settle for lifelong imprisonment), the guy who hides him gets away with maybe a couple of years.
And, by the way, killing innocent people was acceptable in WW2 and should be equally acceptable now? Did it ever occur to you that that was propably exactly what those suicide pilots were thinking?
frotz grue
we don't allow carry on baggage? That would certainly take away the security checkpoints being a weak point in our airports.
Plus it would make boarding and getting off the plane SOOOOOO much faster and safer (no more shifting items in overhead compartments!).
Personally I think this is a great idea, but it could really begin to suck on a 15 hour flight where you have nothing to do but twiddle your thumbs or enjoy that horrible music selection on planes.
The answer to terrorism- find out who did it and who harbored them, and then destroy both. Not a missle into a factory, carpet bomb the whole area.
"Oh, you bombed our embassy? Say goodbye to your entire country."
Thanks for the input, Al Bundy.
There's your answer when it comes to terrorism- reply with more terror than a bomber can imagine.
The point of terrorism is to terrify the target. The news media is sure doing everything it can do to publicize the acts of terrorism and keep people freaked out, do you think we should give in? Innocent people being killed does not mean it's open season on brown people (though those days are shortly coming, no doubt). In response to the horror of killing so many innocent people, its ironic that people suggest the exact same in retribution. Let resentment rule!
I fear most of all the US reaction to this, because the US will experience the effects of this reaction for years to come. I can imagine the difficulty of these decisions when people are so shrill in their exhortations to quickly shape public opinion and to shoot from the hip.
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
Here is a list of world trade center resident businesses. An interesting read:
http://www.onisland.com/wtc/bizdir/index.html
-Sean
Good point; let's legalize murder, too. That way, people will realize that it's an empty gesture and just give up on it.
While this approach worked for civil rights in the US, is the proportional number of abuses and casualties acceptable? Perhaps, in the long run it would end terrorism, however, that end will be the generation of nations that follows ours, which would be buried as surely as Rome was sacked.
Another point. You would have the elected representatives of the United States defect against what seems to be the will of the people. This itself is an affront to civil liberty, a turn towards dictatorship.
There is no static response. Business as usual is an affront to the government by representation. The only solution would be for Americans to decide by majority that no retaliation was necessary - I'm not going to bother trying to guess the odds on that one.
Ground assault out of the question? I don't think so.
I know for damn sure I'd volunteer to go over and land on their shore(and yes, I am fucking dead serious about that, I can even bring my own guns).
Heavy losses to our troops?
When the body count in New York is done I'd guess this "war" will have already claimed 10k+ lives.
It's too late to not have heavy losses.
If Pakistan objects, I'm sure we can divert the troops to their shores first.
I think an important thing to note here is that this article was written nearly 30 years ago. The facts that you accurately pointed out as false were very true when this article was written.
I can't spell or type, but that doesn't mean I'm unusually stupid.
The FAA wants to put cameras in the cockpits of all commerical airlines, but it is being faught by the pilots union. Thesse would only do black box records, but sat feeds would be too hard.
I have to ask myself what I would ask of those responsible for the events that have taken place.
Those who have lost loved ones have many questions.
They should be given the opportunity to pose these questions to those responsible, and receive answers.
This could take a very, very long time.
Hopefully, some insight could be derived from this procedure.
I have only thought about this for a short time, but it seems just.
eigenstates
It is now time to flip off your computer.
(disclaimer) From news sources (/disclaimer) I read that those in one jet were encouraged to phone loved ones to tell them they were going to die by flying into the White House. This plane then flew into the Pentagon instead. Hence raising the White House as a target was merely a distraction from the REAL target. I've heard nothing about Airforce One from any source and it sounds incredibly improbable. I think you've made a mistake.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
I guess you also perfer to drive a car where a computer takes over when you break the speed limit?
(Sorry for posting two replies, this one came to my mind just after I posted the first one.)
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
Just how many MILLIONS of dollars was raised by irish pubs, clubs chairty etc and sent to buy guns and explosives to kill british civilians
Do I hold all Americans responsible for this?
No of course not, I can lift mywself above such narrow minded bigotry
The Washington Post has two webpages showing a listing of all the businesses in the World Trade Center, sorted by name, but also showing which floor each business was on, both Tower 1 and Tower 2. Interesting to see the non-US companies listed there, but more grimly relevant for gauging survival probabilities of friends/acquaintances/loved ones.
--LP
Nuke them into the stone age indeed! I can tell 99% of /. readers flunked geography ... too much Nintendo is my guess.
s t/ afghanistan/afghanistan.htm
...
... well ... that is a rant for another day.
./ readers seem to fit into based on their lack of knowledge of geopolitics and history, is a tool. Who is going to wield this double edged blade?
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mapshells/middle_ea
Look at the map. What do you see? Afghanistan is bordered by
Pakistan - muslim, nuclear, and already functionally at war with India. I'd love to hear their view on fallout hitting Islambad.
Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan - all muslim, potentially some loose nukes from USSR days, and a variety of conflicts simmer here.
Iran - our old friends from the 1980s. Do you think they've stopped working on nuclear capabilities with Saddam right next door? Not!
And a little tip of Afghanistan is close to India and China. Both nuclear powers, both likely to take an extremely dim view of fallout in their territory, and China
Look at the leader of this business. Ossama bin Laden, age 44, Saudi exile, veteran of the Soviet/Afghan war. You think you'll scare this guy rattling the nuclear sabres?
The Russians spent ten years trying to prop up a corrupt regime that was just close enough to Marxist doctrine for them to want to get involved. They poured everything they had but nukes into Afghanistan for a decade and all they got back was body bags.
The real income in Saudi Arabia has dropped from about $28k a decade ago to $7k now. You have a corrupt, top heavy government and a whole lot of disaffected people. How many of them *like* what Ossama has to say about the source of their pain? Want to find out? Just budget $6/gallon for gasoline before you engage in that experiment.
What about Israel and the Palestinians? Why does the whole arab world view anything the west gets involved in as being tied to that long running dispute?
In the eyes of muslim fundamentalists the Israeli state is an extension of the Frankish kingdom the crusaders founded. From 1095 to 1270, under the 'peace of god', Chistendom periodically shipped its young & restless off to the middle east to recover the holy land from 'infidels'.
Go and read some of Ossama's writings. He speaks constantly of the removal of 'infidels' from the land of the two cities (Saudi Arabia, Mecca & Medina respectively). Its a 900 year old battle and if one of his followers die the go straight to heaven. If they're injured and make it home they get to use the express lane on their way to the promised land. They really believe it. Sit down, quiet your mind, and imagine being ready to die to get the job done.
See the blame being shifted towards Iraq? Saddam would love something to distract his suffering people from the troubles at home - another crack at the US would be just the thing and OBL's hosts obviously don't want any special lovin' in the form of ALCM-Bs dropping onto their power grid.
The anger of clueless Amerika, a class nearly all
I pray I am not the only one that has read Misha Glenny's marvelous book on the Balkans. Learn about what happens when regional powers disintegrate before you counsel rash action.
I hope George Bush is looking for a quick, painless(for us), symbolic vent and budget dollars for that nasty ol' spying business.
Our existing infrastructure is meant to track soviet tanks and trucks moving in from the east. Military intelligence is a questionable phrase at best, ours has towering strengths in areas but its blindness in others is an obvious embarrasment to critical thinkers - look at the thousands of US citizens that had to die to make that apparent.
Dunno 'bout ya'll, but I am buying Raytheon as soon as the markets open.
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
Thank you for interjecting a little reality into this moron's "give peace a chance" crap.
I'm sure he'd find it kind of hard to turn a blind eye to terrorism if he lived in your apartment complex.
I believe that passenger safety is the #1 concern of the flight crew. Passenger safety should no longer be the #1 concern of the flight crew. The #1 concern of the flight crew should be maintaining control of the airplane, even if it means sacrificing the plane, crew and passengers. Up until now, going along with a hijacker's demands seemed to be the best policy to minimize the loss of life. We no this is no longer the case.
Higher bigger flight attendants maybe? Drop the maximum weight limit. A 100 pound flight attendant is not going to stop anybody.
We also do not know what weapons were used in the hijacking. The reports of plastic knives and box cutters are not reliable.
Muslim boy: "Ma, you know that stinking Osama Bin-Ladin is hiding somewhere in our beautiful country since that awful terror attack in the US, right?"
Muslin mom: "Yes my son, why?"
Muslim boy: "Well, I just intercepted some secure CIA communication channel. Seems like there are a bunch of MIG 29 coming in shortly to nuke our village."
Muslim mom: "Ok, let me just get the chopper up and going. Tell your brother Mustafa we're leaving in five minutes."
Muslim boy: "Sure. Should I tell the Mohammuds and the Achmeds too before we leave?"
Muslim mom: "Naah.. no time. But nevermind them, if they are stupid enough sitting on their porch in the middle of a war zone they have themselves to blame. Sheesh"
Seriously though, that was probably the most clueless comment yet.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
Obviously since he was a terrorist, we should carpet bomb McVeighs homeland to 'teach them a lesson'.. Oh.. Wait..
We will be attacked because we are big.
We will be attacked because we are tolerant.
Get used to it. We have meddled in the past and been attacked. We have tried not to meddle (isolationism) and saw the world blow up in our faces, we were attacked there as well.
We need not start any war. We will committ to finishing that which has been started.
This is not a case of right, wrong or moral high ground. This is a case of simple economics. The cost to attack the institution we call the US, to kill US citizens should and will be dear. What we do next may not be right. It needs to be final.
In the world of Fox News and a big red "ATTACK ON AMERICA" branded on every other channel, Its good to know some people still think straight. Thank you.
If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.
A fellow on the same newsgroup mentionned this:
Subject: The Truth on Xinoehpoel
Xinoehpoel - spelled backwards is Leo Phoenix - an infamous Usenet
sock puppet and troll... He has a long established history of bull****
on Usenet.
The address - tesnal@psl.moc is not a real domain. Reversal gives you
lanset@lsp.com, a known bogus addy for Leo Phoenix although it is a
real domain name. As a sock puppet - Leo Phoenix is all the time
coming off the wall with crap like that and is a constant source of
amusement. The timing was way off and his foolish attempts to try and
connect his BS from Aug 30 to todays events is absurd.
Maybe Israel will reconsider its policy in the Middle-East. Maybe they'll allow a Palestinian state to be created. Maybe they'll reconsider a policy of targeted elimination that has been creating martyrs and orphans willing to die by the truckload.
Or maybe they'll decide to solve the Palestinian problem the way the early Americans solved the Ameridian problem.
Maybe we'll all get along together some day.
Maybe.
Meanwhile, we'll need to secure our airports. It means that we'll need to prevent weapons from being smuggled on-board and be used by terrorists.
Now, I have read reports saying that the terrorists threatened pilots with knives. It seems a pretty unreliable means to curb pilots and attendants into submission. Assume the knife reports are true. It is then likely that the terrorists threatened only one person at a time and prevented the other flight personnels to attack them by pretending they would detonate explosives.
So Western airports still need to insure that firearms and explosives cannot be sneaked into planes. That's very hard with current X-Ray and magnetic detection technology.
Handguns made mostly out of non-metallic synthetic materials are now available (I checked the Heckler und Koch web site but couldn't find a link to their rumored plastic HK-9). The only metallic part is the recoil spring. Even bullets can be made of hard plastic and still be lethal even if they have no great penetration power.
But the one thing that cannot be replaced is the nitrogen-based propulsive powder in the cartridges. The same is true for explosives: barring exotic, unstable compounds, all military and construction explosives use nitrogen-based molecules. The three bondings of nitrogen release a high energy when broken and are the staple of explosives.
That's where detection methods offer hope. Various technologies (neutrography and variants of MRI) could be used to build machines that detect 100% of known explosives in all luggage, as well as explosives and ammo carried or swallowed by passengers.
The real problems would be the following:
If the answer to a single one of these question is no, then forget all pretense of ever securing airports. Be ready to install anti-aircraft batteries around each city and accept the occasional accidental shooting of a misguided aircraft...
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
The full support of the population will be behind the invasion.
I can assure you that with that kind of backing this won't turn into a Vietnam.
If this was a game of Civ, that might be what I would do.
This isn't a game of Civ.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
OK, fine, I don't like the idea of cameras watching me at all times either. But i'm talking about airliners and airports, places where security is important. When you walk from the parking lot(click!) to the airport concourse(click!) to the gate(click!) you can bet you've been on several cameras already. Big Brother scares the hell outta me, but not when i'm at 10,000 feet.
"America, I smoke marijuana every chance I get."
the discussions on these pages has been eye opening. i hope that if anything i have learned to trust even less the american media and the actions of our government. from responses of anonymous cowards (no disrespect intended) to my own searches for information, i compiled this short list of links detailing some of the things our government does which gets VERY little attention by our media.
the effects of the iraqi embargo
two page bio of bin Laden from pbs.org
one discussion thread on this page discussing increasing American globalization
another thread on this page discussing US export of arms
please note i in no way whatsoever condone these attacks or terrorist acts of any kind. i just hope americans can wake up to the wool over their eyes when in comes to our foreign policies.
-sam
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
Anyone who hosts a terrorist is and should be counted as guilty as they are.
Step carefully, measure twice, strike once.
extremist attacks america? How about the people in Iraq, who's being bombed everyday by the Americans? who started the vietnam war and sent troops there killing thousands of people? there to How about the Palestinians who were suppressed and killed by the US supported Isreali troops? adding up all three above, deaths could be up to millions(compare to only thousands in the twin tower). The government of america is the real terrorist. american lifes is not expensiver, palestinian's life worth the same price, the iraq innocent civilian's life worth the same price. Violence is violence. You can't isolate one without paying attention to another. That the Americans are being killed now has a reason, which we all can see, know, and understand. By the way, many TV channel says this is an attack upon american, I think it is not it is a revenge for the americans( especially the government) killing millions of palestinian people by supporting the isreal, selling weapon to them so that they can drive F16s and other america tanks in to palestine towns and kill civilians? let's think backward, if you are an palestinan, are you going to just let it happened? And now George Bush is saying they will revenge.. What sort of revenge will not bring back further violence? America is strong, but merely by military power, you can't solve any real problems. You kill more Arabs, and their offsprings will kill you- probably not immediately, but some time, somehow, the karma will turn back onto your temple. americans can stop further palestinian revenges by stop selling Isrealist. The US government is only pointing at the terrorist for responsibility, and are not sorry for the killing for the palestines. This is how as many people from other countries think about this attack or revenge.
I just an email at work about tomorrow officially being "US Pride Day", because of the attacks. Of course it asked me to forward it to everybody I know to spread the word.
It's sad how low spammers will sink.
I think the spammer who initiated this should make up for it by giving blood. 8 pints should do it...
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. [Emphasis mine]
What this says is that the members of NATO agree to do whatever they want. The real meaning of Article V is in the second paragraph:
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security (1). [Emphasis mine]
The point of Article V is not mutual defense, it is disclosure of actions and the termination of activity once the Security Council says so.
Article V is not about standing up for each other. It's a safety measure to make sure no member of NATO obliterates an enemy. It's to keep NATO functioning militarily as a unit, to prevent drawn out international conflict.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Found picture of prposed new WTC over on Scripting News. Like the man says, it's very New York.
It's interesting to note that the Spiderman movie site has a "will return soon..." message and that quicktime, who housed the trailer, has pulled it. The climax of the trailer was a shot of a helicopter full of bank robbers caught in a giant web between the two towers of the WTC.
Please donate. It'll increase your stake in this mess.
-- New findging: Early paste eaters 42% less likely to divorce.
I think you're mistaken. Terrorism is not "to cause change" and these attacks were not designed to cause the US to retaliate.
These people's lives are based on hatred. The purpose of the attacks is simply to hurt people; specifically, to hurt Americans. We have no choice but to destroy such minds. Left alive they will continue to act the same way no matter what our reaction is. That's why it's flawed to ask what the US should be doing differently to demotivate these people. That's like suggesting that there is something a black man could do to avoid the KKK. These terrorists live for hatred, and there is nothing that will change that.
I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
This link at the Washington Post relates the story of two people on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania conveying to loved ones that they intended to try and overpower the hijackers before they were able to carry out their plans. If these people even tried what they were talking about, even if it wasn't the cause of the apparently pre-mature crash, IMHO they are true heros.
Understanding is a three edged sword. - Ambassador Kosh Naranek, Babylon 5
Just saw on the news that the FBI has traced two of the suspected terrorists to Florida, where they recevied rudimentary flight training. It was said the two men kept to themselves except for last Friday night, where they had an altercation with a bar owner. It seems these Islamic-fundamentalist radicals had run up a huge bar bill and refused to pay. When the manager confronted them with "Look, if you just tell me that there is some problem where you can't pay, just let me know and we can work it out". One of them responded, apparently very insulted, with "I can pay, I'm an airline pilot".
It seems our 'principled' terrorists have no problem with killing thousands of innocent civilians in the name of their faith, but can't seem to avoid alcohol, which, if I'm not mistaken, is forbidden by the Koran. Hypocrite cowards.
All the Pilot has to to is open the valve and everyone is going to be teather to the air masks. And the O2 generators are only good for a few minutes to get the plane down below 10K ft. If the pilot stays high every ony is going to go to sleep very quickly. I assume that the pilots have larger O2 bottles?
I'm not very technical when it comes to these things. Why are sat feeds hard? It's not like it's a problem if it's not a continual feed, in my opinion. I can understand the pilot's union's concern, though. Maybe it can be a thing that the pilot(or stewards) can turn on during an emergency..
"America, I smoke marijuana every chance I get."
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.
And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
Writers imply. Readers infer.
It is your arrogance that assumes that death has not been presented to me in the same way that you are facing. I have faced death, in ways I hope you can only ever imagine.
Attack me personally, if you wish - but ignore the understanding of the world that lays behind my commentary at your own peril.
I can understand you're upset. You've never had to deal with something like this before, in the safety and comfort of your metropolis. I'm sure your daily runs to Starbucks will resume, once it's all cleaned up for you. Perhaps, over the next cup o' bean, you'll give pause to think about just what sort of charade it is you're living, and what it takes to keep it there.
You think you're the first person on the planet to have to walk across body parts to get to sanctity? What, exactly, do you think the American war machine produces, exactly?
Fried chicken?
Its denizens must realize that the way of life outside the gates of The New Babylon is a *very* different way indeed. A very different way.
Mark my words, America is the New Babylon, and its towers are falling
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I can't help but think that if the guns had such a "key", the terrorist would merely whack the necessary digit(s) off the pilot's hand...
Except that I heard on NPR today - new FAA regs will disallow any knives, including steak knives in First Class. Previously, one could have knive(s) with blade(s) up to 4 inches checked in carryon bags.
Probably won't stop 'em, though.
db
Cig:
ôô
I do really like this as an approach, but the way these things seem to work, here's how I read the response:
"The devils of the west are trying their best to seduce God's people from the true path. Those who succumb are heretics, and enemies of God."
Add a bit of infighting, and the U.S. looks more "evil" for it's "deviousness"
All of that aside, it'd be tough to convince investors that subsidizing the citizens of Iraq et al. is the way to go (never mind the problem of sending aid; Somalia is a good example of how foreign aid is distributed)
Killing terrorists in retaliation won't work - they've already demonstrated they're not
afraid of death - something that most
americans can not truly admit.
Excuse me? Won't work at what? If they're dead, they are not going to be bombing our cities. What else should I be concerned about?
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball
This is exactly why I can't stand Christians.
ubi dubium ibi libertas.
I humbly submit a link to a respectful and funny story about the resiliency of New Yorkers in the light of yesterday's tragedy.
http://www.ridiculopathy.com/news_detail.php?disp
We here at school have begun collecting images and video to help out with the bandwidth problem the news sites are having...
Here
Also feel free to send anything in...
ask the victors what happened..the dead have no voice. The victor makes the rules and writes the
popular history.
Your morality and compassion is wonderful and
admirable in the civilized world where the local
convenience store has more luxuries than the
average guerilla fighter will ever see. It is past time now for niceties and half measures:
all that have hostile intentions towards united
states citizens should be taught a hard, lethal
lesson: I am as willing to do unto others as they to do unto me.
sept 11?
Would it not help if airplane cockpits were heavily secured with locks and armour, and pilots were not allowed to leave the cockpit?
Amazon has a long history of privacy violations, spamming, and the like. These have been discussed here and elsewhere on the net, and I presume most of you know how to look things up and confirm this.
The Red Cross has its own donations page. Those who are concerned about their privacy and who would prefer not to be bothered with junk mail, email, etc. would be wise to avoid Amazon's scheme and instead donate directly to the Red Cross...
http://www.redcross.org/donate/donate.html
PS: Whoever created the original post should go back and remove the misleading wording and give links to the REAL Red Cross donation page.
Why not physically seperate the cockpit from the rest of the aircraft? Currently, regulations and company policy make it so that their should be a door between the cockpit and passenger cabin, and that door is normally locked. However, if the pilots had a seperate external entrance to the cockpit, it would make it pretty much impossible for the hijackers to threaten the pilots directly, or attempt to take over the controls.
Not to say this would prevent all hiijacks (you can still threaten the entire plane with a bomb or kill passengers to persuade the pilots), but it would prevent aircraft from being physically controlled by hijackers, and used as flying bombs.
Just a thought...
I was surprised at how much more serious our local airport (a small regional one) was about security the last time I was there. The were manually searching many (maybe 1 in 4) bags and even made me demonstrate that my cell phone worked. In the past they've always been pretty layed back.
--
Ray
I'll tell you what can be done about terrorism, JUST KILL THE TERRORISTS! These people would kill you if they had the chance, why not just bomb them before they do! I don't even care if they're civillians, they hate us! Every time I see one of them die, I can rest easier knowing that another potential terrorist was eliminated before he could do any damage.
There seems to be clear evidence that the middle east and parts of the culture that exist in that region are and will continue to be the breeding grounds for attacks such as these.
Its undoubtable in my mind that regardless of final judgment and due justice that a war has been declared on both sides. A war between a state and a regional gorilla organization. An organization that now has the knowledge of what is possible might up the ante. The victim of this will of course be our everyday life and the comfort of being able to move though this world without fear.
It is somewhat ironic that the wealth created in the Middle East regional which ultimately is the main source of funding for this/these organizations is mainly derive from the increasing demand for oil generated in its perceived target.
A war of bullets is likely only to create martas, merely pushing the next event of hate to a later time. It seems then that the best way to attack your attackers is to remove their strengths with your weaknesses.
An effort to removed the dependancy of the western world on oil would likely go long way to making these terror organizations impotent.
that said why not keep an armed guard in plainclothes on every plane. The cost per ticket wouldn't be much increased, whereas the safety would definitely increase. And I'm almost willing to bet most passengers (especially now) would be willing to pitch in an extra dollar for the safety precautions.
The sad news is the the spiritual kin of Amalek rise in every generation, and it is our responsiblity to destroy them.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
and the jihad member doesn't understand economics -- that they will pay the highest price possible. Their host country may.
Based on a lot of observing, conversations, & thinking since yesterday, I couldn't help but speculate on these disturbing perspectives:
all the hijackers -- feeling an air of invincibility about them, fearing nothing since they've reconciled their fates:
our brave actions will change the course of humanity forever.. our lives will be well spent in further realizing our worthy cause!
passengers at initial moment of hijacking:
oh my god.. oh my god.. i can't believe this is happening.. i'm going to be sick to my stomach.. oh my god..
scared passengers on both flights looking out windows, dawning on a terrifying realization:
they're not diverting us to another country? where are we going?! why are we flying so low?? no! no! no!!
office workers turning towards approaching jet engine noise:
OH S***!
pushed to the edge in desperation & panic.. some trapped people fall & jump from the towers:
better a quick death than being burned alive.. [stomachs clenched, eyes closed, overwhelmed by the effects of g-force and the tremendous rush of air]
hijackers in the 2nd plane, in visual range of target, given a morale boost:
look! our compatriots successfully carried out their attack! we must not fail in ours! let us gloriously complete this! [bank the wings 45 degrees for maximum structural damage spread..] no pain, no time for pain.. this will be over in the blink of an eye
executives and staff on top floors of both towers, who likely had numerous advantages in life going for them:
oh my god.. oh my god.. this can't be happening, it can't end like this! not now.. oh please god, let me get out of this alive..
various observers, remarking on further ramifications:
I wonder how much asbestos is in that air..
better load up on gas.. stock up on everything..
what's going to happen to my investments?
how can I profit from this? I wonder what plays I should make in the market when it reopens..
thanks to the criminal jerks of the world here comes the further erosion of our personal liberties.. from no longer being able to leave your bikes on your lawns and having not to lock up everything 20 years ago and being free to light fireworks in every city.. to ever-tightening gun control laws.. and now this.. this inevitable approach of the police state
the end times are closer than ever.. Revelations..
===
[Finally, I'd like to offer my own analysis on this event.]
In the big picture this is just another evolution in human society. Two forces collide, neither willing to back down. This will escalate in fits and starts until an equilibrium point is established through a war of attrition, and even before then humanity will characteristically be well into its next point of conflict.
Repeat this process until a workable common ground is roughly pounded out for all, at least until evolutionary drifts once again create too much disparity for peace to bear.
History/Evolution is an enormously multi-factored process. No individual or mere group of individuals can bear 100% of whatever is to be blamed. Every individual automatically tries their personal best within the seen & unseen boundaries of their circumstances, contributing to matching societal forces accordingly. If we wish to effect change for the better, we are already doing it, or else our circumstances do not permit us to.
Huh? Why not, say, a letter opener?
If Dirty Harry had been on each of those planes, the outcome would have been quite different.
Dirty Harry = dead hijackers (and maybe a few dead passengers too...and maybe a few depressurized planes too...)
I hope that whatever revenge we exact towards this attack, is executed with the same amount of footage we've seen these last couple of days. I want 20 camera angles of everything, and none of the tepid Desert-Storm radar views of bomb-dropping we recall from the past.
When America reacts, the whole world will be watching.
Yeah, by planning to do absolutly nothing, you have immediatly done exactly what you planned to do. Sounds stupid to me. If you get stung by a bee, do you just let it sit there, no you slap the hell out of it. If you get stung by 10 bee's, you get to a safe place, and then come back and destroy all the bee's and the nests in the area. Sure, some will come back, it is inevitable, but it keeps them from building up. We cannot just ignore the problem and keep getting stung!
If it won't boot, Fsck it!
In light of the horrific events of September 11, 2001, the World has to change, and it falls to the United States to be the instrument of that change.
With the fall of the Soviet Union, the most immediate and powerful threat to western interests and ideals, America had expected the world to become a safer and saner place. This regrettably is not the case. The irrational acts of fanatical, misguided, and just plain evil men, show that we cannot just leave the world to sort out its problems for itself. I had once been one to criticize the U.S. in the past for its tendency toward unilateral action on the world stage, but it now seems the world stage is a farce and a facade. The U.N. has been hijacked by angry, petty nations who are too myopic to see all their fundamental problems stem from denial of basic freedoms to their people. Name one truly democratic nation with a free press that feels oppressed by the other democratic nations of the world. I surely can't. The oppression perceived by undemocratic nations and the people that live in them is an imaginary construct. The control of information within these societies in effect creates a brainwashed populace, all too eager to blame external forces for their plight, rather than place the blame where deserved, their own cynical, self serving leadership.
Does the United States or some other democratic nation ever exploit or take advantage of countries less blessed with wealth and freedom? Yes. Does this make democracy or freedom evil? No. Such exploitation would not occur if the nations that perceived this abuse were fair brokers themselves. If you want true free trade with the civilized world, this includes the free trade of information and ideas. Enough carping, complaining and finger pointing about injustices of the past. Look within the borders of those doing the finger pointing. How could you not recognize that half their population, the female half, are not just second class citizens, but slaves? Their legal justice systems a joke. Torture and murder common and condoned for ancient and petty reasons. Fanaticism exalted and idealized.
There is a politically correct notion that all cultures are unique, and therefor need to be preserved in present form. I say there are cultures that suffer a cancer of intolerance and oppression. It is not intolerance and oppression to excise these elements from nations, societies and cultures, that have demonstrated they cannot do so for themselves, and to place within these states, institutions to ensure the rights of their citizenry. Look to Japan if you think this cannot be done.
America has again and again expressed exasperation at the lack of restraint other countries have exercised in dealing with external and terrorist threats. Our own restraint has bought us nothing. Certainly not the respect of those who see our restraint as weakness.
While our actions must be just, they must also to an extent be preemptive. Criminal and terrorist elements must not be allowed to consolidate power, wealth and influence. Once we have dispatched those who have quickly brought us harm, we must turn our eyes to those that slowly suck the soul of our nation, and corrupt the nations they operate from. I speak of course of the drug trade. Whether you favor the decriminalization of drugs or not, there is no reason to allow those who break our laws and violate our borders to evade consequences, while we at the same time incarcerate our own citizens who are in effect their victims. This network of crime, corruption and influence no doubt further diminishes our stature in the eyes of those that would do us harm, and emboldens them by our inability to deal certain justice to this undeniably evil and strictly self serving cabal of dealers in human misery.
As Pearl Harbor was a call to action in 1941, the current action of these terrorists is the same. To those that say these circumstances are different, the world more complex, the evil more hidden, I say do not look for shades of gray where there are none. While we may not know for certain all individuals involved, and the exact involvement of each individual, we know, or will know shortly with great certainty, the major players involved. And unlike their operatives who lash out at total innocents, we can and should surgically remove them like the cancer they are.
Unlike the `50s, `60s and `70s super powers' brinkmanship, there remains no reason to support the regimes of nations that fall short of realizing democratic ideals. Notice should be served to one and all, friend and foe, that only those nations who struggle to advance the freedoms and well being of their populations will be considered allies.
If America has fallen short in any of its ideals, now is a time to recapture their true essence: the responsible, fair and just wielding of power and influence to improve the condition of humanity as a whole. Implicit in this, the assumption that the condition of humanity is diminished by allowing evil, wherever it is, to flourish.
To those that hate America, I say you engage in a form of self hatred, as America is a mirror of the world. Its diverse citizenry, all of whom have a democratic say in its actions, include those who share your race, your religion, your culture. America will include their outrage, their sense of betrayal, in its retaliation for transgressions transcendent.
Letter To Iran
Nope, terrorism will exist as long as terrorists can convince themselves that it will be effective.These people aren't necessarily rational.
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
Could we please stop posting top-level articles with non-technological news updates? All the major news sites are no longer flooded, so there's no more need.
--
The reality of Afghanistan is that its people have a fearsome reputation for beating back massive organised armies. Even before they managed to drive the Russian army out, in the 1800's and early 1900's they beat several large British armies.
Quite simply, these people's have known nothing but war for hundred's of years and are not afraid to die for their beliefs and their country. You may be able to take the cities quite easily but what happens when day after day hundreds of american troops are killed in action? This is what happened to the soviets, hundreds of little skirmishes made the army pull out to stop the draining dry of its army.
And of course if you invade Afghanistan you're going to get every stupid fanatic with a grudge joining them in driving out the invaders. The Russians probably wont have to worry about the Chechyen rebels because they will be fighting alongside the Taliban.
I'm not going to compare this to Vietnam, the US army performed well in that war, what I do warn is not to expect some Desert Storm style conflict. You will lose TENS OF THOUSANDS of soldiers if you invade Afghanistan as well as cause the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians.
Is revenge worth that?
Jon
To those who think this is an isolated incident, let me point out that this enormous tragedy is only one attempt to disrupt, destroy, and devalue American lives. You are of course not hearing about the ninety-nine others in the past several years which failed.
The fact that this hasn't happened until now is due in large part to the tireless and heroic actions of the same government agencies -- military, Federal, state, and local -- that some of you ./ers love to deride, slander, and vilify without any firsthand knowledge whatsoever. (I encourage you to infer the obvious from the last few words.) These are the people who were the first to the sites when the attacks happened, the people who were crushed as the towers came down, those who went to work in a still-burning building because they knew that not to do so was allowing terrorist factions an unearned victory.
Returning to normal life shows that we will not be cowed by cowardly attacks on innocent civilians. It just so happens that by simply returning to their normal lives, these people are trying to keep us safe from the next attack... tomorrow, next week, next month, next year.
Please remember that before you hit your next "Submit" button.
Thanks for the story, now it's clear why the Pittsburg plane crashed...and some more info on the actual occurences...
and here's a nontracked and clickable link
Today is a sad day in history, very, very sad.
Primarily due to the fact that many innocent people were wrongfully killed but also because even after such a catastrophe many people including politicians in positions of power can't see past the dust in Manhattan NY.
Loss of life is a terrible thing (the most terrible thing anyone can imagine) and yet many have put money and greed in front of human life. Worse, human life is measured differently around the world - specifically: 1 Israeli life is worth at least 10 Palestinian lives, 1 Iraqi life is worth 40 American lives, and so on.
Why is it so difficult for people to see the damage that has been caused by greed all over the world, and try to resolve it. Albeit, there will always be rich and poor, when the gap widens enough revolutions will errupt (that has been proven in history many times).
There will always be rich and poor, but there is no reason for millions to be dying of starvation in Africa because people in North America want to drive there cars (that require fuel).
I am no way saying that the attack on the US was a good idea, but at the same time, attacks on Iraq, the Palestinians, the Kurds, the Yugoslavs etc... are just as bad.
Destroying people's homes and sources of food and water *is* tantamount to mass murder...just the slow way. It's not like they can just drive to Canada.
Besides, what gives us any right to destroy innocent people's property?
I have been reading a lot of comments from Slashdotters about how the American Mainstream Media doesn't report all of the facts, doesn't tell the whole truth, and doesn't let us know the real story about what is happening from all of this.
Are there any suggestions about where to look for accurate reporting about these incidents and the events surrounding the attack (i.e. the history of bin Laden and the CIA and reasons these fanatics would attack us)?
I know about the BBC but thats pretty much the only other place I can think of to look for news - besides other "mainstream" news agencies. I would like to hear about both foreign and domestic sources. Lets hear everybody's opinion on this.
At least not to where it passes my comment threshold, so I'll post a bit here.
a rt =20&hl=en&rnum=23&selm=3b9ea07d%40news.vogel.pl
Someone posting in usenet newsgroup alt.prophecies.nostradamus some, well, seemingly informed messages, concerning the events of yesterday, these postings coming days in advance of the event, see this link:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Xinoehpoel&st
I'm sure the proper authorities are aware of this, as someone has posted they forwarded this information to said authorities.
I don't want to comment on the typical traffic this particular newsgroup would see on a typical day outside of this tragedy, but these particular postings, while vague, do seem to be either somewhat informed or extremely cooincidental. It raises the question of how much could've been known or exposed via the internet before and after such events take place...
Let's positively identify the bastards who did this and demand that the harboring country rebuild the towers which will, of course, seriously financially burdon them.
If they refuse, we occupy their country and forcibly take the appropriat resources and labor to accomplish the task.
Oh yeah, we exterminate anyone or any groups we uncover as having connection. This includes foreign governments.
Why is it that all accusations towards Bin Laden are (fairly) disputed by many, yet there are eqaully many undisputed posts that essentially "claim responsibilty" by defending the arab states and our treatment of that area etc. etc.?
mod this post up you fucking panzies!
Ground control of the control surfaces directly would be horrible... but what about ground control that only dictates the 'strategy' and leaves the autopilot to decide how to follow orders? Or about an authentication system that requires a password from the ground to override the flight plan in any major particular? Really pretty trivial....
you stated "And i have another interesting point to make, i am originally from bosnia (now a u.s citizen), and there for four long years, serbian army tortured and killed a couple of million civilians (children, formed concentrations camps, the whole nine yards), all in the name of christ and holy christian faith. Yet, I know not to hate christians. The actions of a proportionatelly small group do not represent the actions of majority." My jaw practically drops at the seemingly large amount of "openminded" people here that can't remember this one simple lesson. Apparently the bloodlust has taken over for many of them.
I truly believe that by the time this is all over you will see Bill contributing a huge quantity of cash to the cause. Say what you want about his business practice and the evil empire he has created, he truly is a philanthropist(sp?) and willing to give money when needed.
The fast-food restaurants in the same airport pay workers $7 an hour to start.
Perhaps this says something about our priorities?
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
Presuming guerilla warfare and terrorism have something in common.
NASA has put some photos of the smoke plume on their website.
They can be seen at http://www.nasa.gov/newsinfo/WTCplume.html. Very interesting!
"The answer to terrorism- find out who did it and who harbored them, and then destroy both. Not a missle into a factory, carpet bomb the whole area. "
A scorched Earth policy obviously doesn't work in this situation, you might as well hand out box knives to every child in the Middle East. Assuming this is bin Laden, you deliver an ultimatum and deadline for turning him over. Give them a few weeks to comply while we mobilize and prepare. If they hand him over, we do the same thing with Osama that we did with McVeigh: try him, convict him, and execute him like a common criminal, NOT A *MILITARY* TARGET! That would be more unbearable to him than any physical torture you can possibly think of.
If they don't hand him over, that's when we start invading people....and remember you *ALWAYS* treat your enemy the way we treated Japan after WWII: you help them rebuild so that they don't grow up wanting to kill you.
In fact such a peace treaty is simply impossible. The Palestinians will never compromise on their demand for the right of return for the Palestinian refugees created in past wars. That demand is what sunk any hope of a deal even with Barak, who was willing to compromise on just about everything else. On the other hand, Israel can never accept such a demand, because to give in would mean instant demographic suicide, the end of Israel's being a Jewish state. (As it is, within 20 years Israel might have more Palestinians than Jews.)
What seems inevitable is that Israel will decide to create even more Palestinian refugees in a desperate effort to physically partition the nation with a defensible perimeter. On that day the other Middle Eastern nations will have to decide whether or not to start an all-out, possible nuclear, war with Israel. I'm not sure how US disengagement from the Arab governments surrounding Israel would help to prevent this war.
The public wants blood, that has been made clear to me on many fronts (http://elcochino6.tripod.com/laden.htm). The attitude I have seen pervade is that of righteous outrage - and a powerful drive to even the score at minimum. The general feeling I get from watching all newsfeeds, and most of the other outlets I am keeping an eye on, is that all eyes are looking at what actions will be taken to retaliate. There is comparatively little media coverage of the situations leading up to this, and that is a grave mistake. The people that pulled this off were obviously motivated to take these measures, and I don't think that millitary action is going to dissuade them. If anything it will strengthen their resolve.
"One must have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."
This from the Cruel Site of the Day: Eric Darton, author of the World Trade Center history Divided We Stand, in an interview last year: "One great irony of the towers is that they were built to withstand a 747 slamming into them -- the disaster scenario of a more 'innocent' era. No one in the mid-'60s, when the buildings were designed, could have anticipated that thirty years later the threat would not come from a stray airplane -- a symbol of the machine age gone awry -- but from modernity's discontents: terrorists who knew the building's true vulnerability was in its basement."
I've been learning to fly general-aviation aircraft (Cessna 172R/S "Skyhawk") and recently ended up sitting next to a female United pilot who was deadheading on a flight into JFK. We got to talking and she tried quite earnestly to convince me that flying a 757 (what she does) is pretty much just like flying a Skyhawk. I was skeptical but it made for a fun conversation :-)
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
that';s the kinda crap that makes people do such things in the first place..
Like it or not, US "acts of aggression" are largly responsible for building the country you live in. You use gas, right? Imagine $5/gal permenantly. Food, close, electronics, everything we have is a result of "US extortion." It may be cold, but most of us aren't willing to give that up.
If you don't have a balcony you can hang a flag from, I have designed a version that fits into an AIM profile. Just look at the profile for SyracuseWolvrine and copy the flag.
(note: I realize this is not a perfect copy of a US flag, but it's the thought that counts.)
-
Is anyone else creeped out by Andrea Thompson (aka Talia Winters) giving CNN updates? I mean, I always knew the PsyCorps would eventually take over our news media, but it seems they've stepped up their timetable...
She even asked a terrorism expert whether we would be giving up personal liberties for security. Creeeeeeepy.
This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
I walked by a church last night, and I heard music playing and singing. I heard cheering, I thought they were watching old "Diff'rent Strokes" re-runs on Nick at Nite, but it turns out that the pastor was giving a rousing sermon about how we should stick together and not give in to terrorist attempts to demoralize us.
Tell me, who are you to say what they were doing?
Idiot.
The system has failed you, don't fail yourself. --Billy Bragg
Progress is not measured in bodies at the end of the conflict but the people alive you can (in a generation) regret together what caused you kill each other in the first place.
Someone already quoted this numerous times but "An eye for an eye scaled to the whole world would leave the whole world blind" Ghandi paraphrased
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Either plainclothes or uniformed. I believe they did this for a while during the "skyjacking" crisis of the early 1970s, before airport security was established.
sulli
RTFJ.
Straight on. After I calmed down, I realized that not only is blaming all Arabs for this racist, but the terrorists committed an inherently racist act. I can only assume that their attitude is/was "All Americans are evil devils, and deserve to die." This is a generalization, and a racist one to boot.
I, for one, have become more and more disapproving of Isreal's behavior over the past few months. If they and the Palestinians have gotten us into a war because of their personal squabbles, I'd plainly support turning the area into a DMZ. Obviously the Palestinians and the Israelis can't keep off each other's backs by themselves... If this horror is a result of that, I guess somebody's gonna have to do it for them.
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
The *entire* NATO doctrine (well, apparently Article 5) is that an attack on one is an attack on all.
A NATO member has been *viciously* attacked.
During many crises, America has been there for it's allies.
We're there for you now. Whatever you need, you can have it.
Why do we need a *meeting* to discuss what we have always promised?
You have never let us down. We won't let you down. Ever.
(signed)
A UK Citizen, who grieves with you.
Rather than issue guns with smart ID technology,
just put that ID reader directly on the controls
of the airplane. Of course there are issues to
work out (such as the "pilot has a heart attack,
stewardess makes emergency landing" scenario).
I know that this will be swamped by many other replies, but I hope some one who keeps Slashdot up and running reads this. Thank you so very much for working so hard to act as a conduit for info, and for keeping us informed. I first found out about the tragedy on Slashdot, and most of the major developments I found out about on Slashdot first. You've done us all a great service, and I just wanted to express my thanks.
Brook
Even if by some miracle you killed only those involved in the attacks, you'd still leave behind brothers, sons and friends who are now pushed closer to the terrorist thinking.
Much like the 'war on drugs', this 'war' is a rhetorical construct.
And that's just as well. With no defined enemeny, no understanding of its motives or objectives, and no idea where to strike back, this is a war we are bound to lose.
Do us a favor and put your head back in your ass.
- Have civil engineering knowledge to know how the building was constructed and how to bring it down. It wasn't the impact, as the buildings remained up after the collision - it was the massive fire weakening the structural steel along the load bearing walls. Besides, many people would assume that you would need to weaken the base of the tower to bring it down - how many people even knew it was possible to destroy a building by flying a plane into it?
- Know what planes to pick. All the planes were long flights and had full fuel tanks, creating the massive fire, in addition to the initial impact.
- Know how to get by security in order to hijack the planes
- Know how to fly these planes, as the crews were most likely killed immediately.
- Necessary co-ordination, training, etc, in order to hijack *4* planes
As well, one report indicated the radar transponders were disabled, making it harder for ground control to figure out what was happening.I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
extremist attacks america? How about the people in Iraq, who's being bombed everyday by the Americans?
They support a maniac. They've had the opportunity to get the fuck out or overthrow the military for 10 years, and they've decided to grin and bear it instead, and have even bought into the crazy doctrine that Saddam continues to preach. Get out of Iraq or stop your bitching, because the U.S. has awakened, and if you talk instead of running, expect to get blown the fuck up.
who started the vietnam war and sent troops there killing thousands of people?
We didn't kill nearly enough people. That's why we lost. Morality became an issue, and that always will lose wars, because wars are not moral. Nobody in America gives a flying fuck about morality right now, so you best get out of your country if you don't want to be a civilian casualty.
there to How about the Palestinians who were suppressed and killed by the US supported Isreali troops?
You think Israel is bad? The U.S. has had their eyes opened to what Israel has been trying to tell them for the past 20 years. If you didn't like US supported Israeli troops, you're going to HATE pissed off American troops who have lost family members and can take revenge by pressing a button, or using guns that fire around corners.
adding up all three above, deaths could be up to millions(compare to only thousands in the twin tower). The government of america is the real terrorist. american lifes is not expensiver, palestinian's life worth the same price, the iraq innocent civilian's life worth the same price. Violence is violence.
Keep on saying shit like that, and the U.S. might just waste the PLO after they're through with Afghanistan and Osama.
You can't isolate one without paying attention to another. That the Americans are being killed now has a reason, which we all can see, know, and understand. By the way, many TV channel says this is an attack upon american, I think it is not it is a revenge for the americans( especially the government) killing millions of palestinian people by supporting the isreal, selling weapon to them so that they can drive F16s and other america tanks in to palestine towns and kill civilians?
If that's the way that the majority of Palestine feels, then you have absolutely NO IDEA of how much more powerful the U.S. is than Israel. The Israelis were right, and your ideas only continue to support that fact. Attacking the U.S. will not improve your situation. It will make it 100 times worse, and you will see so yourself in less than a month (probably less than a week, but better safe than sorry).
let's think backward, if you are an palestinan, are you going to just let it happened? And now George Bush is saying they will revenge.. What sort of revenge will not bring back further violence?
The kind of revenge that the entire world supports. You don't kill 10,000 american citizens in the U.S.A. and claim you've made your statement. You kill 10,000 american citizens and the U.S. will kill 100,000 in response. Personally, I wish they would increase that to 1,000,000. If you retaliate again, then the U.S. will retaliate again, and will ALWAYS do more damage than you ever do to the U.S. ALWAYS.
America is strong, but merely by military power, you can't solve any real problems. You kill more Arabs, and their offsprings will kill you- probably not immediately, but some time, somehow, the karma will turn back onto your temple.
Wake up! There are many Arabs who LOVE living in the U.S. and we get along just fine. We have nothing against the Arab people. We have EVERYTHING against lunatics who try to kill Americans, no matter WHAT race they are. As for karma, you've already wasted yours, because many Arabs died in those buildings yesterday.
americans can stop further palestinian revenges by stop selling Isrealist. The US government is only pointing at the terrorist for responsibility, and are not sorry for the killing for the palestines. This is how as many people from other countries think about this attack or revenge.
STOP IT? Motherfucker, we haven't even STARTED yet! Stop worrying about Israel, because they are the least of your worries now. Oh yeah, you might also want to get those people who are cheering in the West Bank off the streets before the U.S. decides that they have been indoctrined by the government. At that point, you really won't have to worry about the U.S. selling weapons to anybody, because they'll be too busy using them.
NT I said
Make no mistake about the politics of the Middle East - if they weren't fighting Israel they would be fighting each other. The theocracies (Afghanistan) despise the monarchies. The autocracies (Iraq) despise the theocracies. None of these states has any respect for individual rights. Afghanistan recently forbid education for women.
Sure this sounds like race baiting, but it isn't. Arabs can live peacefully and respectfully, but it isn't going to happen while Islam is part of the ruling regime's rulebook.
At some point in the future the West is simply going to have to come to grips with a fact that many foreign policy thinkers have known for decades - democracies and Islamic regimes cannot coexist.
Earlier today, in an internal company question forum, the following question was posed to the "suits":
As result of the Sept. 11 incedent, will EarthLink be pressured or even forced to take on the Carnivore technology? Will EarthLink accept the technology for the sake of national security? If not, than will Earthlink take alternative actions of its own?
The answer came as:
We have alternative methods to Carnivore to comply with legal requests for information that will provide the information requested and not compromise all of our other customers' privacy.
If anyone remembers, Earthlink refused to install Carnivore in July (Slashdot article). On local news in Atlanta, the building housing Earthlink's data center was being shown in conjunction with the investigation, I didn't see the broadcast myself, so I don't know exactly what was said, but I am being told that Earthlink records are currently under investigation.
Rumors abound though, and I have even heard mentioned that one account in particluar was suspect, and that it had been closed earlier in the year for non-payment.
I'm not suprised to hear Earthlink's response to these privacy issues, if for no other reason then because of the ad slogans "You are not for sale" and "Advocate anonymity" all over Atlanta on huge orange billboards.
"One must have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."
No, not all the victims are Americans. But if they need the blood, if they need the help, if they need anything we can supply, they will get it, no matter what their nationality.
I'm sorry, but faced with a possible problem to the aircraft caused by someone defending my life, or having a hijacker take control and likely kill us all, I'd much rather take my risks with someone on my side!
We must broaden the air marshals pogram immediately.
Get off my launchpad!
Recent events have served as reminders that those who do not live in Washington or New York are still linked to and affected by them somehow.
Boston received its reminder in the form of several arrests at a local hotel, and a bomb scare that resulted in a portion of the city being closed by police.
People in the seemingly distant city of Portland, Maine have had to watch as the FBI searched through their city in search of leads.
Canadian cities were terrified by a KAL jet with an operating emergency transponder (which turned out to have been triggered by a low fuel warning.)
I have seen many people in the past couple of days who are deeply affected by this tragedy. I have seen many who simply don't seem to give a damn. I hope this serves as a reminder that *nobody* should be apathetic about these events - they affect us all.
Move 'sig'. For great justice!
The funny thing about nntp is that it doesn't get slashdotted. Too bad it's so old fashioned and out-of-date, huh? More about ClariNet itself: www.clarinet.com.
I was particularly interested in the story The four main radical islamic groups, which begins
movements -- two Palestinian, one pro-Iranian Lebanese group and a fourth created by the sought-after Saudi-born alleged terrorist Osama bin Laden.Getting say, 30 lunatics together might not be easy, but once you have them, this kind of thing wouldnt be too hard to plan.
US domestic flighst doesnt have that high security, and once you have a couple of knives aboard, not much is left but to crash the plane into your choice of building. Steering modern airplanes isnt that difficult, they wouldnt have needed the pilots for the last part, ie crashing into wtc.
And on the part of them having found arabian men in a van with a bomb and flightinstruction manuals just sounds like something from a bad actionmovie. It sounds like a bad framing of someone. Why in hell should they be driving around with flight instructions if they were to suicide bomb?
It just sounds too good to be true. The US had it coming, they have been acting like idiots in foreign affairs for a long time, there are many many groups around the world who dislike us fascist methods in other countries.
IF palestine terrorists did it, i can kindof understand them. The us supports isreal in its attacks against the palestine people. If one crazy guy blows up a bus in israel, they will respond by annihlating a village or two. Of course people will get mad when the "democratic" us supports this behaviour. It doesnt justify, but it explains it..
Bytw, sorry fpr spelling, im not very sober
First the crime occurred, then the FBI gets a warrant, and the warrant is looking for information on specific e-mail addresses.
This is the order that we slashdot civil libertarians prefer for sequences like this, no?
Monty Python's The Meaning of Life has the Grim Reaper claiming this:
Here in Perth, Western Australia, our annual charity Telethon regularly collects significantly more than is pledged. Western Australia sent firefighters East on ASh Wednesday. Australia sent many firefighters to the USA to help with the last lot of big fires. We even help people like Indonesia, who aren't exactly reknowned for returning the favour.
Yes, America is powerful and often helpful. But the arrogance in assuming that `we are the best in the world at XXX' for practically everything is one of the factors which allows the USA to continue to fiddle with the politics of other countries, and occasionally to inflict damage on them beside which WTC looks like an act of street vandalism. Pull your head in. All of you.
The other risk in being `the best' is that you stop trying to be the best (`I have arrived') and you stop checking that you're doing The Right Thing(tm) (`I can do no wrong').
For the record, Texas fits many times into Western Australia, the shire of Meekatharra is bigger than Texas, and so are several of our cattle stations. America may build big planes like C5A Starlifters, but Australia's Jindalee OTH radar can see them taking off and landing from here and Russia builds bigger helicopters than you. China can see your `stealth' planes OTH as well. For $Oz2M, Australia developed the HoveRoc, a missile which hovers and pretends to be a destroyer, and produced four of them. It was so good from Day One that the USA (in exercises) had to fly over and look to see which was the real destroyer! For $70M, the USA got one prototype tethered rocket to hover. And so on.
The USA is not the biggest, it is not the best, and it is not the most charitable. It is big, it is often good, and it is generous, and it is welcome to take a place among the nations on those terms. Just don't give everyone else this `best in the world' drivel.
PS: Gatorman, it's not you alone, you were just the last straw on this camel's back.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Please say you are joking because this is pathetic.
I recently did some video work in a court room - one thing we needed to do was cut several holes in the judges bench.
Surprise! it was line with grenade proof epoxy impregnate kevlar and man was that though stuff. This material took HOURS to cut through and with a re-enforce frame around the doors would make the cockpit a fortress.
Why can't we install 2 new bulkheads of this material, one between the cockpit and food prep area and one between the food prep area and cabin? This way if and when some one needed to enter/exit the cockpit the people in the cabin area could be locked out.
Cameras in the cabin area with display in the cockpit, why not?
Some where I remember hearing a pilot talk about getting everyone to sleep by lowering the cabin pressure. Why not have a system to lockout the emergency O2 and dump the cabin atmosphere untill everyones out, sure some will suffer but....
It's high time to call for an end to all religion. Atheists value human life most highly, no matter what christian/muslims/jews/ whatever say.
Don't forget that the belief that God doesn't exist is a belief held solely on faith, since it cannot be proven.
As an atheist, I believe that we've only got one shot at life, that placing our trust in any "power higher than ourselves" is idiotic. We make our own destiny.
As a Christian, I also believe that we've only got one shot at life on this Earth, whatever may lie ahead. Placing your trust in a higher power is idiotic for anyone who doesn't believe in the existance of a higher power, but for those of us who believe God is very real and has the ability to protect us, it's not such a bad idea.
We make our own destiny? Tell that to the people who were working in the WTC towers yesterday morning, or to the passengers and crew on the four hijacked planes.
DOWN WITH RELIGON! I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR IMAGINARY FRIENDS, ALLAH or JEHOVAH, NEITHER EXIST.
And I don't care that you don't believe in them. That is your right in this country, protected by the First Ammendment to the United States Constitution, and I fully support your right to believe what you want.
The terrorist's actions are all the worse, becuase they're fighting for an incredibly stupid cause - they misguidedly beleive (like many americans) in some "higher power".
We're not even sure who the terrorists are, let alone what their motivations were. Please don't jump to conclusions prematurely.
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Here is a story from salon: Terriorist made, not born
Amid his denial of involvement, and the cheering in Iraq, there is plausibility that Saddam used some more of our funding and training to think of one of the few attacks no one anticipated or planned for (because it is so unbelievable).
The best visual metaphor I can muster is from The Matrix when the two protagonists go to free Morphius, the dialogue between Neo and Trinity goes T: No one has tried anything like this before N: That's why it's going to work.
What is discussed around more than once is risk- there comes a point where the amount of resources devoted to reducing risk become too large.
There are a number of solutions to reducing risk, so that incidents like this are minimized. Prevention is not possible, in this case, because the cost of not flying is too high.
Here are some options for improving security in airports:
Well, I've run short on time. The suggestions are just an example of ways to reduce risk and the potential for danger.
Just wanted to comment that my heart goes out to the victims (all victims), peace be with all of us in the days and weeks to come.
Oh, by the way, the US also bankrolled the Muhajudin rebels that became the Taliban in Afghanistan.
what should the rest of the world to fascist america then?
Don't kill them. Make them kill each other.
I know it takes considerable efforts and wits, it is not impossible to stir up an internal conflicts within the terrorists or their countries.
Let their people know their god Allah does not approve such acts. Make them overthrow their own governments.
So how many people probably died during the terroism? A couple thousand, maybe? So what? 6000 die every DAY in this country. And 100,000 humans die every die on this planet.
Yes, this was a Bad Thing, but when it comes right down to it, Bin Laden's WTC& Pentagon shenanigans were nothing but a blip on the daily death-o-meter.
Forget about Bin Laden--he's a smalltimer. Let's go take on the Big Daddy of terrorist, Death himself.
Oh, wait. I forgot. I am dealing with primates, here. Forgive my logic....
Sig:
Navy nuke sub lifestyle?
You shouldn't really say that the Palistinians are anti-semitic, because they *are* semitic (i.e. come from the middle east), whereas most (not all) Israelis are European in origin.
Some of them may be anti-zionist or even anti-jewish, but not anti-semitic.
The best way to respond to the Middle Eastern despot states currently celebrating this obscenity would be to force a rapid move to alternative energy in the US and thus depress the value of oil as quickly as possible.
My employer is ERA Champion Realty, Inc., a Real Estate company based in Orange County, California with about three dozen employees.
Our manager has committed to donating $500 for each home sale made during the next 60 days. Counting the sales we already have scheduled to close this month, we are close to the $5000 mark.
Just wanted to let you all know that some of the smaller companies are pitching in too!
At one time in the broadcasts, it was believed that two AA flights had hit the WTC, and another was down at the pentagon and two united flights had also crashed, one in Somerset County PA. As it turned out the second united flight had been one of the WTC planes. The Colorado angle came from the use of the abbreviation for County, CO.
no big sig
Secretary of State Colin Powell says the coalition being formed will not stop at getting the people responsible for the attack, but will go after terrorists wherever they are found.
Start with these 30...
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
You are evil. There's no other word for you.
If it's evil (and it is) to kill a man, how much crueler is it to tell that man that he must simply stand there and be killed?
...the us government supports israel. The us government is selected by the us people )well, sort of anyways) and therefore many americans are to be blamed for the us foreign affairs.
As you could see in them targetting the pentagon, it hints at them being angry with us militaryofficials.
You are so wrong. To prove your point, here is the long list of United States Medal of Honor winners, most of which gave their lives in acts of extreme heroism to fight for our freedom.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htmTo reiterate:
Donate money
- Josh
NO, there is ample precident!!! The alternative is to suffer through the development of TOMBSTONE TECHNOLOGY.
It's been clear for some time now that it would only be a matter of time before an air-rage incident with an unarmed intruder resulted in 4-500 people dying as an airliner went straight into the ground. And yet no government agency even considered forcing airlines to "reduce profits" by adding a 1000 lb titanium/aluminum door to seperate the pilots from the passenters, even though the idea of a 'stronger door' is the first thing that strikes EVERYONE.
It's a known fact, by those in the know, that most of what "humanity" and "society" does is Tombstone Technology. Everything that has happened could have been prevented if decisions were made on the side of safety instead of economics. If people didn't simply refuse to deal with complexities by glossing over them with black and white pictures. The phrase "tombstone technology" does not describe "what must be", but describes what goes on now because of the "stupid short-sighted decisions human beings currently make." The way in which organizations, businesses, governments, and masses of human beings makes decisions MUST CHANGE.
If the FAA isn't relieved of it's air-safety responsibilities, I will be sickened. It's been known for 10-15 years now that the NTSB should be in charge. The conflict of interest of the FAA in promoting air travel and the profits of the airlines has already killed so many due to not implementing NTSB recommendations.
If all they do is "beef up" boarding security, I will be sickened. We've known for 10-15 years that current security precautions are totally inadequate. I have never EVER heard of a "test" of the boarding security precautions which didn't report a 40-60% success rate at getting serious weapons aboard.
Airplanes have been siezed before by people bluffing that they have bombs. Knives do not need to be made out of metal. And yet we've got some idiot on TV spouting off how it's so impossible to prevent someone from hijacking an airplane and doing this, seeing as they don't actually need a weapon. If there was a bulkhead and they had no weapon, all they could do is bluff and negotiate when back on the ground.
No, you can't stop someone from blowing up an airplane in-flight. But you can stop someone from crashing a fully loaded super-liner (like the new ones on the drawing boards from Boeing and Airbus) from being crashed into the Superdome and suffocating 100,000 people, or bringing down the Sears tower.
You're simply refusing to work through the complexities of the real world. That's what got us into this fucking mess!!! We can handle complexities of this nature, if those capable of making analytic decisions are given the chance, and not mucked with by those who can't think past their nose.
BTW: With respect to depressurization: the pilots simply need to do a crash dive down to 5000 feet and slow to 150-200mph, at which point there will not be a pressurization difference and aerodynamic stresses will be minimized. Then a few bullet holes will be just fine.
Until yesterday, most airline hijacking incidents were confrontational with the hijackers making demands and, when met, would release the passengers and crew. Now that we have witnessed the potential of suicide terrorists, we need to come up with a better way to protect all people in the sky...I say wire the door, floor, whatever for shock/stun/electrocution if a hijacker breaks in.
The pilot or co-pilot could just hit a little panic button like a bank teller. This would activate an instant door that would be inpenetrable by bullets, activate the floor to electrocute or stun whoever is standing there at that moment, and it would also reset the transponder to show an emergency situation. Once activated, the door would not open and the transponder would not be able to reset until the plane was back on the ground and the airline or FAA gave a ground worker the code to disable the emergency function. If it was a false alarm, oh well, it would be the price paid for safety. And if it was a real situation, then the plane could be escorted by military jets to safe ground or be shot down.
If you were on a plane taken by terrorists, would you rather the military just shoot it down than have the terrorists fly it into a building and kill 20 or 30 thousand people? I'd hold up a sign telling the F-16 to "FIRE, PLEASE".
The only effective weapon against terrorism is to do absolutely nothing.
Make any change at all in response, and you are instantly losing. Pandering to the desired effect, which is 'change'.
Not so. In evolution (and in business) a new strategy only succeeds until everyone else has caught onto it and adapted to neutralize it. One can at least shore up the gaps in the way buildings and aircraft are designed to attempt to prevent this sort of thing recurring. Either that or we should reach the comclusion that air travel is inherently risky and no amount of feigned security is going to prevent something like this, and do away with the extra expense and humiliation of what we generously call airport security. I think that concept was common knowledge before all this. All this incident did was make it unavoidable.
Say what you will about the loss of life, and the human tragedy of it, but the fact remains: humans die, whether at the hands of other humans, or by their own doing.
Right, right. Let's trash the whole social contract, shall we? American citizens make increasingly greater concessions of their rights and liberties to their government on the grounds that the government will in turn perform its current function of legislation and taking care of the tough stuff. Do as much as cross the street wrong or talk to a cop or a judge in a way that displeases them and the system penalizes you. People are liable when they don't perform their portion of the social contract, but you seem to be suggesting that when the government fails in its capacity to keep its people safe from harm it should be released from its obligation to do so. Governments, like doctors, bury their mistakes. Now either we have a government that is making ever-more inroads into the liberties and rights of its people in an attempt to shoulder the burden of doing the tough stuff, mainaining a safe system so that people are able to go about their individual pursuits, in which case it needs to ensure that it does so, or we have a government that is only responsible for settling disputes and maintaining internal cohesion as applies to foreign policy, in which case it needs to stop making a power grab in the private lives of its citizenry. Either it's one way, or it's the other. It can't have it both ways, controlling the private lives of its citizenry yet not responsible for them.
Heard on FOX news in an interview that one of the reasons the CIA lost track of Osama Bin Laden was due to his switching from cell phones to PGP and the Internet for communications. Somehow i'm feeling a little guilty for fighting that cause a while ago.. wondering what slash doters think.
-- "The best way to predict the future is to invent it."
What would you do if another state came into your city, and demolished your house, just because some extremists bombed a pizzeria earlier that day? The arab-states dislike Israels actions in palestine, with all rights.
There is lots of racism in the middle east, and it was when things came to seeing sionism as racism, that the us and isreal left. I pretty much think seeing your people as better than others, and that the other people should just move if you say so, is a lot like what Adolf Hitler thought at first when he deported lots of jews, gypsies and others...
Relative of a friend reports of Gas Stations getting molitof cocktails in NYC!!!
Any first hand accounts?
I didn't know lag time was *that* bad on the internet these days...
I had a long talk this summer with a person that works at the FAA in their security division. To make a long story short, I was shocked about what I learned regarding airport checkpoints.
1) The checkpoint are not run by the airports or the FAA, but instead are private companies contracted by the airlines.
2) Pay is extremely poor at these checkpoints and in many airports these are the most unskilled and uneducated laborers.
3) Turnover is extremely high at these checkpoints, which means that most of the workers there are perpetually "green" (i.e. novices).
4) If a restaurant in the airport food court has an opening, that job is likely to be snatched up by a now "former" check point operator. Why? Because they see those fastfood jobs as a step up in the world.
Overall, I got the impression that it would be extremely easy to sneak something through a checkpoint. We can talk about air marshalls, armoured cockpit doors, etc., but the truth is that yesterday 24 men managed to sneak 24 knives onto 4 different aircraft.
Why are all the death toll numbers changing or shall I say being lowered.
And does anybody know anything about early reports of flight 93 being shot down by USAF planes?
Just wondering...
You don't kill terrorists to punish them, you kill them to get rid of them! The more terrorists you kill, the less terrorism there will be. Duh!
You're right! That tactic worked so well for Isreal, they've run out of terrorists to kill!
Dumbass.
0 1 - just my two bits
Whoever or wherever is responsible - if it were possible (ie, if it didn't kill more neighboring countries and worldwide people) - one 10-20 megaton hydrogen bomb for each city/town in the area. Turn it all to slag. Then a message on international TV to the effect of "Don't fuck with us." (actually, just that being said would be enough).
Unfortunately, such bombs aren't clean by any means, and would just escalate the situation with other countries etc - I don't consider such a response anywhere realistic.
Basically, what is needed is a method to near-simultaneously cause each and every backwards thinking islamic radical (not all islamic people - just the real fucked up ones) to simply disappear off the face of the planet. I know it isn't possible, but that is the only solution which has any hope of really working.
Even then, I doubt it - simply because of human nature...
Imagine: No more Moslems !
I suspect that the most active terrorists are simply sociopaths, who have a need to hurt and kill and rationalize their anger, directing it at a specific group (especially because it gives them political power). There is more of Hitler than Ghandi in bin Laden. What message was Hitler sending Jews? While the US (I'm a Yankee) is guilty of meddling too much, Americans on the whole are not dancing whenever a Palestinian's house is bulldozed. We need to have it explained when we do wrong. Mostly we're a target because we're rich. This attack just gets us angry, not smarter.
We are the first generation of Morlocks. Eat the rich!
Just reported on CNN - the remaining stories of tower 2 has collapsed. They're still worried about 1 Liberty Plaza collapsing further, and have evacuated rescue workers from that area.
Our response as Americans to the attack must take three forms:
/.ers won't like this, but it may be inevitable. Would you be willing to have your picture taken and compared with pictures of known terrorists before you could board a plane? It may come down to that.
1. Changes to make ourselves more secure. These include may changes to airport security, perhaps isolating pilots. Other, similar measures can help to make such attacks more difficult, though clearly they won't defer them completely.
2. Increase surveillance.
3. Develop new energy technologies, to free us from our dependence on imported oil. The sooner we stop burning fossil carbon as our principal energy source, the better.
These are practical steps that will lessen our vulnerability. Note that none involve bombing anybody: the fact is that we may never find or capture those responsible; and simply bombing a country because somebody name is trumped up in the newspapers solved nothing. Of course, if some Jackal-like figure were to put a bullet through bin Laden's head, I would not sorrow greatly.
Do you expect any less? Are you so naive as to think that terrorism is any different than any other form of crime? In the few thousand years of recorded history, criminals have been punished and executed continually. Are you suggesting that anarchy is the solution? Do you not mind when your house is looted or your loved one murdered?
"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."
I'm pretty sure on CNN or other news station I heard/read that they were designed to withstand a hit from a 707 (not accounting for all the fire, etc.). Of course, a 707 is significantly smaller than a 757 or 767, and momentum, fuel, etc. all make a differnce.
What?
It may be true that some countries have some legitimate gripes against us. *BUT* if you are suggesting that what they did to us yesterday was understandable and not the acts of pure evil savages, you are a really sick nut-job.
Am I going to be scared of being hijacked? No. They've just tought me that you can't just sit back and let people make you a victim and hope that it works out in the end.
When I get on my flight to LA next week, I'll be hoping that some asshole TRIES to hijack the plane so that he can proceed to get the shit kicked out of him. Even if he puts me down, the guy behind me will get him.
$0.02 (CDN)
Just a note in case people are looking to give blood that live in or near Indianapolis, IN: Most blood centers will be closed and setting up shop in Conseco Fieldhouse on Thursday and Friday so that they can handle alot more people more efficiently. Sorry, I don't have the hours or other information.
What?
You may be OK with grabbing both ankles and spreading your arse-cheeks so you can take it up the cornhole, but why should anyone else? Inaction is no action! What have you been smoking, because I sure would love some.
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
This is not an attack on America, as much as it was intended to be. It was an attack on the World. A large portion, if not most, Companies in the world trade center have their Headqaurters in other countries all over the world. The WTC was merely on American Soil. It wasn't America's economy that was hurt and terrorized - it was thousands of secretaries, salesmen, computer operators, and janitors. Ordinary people trying to make a living. They have been devastated, as have been their friends neighbors and families. Let me make a suggestion. All the people who are yakking away about america deserved it, or along those lines, sit back for a moment, shut up, and THINK. Use some of that precious gray matter. These people, for the most part, were not americans by birth or origin. They were people just like you and me. Would YOU still be staying "it was America's fault, and oh hey, they should change their policy" if it was YOUR wife, son, husband, relative, friend in there? WOULD YOU!? Didn't Think So. Just imagine how those PEOPLE.. real live people.. must be feeling about how everyone is talking about their loved one dying saying things like 'America had it coming', especially when they and their son was born and grew up in Australia, on the other side of the damn world like one couple Ive seen on the TV. Grab the right end of the stick. Please. Visit This Register Article and see for your self, just how many foreign companies there were.
Imagine this scenario, say we discover that it was Laden who was responsible. We demand that he and his closest men are turned over to us for execution, and imagine that Afghanistan complies.
Terrorist would then know that there is no where they can hide safely while they plan their acts of evil and depravity.
The message is simple, they have no respect for human life, they are no more than animals, worse because animals would never do this to themselves. I have no qaulms about detroying these people, to put the fear in them that our citizens are currently going through.
It doesn't matter that others will come along, the alternative is to let these people do whatever they want and that is simply wrong.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Show these people a little shred of economic prosperity and I guarantee you this whole thing will dissapear. I'll tell you, it isn't the Saudi oil sheiks who are crashing jets into buildings. As it lies now, there are simply too many people out there with nothing to gain and nothing to lose.
You must understand that people like Osama Bin Ladin and the Taliban are a threat to democracy in the Middle East, let alone the US. I mean even IRAN looks down on the Taliban. Egypt is scared stiff of terrorists! Everywhere you go there are tourism police lurking with submachine guns to protect the AMERICANS who are there. Just wait until there is another luxor massacre and the money goes. Then some right wing theocratic government will take over for the moderate government, and we will have lost another stable government in the region.
Like I said. Stop giving Israel guns and start doing something about the economies in these countries. People wouldn't be so pissed off if they were getting a piece of the action!
You mean like the ones that rule every Middle Eastern Islamic regime? Name for me one, ONE moderate leader of an Islamic regime. Name for me one who allows women to dress and act in a way THEY want. Name for me one who does not support a violence in their justice system that makes Texas look like Norway. Name for me one who was elected in a fair and open process.
And we will destroy them utterly.
We can throw Bible versus around all day.
But here's a simple fact:
Our safety as a nation is imperiled unless people UNDERSTAND that if you do this to the American homeland that:
1) You will be destroyed.
2) You friends will be destroyed.
3) Your family will be destroyed.
4) Your relgion will be destroyed.
I'm sure the nut jobs in the Middle east think the same way. But there's a critical difference:
We have the means to do it. And damnit, the Constituion of the United States is clear the primary job of the government, the PRIMARY job is to defend the US.
I say, woe be the country that stands in the way of us.
Hey, throw our palenstinians, good causes, IRA, anything. I frankly don't care. They will now be punished in a way that will make all of us turn our head.
But it must be that way. Sorry.
I don't know if you're aware of this but the fundamental problem in that area is that since the founding of Israel, the Arab countries have continuously devoted themselves to its destruction. I think you also have some major misconceptions regarding the nature of a "Palestinian homeland" which could be more accurately described as "whatever area happens to be under Israeli control at the moment".
This is entirely understandable. Before the allies decided to give Israel to the Jews as a new homeland, the Arabs who had been living there for thousands of years, had just fought a bloody civil war to escape Turkish occupation. They got almost no help from their British "allies".
The use of the word "racist" is a non-event. The issue was conference ostensibly intended to fight racism that turned into a wildly anti-semitic assault depicting Israel (one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world) as the sole locus of evil. Yes, it's appropriate that the US government didn't lend legitimacy to it, and European countries should be ashamed of their compliance.
Why were the US and Israel the only two countries to walk out of the UN conference on racism?
If it makes you feel better, think about how much we spend on defense each year. Now think about the dollar value of the fact that Iraq didn't have nukes in 1991. Was aid to Israel cost effective?
We don't need Israel to blow up nuclear power plants. We're perfectly capable of doing it ourselves. And besides what right did we have to attack Iraq? Because we wanted to controle the price Iraq could charge for THEIR oil. If you think it was to save the poor Kuwaitis, where were we when the Hutu were commiting genocide against the Tutsi in Rowanda? At it's height the Tutsi were slaughtered at the greatest rate in history and we didn't lift a finger. (Yes I know that more Jews were killed by the Nazis but it was over a much longer period)
And also that the current hostility isn't because Israel denied the Palestinians a homeland but because it offered them one.
The current hostility is because the Palestinians see the Israelis as invaders who have spent the last 50 years makeing themselves at home on land which the Palestinians had been calling home for thousands of years.
Your arguments have been appearing several times on Slashdot and in the media, propelled by the well-oiled (sorry for the pun) Arab propaganda.
However, this reminds me of the propaganda in the Third Reich, Hitler's Germany. You see, Arabs would like US to be more partian in the Middle East, in favor of the Palestinians. Or even better, just leave the problem to the Arab countries. That's exactly what Germany wanted from the European (and other world) countries: mind your own business, so you won't be harmed.
And so, when Germany wanted to take part of the Chech Republic, the European powers of the time (France and Unied Kingdom) agreed, thinking that this will secure them peace.
Well, Germany invaded the whole of Chech Republic, butwhat the heck, they are not touching France or UK, right? So, everythig is fine? Well, not really, as son after Germany invades Poland. Hmmm.. now surely the European countries would join forces to stop the agression.. uhh.. no, they didn't. They thought that it wll stop there, that they won't be harmed. Some 70 million deaths later, the world didn't learn the lesson.
Why do you think the US supporst Israel? It's because it's the only truly democratic country in the MIddle East. Sure, the US policy could go hands-off, let the Arabs "throw Israel in the sea" as they so often threaten. Then they will be satisfied with te US. So, the terrorist attack actually worked! They achieved something, they changed US' policy in the Middle East! Great, so next time they don't like something about the US, they make another terrorist attack, and the US will cave in. Well, let's see: the christians in Syria, why not get rid of them, too? Surely the US will not mind, or else...
If you don't stand up to the bullies, they will make your life impossible, eventually. That's why we have principles, that's why they make us humane and preserve our dignity.
Sigged!
Taliban wisend up ? They must be really scared about getting bombed after all, but this is probably just "symbolic". I'm still waiting for the president to give them the 24 hour warning to turn him in.
a apworld/1000336445-1141825578.html
http://au.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/20010913/
Bin Laden under house arrest: report
Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia had placed alleged terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden under house arrest in the wake of the suicide attacks on the United States, an Arabic online newspaper reported.
Quoting "fundamentalist Arab sources", Ilaf said the "Taliban have arrested Osama bin Laden before placing him under surveillance with several of his assistants," including the head of the Egyptian branch of Al-Jihad Ayman Al-Zawahri and bin Laden's military commander, Muhammad Atef Al-Makni.
"A number of Afghan fighters are under house arrest along with bin Laden," said the report late Wednesday.
But a diplomat at the Taliban's embassy in Abu Dhabi said he could not confirm the report.
"All we know is that he (bin Laden) is somewhere in Afghanistan, but we are not aware if he is under house arrest," the diplomat said.
Bin Laden and commander Atef have been indicted for the 1998 bombings of the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.
Bin Laden has emerged as the prime suspects in yesterday's kamikaze hijacked passenger jet strikes on New York and Washington.
- sigs are for wimps.
This article World War III at MaximOnline, specifically
"Scenario 1: Moles for Muhammad"
, is told by retired Colonel David H. Hackworth. I think he could see things getting close to flash point, he wasn't wrong with the size of the target and who knows maybe this is still a possibility, except maybe closer than some think.
On another note, maybe it's time for those patents on cheap free energy from water to be released into the public domain and for this technology to be used for planes, trains and automobiles, etc.
Also time for more trade throttling on the middle east till they hand over the goods. Eye for an eye doesn't work with these sort of people because they are willing to put their who following and their supposed religion on the line.
When shit hits the fan get some of these https://youtu.be/pY-GncsZ-UE
This has nothing to do with globalization, corporate greed, or any other supposed causes.
Terrorism is an act of evil. it is not a rational act. It is not a strategy. Terrorists are people who get off on murder. Period. They dream up causes so they can convince weak willed morons that their cause is just. They do it to distract their victims from being able to reap revenge.
We must utterly destroy every nation that harbors and assists terrorists. Then it will stop.
When terrorists fear our reprisal, they will cease their actions. Nothing else will stop them.
-Michael
Threshold RPG
The mostly likely suspect for these attacks would have to be, or at the very least include, American nationals. The "nuke other countries for revenge" mentality is terrorism of an even higher level than that behind this tragedy.
The perpetrators were extraordinarily well informed, equipped and organized. I wouldn't put it past their abilities to leave a false trail, and it's vital that in our rage to punish those responsible we don't massacre innocents. Do not forget the moral of the Oklahoma bombings.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times -and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Points 1-3: If we turn our eyes from the fact that our own actions cause human suffering, among civilians, among children, we can hardly consider ourselves above being hated. If we willfully cause the suffering of civilians in order to further our point, the only distinction between us and the terrorists is that we're unwilling to get our hands dirty. Point 5.1: Have you read about any of the CIA's actions in the '70s and '80s? The ones they've ADMITTED to? Point 5.2: Geeks tend to come from the educated elite. Obviously. Those who can afford the hardware, if nothing else. As a former--often on the verge of current--citizen of Third World America, I feel quilified to answer your final trailing question. Living on the streets is illegal in the cities of the Unitied States. Living in poverty is illegal. Most so-called "welfare reform" movements are almost explicitely designed to take children away from the poor. In many towns and cities, there are "rif-raf" ordinances, where one can be ticketed and (if one can't afford to pay the ticket) jailed simply for looking scruffy in public! Americans are slaves to the dollar, sir, we are slaves to the bottom line; we are slaves to the American Dream, to keeping the nightmare it has become out of the eyes of those who have attained it in illusion. A few fortunate ones among us are able to find work that we can love; the vast majority dread waking up in the morning and being forced to go to work. Yes, in theory, there are other options: we can go to prison, or we can die. These are NOT, however, the options available to the people of a free nation. Our last presidential election was a sham; if this had happened in a "developing nation" the UN would have sent in peace keepers to implement democratic elections. Dubya CLEARLY lost the popular vote (note that Gore also had only a plurality, not a majority). The outcome of the electoral vote stands undefined; a deadline was artificially set so that Americans could have "closure" when what we wanted was "democracy". Pop psychology (the modern state religion, and the opium of the masses) won out over law, justice, and common sense. Our nation's ruling class, the class that controls 95% of the wealth, as well as virtually all of the means of production, consists of less than 5% of the population; more than 90% of the wealth is controlled by less than 1% of the population. Think fast: who knows was "oligarchy" means? My mother, an ordained minister and community organizer, nearly fifty years old (sorry, mom) and holding a Divinity degree from Harvard, was teargassed during a peaceful demonstration in Eugene, Oregon several years ago. Her lungs were permenantly scarred--primarily due to the fact that, as a minister to the poor and disposessed, she can't afford health care. Sound like a story from some bizarre third-world nation? It is, a story from third world America. Most of all, Americans are slaves to our own willful ignorance. It's truly telling that an appearantly intelligent man like yourself (at least, you're capable of logging on to /.) can believe that Americans, the majority of Americans, are free. We don't know what's going on all around us. We want to cling to an out-dated image of America; we may be clinging to an image of an America that never was.
If you think you are free, sir, you're one of the lucky ones. The rest of us are not so skilled in the art of doublethink.
6000 die every DAY in this country. And 100,000 humans die every die on this planet.
Quantity is not the only issue. It's the fact that the deaths were so sudden, in such a small area, and the result of malicious intent. These people were executed. Many of the deaths you're talking about are due to age, disease, and some that have voluntairly entered themselves into conflict. At least some have time to prepare, make sure their families are taken care of. The people in the world trade center were doing paperwork when a 757 flew into the building.
- Scott
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
You need to take your head out of your ass. Americans are no different than the people of any other country. When the time calls for it, most Americans are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.
Did you see how many firemen died trying to save people? Did you see how many people ran back to the toppling buildings to do what they could to help?
After Pearl Harbor you know what many American men did, they joined up! They wanted to fight! They would rather fight and die than sit and do nothing! 200+ firemen are DEAD because they were trying to save others! Doctors in the area rushed in to help, some of which are missing.
Open your fucking eyes!
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
"No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win though to absolute victory... With confidence in our armed forces - with the unbounding determination of our people - we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us God."
- President Franklin D Roosevelt
December 8th, 1941
Speaking to the American people after the attack on Pearl Harbor
And does anybody know anything about early reports of flight 93 being shot down by USAF planes?
CNN is reporting, and I've seen it elsewhere, that people on that flight called relatives who told them of the WTC attacks. It has been said that the men on the flight voted to fight the terrorists once realizing their plight was not likely to come to a negotiated end on a runway somewhere. Apparently, the passengers did prevent them from striking their target, now strongly favored to have been the White House.
Regardless of whether the President was there at the time or not, a successful attack on the White House-- a blow struck against the worldwide symbol of Democracy and America-- would have been just totally detrimental to the [at that time] already-seriously-floundering morale of Mr. and Mrs. America. IMHO, when they identify the passengers who fought the terrorists, a high school or two ought to be named for those guys. They won (or at least fought to a draw) one of the battles of a war of iconoclasm. Those fuckers are attacking the images of this country, the things we hold dear as symbols of America, in order to shake our faith in the system, and hopefully bring the system crashing down.
~Philly
mb if it had raised its head one more time, it would have saved us all.
now its too late. We're a global power now. good bye democracy, hello national security
Large passenger jets are close to being able to land themselves (if they are not already capable of doing so, that is). Of all the solutions being bandied about, I haven't heard of anyone suggesting a "panic" button.
The idea would be simple. The pilot hits the button and relinquishes control -- permanently. The plane then looks in its database for nearby airports and lands itself.
...its time to get medieval on these motherfucker's asses.
As a part of the "machine" that allows you the freedom to bitch about it, you're welcome.
Now, for just a moment, pop yourself out of the comfortable little shell you've built for yourself where your wonderfully self-righteous attitudes keep you warm and satiated at night and think about this experience I had, for just a moment.
When I was serving in the Republic of Korea, I was riding on the subway one day, when sitting on a bench next to me, (I was standing, anyone over 15 and under 35 stands) an older gentleman taps me on the leg and says "Excuse me, are you an American?" I answered yes, and he took my hand in his, shook it and said "Thank you.". I asked, for what? He replied "When my country needed it, your country sent it's sons to die for me and my children. You sent us the young men who should have been building your country, and those of us that lived through it, never forget. Don't pay attention to these young kids, they don't know any better. But we remember."
For every instance of exploitation you can name, I can find more to show that Americans are the most compationate, caring, and and concerned citizens on the planet. So much so, that even total screwheads like yourself can rant about the evils of corporate America and how horrible this place is. Not to sound like a total military goober here, but go try and complain about the state of the nation in some other countries and see how far you get.
I'm sorry, but sit down, shut up and grow up.
Wu-Tang Name: Half-Cut Skeleton Get your own Wu-Na
To be truly tragic, one must have a fatal
flaw. Our fatal flaw is our arrogance.
I want to make an analogy to help people try to get inside the heads of the terrorists who perpetrated yesterday's atrocities. It is inevitably an uncomfortable analogy, perhaps especially for the slashdot community.
Think of a typical all-American high school. Think of the football team. Think of the big powerful swaggering star quarterback.
Perhaps he is a good guy. But he is the hero, and he throws his weight a bit. Perhaps he's a nice guy and is an alterboy on Sundays, it doesn't matter.
Perhaps there are some lesser kids at the school. Not necessarily geeks. Maybe goths. Anyway in persuit of the all-American way the quaterback is somewhat down on such people. They resent him. The probably don't resent his athletic ability ("Who'd want to be a jock?"). They resent his attitude that he is God's chosen student. They resent being belittled. They resent being told that football is everything.
One of these put-upon kids puts a fire-cracker in the quaterback's locker and as it happens sets fire to his year book etc.
The Quaterback is hopping mad and goes around saying "when I catch that F***er, I'm going to rip him apart! If anyone knows who he is and isn't telling me I'll rip them apart too!"
Now destroying the WTC is not the same as a firecracker, but the analogy stands. Be aware, America, that much of the world does see you as an overbearing and self satisfied and opinionated, just like the quaterback in the story.
WTF does that have to do with anything? He tells his people we are denying them food, yet we are prepared to give them food, but, he doesn't let them have OUR food. That makes sense, how?
Maybe he should stop trying to build biological and nuclear weapons and should let his people eat.
I think you need to take your head out of your ass.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
And it is interesting to note that Israel pulled-out ALL of it's ambassadors mere minutes after the WTC was hit.
Something *** BIG *** is brewing, and it ain't smellin' good.
And how come the news don't show any pictures of people jumping from the WTC towers???
When I heard about the first plane that crashed into the WTC, I thought back to 1945 when an Army Corp B-25 bomber crashed into the Empire State Building. You can read more about it here
Nobody is going to be able to hijack a plane like this again. Up until now, the rule has been for the passengers to sit tight and wait for the Swat team to bust in and take care of it.
I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't another hijacking like this again, because NOBODY is going to sit down and let some punk with a knife do anything. Hell, if I'd known what was going to happen, I'd have jumped them.
Air marshalls carried guns on aircraft for a long time. They came out with a special rounder to be used. It's commercially available now to people like me that live in apartments and don't want shots to go through walls should they have to defend themselves.
It's called MagSafe (as well as a few other brands). Basically the point of the round has a resin tip with small "BBs" in it. It fractures on impact and loses energy. It'll really hurt someone, but loses a LOT of it's energy when it hits drywall, and wouldn't go through the skin of a plane.
this guy is right on the mark
Please be careful about attributing these "good" things to capitalism. This is not strictly true. Only when you have *both* Capitalism and Democracy in ballence do these things occur. In the last 10 years our Capitalism has been taking too much credit for our Democracy, and Corporations are getting more power then the People. This is a problem. Capitalism is good, Capitalism taken to its extreme is Totalitarian and we must use Democracy wisely to keep it in check; to harness the firey beast if you will... please consider this.
religion is not the problem nor is ideology. fanaticism is. beliefs taken to their extreme, to the point where they are grotesque caracatures of the ideas they once were is the root of all evil.
Slashdot itself had a story about police gun
usage in New York. Guns do not get grabbed by
crooks to be used against cops. There are a few
accidents, including shooting self in the foot.
Mostly there are suicides... but hey, would you
like a pilot to shoot himself in the restroom
or aim his plane into the ground? At least if he
shoots himself, the co-pilot can land the plane.
I combined these two images, taken from eagle rock in New Jersey, into a flash dissolve, which gives an idea of the scale of the damage.
http://www.amberdigital.com/wtc/
yeah, my friend (non-slashdotter) wrote this and sent it to a couple senators. it pretty much sums up what i, and i'm sure others, have been thinking. lines might be a little fucked up... oh well.
Dear Senator,
Please do not give in to the pressure to call for extensive retribution
against the people harboring the terrorists responsible for the Sept. 11
attack. Too many people have already died in the attack; we must not kill
any more innocent people. Please, I beg you to consider the implications of
a retaliatory attack. If we strike back at the terrorists and the country
harboring them, not only will more innocent people be killed but this will
continue a vicious cycle that ends only with the death of the entire human
race. Revenge only begets revenge.
Please to not give in to political pressure. I may not represent the
majority of Americans, but I know that the killing will never end if we
strike back blindly and without discerning between terrorist and civilian.
To strike back now would be to ensure that another attack will come later in
time. I plead with you to consider the possibility that we can use this
situation to set a precedent for all of humanity.
We can use this opportunity to extend a friendly hand to all of our
brothers around the world. We can work with all human beings to create a
better future for mankind. Any country, whether weak or strong, large or
small, wicked or righteous, can attack another country. To strike back now
would only show the terrorists that we are no better than they are. Please
consider my message. Violence begets violence in a vicious cycle of death.
Peaceful solidarity as a human race offers us a chance to break this cycle.
If we must consider biblical texts at this time, let us consider this:
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a
tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes
you on the right cheek, turn the other also;"
"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"
Thank You,
Jacob B____
An intractable problem can only be resolved by stepping beyond conventional solutions.
Look, computerized systems to ensure the pilot can't screw up have been tried in the past. The result was that a computer took over at precisely the wrong moment because it thought the pilot was doing something he shouldn't (even though he was actually reacting to an emergency), and the plane crashed. As a result, such systems were banned.
Airline pilots in America are about as safe as we can possibly ask for. Most of them are ex-military, and all of them have to have a lot of commercial flight experience before they get behind the yoke of a jumbo jet. It's not uncommon for a pilot to have 20 years professional experience before they get to pilot a commercial airline jet. These people are very well known and are very, very stable or they don't get the job.
I would rather trust an airline pilot to fly the plane I'm in than a computer any day.
Now, if you're worried about terrorists getting into the cockpit, perhaps you should be questioning why there's a door between the cockpit and the passenger cabin. Why can't they have a wall between them, and separate doors to the outside?
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/seismic.impact/
t c. html
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_w
You miss the point. If there's no way for the terrorists to get to the pilots, the pilots will retain control of the plane, thus removing the larger threat of the plane being used as a missile.
The plane might land with a cabin load of dead passengers, or it might simply be blown up by the terrorists, but it's still removes at one stroke the possibility of this tactic being used again. I think it's a great idea.
... is one of the 3 countries wihch recognise the govt of Afghanistan as legitimate. Lets also not forget that the ruling power in Afghanistan the army also actively trains and supports the Taleban and provides them with weapons and intelligence.
They want to stay in power and if they try to go against their 'Muslim brothers' the hundreds of terrorist groups within these 2 countries will tear the remaining parts of it to shreds and we could end up having 2 countries in total anarchy.
Probably inspired by the Red Cross donation fund, someone put up a Geocities Web site to solicit reward money to catch the WTC terrorists, with contributions via PayPal and Amazon.
In the old days, only the wealthy could put a price on someone's head. Thanks to Paypal etc. now we all can.
"On conviction, the monies will be distributed in equal shares to the person or person(s) who provided information which led to the arrest and prosecution. This determination shall be made either by the Federal Bureau of Investigation or by the Federal courts."
Give via PayPal: PayPal towerrevenge@yahoo.com
Give via Amazon: Amazon PayPage
Information: http://www.geocities.com/towerrevenge/
What do you think?
Plase note, my dear coward, that Christianity was also a "gutter religion" from a "garbage country" in the time of the Romans. The Xians came to power through Jihad, through a hollocaust of proportions, in comparison to the population of the time, that shames the Nazis (Xians) and all the so-called extremist Islamic movements ever. But if I start talking of witch burnings, I'm sure I'll hear about my own religion being extinct, and about survival of the fittest (though Xians deny that last). "Leave the world to the strong"? Did not Christ say "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"?
Or perhaps you're a follower of the state religion of the United States, the religion of money, of pop-psychology, of self-indulgence. Of self-importance, of greed, of medicated contentment and willful ingorance. Go back to your shrink and work through your post-traumatic stress syndrome, stemming from a disaster half a continent away that you saw on TV, with a commercial break every ten minutes, and that is ultimately no more real to you than an episode of Survivor.
By the way: your kind? What rock dwelst thou under?
the more traditional term for "arrogance" in terms of tragic flaws is hubris. all the biggies of tragedy were guilty of this (oedipus, creon, agamemnon, medea, macbeth). hopefully the US won't end up as bad off as them..
An intractable problem can only be resolved by stepping beyond conventional solutions.
If you get stung by a bee, do you just let it sit there, no you slap the hell out of it. If you get stung by 10 bee's, you get to a safe place, and then come back and destroy all the bee's and the nests in the area.
Or, do you stay the fuck away from areas you don't belong in?
I am NOT saying the American people deserved this. I do believe that the United States government and the US Military organizations have been meddling with world affairs for far too long. They support dictatorships and arm one side (sometimes both!) whenever it will support their goals.
Isolationist my ass. The US has been doing this since WW2, if not longer.
Again, The American civilians did not deserve this and I do not, repeat do not condone this at all. Terrorism is never good.
There is a rant intellectual dishonesty in your comments.
The US and UK have been extremely good in their bombing of Iraq to target only military installations. If Saddam lines up his own people to die by using them as shields at a military installation, he is drafting them into his army and they are serving as un/willing soldiers. Or hostages. Either way I find it hard to fault the US for Saddam's actions.
The same applies to the attacks on Serbians. In the case of Bosnia/Serbia, lest anyone forget, the US was practically *begged* to join the conflict, and tried to resist committing any troops whatsoever to the conflict. It is only with growing proof of atrocities that they even joined!!
I am not an American, and don't agree with many of their decisions, but come on!!
The US has indeed tried to rein in its allies. WHat the heck have you been for 20 years???? The US has tried as hard or harder than any other nation or organization to resolve the Balkan, Kuwait, and Palestinian conflicts!
How many freaking peace treaties and attempts to moderate negotiations do you need before you realise that the US IS NOT ENCOURAGING WAR AND MURDER!!!
You mention the Serbs leaving Kosovo as if it had nothing to with US intervention??? You are being quite disingenious.
But finally, despite my disbelief at most of your post, you bring up a good point - US backing of terrorist groups. That is definitely troublesome. It's difficult to say what is actually backed or not, because frankly most people (including myself) don't have a clue about anything when it comes to to terrorist organizations and what the CIA does. I'm willing to acknowledge that the CIA has funded some questionable activities. I don't necessarily believe that they 'bankrolled' bin Laden or that they are massively involved in terrorist circles other than to gather information, though there is much I don't know.
And I do believe that what goes around comes around in some historical senses. The post-WWII era seems like the only time that people got war right - rebuild the places that just got torn up. The fact that the US ignored Afghanistan after the Soviets left was crass and stupid. The same goes with Iraq which was bankrolled against Iran. If you are going to bankroll someone, make sure they are truly on your side and you have an exit strategy. As it is, these two states were treated as pawns to play against the USSR and Iran, and they both apparently hate the US now.
As a friend of mine responded when this showed up on a mailing list we're both on: Recently?!?!?
This article was originally written and broadcast by Gordon Sinclair on CFRB, Toronto, Ontario, on JUNE 5, 1973 - over 28 years ago.
Besides the fact that I disagree with quite a lot of it, it's a bit out of date.
'crow
...and kiss your lifestyle goodbye. THIS is what can, will, must be done about this.
The modern, western, American lifestyle is already doomed; like the dinosaurs, we just haven't noticed. If humanity doesn't stop us, nature will. Not the Xian God come down off his mountain-top to smite us, but sheer, scientific, biological limitations. This cannot go on.
The World Trade Towers, the Pentagon, the White House, these are both the means and the symbols of this way of life. The national/international air system: again, a means, and a target of this attack that cannot be ignored.
America may, finally, be forced to step down off its pedistal. It's going to be hard, and a hell of a lot of us are going to die--because biologically we aren't fit to survive.
So what can be done about Terrorism? Get down on your knees, or out in a sacred circle, or wherever you feel is appropriate, and pray to the gods of your choice. And if you worship money, now might be a good time to convert.
I'm frickin' depressed. That's enough of this crap; I'm goin' home. Bless you all.
I don't know what to say about this. A friend of mine in [a Brooklyn neighborhood that shall remain nameless] just called and told me that a number of arabs (??) are dancing and cheering in the streets. One of them went up to her and said "why do you look so sad? this is a joyous day." I know that she isn't lying about this, but I'm not sure about her interpretation.
In addition, a Muslim woman hung a (Palestinian?) flag out of her window sometime today. Someone entered her apartment, beat up her husband and killed her (???). I find all of this hard to believe. Somebody please tell me that I'm wrong.
Personally I do not think that increasing the security at the airports is going to make a bit of difference. You can still get on board with a hip flask of ethoxyethane, a bag of gauze bandages and a belt that contains five feet of piano wire.
Increasing the "security" at the airports is a knee-jerk reaction that serves no other purpose than to create a "oh good, they're doing something" feeling in the general public that is totally misplaced.
You put two armed guards on board each airplane, and you train _ALL_ flight personnel in kung fu, you create an airlock between the cockpit and the rest of the airplane, or you make the cockpit autonomous. That's how you prevent suicide-hijacks.
If you want to be _sure_ that no passengers are going to pull any stunts, you sedate them when they board the plane. Preferably with Sodium Pentothal...
Cheers,
\Alph
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are quick to anger and not subtle at all.
Osama Bin Laden has been a key member of the official Afghan Taliban
6 28 6
4 87 .html
,July 31, 2001 10:22 a.m. EDT
7 38 3c.html
i a. binladen/
Government. Bin Laden has been serving as the Minister of Defense since Aug
30. Bin Laden has been making money by running drugs (heroin) from Pakistan
across Afghanistan.
So that Taliban government is DIRECTLY involved since a key member of their
government (Bin Laden). Also, Pakistan has been filling his coffers with
drug money.
------------------Relevant Sources are listed below----------------------
Bin Laden, a tool for Taliban, Thursday, 30 August 2001 23:07 (ET)
http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=21
"WASHINGTON, Aug. 30 (UPI) -- Recent media reports claim that Afghanistan's
Taliban rulers have appointed suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden their
defense minister."
OSAMA BIN LADEN TO LEAD TALIBAN MILITARY OPERATIONS, 14:40 2001-08-01
http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/2001/08/01/11
"Citing high-ranking Afghan sources, the Pakistani newspaper, Nation, has
reported that the Taliban have appointed two international terrorists, Osama
bin Laden and Juma Namangani, to lead military operations against the
Northern Alliance"
World: Taliban seeks friendship with U.S.
http://www.nandotimes.com/world/story/53212p-78
"On Monday, the United Nations Security Council unanimously approved the use
of U.N. monitors to help enforce sanctions against Afghanistan. The
resolution calls for 15 experts to be sent to countries bordering
Afghanistan - Pakistan, China, Iran Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and
Uzbekistan - to ensure that weapons are not smuggled in to fuel its brutal
civil war. The United Nations has accused Pakistan, one of only three
countries to recognize the Taliban government, of sending weapons across the
border. Pakistan denies the charge."
Plot to assassinate Bush - reports, July 9, 2001 Posted: 9:23 AM EDT (1323
GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/20/russ
MOSCOW, Russia -- Osama bin Laden has threatened to assassinate U.S.
President George W. Bush at a G8 meeting in Italy, the head of Russia's
Federal Bodyguard Service has said, according to reports
...to make a very clear, very public, very obvious statement that any sort of international terrorism is unacceptable and will be responded to with complete and utter destruction of all terrorist groups in the world. Any individuals or governments aiding terrorists will be likewise targetted.
A bit extreme? Perhaps, and I'll be the first to admit that I think killing more people is a poor solution. But realize this, and before you jump all over the idea, how many innocent, non-violent people have to die at terrorists' hands before the world says enough is enough.
I'm not suggesting kill all Muslims or Irish or Corsicans. But any "international" terrorist groups must be eliminated. How could leaving one group while leaving the ones responsible (eg, WTC attack) benefit us? Why do we want groups of terrorists?
The US/Europe/Russia/China are the dominant powers of the world. We make the rules. We decide who is right and wrong. So don't be naive and think the terrorists are "right" and fighting the good war. If they were in charge, would they hesitate to kill us (since we'd be the terrorists)?
We need to coordinate with Russia and Europe and in one massive planned attack wipe out all known terrorist groups in the world. There will be reprisal attacks, but this is a small price to pay. Do we kill a few innocents now or millions later?
For non "international" terrorists, such as the US militia groups, I think these are strictly internal problems and should be dealt with internally. Notice US militia groups don't blow up Afghani planes, or Irish pubs.
I fear, though, that this decision will be made after another unprecendented attack (I think we can all agree the WTC saga is without precedence). Perhaps a chemical/biologial or nuclear payload will be what it takes for the world to take a "no tolerance" stance on international terrorism.
The WTC events have threatened the very foundations of the free world. Not because the "big boy" got successfully attacked, but because terrorism has stepped up to a new level of destructive power. It will continue until the world realizes that it is time for what in a normal situation we would consider an "extreme" reaction.
The world powers must send a cohesive ground force and attack the terrorism at its source.
'crow
then there would always be guns on the aircraft, freeing the hijaakers from having to figure out how to smuggle them on board.
We just had a four groups of three to six men take over planes with small pocket knives and box cutters. A damn box cutter!! There's no thought needed to smuggle that on board!!
The reason why is was so easy to take over the plane was becuase they were the only people on the plane with a weapon. Can you really sit there and worry about a tool of protection falling in the hands of hijaakers when it's a hell of lot more likely that a trained personal would kill the hijaakers?!? Tell that to one of the family or friend of one of the 20,000(!!) who died at the WTC. Tell them you are more worried about a tool of protection falling in the wrong hands then allowing a trained person providing protection to prevent thier death.
Do it brave man. Go find a person who knows someone who died. Tell them you think it's better for the pilots to be unarmed. Tell them you think it's better that the only people on the plane with a weapon is a hijaakers. Becuase that is what you are really saying!!
BTW, Air Force pilots are trained to use hand guns. Part of that training is not allowing the gun to have the gun used on them.
The journey is better then the end.
Stopping days away from Baghdad was a poor decision, though a tough one.
Leaving Saddam in power did not help his people, did not curb his agression, did not get US tropps out of the Middle East, which they are occupying right now. (Iraq is a (partially) occupied country, and US troops are still in Saudi Arabia).
It is possibly a bomb. I just heard this on MSNBC. People are being cleared from the Empire State building. More later.
OH MY FUCKING GOD! this is the worst propanganda on earth if i ever saw one. if americans fail for that, then good night america!
Now that planes have been used themselves as weapons, and the passengers with them, I doubt there will be a high-jacking where they're aren't people like Glick and Barret. The sentiment has been repeated over and over these past two days: "If I fall, the guy behind me will get him."
I hope that if such a day ever comes for me, I can get over my imminent death fast enough to do some good.
Nothing is more dangerous than someone who thinks they have nothing to lose.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
Whoops. Here's the site. http://www.stratfor.com/
Can anyone give me the phone number so I can find out about donating HOT, THICK SPERM to the people of New York?
The terrorists may claim, that these are the reasons for their deed, or maybe there's some other 'political cause' they wanted to enforce. I don't care, and nobody should. Terrorism is just no way to make politics. That would really mean inviting terror, for everyone with any political aim would then consider terror to get to his aim. This cannot be. If someone hits you he has to be punished for hitting you, not given a reward.
There has to be made a distinction between the terrorists and other people with maybe similar political aims. It has to be made crystal clear, that the only way to get to those aims is via diplomacy, and that terrorism only is a setback in the process. Also the forces/parties/organisations seeking this dialogue have to be supported, so they gain support in their own countries. In the same way the reactionist and extremist forces, terrorists and the people backing and supporting them, have to be weakened, but the best way to do this would be, to make their own people see them for the inhumans and even traitors to their own countries they are.
The terrorist organisations need the hate between countries to find followers, one way to reduce their support is reducing that hate. Still it must be made clear, that the terrorists and their financial backers must first be found out and punished, before peace talks can go on. It must be also clear, that these are actions against the terrorists, not against countries or peoples. The Governments of the Countries where the terrorists are suspected are well advised to distance themselves from the terrorists, and even help the USA with their investigations.
If the Arab countries are aware, that now the opinion is swinging against them, then it should be also clear, that the terrorists are not working for, but against them, and that they're their enemies as well as the USAs. This may be hard on that nations, and against the emotions and education of their own people. But then it's time to change that education, and remember, that a government has to make rational decisions, and not be guided by some irrational extremist minority playing on their peoples emotions. If the US-decisions where guided by the gut-feelings of some american people, the middle east would be a nuclear wasteland by now. And the Arab people in fear of irrational revenge should try to see the other side, and think what they and their leaders would/should have done, were the situation reversed. Maybe then they come to the insight, that the terrorists are their enemies as well.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
What most of you Americans might not now (because the media will not tell you) is that Osama bin Laden was actually trained by the CIA during the Cold War to operate from Afghanistan against the Sovjets.
Another thing that went through my head today how much quality of humans have been lost in the WTC. Also think about all the DATA that was blown away, not only computer data (which was probably backed up at other places to some extent) but also contracts etc. and all the companies that simply vanished. horrible.
keep it simple.
France sold Israel nuclear weapons, not the US.
Yes terrorism is a signifigant threat to EVERYONE.
However, before you go declaring open season on terrorists, keep in mind that despite the fact your media leaves out the details, you own country is constantly involved in acts of terrorism.
How many civilians have the US killed in their wars on terrorism, drugs, copyright pirates? US civilians are rarely the victims of terrorism, but US forces and weapons have struck terror into the lives of millions.
This event still comes nowhere near the destruction of Hyroshima.
I said this a lot and I will keep saying it until I'm blue in the face;. "There has been enough violence. NO MORE!"
Get the Hell off my planet, you slimy mobster Bush!
Just released on FOX(TV) news:
Threat to Empire State building prompts NYC police to evacuate the neighborhood.
"A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither. " Ben Franklin
Bin Lauden is a rich boy who the Teleban laugh at as being a "Toyota warrior" for his lack of front line experience during the Russian war. Osama likes to use cell phones and (according to CBS News) uses the internet to spread his views and opinions. He is a high-tech kind of guy who likes his tech toys.
/. If the authorities feel that anything is useful then I'm sure that they can and will act on their own.
Why not go after those URL's, hack them and post anything you find on
Besides, nothing is worse for a terrorist or dictator or despot of any kind than to shine the light of the full truth on them. Since the internet if the largest mass of accumulated information the earth has ever seen - why not mine that information for anything that can be found about ANY of the terrorist groups in the world. Let them have no place to hide and no way to spread their lies uninhibited.
Ask our fellow Americans who have relatives or friends in countries that support terrorism to help the cause by supplying information they may get from those inside those countries. Help get the word out and the truth told.
The NPLA, Iraq, and Ben Lauden have all been linked to terror and murder so many times that even if they aren't involved in the WTC incident they still are a threat to the people of the world. They need to be dumped into the public spotlight and shown as the murdering fanatics they are. Let their friends and supports know that they too will be put on public display and their lives will be opened for all to see.
The internet is INFORMATION - use that information to teach the world to end their support for these people. Use that information to make their lies public, their lives public, their families public.
Lift up their rocks and show the world who they are and where they live and work. Shine a light on them ALL and let them know that they are now OUTSIDE the human race and will not be tolerated.
Let the "net" be the leader in a war to end terrorism in the entire world. Put the IRA, the PLO, and the "acronym-ed others" on notice that the internet is not their "stage" and its force can be felt even in stone age countries.
Luckily this is something that we can all do to the degree of our own capabilities. Some may simply post a symbol on their home page that shows they openly support anti-terrorist activities while some may hack cell phone calls or membership lists from organizations on the State Department's terrorist list. Whatever you are capable of doing - - do it. Use your brains and do what you think is right and get involved in closing these people down for good.
Let those who died be memorialized by those on the net who say "Enough is enough..." Put faces on every one of the dead and tell the world know who they were. Put faces on all those who might have killed them and tell the world who THEY are.
I've been thinking about how you would even go about trying to win a war in the middle east. It is quite a tricky problem.
Unlike either Germany or Japan, terrorist groups are not organized into strict hierarchy. Even if the leaders were convinced surrender, there isn't any reason why the individual self organized cells should do so.
Nor is the social system a structure founded on laws; rather it is a system founded on morals, with the moral teachings subject to many interpretations by the church leaders. So unseating the government and showing the people that the government was corrupt is also not possible.
The only way I can see of winning such a war is by doing something the US at least would consider very distasteful; that is we would have to displace not the government, but the religion. Topple the religious system, and show that the system of morals is corrupt. But the US' seperation of church and state will make us incapable of that sort of attack, while anything less will be unsuccessful.
I think the reason that Germany and Japan were both successfully changed was because they maintained the local form of government without its belligerence. Aside from a religious crusade we would be loathe to conduct, I can't see how the same result could happen here.
LibBT: BitTorrent for C - small - fast - clean (Now Versio
I guess it was a false alarm. All clear in the Empire State Building.
How many New Yorkers does it take to change a light bulb?
God knows, they keep jumping out the window when it gets too hot
What's the number one drink served on United Airlines?
Flaming Manhatten
What music do they play in the elevator in the WTC?
Jump and It's Raining Men
What colour were the pilots eyes?
Blue. One blew this way the other blew that way
What team does Osama bin Laden support?
The New York Jets
Who are the fastest readers in the world?
New Yorkers. Some of them go through 110 stories in 5 seconds
Where do Americans go on vacation?
All over Manhatten
How many Americans died in the WTC yesterday?
Who gives a fuck
It would be interesting to see what would actually happen if a politico called for forgiveness and love rather than revenge and hatred. I would vote for them. I know many people that I know think that this retaliation is not going to be pretty.
This is a letter that I wrote to Dubya. They are christian in nature, but a little religion never hurt anyone, just those that do atrocities in the name of religion...
"The call of the unwelcome bird is heard on the chimney stack. Bushels of wheat will rise so high. As a result man will devour his fellow man."
-- Nostradamus
Christ said, as he was dying on the cross, "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do." Last night, I used those words to ask for prayers for the terrorists, but this are not fitting with the context that Christ called them in. Those words are more fitting for those of us that are calling for revenge, as Christ was referencing the mob that called for his death, and the leader that allowed it.
Correct. No afterlife, no reward system... Because we do not need the fear of eternal torture and punishment to tell us NOT TO DRIVE PLANES FULL OF PEOPLE INTO MASSIVE POPULATED BUILDINGS.
At the risk of being labeled a racist, it seems to me the US should strictly limit the availability of all high-tech training (including such things as flight instruction, graduate study, and high-tech internships) for all non-US citizens. Why must the US continue to be the training grounds for the world's terrorists? God knows we have problems as it is with our own citizens. Maybe it's time we close our ridiculously porous borders to foreigners who seek to come to the US only to take advantage of our advanced technological facilities and educational opportunities.
Many here have said life as we know it will definitely change in the US. Let that change start by restricting our borders before restricting our freedoms.
we don't steal freedom and peace.
i admit we exploit the lack of freedom and peace in some places. but we're also trying to export our wealth. just look at nafta. we take short term sacrifices in the hopes that everyone will gain in the end. Countries that don't have the wealth of natural resources that we have should be thrilled that there is a place that consumes enough to pay them for some of their human resources. So we don't pay them much, but that wealth will grow over time. Other nations let us screw with them because without us they'd be more fucked than they already are. We should probably do less screwing, at least in any military sense, because it rarely turns out well. Nonetheless, when we go against the community of nations, we are often right.
...I might question America's respect for human life.
I remember seeing IR footage of an Apache attack on a radar station. The mission should have been complete, the Iraqis were running for their lives from the burning buildings. It was pitch black. Against the US apache pilots using IR vision and 30 mm automatic cannons they stood no chance. They wouldn't have even known what direction the attack was coming from.
You're a 17 year old conscript. You're in a trench, you want to surrender. Instead the Americans drive an armoured bulldozer along the line of the trench burying you all alive.
The war is lost and the Iraqi army is in disarray, you've lost your weapon and are escaping on the back of a packed cattle truck. American A10 tank busters drop napalm on the truck. Everyone is burned alive.
The United States suffered 148 killed in action, an estimated 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died (killed by the armies of elected governments, not terrorists).
Instead of talking of making no distinction between terrorists and those who harbour them, GWB should ask why people are willing to harbour them, and whether America could do anything about it.
I respectfully disagree. I am respectful because I think that the basic problem is understood by you. No quantity of military response can crush a well-organized and motivated group of terrorists willing to sacrifice their lives in attacks.
There are some things that can be done (and may be done to some small extent). Middle Eastern nations need to be given an actual helping hand which will help bring about real economic and social independence from the Western powers. This is important because it targets the motivational aspects of terrorism.
The limiting factors of terrorism are motivation and finances. Looking at the root causes may enable us to win the war without military involvement (sort of like the cold war).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
As a former army intel pilot, I was trained to deal with rapid loss of cabin pressure - unless a front windshield was blown out there is no way a small arms weapon will create a hole that will do anything more than start a slow leak in pressure.
I have to admit that I hadn't thought about it when I was flying, but a technique might be to dump the cabin pressure to about 12-15k feet ASL thus immobilizing cabin occupants, but not killing them (unless you were up there for a really long time). The trick would be to shut off any O2 through the cabin masks.
Also closed circuit tv within the cockpit monitoring the cabin would also be good.
Finally, it is a really bad idea to lock the pilots inside the cockpit with no possible way for anyone to get in. Maybe an alternative would be a situation where one pilot would have to be actively preventing the door from opening by using an emergency hijack lock, ie holding a spring-loaded deadbolt in the locked position. This would prevent the unlikely event of three crewmembers in the cockpit having simultaneous heart attacks being locked inside.
The most remarkable thing about America, the thing that has gone hand in hand with the legend of a golden land, has always been the ability of its people to stand together, fierce and undaunted, in the face of overwhelming danger, and triumph through unity. The words, "the American spirit," are synonymous with resilience, with determination, with the willingness to place oneself on the line for family and country and the ideal of liberty. Even in the face of disapproval, of anger, of ridicule from our global neighbours, America has been the strong right arm unafraid to carry or to use the big stick when others were sidestepping a growing problem. The phrasing is not, nor has it ever been, "Give me popularity, or give me death." It's a role that all of the world at large has at times, been grateful to let America assume, all the while not being above sitting back from the sidelines to comment and criticize. It is also a role that America as a nation has perhaps become too accustomed to accepting.
Myself? I would be amused, I think, to see America withdraw all its aid, all its support, all its interference, and fortify itself here, at home. Perhaps it is time, to let the rest of the world fend for themselves. To build our defenses and take our turn at sitting back, looking on, to criticize the performance of the rest of the world. There are children starving here at home, after all; there is no shortage of ways to mend our own fences and tend our own orchards. Make a direct incursion, and you will be struck down. We will not interfere in anyone else's conflicts; deal as best you can. What say you, world? Is it time Uncle Sam retired, and became a father, dedicated only to those within his fences?
We shall find peace. We shall hear angels, we shall see the sky sparkling with diamonds. - Chekov.
The major television networks suspended competition, agreeing to share all footage gathered during the terrorist attacks and their aftermath, on suggestion of "60 Minutes" creator Don Hewitt.
Well done.
In order to be a terrorist and be able to justify the lives taken, I think one has to be willing to die-- this does not mean that they always sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks, just that they are willing to die for their cause. And killing bin Laden may turn him into a martyr-- is that what we really want?
But, that resolve only lasts as long as the terrorists truly believe in their cause. Target the root economic reasons for terrorism, and then when you target the terrorists themselves, the causalties really begin to take their toll. No more people start taking up the cause. And financiers start dropping off... Money and resolve are the limiting factors of terrorism and these are induced by economic factors.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I read an article earlier this evening on TechTV indicating that the New York Red Cross is in serious need of an enormous list of hardware, peripherals, consumables, and software to help facilitate their field operations, many of which are being carried out by paper. They also need Microsoft and Citrix certified volunteers. The list ranges from entire systems to network hubs, Cat5 cable, scanners, handhelds, and even things like diskettes and tie wraps.
I wrote to the contact person to verify this, and I have just heard back from her; apparently the story is entirely true, as she has asked me to phone her in the morning.
If you are looking for a way to help that is relevant to what you do and who you are, this certainly looks likely.Anne
Here are the texts of my message to Ms. Webman and her answer to me:
-----Original Message----- From: Anne Madison [mailto: ]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:18 PM
To: dwebman@webmanassociates.com
Subject: Story on TechTV
Sorry to break in on you like this.
I am reading an article from TechTV that indicates you're in need of hardware and equipment. A detailed list is provided in the article. The URL is: http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/showtell/story/ 0,23008,3347294,00.html
If you're still in need of these things, a group of us here in Baltimore would like to help. We are wondering if the list is still current, and while we don't have a wealth to expend, we would like to try our utmost to cross at least one item off your list. If you could ask someone to let us know that the story is correct, and where and how to send the items, we would be grateful for the opportunity to assist in some small way.
Thank you for taking the time to read this. God bless!
Anne K. L. Madison
Ann,
The story is true. We will have a better sense of what has been donated by tomorrow morning. Would you be kind enough to call me in the morning and I will see what is left on the list.
Thank you!!!
Dorothy
Dorothy Webman, D.S.W.
President/CEO
Webman Associates
dwebman@webmanassociates.com
4 Brattle Street, Suite 207
Cambridge, MA 02138
(617) 864-6769 [Telephone]
(617) 492-3673 [Facsimile]
New York Office:
1650 Broadway, Suite 701
New York, NY 10019
(212) 459-0944 [Telephone]
(212) 586-4306 [Facsimile]
DUCT TAPE: The Election Supervisors' Secret Weapon
MSNBC said that One Liberty Plaza where Nasdaq is located has a crack in it. They mentioned some other building too.
I know it's 4, but it should be 5
For thirteen hundred years the Islamic faith has been one of peace, civilization and high culture. The Quran condemns the killing of the innocent. It condemns suicide in any form. It condemns the degredation of women.
True enough, Muslims have often proven more tolerant than Christians, and the Koran, like the Bible, says some admirable things. But, like the Bible, the Koran also says some fairly vicious things- "Idolatry is worse than bloodshed" is the one that sticks in my mind. Idolatry, from the perspective of Islam, includes all trinitarian forms of Christianity. Obviously we should not be blaming these particular attacks on Islam as a whole, but it is also unfair to say that "true" Islam is peaceful while the terrorists' faith is twisted-
each version is as philosophically (in)valid as the other, by the very fact of being founded on faith. In this case both facets of Islam are to some extent justified by scripture, as well.
They use things like religion and nationalistic pride to give credibility to their actions.
This seems unlikely. The fact that their beliefs are horrifying does not mean that they are not heartfelt. Are we to assume that apparent religious devotion is a mere facade being used to cover their true goal, dying in suicide attacks? Was apostolic Christianity just a cover for a bunch of crucifixion fetishists? And so on...
Yes, lots of them. Starting with the huge number of false positives generated by existing systems and the hell that the victims go through (and sometimes the legal minefield that the FRS operators tread). Moving on to the possibility of wearing masks to falsely incriminate people and/or disguise terrorists, technology which the terrorists have and most other people do not.
The answer is not in more security. One answer would be to stop meddling in other people's politics. Another would be to think about the fact that Israeli airliners basically don't get hijacked because the hijacker would be dead before they finished their first threat.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
This article claims that there is very large (> 1 billion USD) amounts of gold stored in a vault under the WTC towers.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
What we need is for Bush to countermand the executive order banning assassinations. This attack was precipitated by one person leading a small organization. Military strikes will cause civilian casualties which make us no better than the terrorists. Assassination isn't brutal in this situation, it's justified.
We might not even have to do it ourselves, if we offer a big enough reward for the heads of those responsible. Would $10 million do? How about $100 million? No matter how dedicated and fanatic your gurads and followers are, for enough money some one will pull it off. $100 million is peanuts compared to the cost of a large military response.
I think the best way for the American people to feel avenged though would be the capture of those responsible followed by a trial, and if found guilty a televised public execution. They talked about it doing that for McVeigh..
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
Good evening, passengers, this is your captain speaking, we are about to touch down at... ooh, why has the windscreen suddenly gone blue?
Cracker paradise. You too can run Jumbos and WBJ's around major airports armed only with a cracking toolkit and a pointing device?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
is hardly just a muslim problem, take a look at America, or just about any other country for that matter
Absolutely right. The same tactic worked so well for Neville Chamberlain and later the French against the German threat that America would be foolish not to follow so enlightened a path. Hell, I never did understand why your country declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor, and far fewer died in that attack. Those that did would have passed away of old age by now anyway.
Some incredible footage can be found in the video section of www.consumptionjunction.com . They also harbor all sorts of objectionable material, so click carefully.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
I personally know a very pretty 55kg (110lb) flight attendant who could stuff your feet into your ears before you could blink.
``It's not the size of the [subject] in the fight, but the size of the fight in the [subject] that counts.''
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
don't leave this comment to languish
don't think you are superior in any way to those cowardly attacks, civilians are civilians
This is the first link I got after typing "Koran" into google:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/
"Me and my girl named bimbo . . . limbo . . . spam" - Captain Beefheart.
1) You will be destroyed. 2) You friends will be destroyed. 3) Your family will be destroyed. 4) Your relgion will be destroyed.
I'm sure the nut jobs in the Middle east think the same way. But there's a critical difference:
We have the means to do it. And damnit, the Constituion of the United States is clear the primary job of the government, the PRIMARY job is to defend the US.
if that is your attitude, you're right, there's a critical difference, and that's NOT that you're not a terrorist
killing civilians is a terrorist action, not to mention cowardly
go ahead, beat the hell out of the defenceless, if it makes you feel like a man (hmm, sounds just like a wife beater)
I want to point out that example of Free press.
That's not exactly true.
Countries with established free press - yes. But during the last 10-15 years many countries just started developing that. And what I see (using Russia as example) is that many people, especialy over 50, tend to keep their minds shut. They can not apprehend what "free" is. And no matter how much money and effort you spend telling them what it is, they will still believe everything they see in newpapers and TV ("But TV just said that!") and still will blame everything on somebody else they were taught to blame at.
And it's even worse when many meople can not quite educated in politics/economics. In russia that resulted in very unfair business development and pretty sad elections results.
Now, take all that to the extreme of some thirld-world countries.
bad moderation
Middle Eastern nations need to be given an actual helping hand which will help bring about real economic and social independence from the Western powers. This is important because it targets the motivational aspects of terrorism.
What exactly do you mean by "helping hand"? I assume you mean financial aid of some sort.
Threatening and carrying out criminal acts upon others in order to get them to give you share of their wealth has a name. It is called extortion.
the LAST INSTANCE OF "TERRORISM" ON A US FLIGHT WAS IN 1989
Maybe so, but we've had an average of one every three years since then.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
"The best laid plans of mice and men gang oft agley..." - ROBERT BURNS
that is their purpose, We CAN however prevent that greed from influencing our GOVERNMENT, which is supposed to be a HUMANISTIC institution. The problems today are very similar to the conditions prevalent just prior to the US revolution, the Hudson company, and others were given carte blanch with people and land by a distant crown. Today corporations are given cart blanch with people and land by a distant government hiding behind a huge wall of functionaries.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
because slavery is so much better behaviour than terrorism
wake up
They took a chance which insured their deaths and probably saved the lives of hundreds, or thousands, because their aircraft did not hit its intended target.
There is an empty crypt at the tomb of the unknown soldier. Remains from flight 93 should go there. They made the ultimate sacrifice for their country.
However, I am aware that this was a terrorist action. Though terrorist actions are reasonably infrequent and small in the United States usually, other countries have much more frequent attacks. If the United States does not retaliate in some form, it will look as if there is no down side [to a terrorist, mind you] to going out and attacking. If we do not retaliate, we would open ourselves up to much larger possible problems. Also, Bush has already announced he will go after whoever did this.
Since there will be a retaliation from the United States at some point, it is my hope that we will be quite careful in what we do. Despite the fact we have NATO behind us, I think a war would be risky, especially since [according to an article from MSNBC"On Tuesday, a senior U.S. official told MSNBC.com that "no option has been taken off the table." Asked if that included nuclear weapons, one senior official said: "I said no option is out of the question. That's precisely what I mean." "] the possibility of a nuclear retaliation has not yet ruled out. I am aware many of our officials have been speaking out of hurt for loved ones, out of anger, and most importantly out of terror. To act out of terror or anger would be quite dangerous, for inside intense emotions people are not usually at their most rational.
Bush and many others have already previously said to Afghanistan that if while they were harboring Osama bin Laden he caused trouble they [the US] would consider it an *act of war* from Afghanistan. Think about that. An act of war.
One strong concern about war for me is that, as like many others, I have many friends of drafting age who I would like to see alive for quite some time thank you very much should drafting come into consideration again. Most importantly though, I don't like the possibility of a war now. As we know, technology has reached such a place that a world war [which is what a war would most likely turn into, as we have NATO's support since they invoked Article 5] has the potential to be quite deadly for, well, the entire world. If people were to start biological or nuclear weapons, all hell would break loose not just on humanity but on the ecosystem. Needless to say, I do not support a war.
I find it interesting that the US has changed policy regarding terrorist actions when Bush said last night "We will make no distinction between the terrorists who commit these acts and those who harbor them." In the past the US has done more of what I'd like here, they've tried to take terrorists to court.
It will be interesting seeing how everything unfolds. Let us hope it does so as peacefully as possible.
There will be further attacks, their magnitude is beyond me.
The US will attempt to identify the organization behind this attack and any following attack.
If the organization is found to be Osma Bin Laden, the following is my best guess as to what will happen-
I am fairly confident that the US has a good idea where Osama Bin Laden is located. They may claim not too, but I am sure they have a good idea. Already rocket attacks are reported in Kabul. I have little doubt this is due to American influence, particulary the CIA's. The CIA is notorious for influencing various foreign activities, most notably coups and wars and due to the Afghanistan/Russian was we already have a good share of influence there.
The first objective will be to destroy Osama Bin Laden and his "army". Unfortunatley Afghanistan is not located in an ideal geographic location (surrounded by Iran, Pakistan and other such nations) for a military campaign. Also, this is not the friendliest of countries.
"Afghanistan was invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union in 1979. The USSR was forced to withdraw 10 years later by anti-communist mujahidin forces supplied and trained by the US, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and others. Fighting subsequently continued among the various mujahidin factions, but the fundamentalist Islamic Taliban movement has been able to seize most of the country. In addition to the continuing civil strife, the country suffers from enormous poverty, a crumbling infrastructure, and widespread live mines. "
However, as you can see America already has some friendly forces (the mujahidin) in the area. Again, do you think its coincedence that Kabul was attacked this afternoon?
I digress. Osama Bin Laden will most likely be hiding in a bunker built somewhere in Afghanistan. If the location of this bunker is know it will surely fall prey to a wide assortment of American missles. However, again, Afghanistans geographic location creates problmes that would hinder extended attacks.
Bombs designed to destroy hardened bunkers, "bunker busters",must be delived via jet. To get to Afghanistan the US aircraft and missles must cross through Pakistanian airspace. During the 1998 missle attacks by the United States against Osama Bin Laden, 70 to 80 cruise missle made their way across Pakistanian airspace leading Pakistan to file a complaint to the UN. While this complaint did not lead to anything significant, an extended campaign in this area could cause major issues.
Along with Osama Bin Laden, the US will strike at Afghanistan for sponsoring such activities. Potential targets include weapons factories, military installations (notably SAM and radar sites), fuel depots, bridges, etc. The objective would be to cripple terrorist activities in Afghanistan and to generally dent the economy of the nation. I have no doubt there is a list of potential targets being generated as I write this. Once the list of targets and objectives had been generated the attack would be launched and most likely would be over in a period of hours, possibly days but not extending into more than a week. The attack would probly consist of Tomahawk cruise missles laden with conventional warheads striking various targets spread throughout the area.
For reasons mentioned above, an extended campaign would be very tricky and would be the most likely canidate for causing an escalation in hostilities. I predict that any attack by the US against Afghanistan will be extremely swift and will last but hours.
Surrounding nations will object, but no official action from any such nations will occur.
Finally, I predict that US sponsored guerilla activities will heighten in the region. We will see an increase in violence in Afghanistan as things progress.
Attacking Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan is a tactical and political issue that could reach potentially deadly levels. I am very interested to see what happens if Afghanistan is indeed held responsible.
Unfortunatley the result of any action by the US will be further terrorist attacks. This is almost a given. Also, any attack we make will not make up for what occured this morning. Nothing aside from a full scale retaliation can appease the anger that has filled America.
That is my speculation for now. I am way to tired to continue so I will stop here. There is more, but I will save my insight for later.
Until later. If you would like to read more spectualtion check out http://www.foggymyst.com
This profile on Bin Laden explains that his father's contruction company is the source of his wealth. There is also an explanation of al Qaeda, his terrorist organization.
Read on an australian news site http://www.news.com.au that the Empire state has been cleared due to a bomb threat. Have not found any info anywhere else. Anyone know anything?
"Patience is a virtue, afforded those with nothing better to do." - I don't remember
Seems that this rapper or group knew something about the WTC event-- their new cd cover coming out this month http://www.fabulamag.com/music/music3.html does anyone know about this
Yesterday I stated that a US strike against Afghanistan would have two goals: Destroy the terrorist leader Usman Bin Laden and cripple Afghanistan's military/terrorist activities. If the strike were to be along the same magnitude as the previous strikes against Afghanistan I predicted we would see a short offensive consisting almost entirely of cruise missles. I also predicted that this retaliation would fall very short of what Americans would consider ample punishment. Any offensive would undoubtley result in heightened tensions in the Middle East, price hikes at the gas pump and further terrorist attacks.
Today I will focus on the possibility that the US will retaliate with a much harsher, colder offensive- which as events unfold is becoming more plausible.
A large scale retaliatory attack would have the same goals as the aforementioned attack: Destroy the terrorist leader Usman Bin Laden and cripple Afghanistan's military/terrorist activities. The difference would be the extent to which this objective is carried out and an extended effort to remove the Taliban goverment (which is apparently sympathetic with terroists). My previous prediction may temporarily stun or slow terrorism but it would surely not stop it. In fact it may provide more fuel for the fire. A larger scale attack would involve severley damaging the Afghan goverment and its military as well as areas of finical importance. This may slow terrorism, or it may increase it. I dont know.
Unfortunatley, no allied nations border Afghanistan. Due to this we are nearly guarenteed an air war which depends wholely on our ability to defeat the Afghan air defenses. In order to carry out air attacks, coalition aircraft must tresspass through another country's airspace, either Pakistan or Iran. In this case it would most likely be safer to go through Pakistan as we have done before, but Pakistan could become hostile-- although I doubt this will occur. Keep in mind that Pakistan is the only goverment that recognizes the Taliban goverment in control of Afganistan so one could easily deduct they are near allies. To what extent Pakistan would defend its airspace, to what extent it would aid Afghanistan and to what extent the United States would violate it Pakistani airspace is anyones guess. I can imagine the Afghan goverment demanding the Pakistani goverment shoot down American craft. I can also imagine a potential political and possible physical conflict developing over this issue.
A ground war is almost totally out of the picture. Again, to get troops into Afghanistan would require penetrating another country's air space. Furthermore, a ground war would be dangerous at best as Afghanistan has already been host to a 10 year war meaning veteran guerillas are in abundance and worse still is the area littered with mines.
So in summary, an extended campaign against Afghanistan would surely be air based. It would bring up many issues for Pakistan and their relations with Afghanistan and would surely make the area "hot" as things became hostile. Ground assault is almost completley out of the question. However, other nations siding with Afghanistan could complicate the issue beyond all reason and lead to a greater conflict that could dwarf previous conflicts in the Middle East.
I guess we'll see what happens.
You missed the references to Russia and China? Shall we dwell on stuff like the Harrier jets from Britain? Or some of the incredible space stuff that Japan have been up to, on a shoestring budget? To quote Son of Naked Vicar on ballet dancers, ``Our poofs'll beat your poofs any day!'' The point is not that Oz is great (hey, I like it), but that everybody has their strong points, their own individual greatnesses. To hear many (far from all) citizens of the USA speak, you'd think that everything worthwhile happened in North America, except for some of the really cold bits.
You've got that ass-backwards, as the previous respondent pointed out. The real reason is that the politicians we haven't jailed are too lily-livered to do much of anything. Indonesia sneezes, they whimper and grovel.
Unfortunately for this argument, the interests are almost always corporate, and it often comes out in the wash (alas, too late) that the interests were more or less deliberately put at stake, or the official reasons are covering a lot of dirty dealings of one form or another.
This gives the majority of Americans a very bad name in other countries. Which is a shame, because many, many Americans are helpful, humble, honest people.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
This is exactly why I can't stand Christians
The fact hat I can use google?
Writers imply. Readers infer.
>>>
The reason that these terrorists are willing to die isn't common to their culture. It's common to any military establishment. The purpose of training soldiers is to get them to do things rational people would not normally do. We train our soldiers this way, and every army in history had to lead men, who had a better chance of dying than surviving into a battle. In war there is an expected loss of life on all sides, everyone involved is aware of this.
>>>
When the planners of this attack were training the volunteers, they didn't say,
"This mission will be dangerous, and there is a chance you will die. Some of you will not return."
Rather, they were told,
"This mission will require your death as a condition of its success. On the morning of September 11, you, sitting right ther in your military fatigues, you will die. And so will you and you and you."
Suppose the United States had at its disposal four unarmed jet airliners, fully fueled in a Kabul airport, each with an American crew in standard airline uniform, no parachutes. Assume no anti-air defenses. Also assume no passengers aboard. Just waiting to take off.
I'll just leave the rest of this scenario as an exercise for the reader.
Subject: view from a new yorker...
the numbness is setting in... im looking at my family right now, each with
that depressed face one gets on the 2nd day of a funeral....
there is a depression hitting this city like you wouldnt believe.. everyone is
just.. blah at this point.. its beyond even the point of saying "i cant
believe it" its just a numbness... a blackness.
there were slight racial incidents... my neighborhood is very near to an arab :( - well as the
neighborhood, coincidentally only a few blocks from the mosque (sp?) where the
original 1993 bombing was planned... anyways, there have been sirens and lots
of police activity over there.. so far i have heard of a car being set on fire
and a muslim beaten, but not killed... i think when the shcok wears off
tomorrow, and people become increasingly angry at the growing number of death
reports.. or when the stupid media starts showing bodies or body parts - the
same as they keep sensationalizing the clips of people jumping out... as if
thats something we need to see 17 times in one news report
anger increases tomorrow, i fear common sense will not control people's actions
tomorrow... hopefully people can keep their senses, and not turn into an
LA-riots style race war.
There are still particles floating in the air, and i am 4 miles away, across
the river. there is a 1/4 inch thick layer of dust from the collapsed
buildings.. there is also a burning tire smell in the air.. just hanging
there..i find myself wishing for a breeze.
stories of the few recovered survivors are filtering through, and there are
"mental health crisis hotline" flyers posted all over NY...
i personally dont even want to go to sleep.. im haunted by images, and today
has been just a series of moments.. i have no sense of a continual and
coherent passage of time today... just a series of isolated moments and
emotions... this is the strangest feeling i have had. i decided to write this
letter after i realized i had been sitting at my keyboard just staring at the
computer screen for 10 minutes.. not doing anything.. i sort of zoned out.
its gotten to the point where we have recieved so many phone calls from crying
relatives and friends that i dont even want to pick up the phone anymore.
no one is crying anymore... their eyes are sunken in and swollen to show they
had been crying the whole day.. but not now... its a mental, emotional, and
physical weariness.
everything south of 34th street in manhattan is closed tomorrw. the rest of
manhattan is going to be "business as usual."
my fraternity brothers who own a hosue right nea the brooklyn bridge are
telling me about the HUGE amount of commercial truck traffic into the city
across the bridge. construction support and 18 wheelers full of rescue and
recovery materials are working their way down... its sort of like that scene
from "godzilla the movie" where the u.s army takes over nyc.
stored i shopped in regularly are gone totally..
people who are trapped in the rubble are calling the authorities from their
cell phones!!! As the fire was still burning and fear of a gas explosion or
further collapse was present - rescue workers have not gotten to the "ground
zero" of the towers... however the surrounding rubble is being searched.
a few of the people who were calling earlier from their cell phones are feared
dead nwo from smoke inhalation.
the national guard is a strong presence in nyc right now - and the scene of
standard issue cammo gear and soldierly movements in and about the city is such
a surreal and unfamiliar site...
most major subway train lines are not able to get into manhattan from brooklyn
tomorrow... the trade center was above one of the largest hubs in the NY subway
system... all the major lines from brooklyn met there, and then proceeded to
ther respective courses uptown or crosstown... this major station of course
collapsed once the building collapsed...
my brothers car was rear-ended by a police vehicle that started sliding out of
control on the layer of ashes (as thick as 2 inches deep around 34th street
(more than a mile away from the immediate crisis)
and right now i feel myself getting struck with that numbness i spoke about.. i
think i'll go and try to get some sleep right now... but just thought i would
update you on the local condition here in nyc... from a ny'er
-Steve 98 TJ
My heartfelt sympathies go out to all those who are directly affected by this tragedy.
There are no borders in a religious war...
Check this: Muslim pupils attacked in Australia
Particularly: "Meanwhile, Mr Deen criticised Islamic students who were cheering as television images of the plane crashes played at a Queensland university library yesterday."
I assume we'll be deporting the little darlings at the first opportunity?
How about creating an air-born police force under the control of the FAA, armed with fighter-type aircraft capable of operating well on jetliner-type speeds as well as a bit faster. These planes would not carry missiles but would carry guns designed to cause minor damage to a rogue aircraft.
In the event where an airline veers too far off its course, these interceptors would escort the plane down to land at the nearest airport.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
This is exactly why I can't stand Christians
The fact that I can use google?
Or the fact that I can't seem to type?
Writers imply. Readers infer.
The US spends roughly 3 to 6 billion dollars a year in material, finance, and consulting support to Israel. That number changes slightly now and then, given the broad range of support. The highest of any foreign nation (Egypt is second, at around 2 billion).
Total US expendature in foreign aid is 6 to 12 billion dollars, again, varying a little each year.
Foreign Aid altogether accounts for 1 percent of the national budget.
The US supports Israel because we have a significant portion of Jews. We do not provide direct military aid because we also have a large population of Muslims.
The only thing this attack will do in terms of foreign policy is raise the total amount of funding spent vis-a-vis Israel and the total budget of US intelligence agencies in general, as we dedicate more intelligence resources to assisting Israeli counterterrorism efforts.
I can think of a few simple steps:
Determine why the terrorist group is performing these acts of terror, and who supports them
Address the issues of the supporters of the terrorists, so that the terrorists lose their broader support.
Lawfully persue and openly prosecute perpetrators of terrorism.
If you're going to claim the moral high ground, make sure that each of the actions you take is moral and legal.
I've walked through Anzac Cove, Lone Pine, US Civil War sites, Pearl Harbour, Normandy, Flanders Fields, Dresden, Ypres, Dachau and many more war sites. I've seen the names of my countrymen younger than I fall simply because we as a species have not grown up. It saddens me that we have to fight again and again just to learn that same lesson.
Lest we Forget
It may sound sort of odd, but I was wondering if there were any other examples of this sort of thing out there.
Here in Chattanooga (TN) the citizenry's been fighting with the local government over a proposed city budget which has as one of its major components the largest property tax ever levied in this area. Now this was being fought on the same principles as always, namely "Hey, I don't want to pay anymore taxes!" and "But it's for the children!"
Anyway the point of all this is that there was a vote scheduled for the city council meeting Tuesday night. Protesters/opposition/etc had planned to show up in force...
But then all hell broke loose.
Like everyone else we were stunned... glued to our TVs, and frightened of what would happen next. Heck, they even closed down the local shopping malls at 2:00pm. All sporting events were quickly cancelled, and businesses closed down early. We all recovered quickly though, and soon the local bloodbanks had wait times of up to five hours as the citizens tried their best to do something to help.
But what did the local government do? Forged on ahead with the meeting, and also with the included vote... with almost no one in attendance since they had assumed (if only we'd all thought about what that breaks down into) that it would be put off until a more fortuitous time. Granted it was totally legal and within their rights to carry on with the meeting as planned... but it was wrong, and most assuredly done as a means to shield the proceedings from naysayers.
...
If that sounds like a rant, it really is I suppose. But mostly I'm just pissed off, and feel exceedingly disgusted with my local politicians for using a tragedy of this enormity as a means to stealth-vote their own agenda into place.
And it leads me back to the question, anyone else have an experience like this? Not anything to do with the politics of the tragedy itself, but using it and perverting the grief to further their own goals?
'Life is like a spoonful of Drain-O, it feels good on the way down but leaves you feeling hollow inside'
We should rebuild the towers as soon as reasonably possible; And use the skulls of bin laden , the palestinian assholes who were celebrating yesterday, and all the other assholes who gave succor to these terrorists.
Glass their fucking country from border to border, and make sure everyone knows why!
We need just one general to 'lose his cool' and go rogue for about ten minutes;
'Um.. Mr. Putin? Its George w. on the red phone. He says to pull all our troops away from the afgan border, and give them rad suits. No, I dont think its another drunk...'
Of course, that would be terrorism, I guess, but I think we would be able to live with ourselves.
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
Man, you people are absolute CNN-fed twits!
Is everyone's head so far up their butt that no one knows what the US is doing in Macedonia?
And how hypocritical it is to talk tough on terrorism yet actively arm, train and support others?
There was reports in European papers about the US airlifting a couple of hundred Albanian terrorists (and the two dozen US 'military observers') from a small Macedonian village where they were trapped.
The Albanians are launching mortar attacks on Macedonia from Kosovo on the border towns and how big is Kosovo? Size of Rhode island?
Youre gonna tell me that the US cant do anything?
Riiiiight.
The Albanians terrorists are armed and trained by the US. They are based in Kosovo under US protection and when their goose is cooked, the US intervenes.
F***!
We learned nothing from the Kosovo fiasco?
CIA papers before the Kosovo conflict (I guess those civilians that we kill deserved it or should we be just as equally callous and call our own people 'collateral damage'. That it the term we use when we bomb buildings, right?) called the Albanian terrorist group "one of the best armed and funded terrorists groups in the world"
A few months after that of course, our generals and sec.of state were having croissants in France with people who were wanted by Interpol (but protected by the US).
The same scenario that played out in Kosovo has played out in Macedonia and again economic blackmail and military might means that we have paved the way for terrorists and allowed more 21st century colonialism.
You can bitch all you want about terrorists you want but were part of the problem too.
Btw, depending which report you read, between 60 to 90% of the heroin bound for Europe passes through the hands of the Kosovo mafia.
Yeah...we also fight the War on Drugs here (and have more prisoners than any country in the world) but drug dealers elsewhere are our friends...just like theyve always been.
Scott Taylor who runs a Canadian military magazine http://espritdecorps.on.ca/ and is a no nonsense jarhead gives first hand account at how the US arms and trains terrorists in this article http://globalresearch.ca/articles/TAY108A.html
Yup, them damn terrorists.
I agree with you, We should go after the people who support and harbor them.
So how do we go about punishing ALL nations that protect and supply them?
zeke
Im pretty damn sure you didnt mean tolerant.
Ever talk to Christians in Israel?
Ever hear a leading rabbi in Jerusalem say that the sight of a Xmas tree is like seeing a swastika?
Oh yeah...they are diverse, as long as everyone is jewish...
Just like the KKK likes diversity as long as everyone is right.
Nice propaganda.
Try again.
I know probably no one will read this, but I felt like I should write it nonetheless. First, my condolences to all those who know people who were lost in the disasters Tuesday. I'm fairly sure no one that I know was near those areas, but still I can never remember being so shocked and sickened. The thing that bothers me most today, though, are reports of ignorant Americans who are terrorizing innocent Islamic citizens in America. The local news here in Louisville carried a story of a local Islamic woman who was told by the owner of a store that he was going to get a gun and if she didn't leave by the time he returned he would shoot her. The woman, of course, was completely innocent; in fact her sister was a victim of the attack on the World Trade Center. This sort of ignorant hatred disgusts me. In its own way, although on a smaller scale, this is just as evil and reprehensible as the terrorists attacks themselves. No form of bigotry should be tolerated. Let us judge the terrorists by their actions, not by their religious beliefs. And remember that even flag-waving, apparently patriotic citizens of the U.S. are just as much enemies of our country if they turn on their fellow citizens.
Matt Reece
They have been dealing with terror for a long time now. And while it may not be immediately apparent they have actually been extremely successfull, too. You just don't get to hear about all the terrorist attacks that were thwarted.
The measure mentioned by the previous poster has been in use for decades.
This showed up in my mailbox the morning of the disaster...
Eerie cooincidence? Evidence of Marchon Eyewear's terrorist connections? Psychic advertisers?
Don't get mad at Marchon's apparent bad taste. This ad was obviously planned, printed, and mailed before the tragedy at the World Trade Center.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
What can we do to make air travel safer?
Should we install cameras and run face recognition software with data on known terrorists to analyze all passengers boarding aircraft?
If the public is informed that this will be done, and no one forces you to travel by airlines (it is an elective activity and a private business transaction) then does this go too far in infringing on privacy?
Would this have any benifits, anyway?
I agree - the coverage was on the ball - althought I think that the usual /. banter could have been delayed for a day or two. I TRULY appreciated the consolidation (yes, even from Taco) of news websites I would not have had a prayer of gettin updates from. Kudos to all involved. I only wish they had stuck to it.
/. was able to supply us is the equivalent of "radio free europe" in the 40's. Regular programing was indeed suspended in order to bring current events into perspective. I think that the editor(s) should keep up the reporting, because we are the ones that will survice any catastrophe that will fall on our nation.
/. is to continue to be our news site, they should stay in the "groove" (sorry - old musician speak).
My continuing thoughts are that we are way far from being out of this yet, and the good reporting that
In my continuing efforts to contribute, I've been modded down to "basically a troll" (-1) because of it but guess what? I don't f***ing care! My oldest son is in the US Navy - my working life is in the tech world, and so is my other son's working life. If
Anything that happens to our beloved USA should be covered (with a vengeance) by slashdot. Only my $2.00 (inflation)
This is now not a rant. I'm done. (no fancy html)
db
Cig:
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How long were the planes in the air? I believe most of them more than an hour before they hit their targets. And since so many passengers used their cells to make contact - authorities were aware of the fact that the planes were being kidnapped. So why were there no military jets sent to escort them? It seems like there was no response at all here. Media it not covering it, all they say is: "the (911) operator kept talking until the crash..." or something similar. But did the 911 operator contact any authorities, and did anyone do anything? It seems like there were some serious negligence on the ground too. Or am I missing something?
You might say that nobody knew they planned to hit a target, yes, but after the first plane it was known what the terrorists were about to do, so shooting down the remaining planes would prevent this. Of course it's a hard decision, but if you have two evils, you choose the lesser one (the passengers would die in any case). And maybe there are ways (I'm just speculating here) to force a plane out of its course without shooting it down.
Is american security getting lame? What if the terrorists choosed to target some nuclear power plants? It seems like they could choose ANY target they wanted, and safely fly there and hit it. No interception whatsoever - kind of scary if you think about it....
Like everyone else, I've been watching the events of the last two days in shock, disbelief, anger, anxiety and sadness. We've seen the depths to which humanity can sink and the heights to which it can rise. We hope that the world never has to endure something like this again. We know that it probably will. I want to leave this discussion with a final thought.
In Vancouver's Stanley Park, behind the aquarium, is a column with the dates 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, as well as some names. They are names of Japanese Canadians who died in the service of their country. One of the names belongs to my grandfather's cousin. He served with the 50th Battalion, 4th Canadian Infantry division (Alberta Regiment) in WWI. He died on Friday, 26th October, 1917 and was buried near the town of Ypres in West Flanders.
Twenty-four years later members of his family (my family) are sitting in horse stalls awaiting relocation to a camp in the interior.
Please, please, please, do no take your anger and frustration out on your fellow citizens. They are not your enemy. They are your fellow countrymen and patriots. And they are hurting. Do not act out of rage, fear or paranoia. Don't look back twenty years from now and say "I can't believe something like that happened here". The time to prevent injustice is now.
Peace.
A note: I am on 22nd street in Manhattan (several blocks closer to the WTC.) There is a haze in the air, and a smell that would almost be reminiscent of woodsmoke... if you didn't know what it was. There's no ash on the streets, though. It's possible that this person may be speaking of 34th street in Brooklyn? I don't know.
So we give stuff to our friends. Does that make us responsible for everything they do? Probably not. I disagree with you wholeheartedly on the point of responsibility.
For arguments sake, say that you were my friend, and I gave you a gun, and you committed terrible acts of violence with it. Am I responsible for your actions? Or could it be you and you alone? I certainly could be said to have facilitated your actions in the giving of the gun, or if I sold it, or even if I allowed you to steal it from me...but who is responsible?
Big "what ifs" not withstanding, Israel is responsible for what Israel does, be it throwing around nuclear missles, bullets, rocks, or pebbles. To not understand that simple fact is to not grasp what "responsibility" really is.
Generations have come and gone and no "progress" (as you measure it) has really been made. It is really too bad everyone cannot make terrible mistakes and not live to regret them, but that is the way life is.
And someone has made a terrible, terrible "mistake" indeed, and now all that needs to happen is a "correction".
An eye for an eye scaled to the whole world would only render those with tragic learning disabilities wholely blind. Without such a scaling, the meeker half would be blind, and the more violent half would have carple tunnel syndrome from all the "wrist slapping" received.
When you act, you teach. What will a violent reaction teach us? What will it teach them? What will doing nothing teach us? And them?
Most importantly: what have their present actions taught us? If your answer is "not to help our friends", I think you may have a tragic learning disability.
...yellow number five, yellow number five, yellow number five...
I stumbled across a site that has tons of detailed reports, research, and studies about Terrorism and Counterterrorism. Many may have see nthis already but a quick search turned up no hits within ./ so here it is. The Oklahoma City National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism "is dedicated to preventing and reducing terrorism and mitigating its effects."
It has many links tons of Articles related to terrorism from various sources, Fact Sheets from Governments, Journals, Terrorism-related journals and magazines published by the United States, State Department and various Institutes. Information describing the lessons learned from past incidents. Reports on Counterterrorism and related reports from governmental and non-governmental sources. And an image gallery. This is definitely worth checking out.
Many are in HTML but most are in PDF foramt.
A few that I found interesting include On Terrorism's Trail: How the FBI Unraveled the Africa Embassy Bombings and "Combating Terrorism: In Search of a National Strategy" .
The URL again is http://www.mipt.org
ah yes lets believe you oh wise person.. so when are you coming out with youre next scientific theory? (obviously since you KNOW EVERYTHING).
difference between agnostics as compared to atheists is that agnostics dont claim to know bullshit.
Why does all of CNN's WTC-crash footage say "CNN Exclusive" on it?
is that you get to see when the information changed. You watch the flow of news change and clarify, and the same again with opinions.
in addition, I was happy to see many apologise for things they said when under emotional stress. Please don't let these posts be modded down, not everyone admits their mistakes, and it helps to cut down the flames
well done
The Turks eventually converted to Islam but they are not Arabs (Nor are the Kurds or the Iranians, for that matter).
In the 8th century, while Europe was in the very "barbaric" dark ages, Bagdad was one of the greatest cities in the world, with universities, and great centers of Europe. When Rome fell, Bagdad became the main center of Neo-Platonic philosophy. This golden age lasted longer than the European Rennaisance, to which it is comparable. One only has to read Heinrich Agrippa (a 16th century Neo-Platonist) to understand the Arabic influence in the European Rennaisance.
We are not Arab or need a highly structured, misogynistic culture to support.
That country, Turkey, you hate so much has had a woman in charge of it within the last ten years. Can you say the same of the US? And Qaddafi's bodyguards are women! In fact, if you read the Quer'an you will find that it emphasizes that women should be educated. This is so important to Islam that when Saddam Hussein wanted to restrict women's access to universities, the public outrage was so great that even as a dictator(!) he had to back down.
I am not a Muslim. However, I really hate it when uninformed people make wild accusations which are founded on misunderstanding and the more cheuvanistic actions of minority sects.
(I am actually more of a Neo-Platonist-- which owes much of its heritage to this Arabic golden age.)
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
When we (Israel) demolish a houe, it's because someone was using it to shoot at our citizens.
Following that bombing we hit (empty) Palestinians security buildings, not private homes.
I'm really getting sick of the media and the way they handle this and all major news events. A couple specific things that piss me off:
1. The Melodrama. This is already one of the biggest events of recent times. There is no need to play this up at all, it's already a huge deal. Yet every single news person feels the need to pile on the melodrama.
2. The Carnage Whoring. Who hasn't seen the film of the towers getting hit and later collapsing 500 times already? And from 50 different angles. And people falling from the building. Yet they continue to show it over and over and over and over again.
3. The over-coverage. The day it happened almost every fucking station was showing some kind of feed. Including MTV, VH1, and ESPN. And everyone except the major news people (ABC, CBS, CNN, etc.) were using feeds from other channels. CNN, HN, TBS, and TNT, for example, were all showing the exact same CNN feed. What's the point in that?! In today's newspaper, every singe section (including Style, Sports and even the kid's section) all had pictures of the WTC on the cover. People need something else to thing about, if only for a little while.
On a side note, something else that pissed me off in the Congressional resolution condemning the attack. Anothing fucking useless measure. If my house is burglarized, why should I gather my family members together to condemn the robbery?! The US was attacked, so of course everyone in the US is going to be against the attack! What's next? Passing a law to ban suicide bombing?
Here is something that is worth thinking about at a time like this.
please please please
this is a psychological change that will have a big impact on terrorism
I see a lot of "nuke em" going around(pick a country). Seems to me instead of nukin anybody maybe we should peace corp em. Think about it.
I was trying to think about it from the point of view of some one in (pick a country), and I'm pretty sure that when they think about their american "enemies" they are'nt thinking about most of the americans I know and love. My dad would start building a water line, my mom would want to feed every one in sight and get relly pissed off at all the needless pain. Aunt Angie would want to haul off the nearest mess and get things cleaned up. My neighbor Bob knows about the refugee camps so he does'nt waste food or anything else as a result, he'concerned about lifeboat earth,as am I.
None of the above gives a rats ass what color, religion, or language any one else is. But they all get mad at stupid needless pain and suffering.
Not many people I talked with today really know anything about the situation of poor people in any of these places. They they were amazed by the conditions most of the terrorist pool grew up in. (I only know one kid who had a auto rifle in his hands by 8 and he was from nam)
What would happen if you took 50 or so workin stiffs and plunked em down in all the refuge camps and beat up cities in country x and asked them to see if they could help out and make a list of the things that were needed. In a week they get $50,000 each to help whoever they can, no black market, no three letter agency BS, no top heavy beaurocracy, just your average american free (!) to help and get to know these people. Do you think everybody would learn something?
(what do you mean too much money? How about the rounds (Buck a round?) per enemy we are willing to spend? You got any idea how much yesterday cost?)
They would probably find out that not many americans like the way the fat cats run the show either.
Might make the difference. They don't know the states the way we know it.
We for the most part have never experienced what they go thru every day.
I don't underestimate anybody, and I certainly would'nt underestimate the ability or willingness of americans to set things right if they were given the chance.
Think about it...............
I posted something similar to this last night, but left out something rather important.
WARNING: This is a particulary grisly and morally iffy solution to problems of mideast born terrorism, but it has been shown to work in the past.
(NSA? Are you listening?)
Since it seems very likely that the perps in this little drama may well be personally identified by name and nationality, an inside out approach of sheer psychological terror at their end might prove fruitful, and has in the past.
(a) Find all of the members of the now dead perps' families. Kill them one by one. One family at a time. Take polaroids. Mail them all about. Do next family. GOTO 10.
(b) Locate all members of the aforementioned families' extended families. Repeat recursively.
(c) FINALLY.. Take out the leaders. Ship many heads and other anatomical features in boxes and jars to various high profile, carefully chosen recipients.
(d) Go silent. Say nothing. Smirk, maybe, but say nothing.
(e) Oh. I almost forgot.. If there was a way to defile the bodies, or the graves of the ancestors so as to jeopardise their experience in the beyond, or merely inculcate fear in those still living, I would do that too.
Techniques such as above have worked VERY well for Organised crime, and the KGB. They're godawfully realpolitik and amoral, but the body count is very low, and could, in a Duney sorta sense, be the more humane course, as insane as that sounds.
If I were the pres, and someone presented me with such a plan, folks, I'd have to give it some good, hard consideration.
Christ, I'm such a bastard. Maybe I've been reading ASR too long?
Brak: What's THAT?
Thundercleese: A light switch.. of TOTAL DEVASTATION!
Anyone ever think that another group is to blame here and that planting arabic flight manuals and the like would be an effective way to run cover for those ultimatly responsible?
What if an interested party is trying to spark an attack. Goverenment agencies must make sure that they are thorough in their investigation. If the United States were to attack a country such as Afganistan or Pakistan and they indeed had nothing to do with these attacks. This could cuase major concern for broadened and more serious attacks against the united states. Lets be thorough and not jump to conclustions.
And what, exactly, do you base this on? Which nation has "defeated" terrorism by doing nothing? Or is this perhaps nothing more than your arbitrarily fabricated theory?
Nearly all of us need to sit back and admit we have no information or basis to decide what the right response is. These terrorists aren't misbehaving children. Pretending they are is dangerous beyond measure.
The Global Consciousness Project has an analysis of the data streams at the time of the terrorist attacks.
Unselfish actions pay back better
Q: How many WTC workers does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None, they all evacuate before a second one blows...
Should NOT be used as pawns in war. Women, children and non-combatants are not targets.
Care about international law, it's trying to define humanity, ignoring it brings you one step closer to being an animal
but remember not everyone can access radio and tv
I have a feeling its american media in large part. Many americans just don't get the information about these sorts of things from CNN. For example, I think on Monday there was a news story on the Canadian CBC network about our trade minister in washington pleading with officials to reconsider the 19% duty they are schedualed to impose very shortly on our softwood lumber exports (so much for NAFTA). This has been a big story in Canada for a long time and we have won WTO decisions regarding this issue in the past.
What is particularly interesting about this report was that the minister had pleaded with the Washington Post to at least print a blurb about his visit to Washington, and asked CNN to discuss the issue on Hardline, and whatnot. But _NO ONE WAS INTERESTED_ . The Washington Post would not even print a blurb about this big and lingering story in Canada.
The point is that the average american has no idea what softwood lumber is or that a large portion of it comes from Canada. And a big part the reason is that American media was much more interested in Gary Condit than trade disputes with their biggest trading partner (despite Bushes snubbing of Canada in favor of Mexico last week).
Who's to blame? It's a tough question, but I sincerely believe American media and politicians do not necessarily reflect the values of most Americans, and I base this on the fact that I in no way feel that my politicians or media truly represent me here at home in Canada.
I'd also like to point out that over 200 planes were diverted to Canada which had been bound for the United States. By the news reports today, it sounds like many, many Canadians were helping out, taking these stranded passengers into their homes, and feeding them, and other things. When the head United States Transportation official was giving a speech about the situation, he did indeed thank Canada for our part in the efforts. I switched to CNN to see if was being carried live, and, of course, it wasn't. So again, this is not the average american, its just their media largely ignoring others. If theres one thing that comes out of this, I think its going to awaken americans to the realities of the world.
Jim, you have a very valid point, - Dave from Detroit...
not everyone has a credit card
Yes we all know that they took into custody some people that they believe are linked to Ladin and may have had something to do w/the attacks but they know apparently little at this point.
De facto, they no doubt pointed guns at them and asked if they'd like to come along--see, it was voluntary. But de jure, this is armed conflict and if they were knowingly involved, even tangentially, they are captured spies. They do *not* have POW status unless they were in uniform. Even a distinctive armband is enough, but it has to be obvious to plain sight.
I'm not sure exactly where the domestic legalities are since the US Uniform Code of Military Justice, or if that, or other procedural laws even apply where they are captured by civilian police. As far as international law goes, they may be summarily tried and shot (but not hanged unless they are convicted of war crimes). Of course, they would be far too valuable to shoot any time soon, but their status need not be that of criminals, and "arrest" may be inapplicable.
The US (and probably by extension 17 NATO nations and certain other allies) is now at war, even if we're not entirely certain how, with whom, whether it will involve a formal declaration, or what actual application of military force may ensue. It's a now different and rather more brutal world, and as a nation we've all but forgotten even the vocabulary of real war that brings ruin to our homeland.
Only problem is that you assume that the US is entirely correct in every action that it makes. I don't think I need to quote statistics on how greedy our country is. We also blindly condone all the Israeli atrocities while condemning the Palestinian efforts to fight back. Our economy and military in its present state is very agressive and is ultimately very destructive.
Perhaps we do need to change.
I am in NO way condoning the attacks, but in their minds, what they were doing was right. Just as we are expected to stand up for what you believe is right, you must expect everyone else to stand up for what they belive is right, and that we don't all have the same beliefs.
Were the hijackers "right" in killing countless innocent civillians? Of course not.
Is American policy "right?"
Well... I'll leave that up to you.
____________________________
What did the Buddhist say to the hot dog vendor?
"Make me one with everything."
please mod this up
http://www.r00tbeer.com/f/a&c/silk/gorillaladen.jp g
September 11th. 11 = one one. The twin towers standing as a monumental 11. The first letter in the word "Allah" looks like the number one. What cataclysmic poetry.
It was a DC-10. No matter, the guy that tried that was a grade-a screwball.. geez. =/
Rights and wrongs are often interpreted by the
beliefs of the person. While there are certainly
cases where the rights of one belief are the
wrongs of another, the killing of the innocent
and massive destruction and the impact on the
environment caused by this weeks terrorism on the
USA (not that the location matters) should
certainly be considered wrong by any person. I
honestly cannot imagine such a person or group of
people that would find acts of this nature right:
I think these people should be exterminated.
Anyone involved in the group of people that caused
this disaster should listen to U2's album "The
Joshua Tree" and really attempt to understand it.
This may take many weeks, but it is worth it.
While at the surface this album is musically and
lyrically excellent, the ideas behind it are even
stronger.
Yo Terrorists : Think about your actions.
Question everything and decide for yourself that
actions against other people are actions against
Earth itself and are therefore actions against
everything that you have. If you can manage to
commit heinous crimes then you can also manage to
do good in this world. Don't be wimpy.
I found this story pretty moving. A gossip columnist comments on how meaningless all the stuff she's built her career on is in the grand scheme of things. Talks about the future of celebrity and entertainment.
--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
> The only effective weapon against terrorism is to do absolutely nothing.
> Make any change at all in response, and you are instantly losing. Pandering to the desired effect, which is 'change'.
I don't know about the rest of you geeks but I learned in Junior High that ignoring attacks doesn't work.
Submission isn't good for a Junior High geek and it's not one whit better for a people.
Capitulation anyone?
I didn't think so.
These people commandeered aircraft with approx. 100 passengers min. each, presumably healthy enough to get on an airplane early in the morning - with plastic knives? What will we have to confiscate next - cig. liters, paper (Get back or I'll papercut you all!) Is it possible that there was a lack of... bravery on board 3 out of the 4 hijacked flights?
Note long before Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount the peace talks were tense but there was actually agreement on most points. Today both sides often express doubt about the other side's intentions at the time, but I believe they may have been genuine enough.
But the fact that there was agreement on most points only brought the remaining points of disagreement into sharper contrast. Central among them was Jerusalem.
Both leaders knew they would not have support from their people for anything that might be interpreted as concessions on Jerusalem. They also knew they have much more to lose than just politically - based on past experience they could literally lose their lives at the hands of the extremists of their own people.
So Yasser Arafat did the only logical thing, followed the only course of action that would not only keep him alive but also reap some political gain - blow up the talks and make it appear to be the Israeli's fault.
Sharon's visit provided a convenient spark, but it would have happened anyway.
Arafat had ordered the uprising. Palestinian television started broadcasting nationalistic songs and show old footage from the Intifada as it is of current events, well *before* the eruption. Activists of the PLO helped stir up the population and Presto! - you have a "spontaenous" response of outrage to the visit.
What was Ehud Barak thinking at the time? I don't know. I believe he saw it coming but tried to keep to the original course of action anyway. What else could he have done? What do you do when your mind tells you that it will not work, not thi time, but your heart tells you that you must have hope, that the chance for peace is worth taking this enormous risk to your country and to your people?
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
I've seen this suggestion a lot, and i've been wondering about the potential problems with it.
It would be hard to make these changes at this time, since the cockpit is so close to the cabin anyway.
It may be possible in the future, but it'll take a complex redesign. The pilots need access to the lavaratories and galleys (for obvious reasons. If they have their own separate area, that area needs its own bathroom and galley.) On long range flights, the crew is swapped out and replaced with a fresh crew usually sitting in the passenger cabin--now they will need their own special area separate from the cabin.
And then pilots do often enter into the cabin if there is something strange going on--they need to be able to walk to a passenger window and look at the wing...perhaps if the plane is on the ground during winter and they need to make sure the deicing is going well, or if the aircraft is in air and the engine is doing something strange, or there is a leak from the wing. The pilot needs to look at these things from the main cabin.
Finally, I believe that international air regulations make it so that the pilot is the only person on the aircraft who can arrest someone (like the captain on a ship.) In an air rage situation, the pilot has to get into the cabin to perform the arrest.
Whenever satellite dishes show up (from huts in the amazon jungle to beduin tents) the age of marriage goes up and the average number of children goes down. These two factors are well-known to be related to level of education, economic prosperity and inversely related to extremism.
These pictures reveal a horror from space of the dust and smoke still rising into the night sky off the ruins of the World Trade Center. http://www.spaceimaging.com/newsroom/attack_galler y.htm
Someone needs to find where bin Ladin's money is, and transfer it to the Red Cross's Disaster Relief Fund.
The US is (one of) the center(s) of the Christian world. Not only is a large percentage of our population Christian of one form or another, but our society and culture are very, very Christian based. Also the US culture is highly visible throught the world. Well, this makes us a prime target for those that don't like Christianity.
Sad but true. I've talked to vets of many wars, and often the story is that the Oz (or Brit, Rhodesian, name it) infantry would take a hill, give it to the Yanks, and then have to take it back again the next day. It often got so routine that both Oz and enemy soldiers would leave their gear on the contested hill - and share stuff - because they knew they'd be back for it next day.
I've also heard - from the horses' mouths - of times when Oz (or insert-name) troops and enemy would be involved in a firefight, a Yank group would approach, and both sets of combatants would go to ground until the group was well clear because the Yanks were just too damn dangerous to be near, bombing and strafing everything in sight if they got nervous.
OTOH, if you wanted something absolutely carbonized, you called in a Yank firestrike and stood well, well back.
The upshot is: in a real war, I predict that the USA would pound the pooh out of China from a long distance and then lose most of their troops in the cleanup. The obvious tactical approach would be to not have a cleanup. )-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
What they need is something like the Glaser Safety Slug [goldpaint.net]. Bullet does fairly well against humans but won't go through much else. For aircraft, you'd probably use the normal pressure version (the one for sale here is high pressure) which penetrates even less.
It just keep waiting to wake up... But no such luck. This is reality, and it has changed the world.
-Windchill2001 The One, The Only, The Cold...
Christ said, as he was dying on the cross, "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do." Last night, I used those words to ask for prayers for the terrorists, but this are not fitting with the context that Christ called them in. Those words are more fitting for those of us that are calling for revenge, as Christ was referencing the mob that called for his death, and the leader that allowed it.
There's a significant difference between Christ and those who ordered and allowed this to happen. I don't think I need to explain it to anyone.
This is so petty and predicatable of the sharon government and those who cower behind him.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Rhetorical Question: I can only wonder amidst all of the rumors of US military personnel being called up and sent overseas tonight if whatever retaliaion the US is planning is being carefully scheduled for primetime TV viewing?
The issue here is not what has happened or how it has happened.
The issue here is all about however hard you try, when somebody is prepared to even die, nothing can stop him.
If you look at the attacks in a larger view, the issue is not about cure by attacking those respnsible, its all about prevention.Prevention thro' stricter security, thro' intelligence is only a short term measure.
On a longer term, we need to achieve global peace. This cannot be achieved through bombing people or being vindictive. For every family that's bombed in Iraq or Afghanistan, the survivors will create such problems.
If US had not bombed Iraq or had not given arms to Afghans to fight against Russians, would this have happened? I am definite it would not
have happened... Again now, when they bomb the entire afghanistan, leaving out only some people with "the fire of revenge in their hearts", ain't all this expected? (yeah I know that's immature, but what else can you expect out of them).
My heart goes out to the numerous people killed in the process...
The total number of deaths in Kashmir thro' out the years is probably a huge multiple of the number of deaths this attack caused. All this time, the Internatioal community inclusive of the US has been advising restraint from the Indian side. Its time to practise what you preach, Uncle Sam.
I am an atheist, thank God!
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=93798
Well a good start would be to stop giving them money.
You might not want to hear it but in the'80s the US goverment supported Bin Laden to fight the Russians.
(note freedom fighter is a nice word for terrorist)
42
While traveling I have noticed that arab airlines normally have 2 plain clothed security guards on flights to help prevent possible hostage takeovers.
Also secuirty on airports is a lot more tight, it may be an idea for the USA to take a few leasons in security from the middle east.
I'd go further than you. Aside from the Vatican, there is no country more visibly identified with Christianity as the United States.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
www.stratfor.com has some interesting analysis
The obliteration of the World Trade Center, as well as the strike against the Pentagon, and the utterly needless deaths of those innocents in the planes turned missiles is something that I have been struggling to comprehend.
I have learned a great deal. We, the people of the United States of America, are responsible for a swath of violence and hate across the world, mostly in the wake of well-meaning but short-sighted policies designed to protect us from an array of threats from Communism to economic blackmail. Our leaders have made choices that have earned us deserved enmity. That is not to say that we are an unalloyed scourge upon the world. We have acted to protect our interests, as any sane country must, as well as what we saw as the greater interests of the free world. Given our status as superpower, our interests cover the entire globe and every conflict. Inevitably, those we oppose become our foes.
This in no way lessens the horror and sheer audacity of the terror perpetrated upon us. Issues of morality and justification aside, one who baits the tiger cannot expect anything but bestial fury in return. Factor into the equation the immoral slaughter of thousands of innocents without warning as the end result of a cold-blooded and calculated plan of terror, and the unsheathing of the naked blade of war is all but inevitable.
We have been engaged, around the world, in a number of battles and military actions since World War II. This attack upon our home presages the possible advent of the first real declared war, with no power or resource of the United States held in abeyance for concern of mercy. Those who perpetrated this attack cannot but have anticipated this response. I feel, surely, that they cannot have but have desired it.
Commit continual acts of blood and terror upon a country, and that country will stagger from the blows. Freedoms will be lost to expediency and need. Lines of social stress will flare as tensions rise. Inevitably, if no outlet for the strain can be found, the long slow onslaught of terrorism will bring a nation down - or warp it into something unrecognisable.
I watched the videos of disaster, from a score of angles and perspectives. Too, I sampled scores - thousands - of news stories, commentaries, posts, essays, and interviews. I have covered CNN.com to slashdot.org to CBC broadcasts to transcripts of interviews with terrorists to chat rooms and more others than I can remember. I have spoken directly with Americans and Canadians. I have sampled the opinion and thoughts of the world. All of it, searching for meaning.
This act was not unthinkable. The carnage was not unimaginable. This was a human act, carried out by human planning, directed by human will. All of it, birthed from a human understanding of something most people shy away from.
I have done my best to understand.
At first, I wanted revenge. I had fury-driven fancies of tank battalions driving across Afganastan, should bin Laden be at fault. Then I read, from the posts of people familiar with the region, of it's poverty. I read the CIA World Factbook entry on Afganastan.
To be blunt, from what I know, there isn't much there to bomb or blast. The people have had war for over twenty years, are dirt poor, and under the isolationist control of a fundamentalist Muslim faction that does it's best to deny them the benefits, amusements, and information of the West. Television is banned, along with a host of other things. Not that it matters much - no electricity.
No TV, no radio. Nothing remotely resembling a free press. I'm not even sure they have an unfree press. These poor bastards don't have any but the dimmest notions of what has been done to us, it's magnitude, nor the magnitude of what we could raise against them. They have been betrayed as much as we.
So, having come to understand who it is that massive American action in that poor blighted corner of the globe would be smiting, I came to hope for surgical strikes, as massive in their own way. Of course, that won't sate the American bloodlust, nor will a barrage of cruise missiles give us the confirmation of the eradication of a cancerous organization.
I came to wrestle with the question of having the stomach to watch our military force carve a bloody swath through a people who don't deserve another invasion to remove a man who has been waging a war from the shadows with religion and money. I hoped I would have the moral resolve to stand firm and let war be waged.
This didn't feel right. I spent another 12 hours trying to realize something fairly simple. I continued my reading and watching, canvassing any resource I found. In the end, I understood.
In a perfect world, were we a perfect people, we would absorb this violation done us. We would return, in a spirit of a peace, the violence in the form of aid and construction without taking resources both material and cultural in exchange. We would spend the long and difficult years, paying the high price in our lives and money, to rebuild shattered nations who we helped, with shortsightedness and poor thinking, to break. We would find those peoples who lived in fear, in the very grip of terror themselves, and raise them up. We would let them rebuilt while we took on our shoulders the brunt of the slaughter, so that they could raise forth new and free nations in the image of their own people. We would make terrorism needless in a world of understanding.
We are not a perfect people, and we are not living in a perfect world. It is not a question of wether I have the resolve to let justice be done. It is a question of my having the resolve to take a better path, to bear calmly as sacrifice the burden of horror while rebuilding the world.
I believed that I was a man of peace.
Let blood and fire reign down. Let us burn them out, whomever did this, and salt the earth with their blood, so that no son in the next generation may raise sword against us. Let this thing be done.
The truth of terrorism is that it is an act which creates terrorists.
I understand.
I hope that I am more alone that I suspect. I hope that cooler, saner heads than mine will prevail. I hope.
In July O7, I got a mac pro. There's no punchline. Just endless joy and wonder.
I think the US tried a similar plan in Vietnam. It didn't work. There was no way to separate out a particular minority of the people who would be the sole source of enemy support. It was too big a task to try and take on an entire civilian population numbering many millions.
It is also possible that only the British were competent enough to accomplish such a feat. (That same factor might bode ill for the US if it tries to base its strategy on its own version of special forces. It might be better to let the British SAS lead a particularly critical mission such as a direct assault to apprehend Osama Bin Laden.)
There is also no way the rest of the world would stand for similar measures today. It would be the United States that would be accused of establishing concentration camps regardless of what conditions the people were given. The forceful removal of an entire minority population solely based on race to a controlled environment would create a wave of comparisons to prior shameful US events such as the Trail of Tears or the Japanese-American internment during World War II. In four years the rest of the world outside of a few allies would be calling for US leadership to be extradited to the Hague for trial, and internally the US would be at civil war.
A more meaningful comparison as far as a recent historic event would be the decision of Jordan's King Hussein in 1970 to crush the Palestinians, a war that was to become reviled by the Palestinians as "Black September".
Use a high-tech composite. The idea of having a door 6" thick or more might cause more problems than solutions and 1000 lbs near the nose might not be soemthing that you could retrofit into existing planes without some pretty serious sacrifices.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
and it was funny, like a joke.
Can't tell if anyone's linked this yet, but there are some interesting comments at PPrune on what level of training these nuts would have needed (sorry, frames site - no direct link).
The popular media seem to have made up their mind that it's evil technology again. Maybe some of the victims could sue M$ on this basis.
This sig made only from recycled ASCII
I was unaware that they had an online version until a few moments ago. They have placed all of their articles pertaining to the politics of the attack in one area, and have made the full text free to non-subscribers. (link below)
Foreign Affairs: Terrorism Background Briefing
Some of the articles give some pretty interesting info for those who wish to know more about the destabilizing factors present in the middle east.
-- I'd say your post was about 3 monkeys, 18 minutes.
I ran across this link. It wholeheartedly reflects the way I feel about the people who perpetrated these crimes, and those who encouraged them to do so. http://www.pimpworks.org/openletter.html
It's so long after the fact that few people may see this, but I post anyway.
I quote you with "The more terrorists you kill, the less terrorism there will be."
How totally and incomprehensively INCORRECT. People have been applying the same flawed logic to the drug problem for decades with no effect.
Burning down fields of marijuana in South America does not mean less drug addicts in the US, it just means that you pissed off a very strong and powerful drug lord.
Terrorism is like durgs in this regard. Killing some terrorists will not even dent the problem, it will just make the rest of them angrier and push others to join the terrorism cause.
This is simple cause and effect logic. I'm surprised by how many people just don't get this...
If you must retaliate, use a bomb that won't kill the children.
/me in New Zealand.
Deepest sympathy & sorrow from
Full plate and packing steel! -Minsc
Look,
what happened in NY is a real tragedy, but it's not a reason to start spreading BS.
Scuse me,
I read in this 'Canadian' letter there were only American airplanes ??? Do you know that Airbus is a European airplane manufacturer that beats Boeing ?
Great speech about Americans, just not very fact based.
Oh, and you know that the foundation of space technology ( both US & Russia)is made by EUROPEANS (German guys after WO II) right ?
Duh, another post that will be modded down, why do I bother ?
Duh, I wont even post anonymously.
My other sig is Funny.
It is asking the important question "How much anger can prompt a group of people to do this?" An important question people seem to ignore in their anger.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
IMHO U.S. citizens should judge severily their elected government (please don't start with bush weird election stuff, since it doesn't matter on the discussion).
Instead of helping Iran to become a free+democratic (WTH even capitalist!) country, it was completely tortured. Now we got this crazy ppl there, doing terrorism worldwide (including my country twice, and we never bothered them!).
Most US TV is convincing ppl to become racists against arabic/muslim men/women/children. Ask yourself if nuking them is the right way of a free country to solve this problem.
Also what is it with Afghanistan now? Rambo made it a nice place to live, right?
It became fashionable to hijack planes and demand millions in seventies. A lot of Arab and other terroristic organizations were doing that.
After Israel freed Israeli hostages in 1976 (in the Air France plane) that Arab and German terrorists took to the heart of Africa, hijacking had pretty much stopped (Israeli commandos has also shot two hijackers of the Belgian Sabena plane).
Another example.
Arabs has murdered Israeli delegation at the 72 Olympics. ALL of the masterminds and planners as well as surviving participants were hunted down and exterminated. Do you think any terrorists are willing to repeat murdering Israelis?
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
Europe has declared (article 5) that it considers itself also as attacked by these terrorists. Not many Europeans are happy about this because when the US go into war, we go into war and we did not forget our wars yet (WWII, Jougoslavia). So it was not an easy decision
Yesterday evening, i was discussing with my friends about what happened. And, yes, the foreign policy of America was believed to be *a* cause of the hate against America (look at the Palestinians, they consider each attack of Israel as an attack of the US). So ! Did we decide that it was your fault and we shouldn't intervene ? No ! Like i said before we have not forgotten our previous wars, so America will be our friend and ally for a long time.
But we still believe we should together look for a solution to
1. Stop the terrorist leaders (elimination)
2. Stop the hate
You can not imagine how the Palestinians start hating America when Israel has in the past build illegal colonist settlements and fired upon them, and America does not even say that Israel should stop these actions. They feel they are underdogs (and they are).
Another case, when American fighters bomb iraq, we get a small article somewhere in our newspapers, but overthere, the news is front page, and covered for several days how "the coward americans attack civilian targets" (indeed, the US blow up a radar post, the iraquee say it was a farm)
Uncareful intervention leads to hate.
The world is an interacting system, when you pull a string in the middle east, something will move in America. So pull carefully.
Your problem is that you judge the entire world by your views as many leftists do. You think that "free speech and free beer" can make anybody view the world and behave like you do.
Guess, what. One of the main causes for this attack was the arrogance of idiots like you who don't want to see that the world consists of different cultures, and many of them laugh at your values and don't care about them. You can give them tons of beer and free speech, but they will just consider you a weakling and murder you in a cold blood because it's the way they are raised and educated.
Hopefully, the Western world makes the right conclusion from this tragedy and finally understands that diversity is not just two Americans who have different skin color or religion, but cultures that are completely different in their view of life.
And they will understand that you can't expect of everybody to behave like you and repeat all your dogmas and mantras.
And they will properly evaluate the threat of terrorism and show that it will not achieve the terrorist's goals.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE of celebrating Palistinians to manipulate you
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=
Here's a totally contrariwise view to the mainstream: to prevent terrorism, allow weapons on planes.
Not guns (depressurization, fuel, fancy electrics and hydraulics that don't take well to bullet holes) and not tazers (fuel sparks) but such things as knives and tranquilizer dart pistols should be allowed, even encouraged. All staff should be prominently armed and trained in weapons use as a matter of course; it would be much harder to take over a plane full of passengers and staff armed to the teeth. "More guns less crime" works groundside, and I expect it would work airborne too.
On as positive note, "don't sacrifice freedom" is already spreading as a concept well beyond the confines of slashdot: witness this fox news article: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34300,00.html
Here is an IKONOS satellite image of the disaster area. (from yahoo news)
The image was taken on 11:43am EDT September 12.
-- We don't understand software, and sometimes we don't understand hardware, but we can *see* the blinking lights
Check out thespaceimaging web site for more satellite images, including 'before' and 'after' pictures of the WTC and the pentagon.
-- We don't understand software, and sometimes we don't understand hardware, but we can *see* the blinking lights
read european history.
:(
you ll be amazed... NOONE SHOWED RESISTANCE - almost everyone open their borders and welcome the nazi parades. just britain
showed some resistance and the greeks. The greeks who were FREE people and THINKING like the man you are now attacking.
by killing innocents - not soldiers or terrorist - you are becoming a terrorist yourself!
I work for one of the largest producers of Microprocessors in the world, based in the United States, but I was born, raised and educated in South Africa.
2DUP * ;
One of the most foolish things you can do in a conflict is to under-rate your enemy.
When our soldiers are involved in a war and embark on a mission which they know is going to lead to their deaths, we call them heroes - whether they succeed or not. The people who engaged in this attack - whatever you may think of their motivation - were in the highest degree professional, disciplined, competent and courageous. They carried out a mission behind 'enemy' (their enemy) lines. Their security was not breached. Three out of four of their targets were hit, two were destroyed. And they died, as they knew they would.
That makes them an elite military unit. Yes, we don't like what they did. Yes, we don't agree with their motivations. But if you think of them as 'cowards', or any other belittling term, they will hit you again and again because you will not set up defences which are proof against elite professionals. Belittling your enemy breeds complancency, and complacency leads to defeat.
Respect these men. They are supremely disciplined, superbly organised, totally unafraid. If you do not respect them, you will not beat them.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
You're assuming here that these (American) companies are confined to a talent pool located within the United States. I can assure you, as an individual raised and educated in South Africa and now working for one of these (American) companies, that this is not the case at all.
2DUP * ;
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21582&cid=2291 125
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
They are extremely rational. They are some of the brightest, deep-thinking people on earth. They resort to terrorism because they feel they have no voice, and because they have not learned how to think through the long-term consequences of their actions. Most of us have that liability.
Let the terrorists kill each other. Some wear uniforms, some live in camps in the hills of Afghanistan. Some attack civilians, some don't. There is no need to join with terrorists; they will kill each other, given time.
You, and you alone, have the choice about what you do in your own life. Be no terrorist.
The meek will inherit the earth.
-Jared
information is immaterial
At this Norwegian site you can light a candle for the victims.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
If their bodies will be recovered, they should be buried in a pig's skin that will automatically make them ineligible for Heaven. IIRC, Brits were using this method for discouraging potential Muslim terrorists.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
What makes this terrorism is that the citizens who were bombed were 'innocent.'
If we agree to bomb them back, we are no longer innocent. We will polarize the world in ways incomprehensible.
This is why Jesus said to turn the other cheek; thereby our innocence will last longer than the sting of death.
Who is inspired by violence? The violent. Who fears it? The fearful. We meek tolerate it, with eyes ever on more eternal things. There is always room for charity, all the way up to the throne room of God. Put charity first, and the things of this world will grow strangely dim.
Please do not attack back. Let us die, rather than kill. And that is the only thing worth dying for.
Father, help us be kind to the geeks who drive airplanes into buildings. Only a geek could be that single-minded. Help us find you.
information is immaterial
Terrorists will be able to rewire their remote-control cars, and voila.
Nice thought, but it'd introduce more issues.
She still thinks of me, I bet.
The New York Times
9/11 Neediest Fund
The New York Times 9/11 Neediest Fund is a one-month campaign established to collect contributions to relieve the suffering of families struck by death or injury in the World Trade Center calamity, both civilians and rescue workers.
The campaign is being managed by The New York Times Co. Neediest Cases Fund, which will, as with the annual Neediest Cases campaign, cover all administrative costs.
Contributions will be accepted through October 11 and then be allocated to the seven social service agencies which disburse funds in the annual Neediest Cases campaign, plus three foundations representing the uniform services. These are the Fire Safety Foundation, the Police Foundation, and the John Jay College of Criminal Justice Foundation, on behalf of Port Authority, Sanitation, and other agencies.
You can contribute online: http://prodpub.wavesys.com/cw/donations.asp?charit y=neediest911
Donations can also be sent to:
The New York Times 9/11 Neediest Fund
P.O. Box 5193
General Post Office
New York, NY 10087
- Europeans came to the american continent and founded America
- If America didn't help Europe out in WWII, Germany might have well become a threat America couldn't handle (U-boats, intercontinental rockets)
- America created markets in both Asia and Europe by freeing them, thus they were able to export millions of products to Asia/Europe.
- America's involvement in what is considered local affairs isn't always appreciated (thats one of the reasons why there is so much hatred towards the States in the world), because they feel America is forcing their ideas (democracy, capitalism, etc) upon them. (Americans wouldn't like it either if say, China walked in and communism would be forced upon THEM, so I see the point of those africans and asians to some extend).
- Countries are offering their help already: Planes carrying blood, NATO support (if it doesn't turn out to be some american sect after all
:), etc.
Ofcourse America has helped many nations, sometimes through the UN and with help from other countries, but by far not always. These are just points to consider thoughYou think Israel will risk its only ally that is equal to its existance for simplifying its fight with terrorism?
Big NO. They are not THAT stupid. Also, European leftists will continue its policy of "Don't touch innocent Palestinians".
If you want to look at other big winners:
1) Russia. It does pretty much get a cart blanche for continuing eradicating the Chechen terrorists. Also, chances for the Bush's ABM system are getting much slimmer.
2) France.
French are rolling shit at Israel because they hope to displace Americans as the supplier of arms to Saudis and other less extremist Arab regimes.
Try to think how they will welcome the US retaliating against Muslim terrorist and contries that support it.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
You make me sick
Any shows you've got on your PVR -- if you can rip them, Divx encode them and run WinMX... get the files out there. People should search for them and download them. Keep them spread out.
The PVR idea is great. But widely distributing this historical record is just as important.
Didn't you know that after the creation of Israel not only about 600,000 Arabs ran away from what became the 1949 borders of Israel, but also about 600,000 Jews were necessary to leave everything behind and run from Arab countries to Israel?
Their property left was estimated at $30 BLN. So, this entire refugee problem was the result of Arab states not letting the Arab refugees out of the camps.
Unlike Arabs, Jewish refugees were able to live as a citizens of Israel with all rights according to this status.
BTW, Jews who decided not to leave Arab countries were persecuted and many of them were executed.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
The architect of the WTC is dead. Minoru Yamasaki died of cancer Feb. 7, 1986 at age 73.
I don't know where you got the information in your post, however CNN's Leon Harris did interview Aaron Swirsky, part of the architectural team.
This story says: SEATTLE (Reuters) - Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) said on Thursday it is giving $5 million in cash and $5 million in software and services to help relief groups and government agencies deal with the devastating attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (news - web sites). The cash would go to the September 11 Fund set up by the United Way of New York and The New York Community Trust, Microsoft President Rick Belluzzo told employees in a memo made available to Reuters. The twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon -- the U.S. military command center -- were hit by hijacked commercial airliners on Tuesday, leaving thousands of people believed dead. Microsoft, which makes the Windows computer operating system, also encouraged its 44,000 employees to make personal donations, for which the software giant would make matching donations of up to $12,000 per year, Belluzzo said. The Redmond, Washington-based company was also working with local blood banks to organize a campus blood drive soon, he said. Microsoft was assembling response teams to help customers in New York and at the Pentagon rebuild their computer networks, Belluzzo said. With a cash pile of about $31 billion, Microsoft is one of the richest corporations in the world. It donates tens of millions of dollars in cash, software and services each year to help charities and nonprofit and relief organizations
Consider the events with the following angle, and then maybe it could be argued that whoever has commandeered this is sending an hidden warning that more is to come.
1. It has been established that at many US domestic airports it would be easy for determined attackers to smuggle weapons on board.
2. The terrorists who sponsored this attack obviously have sufficient funding. They could have smuggled in lots of expensive and sophisticated weaponry. They didn't.
3. They knew that all their tactical options were likely to get partially compromised during their execution, as pilots report mayhem and flight controllers detect unauthorized change of flight plans.
4. They must have planned that partial coverage of the audacious way the hijackers seized the plane would leak out to authorities and media.
5. They have - according to the world medias at 11:40 GMT - only used cutlery. Knives, razors, cutters, that's all. 3 to 6 people on each plane according to police reports.
MESSAGE FROM THE ENEMY:
" Look at what we can do with a few knives. Wait until you see what we can do with more offensive weapons and more cunning plans you are not prepared for. "
Do not listen to the man who is not willing to suffer with you.
Aye, you struck on the very essence of Christianity.
Jesus resurrected so we could all realize that standing there "being killed" was bearable. He did not tell people to do more than he did. He asks a lot--your heart broken, your spirit contrite... do you REALIZE what it takes to break a heart?
Lift up your cross. Otherwise, I will die for you, too. For I will not lift up that gun. A true Christian could never be convinced to drive a plane into a building. We would all rather be killed first.
-Jared and Jesus
information is immaterial
This is horseshit... how can you believe for one momement that US can't hanlde a bunch of weirdos extremists??
As I recalled on the day after September 11, 1993,
the song "Imagine" by John Lennon had been played
over and over again all day long in my local radio
station; it is played over and over again
the song "We didn't start the fire" now
in the very same radio station on the day after
September 11, 2001.
As I recalled on the day after September 11, 1993,
the song "Imagine" by John Lennon had been played
over and over again all day long in my local radio
station; it is played over and over again
the song "We didn't start the fire" now
in the very same radio station on the day after
September 11, 2001.
First off I am a US citizen and proud of it! MY country is the best damn country in the world. If any other Americans don't think so then GET THE FUCK OUT!!! We don't want you here!!
People can bullshit all day long as to hopw the US had this coming...This is ludicrous, utterly!
We in the US have it very good, even some of the very impoverished are still 10X better than the lowest low in other countries. We do our damndest to help. And all we get from the world is stabbed in the back. I'm not saying we're perfect, but we always try to help.
For example:
World wide catastrophes:
Any time there is an earthquake, volcanoe, drought, hurricane (typhoon), anything...We the US will be there to help. Pouring Billions of dollars into the problems of the world.
When was the last time someone helped us? The Los Angeles earthquake. Who helped? if you can name me another country, you are a better man than I. I can't remember any. All the tornados that go through the central US every year flattening towns...who helps? No one. We handle this ourselves.
After WW2...who propped up Europe, providing Billions in loans that never were repayed (even the interest was forgiven) The US that's who.
We are not a perfect country. Our government has mad grievious mistakes in the past, BUT that does not give anyone EVER the right to fly in here and attack the innocent civilians.
During the Gulf War Schwarzkof said we took extreme care to avoid collateral damage, Our intent was not to harm civilians. Hell, you could see it when the ground troops were rolling in...the soldiers were surrendering...did we shoot them? NO, we gave them better care than thier own goverenment.
To quote Gen Schwarzkof "...these bastards come in here and take out as many civilians as possible" it really makes you question our judgement.
If the US would pull out of the world stage...What would happen? total chaos...this world would be in ruin. What do you honestly think that China or Russia could do our part? If you do you are an idiot.
We do so much for this world...and we get spat on. Like I said are we perfect? Hell no! But we do have the best thing going...
I love my country and I hope we continue our ways of helping out everyone else.
I' am afraid that this time these assholes have "awoken the sleeping giant" and this giant is PIST.
So get off your high horses and realize the magnitute of Tuesday.
Sean D.
Sorry about the rant, but I am sick of assholes dissing my country. Also sorry about the spelling.
"Hmm. I am to metaphor cheese as metaphor cheese is to transitive verb crackers!"
It seemed like the two or three places I read about this were credible (cnn, cnet, others) and it does seem to make that creepy logical sense that you find in situations like these.
In life most times what you think is going on, 99% of the time ends up being what was actually going on. Sure I could see this being the work of Laden, but aren't alot of those groups just mercenary establishments for hire? In that case, the people flying the planes could have been (at one point) connected to bin Laden, and then just moved to a different area or seperated themselves and been hired by another government.
I keep drilling my brain trying to find out who benefits from these activities, and surely this is not about one man's ego (or mistaken belief in a righteous god that demands this action) Or maybe I'm naive and a god like that really does exist.
Makes me think of that scene in The Last Temptation, axe in the sand after an evening with the devil.
*holds breath as he's moderated under*
Microsoft's version of sprituality:
"Double-click the lifestone to attune your spirit to the lifestone"
let's sum it up :
the FBI arrested one month ago an Algerian,
and the french secret service warned them
that the suspect had a "pedigree long as an
arm" linking him to Bin Laden, he also
had Boeing manuals and related stuff
The hijackers at Boston airport matched several
of the criteria for suspicion, and were not
searched : Arabic names and passports,
4 one-way last minute tickets bought by the same
credit card. One guy looked for several minutes
at an X-Ray machines and avoided eye
contact with the staff.
The authorities had almost one hour to
react between the first and the last crash,
and did not scramble at least one jet
to just "follow" the hijacked planes,
as occurs in other countries.
I am on the verge of thinking that
someone wants a war with Irak in order
to secure approvision in oil, or at least
to make huge benefits of rising prices.
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
This truly shows how generous people become in times of need, with internet donations alone amassing to such an impressive amount. Also judging by the common donations made by Gates ($5 billion to the William H. Gates foundation in 1999) a $25K donation would seem very, very strange. The outpouring of emotion for the victims of this horrendous act of cowardice has been high all across the world. I live in Australia, and many, many people I know have broken down over this and are angered by comments about the Nostradamus quote. I share their sentiments on this topic, people who use the loss of these people's lives to feel clever because they can quote a long since lost person are a disturbed group, I have only feelings of contempt and disgust for these people. CS Enough of my ranting the world has more important issues.
Ok look, I'm just getting sick of people saying you cannot secure an aircraft against hijackers. That is total bullshit. We can make those things as secure as tanks and military jets, it just requires a little paradigm shift in airplane design. For example...
Separate the cockpit/flight deck from the rest of the airplane. No way through, period, and make the bulkhead that separates them capable of withstanding just about any attack. The flight deck is entered from the OUTSIDE of the plane via a separate door. Once in the air there is no way in hell anyone can get from the passenger area into the flight deck or vice-versa.
True, this doesn't make it impossible to hijack, however it makes it several of orders of magnitude harder to do, and a bunck of knife wielding psychos are not going to be able to hijack an aircraft with that kind of design. It would take a well equipped military team to hijack something like that, and we'd notice that kind of equipment going on board.
Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have closed circuit television that allows those on the flight deck to view what is happening in the rest of the plane. We might even want to transmit that data back to the airport now, we have the technology to do it.
What if the pilot has a problem? The flight crew is usually 5 people isn't it? We have a pilot, co-pilot, and an engineer at least? Hey, if all three of them somehow suffer a fatal heart attack the flight was doomed from the beginning, I'll take my chances with that one. The odds of that are a lot less than the odds of what happened on Tuesday happening again.
And why in hell isn't there a GPS transmitter or similar device in the standard "black box" that makes it easy to locate? AFAIK they don't do that. It would make them awfully easy to find...
Hell is being intelligent in a world full of idiots.
But keep in mind that Israel is probably just as bad. -This seems clear given the tone of your message, where you spend significant energy vilifying the Palestinians. People are people, and for the most part, we all have the same basic set of emotions and reactions to the same stimuli, with the only differences being linked primarily to the level of cultural and propagandic programming we have undergone. It seems that both sides in Israel have been set up to perpetuate pain and suffering.
Anyway. . . From the perspective of one who has been there, what is the real situation with the native Arab Israeli population? In the West, we are lead to believe that there is a significant level of unfairness and hatred felt by Jews toward this portion the Israeli population. Almost an apartheid situation. What is the situation from where you stand?
Thanks.
-Fantastic Lad
An article on TechTV says that the American Red Cross in Greater New York is putting out a call for help from techies. Anyone in the NY/NJ area with spare hardware/software should send them an e-mail. Please refer to the article for a list of needed hardware and software as well as contact information.
Why is it that people always hear what I say, and not what I mean?
techtv is reporting that the red cross needs tech donations -- by means of computers, equipment, and services.
Try not to slashdot it, and they also ask to only send in your contact request in once, since their mail server is overwhelmed.
go ahead, beat the hell out of the defenceless, if it makes you feel like a man (hmm, sounds just like a wife beater)
We destroyed churches, hospitals, elementary schools, wives, children and every other form of life that you could imagine when we bombed Japan after Pearl Harbor. Didn't catch much shit from the Japanese after that.. did we?
No, the sad fact of the matter is, was, and always will be that Might Makes Right. As was said before, those people had the will but not the power, we have the will and the power. They fucked up. All your families souls are belong to Allah now.
That is interesting.
To those who think the intelligence agencies are doing nothing: I would be suprised if the FBI poseted every fact they had about their investigation on the internet and told CNN correspondents everything they have found our or knew.
If ?Laden? did warn us in any way about the details of the attack, it would have been very easy to thwart this particular attack.
I imagine the FBI has quite a bit of information, and they are already acting on much of it. I'd love to know the details, but I don't need to know so I'm glad I don't.
Krispy Cream is people
I thought there had to be some form of authorization before you can manually control an aircraft.
Maybe that's a good idea, but in this case (and most hijacking cases) the plane was already flying when it was hijacked.
You stupid fucker. Are you Tony Blair? Let the politicians kiss US ass, as they always do.
we should be "even handed" like the US was in the Falklands....
Why dont they just seal of the pilots from the passenger space. Then when there is a terrorist attack, simply release a gas. Just enough to knock out everyone within a short period of time.
Pilots land the plane. Police arrest drunk and groggy nuttos.
I guess the choice of gas would be important in terms of dosage. But im sure there would be something which is non-harmful but incapacitating.
Chemists? Doctors out there?
As long as you search for gas masks, can probably detect the chemicals in them. And make sure the oxygen things dont pop down.
-- Cheer, Cheer, The Red and the White.
The real funny thing is that the Taleban were funded by the US for years to fight the bad commie Afghan government. Now the flames have come home into the house where they once were fueled.
If you were capable to read in 1992 instead to look at comic strips only, you would know it. But today nobody seems to care. Pray on folks but don't expect too much from it. Instead intelligent foreign policy might help. But as it seems, idiots don't learn too fast.
I know for a fact that if I'd been armed in highschool that I would have murdered one person over a stupid piece of nothing which seemed like a great deal more to my eighteen year old head space at the time.
If somebody could figure out how to only give fire power to wise, cool-headed people with no personal baggage or ego problems, then I'd be all for it. As it stands, I walk through the gay district in my city on the way to work each day, and one time some I was coming home late and some kid in a car lobbed an egg at me and caught me in the back of the head. All I could think seconds after was, "Jeezuz. That could have been a bullet." If I lived in a southern U.S. state rather than in a relatively crime free city in Canada, I might not have been thinking anything seconds afterwards at all.
Guns aren't evil, and I'd certainly like to have one or two for when my government tries to cart me off to a concentration camp for being too mouthy. But to be perfectly honest, I don't even trust myself entirely. And I certainly don't trust anybody who deludes themselves into believing that they are safe and cool and beyond error or the possibility of debilitating emotional outburst. And while one argument is that this very fear would enforce a level of politeness in society, I disagree with the notion. I'd rather live in a city where I don't have a constant tingle of fear in the back of my mind, where I can speak my mind without constantly having to worry about being shot by some low-ego wrestling fan with a legally carried handgun and something to prove.
-Fantastic Lad
Excuse my English please, I am not an American.
No matter weather the terrorists are Arabs, I would like to ask - who "operate" them? I do not believe that US secret service didn't know anything. Everybody is angry on terrorist but nobody asked, "Who is behind?" Who was interested to do such a think and why? I am afraid Usama Ibn Ladim has no facility to arrange such far - reaching conspiracy. If so, somebody had to "protect" him from disclosure. In Arabic world there is know tendency to terrorism and I do not wonder it. But there is no gain neither for Afghanistan nor for other to attack WTC.
I think, the consequence of this attack we can expect stronger laws. We can expect censorship, pursuance, monitoring of everything. The power of secret services will rise.
The society is changing. There are many problems as migration, climate change, etc. The society is under pressure and the pressure is rising. There is no democracy, no freedom if the society is under pressure (in the war for instance). I think the "coops" "know" it is necessary for the society to admit "unpopular" laws to survive. How to force an average American to agree?
No it is time to admit unpopular laws as SSSCA Carnivore installation, etc. If no, more terrorists are required to force Americans to change freedom against security.
The Orwell's word is rising.
Why I am reasoning this way:
1) Before the war in Caucasus, there war several bomb attacks on civil buildings. Several hundred people died. The nation has been unified against Chechen terrorist. In reality, KGB agents have done the bomb attack. Chechen people have no interest to do this. The nation has been unified, the war could begin.
2) During protests against WTO meeting in Prague in September 2000, some show-windows are destroyed. Everybody said: "antiglobalists = hooligans" Nobody has been interested in billions of Czech crowns spent for the meeting. Nobody asks. I see now.., everybody is angry..., "terrorists, let we judge them! , and nobody is interested behind visible.
3) It is called second Pearl Harbor. You know the history, the US Secret Service has been informed about the attack in advance. They did nothing. They had causes to do nothing.
But there is not a lot of difference between those that created this, and Judas. There are also a lot of innocents that will die if we retaliate, and the crowd that called for the murder of Jesus (an innocent) could definitely be compared to the mob mentality of those calling for revenge.
We haven't even buried our dead, hell, we don't even know the death count, and our leaders are screaming revenge. They need to be calling for strength. They need to be calling for rebuilding. They need to be calling for reasonable security measures that would ensure that this does not happen again. They most definitely should NOT be calling for revenge before we can mourn our dead.
Now the US is allowed to find out how its own brew is tasting. Washington Post has
it in print since 1992 But who cares to read?
In any case, the choreography currently unfolding is a piece of propagantic, manipulative garbage capitalizing on the deaths of thousands in order to install the first pieces of a world government. And that's not the sick part. The truly sick part is that the world government is already there and has been for years. This whole charade is just a giant P.R. maneuver/power grab.
Five years from now, you'll have many fewer rights, the poor & wretched of the world will be much poorer and much more wretched, and the power elite will be even better situated thanks to this latest chapter in their unfolding bullshit parade.
Watch and learn.
-Fantastic Lad
After quiet contemplation, I would like a nice surgical strike against those involved after a tactical EMP burst. Send them back fifty years, no electric operation. Not quite back from the stone age but close enough. Maybe they will stop buying guns and rebuild. No aid from us though. Also, all white hats should toast Osamee's business holdings. Then he will be easier to catch and put down.
my 2 cents
I've talked with a few other people, and we've all noticed we've been getting a lot less SPAM in the past 2 days, even on hotmail accounts, and accounts which get at least 20 - 30 per day. Maybe they all decided to give it a break too.
What?
The key to victory over terror is pure patience
and non-responsiveness. Responding with violence
(even carefully planned violence, directed solely
against the guilty parties) will only encourage
more terrorism.
But... history, and human nature, are on our side,
if we are only patient enough to let them work!
Many aspects of American culture are quite
revolting, but you have to admit that it's very
seductive, and very insidious. They may have
fanatics, calling for Holy War, but we have vast
legions of advertisers, pitch-men, spin doctors,
and focus groups, and the message that they're
all pushing goes down, smooth and easy, like a
greasy American cheeseburger, washed down with a
"super-sized" cup of sugary American soda. Eat.
Drink. Listen to pop music. Laugh at the
mindless situation comedies. Watch the spiffy
movies with the exciting special effects (and, of
course, the pornography). Don't think, enjoy.
Don't sacrifice, get another credit card. Easy.
I admit, as a culture, it leaves a lot to be
desired, but only a small minority of people
heed the call of Blood, Iron, Fire, and Holy War,
and we seem to be able to keep most (not all, but
most) of those people satisfied with the
mock-violence of professional wrestling, "Doom,"
and chair-slamming brawls on the "Jerry Springer"
show. Our culture's sedatives for those who crave
violence and indulge in despair don't always work
(witness the periodic school shooting rampages),
but they work fairly well.
So don't encourage them!
It will take years...generations...but this
problem will, eventually, be dissolved in that
nameless grease that coats the hamburger grill.
Their grandchildren will be eating our
cheeseburgers, listening to our pop music, and
watching our television, and will regard stories
about the suicidal fanaticism of Great Uncle
So-and-So either with shame, or blank confusion
and mystification.
A bunch of knives, 20$
One copy of Ms Flightsimulator, 45$
The look on president Bush face, Priceless.
By the way in case any of you get caught up in "Senator" Clinton's rhetoric condemming the terrorists, I'll replay some commentary for you in which she gushes nearly ceaslessly for Arafat.
Two things that must happen:
Separate Church and State all over the world using gentle education. The reason that militant
exteremeists get violent is that they want all people in their Islamic theocracy to act Islamic. They don't beleive that anyone else is welcome. There is a simple association between teritory and religion that must be broken before there is room for understanding and tolerance of other beleifs.
The other thing that we can do about terrorism is to admit that we are vunerable. Terrorists see George Bush arguing for missile defense systems, and arrogantly thinking that we can defend against catastrophic attacks by building up our arms. The terrorists take this as a challenge. The terrorists know that they can get through any missile defense with a box cutter. The more we build our walls (draw lines in the sand if you will), the more tempting it is for our enemies to cross those lines, and show us our mistaken attitude.
I fully support the investigation of the individuals involved, and the punsihment of any that we can prove had a hand in the attack. At the same time I don't beleive anything will be accomplished in the way of future quality of life until simple tolerance and humanity that we take for granted in (most of) the free world is truly universal.
Thanks Slashdot! Without Slashdot, I wouldn't be seing all sides of the story.
-Jim
Celebrate Excellence!
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian
television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at . Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.
Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are
gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
Wear it proudly!!
This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do.
With Tuesday's terrorist strategy brought to the world's attention, and the widespread fact that those guns are already on all Israeli flights, it seems likely that there could be an example soon.
Where is the map detailing which buildings have fallen, which are damaged/unstable, which are cordoned off, and basic information about each? And to a lesser extent where is the map showing street closings, pedestrian access, mta access, and civilian auto access? Not one agency has provided such maps. If anyone can point me to a map with Hagstrom type or better detail it would be appreciated. AA
The moderation system is dynamic - before you'd even finished posting your comment, the score of the post you replied to may well have changed (up or down). Long after you posted, it may still change. What a waste of effort then to post a comment exhorting any particular moderation decision...
Yes, I know, this comment is meta-pointless... but at least I realise that.
Regards, Denny
Police State UK - news and
I read a good comment on this quote on advogato today:
"An eye for an eye" does not mean that if someone takes your eye, you should take their eye... it means that if you take someone's eye, yours will be taken.
Worth some thought, in my opinion... of course, I'm in the UK and therefore not quite so inclined to be thinking about blowing up the middle east right now.
My sincere and heartfelt sympathies to all touched by the events of this week.
Denny
Police State UK - news and
Another analogy for you:
Would it be the same when my friend killed several innocents with the gun and i gave him more bullets?
Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
there is a rule in islam that forbids muslims from killing innocent people ,so when any man who carries the name of muslim do such a crime we can't call him muslim any more cause he disobeyed islam rules .and i hope they are not palastinians, cause am a palastinian and i don't think this is the right way to show the world that there is someone stealing our land .
I guess it's because we are such a charitable people that we can't seem to understand a nation which does not belive in charity. I've hear first and second hand of people and businesses in OZ who have no idea of the concept.
I personally wonder what the world would do if the US went back to it's isolationist ways, stopped all imnports of forgn made products, brought all the jobs that we exported back home(which employ those underpaid jobs for cheap products where those people whould otherwise NOT have jobs at all)
If we stopped bucking up a world financial system which has so frequently gotten near collapse, a system of economics which while it does exploit people and resources would be working at 19th century standards if not for the US.
what would happen to the world if we kept our charity inside the country? who would pay for the humanitarian efforts that we pay for? Are people suggesting that we should just send money and keep our nose out? that's no better than writing a blank check and handing it to a drug dealer.
Yes. US policy has supported dictators, rapists and murderers and this has to change. Now is the time to correct this.
we have been attacked. it was an act of war. the people who planned this, the countries who house them; and the economic means which these people pay for this must be identified and executed as an example to all those to see.
calling all destroyers
You are absolutely right.
My friend would not then be at fault.
The responsibility would be mine, and mine alone.
Or, are you implying that we would share responsibility? And what would the split be? 50/50? 75/25? 90/10? How would "partial responsibility" be delegated? Who would be the judge? How would we be punished? Along the same split?
It really doesn't matter, I suppose, unless someone actually holds you responsible, justly or unjustly. Too bad everyones opinion of what is just is just a little bit different from everyone elses. Well, that is until something comes along to unify their ideal of justice, for however short a time.
I think something like that just happened...
...yellow number five, yellow number five, yellow number five...
but this was one of the funniest posts I've seen in months.
Capitalism is, essentially, the concept of each person exchanging money for goods and/or services.
Sorry, but that is not correct. Just about any modern economic system involves exhanging money for goods and services.
Capitalism is based on the private ownership of resources. Note how this encourages greed. The more you own, the more leverage you have in the market and in society in general. Even a cursory glance at America's power structure will confirm this. As such, it pits each member of the system against each other. Is competition a beneficail result of this? Yes. However, selfishness and greed are also part and parcel.
And one way is to punish and destroy completely those responsible so that those that do try to come along in the future think twice about fucking with us.
But how does this work when you are dealing with suicide bombers?
Don't get me wrong here, I agree with you but I am playing the Devil's Advocate so I can try to figure out what would be the most effective response so as to make this type of attack unappealing.
Iraq had the 2nd largest army. How much did that help them? Having more second-rate equipment doesn't do you any good. It wouldn't be a cakewalk like Iraq was, but the U.S. would win. And as for highly trained, they can't even teach their pilots to fly straight!
China chooses not to endure the tremendous losses that would occur if it invaded Taiwan, even if the U.S. didn't intervene directly.
The U.S. may not be invincible, but we are the most powerful now and for the forseeable future.
So if I were typing quickly trying to get what I knew to the rest of the /. community and used a slightly incorrect article ("the"), sue me.
Perhaps the primary designer was the underling and not Yamasaki at all? How do you know? The guy I heard on the radio claimed to be "the architect". Maybe he was just a nobody after all and was sucking in the news station with incredibly realistic and self-deprecating statements that did nothing to bolster his reputation nor fame as an architect?
Perhaps the interviewer used an incorrect term when referring to the interviewee and the interviewee didn't hear the introduction so he could correct him on the matter?
The source material was a radio interview, Tuesday afternoon around 6:00 p.m. PST, on a local (possibly CBC-affiliated) radio station broadcast in Victoria, BC, Canada. I may be able to track down the specific interviewer if you like because I recognize his voice and can probably do so again.
The interviewee was in California at the time.. possible Los Angeles? I forget the city, now. San Francisco "feels" more likely.
Dead mens don't care anymore about what appen next...
they beleive that 70 of their best friends & relatives will also be guarenteed automatic tickets to heaven by their sacrifice.
The suicide attackers are nothing more than pawns in this situation. They are brainwashed morons who've been convinced that killing Americans is the path to heaven. I imagine they're quite warm where they are right now.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
I just wanted to do my part to get this article up a few in the HOF list...
Did you vote for the government in power when the NATO treaty was ratified?
I know I can't speak for you. I'm not trying to.
NATO means a lot. For fifty years, the USA promised to fight with us against a common enemy
Now, unexpectedly, a new enemy has attacked the United States.
As a nation, we promised that we would defend any other nation that was a member of NATO.
We *will* do that.
Whoever you voted for, you are now part of the "we" thing.
We (yes, that includes you) are now at war.
Do you want to win?
Ho Hum.
I am a UK citizen.
We defeated the Argentinian forces in a war that has *already* gone down in history. Our victory was also the major reason thet Argentina is now a democracy.
It was an impossible war. Argentina should have kicked us out As an analogy, imagine that Hawaii was assaulted and taken by the $FOOBARS. And all you have is New York state. That gives a sense of the distances involved.
Our allies helped us *a lot*. The UK hasn't forgotten that.
The Falkland Islands are British.
But, cool one-liner troll.
Terrorists thrive on one thing:
helplessness and stupidity.
Terrorist organizations are brutal outfits of thugs who cloak themselves in romantic populism while often brutalizing worse the people the pretend to represent.
Before Osama Butt Lardass' attack, this country could give in the the namby-pamby argument that terrorism is a result of injustice. With thousands of our countrymen now buried in rubble, we must see terrorism for what it truly is: unexusable evil.
Don't be a dupe and fall for their rhetoric. Look at their actions and ask how they could possibly claim to speak for justice.
evanchik.net
Indeed, we should make shure that:
A:these terrorists, and the ones supporting them should be punished adequately, without resorting to extremes.
B:there should be no reason to resort to terrorisme anymore. That means tell israel to finally give in to some of the more reasonble demands. Then, the terrorists cannot justify themselves to the general public of their homecountry, thereby forfeiting the support, ending it all.
Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
It looks like talking to you means wasting my time.
;-) and farewell.
Everything I say - both facts and logic - can't penetrate your thick shield of bigotry.
So, I don't intend to listen to your insults anymore, especially since you're not capable to producing anything else.
Good night (or should I say Laila Tiaba?
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
People like you are the reason most non-americans dislike the us. Stupid brutes who think enough guns will subdue everyone. The next nuke you drop is probably gonna get the world against you, and then YOU are fucked. I just hope the situation never arises, since i dont really like the idea of nuclear holocaust.
People did die, yes, that is sad. But wtf, in accidents all over the world more people die vewry often, but noone cares, because the whole world is americanized.
IF, say gooses mopther was dead, i would understand. If cliffe died in wtc, id understand. But you dont show respect to the dead by doing just what the terrorists wanted, disrupting our lives. Every store thats closed, ever film they postpone due to this serves the terrorists. They wanted to fuck our lives, and they succeeded. They have made the whole world cry, they stopped the financial world, they halted our lives.
That was what they wanted. Let us not play the terrorist's tune, let us overcome this tragedy and get on with our lives.
People die, its shitty, but thats the way it is. What americans need to realise is that people do die, more people died from hiv in china last year than did now. 100 000 chinese people were infected with hiv (which, in china means death) by an error at a hospital. There are still people in vietnam who are crippled by Agent Orange, a chemical the us released over the jungles, which has had horrific effects. Not to speak about Nagasaki and Hiroshima, or the children in iraq who got bombed by the us in the war against saddam hussein. The US is NOT gods wonderstate, and every life is worth just as much as another.
I have serious problems with understanding whyt it is so much more of a tragedy when americans die from terrorism, as when equally innocent people die from other causes. Its morbyd, the cult-like fascination from people about this affair. I think it is terrible what has happened, but people need to see that the world isnt a good place, people die. Of course we need to try to make it as good as possible, but it isnt right now. The way to world peace is NOT through superior weaponry, but by dialogue and understanding. Obviously, someone thought they couldnt change what was wrong, and so they conducted this horrible act of violence. Violence breeds violence, when is the worldleaders going to understand that? By killing a terrorist, his children will grow up hating the us, and the bad circle is complete. War will continue forever as long as revenge is being performed.