read the protocol spec, and you would understand why you can't do this. You don't reply directly to a request. You send it back through your connections and the clients you are connected to only accept replies with the correct information.
If you had 8 connections and a request comes in from 1 of them, only that 1 connection would accept a reply with the request's guid. The IP information is taken directly from your connection.
it already happened. One of he original gnutella clients had a bug that would take requests with a TTL of 1 and set it to 254.
Other people hacked, but luckilly this was prevented by quick updates to the software. Clients soon had filters to kick out bad requests, illegal TTLs, spammed searches, etc...
Each request generates a GUID and clients check each request vs a recent history of GUIDs. It prevents any sort of looping.
Having developed the first host caching application for gnutella, I can say that the author never fully understood how the network worked.
His equations may be accurate based on how he thought requests and replied propogated through the network, but he assumed every request had a reply.
It is true that the bandwidth overhead was large, but I rarely used more than 15KB/s during the times when there were 4000+ clients connected. He says that it might not be possible to reach all 4000 people, but in order for me to know how many users were out there, they all replied to my ping, thus searchable.
Finally, the very nature of the network doesn't lend itself to protocol updates at all. The protocol was extreamly limited, but once it caught on, not much could be done about updating it short of starting an entirly new protocol. You couldn't just shut it down, and thats the major problem.
Many proposals were written on how to implement a system without the gnutella limitations, and you are seeing them in many different implementations.
Re:Juniper, not Jupiter
on
Smart Routers
·
· Score: 1
I was about to say the same thing, but figured I'd search first because someone HAD to notice. Only you did.
In my experience, all preinstalls of a Windows OS should be reinstalled to the base windows install. I have yet to see a decent preinstall that doesn't load 200 junk background applications.
On the other hand, All my Windows installs have been great. 1 reboot per 40 hrs of work is not a bad thing IMO. I have never needed to reinstall. The data on this machine has been around since DOS 5 and occasionally upgraded to dos6, dos6.22, win3.1, win3.11, win95, win95osr2, win95osr2.1, win95, osr2.5, win98 and finally win98se. All the hardware has been changed, but the data has never been erased. All OSes need to be maintained. Just as linux users recompile kernals and whatnot, Windows users should clean out the registry (well if they know how), keep system files up to date, remove duplicate old dlls, etc. I'm NOT saying Windows is great, but what I am saying, is that any OS can be relativlely stable if maintained.
How about the use people like me who have very little experience with linux. I can install this and play around a little bit with out having to repartition and install linux after reading 412 linux howtos. From my point of view, this offers a way for Windows users to see what linux is all (well not all) about.
Personally, I read/. for the non-linux stories. I read this thread to see the response from the linux community and I have been very suprised. I would think more people would support this since the one thing it would do is raise awareness and use of linux applications. Instead, the anti-ms or die cronies jump on this as an attempt to rid the world of linux. So which one of you shot JFK?
As a confirmation to what the guy says - if you've ever had the unpleasure to run Lotus Notes, you might notice that it's debugger "Dr. Quincy" will spontanously generate "R.I.P" log files on some Win boxes until the harddrive fills up.
Thats the first thing I do on servers and clients. You almost have to.
186,000 mps (second). 186,000 mph would equate to 51 miles per second. It would be cool if light travelled the same speed as sound. Think how weird that would be.
I personally think that if you have made it to the position that Judge Rehnquist holds, you'd pretty much know what you are doing. I definatly wouldn't think a Supreme Court Justice would play favorites at that level.
I have no problem with the decision, but I can see where some people would have a problem.
But of course this is only my "extreamly uninformed in law ethics" 2 cents.
There are plenty. Visit http://gnutella.wego.com and check out the third party clones. The gnutella 0.56 isn't even supported anymore, so if you are running that, stop, and get something new. Toadnode (win) is a quick up-and-comer.
You havn't tried some of the newer clones. Many let you limit the number of simultaneous transfers and a couple allow you to trottle the bandwidth used for transfers.
Actually, any asynchronous net connection puts a strain on the system. Cablemodems are the worst. Some people can download at 300-400K/sec but less than 20K/sec upload. Multiply this buy all those @home and rr people and you suddenly have a large headache.
If you have to reinstall Windows every month then you need to spend a little more time learning how to fix the problems. My machine has not been formatted of reinstalled since DOS 5. Yes there have been hardware upgrades, but never has it been formatted/new install or reinstalled. It now sits as a Win98SE machine that is relativly stable (as far as windows goes).
Hell, if I had to reinstall once a month, I'd call it WinBlows too.
I would have to agree with you completely. Novell has made huge steps in the educational department. A school with 500 students can get Netware, Zen Works, and Border Manager for $1000 with all the licenses needed for as many servers as you wish. You can then add any other Novell product at 50 cents each per user.
My job entails setting up a systems that dynamically installs applications based on user/workstation rights, keeps track of application licenses, connect multiple sites via VPNs, restrict Internet content, and others like web services etc. And that catch is: it must be easy enough to teach a librarian how to admin the system.
Since in NDS, every object can be trustees of any other object, it is very simple to add rights for a single person, group, container, location, and organization to applications, file shares, printers, and more.
Teachers log in and they get a full windows desktop much like our home machines (those of us that run windows), then just after they log off a student logs in and they have just a simple menu system with a completely different set of applications available to them. They don't even have rights to the applications directories on the server until they attempt to run it. When they close it, their rights are gone.
If a NOS can stand up to the worst script kiddies out there (high schoolers), IMO, it's pretty good. Throw in stability and speed, and nothing touches it....nothing.
Re:What about IP verification??? Won't work
on
Gnutella Vs. SPAM
·
· Score: 1
PUSH requests travel through the network ultimately getting back to you through your outbound connections that you initiated. At that point, since you are behind a firewall with a nonrouting ip, you PUSH the file to him since he can't directly request it from you.
I'm personally sick of buying a CD for $15 for an "artist" in which 1 song is worth anything and the rest is garbage. Thanks to CDNOW i can atleast listen to part of the songs before I purchase a CD.
In Metallicas Case. This winter I grabbed the Metallica S&M Concert in mp3. It had been awhile since I had dug out the old Metallica CDs and even longer since I've seen them in concert.
After Listening to the S&M mp3s, I promptly bought a concert ticket for their next show.
Reasons I d/l mp3s: 1: Record companies will push out any 2 bit band with 1 good song. $15 for 1 song is insane.
2: I almost have any time to go to the store (I know, not a reason) so why can I STILL not buy songs individually online for.50-1.00. Hell I'll even pay for the cdr. No manufacturing costs for them, whats taking them so long! (I know there is a few, but its not mainstream)
3. ***MOST IMPORTANT** Since I have broadband access at home, I've started d/ling songs that I have never even heard of. There are atleast 7-10 bands out there that have more money in their pocket because I d/l'd there pirated music.
4. Can't find the music. Old stuff...hard to find. Needed some Czech wedding song...boom thank you.
I never understoof the problem people have with rebooting a machine during an install. Yes it would be nice if I didnt have to reboot, but to use rebooting as a reason why Windows is hard to install is just idiotic.
I agree, but Gnutella wasn't built for local networks.
3) TCP is horrible for single-packet queries and responses.
TCP was used to get around firewalls. I can run Gnutella on port 80 and that would allow just about anyone to connecto to me and use gnutella. One example is all the universities banning napster by blocking at the firewall.
No part of the spec shows how to stop deep loops
My TTL and Max TTL do a decent job at preventing "deep" loops. The client also tracks a hop count. A packet starts out with a ttl of 7 and each hop subtracts 1 from the ttl, and adds 1 to the hop count. So, if somehow, a packet gets to me with a hop count over my max ttl, I do not respond and do not forward the packet. The client also remembers the last few seconds worth of searches and can determine if I've already responded to that search and drop that packet.
We're looing at an averate of 243 connections going through each computer.
The system is currently running 2200 users and I have 5 connections. My total bandwidth used is about 5kB/sec for searches. Never does 2200 people directly connect to me. Only those 5 people talk directly to me, and never does 2200 people search at the same time. Yes it does use a lot of bandwidth for searching, but 5kB/sec is not that bad for this type of system. You can't really improve on that without some sort of centralized server. Gnutella is a broadband application. If it was meant for dialup, we would have seen in long ago. It is not that complicated that it couldnt have been done.
I am one of the people who help out the newbies in the channel and I try to post to/. each time some new news comes out but it never is accepted. I can only do what I can.
Slashdot Mirror
Either:
1: Writer's block
2: Very bored
I vote for number 2 since I am too, and I actually read the whole thing laughing my ass off.
Now pardon me while I go find my ass.
read the protocol spec, and you would understand why you can't do this. You don't reply directly to a request. You send it back through your connections and the clients you are connected to only accept replies with the correct information.
If you had 8 connections and a request comes in from 1 of them, only that 1 connection would accept a reply with the request's guid. The IP information is taken directly from your connection.
it already happened. One of he original gnutella clients had a bug that would take requests with a TTL of 1 and set it to 254.
Other people hacked, but luckilly this was prevented by quick updates to the software. Clients soon had filters to kick out bad requests, illegal TTLs, spammed searches, etc...
Each request generates a GUID and clients check each request vs a recent history of GUIDs. It prevents any sort of looping.
Having developed the first host caching application for gnutella, I can say that the author never fully understood how the network worked.
His equations may be accurate based on how he thought requests and replied propogated through the network, but he assumed every request had a reply.
It is true that the bandwidth overhead was large, but I rarely used more than 15KB/s during the times when there were 4000+ clients connected. He says that it might not be possible to reach all 4000 people, but in order for me to know how many users were out there, they all replied to my ping, thus searchable.
Finally, the very nature of the network doesn't lend itself to protocol updates at all. The protocol was extreamly limited, but once it caught on, not much could be done about updating it short of starting an entirly new protocol. You couldn't just shut it down, and thats the major problem.
Many proposals were written on how to implement a system without the gnutella limitations, and you are seeing them in many different implementations.
I was about to say the same thing, but figured I'd search first because someone HAD to notice. Only you did.
In my experience, all preinstalls of a Windows OS should be reinstalled to the base windows install. I have yet to see a decent preinstall that doesn't load 200 junk background applications.
On the other hand, All my Windows installs have been great. 1 reboot per 40 hrs of work is not a bad thing IMO. I have never needed to reinstall. The data on this machine has been around since DOS 5 and occasionally upgraded to dos6, dos6.22, win3.1, win3.11, win95, win95osr2, win95osr2.1, win95, osr2.5, win98 and finally win98se. All the hardware has been changed, but the data has never been erased. All OSes need to be maintained. Just as linux users recompile kernals and whatnot, Windows users should clean out the registry (well if they know how), keep system files up to date, remove duplicate old dlls, etc. I'm NOT saying Windows is great, but what I am saying, is that any OS can be relativlely stable if maintained.
How about the use people like me who have very little experience with linux. I can install this and play around a little bit with out having to repartition and install linux after reading 412 linux howtos. From my point of view, this offers a way for Windows users to see what linux is all (well not all) about.
/. for the non-linux stories. I read this thread to see the response from the linux community and I have been very suprised. I would think more people would support this since the one thing it would do is raise awareness and use of linux applications. Instead, the anti-ms or die cronies jump on this as an attempt to rid the world of linux. So which one of you shot JFK?
Personally, I read
As a confirmation to what the guy says - if you've ever had the unpleasure to run Lotus Notes, you might notice that it's debugger "Dr. Quincy" will spontanously generate "R.I.P" log files on some Win boxes until the harddrive fills up.
Thats the first thing I do on servers and clients. You almost have to.
Mathmatical Origami is in there twice i think. Or it might just be this great cough medicine I've been drinking all day. Now only if I had a cough.
>People who don't want to try new things generally stick with Windows
C'mon now...using windows has nothing to do with trying new stuff or not. Just because you don't choose to use....ah nevermind
186,000 mps (second). 186,000 mph would equate to 51 miles per second. It would be cool if light travelled the same speed as sound. Think how weird that would be.
I personally think that if you have made it to the position that Judge Rehnquist holds, you'd pretty much know what you are doing. I definatly wouldn't think a Supreme Court Justice would play favorites at that level.
I have no problem with the decision, but I can see where some people would have a problem.
But of course this is only my "extreamly uninformed in law ethics" 2 cents.
There are plenty. Visit http://gnutella.wego.com and check out the third party clones. The gnutella 0.56 isn't even supported anymore, so if you are running that, stop, and get something new. Toadnode (win) is a quick up-and-comer.
You havn't tried some of the newer clones. Many let you limit the number of simultaneous transfers and a couple allow you to trottle the bandwidth used for transfers.
Actually, any asynchronous net connection puts a strain on the system. Cablemodems are the worst. Some people can download at 300-400K/sec but less than 20K/sec upload. Multiply this buy all those @home and rr people and you suddenly have a large headache.
If you can afford one of these things, I doubt you would need to snif out CC transmissions....
If you have to reinstall Windows every month then you need to spend a little more time learning how to fix the problems. My machine has not been formatted of reinstalled since DOS 5. Yes there have been hardware upgrades, but never has it been formatted/new install or reinstalled. It now sits as a Win98SE machine that is relativly stable (as far as windows goes).
Hell, if I had to reinstall once a month, I'd call it WinBlows too.
I would have to agree with you completely. Novell has made huge steps in the educational department. A school with 500 students can get Netware, Zen Works, and Border Manager for $1000 with all the licenses needed for as many servers as you wish. You can then add any other Novell product at 50 cents each per user.
My job entails setting up a systems that dynamically installs applications based on user/workstation rights, keeps track of application licenses, connect multiple sites via VPNs, restrict Internet content, and others like web services etc. And that catch is: it must be easy enough to teach a librarian how to admin the system.
Since in NDS, every object can be trustees of any other object, it is very simple to add rights for a single person, group, container, location, and organization to applications, file shares, printers, and more.
Teachers log in and they get a full windows desktop much like our home machines (those of us that run windows), then just after they log off a student logs in and they have just a simple menu system with a completely different set of applications available to them. They don't even have rights to the applications directories on the server until they attempt to run it. When they close it, their rights are gone.
If a NOS can stand up to the worst script kiddies out there (high schoolers), IMO, it's pretty good. Throw in stability and speed, and nothing touches it....nothing.
PUSH requests travel through the network ultimately getting back to you through your outbound connections that you initiated. At that point, since you are behind a firewall with a nonrouting ip, you PUSH the file to him since he can't directly request it from you.
I'm personally sick of buying a CD for $15 for an "artist" in which 1 song is worth anything and the rest is garbage. Thanks to CDNOW i can atleast listen to part of the songs before I purchase a CD.
.50-1.00. Hell I'll even pay for the cdr. No manufacturing costs for them, whats taking them so long! (I know there is a few, but its not mainstream)
In Metallicas Case. This winter I grabbed the Metallica S&M Concert in mp3. It had been awhile since I had dug out the old Metallica CDs and even longer since I've seen them in concert.
After Listening to the S&M mp3s, I promptly bought a concert ticket for their next show.
Reasons I d/l mp3s:
1: Record companies will push out any 2 bit band with 1 good song. $15 for 1 song is insane.
2: I almost have any time to go to the store (I know, not a reason) so why can I STILL not buy songs individually online for
3. ***MOST IMPORTANT** Since I have broadband access at home, I've started d/ling songs that I have never even heard of. There are atleast 7-10 bands out there that have more money in their pocket because I d/l'd there pirated music.
4. Can't find the music. Old stuff...hard to find. Needed some Czech wedding song...boom thank you.
Just a few...already getting to be too longs..soo
I never understoof the problem people have with rebooting a machine during an install. Yes it would be nice if I didnt have to reboot, but to use rebooting as a reason why Windows is hard to install is just idiotic.
2) Loss of efficiency over local networks.
I agree, but Gnutella wasn't built for local networks.
3) TCP is horrible for single-packet queries and responses.
TCP was used to get around firewalls. I can run Gnutella on port 80 and that would allow just about anyone to connecto to me and use gnutella. One example is all the universities banning napster by blocking at the firewall.
No part of the spec shows how to stop deep loops
My TTL and Max TTL do a decent job at preventing "deep" loops. The client also tracks a hop count. A packet starts out with a ttl of 7 and each hop subtracts 1 from the ttl, and adds 1 to the hop count. So, if somehow, a packet gets to me with a hop count over my max ttl, I do not respond and do not forward the packet. The client also remembers the last few seconds worth of searches and can determine if I've already responded to that search and drop that packet.
We're looing at an averate of 243 connections going through each computer.
The system is currently running 2200 users and I have 5 connections. My total bandwidth used is about 5kB/sec for searches. Never does 2200 people directly connect to me. Only those 5 people talk directly to me, and never does 2200 people search at the same time. Yes it does use a lot of bandwidth for searching, but 5kB/sec is not that bad for this type of system. You can't really improve on that without some sort of centralized server. Gnutella is a broadband application. If it was meant for dialup, we would have seen in long ago. It is not that complicated that it couldnt have been done.
I am one of the people who help out the newbies in the channel and I try to post to /. each time some new news comes out but it never is accepted. I can only do what I can.
see even if you are descended from George Washington dosn't mean shit in the modern world.
I am a decendent, and your are right...it doesn't mean shit other than an interesting 30 second conversation every year or so.
I think i just commited karmacide