The filesystem does read-ahead cacheing, as well as using all available memory (save 1-2MB) for filesystem cache. I think it would be inefficient to have free memory sitting around not doing anything for the system. Any performance problems would only occur on the first load of a shared library and shouldn't be a problem unless you are randomly access a lot of libraries (see the LD_BIND_NOW=true trick that KDE uses on how to work around this).
Unix style systems are generally optimized to start lots of small processes very quickly and small processes are often used where threads are used on other OS's. For example, on Linux process creation time is comparable (if not faster) then thread creation on NT and threads aren't scheduled any differently than processes. Sorry, tangent alert.
I think that in the common case, libraries for whatever you are using will usually be loaded into memory already.
Not all Linux distributions are like that at all. I use Debian GNU/Linux and when I want to install package foo I just type "apt-get install foo" at a prompt. Done. apt will resolve all dependancy issues, download all required packages install them and configure them without you having to lift a finger. Just about any piece of software you can think of is available as a package in the Debian system.
Debian also has guidelines about how packages are built so that software is installed in predictable places. All packages have a dedicated maintainer (and changelogs) and are generally of higher quality, ie. they work on the first try.
Yes, the Debian installer is a real piece of crap but the Progeny installer is Slicker 'n Snot(tm). Yes, there is a bit less handholding, but it is also less required as stuff Just Works(tm) out of the box. If you want all the benefits of apt but don't want Debian, however, you can always use the new Mandrake or Connectiva which have moved to apt.
Worse, when you bring in a shared library, you bring in the whole thing, not just what you need.
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that Linux merely memorymaps the libraries when they get linked in. Only the parts that are actually accessed are loaded into memory where they are cached for later use. It's very fast.
I have no more information than you do but I kind of doubt that anyone was running around their network, undetected, for that kind of time. That really doesn't change the meat of the argument, though, restore the data (only) from the last known-good backup and rebuild everything from then to now by hand.
Sure code could be modified, but not without being detected. I assume that they are going to restore the data from a pre-breakin backup, then diff the backup with the current data and ask the various software maintainers to verify the diffs. Alternately they could require the various software maintainers to checkin their local CVS tree with the master repository, and verify any discrepancies. Any time you have a properly implemented change control system like CVS it is scads easier to recover from a comprimise like this and ensure that your source code has not been comprimised. This isn't scary at all.
For this very reason the FSF started their own server using the SourceForge software. The FSF plans to use it to manage their projects but, like SourceForge, it is open to the public. All the amenities of SourceForge without having a single point of failure.
Note: I wrote much less imflamatory posts above and below. Check them out as well if this just makes you mad.
Also Note: I have little respect for people who refuse to learn anything about the world around them.
Guess I'm an idiot for not taking time out of my busy schedule to explore all the things my hammer and screwdriver can do.
No, that's not the point, the point is that you are an idiot, IMHO, if you continually use your screwdriver to pound nails even after someone else takes time out of their busy schedule to show you how to use a hammer.
A computer is a TOOL. Tools are usually considered to be ease work or accomplish something. The point should not be to use the tool but to do something productive with the tool.
Now this is something that I agree with, I just wish that this gem of a statement wasn't surounded with such garbage.
So, pray tell, why should my laywer budy understand what a symlink is and why it's better than a shortcut in Windows when all he wants to do is write a cease and desist letter?
Well, this is a really bad example, even I haven't had cause to use symlinks in my home directory. I usually use symlinks as an administrative tool. A better example for our hypothetical laywer would be one who refuses to learn how to use templates or mailmerge in their wordprocessor, even though these features would help immensely with their common task load. I've seen reasonably intelligent people who use spaces and tabs in their wordprocessor to center text instead of using the center feature, or manually making large numbers of changes instead of using search-and-replace.
The weird thing is that since it involves a computer it is socially acceptable to be incompetant. If these people brought this same attitude to other aspects of their job they would be fired on the spot.
"What, you've been here for three months and you still can't file an order! Please be out of your desk by 3PM."
Contrast:
What, you've been here for three months and you still reply to email by retyping the complete text of the previous message into a Word document, attaching it to a new message and sending it to everyone in the complete address book because you can't remember who you need to send it to. Oh and you a secretary who is a hunt-and-peck typist who only gets 10 WPM. Poor baby, computers are
so hard.
Note: The above is a gross exaggeration, but I've seen that kind of attitude before and it is quite frustrating. When I was working in a job completely unrelated to systems administration I used to have people come up to me all the time and ask about basic features in their office productivity software. My job didn't even require me to use the software much, I just enjoyed learning, while their jobs required them to make several slides every day, sometimes with related documentation. It gets frustrating when you are asked the same questions every day, "How do I line up multiple objects onscreen", "What is that search-and-replace thingy you were talking about", "How do I log into this computer again", "What's a network", "I seem to have two drive letters pointing to the same shared area on the fileserver. I didn't want that so I deleted all the files on one of the drives but they seem to have dissappeared from the other wone as well. There must be something wrong with my computer, fix it!", "Backups, what are backups?"
Grrrrrr. Sorry for venting some old, repressed bile.
I wholeheartedly and emphatically agree. I was possibly a bit too inflamatory in my initial post but this is exactally the kind of thing I would like to see. A computer is a tool, and the full power of that tool should be available to the end user. It should be reasonably unobtrusive but allow for continuous learning and improvement, I learn new things every day that allow me to be a more efficient and accurate computer user/admin.
"Linux *is* user friendly. It's not idiot-friendly or fool-friendly!"
The majority of users are not "idiots" or "fools". Some are doctors, lawyers or artists who have chosen to concentrate in an area outside of computers. Saying they are idiots because they don't understand symbolic links is like a eye surgeon saying that a programmer is an idiot because he can't remove a cataract.
I've had to deal with this kind of situation before and your example is flawed. The people that this statement refers to are people who refuse to learn, either through direct teaching or through experience. Many times these are the same people who refuse to follow detailed instructions and are then confused and indignant when things don't work. Also the people who I am thinking of will use a software package for years and never attempt to learn more about the package or become more efficient using it.
My second point is that comparing the effort to understand symlinks with the ability to perform eye surgery is really lopsided. I can, hopefully, explain the concepts of symlinks to anyone who isn't a vegetable and is willing to learn in 5 minutes, it takes years of study and hard work to become even basicly competant in the medical field.
Computers are not all Magic Faries and Pixie Dust!!
With Eazel out of the picture and Ximian not too far behind, it's not too difficult to envision GNOME falling so far behind that it will soon lose its position on most desktops, except for those of the most fanatical GNUfies.
Oh, hogwash. GNOME existed before Ximian and will exist after Ximian, probably run by the same coders. Also with several UNIX(tm) vendors planning to replace CDE with GNOME there is a finantial incentive to keep GNOME development going strong.
Right on, my brother. It's been a couple of years (gee, time flies) but I was trained that it was always better to know where to look things up then to try and know everything. STAN-EVAL just ate that shit up. I wish we could have done more with the continuity binders though, we were always so busy putting out fires and holding the office together we didn't have much time for things, like proper docs and recurring training.
I was a 1W051 (Weather Observer) and every unit I was at always seemed to be running as fast as they could just to stay in one place. I was never able to make much progress trying to make the place better, it was very frustrating and is one of the
reasons that I didn't reenlist.
Of course I'm in the same boat with my current job, running as fast as I can just to keep from being swamped. The difference is that I have hope in my current job that it will get better sooner rather than later. Also in my current job I really can make a difference and make things better for myself and the others around me. Sometimes it helps being small.
That's not good at all. If these companies really wanted to help they would encourage their people to give the cars back and help out with the carpooling.
The difference is that an epidemic is an unthinking, uncontrolable force, getting your car reposessed is completely within your control and your own damn fault
This is off-topic, but is there a list of the RDF URL's you use for the Slashboxes available? I really like the little news ticker that comes with KDE and I would like to add some of my slashboxes to it. TIA
Re:Lawyers don't sue people, people sue people
on
Sony Violating GPL?
·
· Score: 2
Ok, sure you have a point, but look at the posts today. The majority of the posters, laymen not lawyers, are advocating lawsuits as the first defense against a possible GPL violation.
To respond to your comment, lawyers wouldn't have such an easy time convincing people to sue if people weren't all gung-go about it in the first place. If you are in a position where a lawyer is trying to convince you to sue, you've already made the first step by consulting the lawyer in the first place. The lawyer can cajole all they want, the final go/no-go decision is in the hands of the plaintiff.
I think the "When are you going to do something with yourself" crowd is the same as the "Look at the nice clothes on he Emperor" crowd. Subconsiously they are asking themselves "If he can live a happy, productive life without breaking his back at work, WTF am I doing?" Other people don't want to see a happy, well adjusted person working 20 hrs a week because it is a slap in the face, showing that they have chosen the wrong lifestyle and value system. Nobody likes to be wrong.
Lawyers don't sue people, people sue people
on
Sony Violating GPL?
·
· Score: 2
What the heck is wrong with everybody today, why are the majority of the post of the "Sue now, ask questions later" varity? Remember "Lawyers don't sue people, people sue people." Instead of trying to get the facts of the case and trying to talk to Sony, most people are letting out Holy Hellfire based on rumors and heresay. Maybe the EULA presented before the download is bogus, that could be an honest mistake (Corel anyone?) and the source may be forthcomming. Lets give them time to correct the mistake before we go around speaking evil and hiring lawyers. They have shown clue before when they used GPLd software I doubt that are going to try to violate the GPL on purpose.
Oh, and has anyone who is flaming Sony actually read the GPL? It clearly states that source only be made available to people whom you have distributed binaries, and even then it is permissible to charge a nominal fee. They would be well within their rights to charge $10 for source on CD, only to people who have downloaded the binaries from their website. The GPL does not say anything about putting all your source on an anonymous FTP server, but you cannot prevent someone else from doing so.
I absolutely agree. While binary packages could always be trojaned to "rm -rf/" in the %postinit all packages from major distributors are GPG signed. It is reletively simple to verify the package's signature against the keyfile that comes on your distributions CDROM. It is not easy or even possible to verify that the go-gnome.com site isn't a trojan. Maybe if they used https and made you check off on the key you could have some assurance, and using "set -x" in the script so you could see what it does. In any event, encouraging people to pipe data from random websites into a root shell is a universally bad idea.
The point is that source compatability goes way, way farther then binary compatability. Really, source compatability is the only reasonable way to get software between different software environments. I could grab any random source tarball and probably complie cleanly on RedHat from 5.0-7.1, Caldera, Mandrake, SuSE, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, FooBix, etc. I could not get binary compatability between say RH and Caldera and definitely not between SPARC and x86 archs.
I don't have the perfect analogy but I think you get the point.
LOL! I've done that. One time our packaging and release manager was having some problems with the kernel he had built for his home machine (IIRC) and I sent him a little 5-step kernel-compile HOWTO. This guy has a degree in Astrophysics and builds our internal Linux distro from the ground up, he could patch, compile and install a kernel in his sleep. He sent a mildly scathing but friendly response pointing out that I was being an idiot.
Slashdot Mirror
The filesystem does read-ahead cacheing, as well as using all available memory (save 1-2MB) for filesystem cache. I think it would be inefficient to have free memory sitting around not doing anything for the system. Any performance problems would only occur on the first load of a shared library and shouldn't be a problem unless you are randomly access a lot of libraries (see the LD_BIND_NOW=true trick that KDE uses on how to work around this).
Unix style systems are generally optimized to start lots of small processes very quickly and small processes are often used where threads are used on other OS's. For example, on Linux process creation time is comparable (if not faster) then thread creation on NT and threads aren't scheduled any differently than processes. Sorry, tangent alert.
I think that in the common case, libraries for whatever you are using will usually be loaded into memory already.
Not all Linux distributions are like that at all. I use Debian GNU/Linux and when I want to install package foo I just type "apt-get install foo" at a prompt. Done. apt will resolve all dependancy issues, download all required packages install them and configure them without you having to lift a finger. Just about any piece of software you can think of is available as a package in the Debian system.
Debian also has guidelines about how packages are built so that software is installed in predictable places. All packages have a dedicated maintainer (and changelogs) and are generally of higher quality, ie. they work on the first try.
Yes, the Debian installer is a real piece of crap but the Progeny installer is Slicker 'n Snot(tm). Yes, there is a bit less handholding, but it is also less required as stuff Just Works(tm) out of the box. If you want all the benefits of apt but don't want Debian, however, you can always use the new Mandrake or Connectiva which have moved to apt.
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that Linux merely memorymaps the libraries when they get linked in. Only the parts that are actually accessed are loaded into memory where they are cached for later use. It's very fast.
Sick, but only too true.
I have no more information than you do but I kind of doubt that anyone was running around their network, undetected, for that kind of time. That really doesn't change the meat of the argument, though, restore the data (only) from the last known-good backup and rebuild everything from then to now by hand.
Sure code could be modified, but not without being detected. I assume that they are going to restore the data from a pre-breakin backup, then diff the backup with the current data and ask the various software maintainers to verify the diffs. Alternately they could require the various software maintainers to checkin their local CVS tree with the master repository, and verify any discrepancies. Any time you have a properly implemented change control system like CVS it is scads easier to recover from a comprimise like this and ensure that your source code has not been comprimised. This isn't scary at all.
For this very reason the FSF started their own server using the SourceForge software. The FSF plans to use it to manage their projects but, like SourceForge, it is open to the public. All the amenities of SourceForge without having a single point of failure.
Note: I wrote much less imflamatory posts above and below. Check them out as well if this just makes you mad.
Also Note: I have little respect for people who refuse to learn anything about the world around them.
No, that's not the point, the point is that you are an idiot, IMHO, if you continually use your screwdriver to pound nails even after someone else takes time out of their busy schedule to show you how to use a hammer.
Now this is something that I agree with, I just wish that this gem of a statement wasn't surounded with such garbage.
Well, this is a really bad example, even I haven't had cause to use symlinks in my home directory. I usually use symlinks as an administrative tool. A better example for our hypothetical laywer would be one who refuses to learn how to use templates or mailmerge in their wordprocessor, even though these features would help immensely with their common task load. I've seen reasonably intelligent people who use spaces and tabs in their wordprocessor to center text instead of using the center feature, or manually making large numbers of changes instead of using search-and-replace.
The weird thing is that since it involves a computer it is socially acceptable to be incompetant. If these people brought this same attitude to other aspects of their job they would be fired on the spot.
Contrast:
Note: The above is a gross exaggeration, but I've seen that kind of attitude before and it is quite frustrating. When I was working in a job completely unrelated to systems administration I used to have people come up to me all the time and ask about basic features in their office productivity software. My job didn't even require me to use the software much, I just enjoyed learning, while their jobs required them to make several slides every day, sometimes with related documentation. It gets frustrating when you are asked the same questions every day, "How do I line up multiple objects onscreen", "What is that search-and-replace thingy you were talking about", "How do I log into this computer again", "What's a network", "I seem to have two drive letters pointing to the same shared area on the fileserver. I didn't want that so I deleted all the files on one of the drives but they seem to have dissappeared from the other wone as well. There must be something wrong with my computer, fix it!", "Backups, what are backups?"
Grrrrrr. Sorry for venting some old, repressed bile.
Ding, Ding goes the bell!!
I wholeheartedly and emphatically agree. I was possibly a bit too inflamatory in my initial post but this is exactally the kind of thing I would like to see. A computer is a tool, and the full power of that tool should be available to the end user. It should be reasonably unobtrusive but allow for continuous learning and improvement, I learn new things every day that allow me to be a more efficient and accurate computer user/admin.
I've had to deal with this kind of situation before and your example is flawed. The people that this statement refers to are people who refuse to learn, either through direct teaching or through experience. Many times these are the same people who refuse to follow detailed instructions and are then confused and indignant when things don't work. Also the people who I am thinking of will use a software package for years and never attempt to learn more about the package or become more efficient using it.
My second point is that comparing the effort to understand symlinks with the ability to perform eye surgery is really lopsided. I can, hopefully, explain the concepts of symlinks to anyone who isn't a vegetable and is willing to learn in 5 minutes, it takes years of study and hard work to become even basicly competant in the medical field.
Computers are not all Magic Faries and Pixie Dust!!
Oh, hogwash. GNOME existed before Ximian and will exist after Ximian, probably run by the same coders. Also with several UNIX(tm) vendors planning to replace CDE with GNOME there is a finantial incentive to keep GNOME development going strong.
Right on, my brother. It's been a couple of years (gee, time flies) but I was trained that it was always better to know where to look things up then to try and know everything. STAN-EVAL just ate that shit up. I wish we could have done more with the continuity binders though, we were always so busy putting out fires and holding the office together we didn't have much time for things, like proper docs and recurring training.
I was a 1W051 (Weather Observer) and every unit I was at always seemed to be running as fast as they could just to stay in one place. I was never able to make much progress trying to make the place better, it was very frustrating and is one of the reasons that I didn't reenlist.
Of course I'm in the same boat with my current job, running as fast as I can just to keep from being swamped. The difference is that I have hope in my current job that it will get better sooner rather than later. Also in my current job I really can make a difference and make things better for myself and the others around me. Sometimes it helps being small.
Oh, I don't know. We voted him in so I consider the W self-inflicted pain. 8^)
Opera is available for Linux as well, I use it at work and it works very well.
I think we've touched a nerve 8^)
If you can't laugh at pain, especially stupid, self-inflicted pain, then what can you laugh at?
Totally Kick Ass!
I did some Google searching earlier but didn't turn up much, the links you provided are exactally what I was looking for.
That's not good at all. If these companies really wanted to help they would encourage their people to give the cars back and help out with the carpooling.
The difference is that an epidemic is an unthinking, uncontrolable force, getting your car reposessed is completely within your control and your own damn fault
This is off-topic, but is there a list of the RDF URL's you use for the Slashboxes available? I really like the little news ticker that comes with KDE and I would like to add some of my slashboxes to it. TIA
--Mark
Ok, sure you have a point, but look at the posts today. The majority of the posters, laymen not lawyers, are advocating lawsuits as the first defense against a possible GPL violation.
To respond to your comment, lawyers wouldn't have such an easy time convincing people to sue if people weren't all gung-go about it in the first place. If you are in a position where a lawyer is trying to convince you to sue, you've already made the first step by consulting the lawyer in the first place. The lawyer can cajole all they want, the final go/no-go decision is in the hands of the plaintiff.
I think the "When are you going to do something with yourself" crowd is the same as the "Look at the nice clothes on he Emperor" crowd. Subconsiously they are asking themselves "If he can live a happy, productive life without breaking his back at work, WTF am I doing?" Other people don't want to see a happy, well adjusted person working 20 hrs a week because it is a slap in the face, showing that they have chosen the wrong lifestyle and value system. Nobody likes to be wrong.
What the heck is wrong with everybody today, why are the majority of the post of the "Sue now, ask questions later" varity? Remember "Lawyers don't sue people, people sue people." Instead of trying to get the facts of the case and trying to talk to Sony, most people are letting out Holy Hellfire based on rumors and heresay. Maybe the EULA presented before the download is bogus, that could be an honest mistake (Corel anyone?) and the source may be forthcomming. Lets give them time to correct the mistake before we go around speaking evil and hiring lawyers. They have shown clue before when they used GPLd software I doubt that are going to try to violate the GPL on purpose.
Oh, and has anyone who is flaming Sony actually read the GPL? It clearly states that source only be made available to people whom you have distributed binaries, and even then it is permissible to charge a nominal fee. They would be well within their rights to charge $10 for source on CD, only to people who have downloaded the binaries from their website. The GPL does not say anything about putting all your source on an anonymous FTP server, but you cannot prevent someone else from doing so.
Deep breath, calm down
I absolutely agree. While binary packages could always be trojaned to "rm -rf /" in the %postinit all packages from major distributors are GPG signed. It is reletively simple to verify the package's signature against the keyfile that comes on your distributions CDROM. It is not easy or even possible to verify that the go-gnome.com site isn't a trojan. Maybe if they used https and made you check off on the key you could have some assurance, and using "set -x" in the script so you could see what it does. In any event, encouraging people to pipe data from random websites into a root shell is a universally bad idea.
The point is that source compatability goes way, way farther then binary compatability. Really, source compatability is the only reasonable way to get software between different software environments. I could grab any random source tarball and probably complie cleanly on RedHat from 5.0-7.1, Caldera, Mandrake, SuSE, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, FooBix, etc. I could not get binary compatability between say RH and Caldera and definitely not between SPARC and x86 archs.
I don't have the perfect analogy but I think you get the point.
LOL! I've done that. One time our packaging and release manager was having some problems with the kernel he had built for his home machine (IIRC) and I sent him a little 5-step kernel-compile HOWTO. This guy has a degree in Astrophysics and builds our internal Linux distro from the ground up, he could patch, compile and install a kernel in his sleep. He sent a mildly scathing but friendly response pointing out that I was being an idiot.