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Mozilla 0.9 Out
Malicose writes: "Mozilla 0.9 is out. Improvements include Automatic Proxy Configuration, Personal Security Manager 2.0 with improved performance and UI, and rewritten from scratch image rendering library." Someday this may very well be the best browser in the world. I write this in konqueror, and hope Moz 0.9 uses half the RAM and is twice as fast and convinces me to switch back.
Don't add up the processes.
Notice the 0.9, meaning its pre-release, so leaking memory is acceptable.
libpr0n has been a part of mozilla since 0.8
bad memory could make it crash when it is loading components.
how ironic is it that I just checked out libpr0n.com with konqueror - and konq just shit the bed completely.
( well I guess it's not really ironic since it's mozilla we're talking about but... whatever. )
why do people whine about bugs on slashdot instead of just reporting them to bugzilla.mozilla.org ?
This mozilla is surely going to replace Netscape for me. It's that good.
Wow, a browser good enough to replace the piece of shit known as Netscape?!! Hoo-whee, talk about shooting for the stars! What will these folks on the cutting edge of technology come up with next, an improvement to EGA graphics? I can't wait!
>Not abiding by the license is theft, of labor at least.
:-)
No, it is contract violation. Now, if I stole your copy of the license and tore it up, then it would be theft (and destruction of property). Different things completely.
>Suppose you contract with a programmer to provide you with a small application of some kind.
That is theft of service because you directly asked him to do work for you and offered him money for his time. I don't remember offering Bill Gates money for Win2k, but he made it anyways. And he would have made it whether I choose to compensate him or not. There is no theft of service because the service would have been performed without my compensation.
>And I'm well aware of the futility of arguing this point on Slashdot
It's futile because the dictionary disagrees with you (www.dictionary.com):
theft: The act or an instance of stealing; larceny.
larceny: The unlawful taking and removing of another's personal property with the intent of permanently depriving the owner; theft.
If the owner gets to keep his property [the software] (and he does) after I copy it then I have caused no theft. You cannot have theft without both sides of the equation balancing (removing property AND intent of depriving the owner). Or do you disagree with the dictionary?
There is no doubt or equivocation about it. There is but ONE modern definition for BOTH theft and larceny. If there's any doubt left in your mind verify this with Websters, Oxford, or Roget. Your choice.
I don't need to change your mind, but you need to change your own before you look like bad when your real name gets attached to a comment like that. If it is in the dictionary and you are wrong, just admit it. You'll feel better, and you'll be smarter. People will appreciate you for it. I know, I've said some doozies on slashdot before as well.
This is a well-known bug with Citibank's site.
7 4
It is not a Mozilla problem.
For details:
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=570
--
Forget Napster. Why not really break the law?
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
In a related note, when are X509 Certs for signing/encrypting mail going to be used? This is something that I feel should be in before 1.0, and is the last thing that is keeping me using "Fucking Netscape 4 point X" (as it is known to the guys at work).
IE *really* doesn't handle memory properly. When I have moderator status I go to any /. discussion with > 100 or so comments (nested mode) and scroll a bit, and laugh as IE dies, and suddenly all my other programs start to die or give me the standard "out of memory" errors.
:)
Mozilla under windows doesn't have this problem
I'd be happy to use IE 5.5, but Microsoft aren't interested in porting it to my platform of choice. So sad, never mind.
And I don't view the Web with Outlook...
Mozilla 0.8.1 with psm has worked fine for me, 128 bit mode and all.
Not only do you have to have KDE installed, it has to be running. Everything in KDE relies upon being able to talk to a variety of daemons to handle everything from file browsing to opening up error dialogues.
I've been trying to run some other KDE apps, and am constantly killed by the interdependencies. If I didn't hate the way KDE feels so much I'd switch, but for now I use a decent WM with gnome shoehorned on top of it.
And use mozilla exclusively. It's mail sucks, but the rest is faster and more reliable than NS4.x IMO.
IE5.5 on Win98 seems to let me read kuro5hin just fine. I can moderate and metamoderate on /. just fine too. You sure you're using the latest version?
I just downloaded moz 0.9. I wanna see how much it's improved. I can't wait to have a standards compliant browser. Hopefully it will force MS to get theirs up to snuff too.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Copying software that is not licensed that way is theft.
Nope. It's still just copyright infringement. It's an artificial legal construct to try to give some incentive for creators to continue to create stuff. Not to give them absolute ownership over what they create. They don't actually own the work that they create, they simply own a copyright over that work.
If you want to argue that infringing on a copyright is immoral, I would agree. However, I would also insist that the copyright term extensions that have been bought by the copyright industry are also immoral (especially retroactive extensions as there is no possible way they could provide incentive to create works that have already been created). They don't have any compunctions about using their power to screw the public out of works that should have become public domain by now. I think that the public is starting to lose its compunctions about infringing on copyrights. What goes around comes around I guess.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Remember, the copyright laws allow the GPL to exist just as much as they allow proprietary software to exist.
I'm well aware of this. I'm not against Copyright per se. I'm against the seemingly endless term extensions and further restrictions of our fair use rights. Roll the law back to something more reasonable (such as a term that is shorter thna a human lifespan, preferably much shorter), then get rid of the more onerous portions of the DMCA, and I'd be willing to support copyright. As it exists today, it does nothing but screw people.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Why not create RPM talkback builds for Linux? Installing RPM build is a lot easier, requires almost no manual work and will increase a number of users reporting bugs significantly.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Attaracted by the praises sung to the Konq, I decided to use it myself. So I installed and run it. OK, first of all it brings half the KDE with it, which is very nice if I wanted it. But I *do not*! I don't want the freaking KDE, I just want to see webpages! OK, well, I have enough RAM to waste, so let it be. So I opened one of my beloved pages. And here were the point when things got worse - it showed as the row of "????"s. Yes, it was the page on Russian. There are not only US in the world. And yes, Mozilla showed this page perfectly well without needing any explanations. OK, I'm not lazy, I set the charset manually, though Konq could get it from the HTTP headers. I see the font are _ugly_. Goddamn ugly. Why again Mozilla can show it without me telling it and Konq does not?
OK, now I got page in bearable form. Now I want to get rid of those banners. Oh, no such function. Never mind. I like the site still. I bookmark it. Bookmark comes out as "????" again! Guys, ever heard of Unicode??? Ever imagined page ttles could be not in English only? OK, down with those non-Americans, the should learn to speak human language anyway. Let's continue our journey.
OK, another site - in english now. DHTML menues - do not work. It worked in Mozilla, Netscape, IE. I think I know who is not DOM-compliant here. Never mind, DHTML is for sissies. Let's try to login. Boo! "The processor for https://www.site.com protocol dies unexpectedly". I remember such phrasing from my Windows days. "Something is wrong and we don't have a damn idea what's up and now you are on your own". Well, back to Mozilla. Konq is fast, but what the use of doing the worng thing fast? I prefer doing the right thing slowly. See you in a year, Konq team.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
The MDI interface is exactly why I like Opera. No more clutter on the task bar when I have 10 browser windows open!
Also, Opera remembers what windows it had open last time it ran. When Netscape crashed I just had to try to remember which windows I had opened, with Opera I just restart and I'm back to where I were.
Opera still has a bunch of bugs and crashes every now and then (just like Netscape), but because of the feature I mentioned above, it isn't as much of an event as a Netscape crash. I'd highly recommended Opera to those who haven't yet tried it.
--
All Glory To The Hypnotoad!
You're also forgetting the "They should give up because IE is the best; why NS tries to compete with IE I'll never know, and Windows 2K never crashes for me" trolls.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
I would have to say, as both an avid web-user and a web-developer that IE 5.0 is/was the pinnacle of browsing. Maybe it wasn't any more standards-compliant than the other browsers (probably less so), but it is a MAJOR improvement over the version 4 browsers (Both IE and NN) in terms of speed, stability, and how easy it is to make things work the way you want. Trying to maintain cross-browser compliance is the bane of web development, in my opinion.
I think IE has started going downhill with IE5.5. It crashes more and 5.0 sites have to tweak lots of things to look right in 5.5. I haven't tried 6.0 preview yet, though, maybe it's better?
Netscape Navigator 4 is pathetic in terms of DHTML capabilities, and web-application development. Sure, server-side transforms are fine and dandy, but if you want responsiveness, it has to be done client-side. And you just can't really do it (without crazy layers that take more time to debug than writing the whole app in IE) in NN4.
And I won't install Mozilla until they fix it for multi-user systems. That's just unacceptable. Why should I have to run it setuid/setgid?!?
Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
I'll second this. Mozilla might have a great engine and be totally standards-compliant, but OmniWeb under Mac OS X is simply gorgeous, and has more configuration options than you can shake a stick at. The way OmniWeb's toolbar can be arranged puts Mozilla to shame, OmniWeb's pull-out bookmarks and history drawers are a really neat feature, and my favorite (configurable) feature is being able to command-click on a link to open it in a new window BEHIND the current browser window, for later perusal.
IMHO, Mozilla's greatest fault is that it's just plain ugly. I really think that writing a standard cross-platform set of widgets for it was a bad design idea from the start. They're spending so much time reinventing the wheel! I feel they should have used each operating system's standard widgets while they worked on getting the engine working, and only then should they have added the cross-platform lowest-common-denominator widgets as an option. But, that's just my opinion.
Mozilla tries really hard to have its own distinct look that's different from the rest of the operating system. OmniWeb, on the other hand, feels like a natural part of the operating system -- its preferences are handled the same exact way as the OS, and it showcases a lot of the GUI design features of the OS.
Why? Well, Previous Mozilla versions have had SEVERE trouble with bookmark management. For example, for a long time they had none of the luxury of NS4's "File bookmark" thing. I recently noticed Mozilla 0.8.1 had it somewhere, it had just not worked for me. It seems to work in 0.9 now has even better stuff in Manage Bookmarks thing - No need to drag the stuff around gigantic screens, I can now click on a bookmark and choose File Bookmark from the menus to send a bookmark to another folder. Way cool.
Yeah, it sounds like someone is forging their agent headers.
It's free (libre and gratis) software.
It's multi platform (something konq will never be (and should never be)).
STOP COMPLAINING!
I've only tried it on this linux box (amd 700, 128 megs) but it seems really fast. After clicking around a good bit, it's using some ram, but significantly less than X (according to top, which is known to lie without shame, particularly with memory).
Try it. You'll like it. And if you don't, try konq, or better yet, help the developers make it (either one) better. Even if you just submit bug reports, it helps greatly.
Zapman
Yea baby :)
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
I'll second this, Opera has become my primary Windows browser. I tried (and keep trying) Mozilla but the issues others keep ragging on kept me from adopting it. Opera does have its share of problems, including ones similar to IE with lots of dropdown listboxes on many open windows but overall it is more stable than IE (I still crash it, but not as often) and best of all, it remembers the websites you have open when it crashes. The key to getting used to Opera is in the prerferences, it will seem very strange freshly installed. But a few miniutes checking out various options will get you a browser that isn't very much different from IE or Netscape. Every Netscape 4.x user on windows owes it to themselves to spend some time with it, they just might find they have been missing out on something good.
Chris Cothrun
Curator of Chaos
Bleh!
MTBF For these builds is estimated at 2.168467 hours, based on 1976 reports and 4284.890000 hours of user testing from testers that have crashed and reported problems. (dev. builds tend to have low MTBF)
Hey, thats pretty good, considering the status of the product and the fact that everyone complains about it so much. Those are cold hard numbers that shout "NO, It doesn't crash that often!"
Of course, thats unacceptable for a production release. Any talkback MTBF numbers available for Netscape 4.x? What are the goals for MTBF?
Oh, and BTW, I do have serious reasons for asking, I'm working on a Kiosk style project where we're considering moving from a custom app to a browser based product and need to consider this kind of thing.
Chris Cothrun
Curator of Chaos
Bleh!
Part of the problem is that Mozilla chose to write a good amount of the browser in Javascript. Another part of the problem is that they basically implemented their own distributed component model from scratch, as well as their own widgets, instead of using platform libraries and widgets. I understand the decision to use custom widgets (especially for the HTML), but the custom distributed component model was quite silly. Mozilla is basically GNOME re-implemented running one application. Personally, I find running Mozilla embedded in Galeon to be much, much better. This way Galeon handles all of the non-HTML stuff through GNOME, while Mozilla just does the HTML rendering.
Engineering and the Ultimate
Well, they could have used CORBA, since it does exist everywhere. Or they could have done it the AbiWord way, and use each platform's own component model.
Engineering and the Ultimate
The Slashcode guys would guess that you're alternating between www.slashdot.org and slashdot.org. Stick with just plain slashdot.org. Because of the way the cookie spec was implemented, one cookie cannot cover both IP names; we consider this pretty much a bug, but it's in the spec and there's nothing we (or your browser) can do about it.
Last I heard, someone was going to set up www.slashdot.org so it just did a 301 redirect to slashdot.org, thus avoiding the problem ... apparently not. Hm, slashcode.com is doing that, but not slashdot.org. I'll ask whether someone's going to pick that back up.
If you think the bug is something else besides what I've described here, let me know and I'll see whether it happens on Slash 2.0/2.2 (the only versions being actively developed, though 2.0 will freeze any day now).
Further questions about alleged bugs in Slash should be directed to slashcode.com :)
Jamie McCarthy
Jamie McCarthy
jamie.mccarthy.vg
I agree that the old MDI way they used kind of sucked.
But they've enhanced and made thing better in my opinion. As an example: you used to have to have all windows maximized if you maximized one window. This has the nasty effect of having pop up windows taking up the full screen and blocking everything.
Now they've fixed this and everything is independant. I can have some windows one size, some others full size, some minimized, etc. With these changes I've changed my mind and actually like the MDI model.
Check it out if you used it once and didn't like it the first time. I think it's much better now.
Use the Z-modem protocol between Information Superhighway routers to compress the plaintext. ~LordOfYourPants
No you don't own a copy of Windows. You own a license which allows you to use Windows under very restrictive rules.
Use the Z-modem protocol between Information Superhighway routers to compress the plaintext. ~LordOfYourPants
No you do not own Windows. You buy the media it is on... but you never own windows... only the license. Read your EULA
Use the Z-modem protocol between Information Superhighway routers to compress the plaintext. ~LordOfYourPants
Why is it any more insecure to include the root CAs in Mozilla than to include the SSL code in the first place? Surely that is equally open to tampering?
(Ie, not very, given that all changes to the code must be from known developers or reviewed by known developers.)
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
It seems that the major roadblock is legal review of the crypto-in-main policy amendment. But of course, this proposal is 117 days old as of this writing... with no new news that I've been able to detect.
Does anyone have a clue what the holdup is?
For 2+ years, mine has been:
Mozilla/5.0 [en] (Commodore VIC-20; I)
The funniest thing about this was that someone actually included it in their GPL'd web server log parser, along with the comment similar to, "I'm not sure if this is legit..."
I still chuckle to this day thinking about it. Sadly, they did a complete rewrite and my unique client is no longer a part of the code. :(
Without you I'm one step closer to happiness without violence.
on my machine, and I have the same release as you and WinME. Methinks you have a local problem.
How much memory do you have ?
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Who's going to see that besides people logging in right at the console anyway? I'd be more worried about them stealing the machine than portscanning me. Even issue.net should never get displayed. I mean, what security-conscious person is running Telnet?
-Vic
I've seen your vic20 in logs; it brightened my day, for which many thanks.
Well, I have been running the nightly builds of Mozilla for quite some time now, and I am very happy with the speed improvements that have been landed over the past few weeks.
Mozilla stopped feeling slugish for me about two weeks ago, and ever since it has kept on improving. Great work everyone!
miguel.
Gee, I can write a very small program that can take up more than 30 mb of ram.
You can't compare disk space to memory. Apples and oranges. They're both fruit, but that is about it.
-- Thrakkerzog
if you have a while(1){ malloc(1); } loop, it will take much more than 30 megs after a short time.
The point is that you can't tell how much memory something is going to use just by how big the download was.
-- Thrakkerzog
I was talking in reference to konqueror. :-)
Mozilla JS is very good, although it can be slow when accessing parts of the DOM.
-- Thrakkerzog
Please read the thread. I'm not talking about mozilla, but rather konqueror!
-- Thrakkerzog
there is java support.
Javascript support is pretty good too. Not everything is supported with javascript, but most is.
It gets better by the day.
-- Thrakkerzog
I started using Linux because I couldn't afford software (Photoshop, Visual Studio, etc.) for Windows (not to mention being sick of rebooting and curious about Unix). I was unwilling to use illegal copies of software as it is stealing and I have moral standards to live by.
Believe it or not, many GNU/Linux/BSD users do not consider stealing "not that bad of a solution"...
Point.
I should have said copyright violation. Abiding by copyrights is important if you want to use the GPL and don't want to be a hypocrite.
Abiding by the law is also important. Consider Aristotle who drank the belladonna despite knowing he was innocent and being given plenty of opportunity to escape. He honored the decision of the Senate because he believed that without law there is no civilization and without civilization man is little more than an animal. Of course there is the counter argument that unjust laws should not be followed, but who decides what is just and what is unjust? That is what Congress is for. Congress is corrupt you say? Then we must work to improve it, because a better system has yet to be implemented.
Did I say Aristotle? Doh! I'm an idiot.
It's been ages since I read Plato... please excuse my ignorance.
Your ignorance is a massive, ballooning thing - it lurches through the dirty streets at dawn, crushing cars and tearing out power lines. It is an impressive ignorance, an intractable one. Yours is the sort of ignorance from which entire empires of stupidity are founded, from which entire religions are crafted whole-cloth. I laud your awesome and formidable ignorance.
You're having a bad day, aren't you?
Socrates, not Aristotle.
....i'm writing this under Mozilla 0.9 for the Mac and its FAST! Maybe I'll find something to complain about after a while, but right now, its sweet!
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
Yeah, its called libpr0n, although then its called something else for the public, imglib2 or something?
I think they should have just stuck with libpr0n for the public too, anyone who would find that distasteful probably wouldn't even know what pr0n refers to to get the joke anyways. They'd just think it was some computer mumbo-jumbo.
FiGZ.COM - A waste of perfectly good web space
I just skanked it, before the /. effect took hold. Gotta tell you, it loaded *faster* that Netscape on my PIII/500. I had just typed mozilla & and scooted my chair back to go get a Coke, figuring it would still be loading by the time I got back, and it popped up. Note that this is a busy desktop: xmms, a gazillion xterms and gvim windows, etc etc.
Perhaps these results are far from typical, but if it keeps up, I'm going to remove Netscape once and for all.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
Hey, does someone want to donate a Solaris 2.6 (Sparc) build? There hasn't been one since M17 and after several incredibly frustrating attempts to build one, I've just given up.
-Joe
Sorry, this analogy makes no sense. You create fictional situtation somewhat like copyright infringement, then you assert that it is theft. How is it theft? It's certainly not theft in the eyes of the law. (Neither is copyright infringement, BTW. Completely different sections of law. In fact, in the US, theft is almost always under state law, and copyright infringement is under federal law.)
-David T. C.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
I'm using a ver that was built back in febuary... I have like 192 megs of ram, plus 30 megs of swap in use at the moment... and mozilla is only using at most 20% of memory... thats after its been up for two or three days, with atleast two windows at any given time.
MS-XML3 addresses the XSLT and XML Schema issues -- it's generally done very well on compliance tests.
It can replace the v1 version of MS-XML that ships with IE. IE6, currently in beta, will include it.
Currently, I can't think of any other browser other than IE that even attempts to support XSLT (Mozilla's is stagnent and not planned to be supported until post-1.0), so the point is somewhat moot.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
At least on Win32, Talkback is available through the installer. (Despite what the download page says.)
I agree with your point -- trying to upgrade Mozilla with zip files is a pain, and can lead to the mozreg confilicts, missing plugins, lost profiles, etc. The dummy recommendation should be the installer.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Apologies -- I was looking at the lack of activity on http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18722 . Look forward to trying Moz XSLT out.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
---
I'm expecting 0.9.9g16p2.
I tried Opera and found that it did not handle plugins that well. I find konq to handle the plugins a little better. I still use Netscape 4 to visit Cnet and watch cnet tv, as mozzilla .8 didn't work at that site and neither did opera, or konq.
I think that when mozilla reaches its 1.0 release it may be worth a second look at, but if they just rewrote the image rendering again, then doesn't it beg the question of how many bugs that introduced?
I then look at the system requirements of mozilla and have to say that you are better off with opera, netscape 4.x even. konq is good, and would do fine with those requirements, but it is a little bit of a beast itself too.
Oh and watch out when converting profiles from netscape to mozilla. When .8 did the conversion on mine it too the .netscape directory and grew it emensly, from 7Meg to almost 100 Meg. Why I don't know, but it did. Not sure if this is a bug or what, but I suspect that they are storing the data differently. Besides, why do I have to create a profile for a browser? yes there should be preferences, but not a profile when you start it up. That is really obnoxious. Maybe a prompt "would you like to create a profile" rather than forcing me to create a default profile.
It would be so nice if you could just install just the browser, with NO references to anything else, no composer, no mail, just the browser, AND then configure the browser to use an external mail app, unlike netscape 4.
Can you say.. scope creap / feature creap???
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Opera is available for Linux as well, I use it at work and it works very well.
-- Remember: Wherever you go, there you are!
Well, I personally only care about mozilla
BECAUSE they take their time. I want to see
a PERFECT 1.0 release and be able to use
this as an example of people doing the
right thing: releasing when it's ready.
Remember, free software is not written for
users, it is written for developers themselves
or to quote the waaay overused phrase - "to
scratch their own itch". I want to see what
lack of marketoid pressure produces in the end.
This is a test.
I wonder you accept this as fact rather than
flaw in numbering scheme. If it says it's
a stable release it should be stable.
How is Frontpage deliberately broken? I'm not saying that it isn't - just would like to know.
I guess I was under the impression that the incompatibilities were in the earlier versions of Frontpage. What did I expect from Microsoft? heh
http://www.kmeleon.org/
Warning: This is a REALLY basic browser. But it exists.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
This was on my RedHat 6.2 box.
Not only would it not read SSL pages for me (it just showed a blank page), it crashed on me while I was trying to poke around in the menus to see if there was a toggle to turn on SSL.
PeterM
I don't know about 0.9 but nightly builds used to have this bug still two weeks ago. SSL through proxy didn't work at all. It's fixed in the nightly builds.
-
It's easier to install using the installer.
-
There was not readily available information as to how to install using the zip file, specially if you used the installer to install 0.8.1.
In other words, if you want people to use the talkback enabled build, then provide it in an easy convenient format like RPM for Linux or an installer for Winbloze.----------
In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
...is the non-existance of a tabbed browsing feature/chrome. Look at http://www.netcaptor.com/ (browser I use on the winbox now, uses IE engine) for an example of that.
It's just so much easier to have every new window be a tab...popups never annoy me, taskbar buttons don't get unmanagably small, and so on, and so forth.
-Is- anyone working on something like this for Mozilla? I'd love to know.
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
I'm speaking with regards to my Win32 box; I'm already using mozilla on the Linux one
(Why do I have a win32 box? Games. That is why that box exists, why it will continue to exist until WINE becomes perfect or a lot of games get ported (and old ones backported) to Linux; don't try to persude me to switch on that machine).
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
Maybe you still have some configuration files left over from an older build? That can sometimes throw Mozilla for a loop and make it segfault. It's the only reason I haven't completely switched from NS 4.7x. I don't want to lose my cookies and configuration files. Otherwise, with the latest performance improvements in the browser and the mail client, it would be my only browser/mail reader at home. As it is I still use it as my main browser most of the time.
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
Yes, but will it make Julianne Fries?
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I assume by "better interface", you mean in comparison to Internet Explorer. I know it's personal preference, but I think IE's interface on the mac is pretty slick. Certainly better than Mozilla's two standard themes (though I guess a different theme might change that). On top of that the mac version of IE is the premier browser for standards compliance. You shouldn't have any weird rendering issues with it at all.
That's the price of using themes for the interface. If you want smaller icons, you need a different theme. To my knowledge, Mozilla doesn't allow embedding multiple image sizes in a theme to allow such customization.
I don't know if it's just me or what. Mozilla ALWAYS crashes on me, within 5 minutes of anything I do. For example, one of the first things I did when I got this version was go to: Help->About. Crash. Tried it again and it crashed again.
Hopefully mozilla will improve.. until then I will use konq. for everything I do. I love having the ability to allow/disallow java per web page!
You're in luck ;)
Basically here's the deal. Install the plugins as normal for netscape 4.x
Go into the plugins directory for the 4.x install and copy all the files (except the java and nullplugin) over to the mozilla plugins directory. Restart mozilla and type about:plugins in the location bar. You should see all of your plugins ready to go. The java plugin is a very specific version from java.sun.com. Go to products and look for a side link about jre 1.3.1 rc2 being available. Install it and copy the ns600 plugin to the mozilla plugin directory. You should be all set.
Currently (under the linux version) I have realplayer, java, flash and plugger running along side 0.9 just fine. There's a few pages the java plugin doesn't work on but it's just a few sites that have a java chat applet that I use for testing. No biggie.
Hope this helps.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
I can't get symlinks working either for anything other than plugger.so
/usr/lib/mozilla?
I'd copy the jdk plugin over. I'm not sure why the flash ones aren't working.
What directory is mozilla installed in?
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
I must say that I agree with everyone who talks about how good konq has become. I used to use Netscape 4.x all the time. Then when my GlibC libs didn't want to work with netscape I was forced to used konq. Two weeks later when I had everything sorted out I found konq to be so much more then netscape had been. Faster loading, less memory, faster rendering. I couldn't see myself going back. One of the best parts is that because I run kde the entire enviorment has 1 theme. The browser looks and acts the same as the rest of my desktop. And libs that are used in konq are used in other applications making the total memory usage of my system less. That in itself is worth quite a bit (common ui accross my desktop). I have tried Mozzilla a number of times over the past year, but each time it was less then what I needed. Who knows if this is better then my current konq (kde 2.1.1) , but at this point I havn't found a page (for me personally) that my current konq can't handle and konq looks the same as everything else. When I try out mozzilla I am sure that it will load 30 extra mb of xml, ui, and the backend portable libraries. I know that these are good and all, but I don't really care for all that. All I want it a simple clean browser and so far konq does that for me. I will await the .9 reviews. (and take a look at it myself)
Do you changes clothes while making the "chee-chee-cha-cha-choh" transformation sound?
Just back up you profile directory and delete the folder. Mozilla doesn't really insinuate itself itno your system as far as I can tell. It has worked for me in the past when clearing out old builds and I've never had any problem anyway (Win32 and Linux).
I'll use nothing else nowadays. If the banner ad at the top dosent bother you, its the fastest browser out there, and quite standards compliant. They even have a native flash plug-in now.
http://www.opera.com/
my other penis is a vagina
Since you are apparently on the inside of Mozilla, maybe you can share the bug reporting process?
:-)
:-(
I download a new Mozilla build each week. I often get duplicate crashes (according the Windows' Dr. Watson stack traces). After for first two or three crashes, I stop sending them because I fear my duplicate Talkback bug reports are causing some Netscape employee to curse my name.. "damn! it's that same guy sending in a dozen bug reports for the same silly crash!"
I also get frustrated when I hit the same crash three times a day, but the bug doesn't seem to get fixed after weeks of downloading new Mozila builds..
Keep up the good work!
cpeterso
I'll definitely keep sending in those bug reports now.
btw, I usually copy and paste Windows' Dr. Watson stack traces into the Talkback comment box. Is this of any use to the Mozilla developers? Or can they find the same stack trace by analyzing the Talkback data?
cpeterso
No promotion!? Who said open source software can't be promoted!? With AOL in charge, we'll probably be receiving Mozilla CDs every day in the mail for weeks following the 1.0 release. Seriously though, just because the majority of open source projects are managed by hobbiests who don't have capital to invest in advertising doesn't mean open source companies can't promote their products. AOL/Netscape would be stupid to have invested this much in Mozilla's development and not promote it.
Opera.
Fast, light, solid. Not free, but worth the bucks. A fine example of what Windows software ought to be. Cheap, good, AND fast.
Yeah, yeah, call me a heretic for recommending something that ain't free, much less not berating her for not running Linux.... fsck it, I yearn for the old days when you had to know a few things to get on the 'net. But I'm not gonna be a sourpuss about it. If they figure out the Linux guys are helpful, just maybe we'll get a few converts. :)
> Plus, I hope I give some admins a good laugh now and then. If you ever see this in your server logs, you'll know it's me: Mozilla/6.666 (Atari 2600)
Mine's been running on an Apple][ for the last couple of years. According to your logs, that is.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Sorry, but you're a little clueless.
> and yes, there's a "linux port", Gecko, for the uninformed.
Gecko is the Mozilla rendering engine period. It's not platform specific.
>Actually, Kmeleon was ported from Galeon's Gecko engine
No, Galeon uses Mozilla's gecko engine via the GTK+ mozilla embedding widget (gtkmozembed). K-Meleon uses an analogously similar embedding widget for Windows.
For some reason, I always have to login twice. The first time nothing happens and the page just reloads, the second time I'm logged in properly. This is not a mozilla problem since I have this problem with any browser (I tried konq, opera, ie). Also it happens on any computer I tried (so it is not a connection issue either). My guess is that the login scripts are a bit messy (probably due to the use of perl), not in the last place beacause slashdot seems to be the only site where I have this problem.
Jilles
Why the name "libpr0n"?
The main goal of the library is to render pornographic images in an efficient way. Plus, the name "imglib2" is boring.
Actually most of 0.8->0.9 was fixes and rewrites of core functions.
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
I do all my online banking with Mozilla, no problems so far. In fact, .9 is nice as it renders the home page of my bank (http://www.sfnb.com) correctly at last.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I was just going to ask that very question, if using talkback helped at all - I've been trying to use Talkback the whole time and have the .9 Talkback build installed now. It just caught a nasty bug dealing with a odd SSL certificate...
One thing I was wondering though is if it made any difefrence adding in comments and URL's. I add them anyway figuring it might help, but wasn't sure people ever read them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The only place to get talkback builds is from mozilla.org (or a mirror). I'd be very surprised if Ximian used talkback unless they're repackaging our builds.
The Talkback server is owned by Netscape so only builds provided to mozilla.org by Netscape can do talkback. Netscape doesn't build RPM's (blizzard at redhat makes those), Red Carpet only works with RPMs (i think) so no, I don't anticipate you getting talkback through Ximian.
Here's a sample crash analysis page. Watch out, this page is 2+ MB.
According to validator.w3.org, absolutely nothing (which, I suppose, was your point).
-- Help Digitise the Public Domain at DP.
The browser environment I'm used to, with (buggy, constantly crashing) Netscape, and (in moments of weakness and desperation, forgive me!) Explorer, is to open web pages in separate windows, where I can move the windows around with other, non-browser windows.
Opera does not use this model. In Opera, you have a "browser" window, and all the web pages you're browsing are inside this "Opera" master window.
This wastes screen real estate, and is far less flexible. Perhaps if I'd started using this model, I'd like it and hate the Netscape/Explorer way, but there it is. I much prefer the separate window per web page model.
Perhaps there's an option in Opera to do it the Netscape/Explorer way, but I didn't spend much time with it. It crashed on me within a half hour of starting to use it, and I haven't used it since. The only reason I was interested in it in the first place was the promise of more stability. (Explorer is pretty stable, but it is, of course, Evil.)
I did just discover a marvelous feature of Opera -- When I go to a web page that has some absurdly tiny font, I can just hit that scale factor in the upper right hand corner of the window, and expand that sucker into readability!! I was just at a page (the gracenote.com "open letter") which was a teensy unreadable blurry font in Netscape, even when I told it to USE MY (#*$*(@#$ FONTS NO MATTER WHAT THE @#($&(@#(@ DOCUMENT SAYS, AND I MEAN IT WHEN I SAY 72 POINT!! but it didn't change the font from their "Flyspeck 2". In Opera, the page was readable at the "normal" size. A bit smaller than I'd like but fine. And I could make it bigger with a single click and drag on the top of the window, not trudging around in menus to get to the font select.
So I guess I'll keep Opera around. Maybe it will grow on me.
Javascript is supported more than just "pretty good". If you're talking about DOM support this statement makes a little more sense. Mozilla does not support all of the Communicator 4.x and IE proprietary DOM stuff. Layers implemented using the Comm. 4.x or IE methods will not work in Mozilla but Layers implemented using W3C standards should work, for example.
--Asa
A Google search shows that this isn't completely safe:
Byte Article
Your design to a real part online: Big Blue Saw
Mozilla is getting really nice. I know it's come slow, but it's here, and think about where it was a year ago. The advancement is stunning. I've only been using it everyday for like 5 months now but gaah it's awesome.
I've just been playing with .9 a bit, and it appears that the Junkbuster proxy actually works with it! Woo hoo!
That's funny, Netscape is infinitely faster than IE on my Linux boxes... I guess you could call that a performance issue.
To within half a percent, pi seconds is a nanocentury. -- Tom Duff
Windows NT's system monitor lies. That much memory isn't being reclaimed and reallocated that quickly.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
ESD worked just fine for me... just scuffed my shoes on the carpet, pointed my finger, and *ZAP*. Perfect.
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
--
Geez, talk about an easy solution.
Are you building yourself? Or using the nightlys?
It runs on the operating systems people use... I need a browser that runs on Linux, Irix, and Solaris for my day-to-day browsing. I want one that also runs on Windows/Mac for those special occasions when I use them. What are my options exactly?
That remains to be seen, as the debian packages of 0.9 have not yet been created....
Pretty well. For one thing it runs on the OSes I need a browser on....
On large mailboxes the front end is up to 20 times faster than the old one when scrolling and the like.
Er... What exactly is supposed to be fixed about the site?
Linux is fine with 32M of RAM... as a server. There is no way to comfortably run X in 32M of RAM and expect to run anything else and not swap. Such is life.
There is something to say about page designers whose sense of "how pages were meant to appear" is based on how IE renders those pages.....
That said, they were compiled with gcc 2.91 and -O1, and gcc 2.91 sucks. Moving to 2.95 just now made a significant performance difference.
The bug exists to convince citibank to fix their script. And a user-agent-spoofing panel is going to be in prefs in the near future most likely.
Right. :) The guy who wrote the site is the head of the standards-compliance group for Mozilla...
Huh? If I grab the soda the store does not have it anymore and can't sell it to anybody. that's stealing. If I go to the store and take picture of the soda, or videotape it or magically copy it and drink it then the store still has the same soda.
War is necrophilia.
It seems to me that it have something to do with mimetypes, as the pluing only identifies itself for .rpn files. In fact in later builds of mozilla/galeon the nullplugin crash when trying to
identify the plugin prefered for the file.
Anybody has any info on this subject?
- german
Galeon, a mozilla based browser, uses tabbed browsing. I use it as my primary browser and have no major complaints. You might have to wait a bit until a mozilla.9 compatible version is available however.
galeon.sourceforge.net
You, or possibly your machine, are on serious crack. 0.9 is way faster than 0.8.1 on Unix for most people.
BTW 0.9.1 will be a LOT faster and smaller than 0.9. Some major pieces of work have already landed or are about to land:
-- XPCDOM (slightly faster across the board, >2MB space saved on startup)
-- "Paint throttling" (~10% speedup on page loads)
-- HTTP rework (~10% page load speedup, sometimes more)
-- gcc -O2 on Linux (~10% page load speedup)
Maybe when Moz starts supporting MDI (post 1.0?) someone could create a opera clone with it (shouldn't be too hard, just XUL/RDF/XBL/CSS/Javascript).
Basic
But only in certain use cases. Such as: not using it. In Windows, just minimize Mozilla, and watch the RAM usage drop from, in my one experiment, 25MB to 5MB. Maximizing it brings it back up to 15MB.
--
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Every time I read praises for Opera - especially as opposed to the "big two" browsers - I need to say this: Opera is up to 5.0 now, and it still only supports ISO-8859-1 character set. Something that MSIE and Netscape got right before versions 3.0 of each. Opera is a laugh.
"Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity." - Marshall McLuhan
I went looking for the mathML and SVG enhanced betas on their project site. Found a x686 RPM that I installed. This mozilla is more responsive than IE or Netscape. Menus fly. Maybe I just got lucky? I'm running Mandrake 7.2 on an 800Mhz Athlon, just 128MB ram...
Indeed, check out libpr0n.com
http://www.talknerdy.org
Please dont use the word "stealing". If you want, I'll come around your house and take your car for a spin and leave it floating in a lake. Then you will know what stealing is. Please, you insult people who have actually been victims of theft. I dont even have to go into the definition of the word to give you good reasons not to use it. Would you go on a skiing trip and tell everyone you meet that you're homeless? Or buy a new car that has repayments equal to your monthly wage and tell everyone that you're poor? It's not just because it is the wrong word, it is insulting. Dont do it.
How we know is more important than what we know.
mozilla 0.9 was rocking me, then I read your post and the one below it and did renice -10 and now it is blazing fast.. damn, thanks.
How we know is more important than what we know.
here's a tip: you're the only one. I have been using mozilla for the last 12 months and from day one I had no problem logging into Slashdot. I just updated to 0.9 and didn't even have to login again.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Yer.. you're better of porting khtml to an activex control. hmm.. now there's an idea.
How we know is more important than what we know.
I hope Mozilla will have good external program support (mutt, tin, et al.). ... What's a stack?
------
I'm an assembly guru
The Javascript and XML engines still load, which means I'm still waiting for a browser to start. ... What's a stack?
------
I'm an assembly guru
The only times I've had problems with /. logins is when I've used the www. prefix. And some links from outside seem to disregard the cookies.
Don't know if this is a Mozilla problem. IIRC, the same thing happens with Navigator 4.x.
WWTTD?
- performance, performance, performance.
If you ever thought Moz was slow, get 0.9. Damm, that is one fast browser.
-- "So, what's the deal with Auntie Gerschwitz et all?"
I think there's a RFE for slicing and dicing, but it does make chop suey in five different ways.
-- "So, what's the deal with Auntie Gerschwitz et all?"
djb writes great code, but his license is nuts. I love qmail and have thought about it a bit and have come up with the following legitimate problems with not allowing modified redistribution.
1. You will never see qmail included as the default MTA in any free OS. Whoever is doing the packaging/migration into the distribution is going to want to make patches at some point or perhaps change the directory layout. Not to mention that it interferes with certain goals of some projects to provide completely free as in speech software.
I can understand his qualms about insecure versions being produced. Why not address this in the same way as the artistic license by making it so that only djb can produce binaries called qmail and other people would have to change the name to indicate that they are distributing modified versions (call them OpenBSD-qmail or something).
2. I can't use his libraries for my own projects. One point that he raises on his web page is that he's got a much more efficient dns resolver than the one that ships in BIND. Great, he gets to use that in qmail and his programs, but if I want to use it, I have to ensure the user has a copy of djbdns installed just so that I can make use of a small part of the program. Is linking against his libraries even allowed under his license?
The other thing that really peaves me is that he ships what I consider incomplete versions. djbdns does not include installation instructions or man pages in the tarball (the latest from his webpage). Instead, he expects you to read them off his website. This is damn inconvenient and it suggests to me that he wants to measure the usage of djbdns or some such. If so, it's a pathetic means of doing it. I hate control of information, especially in a case like this. You can man-ify the html, but why make people do extra work.
I've also heard that he doesn't comment his code. Given that he doesn't mind people writing patches, why not make it a bit easier to understand what's going on.
qmail is great and from what little experience I had with it djbdns isn't bad either. I just wish he would lighten up a bit. At least some outside patches are finding there way into djbdns but qmail could use a minor update to clarify the documentation (drop support for inetd) and include 1 or 2 of the performance patches out there.
As somebody on slashdot previously wrote, "nobody codes more paranoid than djb." Hopefully qmail 2.0 will include some cool stuff we he has it finished.
Offtopic, but for anybody having problems with junkbuster breaking certain pages with mozilla, you can fix this by disabling keep-alive in the Debug -> Networking section
DJB absolutely does not want any changes made to the directory structure. That is the principal reason he gives for being so anal about distribution. The packagers WANT to change the directory layout - it provides additional support for them. Having a package install in exactly the same place everywhere makes it easy to admin everywhere.
/var/qmail directory is great. Why not make the license something like the BSD license with the explicit condition that you never, ever change the directory structure and if you make changes, change the name. That way it can be the default MTA.
:) There are plenty of other academics who are a bit less unusual. He's put out lots of great software, this I will not dispute. It's rather interesting to see that he's able to write what is generally faster, more secure software as one person working alone than teams of developers.
I wholeheartly agree with this. Having everything in the
The rationale is that there are frequency upgrades to documentation, and the website will always be up to date.
That's fair but ideally your documentation should reflect the current version. Your interfaces aren't going to change after they're written and the tools will still accept the same switches as when they're released. The documentation should be functionally complete for the version that's being released.
OK. Bernstein is a little quirky. It often comes with being an academic. However, he has done a lot for free software even in just considering his cryptography court battle. And he has written a lot of software as free as QT 1.0 if not free-er. http://cr.yp.to/software.html
I think it comes with being DJB
In a perfect world, it would be nice if his license loosened up a little. But he who writes the software gets to choose the license, and DJB makes things as free as his own sense of what is right in software allows. If he were to GPL his programs, then all the distributors would alter directory structures. And he thinks that is bad. So he allows unrestricted binary distribution with the exception that the distribution has to occur EXACTLY as the tarball build would make it.
Not quite that simple, from http://cr.yp.to/qmail/dist.html:
(3) the package's creator warrants that he has made a good-faith attempt to ensure that the package behaves correctly. It is not acceptable to have qmail working differently on different machines; any variation is a bug. If there's something about a system (compiler, libraries, kernel, hardware, whatever) that changes qmail's behavior, then that platform is not supported, and you are not permitted to distribute binaries.
To me, all patches change behavior. In order to include qmail in the src tree of the bsds, you will have to make modifications to the makefiles, etc. However, he does specify that he may make exceptions if you email him, I may just have to ask him about it.
I'm not suggesting he GPL his software. Just make it a bit easier to include as the default MTA in linux and bsd (e.g. allowed _labelled_ changes). Though, I can see some people rejecting it solely on the basis of the directory layout...
Anyway, I'm beginning to see that I'm getting a bit anal about this. Just liking free software, I'd like his stuff be a bit more free (and send sendmail to the retirement home).
The things I've read said that currently the Mac port is the worst of the three main ones in terms of stability/performance (not a dis on Macs, but just the way Mozilla is). However, I'm suprised to hear its that bad.
BTW, the interface is pretty much fixed. You can add and remove some of the buttons, but if you want real change get new themes. New themes are available thru the view, apply themes, get new themes menu (which takes you to x.themes.org's theme site). The Lopburi flat theme is great, if the guy ever gets around to removing the text labels from the buttons.
There should be a nice performance gain when they move to gcc 2.95.3 and start using -O2 to optimize as well.
.9 release.
See http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53486 for details.
The only reason this hasn't happened yet is they didn't want to introduce potential compiler and optimization issues right before the
I think the statement is, "When monkeys fly out of my butt." Yeah, that's the one. Come on guys! Get this thing done already, would ya? Thanks.
--
+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
It should be "grep -ir fuck /usr/src/linux", otherwise you miss a Fuck. Specifically:
Finally, there's no reason to keep using Netscape 4.7x
Hopefully this means it's DNS problems have been fixed. A bug that at least existed 3 days ago was that certain web sites could not load because Mozilla couldn't resolve an IP from the name. While every other network application installed on my machine could.
If you want a version of Mozilla which was rushed out the door, use Netscape 6.0. If you feel masochistic, that is.
--
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
I have two reasons to also keep my Netscape 4.7
1.
My netbank only works with Netscape 4.7
(not even Netscape 4.76)
My bank is actually the biggest in Denmark and
they told me that they only support Internet
explorer. Hmm. Maybe time to change to some of
many smaller bank which netbank actually
works on netscape.
Another example of big isn't better.
2. live365.com doesn't work with Netscape 6 nor Mozilla. And they know it too because they
write it directly on their pages.
If the code and the comments disagree, then both are probably wrong. - Schryer
If you download the latest nightly build you'll see they're working on a new modern skin, and man does is look better and more professional than the current skins.
---
It's in the latest nightlies and will be in 0.9.1
---
I believe that the reason you feel the menus are are so slow on mozilla is not actually do to mozilla's design be rather how linux handles thread context switching.... try reading the thread around my post on it in a separate discussion. I noticed mozilla menus felt much better after this change.. just as fast if not faster than netscape.
Ian
include/asm-mips/mmu_context.h:/* Fuck. The f-word is here so you can grep for it :-) */
-----
-----
"A man is judged by his every word." -RW Emerson
"They misunderestimated me." -GW Bush
You don't have to install Chatzilla or the Mail/News client if you do not want to. BTW, there are those of us who really like these features.
It has the following
* slicing
* dicing
* an XML term you'll never use
* a 100% cross platform XML GUI, which would be a cool development tool if there was any interest in the browser part of the equation, which still doesn't work
However, it lacks the following features:
* A responsive GUI. I don't care of its runs faster with a different timeslicing value, other apps are responsive without tuning my kernel.
* The ability to save web pages intact. IE has this. Opera has this. Konq will hopefully get it soon.
* Stability, in any nightly or milestone or beta build I have ever tried
Wake up people. Mozilla is a text book case of how NOT to manage an Open Source project. Konq and Opera have a very bright future, as does gecko, sans all the XMS stuff that's been holding up the project forever.
I'm hoping my perpetual lack stable mozilla, across multiple machines, OSs, and stable / nighly / beta builds, is some bizzarre coincidence. I'd like to find out. Could you do the following:
1. Click a menu item. Eg, 'Tasks'
2. Hit the left arrow ten times
Doe the web browser fail to provide any response whatsoever for you too?
Mike
* You compare it to other browsers in your advocacy, so we have the right to respond
,evaluating Mozilla in a negative way (if this is how you truly feel) helps Open Source by eliminating wasted effort into what seems a black hole of `wouldn't it be cool if' technologies. It also allows OSS to avoid the pitfalls of this project - ie, trying to design pixel for pixel perfect XML based cross platform GUIs for *all* applications before the web browser that's at the center of the project has been finished.
* Open Source software should be held up to the same quality standards as closed source software. They way it can improve.
* It replaced something that was being actively maintained and improved, and after 2 years has not seen a major release.
* Netscape users pay for the browser with their eyeballs and the chance that the qality of the clients will make them pay for Netscape servers. Currently that is not the case.
* AOL users (who pay for their browsers directly via sibscriptions) might end up having a modified version of this as their web browser. Their money pays Netscape engineers to work on Mozilla.
Even if you just submit bug reports, it helps greatly.
Basically
I'm posting this from Mozilla 0.9. There's no `up button' at the top of this entry form. I can't save this page and keep it intact. The file -> open dialog box displays my files as being in 1970,and takes three seconds to leave my screen when I click `cancel'.
he packagers WANT to change the directory layout - it provides additional support for them.
Bullshit conspiracy theory. The distro's want to chaneg the directory stucture for logic and consistently - ie, to meet the File Heirarchy System (which is used on Linux and Open Source BSD Unix-like OS)s.
Qmail might be great according to some people. Qmail might have source available. Like Windows in both respects. Neither conforms to the Open Soure Definition. The only distribution that includes Qmail packages is Debian, which applies a giant diff as a hack to get around the licensing issue.
I have to ensure the user has a copy of djbdns installed just so that I can make use of a small part of the program.
I'm not sure about that part, but you do have to make sure the user has installed DJBDNSd, in a way that is different than every other piece of software instlled on their system and which is in violation of the Linux Standards Base.
But he who writes the software gets to choose the license,
Agreed 100%
DJB makes things as free as his own sense of what is right in software allows.
Fine. The problem people have with Qmail is that many users claim that is Open Source, when it is not.
Ditto. This happens with *every* browser, on *every* platform, on *every* machine, until the cookie gets installed.
Anyone else? Are any of the Slashcode guys aware of this?
I concur. I remember when the menus were horrendously slow, but my Bookmarks menu takes up the entire vertical screen height, and even it appears really quickly now (April 28 build).
--
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Dude, Edit->Preferences->Appearance->
and I quote:
When Mozilla starts up, open
_ Navigator
_ Composer
X Mozilla Mail
end quote.
--
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Try Galeon for Linux - it's based off of mozilla and does tabbing.
The login thing with knoq si the only thing that stops me from using it 100% of the time right now. Doesn't only happen with ebay, slashdot k5 and a bunch of others mess up too. Can't figure it out for the life of me.
When the mail browser doesn't appear to have been written by a ham-fisted clod.
.8x mail reader is hands down faster than the .6x reader, but honestly, I could write a better performing mail reader with my big toe after a case of Guinness (and I'm a lightweight). The mail shouldn't gum up with only a couple hundred messages in my inbox.
The
-
Just because it works, doesn't mean it isn't broken.
Welllllllll if you don't want graphics. (it can't render correctly transperancey in either .gif or .png files) Don't feel the need to use PHP or CSS. Avoid Java and Javascript.... it works pretty well. I'd say in a year or two they could have a browser as good as Netscape 1.0 maybe even IE 3.0 I'm sorry but I'm sticking with Konqueror.... it works. AND it fits on a 20 gig drive *grin*.
I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.
Or, if you still want to be able to launch Navigator quickly, just run mozilla.exe -mail.
The shareholder is always right.
For most software, x.0 releases are the most unstable versions. Is there a reason for open-source software to use a different version numbering scheme?
The shareholder is always right.
I while back a wrote a "server check" function for a client using the Perl lwp package. The application pulled down the front page every 15 minutes. For the client string I flipantly put in "playstation 2.0"
Sometime later I was present at a highlevel design review and someone had a slide with browser breakdown and there at the top was "Playstation 2.0". I barely was able to restrain a smile and I did not want to embarrass the presenter. Some folks even commented that they didn't know the new game toy came with a browser !
Should I wait or uninstall old v0.8 and then install 0.9? Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question (Linux newbie). Thanks! :)
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Yes, I've seen this problem too. It's a real pain in the ass to get the settings right. Konq is just so visually disgusting I can't stand to use it. The fonts, the buttons, bleh, I'd rather use Netscape 4.x... err... on second thought, Konq is really pretty decent ; )
I prefer Mozilla though, but I run it on a Tbird 900, so... The speed is definately improving though, I think when it's done it will be great.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
> Someday this may very well be the best
> browser in the world
Yeah. And then Microsoft will release IE7 and we'll be back to square one. You really think that Microsoft won't? They're not going to throw their hands in the air over this you know.
xx Stuii!
> It renders much like IE
That's just the whole thing with Mozilla though isn't it. "How close to IE is it?", "nearly as good as IE!", "I hate IE but it's a good browser, someone write me one that does exactly what IE does".
That's wrong. Mozilla needs to SURPASS Internet Explorer to be taken seriously. Like the Dyson commercials, if you really want something that does what IE does, then bloody get IE and stop whining.
xx Stuii!
Best of all, the newest version of Opera has gesture-based navigation, similar to Black & White. You don't never even need to take your hand off your mouse while browsing. Convenient, time-saving, efficient, incredibly small memory footprint, uses Netscape plugins....and it actually follows w3c standards. I haven't really had any major problems with /. on Win98/Opera 5.11
--- "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ~ Ben Kenobi, 'Return of the Jedi'
24-hour banking!?! I don't have time for that.
24-hour banking!?! I don't have time for that.
-- Steven Wright
Well, if you remove half the ram you should get a 20% decrease in performance, not 25%.
Start with memory amount M, double it to 2M and get 1.25 the performance (25% gain), then remove half of that back to M and return to performance 1.0, which is a 20% loss.
Hello, my name is Robert Lerner, and I pronounce Lernux as "99% cpu"
Can someone please repost how to do this? I think it was posted in discussion of an earlier release, but I can't find it. I think it's a line in prefs.js
--
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
I'm not sure if this is why you got Netscape 8, but under a few browsers (iCab and Opera) you can specify what identity you browser returns.
# user-agent specifies treatment of the "User-Agent:" (and "UA-*:") header(s)
#user-agent @
user-agent Mozilla/6.666 (Atari 2600)
You can even report different agents to different websites. Good if you have to deal with dumbass websites on a regular basis.
I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
Well, the biggest one is to prevent stupid sites from refusing to serve you just because you're not using browser X. They're almost always wrong. I'll take my chances, thank you, I don't need you playing Mommy.
If you're paranoid, there are certain browser-specific bugs that a malicious website can take advantage of if they know your exact version. Better to keep them guessing. (You have cleaned out your /etc/issue file so it doesn't say exactly what version of what OS you're running... right?! If you do, you might as well as change it to "PORTSCAN ME NOW, WORLD!")
And, it's always a good thing to throw some entropy into to some marketroid's demographics.
Plus, I hope I give some admins a good laugh now and then. If you ever see this in your server logs, you'll know it's me:
Mozilla/6.666 (Atari 2600)
I like the images that this conjures.
I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
oops.. my mistake.. blame it on the six pack.. and bad formatting..
whattafuck are you using for a command line? Howabout just sticking to cd 'mozilla dir';./mozilla or ./run-mozilla.sh. Hasn't crashed not once.. Not even the latest version..
p.s. try memtest..
What are you using, a 286? Jeez, my dns servers don't even resolve "slashdot.org" that quickly.
Try djbdns on your local box. The answer to the broken bloated security risk that is BIND. Install it and never think about your DNS again. If you are not a DNS box, install it anyway to resolve local queries only.
DJBDNS
Hmm. Unlikely at best. But the fact is that this browser is very stable (java has not crashed my browser since a nightly DL'd a week ago) It's quite fast on a 450 PII with 128MB of ram, and the rendering engine rocks my world. Finally, there's no reason to keep using Netscape 4.7x
Konq under linux has mozilla beat no question for speed and font handling.
I am seeing about a 10 MByte difference in RAM for the process (explaining the loading time difference).
Konq is a GREAT example of the power of open source. Mozilla is a GREAT example how maintaining a cross-platform application can slow development to a crawl. Konq seems to have been written in half the time, and yet people who have honestly given both a try recently are quite fond of konq. (Abiword is another example of how cross-platform development can make open source move as fast as Microsoft). To add to that, my perception is that about 1/10th the programming time was placed into konqueror (of course, konqueror doesn't come with a free xmlterm...)
License smicense. Bernstein is quite a good programmer. His license basically says you can use it, but you cannot distribute changes to it. You can freely distribute binaries AS LONG AS the binary dist make the installation EXACTLY the way the tarball build would do it. It is definitely free as in free beer.
If you use BIND, every few months you need to upgrade to avoid an exploit. BIND is responsible for more remote root exploits over the last 10 years than almost any other piece of software. The configuration is a total mess. If you use sendmail, the configuration is a mess, and it used to be the case that there was a remote root exploit of the month.
Now, if you use djbdns, it builds trivially. It is easy to set up. It is 100% secure. You have the source, and you can freely modify it FOR YOUR OWN NEEDS. The same is true of qmail. You can even send your changes back to Bernstein - he may incorporate them. He is NOT making $$ off the programs. His rationale for not allowing distributions of modification (I think) is that he is totally anal about details for security, and wants to oversee ANY distribution of his source.
So don't start barking about licensing issues unless you were one of the people browsing the web with lynx instead of netscape when lynx was the only opeen source option. Bernstein's code is very good software. And secure. And fast.
1. You will never see qmail included as the default MTA in any free OS. Whoever is doing the packaging/migration into the distribution is going to want to make patches at some point or perhaps change the directory layout. Not to mention that it interferes with certain goals of some projects to provide completely free as in speech software.
DJB absolutely does not want any changes made to the directory structure. That is the principal reason he gives for being so anal about distribution. The packagers WANT to change the directory layout - it provides additional support for them. Having a package install in exactly the same place everywhere makes it easy to admin everywhere.
2. I can't use his libraries for my own projects. One point that he raises on his web page is that he's got a much more efficient dns resolver than the one that ships in BIND. Great, he gets to use that in qmail and his programs, but if I want to use it, I have to ensure the user has a copy of djbdns installed just so that I can make use of a small part of the program. Is linking against his libraries even allowed under his license?
Sure it is. You can link against any software on your machine. He states quite explicitly "So I promise I won't sue you for copyright violation for downloading documents from my server. " You should also read his statements that you own the copy of the software you download, and read
http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.html
The other thing that really peaves me is that he ships what I consider incomplete versions. djbdns does not include installation instructions or man pages in the tarball (the latest from his webpage). Instead, he expects you to read them off his website.
The rationale is that there are frequency upgrades to documentation, and the website will always be up to date.
OK. Bernstein is a little quirky. It often comes with being an academic. However, he has done a lot for free software even in just considering his cryptography court battle. And he has written a lot of software as free as QT 1.0 if not free-er
http://cr.yp.to/software.html
In a perfect world, it would be nice if his license loosened up a little. But he who writes the software gets to choose the license, and DJB makes things as free as his own sense of what is right in software allows. If he were to GPL his programs, then all the distributors would alter directory structures. And he thinks that is bad. So he allows unrestricted binary distribution with the exception that the distribution has to occur EXACTLY as the tarball build would make it.
Heck, I run a box at home, and I sleep a little better knowing I am running djbdns and qmail instead of sendmail and BIND. And I find his licensing free enough and rational enough for me.
So get off your soap box, I value freedom more than the security garuntee of 1 man who can write decent applications, but has no sense of freedom. And I've used that word alot, More than I like to, but price is not the issue, Thats not what the GPL is all about. If DJB would put his stuff under the GPL, I might just use it. But whatever you do, regardless, Dont get on the soapbox saying sendmail and bind are bad, and we should take away our current freedoms to use it. Theres a reason sendmail handles an estimated 80% of all email traffic. Its good, Its popular, And its free (as in speech)
Sendmail is responsible for the majority of remote root exploits in the 80s. Some of us didn't forget all the pleasant re-installs.
Sendmail is a bloated slow pig of a piece of software. It is so difficult to configure that Allman wrote another program just to write sendmail.conf files - creating the m4 format.
Qmail is small, fast, and easy to configure.
But let us consider whether djb produces free software. Quoting from the Debian Free Software Guidelines.
1) Free distribution - djb passes
2) Provide source - djb passes
3) Derived works - djb passes - he allows anyone to distribute patches - the same as QT 1.0.
4) Allowing distribution of modified source or patches. djb fails. Patches should be distributed separately,
5-9) Discrimination, contamination... djb passes.
So when you say it is not Free Software, and if we consider the Debian sense of free software, the argument is really about allowing patches to be distributed with the source.
And if you go to GNU, and make the same arguments, you find it has ALL of the freedoms associated with free software. GNU lists those freedoms as
1) The freedom to run the program, for any purpose
2) The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
3) The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor
4) The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits.
Again, the only potential stopping point is that you may not distribute patches with the source - they must be distributed separately. And if you are going to get on some moral soapbox about distribution of patches separately for someone whose principal concern is preserving directory structure of his software across distributions, maybe you should take a long hard look in the mirror and see who is concerned about freedom. I am MUCH more concerned about licensing issues surrounding QT, where they require you to pay if you incorporate QT in commercial software. DJB software is ALWAYS free as in free beer, and the only way in which it is not Free Software is that patches must be distributely separately.
Besides, you gotta love a programmer who offers his own money for anyone finding a security bug in his program. If Allman offered $500 for each security bug in Sendmail, he would have declared bankruptcy in 1985.
1) The mail client is deathly slow and nearly unusable. (I'm running on an Athlon 500).
2) Frequent crashes on pages that do anything JavaScript which IMHO should be sent to programming language gulag.
3) Lastly, the countless little bugs that have made their way through each subsequent release. The focus seems to have shifted away from a lightweight, stable browser to a bloated, feature-encrusted core dumper.
Let me make it clear that I want Mozilla to succeed, but the prime reason I was attracted to trying it out (lightweight & stable) seems to have been scrapped.
But is it as good as Netscape 0.9 was? You can find out for yourself - the download is still here: http://www.capnwacky.com/downloads/netscp09.zip
gets weirder on my system, also w/ macos 8.6. most of the menu items under file and edit are greyed out 'blank item' deals--including the quit item. i had to force quit out to close it.
i'll stick w/ 0.8.1, which has been my main browser for quite a while now.
-- the opinions stated above aren't those of my employer. in fact, they're probably not even my own. you know what, ju
When I can HIGHLIGHT and COPY the subject in an email message, call me.
I'm so disgusted with Mozilla words can not describe.
Trust me
I have used Gnome with Mozilla in the past, but KDE 2.x that comes with Slackware-Current seems a lot better solution now. The only thing is that KDE 2/Konqueror takes up a LOT of ram, but I guess the speed is nice, and with ram prices being so low it does not matter that much anymore.
This space intentionally left blank.
The other advantage Microsoft enjoys in this regard, besides being able to hire 50% of the most highly paid C++ developers in the world, is that whatever path they beat down through the forest of complexity becomes The Standard.
Meanwhile, Mozilla's Shoot for the Moon in terms of cool features, rendering speed, stability, cross platform portability, low memory footprint have produced a Procrustean bed that is taking about as long to implement as you might expect. (And here I though my company held a lock on this kind of development model. Many the local ego has been comforted with a retort of
Absolute conformance to the latest complicated W3C standards just sets the high bar at 32 feet instead of just 28 feet for the Mozilla programmers.
I really admire the great effort that's gone into Mozilla thus far. There are really some impressive designs, ideas and programming in that pile of code. I only hope that their slow steady progress eventually wins out, even after all the spectators get tired and go home.
The cool doodads like Mail/News readers, etc. have been beaten like a dead horse by many previous posters as being too peripheral to the mission of a web browser.
My question is this:
"Provided by the management for your protection."
This will be the best open-source browser, and will win favor in the embedded market. Mozilla will live on -- I, and many others, want something that's done right rather than first.
I have a feeling we'll all be in for a real treat once 1.0 hits the net.
Alright, alright. I have been looking forward for Mozilla 1.0 for a long time, wanting to get rid of Netscape Crashigator 4.x and finally have a weapon to shoot at MS Internet Integrator from my desktop.
Too bad I've been waiting too long.
Listen, I'm big into bashing IE, because I hate internet integration, hate the MS behemoth, and want some competition, just like most others here on the board (yes, we all love Linux, but the majority of us STILL use Windows on AT LEAST one desktop). But Mozilla is REALLY PUSHING its time frame here. Before any flame throwers come around telling me that I'm not patient enough, just try and think about it for a second...
...Slashdot just ran an article a couple articles back about a satire of a company who kept telling investors that it has a kick-ass piece of software that will take the market by storm. Only problem was that they were never able to produce their product. What happened to the company? It kicked the bucket.
Now, granted, Mozilla has kept showing us its improvements, its great abilities, its scarce use of resources, its stablility, etc. But for crying out loud,
PRODUCE THE PRODUCT!!!
Although I'm sure the final product is going to be great,
1) These three years of waiting have caused Microsoft to nearly win out 85% of the browsing market by now.
2) The latency has caused AOL to release "Netscape 6.0" with a beta version of Mozilla and Gecko which is a piece of crap and unstable with all the bogus utilities included in it. Yes, it means nothing to the geek community, but to the real world community (aka business and consumer), it makes Netscape (the name most are familiar with) look like a has-been, while Mozilla (the name no one is familiar with) is not known by anyone.
3) Since this is "open-source" software, that means that there will be no promotion on the product whatsoever, meaning Microsoft will still have the competitive edge by far.
Argue what you want, but the fact of the matter is that the team has taken way too much time striving for perfection. Even though this is open-source, its superiority alone will not take the web (heck, if the superior product always won, we would have never used 3.5" floppy disk drives and Rambus would never have survived this long). Time is an enemy, no matter what kind of software it is. This product needs to get out there now. It needed to get out there two years before now.
Not steal. It's "use without authors' permission." Has anything important ever been stolen from you? There's a huge difference between unauthorized copying and stealing.
Not only are you being inaccurate, you're insulting people who have had something stolen from them.
"People only use Mozilla to spite MS..."
No, I use Mozilla because IE hasn't been ported to Linux, and even if it was I wouldn't trust it. I would, however, keep it around for looking at pages that wouldn't work in Netscape/Mozilla.
I don't use IE, not to spite MS, but because I don't have Windows. If I had a bigger hard drive, I'd be happy to install an old used copy of Windows and IE. I wouldn't get anything new because I refuse to support the MS monopoly. That part may be for spite, but using Mozilla isn't.
"Netscape 6 and Mozilla are better, but there no where *near* as fast as IE 5.5 or IE 6b. This is not MS bias, this is just the truth."
From what I have seen, I agree with you. Another advantage of IE is that it loads more of the pages on the web than Netscape does because Frontpage is deliberately broken.
On the other hand, Windows 3.1, NT, and 9x are nowhere near as fast or stable as Linux. I can't speak for 2K or ME because I haven't seen those, but I have seen 3.1, NT, and 9x, and imho they are completely nuts. I've used Linux heavily and exclusively for one or two years and during this time my system has crashed *once* and that was because I didn't give it enough virtual memory. I am very happy with what I have.
Sadly, MS has not seen fit to port IE to Linux. If they do, I'll consider installing it. With the permissions of a two year old, of course.
A friend of mine who writes webpages would be the one to talk to about this, but she's not here. This is what I gather from her:
Netscape is not very tolerant of bad code. IE is more tolerant of certain types of errors. Frontpage will introduce those errors and make Netscape load only a blank screen. Load a page made by Frontpage, look at "View Source" and the html comes up, but nothing is rendered on the screen. The idea is to give Netscape a bad reputation. As Frontpage use becomes more common, Netscape works on fewer and fewer sites.
I'm no expert on this, but she is. I've personally seen two pages that were made with Frontpage, and neither of them loaded with Netscape 4.x, but did with IE. I didn't have Mozilla at the time, so I couldn't try that. I wish I remembered where those two sites were. I remember that one was written by a tesla coiler who lived in my town and the other was a *professional* newspaper website, if you can believe that!
This problem is apparantly well-known in web authoring circles. I don't know. She's very good at what she does but I'm afraid I can't quite keep up with her sometimes.
There's no difference in the software world. It's still stealing, no matter how you may try to rationalize or justify it. The bottom line is that you're doing what you're saying your doing, "using something without the authors' permission" which in plain and simple words is stealing.
I just copied your entire post. You didn't give me permission to. Did I violate your copyright? If I did, how much would be okay? If I didn't, how long would your post have to be before I was wrong to copy it?
You've equated authorship with ownership. They are not the same thing. Stealing is when you take something away from someone. The kind of copyright violation I believe we are talking about is copying, not stealing. The only thing the owner of the original copy of the information has lost is exclusivity. Exclusivity does not exist, just like shadows do not exist - both are defined as the absence of something else. If I shine a light, I am not stealing shadows, I am spreading light and driving away darkness. If I copy and distribute a copyrighted work, I am not stealing exclusivity from the author or publisher, I am spreading the art and driving away the artificial scarcity of that art.
Please don't misunderstand me. Copies of information can be owned. I own copies of Windows and of Startide Rising. I do not own the words in the book or the bytes on the CD, but I own the book and the CD. If you took my book away from me, you would be stealing. If you go to the library and read Startide Rising, you have not stolen anything from David Brin or anybody else. If you listen to music on the radio and change the station every time commercials come on, you're still not stealing.
Taking something that belongs to someone else is stealing. Using something without the author's permission? Why would I need the author's permission? I've copied articles out of magazines.(for education, for research) Is that stealing? If it is, it's stealing no matter what I use it for. If it isn't, then I should be allowed to do whatever I want with it, as long as I am not hurting anybody else.
BTW, potential profits also cannot be stolen because they don't belong to the profiter yet. Potential profits are a guess of future success in business, not of some inherent right. The RIAA lost a lot of potential profits to me when I found out what they had done. Am I stealing from them because I am boycotting them?
No, I own both a copy of Windows and a "license" to use it. Do you see Microsoft giving out free copies of Windows to people who already bought licenses? M$ demands money for both.
I used Mozilla 0.9 for about 20 seconds in Windows XP Beta 1. Then...*CRASH* It prompted me about setting it for the default browser or something, and none of the buttons worked. A few seconds later, it just stopped responding. Had to kill the process. Nice going, Mozilla team. Is this some sort of record?
I didn't have to build myself. I came fully assembled.
Do you see the sig? Do you have it in your sights? Why yes, Miss Moneypenny...
Hey does anyone else have the problem with Konqueror where some of the fonts are really small? I love Konqueror but because it draws its fonts really oddly, I seldom use it. Anyone found a way to fix this?
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
You had to before?!
If a corporation is a personhood, is owning stock slavery?
Steal, v. - to take another person's property without right or permission.
Now, since one takes a copy of the original and the author of the original owns the copy, hasn't one just stolen something? Here's a good hint: the answer is three letters long and begins with the letters Y-e-s.
If a corporation is a personhood, is owning stock slavery?
i must say that mozilla 0.9 is by far, the best in rendering pages and speed (more so than ie 5 and ns 4.76).
For comparison, here's a screen shot of the new modern theme being displayed inside the old one. ;)
screenshot
One guy told me it "looks like winxp", but I think it's more a smooth MacOS X
--------
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
> grep -r -i shit /usr/src/linux
./fs/isofs/inode.c: * Some dipshit decided to store some other bit of information
./drivers/net/sunhme.c: /* Remember: "Different name, same old buggy as shit hardware." */
./drivers/scsi/esp.c: /* shit */
./drivers/scsi/esp.h: /* The HME is the biggest piece of shit I have ever seen. */
./drivers/scsi/qlogicpti.c: if (qpti->clock == 0) /* bullshit */
./arch/sparc/mm/srmmu.c: * else we eat shit later big time.
./arch/sparc64/kernel/traps.c: printk("SHIT[%s:%d]: "
./arch/mips/kernel/sysirix.c:/* 2,526 lines of complete and utter shit coming up... */
./arch/i386/kernel/setup.c: * What lunatic came up with this shit?
And my personal favorites:
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
A long time I.E user..since netscape...well.. The new Mozilla is ...like I said sweet..fast..great look and feel.. Looks like it has some great potential..
nuff said...
Hmm... I'm running 0.8.1 and it seems to delete things from all my subfolders just fine. Perhaps somthing flakey with your IMAP server?
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
Is there an actual Book of Mozilla? If so, anyone know where I could get one?
kickin' science like no one else can,
my dick is twice as long as my attention span.
Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
That could very well be the case. But i'm sure with the threat of an actual 1.0 release on the horizon, the mozilla team will be able to find a few new features to add, and push back the release date another year or two...
Drag n' Drop DVD Recommendations
The User-Agent header is often faked. I just visited your site with Mozilla/69:
[liam@SexyVAIO liam]$ telnet www.swift-networks.com 80
...
Trying 216.83.167.139...
Connected to www.swift-networks.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
GET / HTTP/1.0
Host: www.swift-networks.com
User-Agent: Mozilla/69
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Server: Microsoft-IIS/4.0
Content-Location: http://www.swift-networks.com/index.html
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 02:16:42 GMT
Content-Type: text/html
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Last-Modified: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:50:00 GMT
ETag: "04c50ee17b9c01:ce52"
Content-Length: 8745
<html>
I'm hoping my perpetual lack stable mozilla, across multiple machines, OSs, and stable / nighly / beta builds, is some bizzarre coincidence. I'd like to find out. Could you do the following:
1. Click a menu item. Eg, 'Tasks'
2. Hit the left arrow ten times
Does the web browser fail to provide any response whatsoever for you too?
Hmm. Click 'Tasks'. Menu drops down. Press left 10 times. Menus drop down for each item on the left, cycling round and finishing at Tasks menu again. Click on 'Tools->History'. History page pops up.
If I was in bugzilla, this one would be labelled 'WORKSFORME'.
Current build 2001050521 on Linux - that was one of the last 0.9 branch before the release.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
Use Opera
It's got a 2MB footprint (12MB with java plugin, uses 1/10 the RAM and is 10 times as fast. It's also compatible with any Netscape plugin, in fact you don't even need to reinstall them. Just point Opera at your Netscape plugin directory.
You are supposed to pay for it, but it's pretty damn easy to find serialz on Google.
Opera works on Linux too.
No, it won't fix the problem with mozilla in Debian. Mozilla (>M18) is being held up from official release in Debian because of policy issues mainly regarding encryption modules and U.S. law, not because of the program itself. Debian developers are currently discussing the meaning of current U.S. law and its implications for encryption software in the future (discussing whether the non-US section of Debian should be brought into main), but a final decision has not yet been released.
Unofficial debs of 0.8 have been available for some time (sorry, I don't have the links at hand) and I presume 0.9 will be packaged up in short time.
Im afraidim going to have to ask you to come with me.
WHy if you changed that to
while(1){ malloc(100); sleep(1);}
You have the sekrit sauce that makes IE so great
I remember just yesterday when Mozilla was at it's silly build numbers 18 or 19 or something or other...
Almost there!
Peace,
Amit
ICQ 77863057
[o]_O
This is not your grandaddy's Mozilla, folks. It is leaner and meaner. Crashes are much more rare. Hanging infrequent. In short, it works. In the past, everytime a new snapshot would come out, we would all rejoice because we just -knew- this was the release we could begin using on a fulltime basis. Unfortunately, three days later we all switched back to Nutscrape 4.75, lynx, links, or lately, for some, Konqueror. But this release is different. It starts faster, renders faster and dies slower. Use it and abuse it, and remember to post bugs to bugzilla. 1.0 is not far away:)
signature smigmature
- James
What can it do that Konqueror can not?
/can/ do many things, it doesn't have to.
It can *not* look like Internet Explorer.
Netscape was slow and ugly.
I'll admit Netscape was...broken...But I wouldn't say it was slow or ugly.
Last time I checked it, they included a lot of bloated features, rather than fixes to the core of the thing.
You've been misinformed. While it's true that Mozilla
signature smigmature
- James
~~~
Sigmenation fault.
I have been using mozilla for almost a year and a half now. (It renders much like IE, so debugging web pages is easy using Moz + Netscape) This release is far and away the best release I have seen. I was very impressed at the speed improvements made to the browser and the JVM as well. I haven't used Konq yet ( I'll try it now that my DSL is back up) but this mozilla is surely going to replace Netscape for me. (That is if the frames navigation bug has been fixed).
It's that good.
_underSCORE
"This is not a company that appears to be bothered by ethical boundaries."
Attorney General Mike Hatch on Microsoft
The ideal solution would be to convince Citibank to change their scripts. An alternate "solution" would be to somehow put an idiot-proof spoofing function into the program. (Special_128_bit_mode, which changes the user agent string to something that's not 100% dishonest, but munged enough to get by most browser detection scripts... The user only activates this "mode" in case of problems with secure sites.)
and I still can't login to slashdot, the same bug (already reported). also seems like the new rendering engine is slow.
Either that or it will mean that you should call "911".
Well... Because there's quite a bit of commenting about speed improvments to the Messanger engine as well as the browser? Perhaps that's why? I'm just talking about what I see, not pushing an agenda.
Quite a few persons especially on Linux use other solutions than the built-in mail features of browser, and I don't think that it's entirely rare to use delicated mail clients on Windows either... In this respect the mail features are a bit off the mark, although I don't object to their existence; I know that "all in one" - ideology is preferred by many people. I just want to mention that it's not shared by everyone.
Everyone who makes generalizations should be shot.
I downloaded the .9 release to see if they had made any progress with this release. It uses 32 megs, is slow to load, and renders slowly. On my box if I go to www.time.gov and view the Java based clock and then try to go anywhere else it hangs. Someone needs to shoot this piece of sh*t and bury it.
Yes, it still has plenty of room to improve; there are quite a few things that annoy me, like the occasional problems with images (seems to be connected to the landing of libpr0n) that previously worked nicely but are now every now and then broken.
But then again, download some milestone that was released a year ago, try it and say then that there hasn't been any significant improvements in stability, features and speed. My point is that while it certainly *still* has room for improvements in each of those areas, it has made quite a bit of progress in the last year. If the same goes on, it could be OK even for the more demanding persons sooner or later. (Probably later ;)
Everyone who makes generalizations should be shot.
"It's quite fast on a 450 PII with 128MB of ram"
So is IE..So is opera, so is Lynx..what is your point?
Galeon is really just a skin. It doesn't cut down on the memory usages, CPU usage, increase stability, or anything else. While many will say it does help a little... Opera uses 1/10th the memory of Mozilla... I know Galeon doesn't come close to putting Mozilla in the running.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
My intention is certainly not flaimbait, but people like to flame so there's not much that can be done about it...
Why can't Mozilla be more like Opera? Only open source rather than commercial. I don't want a bloated, slow, unstable browser. What I want it basically Opera with a better configuration interface (and better bookmark system which netscape has). Why not cut down the code to the bare essentials and get it right?
I don't want to sound insulting to the developers but after working with the code on several different platforms I can safely say it is nasty stuff. I personally think that it was Netscape's influence that made bad code okay, and rushed integration of bloated, untested code.
While my approach may seem shocking, I think the only way to make mozilla into a decent browser is to start with the base code and get a sourceforge product going. That way it would be the community's desires that would drive the project, not Netscape's.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I think W3C has commented that Mozilla is one of the browsers that best support CSS2
I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame it on you.
I'm currently using 0.8 and it only deletes messages in the main inbox. It's infuriating! I can't tell if they've fixed this or not, but I'll upgrade anyway. Having mail/browser integration is a nice thing, but I can't use a mail reader that won't let me delete the vast majority of my mail that I am uninterested in.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
Konqueror is really great, except for a few annoying Javascript bugs that seem to break sites that employ JS for navigation... including a webmail site I use. Other than that, I haven't needed any other browser for some time now.
Someday this may very well be the best browser in the world. I write this in konqueror, and hope Moz 0.9 uses half the RAM and is twice as fast and convinces me to switch back.
SomeWHERE ooooooover the rainbow...
Rate me on picture-rate.com (the link actualy points to me now)
95.23%
The last version of Mozilla I used was .6, I think... Before they even really had an "Installer" of any sort.
On my machine, the speed of mozilla starting up and running is just as good as IE, and advanced things like DHTML and Javascript pretty much work!!! (On all the thing's I've tried so far)
If improvements like this keep coming with Mozilla, I may be switching! One thing I'd like to have with Mozilla is IE style handling of plugins (unmanned, auto).
Most online banking requires https support for java. This is not included in the standard java distributions for free browsers.
You need JSSE classes which you can download from here, information about getting them to with konqueror is here although personally I found you just need to pub the classes in your javahome/lib/ext/ directory and all works fine.
Your first link is almost a year old, the second link is about NS 4.x, not Mozilla.
Are you on the M$ payroll or something?
Ever seen the photo of her in the "superhero" type costume that is so tight it looks painted on? Yummy!
There are two major products that come out of Berkel
Yeah, no shit... What about my poor old P-150 laptop with only 32 Megs of ram? For Christ's sake, the minimum requirements are a P-233 and 64 Megs of ram. Believe me, I love my Open Source software as much as the next guy here. One of the things that we're supposed to be able to do with Linux and other OSS is extend the life of our legacy hardware. When I tried Win98 on that laptop for a while, IE5 loaded fast enough to be comfortably usable. But under linux, the only window mangers that come close to the speed/usability of Win98 are IceWM and Blackbox. I compiled KDE 2.1 and Gnome from source. With Sawmill(fish?) Gnome was only slightly faster than KDE, and with enlightment Gnome was measurably slower. Konqueror did a great job of rendering... if you had 30 - 40 seconds for it to initially open. After it opened, everything was peachy, but the delay... very frustrating. I don't even DARE to try Mozilla on it.
;)
Just about 4 years ago a machine with the specs of my laptop would have been kick-ass. Why is it that everything just gets bigger and slower, when developers could theoretically sharpen and optimize to run on minimal hardware? Don't give me shit about "Why don't you just buy a faster laptop?" either. I'm a cheap bastard. Just ask my wife. And besides.. that goes against my earlier point about "extending the life of your existing systems with Linux." That used to be a big pitching point, but it's beginning to lose merit. Just something to consider.
BTW, I've also got an Athlon 800 w/ 256 MB and a dual Celery 400 w/ 384 MB, so it's not like I don't have a better system. I just can't use them on the couch while watching cartoons.
There are two major products that come out of Berkel
A Friend of mine frequented the Mozilla.org newsgroups and IRC channels since was embedding JavaScript into his RPG engine.
One day he mentioned a new image library they were working on, and I swore to god he told me it was called lib pr0n, now he might have been joking (though he isn't really the type), and it might have just been an internal name. But it was funny as hell.
And really, I'm not making this up.
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"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
I had this problem to in ie on windows 9x. Using kuro5hin is really bad, since everyone gets to moderate. But the problem is non-existent in 2k/NT (Gives you a pretty good idea of what OS M$ uses for testing/development, eh)
It's not that bad of a solution, either, since those OSs are so easy to pirate. Even in the US a lot of people don't bother to pay : )
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"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
What the hell? I'm not even Korean! (I'm Chinese). I know Americans sometimes have trouble telling Asian people apart, but goddamn.
Rate me on picture-rate.com
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
And I doubt RMS would either, if we didn't have opressive copyright laws on the book. the GPL, or copyleft is an attempt to twist the law into something good. If the bad laws were not there to begin with, there wouldn't even be a need.
Rate me on picture-rate.com
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
Very well, I'm glad to see that we now have three excellent libre software browsers (Konqueror, Galeon, Mozilla), and that they are improving very quickly, but... for the moment I'm still forced to use Netscape 4.* to do online banking (I think it's 128-bit encryption, I'm at Citibank). Even with PSM, even with https support activated... don't ask me why, I'm not an expert at crypto, all I know is that the problem is here.
So, can anyone tell me is this changes with Mozilla 0.9? If not, does anyone have an idea of when we will have a solution for this?
Not for myself really...just a nifty little browser called K-Meleon, a lightweight browser that uses the M18 basecode for Windows. They're currently up to version .3, so it tends to eat up visual memory (has it's own graphical widgets (scroll bars, ect)), and has some trouble copying and pasting. You can now set your own home page (defualted to the Kmeleon website in previous versions), and change "skins" (somewhat). It's definatly faster than IE on a dialup modem, not to mention light-weight (2.9 or 3.0 megs), and is completely independent of IE (to the best of my knowledge...there may be IP stacks shared or somthing.
and yes, there's a "linux port", Gecko, for the uninformed. Actually, Kmeleon was ported from Galeon's Gecko engine, hence the similarity in lizard names. Both are nifty, although I believe Galeon has more features (Kmeleon is about as bare bones as you get before downgrading to Mosaic).
You can download Window's Kmeleon here, and find the main page for Galeon here.
moox. for a new generation.
I use Mutt. It's fast (GUI? Who needs a GUI?) and it's totally immune to E-mail trojans.
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Moz 0.9 is rock solid. The recent nightlies are iffy, but getting there. One thing that's in the nightlies is a much-needed improvement to the "Modern" theme; it's now a much sleeker gray color with cooler looking buttons. :) I have a feeling we'll all be in for a real treat once 1.0 hits the net.
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
I use the Win32 version of Opera, and I am quite impressed with the current 5.11 version. They have finally worked out the kinks in the way it handles popup windows. You can now have the browser windows maximized in the MDI interface, and popups will still appear as small windows without forcing all other windows to become "un-maximized" (an annoyance for a long time with Opera). And they finally have worked out the very annoying "render while you watch" behavior (something I also dislike about IE). It's very quick, and very compatible. Rarely do I run across a web site that won't load properly in Opera.
If you have checked out Opera before but didn't like something or other about it, I recommend trying it out again. You may be pleasantly surprised. No, it's not free, but I found it to be well worth the registration fee.
Ok, this may seem a little basic, but how do you go about getting plugins to work for Mozilla? Is there a link out there that'll describe the process? I'm on a Windows box (unfortunately), and whenever I grab plugin installers (like Flash, Shockwave, QuickTime) they all detect my installs of IE & Netscape 4.7x (don't have Netscape 6 installed). But none notice that I have Mozilla (usually, unzipped from a nightly build), so how can I get Mozilla to handle these plugins? Thx.
-pepermil
Ok, this question isn't really Netscape/Mozilla-specific, but considering some of the discussion going on (particularly, those mentioning the new theme being developed in the latest nightly builds of Mozilla) I thought I would ask. How do developers go about handling branches in code to produce a stable version such as 0.9 while there is still a lot of development work being done with nightly builds & such? It seems like a lot of double work to have to add a patch back to both the release & development branches, but is that the only way it can be done? And considering how long with something the size of Mozilla it must take to actually get the stable branch releasable, a lot has probably changed in the development release--how is this all reconciled? I am always amazed reading about the work involved in such complicated pieces of software like Netscape, Linux, *BSD, GNOME, etc. b/c it just seems like the whole concept of merging of code & having different branches must add so much complication to the whole process of coding. Are there any good sites or books that would explain how this is all handled (I'm guessing knowing more details about such things as CVS would help, so if anyone has some pointers there, it would also be appreciated)? Thx.
-pepermil
He who fights and runs away,
My experience with Konq is quite different, too: I'd say it's comprehensively quicker and more stable than Netscape 4.7x, and Mozilla 0.8 and 0.8.1 are still a bit sluggish on this box. Looking forward to trying 0.9, though.
I concur. Make your you have the latest version of IE. There hasnt been much bloat in the last couple of versions...
--- Can i borrow your Clue-Stick(tm)? I need to go beat a few people with it...
Mozilla is one of those apps... Windows users have Internet Explorer, ditto for Mac users, and X users have KDE and Konqueror. I think that Opera is available on those platforms as well. Mozilla is far from unusable, though it still has a ways to go to really be on par with its competitors, but I think that one day, it will really be a good example of an Open Source accomplishment.
Before all of the pessimist take over this forum as usual, let me get in a positive word. I use Konqueror, Moz Nighlies, ie, K-Meleon, NS4.7 and Galeon on a regular basis (crazy, but true) and Moz is really climbing towards the top of my list. It's got a little ways to go before becoming the fastest, lightest browser on the block, but that really wasn't its point in existing at all. It is supposed to be a cross platform, total network communications sweat, and it does this like no one else can. If you want a fast light JustABrowser browser, use Galeon, K-Meleon or Konqueror, they are all maturing nicely (K-Meleon is about the release 0.4 which is startlingly fast and only 3megs! :) Anyhow, don't beleive the hype, Moz is coming along really quickly these days, i use the nightlies and everyday speed and memory improvments are landing. Don't expect a totally polished browser yet out of .9, but give it an honest chance.
got drum'n'bass?
http://mp3.com/vitriolix
Ahh, another thing I don't miss from my IE days.
Any complicated form would completely hose the entire system, forcing a GUI restart.
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
And allow the browser to be able to take down the GUI and the OS along with it, yay!
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
The last time I used IE was on a 98SE system with 96MB ram. /. article with moderation forms, it would completely skew the page when I scrolled and the whole system would be slow to the point of unusable.
On a large
I was using the latest (at the time) versions of everything.
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
Hate Internet Explorer = 69,900 pages
;-)
Hate IE = 382,200 pages
Total MSIE hate = 452,100 pages
Total MSIE hate / Netscape hate = 2.84x the hate
I think that says it all if we're going by google page counts.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
I was under the impression (from the previous comment) that there was a Mozilla option to do it. I don't use Junkbuster (although I might give it a go...)
Which option is this? I can't see it anywhere in that file...
I was reading this article in .8 when I downloaded and installed .9. There are definately speed improvements. Yes, in windows it does load slower than IE, but DAMN the rendering engine is fast. My advice: If you're using .8 on windows, upgrade baby!
This was 1993.
I had my new $1500 486SX/25 computer that shipped with an amazing 1MB of RAM. (Upgradable to 4MB!)
It came with MS-DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1. It had no modem, soundard, or CD-ROM. There was no such thing as an ISP where I lived.
When I moved, I learned I could get Internet access on my own computer...from my apartment! But I needed a modem. I bought a $100.00 14.4 Modem and I was on top of the world.
Eventually, I got Mosaic running on the system. Imagine. Images, instantly appearing on my computer coming from somewhere else! What is this whole "World-Wide-Web" and Internet thing about?
There's a point to this. Using Mozilla (free) on a Linux machine (free) and being amazed that everything works (for free) reminds me of when I recognized that the WWW was for innovaters trying new things, experimenting and all that.
For me, Mozilla 0.9 on RH 7.1 crashes about 1/10 the time that NS6 does, supporting my belief that the Internet belongs to independent innovaters, not the AOL-Time-Warner-CNN-Microsoft-Amazon.com conglomerate that claims to own it.
Nuff said
------------
--- There is a man in a smiling bag.
Guess what browser was used to post this comment?
--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
I still use a few computers with Windows (including my main home computer). 2 of the 4 computers I own run Linux (including one small server), and my laptop (old) dual-boots.
Konqueror seems nice, but it's (obviously) not available for win32.
I don't particularly like how Internet Explorer renders pages (seems choppy, jerks while rendering tables and images without prespecified sizes), so I only use it under MacOS. Netscape 6 is far too slow and unstable to be used seriously (yes, I know it's based off of Mozilla, but they really messed with it before releasing it).
So what do I do? I end up using Netscape 4.76 on almost all computers, Linux included. It's reasonably fast, mostly stable (except in win2000 is seems), and actually renders nicely (IMO). I've tried recent milestones of Mozilla (not including this one), and it seems to have a fair amount of potential - but still is kinda slow for a browser (probably 'cause it's not built into the OS =). Also, their development seems to be taking a whole lot longer than applications like Konqueror, but perhaps in the end Mozilla will set the standard for high-quality browsers.
I'm off to try out this milestone to see how it runs, and maybe begin to replace my almost-obsolete Netscape 4.76. Good luck to the Mozilla team.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
FYI: I used Linux as my primary operating system for about 8 hours a day for 9 months, using Netscape 4.7x the entire time. Yes, it crashed, but only about once a week.
I still use Netscape under Linux EVERY DAY on two different Linux machines, and it crashes no more or less than IE or Konqueror. Also, Netscape under Linux is the only close-to-fully-featured browser that can run on older pentiums (like my laptop) with any sort of usability. It's not perfect, and it does crash on occasion - but it's still very usuable. I can't speak for other ports of Netscape, only Linux and Windows.
Perhaps my experience on 4 separate Linux boxes is unique, but besides clunky widgets, it's a very viable browser for me.
Yes, even with Konqueror Netscape is still useful? Why? Older computers can't run KDE 2.1 worth a crap (trust me, it's horrible), and many of us prefer the GNOME/GTK environment and would rather not load up the whole host of kde libraries just for konqueror. I would agree that someone running KDE 2.x has no reason to use Netscape, but even my short experience with Konqueror produced more crashes than I normally receive with Netscape.
Perhaps you should consider that having a different experience with a program under an OS is different than having little experience.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
My laptop is a P150 with 48 megs of RAM. I run WindowMaker (not with GNOME, not with KDE). KDE 2.1.1 was so slow it was unusable - thought Konqueror does load faster under KDE than Netscape does (obviously because the libraries and widgets are already loaded, kinda like IE in Windows). GNOME (1.2) runs at a decent pace, but it still seems lagging (when I'm used to the responsiveness of a 700 Mhz computer w/ 196 megs of RAM as my primary). WindowMaker, by contrast, runs very, very quickly and responsively.
I only use a few non-console programs under X on my laptop, so WindowMaker is ideal. Basically XEmacs, Netscape, and the Gimp are the three biggest X applications I run.
Like I've said before - my experiences may be different that the average user. If I was running Linux on my primary desktop (I'm not because of a long list of necessary proprietary programs), I would be running KDE 2 with Konqueror as my primary browser, in all likelihood. But, I look to Linux as a primary development platform (with XEmacs), and my server operating system (I own one Linux server and maintain 4 Cobalts).
I just tried Mozilla 0.9 under Windows on my 700 Mhz machine - it's quickly approaching the point at which I can switch from my standby Netscape 4.76.
From reading the other posts, though, it would appear that my good experience with Netscape in both Linux and Windows is a rare thing to encounter. The only stability problem I've had with Netscape 4.7x is under Windows 2000, but Win9x works great (1 crash per week on average, like I said).
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
Reading the bugzilla report it doesn't seem like anyone is taking this problem that seriously...
Woohoo! I'm downloading it now! Thanks for informing me of these features!
The anti-salmon
but does it slice and dice? I won't get it unless it slices and dices.
The anti-salmon
whoa..those percentages are way wrong. You are forgetting the percentage of goatse.cx posts, the percentage of spork posts and the percentage of DIE BILL GATES DIE!! posts. Just to screw up your percentages even more, I will add a DIE BILL GATES DIE!! post right here for your inconveniance.
DIE BILL GATES DIE!!!
The anti-salmon
I dunno why, but this story reminded me of a question i had for the slashdot community. I was looking through some server logs the other day, and it has logs of different browsers and whatnot that are used to access our site. One of the browsers showed up as "Netscape 8." anyone know what's up with that?
The anti-salmon
Mail and News seems to have major speed improvements as well. I was able to attach to my Outlook PST and import all my e-mail over without it crashing too!
The IRC client looks much better too, still lacking DCC support or a server navigator window. It uses an /attach command to connect to a network, or you can use the standard /server command.
I've been running it for about 2 hours and it hasn't crashed yet. Definitely worth grabbing, IE won't get much use in the Recycle Bin.
-Pat
So what is the deal with Mozilla and Hotmail? I have seen people piss, bitch, and moan that Mozilla cannot find the passport login boxes after a user hits the login button. Has anyone fixed that?
~~ What's stopping you?
Opera is beautiful but it definitely still has problems with /. moderation.
I just tried it, for a couple minutes. It has improved - much, much faster than I remember from last time I tried it. I can't say much about stability with the amount of time I used it (I got some "unknown error" when I tried to open the mail client, but at least it didn't crash...) Problem is, I'm so damned used to Opera's gesture navigation that I couldn't switch if I wanted to. Damn them!!!
Try a build from late April. Mozilla is like wine. Some daily builds are 'vintage' quality, some are good for making vinager.
Best way is to keep an eye on Mozillazine's daily build comments column and grab only vintage builds:
http://www.mozillazine.org/build_comments
I've been using Mozilla's browser for a few months now and it is very fast and stable. I agree it may choke on low RAM systems (128Mb).
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
Actually, Konqueror has turned out to be a huge surprise. It runs fast, displays a majority of pages well, and boots quickly. There are a few times where I have to whip out Netscape (most notably at eBay, which sometimes seems to forget I've logged on), but other than that Konqueror has become my browser of choice on the Linux side. IE 5.0 is unabashedly for my Windows side.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Actually, I remember doing a problem recently in OS class that said twice as much memory only yielded a 25% gain, on average. I don't know if it would work in reverse (25% loss)?
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Konqueror is faster than Netscape on mine.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Actually, it's an OS independent study. And some of us like to hear the "shit" they teach us before we make opinions on the subject.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
I just downloaded, installed, ran, set proxies, logged in as my username to /., and posted this. I saw the story with 15 comments, now I'm post #...
---
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
Or maybe you're thinking of the W3C DOM ECMAScript bindings? Mozilla is actually ahead of Internet Explorer in that respect, with support for DOM Level 1 and some of DOM Level 2. It supports the document.implementation and Node.get/setNodeAttribute() methods, which IE doesn't. In terms of standards, it's pure pleasure working with Mozilla.
Mozilla doesn't support much of proprietary DOMs such as Microsoft's document.all, although it does support innerHTML as a "convenience feature." Personally, I intend to code to W3C spec as it seems it really is being adopted. Mozilla is forcing Microsoft to adhere to the standards.
My first impression is (after I've been using 0.9 for 5 minutes) is that it is in deed faster, but still has a lot of bugs to be fixed (and some new introduced)
For example:
javascript window.status and a:hover still don't seem to go well together...
an other nasty thing that bugs seems to be animated transparent gifs...
well... I'll investigate more tomorrow...
/A
Just installed in on MacOS 8.6. Moz has managed to crash within 5 minutes each time I've opened it (4 times so far). I'm posting this from Moz .9 tho.
I had to set some of the options and now it seems okay (for now at least).
But I really like it! Better interface (still some weird issues, like size of objects, 1 pixel misalignment, etc. I'm also getting odd lines around some images, and other graphical glitches.
I would like the ability to make the back buttons, etc smaller... didn't see a prefs option for that.
But, wow is it fast! Nice work.
Well, you know, i've heard nothing but good things about Konqueror, and am looking forward to trying it one of these days. The only thing holding me back is the fact that there is no java support. Is this still true? I am assuming that I do not have to have KDE installed to use this right? Just the libs?
Regards,
Hoarycripple
--
I'm using linux, and i feel that the performance (with regard to the menus) is comparable to NS 4.7x True, the last release was still "bulky feeling" but I don't think this is the case with the 0.9 release. Anyway, even if you feel that you are not getting "instantaneous" response from the menus, that is not a reason (for me) to keep useing netscape 4.7x. The stability, and the fast rendering make Moz worthwhile.
Regards,
Hoarycripple
--
Hmm. Unlikely at best. But the fact is that this browser is very stable (java has not crashed my browser since a nightly DL'd a week ago) It's quite fast on a 450 PII with 128MB of ram, and the rendering engine rocks my world. Finally, there's no reason to keep using Netscape 4.7x
Regards,
Hoarycripple
--
Hatten är din, hatten är din, Hatt-baby, hatt-baby.
:-)
Hatten är din looks cool but why am I finding it funny?
-M5B
There are 1.1... kinds of people.
try Opera (http://www.opera.org). It works great for me on both Win98 and Slackware 7.0.
eudas
Blessed is he who expects the worst, for he shall not be disappointed.
pardon me then.
"just connect this to..."
BZZT.
Liberty.
ac_add_options --disable-tests ac_add_options --disable-debug ac_add_options --enable-strip-libs ac_add_options --disable-ldap ac_add_options --disable-pedantic #i added these ac_add_options --with-java-supplement ac_add_options --with-jpeg=/usr/local ac_add_options --with-zlib=/usr/local ac_add_options --with-png=/usr/local ac_add_options --enable-optimize= #ac_add_options --without-gtk #ac_add_options --with-qt #ac_add_options --enable-toolkit=qt ac_add_options --disable-cpp-exceptions ac_add_options --disable-cpp-rtti ac_add_options --disable-debug ac_add_options --disable-idltool ac_add_options --disable-jar-packaging ac_add_options --disable-md ac_add_options --disable-pedantic ac_add_options --disable-xterm-updates #ac_add_options ---with-qtdir=/usr/local/qt ac_add_options --enable-mailnews ac_add_options --enable-crypto
"just connect this to..."
BZZT.
Liberty.
...and I thought the grammar nazi was the only one with this problem!
Keeping
the new image rendering library was known as libpr0n to all of the developers.
Keeping
Remember when technology would deliver us from hard work and lead us unto leisure? Today, all it promises is to "increase your productivity". Damn. They might as well advertise "adds 10 inches to your slap stick".
Meanwhile, it's all people seem to want anyway ("WHOOPASS, PRODUCTIVITY IN A CAN!").
Fuck it.
That is the most honest definition of property I've read from someone who supports it. Disturbing to see your still supporting it, though.
Property is taking something and saying, "this is MINE and no one else then I will use it".
Therefore, property is theft. It is steeling everyone else, "excluding" them from their right to use the so-called property.
Call me a stealer as much as you like.
You are the thieves.
And both of your posts insults people who are victims of property (theft), especially (including, but no limited to) those who can't eat because people declared food as their property.
And saying law is reality is plain ignorance. How's that for a definition of Law:
If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.
The better system? You got it, Anarcho-Communism.
...not for performance. I'm sorry if anyone thinks this is a troll, but really.
I'm a web developer and use all the browsers to test sites daily. I can most assuradly say that IE is worlds faster than any version of Netscape--and probably around 5 times as fast as Netscape 4.x *at least*. (I sit there and just *wait* for pages to load instead of having them load on the spot.)
Netscape 6 and Mozilla are better, but there no where *near* as fast as IE 5.5 or IE 6b. This is not MS bias, this is just the truth.
I'm all for people using whatever version of Netscape for anti-MS reasons, but making an issue about performace shouldn't be in the picture. If you really care about rendering speed and usage, you'd use IE 5.5/6b and Outlook Express 5/6.
What's a sig?
It must leave all sorts of pre-cached data lying around when it's active, and tosses it when minimized. Pretty cool.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Hey'! It's 9 megabytes too!
Got friends?
I'm predicting that 0.9.1.1 will be the super fast "Porsche" version of Mozilla.
Got friends?
I just tried out the Linux version on my Glibc 2.2.3/Kernel 2.4.4 system, and the performance still does not hold a candle to Netscape 4.77.
Navigating the menus still feels like a java app with large delays in action.Opening new windows and bringing up preferences is still slow.
Until I get *instantaneous* response like NS 4.77, I will never switch to mozilla.
Mmmmm ;)
0.999999999... equals 1
Er... if you skipped the subject header, what's holding it back speed-wise? Is speed in the area of MS Explorer possible?
I'd assumed certain layers/barriers between the operating system and the browser would need to be eliminated or reduced in order for that to happen, and I also figured that such layers/barriers would only come into play post-1.0...
Just curious.
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
CSS Still doesn't look so hot in Mozilla - although the font weaknesses of X on Linux may be to blame. Things like font-weight don't work right as far as I can tell. Still, the overall speed and feel of 0.9 is very good.
I am a new user of Linux, at least as a desktop/workstation (pentiun II 350 + 384MB RAM). I have mandrake 8.0, so I have pretty much the bleeding edge browsers of linux installed. Konqueror is good but not as good as IE, and I have been getting annoyed with the display and the fonts, etc. I is definitely close to being good enough but not yet. Mozilla 0.81 (also galleon, nautilus, etc) is also installed and unfortunately it is too slow and also buggy, at least people didn't test their webpages on mozilla. It just doesn't feel right for day to day frequent usage. After fighting for a while what to use, I remembered opera. I have been using opera for a long while on windows and I use it 50% of the time and I use IE for the other 50%. Opera has been missing some javascript functionality but 99% of the time it is fine. It has a great gui which is very customizable.
I installed the linux version and I love it. It is consistant with the windows version and it is very fast to start on linux. After starting opera, all of us know how fast it is to render pages.
djbdns is not bad. Neither is qmail. However they are both under a horrific license. And both qmail and djbdns are *NOT* free software. If it was under the GNU GPL it might even be the best. But many dont realize this, and therefore promote it like it's sliced bread. So bind it shall be until something like djbdns under the GPL or a BSD license comes along.
Linux: Because a PC is a terrible thing to waste.
James Brents
And regarding Netscape? (quoted from DJB if you ask me, but regardless) it is sad that people had to use it, but thats because there were NO EQUAL GPL APPLICATIONS. However now that theres browsers like Mozilla (what this article is all about) thats changing.
So get off your soap box, I value freedom more than the security garuntee of 1 man who can write decent applications, but has no sense of freedom. And I've used that word alot, More than I like to, but price is not the issue, Thats not what the GPL is all about. If DJB would put his stuff under the GPL, I might just use it. But whatever you do, regardless, Dont get on the soapbox saying sendmail and bind are bad, and we should take away our current freedoms to use it. Theres a reason sendmail handles an estimated 80% of all email traffic. Its good, Its popular, And its free (as in speech)
Linux: Because a PC is a terrible thing to waste.
James Brents
How do you define stealing? Do I have to physically remove property from your possession? Well, how do you define property? I've got a substantial amount of money in different accounts, none of which corresponds to actual, tangible property. I still own it.
Property is based on the right to exclude. I own a house, and a yard. Why are they mine? Because I decide who cannot stand on it. (Well, more or less - the meter reader guy still has to walk on my grass, but you get the idea.) I also decide who can and cannot build on it. I have exclusive rights. The more exclusive rights I have, the more it is considered my property.
Under this definition of property (which is the same definition used in U.S. law), stealing is defined as an action that removes the rights or ability of someone to exclude. If someone "steals" my money that I have in one of my accounts, I don't actually lose physical possession of it, do I? I just lose the ability to exclude others from using it.
IP law gives authors and inventors exclusive rights (read: "rights to exclude") over their works. If I remove from someone the ability or right to exclude, I have stolen. I have removed their property (or a portion of it) from them.
In short, here's the line of reasoning:
1) Property is defined by the rights of someone to exclude;
2) Intangible things may be property;
3) IP law makes ideas into property by granting exclusive rights over them to the author;
4) "Stealing" is removing the rights or ability to exclude;
5) IP infringement removes some of the rights and/or abilities of the author to exclude;
6) Therefore, IP infringement is stealing.
Morally, you can see it however you wish. Legally, this is reality. You do have to give a definition of the word "stealing" before you can give good reasons not to use it. Your stance insults people who have been victims of IP theft - and that's not just huge corporations.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
Oh, like stylesheets. Or ... stylesheets. In fact, a search for "hate netscape" in Google turns up 159,000 entries. Go read some of them.
I really hope that Mozilla will be a web browser panacea someday. Until then, I'll be sticking with IE... on my Solaris box, even. ;)
Yes Konq is a good browser, but it's rendering engine still has a long way to go. Maybe they should think about using Gecko.
I'm running 0.9 on a celeron 400 right now. Not exactly a speed demon, but still mozilla still works fine. I think I'll make it my default browser.
Crio
I don't Gnow why I ought to stop using Konquerer. How Does Big Mo compare?
- Dan I.
One of my favourite features in Mozilla is the startup sound it comes with of some kind of beast roaring ferociously ...
(otherwise known as my hard drive going berko)
-- No, no gems to be found in this sig.
This may get modded down as offtopic or a troll, but I love the new Opera so much that it's worth it to get the word out.
The new Opera for Linux rocks my socks. 5.0b8 is out, and it's a heck of a lot more stable than Mozilla ever was for me. Mozilla 0.8 was still too buggy, bloated and slow for my poor little Pentium 233 to handle. Opera is quick, looks pretty, renders pages better and faster than Netscape or Mozilla, and it's still free. Yes, you have to pay ~$40 to get rid of the banner ad in the button bar, but since I don't use the buttons, I just move that whole toolbar to the bottom of the pane.
I also like the selective restrictions you can place on things like Java popups, and the fact that you can specify sites from which to allow/deny cookies. Hell, it even saves your state on the rare occasions when it crashes, and when you restart it, it will ask you if you want to open it with the same pages you were viewing when it tanked. Now if they'd only release a Solaris port so that I could use it at work. Either that, or opensource it so someone else (maybe me) can port it.
This is not a Fugazi
What specifically was wrong with Konq's fonts?
Konqueor (KDE 2.1.1)+ AA fonts rocks.
Also foreign encodings e.g Baltic & Cyrillic work great.
As far as I am concerned Konqueor is as good as IE, it's a bit slower, but waaay more stable.
I know this is off topic, but... Some examples of the subj.: X crashed every 15 mins with error 11, GTK menus didn't accept input from mouse's left button, ESD wouldn't work. That of course was my personal experience, but still...
Win9x is flaky, so is 3.1. I however disagree about NT being "unstable", at least with all the latest SPs. I am running NT at work and the system has NEVER crashed on me, but it's a Compaq and it's M$ certified. When however you are starting to mix tons of hardware you are bound to get even the stablest of OS's to crash. And one thing that no OS can be protected against are video-driver crashes. Since the video driver is accessing h/w directly, when it goes down it takes the entire OS with it. So the user is left at the mercy of the driver coders. I've had many lock-ups in Linux, caused by my nVidia drivers, they are stable now, but that wasnt a case even 5 months ago. Also another example: Aureal Vortex soundcards on a par with VIA chipsets are known to cause occasional lockups in Linux.
What can be done to mozilla to reconcile the nonstandard widgets with aqua? No matter how cool it may be, i'm sure many people will refrain from using it, because it looks kinda shitty compared to the rest of aqua. *sigh* I'll stick with Omniweb for now. I must say, it _is_ much faster, and looks kinda sweet when running under gnome...
stop pointing out how you use konquerer.
we know.
we don't care.
shut up.
this is not meant to be a troll, but the truth.
does anyone know if this fixes the problems that has occurred with debian packaging of mozilla?
But I download the source from CVS everynight and build this myself (email me if you would like to get instructions on building it in Linux -- especially if you are having trouble with PSM) and i must say that at least the ones i download and build are amazingly quick. No, I am not saying that they are netscape quick, but apparently since .9 branched there has been one bug (can't remember the #) that was causing a paint problem in rendering and allowed Mozilla , once fixed, to render up to 20% faster. I never measured how much faster it got, but it was noticeable.
:)
.02 -- and one must note: PSM is much better than the last milestone i used (whatever that was. 0.8.1 i think) now i can click my hotmail "select me" buttons and not have to wait a few seconds for the check to come up. maybe that has nothing to do with PSM, but i figured that since hotmail is a "secure" site, and if i didn't get PSM i could not get in, it was because of that. Shows what i know. But even if it isn't PSM, at least that is useable now.
Load time is faster. 3 seconds for me -- and that is acceptable. Stability is a little iffy on some of my own builds, but that is what you do for getting CVS builds. I have not used 0.9 but unless they REALLY receded the code for stabiliy, I can't imagine that this would not be as acceptable as my CVS builds.
I must say that it is no good that one must build from CVS to really get Mozilla going well, but I like the power to get rid of mailnews, debug, and tests. No crud, much love.
Anyway, just my
What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
Anyone know where I can download a version compiled for a k6? The i686 build gives me a lot of seg faults.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
Have you tried Opera lately? A lot more configurable than IE, with all of its best features. It runs beautifully on my steam-powered, p-233, Win98, 64 MB RAM system.
--M.
Now, i find it irresistible to reply on this... I use OmniWeb on my PowerBook. It's a very standards compliant browser, hence same problems as with Opera. However, I can view most pages just fine, and flash, quicktime etc. plugins work 100%. Now you might find it annoying, but Omni is a 100% OpenStep developer, therefore you don't get the chance to run this neat piece of s/w unless you run MacOS X or NeXTstep :-)
of course, when i boot to linux, i prefer mozilla. it's not too slow for my machine, and it's very close to displaying correctly every web page out there.
still running a x86? dinosaurs do exist!
Fabian.
Fabian.
Fabian.
The XSLT engine (Transformiix) will be in mozilla0.9.1. It was almost there for 0.9 but build issues have pushed it to the next milestone. I don't think there are currently any plans to implement the XML Schema though, unless I'm mistaken.
Fabian.
On the other hand some developers are real open source developers, meaning they do it in their spare time. For those (like me), the only and best reward is to watch the software evolve and become better and better.
I'm not sure about the CD's etc, but I would say yes, at first sight.
Fabian.
I see. . .and would this be the same day that everyone starts running Linux?
Sorry...."GNU/Linux"
I've been using Konqueror ever since it came out. Why? because Netscape was slow and ugly. Konqueror is much faster, and feels like Internet explorer. Mozilla isn't any better. Last time I checked it, they included a lot of bloated features, rather than fixes to the core of the thing. I wasn't happy. So why are so many people interested in Mozilla and not Konqueror? What can it do that Konqueror can not?
I mostly use Opera, since it runs on most operating systems, and really has a small footprit, so even in my imac with 32 Megs of memory it runs great, just not all good rendering in the ppc linux port. I am right now compiling mozilla for the ppc linux. so sad that it doesent come precompiled for this platform. right now its in the second hour fo compiling, nearing third
There isn't much like the scent of a fresh harddisk
wich of them :)?:)
There isn't much like the scent of a fresh harddisk
...Besides Netscape/Mozilla?
I should switch. I'm running explorer pretty much by default, and it won't even let me moderate! All my dropdown boxes blur together, the windows begin to freeze, and the little girl's head begins to spin. (this also happens when I get too many form elements in *total* windows. Sigh.)
I remember myself using Netscape 4,x. At that time, IE 3,x was out. I also remember thinking that I would never change to IE. However, IE started coming as part of the OS, and I think that on my 150th reinstall of Windows 98, and the lack of energy to re-download Netscape with my modem made me (without me even realizing) switch to IE. :(
As it happened without me noticeing, I never really reflected over the fact that I was now an IE user. However, a few weeks ago I was talking to an old friend over IM. I asked if he had updated his IE. He's responce was:
"I remember that you told me never to use IE a few years back, so I am still using Netscape 4,x".
After I finished laughing, I realized that somehow I became an IE user. I guess this is what happens if you get stuck with Msoft OS'es
The fact that I am now using IE does not mean I want to use IE. It just means that currently, IE is working better then any other browser I know. The question is, will someone ever again produce a browser that will have a bigger marketshare than IE? I think not! This is kind of sad, but it does prove something. If ever Msoft enters a new area, and if they are not stopped quickly, they will get the whole market in that area.
It was a necessary evil until Konqui became usable. Now there's no reason to go back.
"It must be something truly enormous, Trismegistus"
I like it.
Slower than both IE and Konquerer, but is a major step in the right direction for speed.
A few more releases like this and there will be more converts
It's no wonder that any other browser has a hard time catching up with the current W3C standards. The needs of web users would be better served with a much simpler set of standards. And previous multimedia and hypertext systems have shown that much simpler systems are possible.
and maybe on this thread, I haven't read all the comments.
I'm skeptical that there will ever be a "catch-all" browser. Different ones for different needs.
My IP is 192.168.1.100 Hack it if you want.
There is a free version of opera. The only difference is a small ad in the upper right corner. Since the ad goes in a space that would otherwise be wasted, most people don't seem to mind it. And there is also a Linux version, but currently its the 5.03 build, not 5.11.
You forgot to include all the people who are going to go off on the glories of their desktop manager browser. We've already seen several konqueror posts. I predict that some of the threads will quickly devolve into shouting matches on the old KDE vs. Gnome battle. That said, it's time to follow up on my prediction- I'm sticking with konqueror for now.
I'm an Angry Clam. You would be angry too if you were a ball of snot in a shell.
You still can't delete bookmarks, but with big improvements like reducing the amount of RAM used and making the loadup faster it's getting there.
You people are nuts. I'm all for rallying behind good software but at the same time we can lay blame to bad software. If you want a Browser under Linux you should try Opera or Konqueror. These have both been developed in much less time, have a much smaller footprint, render faster.
Are you sure we are talking about the same browser ?
IE works almost flawlessly and certainly better than any version of Netscape (old or new)
The only way liberals win national elections is by pretending they're not liberals.
It is really fast on Windows 2000.
It crashed on my while I was trying to change my default fonts but still, this thing with Mozilla is definately going somewhere
The only way liberals win national elections is by pretending they're not liberals.
The 0.9 branch is known as the performance branch (though more performance stuff is still being checked in) and to that end a lot of stuff has been rewritten for speed: For example, Mail/News now uses Outliner which has at least doubled the speed which I use to have using Mozilla Mail/News. Then there's PSM 2.0 which was totally rewritten from the ground up so that SSL pages are now blazzingly fast. ImageLib (LibPr0n) also was completely rewritten so that it renders images 2x as fast as it did before. This is not to say that this is the end of the performance fixes. In addition to the ones mentioned above, the latest nightlies have a very big speed increase loading pages (which was checked in right after 0.9 branched). In addition were working on getting the startup time down, with among other things the ability on (Winblows computers) to load Mozilla at Startup just as you would IE. bug 76004, (I know some people won't like this idea but some will, and you will have a choice) If you want to help out you can join the channel #mozillazine on irc.mozilla.org. We need Linux coders to help optimize the speed on Linux so that its just as fast as on Windows, were getting there but were still a bit behind. A while ago I stopped b*tching about Mozilla and its slowness and decided to get involved and I have found you can make a lot of difference if you do. Even if you can't devote lots of time to it, even filing bugs, helping sort and duplicate bugs or creating testcases for those bugs is sorely needed. If you have any questions feel free to email me or check out Mozillazine.
From a featurepoint level, the Mozilla DOM is excellent. However, recently I tried to use it (with Moz .8), and I ran into all sorts of problems.
There's a number of basic incompatiblities I ran into with Netscape 3-style form objects. (These aren't W3C, but they are essentially de facto standards based on Netscape's excellent documentation. 98% of existing scripts would die without them).
Then, I tried some of the DOM methods. Apparently trying to change certain runtime attributes of tables causes big nasty crashes. This is pure W3C code, BTW.
Anyway, the whole experience was "looks good, isn't good yet". (And yes, Bugzilla knows about all of the issues.) Looking forward to 1.0.
Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
...I still need to have a copy of Netscape 4.7? around -- seems some sites I find useful (http://www.bankofamerica.com/) block Netscape 6.01 and Mozilla browsers out :-(
I've actually seen sites out there that have a No Netscape 6 Image on their Welcome page and don't allow you to log in with it.
For a long time -- sites like hotmail didn't allow mozilla in at all (they do now though).
I guess what I'm trying to say is as good as the browser may now be -- the fact that it was released a tad bit too early last year has done some damage -- most of my non-geek friends don't have a very positive view of Netscape 6/Mozilla. It seems neither do some people who run websites.
Even some of my so called geek friends tryied it once when the preview release came out and were so disgusted by it they never went back to it again. Personally, I don't blame them. I think Netscape made a huge mistake by releasing the preview release way too early and now that the browser is stable, fast, and good looking there is a whole group of people that have a general distrust about it.
At least that's the impression that I get.