All OS distributors be damned for enabling services by default. If I hear one more %^#$^ story about how somebody's box got r00ted because foobard was running and they didn't know it I'm going to boot all my boxen to ROM basic and make my nic's into wind chimes!
A new user by default, is not ready to accept the responsibility of running services. Hence, by default, do not start the fucking services. Just because someone you offer Joe Newbie the pleasure of INSTALLING a web server does not mean you should turn it on. Complete idiots will still turn everything on themselves but this will save many people with a moderate clue!
It's the job of the Microsoft folk to prove the Linux folks wrong here. They'll try, and it'll all get worked out in the end. (I'm of course hoping this benchmark is legit) It's nice to see ANOTHER competing benchmark to reference as MS folks constantly draw up the mindcraft tests like they are FACT! (It's all most have read)
There are so many problems with it right now..installing programs, removing them, x windows interface complexity, simple text editors..the list goes on.
Ok, what the hell... RPM, Gnome (w/ Helix update), KDE, Nedit... are your little problems solved now? If you want to use vi and emacs, compile from tarballs yourself, and write your own modelines in XF86Config, sure Linux is a bitch for the unwashed!
http://www.stopnapster.com/artists.html Sean "Puffy" Combs says Napster is blatant "abuse." Well, then I'll stop using Napster right away. But next time someone pisses me off in a bar I'm springing my Glock, cause you know, thats ok.
I'm sorry, but your comment about SQL kinda struck a nerve... well, here goes....
Microsoft SQL Server seems to do very very well in benchmarks. It is highly optimized for the NT/W2K operating system and likewise NT/W2K are optimized for SQL server. Microsoft has spent its resources optimizing this databsae for Windows and building a friendly UI.
The problem with this product is that SQL Server lacks a great deal of functionality found in other databases. As of 6.5 (The previous version that a great portion of the population is still forced to use, a.k.a anybody with a bloated IS department), columns were limited to 1962 characters wide. Do you need to store 10 varchar(255) columns in a single table... with SQL 6.5 you can't! Do you need a varchar longer than 255 characters... with 6.5, you don't get one. I shudder to think at some of the "kludgeviews" that I've created to remedy such situations. Thankfully, they finally fixed these shortcomings with v7.
SQL Server lacks support for functions. It can't substring search CLOBs. Its sorely lacking in just about every other area of its featureset too. When you need a feature that isn't in a database, you the programmer have to go and make something up to fill the need with the tools available. Given SQL Server's limited toolset, quite often you wind up writing expensive cursors, triggers, and nasty subqueries to make up for the database's deficiencies. Such kludges suck up all SQL server's performance gain and more!
I remember trying to come up with a way to efficiently display hierarcheal information stored in a "hierarcheal table" (it had a foreign key to its own primary key) with SQL Server, and failing miserably....we couldn't find anything that would do it with at all reasonable performance. For comparison, Oracle 8i, offers the simple (and extremely fast for what it does) CONNECT BY clause that solves such things in one query.
6.5 was all too much fun before Service Pack 4 came out. I just love tearing apart my own code in search of mistakes and then finding out that the tools I'm using are failing ridiculously. 6.5 even has an unfixed bug where it (rarely, but enough) forgets the last identity primary key (sequence) value issued and can't insert any more rows into a table because it violates its primary key constraint every time it tries. Worse, I've got a server setup right now where the test server has one fourth the RAM as the live server, yet performs queries ten times faster on the same data... and no one can figure out whats wrong!
I know 7.0 and 2000 are better and faster, and possibly more reliable. But having been tainted by 6.5 so badly, and having seen some of the amazing capabilities of Oracle 8i, I'm trying as hard as possible to avoid every using this "database" they call SQL Server again.
I read/. often, and when anyone mentions SQL Server, I'll be there:)
Because, they certainly couldn't before. I live in the Chicago area and around here weather.com sucks. During our biggest snowstorm this year they didn't predict it until a few hours before, while the National Weather Service had it two days in advance. Its typical too... their weather is so inaccurate I rarely go there.
Some moron is trying to sell a Williamette (Intel's next-generation Pentium) on Ebay. These things aren't available to the public yet. He even took the opportunity to illegally benchmark it. Little does he know that his story has been circulating faster than the ILOVEYOU virus thru Intel and pretty much everyone over there is familiar with it. He's screwed.
This afternoon (minutes before this was posted), I finally decided I wanted to plug my computer into the stereo. And after reading this story and associated posts, I drove straight to Best Buy.
I've got an Sound Blaster 32PNP sound card, Sony STR-DE835 Receiver (second from Sony's top of the line for consumer-grade receivers), and some big-ass JBL 3-way speakers with 12" woofers. I just bought $18 worth of Recoton (read: CRAP) RCA cable and a "stereo mini" adapter to plug RCA into my sound card. (note, please don't think I'm hyping up the stereo... I'm sure ALL of you have much better stereos than I do)
Anyway, This thing sounds bitchin! I love it, and its the best $18 I've spent on a nerd-toy in a while.
I dropped a real store-bought RIAA-endorsed Enya CD in my CD player (a real stereo component). I started up XMMS with a 128kbps joint-stereo "Book of Days" track. Pressed play on both at the same time and then switched the stereo's input back and forth between the MP3 player on the computer and the real CD player.
There IS a difference between the CD and the MP3. My humble and non audiophile opinion is that the difference is caused by the MP3 compression, as I could not hear ANY noise from the computer, even with the stereo relatively cranked. (no hisses, UM-UM-UM-UMs, etc)
I cannot imagine how this Dell thing would do a better job, except that it ceratinly would be nice to have a remote control and not have to fish tape another RCA cable under the carpet and across the room:).
On a side note, when I set this thing up I initially made the BIG mistake of plugging it into the "Phono" RCA input on the stereo... have no idea why it sounded so horrible. Then I moved it to the "CD" input and now it sounds great.
I'm going to swing by Best Buy on the way home and pick up such a cable, and am just wondering how much sound degredation/interference is to be expected off a cheap SoundBlaster32 pnp sound card? My stereo wasn't cheap and drives some rather large (3-way, 12-inch woofer) speakers. Will I at least get FM-quality sound trying to play MP3s thru this thing, or am I going to hear the pitch change every time the hard drive is accessed? (My apologies for using Slashdot for tech support...AGAIN)
I (and about a 25,000 other Java developers) was given a free StarOffice 5.2 at JavaOne (on June 6). As near as I can tell its a full release version. Works great, even installed over NFS. I'm liking it a heck of a lot better than the hideously ugly WordPerfect 8.
If someone runs gnapster on a locked-down *nix box with identd and everything else turned off, with a made up napster user name on a dynamic ip connection + email address at hotmail, how in the hell are they every going to get found?
Yes, you can eventually figure out who was using the IP at what time and find who owns the dial up account. Still, on a multi-user system, how do you know who it was?
There is no Java 2.0. Sun made this confusing for everyone. There is such a thing as the "Java2 platform".
Java2 Standard Edition is (I believe) pretty much just the 1.2 JDK (Java Development Kit) and the core libraries.
Then there's Java2 Enterprise edition, which again contains JDK 1.2, as well as EJB 1.1, JavaMail, Servlets 2.2/JSP 1.1, and more.
Adding to the version fracus is that the "Java2" platform has version numbers. I have absolutely no idea how Sun is going to make a big media hit when they release (in the unforseeable distant future), JDK 2.0.
"Personal Java", which I am completely unfamiliar with, also appears to be on v1.2: http://www.javasoft.com/products/personaljava/inde x.html
Oh well, anything is better than calling it "Java 2000"
The only reason I ever have to reboot my machine is when Q3F takes a crap. I've got a 3dfx Voodoo3 and when a game crashes it COMPLETELY HOSES all video. The only way to get it back is to Ctrl+Alt+Backspace from X and blindly running/sbin/reboot. I've played with the *textmode commands and try as they might they are unable to recover the display... they do make it better, but I wouldn't say its anywhere near usable.
Other than the display being foobared, the sytem is fine. I just wanna know if this is normal behavior under Linux, and if its fixed in XFree4, or with other card/driver combos.
It would seem to me that determining the Web site that is producing a document is of paramount importance to a Web browser. Why is it that whatever MSIE component that determines the Web site that data is being received from hasn't been thoroughly tested for correctness? This isn't the first time MSIE has had problems here (remember the dotless IP address security zone problem?)
If it is determining the URL in this way, wouldn't this bug also effect IE's security "zones?" Is it also possible link to a document like this:
I'm not trying to say that VB is forever bound to relational databases, nor am I saying that VB will never be able to access databases of other types. I just find it appalling that a language would take print(rset.get("foo")) and allow you to make it into
With Rset Print !foo End With
I have seen this used in real VB code, specifically in the middle-tier of a large (wannabe-)enterprise application, that was deployed as the "backbone" of an intranet in a company with more than 100k employees. It makes me sick to think about all the various kludges that were implemented to make that thing work because VB (and MTS) simply were not up to the task.
VB has its place, but I think when they started trying to make "enterprise edition" for building middle tiers and so forth, things just kind of got of hand. I'm not a fan of VB, but I have, with (at the time) minimal knowledge of it, used it to create quick GUIs with very little pain, and have been impressed by this capability.
But, like so many other technologies that are "good in their niche", Microsoft is building up VB to handle things that it was never ever intended for. This language has no solid foundation. It has no standard, no specification. MS will throw any feature necessary into this thing to make it EASY at all expense.
This language has five different ways to say "NULL." This language has so many keywords its sickening. THIS LANGUAGE HAS AN OPERATOR TO TALK TO ODBC DATABASES!!! (its the excalamtion point ("!")) Yes, sure it makes it easy, but how long 'til all these features come back to bite you on the ass.
What do we do with the ODBC OPERATOR if/when RDBMS technology goes away in favor of object databases? What we have here is a case of lack of forward thinking. These are the people who brought you 8.3, GUI-in-the-kernel, the (corruptable) binary registry, and WINNT/SYSTEM32! They are thinking only of getting the product out the door with the most features first... at the price of not thinking about the long-term effect. Once you can't stand it anymore they'll tell you everythings going to be alright by coming out with kludges like Windows File Protection (fixes WinNT/system32) and Windows 95's hack for long file names... (everythings really still 8.3!) And you'll buy into it. ENJOY!
The track record for MS products in use by the US military:
- Left a navy ship stranded for several days - Allowed the army's Web site to be repeatedly hacked
The track record for Windows CE
- All previous iterations have been slow - All previous iterations have been unstable - Most new versions of Microsoft products are general buggy and unreliable
YOU SAY: Nothing really prevents a Red Hat engineer from doing something equally stupid.
Ever heard of source RPMS? You can compile a source RPM using Red Hat's exact same settings and you should get a just about byte-for-byte duplicate version.
...is to understand where you are coming from. They want to know where you stand and the way you think so they can properly appease you and your followers. So now they can have all your issues "addressed" with well-thought out answers when the press comes down on them.
Its just like sending Microsoft reasons why you think they are bad on their doj vs. freedom to innovate page.
I'm not trying to be paranoid here, its just that if I were them, I would agree to talk to you (and pay to do so) for this reason.
(P.S. No i haven't read all 39,828 comments to see if this one is redundant or not)
Not trying to start a flamewar, just had a few thoughts on this matter:
- Everyone wanting to run new GUI apps should have Gnome or KDE **LIBRARIES** installed. They've been shipped in most all Linux distros for about a year now. If a user has been using Linux for more than a year, the user is capable of downloading them.
- Cutting edge new office / graphics software demands a reasonable system.
- GTK+, Gnome Libs and QT and KDE libs are not overly large
- All three are being improved upon quite rapidly. In the tradition of free software, version 2.0 is normally not a bloated v1.x, but a more full-featured, streamlined v1.x. Just look at how much faster Gnome 1.2 (1.1) is than Gnome 1.0. They also (IMHO) seem to be the most stable even though they are still in development.
- You do not need to run Gnome to run Gnome Applications. You do not need to run KDE to run KDE apps. Just the libraries.
- Not many new apps are built in Motif. Those that are initially had Commercial *nix versions before being ported to Linux or were ported to Linux before KDE/Gnome were stable. As evidence of this, WordPerfect 2000 is QT/KDE based, ApplixWare 5 and Mozilla use GTK+.
Slashdot Mirror
If I'm not mistaken, drag is proportional to the SQUARE of an object's velocity, not the cube:
D = Cd * r * v^2 / 2 * A D = Drag Cd = Coefficient of drag r = rho (air density) v = velocity A = reference area
All OS distributors be damned for enabling services by default. If I hear one more %^#$^ story about how somebody's box got r00ted because foobard was running and they didn't know it I'm going to boot all my boxen to ROM basic and make my nic's into wind chimes!
A new user by default, is not ready to accept the responsibility of running services. Hence, by default, do not start the fucking services. Just because someone you offer Joe Newbie the pleasure of INSTALLING a web server does not mean you should turn it on. Complete idiots will still turn everything on themselves but this will save many people with a moderate clue!
There are so many problems with it right now..installing programs, removing them, x windows interface complexity, simple text editors..the list goes on.
Ok, what the hell... RPM, Gnome (w/ Helix update), KDE, Nedit... are your little problems solved now? If you want to use vi and emacs, compile from tarballs yourself, and write your own modelines in XF86Config, sure Linux is a bitch for the unwashed!
They're the only place to eat dinner tonight on the fourth of July for those of us slaving away on business objects all day!
http://www.stopnapster.com/artists.html Sean "Puffy" Combs says Napster is blatant "abuse." Well, then I'll stop using Napster right away. But next time someone pisses me off in a bar I'm springing my Glock, cause you know, thats ok.
I'm sorry, but your comment about SQL kinda struck a nerve... well, here goes....
/. often, and when anyone mentions SQL Server, I'll be there :)
Microsoft SQL Server seems to do very very well in benchmarks. It is highly optimized for the NT/W2K operating system and likewise NT/W2K are optimized for SQL server. Microsoft has spent its resources optimizing this databsae for Windows and building a friendly UI.
The problem with this product is that SQL Server lacks a great deal of functionality found in other databases. As of 6.5 (The previous version that a great portion of the population is still forced to use, a.k.a anybody with a bloated IS department), columns were limited to 1962 characters wide. Do you need to store 10 varchar(255) columns in a single table... with SQL 6.5 you can't! Do you need a varchar longer than 255 characters... with 6.5, you don't get one. I shudder to think at some of the "kludgeviews" that I've created to remedy such situations. Thankfully, they finally fixed these shortcomings with v7.
SQL Server lacks support for functions. It can't substring search CLOBs. Its sorely lacking in just about every other area of its featureset too. When you need a feature that isn't in a database, you the programmer have to go and make something up to fill the need with the tools available. Given SQL Server's limited toolset, quite often you wind up writing expensive cursors, triggers, and nasty subqueries to make up for the database's deficiencies. Such kludges suck up all SQL server's performance gain and more!
I remember trying to come up with a way to efficiently display hierarcheal information stored in a "hierarcheal table" (it had a foreign key to its own primary key) with SQL Server, and failing miserably....we couldn't find anything that would do it with at all reasonable performance. For comparison, Oracle 8i, offers the simple (and extremely fast for what it does) CONNECT BY clause that solves such things in one query.
6.5 was all too much fun before Service Pack 4 came out. I just love tearing apart my own code in search of mistakes and then finding out that the tools I'm using are failing ridiculously. 6.5 even has an unfixed bug where it (rarely, but enough) forgets the last identity primary key (sequence) value issued and can't insert any more rows into a table because it violates its primary key constraint every time it tries. Worse, I've got a server setup right now where the test server has one fourth the RAM as the live server, yet performs queries ten times faster on the same data... and no one can figure out whats wrong!
I know 7.0 and 2000 are better and faster, and possibly more reliable. But having been tainted by 6.5 so badly, and having seen some of the amazing capabilities of Oracle 8i, I'm trying as hard as possible to avoid every using this "database" they call SQL Server again.
I read
Because, they certainly couldn't before. I live in the Chicago area and around here weather.com sucks. During our biggest snowstorm this year they didn't predict it until a few hours before, while the National Weather Service had it two days in advance. Its typical too... their weather is so inaccurate I rarely go there.
Anyone else think so?
A bit offtopic, but I just thought I'd pass this along:
e m&item=364088805
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt
Some moron is trying to sell a Williamette (Intel's next-generation Pentium) on Ebay. These things aren't available to the public yet. He even took the opportunity to illegally benchmark it. Little does he know that his story has been circulating faster than the ILOVEYOU virus thru Intel and pretty much everyone over there is familiar with it. He's screwed.
read my other post...after I bought it
This afternoon (minutes before this was posted), I finally decided I wanted to plug my computer into the stereo. And after reading this story and associated posts, I drove straight to Best Buy.
:).
I've got an Sound Blaster 32PNP sound card, Sony STR-DE835 Receiver (second from Sony's top of the line for consumer-grade receivers), and some big-ass JBL 3-way speakers with 12" woofers. I just bought $18 worth of Recoton (read: CRAP) RCA cable and a "stereo mini" adapter to plug RCA into my sound card. (note, please don't think I'm hyping up the stereo... I'm sure ALL of you have much better stereos than I do)
Anyway, This thing sounds bitchin! I love it, and its the best $18 I've spent on a nerd-toy in a while.
I dropped a real store-bought RIAA-endorsed Enya CD in my CD player (a real stereo component). I started up XMMS with a 128kbps joint-stereo "Book of Days" track. Pressed play on both at the same time and then switched the stereo's input back and forth between the MP3 player on the computer and the real CD player.
There IS a difference between the CD and the MP3. My humble and non audiophile opinion is that the difference is caused by the MP3 compression, as I could not hear ANY noise from the computer, even with the stereo relatively cranked. (no hisses, UM-UM-UM-UMs, etc)
I cannot imagine how this Dell thing would do a better job, except that it ceratinly would be nice to have a remote control and not have to fish tape another RCA cable under the carpet and across the room
On a side note, when I set this thing up I initially made the BIG mistake of plugging it into the "Phono" RCA input on the stereo... have no idea why it sounded so horrible. Then I moved it to the "CD" input and now it sounds great.
I'm going to swing by Best Buy on the way home and pick up such a cable, and am just wondering how much sound degredation/interference is to be expected off a cheap SoundBlaster32 pnp sound card? My stereo wasn't cheap and drives some rather large (3-way, 12-inch woofer) speakers. Will I at least get FM-quality sound trying to play MP3s thru this thing, or am I going to hear the pitch change every time the hard drive is accessed? (My apologies for using Slashdot for tech support...AGAIN)
I (and about a 25,000 other Java developers) was given a free StarOffice 5.2 at JavaOne (on June 6). As near as I can tell its a full release version. Works great, even installed over NFS. I'm liking it a heck of a lot better than the hideously ugly WordPerfect 8.
If someone runs gnapster on a locked-down *nix box with identd and everything else turned off, with a made up napster user name on a dynamic ip connection + email address at hotmail, how in the hell are they every going to get found?
Yes, you can eventually figure out who was using the IP at what time and find who owns the dial up account. Still, on a multi-user system, how do you know who it was?
There is no Java 2.0. Sun made this confusing for everyone. There is such a thing as the "Java2 platform".
e x.html
Java2 Standard Edition is (I believe) pretty much just the 1.2 JDK (Java Development Kit) and the core libraries.
Then there's Java2 Enterprise edition, which again contains JDK 1.2, as well as EJB 1.1, JavaMail, Servlets 2.2/JSP 1.1, and more.
Adding to the version fracus is that the "Java2" platform has version numbers. I have absolutely no idea how Sun is going to make a big media hit when they release (in the unforseeable distant future), JDK 2.0.
"Personal Java", which I am completely unfamiliar with, also appears to be on v1.2: http://www.javasoft.com/products/personaljava/ind
Oh well, anything is better than calling it "Java 2000"
I just leave myself logged in as root on console #6. I wrote a script that contains this:
/root/etc/textmode.dat /usr/local/glide/bin/test3Dfx
restoretextmode -r
consolechars -fgr8x16
xinit -e
and if q3 bites it I just hit Ctrl+Alt+F6 and run the script and everything's all happy again.
Thanks again for the info
The Internet Explorer company may have some trouble turning a profit, as the price of its product is rather low ($0).
:-)
Oh well, guess they'll just have to make it up in volume
Thanks much for the info, i'll give it a shot when I get home from work.
BTW, The only time Q3F crashes is because I have a horrible (56k) net connection and when things get too laggy Q3 has some trouble.
The only reason I ever have to reboot my machine is when Q3F takes a crap. I've got a 3dfx Voodoo3 and when a game crashes it COMPLETELY HOSES all video. The only way to get it back is to Ctrl+Alt+Backspace from X and blindly running /sbin/reboot. I've played with the *textmode commands and try as they might they are unable to recover the display... they do make it better, but I wouldn't say its anywhere near usable.
Other than the display being foobared, the sytem is fine. I just wanna know if this is normal behavior under Linux, and if its fixed in XFree4, or with other card/driver combos.
It would seem to me that determining the Web site that is producing a document is of paramount importance to a Web browser. Why is it that whatever MSIE component that determines the Web site that data is being received from hasn't been thoroughly tested for correctness? This isn't the first time MSIE has had problems here (remember the dotless IP address security zone problem?)
e telytrustedsite.com
If it is determining the URL in this way, wouldn't this bug also effect IE's security "zones?" Is it also possible link to a document like this:
http://www.evilvirusinfestedhellhole.com?.compl
and have that site operate with elevated security privileges?
I'm not trying to say that VB is forever bound to relational databases, nor am I saying that VB will never be able to access databases of other types. I just find it appalling that a language would take print(rset.get("foo")) and allow you to make it into
With Rset
Print !foo
End With
I have seen this used in real VB code, specifically in the middle-tier of a large (wannabe-)enterprise application, that was deployed as the "backbone" of an intranet in a company with more than 100k employees. It makes me sick to think about all the various kludges that were implemented to make that thing work because VB (and MTS) simply were not up to the task.
But, like so many other technologies that are "good in their niche", Microsoft is building up VB to handle things that it was never ever intended for. This language has no solid foundation. It has no standard, no specification. MS will throw any feature necessary into this thing to make it EASY at all expense.
This language has five different ways to say "NULL." This language has so many keywords its sickening. THIS LANGUAGE HAS AN OPERATOR TO TALK TO ODBC DATABASES!!! (its the excalamtion point ("!")) Yes, sure it makes it easy, but how long 'til all these features come back to bite you on the ass.
What do we do with the ODBC OPERATOR if/when RDBMS technology goes away in favor of object databases? What we have here is a case of lack of forward thinking. These are the people who brought you 8.3, GUI-in-the-kernel, the (corruptable) binary registry, and WINNT/SYSTEM32! They are thinking only of getting the product out the door with the most features first... at the price of not thinking about the long-term effect. Once you can't stand it anymore they'll tell you everythings going to be alright by coming out with kludges like Windows File Protection (fixes WinNT/system32) and Windows 95's hack for long file names... (everythings really still 8.3!) And you'll buy into it. ENJOY!
The track record for MS products in use by the US military:
- Left a navy ship stranded for several days
- Allowed the army's Web site to be repeatedly hacked
The track record for Windows CE
- All previous iterations have been slow
- All previous iterations have been unstable
- Most new versions of Microsoft products are general buggy and unreliable
YOU SAY: Nothing really prevents a Red Hat engineer from doing something equally stupid.
Ever heard of source RPMS? You can compile a source RPM using Red Hat's exact same settings and you should get a just about byte-for-byte duplicate version.
...is to understand where you are coming from. They want to know where you stand and the way you think so they can properly appease you and your followers. So now they can have all your issues "addressed" with well-thought out answers when the press comes down on them.
Its just like sending Microsoft reasons why you think they are bad on their doj vs. freedom to innovate page.
I'm not trying to be paranoid here, its just that if I were them, I would agree to talk to you (and pay to do so) for this reason.
(P.S. No i haven't read all 39,828 comments to see if this one is redundant or not)
Not trying to start a flamewar, just had a few thoughts on this matter:
- Everyone wanting to run new GUI apps should have Gnome or KDE **LIBRARIES** installed. They've been shipped in most all Linux distros for about a year now. If a user has been using Linux for more than a year, the user is capable of downloading them.
- Cutting edge new office / graphics software demands a reasonable system.
- GTK+, Gnome Libs and QT and KDE libs are not overly large
- All three are being improved upon quite rapidly. In the tradition of free software, version 2.0 is normally not a bloated v1.x, but a more full-featured, streamlined v1.x. Just look at how much faster Gnome 1.2 (1.1) is than Gnome 1.0. They also (IMHO) seem to be the most stable even though they are still in development.
- You do not need to run Gnome to run Gnome Applications. You do not need to run KDE to run KDE apps. Just the libraries.
- Not many new apps are built in Motif. Those that are initially had Commercial *nix versions before being ported to Linux or were ported to Linux before KDE/Gnome were stable. As evidence of this, WordPerfect 2000 is QT/KDE based, ApplixWare 5 and Mozilla use GTK+.