Then the question becomes, why don't we have Explorer EVs...
The reason, which I provided before, is because the "savings" is largely a lie that people buy into to feel better about their choices.
The Leaf sounds nice, but it only makes even a little bit of sense with a $7,500 tax credit (not a deduction, an outright credit of free money). Even then it isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
A Chevy Cruz gets great MPG, costs less, and doesn't have any range issues.
Back to the Ford Explorer, an EV version would be $20K more than the gas version, have crappy range, and would never make any economic sense, which is why Ford doesn't build one.
We will never run out of fuel.it might get more expensive, but we will never run out.
For what it is worth, I wouldn't mind an electric Suburban. Let me know when you can build one with a 400 mile range and good performance for about $70k.
Yes, but I can see their side. If I had a 40 mile round trip commute to work and it was just me, then my truck would be silly. I'd have something else that was far less expensive to drive.
Of course, I'd probably still have my truck, but something smaller and fun would be nice for such a drive, maybe a CTS.
A car topper is a PITA, a stow'n'Go is another headache to keep track of. Both technically work, but thanks, I'll keep my current truck.
Its not for Towing though, but MPG is much better than a TruckSUV spinnoff.
You might be shocked, the MPG isn't as far off as you'd think.
I've been doing a decent amount of highway driving recently, taking the kids to a weekend camp each weekend for the past three months. It is about 4 hours of highway driving and it has boosted my average MPG to 17. My truck gets about 20 MPG on the highway, about 14 in the city (less really since I remote start it often).
A minivan might get an average that is 3 MPG better, but that is a rounding error in my books.
If you take away the profits on the SUV, then car prices would just have to rise, that money isn't free. I have no doubt that GM made good money selling me my current Yukon, and that's fine. I want them to keep building them after all. The dealer didn't make much from me (I paid $700 under dealer invoice and they bought down my rate as well), and that's ok too, plenty of other suckers who don't know what they are doing to keep them in business.
And that was really all my point was. When we can't all agree together on what is right and wrong, how do you create some kind of AI convention to ensure that AIs only act for the public benefit?
It is like self-driving cars. You don't have to make them perfect, just better than humans.
We don't all have to agree on what is right or wrong, just most of us.
Do you not think that "most of us" would agree that murder is wrong?
Just because the solution isn't 100% perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
The Ford Explorer has a very nice 4 cyl EcoBoost engine option. The 2016 model improves this by raising it from 2.0L to 2.3L while making the MPG better.
Almost all small to midsize SUVs have a 4 banger option.
The main difference is performance and branding - cross overs tend to have 4 wheel drive options that wagons lacked and we now brand them as separate models rather than variants on the base sedans, even if they share frames with those sedans.
^ This is the truth.
A modern Ford Explorer is actually just a Ford Tarsus Station Wagon that is a bit taller.
Exact same drive train, transmission, etc. Sit in both, they are the same vehicle.
But Ford wouldn't sell very many Explorers if they were branded as a Tarsus Wagon.
Nobody is willing to be the one who pulls back first, because that gives everyone else the advantage.
That is not true, I'd be happy with a $1 increase in the gas tax. It would cost me money, but it would also encourage more efficient vehicles (including the next version of my own full size SUV).
The problem is, every time such an idea is tossed out, people complain that it is a regressive tax against the poor, since they can least afford it.
I find the lengths that people go to justify their wasting vast sums of limited resources to be, um, disingenuous
Justify? You're the one trying to justify driving around in a cheap little econobox.
I'll continue to enjoy my full size SUV, no justification required.
As far as wasting limited resources, what limited resources? We can make all the gas we ever want. Cheap gas from the ground might not be limited, but even it will last a very long time. When it runs low, we can make synthetic gas.
So, gas savings = $559 each year, and lower payments save $1422 each year. Total yearly savings is $1981 a year, and all this is not considering the difference in your auto insurance. So, you could rent an SUV ten times a year and it would be a wash. How many three-day trips do you take?
There are a few problems with your thinking.
The first is, "I want to enjoy the nicer vehicle all year long". There are many times having more space comes in handy, not just on road trips. Bringing home bikes for the kids, taking stuff to school for parties (my wife is a room mother and often has to take stuff to school), taking an extra kid or two places.
Can you fit 7 people in a small hatchback or wagon? Sure, but it just isn't as nice. I suspect a lot of people who bash large vehicles have little experience with them, you simply don't know what you're missing.
---
The second problem is that you are assuming that I can rent a vehicle as nice as I'm used to. Can you rent a Suburban? Sure. Can you rent the nice one? Not likely. Go find me a 4WD LTZ Suburban for rent, I suspect that is going to be quite hard.
Most of the major companies do have a handful of Suburbans for rent, I just checked Alamo and Thrifty, both have a Suburban LS for rent for about $1,000 for a week. Both have cloth seats, no technology, 2WD, etc.
Yea, thanks but no thanks. I pay about that price per month for my Yukon XL Denali and it is loaded with everything and I enjoy driving it every day. You can keep your little econobox, it doesn't work for me.
Then get a mini van. They have way more space than SUVs for a given vehicle size.
Compared to most crossovers, this is true. Even compared to a Tahoe this is true.
It is not true against a Suburban. When you actually put people in all 7 seats in a minivan, there is very little space in the back.
Most crossovers aren't really SUVs anyway. A Honda Odyssey isn't "better" than a Chevy Traverse in any real way, both get about the same MPG, both have about the same space inside, etc.
Having ocassionally rented the odd SUV, I'm always appaled at how little space they have relative to the size.
A true SUV (body on frame truck) has to be able to tow and go off-road, which eats up a lot of the space. A CUV (car based "suv") has more space and better handling.
Go drive the Ford Explorer, it is just a tall Ford Taurus station wagon, but if they called it that they wouldn't sell very many of them. It does drive a lot nicer than the older Explorer (I've owned 3, including a 1998 model with the 5.0 V8 in it) and it is a much more refined vehicle today.
If you're hauling people and luggate, an SUV is completely the wrong vehicle.
Maybe... the biggest problem with minivans is the lack of technology in them, the lack of decent engine options, and the lack of towing...
Give me a small block V8 or a turbo V6, give me 4WD, and give me 4 tons of towing ability and I'd consider it. Also, please make them another foot or two longer so there is some actual storage behind the third row seat.
Also, I'd like air conditioned seats, adaptive cruise control, auto-braking, lane keeping assist, and all the other goodies.
That doesn't exist today. If it did, I might buy one. Shame Lexus doesn't make a version of the Sienna minivan with those features added. For $50K or so I might own one.
1. Volvo is a safe vehicle that meets fuel economy standards without getting an SUV exemption
My Yukon is also a safe vehicle that is in the light truck category, because it is one...
2. SUV's typically use box on frame construction, which is unsafe for any other cars on the road because their bumpers are higher than other cards and they either roll over them or slice through their passenger compartments when the frame becomes detached from the box
Very few "SUVs" are still box on frame. Other than the full size Tahoe/Suburban line, what else still uses it? Everything from the Explorer to the Jeep is now unibody construction.
Your knowledge of bumpers is also way out of date, the bumper on my Yukon is much lower than you think it is. If I were to rear end a Prius (unlikely, since I have adaptive cruise control and auto-emergency braking).
The real issue is that a Prius is closer to 3,000lbs and my Yukon is just over 6,000lbs. If we crash head on, the winner will be obvious. But there is really no way to get the Yukon down to 3,000lbs and making every Prius 6,000lbs would be silly.
But this problem exists with large trucks already, if an 18 wheeler hits either one they are both toast.
So yeah, there are good reasons to detest SUVs.
And there are good reasons to love them, what is your point?
Anybody who sees a momentary dip in gas prices and decides to own one of them is an idiot who does not care about their own finances, consuming limited resources or the safety of others
Nice judgement there... I've owned a full size SUV for more than 15 years, it is a useful, practical vehicle that hauls stuff, tows stuff, and generally enables me to take care of my life and family. A Prius or a minivan would not work.
Slashdot Mirror
Then the question becomes, why don't we have Explorer EVs...
The reason, which I provided before, is because the "savings" is largely a lie that people buy into to feel better about their choices.
The Leaf sounds nice, but it only makes even a little bit of sense with a $7,500 tax credit (not a deduction, an outright credit of free money). Even then it isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
A Chevy Cruz gets great MPG, costs less, and doesn't have any range issues.
Back to the Ford Explorer, an EV version would be $20K more than the gas version, have crappy range, and would never make any economic sense, which is why Ford doesn't build one.
No. Choices can have consequences. Your choice to not vaccinate, you get to pay. Why should I pay for your decision to not vaccinate?
Because that is my right, which clearly you don't respect. You only respect rights of those who agree with you.
You're lucky to be able to be so selfish and stupid and get away with it, in most places in the world, you'd be killed for your beliefs.
Failure to receive the minimal recommended and required vaccinations is negligence.
Sigh, you're another person who knows nothing of history...
It starts there, then it moves to the one-child policy and forced abortions... "For the good of society and Mother Earth".
You really have no idea how bad your ideas really are...
Yes, but they don't because the cost would be too high and the range too short.
That is the big lie about current EVs, people haven't really noticed that small cars are getting 40+ MPG these days.
Sure, compared to a Chevy Traverse, a Leaf looks cheap to drive, but that is not an honest comparison.
How about a Chevy Cruz vs. a Leaf? Total cost of ownership over a three year lease on both or total cost of ownership over 5 years of buying both.
I suspect they are pretty close either way.
Show me a Chevy Traverse EV with 100 miles of range for $40k and I'll be impressed. Can't be done now of course.
$540 a month vs. $580 a month is not a material difference.
If it is, you should have a new car in the first place and should have something that costs less.
That is less than a 10% difference, it really shouldn't matter.
A Prius and a RAV4 are not the same type of vehicle.
A nice midsize SUV like a Ford Explorer isn't either, and you can get a nice one of those for under $30k.
You are comparing a Leaf to a Camry?
That is a dishonest comparison, those are not the same class vehicles.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki...
We will never run out of fuel.it might get more expensive, but we will never run out.
For what it is worth, I wouldn't mind an electric Suburban. Let me know when you can build one with a 400 mile range and good performance for about $70k.
Yes, the $30 I pay twice a year to change the oil is really going to do me in.
What either ICE expenses are there? For the first five years of ownership, there really aren't any.
Yes, but the part you're missing is that it is not my job to provide you with herd immunity.
That is fine, then give me the money that would otherwise be given to the school so I can pay for another option.
School vouchers fixes this problem instantly. Give us that option and you'll have no problems.
Yep, the Jeep Wrangler is a good example, it also might be the only other one. :)
When they say, "Jeep, there is only one", that is the one they are talking about. :)
Yes, but I can see their side. If I had a 40 mile round trip commute to work and it was just me, then my truck would be silly. I'd have something else that was far less expensive to drive.
Of course, I'd probably still have my truck, but something smaller and fun would be nice for such a drive, maybe a CTS.
Minivan with Car Topper and stow'nGo
A car topper is a PITA, a stow'n'Go is another headache to keep track of. Both technically work, but thanks, I'll keep my current truck.
Its not for Towing though, but MPG is much better than a TruckSUV spinnoff.
You might be shocked, the MPG isn't as far off as you'd think.
I've been doing a decent amount of highway driving recently, taking the kids to a weekend camp each weekend for the past three months. It is about 4 hours of highway driving and it has boosted my average MPG to 17. My truck gets about 20 MPG on the highway, about 14 in the city (less really since I remote start it often).
A minivan might get an average that is 3 MPG better, but that is a rounding error in my books.
If you take away the profits on the SUV, then car prices would just have to rise, that money isn't free. I have no doubt that GM made good money selling me my current Yukon, and that's fine. I want them to keep building them after all. The dealer didn't make much from me (I paid $700 under dealer invoice and they bought down my rate as well), and that's ok too, plenty of other suckers who don't know what they are doing to keep them in business.
And that was really all my point was. When we can't all agree together on what is right and wrong, how do you create some kind of AI convention to ensure that AIs only act for the public benefit?
It is like self-driving cars. You don't have to make them perfect, just better than humans.
We don't all have to agree on what is right or wrong, just most of us.
Do you not think that "most of us" would agree that murder is wrong?
Just because the solution isn't 100% perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
You want an SUV from Ford, nothing smaller than an Explorer
Your knowledge is about 5 years out of date.
Since 2011 the Explorer has been a CUV:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...
A Highlander is an SUV.
No it isn't, it is a Toyota Camry Station Wagon. But since they wouldn't sell many if they called it that, it is called a Highlander.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...
A SUV has a body on frame, a CUV has a unibody construction.
Other than the Tahoe/Suburban/Expedition, I don't think any SUVs left in the US have a body on frame. I can't think of one anyway.
The Ford Explorer has a very nice 4 cyl EcoBoost engine option. The 2016 model improves this by raising it from 2.0L to 2.3L while making the MPG better.
Almost all small to midsize SUVs have a 4 banger option.
The main difference is performance and branding - cross overs tend to have 4 wheel drive options that wagons lacked and we now brand them as separate models rather than variants on the base sedans, even if they share frames with those sedans.
^ This is the truth.
A modern Ford Explorer is actually just a Ford Tarsus Station Wagon that is a bit taller.
Exact same drive train, transmission, etc. Sit in both, they are the same vehicle.
But Ford wouldn't sell very many Explorers if they were branded as a Tarsus Wagon.
Nobody is willing to be the one who pulls back first, because that gives everyone else the advantage.
That is not true, I'd be happy with a $1 increase in the gas tax. It would cost me money, but it would also encourage more efficient vehicles (including the next version of my own full size SUV).
The problem is, every time such an idea is tossed out, people complain that it is a regressive tax against the poor, since they can least afford it.
I find the lengths that people go to justify their wasting vast sums of limited resources to be, um, disingenuous
Justify? You're the one trying to justify driving around in a cheap little econobox.
I'll continue to enjoy my full size SUV, no justification required.
As far as wasting limited resources, what limited resources? We can make all the gas we ever want. Cheap gas from the ground might not be limited, but even it will last a very long time. When it runs low, we can make synthetic gas.
So, gas savings = $559 each year, and lower payments save $1422 each year. Total yearly savings is $1981 a year, and all this is not considering the difference in your auto insurance. So, you could rent an SUV ten times a year and it would be a wash. How many three-day trips do you take?
There are a few problems with your thinking.
The first is, "I want to enjoy the nicer vehicle all year long". There are many times having more space comes in handy, not just on road trips. Bringing home bikes for the kids, taking stuff to school for parties (my wife is a room mother and often has to take stuff to school), taking an extra kid or two places.
Can you fit 7 people in a small hatchback or wagon? Sure, but it just isn't as nice. I suspect a lot of people who bash large vehicles have little experience with them, you simply don't know what you're missing.
---
The second problem is that you are assuming that I can rent a vehicle as nice as I'm used to. Can you rent a Suburban? Sure. Can you rent the nice one? Not likely. Go find me a 4WD LTZ Suburban for rent, I suspect that is going to be quite hard.
Most of the major companies do have a handful of Suburbans for rent, I just checked Alamo and Thrifty, both have a Suburban LS for rent for about $1,000 for a week. Both have cloth seats, no technology, 2WD, etc.
Yea, thanks but no thanks. I pay about that price per month for my Yukon XL Denali and it is loaded with everything and I enjoy driving it every day. You can keep your little econobox, it doesn't work for me.
For the weekend? Rent an SUV. The problem isn't that you go on a weekend trip with it: it's that you drive it to the store every day.
Yea, people keep saying that, but you can't, they aren't for rent.
Find me a 4 wheel drive Suburban LTZ for rent and then we can talk.
Then get a mini van. They have way more space than SUVs for a given vehicle size.
Compared to most crossovers, this is true. Even compared to a Tahoe this is true.
It is not true against a Suburban. When you actually put people in all 7 seats in a minivan, there is very little space in the back.
Most crossovers aren't really SUVs anyway. A Honda Odyssey isn't "better" than a Chevy Traverse in any real way, both get about the same MPG, both have about the same space inside, etc.
Having ocassionally rented the odd SUV, I'm always appaled at how little space they have relative to the size.
A true SUV (body on frame truck) has to be able to tow and go off-road, which eats up a lot of the space. A CUV (car based "suv") has more space and better handling.
Go drive the Ford Explorer, it is just a tall Ford Taurus station wagon, but if they called it that they wouldn't sell very many of them. It does drive a lot nicer than the older Explorer (I've owned 3, including a 1998 model with the 5.0 V8 in it) and it is a much more refined vehicle today.
If you're hauling people and luggate, an SUV is completely the wrong vehicle.
Maybe... the biggest problem with minivans is the lack of technology in them, the lack of decent engine options, and the lack of towing...
Give me a small block V8 or a turbo V6, give me 4WD, and give me 4 tons of towing ability and I'd consider it. Also, please make them another foot or two longer so there is some actual storage behind the third row seat.
Also, I'd like air conditioned seats, adaptive cruise control, auto-braking, lane keeping assist, and all the other goodies.
That doesn't exist today. If it did, I might buy one. Shame Lexus doesn't make a version of the Sienna minivan with those features added. For $50K or so I might own one.
1. Volvo is a safe vehicle that meets fuel economy standards without getting an SUV exemption
My Yukon is also a safe vehicle that is in the light truck category, because it is one...
2. SUV's typically use box on frame construction, which is unsafe for any other cars on the road because their bumpers are higher than other cards and they either roll over them or slice through their passenger compartments when the frame becomes detached from the box
Very few "SUVs" are still box on frame. Other than the full size Tahoe/Suburban line, what else still uses it? Everything from the Explorer to the Jeep is now unibody construction.
Your knowledge of bumpers is also way out of date, the bumper on my Yukon is much lower than you think it is. If I were to rear end a Prius (unlikely, since I have adaptive cruise control and auto-emergency braking).
The real issue is that a Prius is closer to 3,000lbs and my Yukon is just over 6,000lbs. If we crash head on, the winner will be obvious. But there is really no way to get the Yukon down to 3,000lbs and making every Prius 6,000lbs would be silly.
But this problem exists with large trucks already, if an 18 wheeler hits either one they are both toast.
So yeah, there are good reasons to detest SUVs.
And there are good reasons to love them, what is your point?
Anybody who sees a momentary dip in gas prices and decides to own one of them is an idiot who does not care about their own finances, consuming limited resources or the safety of others
Nice judgement there... I've owned a full size SUV for more than 15 years, it is a useful, practical vehicle that hauls stuff, tows stuff, and generally enables me to take care of my life and family. A Prius or a minivan would not work.