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Cheap Gas Fuels Switch From Electric Cars To SUVs
schwit1 points out news that's sure to clash with Earth Day narratives: drivers who bought hybrid and electric cars are switching back to SUVs at a higher rate than ever. Quoting:
According to Edmunds.com, about 22 percent of people who have traded in their hybrids and EVs in 2015 bought a new SUV. The number represents a sharp increase from 18.8 percent last year, and it is nearly double the rate of 11.9 percent just three years ago. Overall, only 45 percent of this year's hybrid and EV trade-ins have gone toward the purchase of another alternative fuel vehicle, down from just over 60 percent in 2012. Never before have loyalty rates for alt-fuel vehicles fallen below 50 percent. ... Edmunds calculates that at the peak average national gas price of $4.67/gallon in October 2012, it would take five years to break even on the $3,770 price difference between a Toyota Camry LE Hybrid ($28,230) and a Toyota Camry LE ($24,460). At today's national average gas price of $2.27/gallon, it would take twice as much time (10.5 years) to close the same gap.
Tax gas and spend the proceeds on "green" R&D.
Table-ized A.I.
Hurry up Elon, we need to get your great design and engineering into our less-richer hands please!!
We've read this a 1000 times. Stupid people think prices will be low forever. A year later said people cry they are paying $250 a week for gas. Can't fix stupid.
For most people, especially ones with NEW cars, the cost of fuel is such a small portion of TCO that gas mileage is almost inconsequential within reason. People get psychotic when gas swings one way or another because people are idiots, who cannot ignore the 20-80 dollars they spent today in favor of focusing on the 500 dollars they pay every month.
I didn't see them breaking it down by make/model...
An owner of a Lexus hybrid-SUV trading it in on a non-hybrid SUV is one thing.
But I very much doubt that there's a line of Leaf or Tesla owners trading their EVs for SUVs.
TFA is beyond dumb. It's not people switching back, it's people buying a second car for their household. Many people have one EV and one ICE car.
EV sales are rising fast. Few people switch back after getting one and realizing how great they are, mostly because they did their homework and made sure it suited them before spending tens of thousands of dollars.
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SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Because gas prices will definitely stay low
My Camry Hybrid is quieter, smoother, and has over 30 extra HP compared to the 4 cyl Camry. You don't ONLY get improved mileage from most hybrids. They should be comparing the cost of the hybrid vs. the V6 model when calculating years to make up cost (not a perfect comparison, but much closer). They are just skewing statistics...
Edmunds calculates that at the peak average national gas price of $4.67/gallon in October 2012, it would take five years to break even on the $3,770 price difference between a Toyota Camry LE Hybrid ($28,230) and a Toyota Camry LE ($24,460). At today's national average gas price of $2.27/gallon, it would take twice as much time (10.5 years) to close the same gap.
Let me know when Toyota starts shipping hybrid vehicles with batteries that actually retain their ability to recharge to a usable capacity for 10+ years.
TFA is beyond dumb. It's not people switching back, it's people buying a second car for their household. Many people have one EV and one ICE car.
This.
Also, I have yet to see an EV or Hybrid which is suitable for a soccer mom.
People should also realize that the yellow carpool stickers are no longer available for hybrids... to get the new white stickers, you have to be either a plug-in, hydrogen, or LNG fueled.
3.2 Percent.
Hybrids are overly expensive, complicated messes. They're great for keeping auto mechanics employed and the associated unions silent. When the battery needs replacing after 10 years, you'll sooner junk the vehicle than pay thousands of dollars to keep it going.
car is being repaired. Ridiculous! 20 MPG and every time I step on the brakes or the gas it rocks back and forth like a rocking chair. It seats about as many people as a sedan and can carry only slightly more junk than a sedan. Why do people want to drive these things? They aren't attractive, they don't stop/go fast, they can't carry much stuff. I don't get it.
I don't understand why so many people want to drive pickups either. In a pickup you can only haul stuff you care about in decent weather. I get it if you're a farmer or ranch hand and need to haul messy stuff year round, but why would anyone else want to drive a truck? And why is it that the bigger the pickup, the greater the odds that they will back into parking spaces?
A) Previous electric car owners have been successfully brainwashed by Corporate America into hating the environment because it hampers them from making lots and lots of money.
B) Electric cars are good for commuting, but not so good for carting the family and materials around. As SUV's (more accurately Crossovers) get better and better mileage, they're more viable options.
C) They drink too much milk and eat too many soy products, making their schlongs shrink. Buying an SUV gives them the illusion their peni are bigger.
Love,
The Oil Industry
P.S. We secretly own Whole Foods. You dumb fucks have been giving your money to us all along.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
I'd guess at least part of the switch is from couples having families. If you're a single (or married) 20-something with a hot job making good bank, that fancy electric car is a huge status symbol. But five years later with a kid or two, and the thing is simply impractical.
Where I live (Vancouver, Canada) the purchase of an electric car is never about savings over gas prices. Even here, where gas costs ~$1.25 CAD per liter and hydroelectric residential power costs $0.0797 CAD per kWh for first 1,350 kWh ($0.1195 CAD per kWh over the 1,350), with a car like the Nissan Leaf you'll never save enough over the life of the car in fuel costs to offset the higher price for the car.
For the people I know with Leafs and Volts it's about doing their bit to reduce pollution and CO2 output, not saving money.
You know, I used to think the unabashed Steve Jobs worship around Slashdot was embarassing. But compared to the number of Slashdotters walking around today with Elon Musk's spooge in their mouths, Jobs was positively REVILED around here.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
I recently had some extensive work done on my non-hybrid car, thankfully all under warranty. My car is vanilla gasoline engine with a manual gearbox. I was given exact same model car as a loaner but with a hybrid drive and CTV.
Well, the hybrid had stop-and-go feature, had regenerative bakes and and new engine grill shutters for supposedly better highway mileage. Over a week of communing, it saved me about 5$ in gas. Underwhelming to say the least, especially when hybrid is at $5000 premium over my model. While I enjoyed eery quietness in electric-only mode, it hardly ever stayed there, and overall fuel savings are just not there. This could be because hybrid system was "strapped" into regular car, and unlike say Prius, that was designed around being hybrid.
I am not averse to electric or hybrid power trains, but I think present EV/hybrid offerings in sub-$100K category are underwhelming. When it is time to replace my car, based on loaner experiences, I would not be considering hybrid version.
Let me know when Toyota starts shipping hybrid vehicles with batteries that actually retain their ability to recharge to a usable capacity for 10+ years.
They've been shipping those batteries... since 2001. See this 10 year checkup from Consumer Reports:
http://www.consumerreports.org...
Moreover, Toyota made it so that you can replace individual battery cells, instead of only being able to replace everything at once. My GF's Prius needed a few cells replaced, and the price was quite reasonable. ($250? I forget the exact number.)
I theorize that short-sided thinking has a lot to do with this. Majority of people don't seem to be great at abstract thinking to grasp long-term large-scale problems like fossil fuel resources or global climate changes. Any ideas on how to get more people to understand the importance of the larger picture outcomes of our choices?
You talk better than you fool!
SUVs aren't necessarily the huge behemoths they once were. The current big fad in SUV's is small crossovers. For example, the top-selling car in the US is the Honda CRV, an "SUV" that's something like a hatchback Civic with raised suspension. It gets 29mpg, which isn't too bad at all. There's a large number of these SUVs that get mileage in the upper 20s/gallon.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
I don't care how cheep gas gets, Plenty of EV charging stations are 100% free. Last I checked, no one in my area was giving away free gas?
Further, people are obviously uninformed or misled on how EV's are, in the most important ways, superior automobiles for the daily use:
1) ZERO MAINTENANCE (except for breaks & tires, wipers/fluid)
2) Vastly fewer points of failure - NO: fuel pumps, alternators, starters, automatic transmission(unless you count a 1 speed transmission), main seals, mufflers, fuel injectors, heater cores, etc., etc...
3) Electricity is far cheaper than any gas any where every day.
4) Used EV's are SUPER CHEAP right now - http://goo.gl/ZAJV81
5) EV's are super quiet, peaceful, meditative.
1) Combine two things that are sort of similar but not really - e.g. EVs and hybrids or tablets and e-ink e-readers
2) Make a statistical claim about the combined group - 'People are leaving EVs and hybrids", "Tablets and E-readers bad for sleep/eyes"
3) Forget to mention one of the two in the headline - 'People dump EVs', 'E-readers bad for sleep/eyes"
By combining the two, this report doesn't really tell us anything useful. I'd love to know the different rates of people abandoning EV or hybrids, as I think they are two very different propositions.
Hybrids, at the end of the day, are simply a different way of building efficient petrol/diesel powered cars. From what I've heard that efficiency has been a lot less in real life, with milage claims for things like the Prius not really living up to the hype. With ever more efficient petrol engines on the market, and gas prices so low, the efficiency improvements have to be pretty significant to make a big difference and to offset the higher cost of buying many hybrids.
EVs on the other hand are a totally different beast, and the reasons people might give up on them are different. Are people buying EVs and then finding range is more of a problem than they thought? Did they have problems finding charing points? Was overnight, at-home charging not good enough for them? Etc, etc.
In addition, this report talks about the number of people who are trading in their EVs/Hybrids for something else. But that doesn't really tell us anything about how much people like EVs and Hybrids as it only includes people who are switching. It doesn't provide any analysis of how many people are keeping their EVs for longer.
What's most annoying is that there are genuinely interesting questions to be asking about the EV and hybrid market, but this data isn't really answering any of them well.
Paul Leader
If you're going to go buy an SUV based on the fact the gas prices have been lower for a couple weeks, you're an idiot and should be barred from using money.
The fact that a person must have a high wage to afford an electric car is what is fueling the switch to SUVs. If you have a high disposable income, you've done the whole uncomfortable tiny car thing and want something comfy that seats a growing family.
There will be a proper revolution once electric cars are equally cheap as economy cars, and the final one once those cheap electric cars are 5+ years used and the pizza delivery guy can afford one.
I will not buy a new car unless it's fully electric. I made that vow when I was first able to drive, and have bought used ever since. My car has only twice been made in the same decade I live in, and I'm fifty years old. I've been able to afford a new car for some time, but not a new electric one... yet.
I mean, you'd have to be rich if you went out and bought a new car every time the gas prices changed. Who in their right mind looks to buy a new car just cause gas is a couple bucks cheaper? Is this really a thing?
I am moving out of the country and I was trying to sell my smart ForTwo. Then I realized there was no market for a gas efficient commuter car.
CarMax offered me a whopping $3700 under Edmonds trade in price and $6200 under dealer retail price. Obviously CarMax thought this car would be hard to sell.
I drive 40 miles each way on my commute. Up until September of last year I was driving a paid off 2006 Tundra, averaged probably 17mpg. While gas was high I was spending $75-100 a week. In September I traded it in and got a new Focus which averages around 33mpg. It now costs me about $20 to fill up, and I use roughly $25 worth of gas a week. I went from spending $100 a week to $100 a month on gas, and the savings more than cover the monthly payment ($125 a month for 36 months). Why spend significantly more for a hybrid/electric when this saves me plenty of money already? Especially considering the range issues of many hybrids (since a full tank gets me roughly 320 miles at $20 a tank).
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
I don't think Climate Change is anything to drastically curve our behavior over. However there is a saying "Waist not, want not." It means you should try and get the most with the resources you have. I can see some reasons to go back to a gas car from full electric. I can not see why you want to buy a vehicle that waists it. That isn't getting the most from your own resources. I wonder what was so wrong with the hybrids.
Lets almost double that gas price and assume that for some crazy reason US production drops drastically ignoring that as oil price rises incentives for drilling and exploration increase as well. Even then is it really worth it if you don't care about "green" creds? You end up with a more complex vehicle which I assume increases the cost of maintenance especially if you're looking at keeping it a minimum of 5+ years to recoup your cost with gas savings.. It just doesn't seem to make sense.
Keep in mind that additional costs built into a car may be financed at or near 0%, while paying for gas at the pump is often put on credit cards with high interest rates. Also, when you trade it in, the hybrid technology may retain some value, whereas the gas, when consumed, has zero value.
That is just financial cost. There are of course other costs, but that goes both ways, like cost to the environment, and the cost of not being able to carry larger loads. However, soon there will be electric SUVs. What this is showing is that the market for electric SUVs will be HUGE.
Bullshit. There's still a motor in there, you know. Anything that has moving parts is going to need maintenance sooner or later. Sure, EV's need less of it, and that's great, but there can never be any such thing as a car that can be called 'zero maintenance' with a straight face.
And electric charge points being free-as-in-beer is only true in the same sense that parking at the mall is free. You don't pay for it directly, but you DO pay for it because the cost of it is folded into whatever else you're buying.
Someday, compared our (US) oil consumption between the 1970s and today - even with all those gas guzzling SUVs like the Ford Excursions. The CAFE standards are a big reason.
I wish we could tighten the standards even more to help alleviate the Summer smog. But the auto manufacturers and the oil companies lobby REAL hard to prevent that. And then they love to tie pollution control in with Global Warming; which then gets the peanut gallery involved.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
We are a foolish nation of consumers who can't seem to think past tomorrow. I can't wait for the economic collapse that follows.
People are going to lock themselves into large vehicles again, and when the prices adjust accordingly, they won't be able to pay their bills and we will see 2008/2009 all over again on a smaller scale. Please oh please, let people not be shocked by this. I know I won't be.
Place something witty here
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/n...
And when you mean real problems, you mean things like large drinks ?
Mind if I point out that from an ownership standpoint, used EVs being super cheap isn't a good thing. It means that the people who bought them, a lot of those people, don't want them any more. Stop and think about that from a potential buyers stand point. If you don't ask why they're super cheap when they were quite expensive new, you're sort of an idiot.
is that Americans will always drive big cars and trucks. We like big roads and wide open spaces. We like the space and utility that a truck offers. We like the feeling of security that driving a big hulking SUV offers.
Hybrids and electrics are a nice idea but for many people they are wholly impractical. Too small, too expensive compared to a gas powered equivalent, limited hauling capability. The high mileage ratings are for city driving. Once you get out on the freeway the advantage is lessened. For a lot of Americans, their daily commute is on the freeway.
Frankly, if I was looking for a vehicle that got great gas mileage I would buy a diesel. Better highway mileage, less complex than an hybrid, proven long term reliability.
That translates out to:
"Given the option, people will buy the vehicle they actually want, rather than settling for for electric/alt-fuel vehicles."
Most of this is an age thing. People who bought a Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid in their 20s are now in their 30s. They need more room for expanding families. That was my situation so I traded in my 2003 civi hybrid and bought a big ass SUV. Would have loved to have gotten a Hybrid, but there were few in my price range. Ford used to make an Escape Hybrid, it was what I wanted but they no longer produce it. I considered the Prius wagon but I ended up going another direction.
I'm driving a Chevy Traverse SUV as a rental while my car is in the shop, and the handling is crap, it's a pain to move and park and I can't wait to get rid of it and get my car back!
It's mind blowing that these lumbering beasts are so popular. Give me a nimble sporty car any day!
There's another reason. There are a lot more hybrid, diesel, and efficient trucks and SUVs becoming available. Most Americans' sense of the fuel efficiency of vehicles is distorted because it's measured in MPG. MPG is actually the inverse of fuel economy. Consequently the amount of fuel saved by vehicles like the Prius is exaggerated.
Here are the EPA figures for a 2004 3L 4WD Toyota Highlander, a 2015 3L 4WD Toyota Highlander Hybrid, and a 2015 Prius. Say you'd previously owned the 2004 Highlander and were looking to replace it. If you looked only at MPG, you'd think the Prius saves you a lot more gas than the Highlander Hybrid. The Prius gets 31 more MPG while the Highlander Hybrid only gets 9 more MPG.
But MPG is the inverse of fuel economy. Scroll down to "Annual Fuel Cost". The 2004 Highlander is estimated to cost $1900/yr in fuel. The Highlander Hybrid $1300/yr. The Prius $700/yr. In other words, switching to the Highlander Hybrid saves you $600/yr. Switching to the Prius saves you $1200/yr. The Highlander Hybrid gives you 50% the fuel savings of a Prius despite "only" getting a 9 MPG improvement vs 31 MPG improvement. How can this be? Because MPG is the inverse of fuel economy. Every time you double MPG, you save half the fuel you did in the previous doubling.
A lot of people laughed when hybrid trucks and SUVs first came out. If you want to save gas with a hybrid, why are you buying a big truck instead of an econobox like the Prius? But they were being deceived by MPG being the inverse of fuel consumption. If we as a country want to reduce fuel consumption, it's actually the low MPG vehicles like trucks and SUVs whose fuel economy you want to improve first by hybrid-izing them. They're the ones burning a disproportionately large amount of fuel, so improving their mileage first will save more fuel. Economy cars already burn so little fuel that making them a hybrid gets you little improvement. e.g. Dropping a hybrid in a 35 MPG economy car to get 50 MPG only saves you $350/yr by EPA estimates. While dropping the hybrid in a 19 MPG SUV to get 28 MPG saves you $600/yr. In other words, each SUV-buyer you can convince to buy a hybrid SUV instead saves nearly twice as much fuel as each environmentalist you convince to switch from their already-efficient car to a Prius.
If we really want to save gas, we should be concentrating on ways to improve the mileage of pickup trucks, SUVs, minivans, and tractor trailers (actually most of their cargo should be shifted to trains, but that's another argument). The rest of the world uses liters/100 km to avoid this misconception about fuel economy.
I drove a Volt for 3 years. I loved driving electric and the regen braking. I hated the rest of that car, its junk. When looking for another EV, I could not afford a Tesla and all of the other models have serious limitations. I didn't buy an SUV but I did buy another gasoline car. I'm sure there will be better EV options in a few short years. Until then, I'm back to gas. My decision had nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of gas.
Good for them.. One thing.... When the price jumps up again. I don't want to see some soccer Mom on the news with a Chevy Tahoe complaining that she has to spend 200$ to fill up every week and life is sooooo difficult and she can't feed her little spawn brats. (BOO HOO)
The only reason Oil is cheap is because the OPEC folks are trying to keep the price of a barrel of oil under 70$ and put the American Oil companies out of business. Then they will swoop in, buy up the dregs of the American companies (and their drilling/Fraking operations), bring in a bunch of Saudis / Cheap foreign labor and jack the price back up to 100-ish a barrel again...
Personally, I don't like hybrids and electrics for the "environmental" benefits. I like them because I want to see my country get off this "crack rock" dependency on Middle Eastern oil and they help us get to that point...
Tax gas and spend the proceeds on "green" R&D.
Seems pretty rational to me. You could even just spend the proceeds on our deficit or even just lower taxes because of the revenue.
The government doesn't even need to subsidize R&D spending if gasoline taxes made the price of gas reflect its true cost to society. $8/gallon gas would make our cars more efficient real quick. Obviously we wouldn't want to go to that level overnight because of its impact on the shipping industry, but over a decade or so our economy could shift to use more locally raised food, no more 2 day shipping of a toothbrush on Amazon Prime, etc.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
So if electricity is so cheap, why doesn't my electric company give it away for free?
Wait until full electric cars gain a great percentage of cars out on the road and start putting a real load on the system and on the meter of the business housing them. We'll see if they remain free.
And if they do then I *will* question why I am paying an electric bill at home.
Drill Baby Drill
Does the left never tire of being horribly wrong ?
I don't care how cheep gas gets, Plenty of EV charging stations are 100% free. Last I checked, no one in my area was giving away free gas?
Not around here there isn't.. Even Costco took out their chargers because nobody used them.
The main problem with EV's is range and recharge time. In some areas this is less of an issue, but here in Texas, having 300 miles of range (without running the AC) is going to be a problem for most people. In NYC that might not be a problem because where you want to go is likely a whole lot closer.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
My immediate thought is that perhaps the 1st gen users are just cycling to their next car? Why do we assume that people will always buy the exact same type of car again? THat actually seems unreasonable to me... Hybrids and EVs tend to be smaller vehicles, and there is some natural tendency to get something "different" when you get a new car. How many people who last owned a compact car bought the same class of vehicle again? How many went on to buy SUVs/trucks? That is important info if we want to make a proper comparison.
Anecdotal example: I drive a pickup truck, and I have owned it for 11 years. It is on its way out soon, and I can't wait to get a small car as I am tired of having something that costs so much to fill up, has bad traction on snow/ice, and is hard to navigate in tight parking lots. But then maybe after xx years in a compact, I'll buy another truck...
Apparently, the average distance driven for cars in the US is closer to my experience than yours, under 10k per year. We own a 1999 vehicle with 60k miles on it, and a 2010 vehicle with about 25k on it.
When I look at vehicle expenses, the purchase price, maintenance, and insurance are the most significant costs by far. In the last 18 months, when I started an experiment to log every fuel purchase for my 1999 vehicle, I've spent $1400 on fuel at premium 91 octane prices in California. I get about 29 mpg on highway cruising, and only 18-22 mpg in short trips around congested cities. Changing from this to a hybrid would make no economic sense to me. I would like to have a zero emission vehicle for my short commutes, but I do not think it is better for the environment to scrap my car and encourage manufacture of a new one, so long as it keeps passing the smog tests with flying colors.
It's true that for someone logging huge highway miles per year, fuel costs dominate. However, hybrid vehicles do almost nothing for this use case except add unnecessary weight to the car. The same chassis, tires, and aero treatments would get better efficiency with a pure gas motor sized appropriately for economical cruising. It's silly when people compare a hybrid to a V6 or V8 pure gas configuration, rather than to a small 4-cylinder turbo.
Bullshit, Bullshit. Maintenance is, in the parlance of automobiles, is anticipated service not in response to a component failure, but "the act of inspecting or testing the condition of car subsystems (e.g., engine) and servicing or replacing parts and fluids" ... "parts are replaced to avoid major damage or for safety reasons, e.g. timing belt replacement". Why don't you walk into a dealership and ask about the maintenance schedule for a Nissan Leaf; (Spoiler alert) It's laughably short, and almost entirely Inspection. however, they did mention the optional replacement of an in-cabin air filter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...
All of the 440 Volt (CHAdeMO) charging stations I visit in Kansas City, are 100% free, and I typically DO NOT shop at those location while charging (mostly because it only takes 15 minutes).
http://goo.gl/KBDn2Y
So if you buy a hybrid used, that "extra cost" is non-existent, and hybrids are usually at a higher trim level by default in order to justify the higher initial cost. The maintenance needs are less than a full-blown ICE car (10K mi between oil changes because the gas engine is not on 100% of the time). I was actually getting -at least- 45MPG in my Prius with only mild driving techniques (I don't hypermile because it irritates everyone else). The batteries are warrantied for 10yr/100K mi - and when they finally do go nearly all of the parts are recycled/refurbished because folks arelooking for less expensive replacement batteries. I think prius battery replacement at dealer using new parts is $3,000..used packs are much cheaper.
Hybrid is basically set up to make it really, really easy to coast everywhere you drive - like coasting at 40MPH.. The one I drive now also has a lot of torque as well but since I like the car and I want it to last I don't always drive it like that. (roughly equilvalent to a V6 but with a modest 87 octane gas engine).
"ZERO MAINTENANCE"
EV's do not have "zero maintenance", they have extremely long time periods between maintenance and far fewer parts to maintain but those that do have to be maintained are far more expensive. The battery of course is the big one, $8 - $12K every 6-15 years depending on charging, usage, climate, etc. Don't get me wrong the economics may work out given a comparative gas vehicles more regular fuel, parts, labor, etc but not nearly as conclusively as you're suggesting.
The switch to SUVs has more to do with crumbling, crappy roads and harsh weather than gas prices. Many electric and hybrid vehicles just don't cut it when you have to drive on bad roads or in heavy winter conditions.
Just in case you hadn't heard about this, there is an alternative to purchasing Automobiles called Leasing? The relatively low price point is from the automaker already recouping its money from the lease, and the low demand in the market. But go ahead, don't buy the cheapest car you could possibly own, everyone else is much better off profiting from your poor choices! :D
Are these charge points mostly a west coast thing? Here in the west Chicago suburbs I've seen a grand total of (1) charging stations and that is despite the dozen or so Model S's I see on the road regularly.
What's wrong with 15 minutes recharge time? Common, admit it pal, you are straw-manning charge station over there at Costco. A good 440 Volt charging station makes anyone with an EV, in Texas-speak, happier than a two with dog with two peckers. I'll bet you've never used an EV, and the concept concept of driving an EV just don't get your cows a runn'in, unless you can go Muddin' in one! 'Merica!
oh, then you could just be smarter than everyone, buy an electric generator, and charge with that ;)
Free charge points all over the place here in KC, and these are just the Rapid Chargers. http://goo.gl/KBDn2Y
What are you talking about, I see 30 rapid chargers in the Chicago area!?
http://goo.gl/qsVqug
And I say so what. Just a few short decades ago a typical "SUV" got a big whoping 12 MPG. I haven't seen a large vehicle get less han 20 MPG these days. Many are as high as the mid 20's to the low 30's. This is a non-story. People who need or want big vehicles will buy big vehicles.
I know very few people who are buying an extra vehicle for the first time, but I know multiple families that have kept a second car for years. The second car gets traded in and replaced just like the primary vehicle.
Does it come from magic jelly-bean fields?
40% of electricity comes from burning coal.
23% comes from burning gasoline
http://www.tsp-data-portal.org/Breakdown-of-Electricity-Generation-by-Energy-Source#tspQvChart
So your electric car is still running of of burning fossil fuels.
1) "Because no one wants them"
:)"
Want is completely subjective. People frequently do not know what they want. Your argument is essentially that people are stupid... ?
2) "I don't want some idiot behind the wheel falling asleep or into a trance"
I think people falling asleep behind the wheel is more about highway hypnosis/poor sleep/alcoholism, than the lack of sound. Also, how is the lack of sound supposed to induce a trance?
3) "you can use them as a coffin when they get into an accident with a real car
Sure, they make great coffins, if you're stupid enough to believe that most, or even all EV's are anything like a Smart car.
Your arguments are worthless, and you should be moderated down.
Again, Major repairs, ARE NOT maintenance!
I knew last year buying a huge pickup track was a good move. Hybrids were in high demand. F-150's not so much. Now, I drive to work alone in a space the size of my living room, with enough room in back to haul my furniture. If gas stays cheap, it costs $50 a week to fill up, not $100. If gas does rise, I am heavily invested in oil and refining stocks. Can't lose.
The problem is even with those savings, my paid for gasoline vehicle will not cost me $11k to operate for the next few years. Nor do I want to insure another vehicle that I can only use for short range trips due to the lack of charging stations in my area. Renting a normal vehicle for long trips isn't always practical either. It may be worthwhile in 2020 though.
Sorry, this text gives my English parser a General Protection Fault. Even the logic analyzer can't correct it.
Many of the hybrids were purchased using credits from the Federal Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009. Now it's time to trade those vehicles in and look at the true cost of ownership of the next vehicle.
You're splitting the terminology pretty thin there. How is a battery swap any different from brake pads (besides cost & lifetime), they both have to be replaced depending on usage & driving conditions. A battery pack that is taken care of (limited full discharges, slow charging, moderate climate) is going to last a long time just like a set of brake pads that aren't pushed (slow, steady stops, flat terrain, etc). Lets just call it "cost of ownership" shall we.
Awwww... don't like what I have to say so you whine like a bitch and say I should be moderated down?
Let's see Point #1 If the vehicles were in demand (I.E. if people wanted them) the price would be higher. THat's basic economics, sorry you are too stupid to understand that.
Point #2 You are the fool that bleated "EV's are super quiet, peaceful, meditative."
Meditation is generally a trance-like state, like sleep.
Point #3, you have no intellignece, so no one would expect you to have a sense of humor either...
washing my hands of your worthless stain on the internet
If sales of EV's etc are going down, perhaps the SMART people can pick them up at a lower price-point...
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Wait until you get to replace the battery unit then come back and tell me how cheap your EV is in comparison. :D
In NYC that might not be a problem because where you want to go is likely a whole lot closer.
I've heard this argument and it doesn't work. Most people in Manhattan don't have cars, it's too expensive to park them.
The lots that exist are tight and attendants shuffle cars around quite a bit. They aren't going to be plugging and unplugging cars all day.
In the other boroughs most people park at the curb wherever they can find a spot, sometimes blocks away from home.
No way they will be able to recharge their car.
An EV works if
(1) the carrying capacity meets your needs
(2) you have a consistent place to park that you can plug in and
(3) all the places you need to go are within round trip range. If they are not within round-trip range your destination or someplace in between must also have a charging station.
The actual article is titled "Hybrid and Electric Vehicles Struggle to Maintain Owner Loyalty". Shame on Slashdot for not getting even the title correct, since it has little bearing on electric vehicles.
The example in the article claims a 10-year payback at current fuel prices for a Toyota Camry hybrid. It doesn't say how many miles/year that is based on but I've tried to recreate the calculation, and I think it must have been 13,000 miles/year driving, which is far fewer than some people drive. And this is based on 41 MPG combined for the hybrid model compared to 28 MPG for the standard Camry, a difference of just 13. (This gap widens to 18 if you do mostly city driving.)
And worse, no comparable example is quoted for electric vehicles, which can have an effective MPG in triple digits. Given that some EV's are not much more than similar hybrids in cost these days, EV's offer a far better value proposition. Pure hybrids aren't that attractive for either environmental or cost reasons, given that the mileage improvements are modest over their standard counterparts. I wouldn't be surprised if some hybrid owners were trading in for SUV's, but I'd also expect to see hybrid owners trading for pure EV's. Hybrids without charging ability or significant battery storage are going to get squeezed out of the market.
(Disclaimer: I drive a Chevy Volt, and I love my car.)
"What's wrong with 15 minutes recharge time?"
Decreasing your battery life? While battery management systems have apparently improved drastically there are still limitations. Continual fast charging WILL decrease the battery life, though with a good BMS that will be limited to roughly a 10% additional performance loss over a decade. However as part of that there is talk that some BMSs will outright refuse the fast charge a vehicle under certain circumstances (empty battery, too many uses, etc)
F yeah!
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Because it's a small market EVs are lumped together with Hybrids. Hybrids are hardly electric cars - almost all hybrids on the road are ICE cars with electric assist.
Also, if one trades small car for a bigger car it hardly means they dislike 'electric' cars.
Home charging stations max power draw is about 7kW. Similar to an electric clothes dryer. It's not going to be the grid sagging apocolypse some have claimed.
Electric motors are in the 90%+ efficiency range. The best petrol/diesel engines are well below half that.
Electric vehicles get cleaner as the grid gets cleaner.
The correlation files.
So... when you have to relocate, how does it feel to have to ship your car across the country instead of driving it there?
If the vehicles were in demand (I.E. if people wanted them) the price would be higher. THat's basic economics, sorry you are too stupid to understand that.
Only once you reach a certain point in production numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...
Last year I looked at a used 2012 Camry for $18,700, but instead purchased a used 2012 Nissan Leaf for $15,600. Right now, that same dealer is selling the Nissan Leaf for less than $15,000. In purchase price alone, I am already ahead.
My SUV was going through $50 to $60 per week. The Leaf costs about $38 per month to go the same distance. In five years, I will have saved the entire purchase price of the car in gasoline costs alone.
Maintenance costs are negligible. Rotate and balance tires, fill windshield washer fluid. The battery is warranted until 2021. No oil changes, no spark plugs, no alternator, no exhaust, no transmission. I consider this a no brainer.
I still keep my SUV for long trips but for the daily commute, the Leaf is the most economical and fun way to go.
Battery replacement isn't AS bad as it sounds, you average car needs a lot of regular maintenance over 10 years that an EV doesn't, such as oil changes (~$2,000 (150,000 miles, 50 oil changes, $40 each)) alternators (~$300, I replaced 2 over 8 years at $150 each), Starters (~$300, 3 over 8 years @ $100 each), Batteries (~$150, 2 over 8 years at $75 each), Electronics (replaced an ICM at about $150) adding up to at least ~$3,000 and that was doing all the work myself (though it was a used vehicle, new vehicle maintenance may be considerably less. So assuming that EV's have much less maintenance AND they are cheaper to drive per mile they may still be at least similar to gas vehicles from a purely economic standpoint if not a little cheaper. Of course all of this is AFTER you've purchased the car, with prices still considerably more expensive than gasoline vehicles I'm not sure they make economic sense at present.
1) ZERO MAINTENANCE (except for breaks & tires, wipers/fluid)
No engine maintenance? No battery maintenance? No lights? Bearings?
What are you talking about, I see 30 rapid chargers in the Chicago area!?
http://goo.gl/qsVqug
1 in Naperville, 1 in St. Charles, 1 in Aurora, etc. All that map is doing is proving my point. I did say "western suburbs" after all.
I will have to ask the next Porche owner how long it'll take (s)he to recoop their investment compared to any of the other VW models?
FYI moronic press people, there's more to a hybrid than fuel efficiency. Brakes don't wear anywhere near as much thanks to regenerative braking, the engine components have far less stress on them so will last longer thanks to battery/EV power assist, the cars run quieter and don't even run when stopped so it just feels more relaxing when sitting in traffic or at a light or stop sign. There is also the fact that the air you and others will be breathing in the vicinity of the hybrid vehicle will be a bit cleaner too. Just to name a few.
Used EV's are SUPER CHEAP right now
Translation: Poor resale value
Some people seem confused and think people are switching because of gas costs.
But that's not t at all. The reason people are switching back is because most hybrid cars are absolute wimps in acceleration - which is madness if you consider they COULD be very powerful. But to conserve the (already very low) battery life, they have fairly poor acceleration. People get tired of that after a few years, and want a car with more energy.
It could very well also be the space too, as most hybrids I found had very poor interior space. There's a lot taken up by the battery and also the need for super-aerodynmic shapes that limits interior space.
An SUV fixes both problems...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
And just in case anyone wants to claim "the plural of anecdote is not data", Consumer Reports also has aggregate failure rates by model year for the Prius. The battery failure rate of the Prius takes 12 years to hit 5%. The longevity of those batteries is far beyond debate at this point.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/02/honda-civic-hybrid-battery-reliability-gets-worse/index.htm
Increase gas/diesel tax by .25 / year for the next 4 years and apply that to our roads and infrastructure.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Greater regulation is futile, as we have already reached the point where backyard mechanics (soon to be supported by 3d printing) simply convert PC vehicles to functional vehicles. And restore old vehicles to like-new condition with home-brew parts.
The two primary obstructions facing EV adoption are range (battery capacity) and charge time. Until an EV with a payload comparable to that of an Internal Combustion driven vehicle of the same class can be economically produced at a comparable price, with a 300 mi range and a charging time of under 15 minutes for a full charge (that has sufficient safety features to lower the user risk to that comparable with fueling an IC vehicle) the EV (and to a lesser extent, the hybrid) will continue to fail with the consumer - even the "bleeding edge" consumer, excepting the "true believers."
The average consumer is functionally oriented, not "save the world" oriented. They want a truck or SUV that'll haul the kids or a dozen sheets of plywood. They want to be able to get to Granny's house without a 3-4hr charging stop (a 10 minute fuel stop is far less offensive). They are not thrilled with dropping 10k or so on a new battery pack every couple of years when a gas tank effectively lasts longer than the vehicle operator.
And then we look at commercial use - outside of urban or semi-urban areas, your ranchers/truckers/farmers/geologists/etc are - if anything - even more functionally oriented - and losses of time and dependability swiftly translate into thinner or non-existent profit margins. Selling a vehicle of less range, more down time (charging), greater fragility (current state of the art) at greater expense than a comparable IC vehicle is, to put it mildly, a bit of a challenge.
How do I know? I used to work sales at an EV dealership....
And CV joints, batteries, electrical systems, power steering, ABS, Traction control and all the other systems a traditional car has.
All an EV does is replace the engine and gearbox which in time will have their own issues, entropy will have it's way with it just like everything else.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Electric cars have limited range and some have problems in cold weather.
I can easily see a lot of folks having tried it and then...ah well, it was a noble experiment.
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
here in Texas, having 300 miles of range (without running the AC) is going to be a problem for most people
They often drive for 4+ hours per day? That's gotta suck.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
So... when you have to relocate, how does it feel to have to ship your car across the country instead of driving it there?
It's not so bad. I paid $75 to rent a car carrier to tow behind the moving truck. Frankly, I'd have had to do the same if my car could drive that far, because we had three vehicles to move (including the moving truck) and only two drivers.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Tax the gas at a level that will pay for 100% of the cost of maintaining the roads, instead of the current level of 50% here in the states.
There's only one kind.
Wow!
People buying more gas guzzlers says gas guzzler selling platform ..
Texas is a big place. If you want to go practically anywhere out of your town and back again in the same day, it will take you a lot longer than four hours.
Where I live, it takes me an hour and change just to drive to some decent shopping, let alone to drive around and get some stuff done.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
And, since there is no global warming cost to the SUV over an alternative-fuel vehicle, the break-even time is the only cost calculation anyone should ever bother doing.
Texas is a big place. If you want to go practically anywhere out of your town and back again in the same day, it will take you a lot longer than four hours.
Sure. The same is true in many places in the western US, and some much more so than Texas. But if that's your normal driving routine, that sucks, and not being able to use an EV is the least of your problems. Unless you're a professional driver, that is. In that case spending all day driving isn't a waste of time, it's a living.
For the vast majority of people in the US who own two or more vehicles, choosing an EV for one of them works very well. Whether or not it's more economical depends on many factors. I'll tell you, though, once you get used to the way an EV drives, it's hard to go back. When I bought mine, it made perfect sense financially. I moved and things changed so that it may no longer be such a great deal... but I really don't like it when I have to drive the ICEV.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Can somebody explain me why SUVs are so popular in the U.S.? Sure, space is abundant and fuel is cheap, but why does that compel people to buy ugly, uncomfortable and impractical vehicles?
Course if the price of batteries is also dropping over time due to cost saving from mass production, the cost of replacing that expensive battery will be lower in ten years than it is now.
Its a shame people only think of the cost of gas when considering an EV.
Maintenance costs on EVs are dramatically lower than gas vehicles. No fluids, tune-ups and brakes last dramatically longer. For about 3% of the cost of the car, Tesla extend the warranty to 8 years - and that includes everything but tires. Factor in your time dealing with maintenance as well - that's a big cost if your time is valuable to you.
EVs are very convenient. Its takes 30 seconds to plug it in a few times a week when you park in your garage and you never have to visit a gas station again.
Gasoline is bad news in every way. Flammable, carcinogenic, poisonous and a train wreck for the environment is its production and use.
Greed is the root of all evil.
My Mariner hybrid SUV gets between 32mpg and 27mpg depending on weather and driving habits - and its more than five years old.
If you need a gas car for long trips and an SUV to haul some stuff around with the seats down, smaller SUV hybrids can be a good compromise.
Greed is the root of all evil.
Tax gas and spend the proceeds on whatever the hell you like.
or
Tax gas and spend the proceeds on "green" R&D. Wait a while. Pass a bill to spend it however you please. Preferably by shuffling money to corporations, who will in turn shuffle money to you via contributions to help you get re-elected again.
This is primarily the problem I have with this sort of tax to fund ideas. Look at history, it's not good. Pensions/Welfare/Infrastructure/etc...
I like the idea of a gas tax to fund say road infrastructure, but it is too easily appropriated for other things. Hell, if all you do is tax gas for example and then subsidize oil companies, all you are doing is making oil more profitable.
FYI: Personal Attacks = Instant lose. +Logical Fallacy... Icing on the cake! Delicious! =D
Whatever captain failure
No problem, Major Butt-hurt!
Also, how am I captain failure? If anything, I'm Captain Success (Having the original post of 5/Informative while your first reply got -1/Flamebait... Just saying...
Since I work from Home I have a pickup. I bought an old 99 Dodge RAM 1500 Lariat Pickup 2x4 for 900 dollars. It has the 318 engine and I can drive around 5 or so people in it. Since I don't have to drive back and forth to work. Also most the time I ride one of my motorcycles when the weather is nice. A pickup is more practical and it seems the US automakers are getting out of the small pickup truck market. My pickup I use to pull a landscape trailer and I go out and cut down and collect wood because I burn wood to stay warm since oil is very expensive. I wouldn't have an SUV total waste of money.
Paul E. Bahre
By David Bowie: Fashion
Easy to do when you use sockpuppet accounts like failures like you always do
The 22% who traded in greener cars for SUVs are the same people who claim that because it may be snowing in the winter means there is no global warming. Idiots.
Gee. When the price of something changed, people changed how much of it they bought. They bought less of it when it was more expensive.
I wonder if any Californians have heard of this sort of thing?
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.