I want to help you. I'm going home now, and tomorrow in the morning, I will check my e-mail again. I'm not from India, but I don't want people to be "bitten" by bad outsourcing experiences, as it hurts *my* business too.
each eng here will survive with the same salary as in India? I think not. The manager will get 50,000 $ in bonuses, and the VP the other 150,000 $. everyone wins, if by everyone you mean the PHB and the VP. ah, and the stockholders won't see a dime, too.
Hey, if you are an online gambling site your upstream router should be only routing 80:TCP packets to you, killing any non-trackable (SYN flood, ACK spoof) packets; all of this BEFORE they even enter your T3 or whatever.
It's your solution #2, but any good upstream ISP will deal with you.
Ten years ago I bought an HP500C printer to my wife. At the time she was still my gf, and I purchased it to her because she was taking office as a District Attorney. Since then, she is printing 40 or more pages every work day. And the printer is still in pristine conditions.
Ten years ago, I bought my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time and just taking office as a DA, an HP500C. It spits 40 pages of text every single work day. It works flawlessy ever since. NEVER went to fix anything. I took a look in the insides (w/o dismantling) last time I was at the office, and there were no wear and tear that I could see. Not even the ribbons were worn out. I am still impressed with this, and I suppose it will continue to work for ten more years.
Our military police is called military not because it is armed (civil police is armed too), not because it is an "armed force" (military polices are incorporated state-wide, not country-wide and they do not have armed force status, their heads do not make part of any Major State as the Army, Air Force and Navy do) but because of its command structure and the status of its men as military personell (some priviledges, low salaries, lots of things that are not criminalized to a civilian are to a military person.)
At least does not mix them up with the United Statians of Mexico, for instance.
Now, seriously: this is an artificial barrier to imports, something only states had the power to do until the DVD-region crap. Simple solution? Support legalizing breaking such barriers (DeCSS for instance). Support any firm that breaks Region-encoded cartridges. Europeans should import printers from the USofA via other means (not buying from HP Europe), so their cheaper US cartdriges will stay working. Sue HP for this. etc. etc. etc. Even down here there are lots of good consumer laws. Use them.
I do have a pocket watch of 1883 and it works perfectly, with all original pristine parts. It's all a question of making things to endure, and not to be thrown away at the first opportunity.
would not be the weight of the fuel, it would be the weight of the books and VCDs we would have to pack...:-) ITOH, we could do a lot of follies during the trip.
Or... can you imagine the practical joke value of erasing/hiding all titles in the video/text library of the ship?
if not an "army force dedicated to civil troubles and criminal investigation"?
Down here we do have a lot of different police forces:
Each city can have its "city guard"... they must only guard the City's property.
Each state has up to three police forces: "military police" (they do rounds and prevent crime... they are called "military" because they have a military-like organization), "civil (or judiciary) police" (they investigate crimes) and "military fire corps" (they fight fires and do other disaster reliefs).
The Union has: the Federal Police (to investigate federal crimes... mostly border issues, federal government corruption, and drugs), the Army Police, the Air Force Police and the Navy Police. Our Marine corps exists but is just a part of our Navy corps.
You know, if you bash the queen, the next premier (this one is a friend) and the royal family enough in the media, you can even quote "the horrible things the royal family made to stay in power in the last 400? years"... hehehe. and voila, let's invade GB, they have WMDs, they have an evil secret police they use to crush the freedom fighters in Northern Ireland. Next, US invades Ireland too, for harbouring freedom fighters... errm terrorists.
You see, I myself don't feel a lot safe, because the US government/media sees our president as a drinking communist who is building nukes, too, even if it's all far from the truth.
The Bible was written by the hand of Yhvh himself. He does not make mistakes. Now step out of the building and await calmly the lightning bolt. Have a nice eternity.
A. IRT number of available developers; I addressed this in my metro area. I suppose that if I lived and had a similar carreer in Detroit metro area, things would be similar. Obviously I was talking about people with 3 or 4 years of developing in python... and people capable of "getting into speed" when needed (p.ex., people with 4-5 years developing Java apps, that are versed in other languages too... most project teams can be composed with 30-40% of the developers in this category)
B. IRT 100% free software and practical considerations; well, if you believe -- and I do -- that proprietary software is unethical, then you don't really have a lot of choice, do you? Now, as you seem not to be ethically bothered with proprietary software, then this is a moot point to discuss. But you are right that C, C++, Perl and Python (and Lisp -- but Lisp is to be used only in special cases) are the only 100% FS tools we have today.
C. I agree a C system would be a monster; $DEITY knows I have worked with a 100KLOC inventory and sales system. Now, there is no reason but bad engineering and/or bad management if a similar system in Perl or C++ become a monster -- both are languages capable of building enormous systems without deviating too much from what a similar Java system would be. AND it's difficult at least IMHO to build a mess in Python.
D. I think you aren't being rational if you think you can take on development projects of large scope and get them done in the time constraints by telling half a dozen people to go read some PDFs and FAQs and then start coding. I agree -- I would be rather irrational if I ever said that, which I didn't. What I did say in (#11292769) below was: I can do your example project with this constraints within the boundaries of my geographic area with two high skilled Python devs, one medium skilled, and one who do not work nowadays with python but is capable of getting up to speed.
E. I just don't think Python is that platform at this time, for all of the reasons I've stated You asked for someone to prove you reasonably is wrong and you said that for all the reasons you stated, and this is what I am arguing: with the mentioned developers, you deadline of 2 years and estimated size of 8 man-years, in python, your project is feasible because (1) there are good developers to get from developer pool -- I can get them, and I suppose you could too, (b) the tool works without significant difference from Java -- that is where you would be aiming for reference, (3) if the "manager mind" is the significant fact, remember the PHB in case that Sun can pull the plug in the developer tools, and with Free Software you always have choice of support etc.
F. I don't understand your comments about IDEs I'll explain myself. I was giving a PHB once exactly the same arguments I gave you, and he asked me: but my developers will need an IDE, some sort of tools to refactor code, extract statistics, unit test, etc. So I said: fear no more, my friend. Python has all of those and some others. Got it?
As a shareholder of Sun I feel like I should say something. You talk about Sun, like other talk about microsoft, like is some huge control freak of a company. Sorry to say that it isn't. I am not an expert on marketing, or any of that crap. But it seems that companies like Sun, and microsoft are getting crap that just isnt there fault. Java is a good programming language. And any control that they have was given to them, by the public. We build these companies up. So we gave them teh control. They are just trying to run a company as best they can
The best they can do, in the case of Java, in my Humble Opinion, is to GPL, LGPL, or BSDL the JVM and maybe regulate quality by means of using the Java trademark. Why? Because then Java will become Free Software with all the goodies that it represents and with all the goodwill of a real community, etc. No Free Software developer would have to fear the comes and goes of the market, because they would have a non-rescindable-at-will license to the code and the ability to fork if needed. Now, if you agreed with me, you can raise the subject in the next shareholders assembly.
I welcome a reasonable case proving I'm wrong. Claiming I'm wrong just because you happen to be good friends with half a dozen people who are Perl/Python/Ruby or C/C++ gods doesn't prove your case, though, because I'm talking about being able to find the people needed through a normal hiring process. That means geographic location, skills, quantity, etc.
Ok. My point. In my 3million people city, there are at most 10000 good developers and I'm acquainted with circa 2000 of them, having headhunted around a lot etc (*), distributed:
Capable of picking up python enough to be codemonkeys: 300 more.
You know, obviously, why the numbers do not add up.
(*) I was a PHB for a period of 4 years, and I did a lot of headhunting. I also maintained good relations with a lot of people in a lot of different levels at college. I know what I'm talking about, if we are talking about my specific geographic area.
Python is what I would recommend if you asked (and paid) me.
Let's see your requirements:
-build once: ok?; -install: you can make an executable with everything needed, will install nicely;
small developer pool? I don't think so. lots of documentation around.
developing facilities? hmm... lots of Good and Very Good IDEs (DrPython, Eclipse, KDevelop and Komodo come to mind), unit testing, practically everything Java has in better packaging.
Mono/Gtk# is another alternative only if you don't have Win98 clients (does not work smoothly).
Where did you get the "developer pool size" you mention? I would agree there are more VB developers than cockroaches in the planet, but Python as small base strikes me as very odd.
Slashdot Mirror
Neither you nor the guy in #11453924 above uncommented the universe/multiverse lines in sources.list.
I want to help you. I'm going home now, and tomorrow in the morning, I will check my e-mail again. I'm not from India, but I don't want people to be "bitten" by bad outsourcing experiences, as it hurts *my* business too.
300,000 $ = 100 engineers. 1 engineer = 3,000 $
100,000 $ = 100 india engs. 1 ie = 1,000 $
200,000 $ = 200 engineers. 1 eng = 1,000 $
each eng here will survive with the same salary as in India? I think not. The manager will get 50,000 $ in bonuses, and the VP the other 150,000 $. everyone wins, if by everyone you mean the PHB and the VP. ah, and the stockholders won't see a dime, too.
I tought my country was different of the rest of the world (50Hz) by using 60Hz.
What countries use other AC frequencies?
Hey, if you are an online gambling site your upstream router should be only routing 80:TCP packets to you, killing any non-trackable (SYN flood, ACK spoof) packets; all of this BEFORE they even enter your T3 or whatever.
It's your solution #2, but any good upstream ISP will deal with you.
I suppose the phrasing was terrible...
Ten years ago I bought an HP500C printer to my wife.
At the time she was still my gf, and I purchased it to her because she was taking office as a District Attorney.
Since then, she is printing 40 or more pages every work day.
And the printer is still in pristine conditions.
Oh my $DEITY.
Ten years ago, I bought my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time and just taking office as a DA, an HP500C. It spits 40 pages of text every single work day. It works flawlessy ever since. NEVER went to fix anything. I took a look in the insides (w/o dismantling) last time I was at the office, and there were no wear and tear that I could see. Not even the ribbons were worn out. I am still impressed with this, and I suppose it will continue to work for ten more years.
Our military police is called military not because it is armed (civil police is armed too), not because it is an "armed force" (military polices are incorporated state-wide, not country-wide and they do not have armed force status, their heads do not make part of any Major State as the Army, Air Force and Navy do) but because of its command structure and the status of its men as military personell (some priviledges, low salaries, lots of things that are not criminalized to a civilian are to a military person.)
At least does not mix them up with the United Statians of Mexico, for instance.
Now, seriously: this is an artificial barrier to imports, something only states had the power to do until the DVD-region crap. Simple solution? Support legalizing breaking such barriers (DeCSS for instance). Support any firm that breaks Region-encoded cartridges. Europeans should import printers from the USofA via other means (not buying from HP Europe), so their cheaper US cartdriges will stay working. Sue HP for this. etc. etc. etc. Even down here there are lots of good consumer laws. Use them.
Not to mention, my friend, that the dollar will not rise related to the Euro, ever...
Like putting a rubber sheet over your dick before making love? Man, this is a revolution! Let's go to the patent office NOW!
I do have a pocket watch of 1883 and it works perfectly, with all original pristine parts. It's all a question of making things to endure, and not to be thrown away at the first opportunity.
would not be the weight of the fuel, it would be the weight of the books and VCDs we would have to pack... :-) ITOH, we could do a lot of follies during the trip.
Or... can you imagine the practical joke value of erasing/hiding all titles in the video/text library of the ship?
I'm 34 and so much stuff pisses me off that I can barely cope.
Not because of change, but because of the amount the shit stays the same.
full of high-quality, low-pay tech people?
if not an "army force dedicated to civil troubles and criminal investigation"?
Down here we do have a lot of different police forces:
Each city can have its "city guard"... they must only guard the City's property.
Each state has up to three police forces: "military police" (they do rounds and prevent crime... they are called "military" because they have a military-like organization), "civil (or judiciary) police" (they investigate crimes) and "military fire corps" (they fight fires and do other disaster reliefs).
The Union has: the Federal Police (to investigate federal crimes... mostly border issues, federal government corruption, and drugs), the Army Police, the Air Force Police and the Navy Police. Our Marine corps exists but is just a part of our Navy corps.
It was really overhauled. From 1.2 to 2.0, from 2.0 to 2.2, from 2.2 to 2.4 and from 2.4 to 2.6. That's the odd/even thing.
I separated the two paragraphs. para one, I was talking about GB. para two, I was talking about my country.
1 and 2: connection tracking
3: throttling.
simple, uh?
You know, if you bash the queen, the next premier (this one is a friend) and the royal family enough in the media, you can even quote "the horrible things the royal family made to stay in power in the last 400? years"... hehehe. and voila, let's invade GB, they have WMDs, they have an evil secret police they use to crush the freedom fighters in Northern Ireland. Next, US invades Ireland too, for harbouring freedom fighters... errm terrorists.
You see, I myself don't feel a lot safe, because the US government/media sees our president as a drinking communist who is building nukes, too, even if it's all far from the truth.
The Bible was written by the hand of Yhvh himself. He does not make mistakes. Now step out of the building and await calmly the lightning bolt. Have a nice eternity.
A. IRT number of available developers; I addressed this in my metro area. I suppose that if I lived and had a similar carreer in Detroit metro area, things would be similar. Obviously I was talking about people with 3 or 4 years of developing in python... and people capable of "getting into speed" when needed (p.ex., people with 4-5 years developing Java apps, that are
versed in other languages too... most project teams can be composed with 30-40% of the developers in this category)
B. IRT 100% free software and practical considerations; well, if you believe -- and I do -- that proprietary software is unethical, then you don't really have a lot of choice, do you? Now, as you seem not to be ethically bothered with proprietary software, then this is a moot point to discuss. But you are right that C, C++, Perl and Python (and Lisp -- but Lisp is to be used only in special cases) are the only 100% FS tools we have today.
C. I agree a C system would be a monster; $DEITY knows I have worked with a 100KLOC inventory and sales system. Now, there is no reason but bad engineering and/or bad management if a similar system in Perl or C++ become a monster -- both are languages capable of building enormous systems without deviating too much from what a similar Java system would be. AND it's difficult at least IMHO to build a mess in Python.
D. I think you aren't being rational if you think you can take on development projects of large scope and get them done in the time constraints by telling half a dozen people to go read some PDFs and FAQs and then start coding. I agree -- I would be rather irrational if I ever said that, which I didn't. What I did say in (#11292769) below was: I can do your example project with this constraints within the boundaries of my geographic area with two high skilled Python devs, one medium skilled, and one who do not work nowadays with python but is capable of getting up to speed.
E. I just don't think Python is that platform at this time, for all of the reasons I've stated You asked for someone to prove you reasonably is wrong and you said that for all the reasons you stated, and this is what I am arguing: with the mentioned developers, you deadline of 2 years and estimated size of 8 man-years, in python, your project is feasible because (1) there are good developers to get from developer pool -- I can get them, and I suppose you could too, (b) the tool works without significant difference from Java -- that is where you would be aiming for reference, (3) if the "manager mind" is the significant fact, remember the PHB in case that Sun can pull the plug in the developer tools, and with Free Software you always have choice of support etc.
F. I don't understand your comments about IDEs I'll explain myself. I was giving a PHB once exactly the same arguments I gave you, and he asked me: but my developers will need an IDE, some sort of tools to refactor code, extract statistics, unit test, etc. So I said: fear no more, my friend. Python has all of those and some others. Got it?
The best they can do, in the case of Java, in my Humble Opinion, is to GPL, LGPL, or BSDL the JVM and maybe regulate quality by means of using the Java trademark.
Why? Because then Java will become Free Software with all the goodies that it represents and with all the goodwill of a real community, etc. No Free Software developer would have to fear the comes and goes of the market, because they would have a non-rescindable-at-will license to the code and the ability to fork if needed.
Now, if you agreed with me, you can raise the subject in the next shareholders assembly.
Ok. My point. In my 3million people city, there are at most 10000 good developers and I'm acquainted with circa 2000 of them, having headhunted around a lot etc (*), distributed:
Delphi 1200
VB 700
Java 700
C/C++ 600
Python 600
Perl 100
Capable of picking up python enough to be codemonkeys: 300 more.
You know, obviously, why the numbers do not add up.
(*) I was a PHB for a period of 4 years, and I did a lot of headhunting. I also maintained good relations with a lot of people in a lot of different levels at college. I know what I'm talking about, if we are talking about my specific geographic area.
Python is what I would recommend if you asked (and paid) me.
Let's see your requirements:
-build once: ok?;
-install: you can make an executable with everything needed, will install nicely;
small developer pool? I don't think so. lots of documentation around.
developing facilities? hmm... lots of Good and Very Good IDEs (DrPython, Eclipse, KDevelop and Komodo come to mind), unit testing, practically everything Java has in better packaging.
Mono/Gtk# is another alternative only if you don't have Win98 clients (does not work smoothly).
Where did you get the "developer pool size" you mention? I would agree there are more VB developers than cockroaches in the planet, but Python as small base strikes me as very odd.
No offense was meant.