My favorite set of interactions was in third year - right before the heritage students all dropped out - when we had debates. The heritage students were far more fluent... but had lousy logic skills and their arguments tended to be along the lines of "I'm against abortion... because it's wrong! Because god said so!" The non heritage students might have been stumbling a little more in speech, but we cared! And we knew our subjects! And we were tenacious! And all of the shyness that was the biggest barrier or improving our verbal skills fell away, because we were not going to lose the damn argument.
Every week.
(If there's one thing I could tell my younger self, it would be to work on losing the shyness earlier. Doing Taiji and gossiping in Chinese every morning with an elderly Chinese gentleman at my old apartment building was the best thing that ever happened to my speaking skills. Hanging out with bored senior citizens would be right up there as well.)
I guess to be fair, I should fess up that I took my first year as an eight week summer intensive, and while there may have been a few people there with some marginal background, we were all pretty swamped.
I realize this might be hard to follow, but there are in fact multiple links, not a single article. And, in fact, you are conflating two different programs, one aimed at college level courses, and another aimed at high school teachers.
Again, my background wasn't in CS (nor in Neurbiology, my current field, or anything even close) but in my experience this approach will get you far. There may be times when you want a laid back review - otherwise, why waste your time and money? Push yourself, take a more challenging course, and get more out of it. I got into all kinds of courses without the pre-reqs, just by speaking to the instructors ahead of time and convincing them I'd be okay. Similarly, I convinced my department to let me substitute interesting upper level classes for boring lower level requirements in a number of cases. And had a much more interesting education because of it.
The idea of whining because you can't get into an introductory class because you already know much of the material strikes me as pretty silly - sheesh, breeze through the online class and go and do something more productive with your time.
The amount of furor in the comment along the lines of "Oh noes, people who don't already know how to code won't be given the traditional beatdown!" is kind of horrifying. Yeesh. Having a beginning class that's for actual beginners sounds like an awesome idea. Let the folks with some background test out, or if they're not quite ready to do that, put them in something like an online course where they can fill in the gaps at their own pace.
Ideally, having some kind of acclerated intro (maybe two semesters crammed into one?) for folks with some background might be a great alternative if you have the time and faculty. The impression I get is that they don't. It also might be useful to train profs on how to manage students who are being assholes to their classmates - but seriously, CS profs who are already overcommitted? I can at least see why this is not the route they're going.
Of course, since they're talking about sorting people on the basis of being CS knowledge, not skin color, what you're saying doesn't really make sense. A dirt poor white male who doesn't have a CS background gets in - whereas a hispanic girl who's been winning hackathons through highschool doesn't. Sure, there will be more white and asian males who don't get in, but it's not about race or gender.
The introductory classes end up being for actual beginners. Is that really so terrifying?
"There were plenty of people who go Comp-Sci degrees in the late 90s who had very little interest in computers and programing."
Ye gods, yes. I thought of them as the crowd who in most times would have been PoliSci majors as pre-law. One could have an interesting discussion about whether they lacked interest or programmer disposition, but yeesh, yes, whatever it was, they didn't have it.
As an aside, whether intro classes are used as weeder classes depends on the college and on the discipline (though I suppose CS is implied here.) In many of places they are more annoying and uninspiring than actually difficult because they are unpopular with the faculty. (Whereas one of my research students has been doing really ridiculous amounts of homework for discrete math, say. It's kind of adorable, even if it cuts into his lab time.)
And it just makes for a miserable experience for everyone.
When I took Chinese,* 80% of the class spoke some dialect of Chinese at home, and were there to a) learn Mandarin b) learn to read and write c) get an easy language credit. Okay, I'm enough of a masochist that I kind of enjoyed the challenge of trying to keep up in this environment as someone who came in speaking no Chinese at all, but it could be pretty depressing, and for someone with a less twisted disposition than I it would probably have been pretty awful. (These days they separate out heritage and non heritage students. Because, y'know, people who don't speak the language maybe need their own class.)
* I've spent more time teaching coding than taking CS classes. *shrug* Partly because I grew up with it - dad was a CS prof - partly because my school was still making Ada a prerequisite for everything and hell no. I've made some effort to fill in the gaps, but hey, I'm mostly a hacker.
I don't really know if there's much point in trying to reply to this, but I'm going to try to, anyway.
Rosalind Franklin is a figure that an awful lot of people, especially scientists (and especially, but certainly not only, women) feel pretty strongly about. She did extremely good work, and managed to work in the field at a time when it was socially quite difficult to be a working scientist as a woman. She played a pivotal role in our understanding of DNA, and meanwhile, the best known account of her, from a professional colleague says stuff like this:
I suspect that in the beginning Maurice hoped that Rosy would calm down. Yet mere inspection suggested that she would not easily bend. By choice she did not emphasize her feminine qualities. Though her features were strong, she was not unattractive and might have been quite stunning had she taken even a mild interest in clothes. This she did not. There was never lipstick to contrast with her straight black hair, while at the age of thirty-one her dresses showed all the imagination of English blue-stocking adolescents. So it was quite easy to imagine her the product of an unsatisfied mother who unduly stressed the desirability of professional careers that could save bright girls from marriages to dull men.
...strangely, he never brings that kind of focus to the appearance of any of his male colleagues. (Nor does he give them spurious nicknames or otherwise belittle them. Or expect somehow that they would "bend" rather than behave as peers. Though there does seem to have been some poor communication on behalf of the department head that set up some of this conflict.) Keep in mind, this isn't his diary or anything that was quoted out of context, this is from a book that he published.
Meanwhile, her data was taken from her, without her permission, and shown to people, one of whom would eventually describe her that way after her death and was one of those who eventually got the Nobel prize. So, yeah, a lot of people think Watson owes her, and a lot of people think she still deserves more recognition.
Watson has a pretty long history of mouthing off in public. His comments about Africans and IQ are only the latest of many (this is fairly well documented on internet, and from a certain standpoint, especially taken as a collection, somewhat amusing. If you have a dark sense of humor.) But a lot of the eye-rolling in the scientific community rests first on the misappropriation Franklin's data - and then, if perhaps to a lesser extent, following up that scientific malfeasance with writing such a sexist smear of her. It's not that uncommon, though unfortunately, for famous scientists to mouth off in public, especially outside of their area of expertise. But you don't fuck with someone else's data.
Are you even familiar with what we're referring to?
He used Franklin's data, obtained via underhanded means, without her permission, and then smeared her in his book, The Double Helix, after her death. (The controversies referred to above, while particularly outré, are hardly the first that Watson has engaged in.)
(It's fairly likely she would have shared the Nobel, but it is not granted posthumously.)
Oh, come on, the Qin emperor, bless his tiny meglomaniacal heart managed at least two successful ones. His standardization of the written system and massive book burning were both hugely effective and influential to this day. (One could probably make some kind of argument around the great wall for a third, though casting something which was a massive defense project AND a means of disposing of malcontents as cultural engineering would at least take effort.)
The recent standardization of the spoken language is young enough that the jury is still out, but it switch to mandarin has been pretty startlingly large even just in my lifetime, and it's huge even in the overseas communities. I've watched Seattle's Chinatown go from being primarily Taihanese and Cantonese to mandarin overwhelmingly dominating. Which is handy for me - I speak mandarin - but... weird.* Especially with the influx of new people and new money. And a lot of the families that have been in the area for generations and speak Cantonese at home are choosing to send their kids to school to learn Mandarin because they see it as advantageous for business. And, of course, you have the recent reworking of the written system, which is also huge, and incredible influential. (And a pain in the ass when you essentially have to learn them both, but I digress.)
Or... what about the end of foot binding? Because, seriously, it's gone.
Puns, though... yeah, I just can't see that happening. Far too much a part of the languaguage and culture. Far too commonly used in protest - and frequently anonymous protest. I'm remembering the little bottles in '78, when people were calling for Deng XiaoPing to return... (XiaoPing is a homophone for "little bottle.")
* Much of this is me being grumpy. There are places I've been going since I was five that aren't there any more. And the new places don't make pineapple custard buns as well. I have a pretty long list of new places I'm entirely in favor of.
The paper is about the use of the flip graphical language and their experiences with it as a teaching tool. The gender findings are just mentioned by the by, and have been seized upon by the popular press. (For obvious reasons. Certainly no made less obvious by the super defensive "But that certainly must not be true!" response from so many people here. Oh,/.)
Mind you, the primary issue isn't one of sample size (though yeah, ideally more would be a plan) but selection, and it appears that the difference between the two groups is pretty large in that class. The problem is that it is a class, which makes it a seriously non-random population. Not a big thing when the point of the paper is "We built this cool teaching tool, and this is our experience using our teaching tool," but if you wanted to make a more general statement about learning, you would want a differently chosen population.
Or a number of different classes, which doesn't sidestep all of the problems, but is a lot easier to implement.
The problem of course comes not when you download it, but when it's placed on a/. server so that people can dowload it from there, rather than from the WaPo site. This is, like, remedial piracy.
I was pretty appalled that he grabbed me - even in terms of Cleveland, where* having random construction workers call out to bring my ass over there so they can stick their dick in it** - campus was usually free from the overtly obnoxious crap. I didn't perceive it as particularly physically threatening, but many, perhaps most women might have.
Getting police involved? It really didn't occur to me, and I wonder if I'd be taken seriously - he grabbed my arm, I shook him off and was clearly really mad, he backed the hell away. OTOH, philosophically, if someone, say, tried to attack me on the street I would call the police even were I easily able to resolve the issue without injury to myself - I don't think being a martial artist means that it's okay to attack me, and I don't think me having humiliated an attacker means that they shouldn't then have to deal with the police. But in this case, even if it had occurred to me, my gut sense is that I wouldn't have been taken seriously. Escalating it through the university would have been another matter though... ugh. That just sounds like such a probable clusterfuck.
If someone groped me at a conference, even one which I was attending on my own time, yes, I would report it, both to the conference staff and the local police. And frankly I would be prepared for it to blow up in my face. Because I am a woman in tech, and that happens a reasonable proportion of the time. (And while I wince to think of some of the crap I've taken - or, rather, slapped down but not reported - I also know it's partly because as a woman, getting a reputation as someone who calls harassment is career poison.)
If someone groped me in a purely social setting, I'd consult my hosts, first. Depending on the circumstances, having the offending party thrown out of the event with prejudice might be a satisfactory option,*** and inviting the police to a party in progress might be more trouble than it's worth.
* Well, when I still had hair - when I arrive I had hip length hair, though it was always either tied up or braided back. For a number of reasons I ended up trimming my hair down to a couple of mm, which has cut down on the catcalling a lot. ** Seattle so very much did not prepare me for this. *** This is a pretty well established option, too.
The professional colleague? I broke his hold - more or less reflexively, and stingingly - and wondered whether I needed to introduce his face to a nearby wall. Not that I said anything, and I doubt he had the background to really read the stance change, but he clearly got the "that was a really terrible idea" and backed off. It honestly didn't occur to me to press charges.* He's in a different department, and so he's not someone I have to deal with on a regular basis, which helps. (This was just a couple of years ago. Though I think he might have moved on, as I haven't seen him in a year or so.)
I wonder a bit more about the groping in social situations, to be honest. I mean, at the time - this was mostly a decade or more back** I had a fairly well established reputation as someone to treat with respect, and it was socially considered kind of funny that occasionally someone would push the line and I would firmly and somewhat painfully explain to him the error of his ways. It was downright hilarious that there was one guy who was such an idiot as to try it twice. This was back when I still worked in industry, and seriously, while I rarely dealt with coworkers with inappropriate touching issues, dealing with (mostly mild) inappropriate behavior from male coworkers was really common, I was good at it, and saw that kind of toughness as part of doing well as a woman in software - especially in a leadership role. (And yes, I'm skipping back and forth between social and work responses - but then, I worked a lot, most of my friends were also in software, and each response shaped the other.)
Now, looking at that all, I think my approach doesn't port and doesn't scale. I mean, I'm tall, muscular, socially confident, a trained martial artist***... and mostly what the more clueless guys seemed to get from our interactions was not to push the line *with me.* Most of my fellow geek women are smaller, shyer and not as well trained for these situations. (And less used to having to get into people's faces on a regular basis. One of the things I enjoy most about not being in software is that research gives me so much more room to be a nice person...)
Other than refusing to have anything to do with social contexts that don't throw folks out for that kind of behavior, though I'm not entirely certain what to do. I mean, when is it appropriate to press charges? When will you be taken seriously (considering how hard it is to get taken seriously for a rape charge much of the time "someone grabbed my tit at a party" seems like a non-starter). And, of course, there are all the semi-social things - say, geek conferences that one attends on one's own time.
BTW - on that whole "Men are expected to make the advances..." So, I know there's generally speaking an expectation there (and I know that a number of my female research students don't follow it). But personally, I've initiated the majority of relationships (and, for that matter, one night stands) I've been in. So it's really frustrating when I hear this kind of thing brought up in the context of bad male behavior (especially since considering my generally social affect it's hard to imagine anyone convincing themself I was playing the coquette).
* Okay, truth, I was more thinking of things like dislocating his elbow. And whether I was going to survive my time in Ohio, which has a lot more rampant street harassment, without doing someone serious bodily harm. And I don't tend to hurt people as a first response, and de-escalation is pretty deeply engrained, but yeesh - I mean, clearly I want people calling obscenities at me, I went out wearing my breasts. ** I don't get out much, between the research and martial arts, and most of the parties I do attend will throw people out for that kind of behavior and make sure they're never invited back. *** And I still run into some of this shit, and doesn't that say something right there?
Mostly, because there are exceptions. Guys who come up behind me, hug me and grab my breast? I put them in a joint lock right off.* Maybe it's the difference between harassment and assault.
* Though a male friend opines that if they did that to a guy, he'd most likely slug them in the jaw, so a joint lock that's only really painful if you're stupid enough to fight it while I explain that you don't touch me without asking first** might really count as one free try. ** Though I cut folks a lot more slack if it's not outright groping. Well, or trying to restrain me. (No, seriously, after turning down a professional colleague a few times, he came up and tried to chat me up, so I told him I didn't want to talk to him. Clear, simple direct. So he grabbed hold of my arm. Which was not only highly inappropriate, but he also knew that I'm a martial arts instructor, making it incredibly stupid.)
I wouldn't be surprised if many slashdotters who are women are avoiding reading the comments (a lot of the comments on posts having to do with gender dynamics have been awfully toxic recently) or are reluctant to post, but there are quite a few of us around, y'know?
I don't think applying the term "troll" to your second type is really that useful, especially since it tends to lead to people confusing it with the first type and discounting the problem.
Trolling is obnoxious, and different forums can have different ways of dealing with it - and there are and should be forums where it's just ignored and tolerated. (Because dealing with idiots is part of free and open communications. And going into walled gardens to get away from idiots is always an option.)
Stalking, harassment and threats are a bit more than that, and confusing the two does a disservice to both - but more importantly, to all of us.
Yeah, but that only applies if the images shown are the same - which they aren't. (And there's probably a particularly poor overlap between geek girls who are interested in games and folks buying Cosmo or whatever.)
I wonder about routes of exposure. I was going to write about how my best friend (also female) first got me into gaming via D&D - and then it occurred to me that no, really my first exposure was when my dad introduced me to Collosal Cave Adventure (which was right then bring the entire CS department to a screeching halt) when I was five. My later vectors were my aforementioned SF geek best friend and my hacking buddies.
Slashdot Mirror
My favorite set of interactions was in third year - right before the heritage students all dropped out - when we had debates. The heritage students were far more fluent... but had lousy logic skills and their arguments tended to be along the lines of "I'm against abortion... because it's wrong! Because god said so!" The non heritage students might have been stumbling a little more in speech, but we cared! And we knew our subjects! And we were tenacious! And all of the shyness that was the biggest barrier or improving our verbal skills fell away, because we were not going to lose the damn argument.
Every week.
(If there's one thing I could tell my younger self, it would be to work on losing the shyness earlier. Doing Taiji and gossiping in Chinese every morning with an elderly Chinese gentleman at my old apartment building was the best thing that ever happened to my speaking skills. Hanging out with bored senior citizens would be right up there as well.)
I guess to be fair, I should fess up that I took my first year as an eight week summer intensive, and while there may have been a few people there with some marginal background, we were all pretty swamped.
I realize this might be hard to follow, but there are in fact multiple links, not a single article. And, in fact, you are conflating two different programs, one aimed at college level courses, and another aimed at high school teachers.
Again, my background wasn't in CS (nor in Neurbiology, my current field, or anything even close) but in my experience this approach will get you far. There may be times when you want a laid back review - otherwise, why waste your time and money? Push yourself, take a more challenging course, and get more out of it. I got into all kinds of courses without the pre-reqs, just by speaking to the instructors ahead of time and convincing them I'd be okay. Similarly, I convinced my department to let me substitute interesting upper level classes for boring lower level requirements in a number of cases. And had a much more interesting education because of it.
The idea of whining because you can't get into an introductory class because you already know much of the material strikes me as pretty silly - sheesh, breeze through the online class and go and do something more productive with your time.
The amount of furor in the comment along the lines of "Oh noes, people who don't already know how to code won't be given the traditional beatdown!" is kind of horrifying. Yeesh. Having a beginning class that's for actual beginners sounds like an awesome idea. Let the folks with some background test out, or if they're not quite ready to do that, put them in something like an online course where they can fill in the gaps at their own pace.
Ideally, having some kind of acclerated intro (maybe two semesters crammed into one?) for folks with some background might be a great alternative if you have the time and faculty. The impression I get is that they don't. It also might be useful to train profs on how to manage students who are being assholes to their classmates - but seriously, CS profs who are already overcommitted? I can at least see why this is not the route they're going.
Of course, since they're talking about sorting people on the basis of being CS knowledge, not skin color, what you're saying doesn't really make sense. A dirt poor white male who doesn't have a CS background gets in - whereas a hispanic girl who's been winning hackathons through highschool doesn't. Sure, there will be more white and asian males who don't get in, but it's not about race or gender.
The introductory classes end up being for actual beginners. Is that really so terrifying?
"There were plenty of people who go Comp-Sci degrees in the late 90s who had very little interest in computers and programing."
Ye gods, yes. I thought of them as the crowd who in most times would have been PoliSci majors as pre-law. One could have an interesting discussion about whether they lacked interest or programmer disposition, but yeesh, yes, whatever it was, they didn't have it.
As an aside, whether intro classes are used as weeder classes depends on the college and on the discipline (though I suppose CS is implied here.) In many of places they are more annoying and uninspiring than actually difficult because they are unpopular with the faculty. (Whereas one of my research students has been doing really ridiculous amounts of homework for discrete math, say. It's kind of adorable, even if it cuts into his lab time.)
And it just makes for a miserable experience for everyone.
When I took Chinese,* 80% of the class spoke some dialect of Chinese at home, and were there to a) learn Mandarin b) learn to read and write c) get an easy language credit. Okay, I'm enough of a masochist that I kind of enjoyed the challenge of trying to keep up in this environment as someone who came in speaking no Chinese at all, but it could be pretty depressing, and for someone with a less twisted disposition than I it would probably have been pretty awful. (These days they separate out heritage and non heritage students. Because, y'know, people who don't speak the language maybe need their own class.)
* I've spent more time teaching coding than taking CS classes. *shrug* Partly because I grew up with it - dad was a CS prof - partly because my school was still making Ada a prerequisite for everything and hell no. I've made some effort to fill in the gaps, but hey, I'm mostly a hacker.
I don't really know if there's much point in trying to reply to this, but I'm going to try to, anyway.
Rosalind Franklin is a figure that an awful lot of people, especially scientists (and especially, but certainly not only, women) feel pretty strongly about. She did extremely good work, and managed to work in the field at a time when it was socially quite difficult to be a working scientist as a woman. She played a pivotal role in our understanding of DNA, and meanwhile, the best known account of her, from a professional colleague says stuff like this:
Meanwhile, her data was taken from her, without her permission, and shown to people, one of whom would eventually describe her that way after her death and was one of those who eventually got the Nobel prize. So, yeah, a lot of people think Watson owes her, and a lot of people think she still deserves more recognition.
Watson has a pretty long history of mouthing off in public. His comments about Africans and IQ are only the latest of many (this is fairly well documented on internet, and from a certain standpoint, especially taken as a collection, somewhat amusing. If you have a dark sense of humor.) But a lot of the eye-rolling in the scientific community rests first on the misappropriation Franklin's data - and then, if perhaps to a lesser extent, following up that scientific malfeasance with writing such a sexist smear of her. It's not that uncommon, though unfortunately, for famous scientists to mouth off in public, especially outside of their area of expertise. But you don't fuck with someone else's data.
Are you even familiar with what we're referring to?
He used Franklin's data, obtained via underhanded means, without her permission, and then smeared her in his book, The Double Helix, after her death. (The controversies referred to above, while particularly outré, are hardly the first that Watson has engaged in.)
(It's fairly likely she would have shared the Nobel, but it is not granted posthumously.)
Yes, if he's trying to finance his way into redemption, that at least would be a first stab at reparations. What a creep.
Oh, come on, the Qin emperor, bless his tiny meglomaniacal heart managed at least two successful ones. His standardization of the written system and massive book burning were both hugely effective and influential to this day. (One could probably make some kind of argument around the great wall for a third, though casting something which was a massive defense project AND a means of disposing of malcontents as cultural engineering would at least take effort.)
The recent standardization of the spoken language is young enough that the jury is still out, but it switch to mandarin has been pretty startlingly large even just in my lifetime, and it's huge even in the overseas communities. I've watched Seattle's Chinatown go from being primarily Taihanese and Cantonese to mandarin overwhelmingly dominating. Which is handy for me - I speak mandarin - but... weird.* Especially with the influx of new people and new money. And a lot of the families that have been in the area for generations and speak Cantonese at home are choosing to send their kids to school to learn Mandarin because they see it as advantageous for business. And, of course, you have the recent reworking of the written system, which is also huge, and incredible influential. (And a pain in the ass when you essentially have to learn them both, but I digress.)
Or... what about the end of foot binding? Because, seriously, it's gone.
Puns, though... yeah, I just can't see that happening. Far too much a part of the languaguage and culture. Far too commonly used in protest - and frequently anonymous protest. I'm remembering the little bottles in '78, when people were calling for Deng XiaoPing to return... (XiaoPing is a homophone for "little bottle.")
* Much of this is me being grumpy. There are places I've been going since I was five that aren't there any more. And the new places don't make pineapple custard buns as well. I have a pretty long list of new places I'm entirely in favor of.
The paper is about the use of the flip graphical language and their experiences with it as a teaching tool. The gender findings are just mentioned by the by, and have been seized upon by the popular press. (For obvious reasons. Certainly no made less obvious by the super defensive "But that certainly must not be true!" response from so many people here. Oh, /.)
Mind you, the primary issue isn't one of sample size (though yeah, ideally more would be a plan) but selection, and it appears that the difference between the two groups is pretty large in that class. The problem is that it is a class, which makes it a seriously non-random population. Not a big thing when the point of the paper is "We built this cool teaching tool, and this is our experience using our teaching tool," but if you wanted to make a more general statement about learning, you would want a differently chosen population.
Or a number of different classes, which doesn't sidestep all of the problems, but is a lot easier to implement.
The problem of course comes not when you download it, but when it's placed on a /. server so that people can dowload it from there, rather than from the WaPo site. This is, like, remedial piracy.
Providing a link to the review was genius.
I was pretty appalled that he grabbed me - even in terms of Cleveland, where* having random construction workers call out to bring my ass over there so they can stick their dick in it** - campus was usually free from the overtly obnoxious crap. I didn't perceive it as particularly physically threatening, but many, perhaps most women might have.
Getting police involved? It really didn't occur to me, and I wonder if I'd be taken seriously - he grabbed my arm, I shook him off and was clearly really mad, he backed the hell away. OTOH, philosophically, if someone, say, tried to attack me on the street I would call the police even were I easily able to resolve the issue without injury to myself - I don't think being a martial artist means that it's okay to attack me, and I don't think me having humiliated an attacker means that they shouldn't then have to deal with the police. But in this case, even if it had occurred to me, my gut sense is that I wouldn't have been taken seriously. Escalating it through the university would have been another matter though... ugh. That just sounds like such a probable clusterfuck.
If someone groped me at a conference, even one which I was attending on my own time, yes, I would report it, both to the conference staff and the local police. And frankly I would be prepared for it to blow up in my face. Because I am a woman in tech, and that happens a reasonable proportion of the time. (And while I wince to think of some of the crap I've taken - or, rather, slapped down but not reported - I also know it's partly because as a woman, getting a reputation as someone who calls harassment is career poison.)
If someone groped me in a purely social setting, I'd consult my hosts, first. Depending on the circumstances, having the offending party thrown out of the event with prejudice might be a satisfactory option,*** and inviting the police to a party in progress might be more trouble than it's worth.
* Well, when I still had hair - when I arrive I had hip length hair, though it was always either tied up or braided back. For a number of reasons I ended up trimming my hair down to a couple of mm, which has cut down on the catcalling a lot.
** Seattle so very much did not prepare me for this.
*** This is a pretty well established option, too.
The professional colleague? I broke his hold - more or less reflexively, and stingingly - and wondered whether I needed to introduce his face to a nearby wall. Not that I said anything, and I doubt he had the background to really read the stance change, but he clearly got the "that was a really terrible idea" and backed off. It honestly didn't occur to me to press charges.* He's in a different department, and so he's not someone I have to deal with on a regular basis, which helps. (This was just a couple of years ago. Though I think he might have moved on, as I haven't seen him in a year or so.)
I wonder a bit more about the groping in social situations, to be honest. I mean, at the time - this was mostly a decade or more back** I had a fairly well established reputation as someone to treat with respect, and it was socially considered kind of funny that occasionally someone would push the line and I would firmly and somewhat painfully explain to him the error of his ways. It was downright hilarious that there was one guy who was such an idiot as to try it twice. This was back when I still worked in industry, and seriously, while I rarely dealt with coworkers with inappropriate touching issues, dealing with (mostly mild) inappropriate behavior from male coworkers was really common, I was good at it, and saw that kind of toughness as part of doing well as a woman in software - especially in a leadership role. (And yes, I'm skipping back and forth between social and work responses - but then, I worked a lot, most of my friends were also in software, and each response shaped the other.)
Now, looking at that all, I think my approach doesn't port and doesn't scale. I mean, I'm tall, muscular, socially confident, a trained martial artist***... and mostly what the more clueless guys seemed to get from our interactions was not to push the line *with me.* Most of my fellow geek women are smaller, shyer and not as well trained for these situations. (And less used to having to get into people's faces on a regular basis. One of the things I enjoy most about not being in software is that research gives me so much more room to be a nice person...)
Other than refusing to have anything to do with social contexts that don't throw folks out for that kind of behavior, though I'm not entirely certain what to do. I mean, when is it appropriate to press charges? When will you be taken seriously (considering how hard it is to get taken seriously for a rape charge much of the time "someone grabbed my tit at a party" seems like a non-starter). And, of course, there are all the semi-social things - say, geek conferences that one attends on one's own time.
BTW - on that whole "Men are expected to make the advances..." So, I know there's generally speaking an expectation there (and I know that a number of my female research students don't follow it). But personally, I've initiated the majority of relationships (and, for that matter, one night stands) I've been in. So it's really frustrating when I hear this kind of thing brought up in the context of bad male behavior (especially since considering my generally social affect it's hard to imagine anyone convincing themself I was playing the coquette).
* Okay, truth, I was more thinking of things like dislocating his elbow. And whether I was going to survive my time in Ohio, which has a lot more rampant street harassment, without doing someone serious bodily harm. And I don't tend to hurt people as a first response, and de-escalation is pretty deeply engrained, but yeesh - I mean, clearly I want people calling obscenities at me, I went out wearing my breasts.
** I don't get out much, between the research and martial arts, and most of the parties I do attend will throw people out for that kind of behavior and make sure they're never invited back.
*** And I still run into some of this shit, and doesn't that say something right there?
Now doesn't that just take me back...
That's mostly the one I work with.
Mostly, because there are exceptions. Guys who come up behind me, hug me and grab my breast? I put them in a joint lock right off.* Maybe it's the difference between harassment and assault.
* Though a male friend opines that if they did that to a guy, he'd most likely slug them in the jaw, so a joint lock that's only really painful if you're stupid enough to fight it while I explain that you don't touch me without asking first** might really count as one free try.
** Though I cut folks a lot more slack if it's not outright groping. Well, or trying to restrain me. (No, seriously, after turning down a professional colleague a few times, he came up and tried to chat me up, so I told him I didn't want to talk to him. Clear, simple direct. So he grabbed hold of my arm. Which was not only highly inappropriate, but he also knew that I'm a martial arts instructor, making it incredibly stupid.)
I wouldn't be surprised if many slashdotters who are women are avoiding reading the comments (a lot of the comments on posts having to do with gender dynamics have been awfully toxic recently) or are reluctant to post, but there are quite a few of us around, y'know?
I don't think applying the term "troll" to your second type is really that useful, especially since it tends to lead to people confusing it with the first type and discounting the problem.
Hear, hear.
Trolling is obnoxious, and different forums can have different ways of dealing with it - and there are and should be forums where it's just ignored and tolerated. (Because dealing with idiots is part of free and open communications. And going into walled gardens to get away from idiots is always an option.)
Stalking, harassment and threats are a bit more than that, and confusing the two does a disservice to both - but more importantly, to all of us.
Yeah, but that only applies if the images shown are the same - which they aren't. (And there's probably a particularly poor overlap between geek girls who are interested in games and folks buying Cosmo or whatever.)
I wonder about routes of exposure. I was going to write about how my best friend (also female) first got me into gaming via D&D - and then it occurred to me that no, really my first exposure was when my dad introduced me to Collosal Cave Adventure (which was right then bring the entire CS department to a screeching halt) when I was five. My later vectors were my aforementioned SF geek best friend and my hacking buddies.
And the scantily clad fantasy babes used in a lot of advertisements are seriously offputting to a lot of women, especially teenagers.